PDA

View Full Version : We are saved for good works / we are saved because of good works



humbled
Jan 10th 2009, 09:37 PM
Just what it says. All the polls posted by ProjectPeter ... are they to please God FOR our salvation, or are they outpourings of fruit BECAUSE of our salvation?

Gregg
Jan 10th 2009, 10:05 PM
I believe that we cannot do good works for salvation. I also believe that God does not need us. So my good works have nothing to do with salvation or needs. I think that any good work that I do allows me to communicate and feel closer to God in this earthly life. I do think that my Father enjoys it when I help someone.

matthew7and1
Jan 10th 2009, 10:05 PM
I say "because of"
honestly, i just believe in being the bset person you can, and not doing it to seek reward.
so even without the biblical aspect, i think it should be "because i have been so blessed, i am able to share this or that or the next thing"
sort of like a pass it on deal

Butch5
Jan 10th 2009, 10:06 PM
The answer to your question is both.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 10th 2009, 10:37 PM
Just what it says. All the polls posted by ProjectPeter ... are they to please God FOR our salvation, or are they outpourings of fruit BECAUSE of our salvation?
------------------------------------------------------------------

For we are His workmanship,


created 'in Christ Jesus' unto good works,


which God hath before ordained that we should 'walk in them.'

Ephesians: 2: 10

__________________________________________________ _


There is not enough good works you can do to warrant salvation .. Christ has 'completed' it.. "it is Finished"...............

He did what we could never do or accomplish...

Living a pure and sinless life in the flesh...and being God's perfect Sacrafice.. the Lamb Slain before the foundation of the world... on that bloody tree..





The good works are a product of our walk 'in Him'... abiding in Him.. an extension of Him... He 'ordains' them and we walk in them thru the Power of the Holy Ghost.. and it even says God ordained them before a person is even Born Again... He 'knows' ahead of time... "before ordained"...


It has to do with God Himself... as His Son works thru His Children... His True Body.. the Body of Christ.. which is 'not divided'.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

tt1106
Jan 10th 2009, 10:59 PM
Grace by faith in order to do good works not because of.

ProjectPeter
Jan 11th 2009, 12:49 AM
Since not much of those biblical good works are not being done (they really aren't if we're honest) then what does that say about those "saved?" Hopefully folks will at least ponder that point.

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 02:48 AM
Since not much of those biblical good works are not being done (they really aren't if we're honest) then what does that say about those "saved?" Hopefully folks will at least ponder that point.

Excellent point!

shepherdsword
Jan 11th 2009, 09:11 AM
I thought about choosing "by good works" just because I knew nobody else would.:P.then I thought...what if Jesus showed me this poll on the day of Judgment?:eek:

:gulp:

tango
Jan 11th 2009, 01:13 PM
The Bible clearly says we are not saved by works (emphasis is mine)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Yukerboy
Jan 11th 2009, 03:39 PM
Let us not forget that no task is a fruit of the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

You have the fruits of the Spirit in contrast to the acts of the sinful nature in Galatians.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 04:43 PM
The Bible clearly says we are not saved by works (emphasis is mine)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


The Bible also says,

Romans 2:5-7 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
eternal life:

I think we to determine what works are being referenced.

tango
Jan 11th 2009, 04:48 PM
The Bible also says,

Romans 2:5-7 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
eternal life:

I think we to determine what works are being referenced.

Yes, Jesus said we would know people by their fruits. But the point is, the fruits come second once we are saved. We can't earn our way into heaven.

Ta-An
Jan 11th 2009, 05:31 PM
The commendment is to : Mk 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.

Action is Go and Do..... because you are saved

RogerW
Jan 11th 2009, 07:58 PM
Since not much of those biblical good works are not being done (they really aren't if we're honest) then what does that say about those "saved?" Hopefully folks will at least ponder that point.

If there is no evidence of doing any of those physical good works you mention, does it mean we are not saved? What about these signs that will follow them that believe? Are they to be physically interpreted or spiritually interpreted?

Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mr 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mr 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Blessings,
RW

Diggindeeper
Jan 11th 2009, 09:43 PM
Just what it says. All the polls posted by ProjectPeter ... are they to please God FOR our salvation, or are they outpourings of fruit BECAUSE of our salvation?

Whether a person claims to be a Christian or not, we SHOW our faith by our good works. We often do not have to tell someone, "I am a Christian", because by our very actions, they KNOW.

Just exactly like everyone else, they will know us by our fruit. The fact is, we are known by our works. But we are not saved to do good works. It is because we are saved, cleansed by the precious blood of our redeemer, that to do good, to think righteously, to be like HIM comes naturally. If we don't ACT as him, our concience torments us. To do good just follows automatically...if it is He who lives in us.

Titus 1:15-16
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Verse 16 strikes me with a profoundness. There are those who profess (or claim) they know him, but when it comes to doing good, they are reprobates! They have no clue how to do good.

But...
As Christians we should be a pattern for others to copy!

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Its a strange thing that happens once we are saved...
Before--we just do. Just do, whatever. But after we are washed in the precious blood of Christ Jesus, we find ourself thinking before we DO. We think, should I do this or do that? Would Jesus approve if I do this, or I do that? And we also stop ourself FROM doing certain things that never did bother us before!

Then on top of that, its been my experience that anything I do, I do as if doing it for the Lord. Doing it for "works" sake does not enter my mind. I guess what I'm trying to say is that doing good just comes more automatic for those who truly can say, "Its not I that live, but Christ, who lives in me."

We show our salvation (or faith) by our works.

James 2:17-26
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

ProjectPeter
Jan 11th 2009, 09:53 PM
If there is no evidence of doing any of those physical good works you mention, does it mean we are not saved? What about these signs that will follow them that believe? Are they to be physically interpreted or spiritually interpreted?

Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mr 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mr 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Blessings,
RW
How do you spiritually interpret fasting, praying, reading Scripture, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those sick and in prison... etc.?

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 10:05 PM
Yes, Jesus said we would know people by their fruits. But the point is, the fruits come second once we are saved. We can't earn our way into heaven.

Paul is not speaking of fruit, he is speaking of salvation. If you continue to read in Ephesians 2 you will see that the works Paul is speaking of in 2:8 are the works of the Law.


Ephesians 2:11-17 ( KJV ) 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.



14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.



Paul goes on to tell the Ephesians how it is that they are not saved by works. He tells them that Christ in the flesh abolished the "law of commandments contained in ordinances", this is the Mosaic law. So, in verse 8 Paul is actually saying that they were not saved by the works of the law. He is not saying there is nothing we do for salvation.

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 10:08 PM
If there is no evidence of doing any of those physical good works you mention, does it mean we are not saved? What about these signs that will follow them that believe? Are they to be physically interpreted or spiritually interpreted?

Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mr 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mr 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Blessings,
RW


Are these verses not speaking of the apstles?

reformedct
Jan 11th 2009, 11:00 PM
Paul is not speaking of fruit, he is speaking of salvation. If you continue to read in Ephesians 2 you will see that the works Paul is speaking of in 2:8 are the works of the Law.


Ephesians 2:11-17 ( KJV ) 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.



14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Paul goes on to tell the Ephesians how it is that they are not saved by works. He tells them that Christ in the flesh abolished the "law of commandments contained in ordinances", this is the Mosaic law. So, in verse 8 Paul is actually saying that they were not saved by the works of the law. He is not saying there is nothing we do for salvation.



So you believe that Jesus blood isnt enough to purchase our full salvation, that we must also make up the difference with our own good works?

reformedct
Jan 11th 2009, 11:01 PM
Paul is not speaking of fruit, he is speaking of salvation. If you continue to read in Ephesians 2 you will see that the works Paul is speaking of in 2:8 are the works of the Law.


Ephesians 2:11-17 ( KJV ) 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.



14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Paul goes on to tell the Ephesians how it is that they are not saved by works. He tells them that Christ in the flesh abolished the "law of commandments contained in ordinances", this is the Mosaic law. So, in verse 8 Paul is actually saying that they were not saved by the works of the law. He is not saying there is nothing we do for salvation.



So you believe that Jesus blood isnt enough to purchase our full salvation, that we must also make up the difference with our own good works? Because either Jesus paid it all or He didnt right?

So do you believe our salvation has been fully purchased, or that we must also pay some "dividends" with our own works?

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 11:32 PM
So you believe that Jesus blood isnt enough to purchase our full salvation, that we must also make up the difference with our own good works?

Reformed,

Instead of assuming what I do or do not believe, why not address the post? In the post I showed how Paul is speaking of the works of the Law, if you believe this is incorrect, please show how.

Did you read the post where I explained how Christ died for our sins? I'll post it again.

Jesus came and died as a ransom to free mankind from the bondage of sin.

Matthew 20:28 ( KJV ) 28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


1 Timothy 2:5-6 ( KJV ) 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ gave Himself a ransom for all, if Christ was the ransom, who was the kidnapper? Was it God? Did Christ come to redeem us from God? No. He came to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:7-8 ( KJV ) 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, the works that kept us in bondage, enslaved to sin and death.

Hebrews 2:14 ( KJV ) 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How did Jesus destroy the works of the devil? It was through his death, His death on the cross. Christ's death was the ransom, that freed mankind from the kidnapper. Our redemption (we are redeemed) through Christ's blood shed on the cross, given as a ransom to set free those who who believe. How did God do this?

Colossians 1:12-14 ( KJV ) 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

God through what Christ has done, delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of His Son. How was that done? Redemption through His blood, what is redemption through His blood? The forgiveness of sins.

Now let's look at the verses in question and see how God did this,


Colossians 2:13-15 ( KJV ) 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Paul says the Colossians have been quickened together with Christ, and their sins have been forgiven, how did God forgive their sins? By blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (the Law) that was against them, and nailing it to the cross. Paul tells us again how Christ did this, He spoiled, (the Greek word means to strip of power) principalities and powers, triumphing over them, He triumphed over the kingdom of darkness. Mankind was kidnapped, enslaved to the power of darkness and sin, Christ gave His life as a ransom, (He died for our sins) to set free those who would believe.



How did Christ purchase our full salvation?

Butch5
Jan 11th 2009, 11:37 PM
So you believe that Jesus blood isnt enough to purchase our full salvation, that we must also make up the difference with our own good works? Because either Jesus paid it all or He didnt right?

So do you believe our salvation has been fully purchased, or that we must also pay some "dividends" with our own works?

If you read the Scriptures you will find that Christ came to do the Father's will. He completed the work that God sent Him to do, He said on the cross, it is finished, what was finished? The work the Father sent Him to do. You will find that obedience to Christ is required in the gospel, you will also find that Jesus said, at the judgment, those who have done good will be raised to life and those who have done evil will be raised to damnation. If these works determine our ultimate destiny, how is it that they have nothing to do with salvation?

reformedct
Jan 11th 2009, 11:51 PM
Reformed,

Instead of assuming what I do or do not believe, why not address the post? In the post I showed how Paul is speaking of the works of the Law, if you believe this is incorrect, please show how.

Did you read the post where I explained how Christ died for our sins? I'll post it again.

Jesus came and died as a ransom to free mankind from the bondage of sin.

Matthew 20:28 ( KJV ) 28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


1 Timothy 2:5-6 ( KJV ) 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ gave Himself a ransom for all, if Christ was the ransom, who was the kidnapper? Was it God? Did Christ come to redeem us from God? No. He came to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:7-8 ( KJV ) 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, the works that kept us in bondage, enslaved to sin and death.

Hebrews 2:14 ( KJV ) 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How did Jesus destroy the works of the devil? It was through his death, His death on the cross. Christ's death was the ransom, that freed mankind from the kidnapper. Our redemption (we are redeemed) through Christ's blood shed on the cross, given as a ransom to set free those who who believe. How did God do this?

Colossians 1:12-14 ( KJV ) 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

God through what Christ has done, delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of His Son. How was that done? Redemption through His blood, what is redemption through His blood? The forgiveness of sins.

Now let's look at the verses in question and see how God did this,


Colossians 2:13-15 ( KJV ) 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Paul says the Colossians have been quickened together with Christ, and their sins have been forgiven, how did God forgive their sins? By blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (the Law) that was against them, and nailing it to the cross. Paul tells us again how Christ did this, He spoiled, (the Greek word means to strip of power) principalities and powers, triumphing over them, He triumphed over the kingdom of darkness. Mankind was kidnapped, enslaved to the power of darkness and sin, Christ gave His life as a ransom, (He died for our sins) to set free those who would believe.



How did Christ purchase our full salvation?

So, what happens if i am on my deathbed, repent and believe, then die, with no good work. What would happen to me? I go to hell?

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 12:45 AM
So, what happens if i am on my deathbed, repent and believe, then die, with no good work. What would happen to me? I go to hell?

If you think what I have posted is incorrect, please show me how.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 01:04 AM
If you think what I have posted is incorrect, please show me how.

By not answering my question you have answered

You, Butch 5, believe that if someone is on their deathbed, realizes they are a sinner, repents and comes to Christ, puts all of his faith in Jesus, then dies, he will go to hell. does that sound correct?


also, what happened to the thief on the cross? did he feed the poor, did he visit the sick? what good works did he have? what righteousness did he have? Is he in heaven?

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 01:11 AM
By not answering my question you have answered

You, Butch 5, believe that if someone is on their deathbed, realizes they are a sinner, repents and comes to Christ, puts all of his faith in Jesus, then dies, he will go to hell. does that sound correct?


also, what happened to the thief on the cross? did he feed the poor, did he visit the sick? what good works did he have? what righteousness did he have? Is he in heaven?
Let's just say that he finished life on earth exemplifying the crucified life... literally as well as spiritually. ;)

Butch did not say that death bed repentance has no merit nor that they were destined for an eternity in hell. What he asked of you, and still ask of you, was for you to show the error in what he actually did say. You did not do that but instead tossed out a "what if". What you did not do was actually answer the question and show where it is that he was actually in error. Lots of folks have opinions and not much Bible to back them. What Butch is asking you is to show him if he is wrong using the Scripture.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 01:23 AM
By not answering my question you have answered

You, Butch 5, believe that if someone is on their deathbed, realizes they are a sinner, repents and comes to Christ, puts all of his faith in Jesus, then dies, he will go to hell. does that sound correct?


also, what happened to the thief on the cross? did he feed the poor, did he visit the sick? what good works did he have? what righteousness did he have? Is he in heaven?

You are arguing against Jesus words not mine.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 01:29 AM
Let's just say that he finished life on earth exemplifying the crucified life... literally as well as spiritually. ;)

Butch did not say that death bed repentance has no merit nor that they were destined for an eternity in hell. What he asked of you, and still ask of you, was for you to show the error in what he actually did say. You did not do that but instead tossed out a "what if". What you did not do was actually answer the question and show where it is that he was actually in error. Lots of folks have opinions and not much Bible to back them. What Butch is asking you is to show him if he is wrong using the Scripture.


He is not wrong at all about Jesus paying the price for our sin and buying us back from sin, death, hell, and all that, but part of recieving Jesus is recieving eternal life as well.

Let me clarify what i meant by Jesus purchasing our full salvation. First of all, i dont mean Jesus literally bought the plan of salvation, because it is already Gods. Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9. Jesus paid the price for our sin and also defeated Satan, death, and the power of sin. However those in Christ are also forgiven of all their transgressions, and have peace with God.

I was arguing with the implication that after repenting and believing the gospel that YOU MUST feed the poor, visit the homeless, etc. We are called to do those things, but doing them is not what saves us, otherwise the thief on the cross went to hell no? He did not feed the poor, he did not visit the sick, and he did not feed the hungry. If these specific things are indeed necessary, then how in the world could he be in paradise?

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 01:31 AM
Let's just say that he finished life on earth exemplifying the crucified life... literally as well as spiritually. ;)

Butch did not say that death bed repentance has no merit nor that they were destined for an eternity in hell. What he asked of you, and still ask of you, was for you to show the error in what he actually did say. You did not do that but instead tossed out a "what if". What you did not do was actually answer the question and show where it is that he was actually in error. Lots of folks have opinions and not much Bible to back them. What Butch is asking you is to show him if he is wrong using the Scripture.


He is not wrong at all about Jesus paying the price for our sin and buying us back from sin, death, hell, and all that, but part of recieving Jesus is recieving eternal life as well.

Let me clarify what i meant by Jesus purchasing our full salvation. First of all, i dont mean Jesus literally bought the plan of salvation, because it is already Gods. Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9. Jesus paid the price for our sin and also defeated Satan, death, and the power of sin. However those in Christ are also forgiven of all their transgressions, and have peace with God, and are given eternal life. It is a free gift of righteousness through one mans obedience

I was arguing with the implication that after repenting and believing the gospel that YOU MUST feed the poor, visit the homeless, etc. We are called to do those things, but doing them is not what saves us, otherwise the thief on the cross went to hell no? He did not feed the poor, he did not visit the sick, and he did not feed the hungry. If these specific things are indeed necessary, then how in the world could he be in paradise?

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 01:38 AM
You are arguing against Jesus words not mine.


These are Jesus words to a thief with not one good work to His name:

Today you shall be with me in paradise.


I am arguing for Jesus words to everyone who repents and truly believes: Today you will be with Him in Paradise. Exactly what Jesus said.

Jesus told a man with no good works that he is going to Paradise.

I believe Jesus words, but it seems that you dont believe His words concerning the thief?

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 01:49 AM
He is not wrong at all about Jesus paying the price for our sin and buying us back from sin, death, hell, and all that, but part of recieving Jesus is recieving eternal life as well.

Let me clarify what i meant by Jesus purchasing our full salvation. First of all, i dont mean Jesus literally bought the plan of salvation, because it is already Gods. Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9. Jesus paid the price for our sin and also defeated Satan, death, and the power of sin. However those in Christ are also forgiven of all their transgressions, and have peace with God.

I was arguing with the implication that after repenting and believing the gospel that YOU MUST feed the poor, visit the homeless, etc. We are called to do those things, but doing them is not what saves us, otherwise the thief on the cross went to hell no? He did not feed the poor, he did not visit the sick, and he did not feed the hungry. If these specific things are indeed necessary, then how in the world could he be in paradise?
But what does it mean if one doesn't do those things called for?

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 01:50 AM
He is not wrong at all about Jesus paying the price for our sin and buying us back from sin, death, hell, and all that, but part of recieving Jesus is recieving eternal life as well.

Let me clarify what i meant by Jesus purchasing our full salvation. First of all, i dont mean Jesus literally bought the plan of salvation, because it is already Gods. Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9. Jesus paid the price for our sin and also defeated Satan, death, and the power of sin. However those in Christ are also forgiven of all their transgressions, and have peace with God.

I was arguing with the implication that after repenting and believing the gospel that YOU MUST feed the poor, visit the homeless, etc. We are called to do those things, but doing them is not what saves us, otherwise the thief on the cross went to hell no? He did not feed the poor, he did not visit the sick, and he did not feed the hungry. If these specific things are indeed necessary, then how in the world could he be in paradise?


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In the above passage, Jesus said the righteous were those who visited the poor and sick, fed the hungry, clothed the naked, and gave to drink, He said they will go into eternal life. He also said, those who do not do these things, will go into everlasting fire. It seems clear that these acts have a direct bearing on where we will spend eternity, how then can they not be salvific?

Paul also said the same thing,
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Paul says in no uncertain terms that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life, He says that God will judge every man according to his deeds. If God is going to judge everyone according to their deeds, and Paul say that these deeds lead to eternal life for those who do good, and lead to indignation and wrath to those who do evil, how can they not be salvific?

As far as the thief is concerned, God will not condemn him, just because he had no opportunity to do good works, you on the other hand, have been given the opportunity to do good works.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 01:53 AM
These are Jesus words to a thief with not one good work to His name:

Today you shall be with me in paradise.


I am arguing for Jesus words to everyone who repents and truly believes: Today you will be with Him in Paradise. Exactly what Jesus said.

Jesus told a man with no good works that he is going to Paradise.

I believe Jesus words, but it seems that you dont believe His words concerning the thief?

The thief had no opportunity to do good works, you do. Why do you take a single verse of Scripture and try to deny the teachings of Christ?

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:00 AM
But what does it mean if one doesn't do those things called for?

first of all, my interpretation of those parables is simply that true disciples show love for God by loving others, especially thier family in Christ.

Its not a matter of specific acts, it is a matter of the heart. If i help my brother in Christ fix his car so he doesnt have to pay for it, i am fulfilling that command. It is my interpretation taht all the works listed in the parable are an example of how true Christians show evidence of their identity in and with Christ.

Just because someone is not doing one of those specific things doesnt mean they are not saved. The issue is a heart issue, not a checklist of works that we must cross off.

That being said, all those works listed are definetly things that we are called to do, but it is not exhastive. If i injure myself and end up paralyzed in a hospital eating off an IV im not going to be visiting someone in jail. Is God gonna say, well, you had faith in my Son, but unfortunately you did not check off the "jail visit" box. Damnation! lol


So, what does it say if a person doesnt do those things? First of all, it deosnt mean they are not saved because they are not doing those specific things. because we have an example of the thief eho did not do these things yet is in heaven. So to say we must do these for salvation would be the wrong interpretation.

now, someone who is born again will indeed have some sort of good deeds intheir life ass evidence of their new nature. It may be exactly the same things a listed,or it may be a slight variation, for example ministering to school drop-outs or drug addicts for Christ

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:06 AM
The thief had no opportunity to do good works, you do. Why do you take a single verse of Scripture and try to deny the teachings of Christ?

lol im not denying the teachings of Christ. We are saved to do good works. But our good works do not save.

If it is true in one case how is it not true in another? Does God have a double standard? im not denying Christs teachings, your interpretation is off. We are saved by grace thru faith. Thats why the thief is in heaven. Why are you denying that the thief was saved by faith alone?

i dont deny we must do works, im denying that the works are what saves us. we are saved by grace thru faith. God doesnt have two different plans of salvation. He doesnt say, your saved by faith and works, unless you die really fast, then its ok. No, its the same for EVERYBODY. Saved by grace thru faith. That true faith produces works of love, but the works of love do not save, which is why the thief gets to go to heaven with no works. Why are you denying we can go to heaven with no works when Jesus told the thief he could?

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 02:28 AM
lol im not denying the teachings of Christ. We are saved to do good works. But our good works do not save.

If it is true in one case how is it not true in another? Does God have a double standard? im not denying Christs teachings, your interpretation is off. We are saved by grace thru faith. Thats why the thief is in heaven. Why are you denying that the thief was saved by faith alone?

i dont deny we must do works, im denying that the works are what saves us. we are saved by grace thru faith. God doesnt have two different plans of salvation. He doesnt say, your saved by faith and works, unless you die really fast, then its ok. No, its the same for EVERYBODY. Saved by grace thru faith. That true faith produces works of love, but the works of love do not save, which is why the thief gets to go to heaven with no works. Why are you denying we can go to heaven with no works when Jesus told the thief he could?

If the works have not bearing on salvation then please show how my post is incorrect.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:36 AM
If the works have not bearing on salvation then please show how my post is incorrect.



lol the verses you said are legit but your interpretation is wrong.

Will we be judged by our works? Yes, definetly, and we will be rewarded
Are works a part of salvation? Yes, we are saved by grace to do the works prepared for us

Is it doing those works that save us? no.

It is very simple. We get saved. Then we do works. By the time we are doing works, we are already saved.

Those parables are examples of a true disciples evidence of love. They are not exclusive or limited. If i sacrifice my day off to help my brother in Christ paint his new house i am fulfilling my command of love.

Your interpretation is that WE MUST DO THESE SPECIFIC THINGS LISTED.

but then the thief on the cross comes along and throws your interpretation out the window. He did none of those things and went to heaven. THEREFORE when Jesus said those things He was talking about something deeper than just those 4 numbered acts. He was talking about the principle of love not the specific manifestation of love


If we must feed the poor to be saved, the thief would be in hell no? but he is in heaven, so it is indeed possible to go to heaven without feeding the poor. unless the Bible is lying?

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:48 AM
first of all, my interpretation of those parables is simply that true disciples show love for God by loving others, especially thier family in Christ.

Its not a matter of specific acts, it is a matter of the heart. If i help my brother in Christ fix his car so he doesnt have to pay for it, i am fulfilling that command. It is my interpretation taht all the works listed in the parable are an example of how true Christians show evidence of their identity in and with Christ.

Just because someone is not doing one of those specific things doesnt mean they are not saved. The issue is a heart issue, not a checklist of works that we must cross off.

That being said, all those works listed are definetly things that we are called to do, but it is not exhastive. If i injure myself and end up paralyzed in a hospital eating off an IV im not going to be visiting someone in jail. Is God gonna say, well, you had faith in my Son, but unfortunately you did not check off the "jail visit" box. Damnation! lol


So, what does it say if a person doesnt do those things? First of all, it deosnt mean they are not saved because they are not doing those specific things. because we have an example of the thief eho did not do these things yet is in heaven. So to say we must do these for salvation would be the wrong interpretation.

now, someone who is born again will indeed have some sort of good deeds intheir life ass evidence of their new nature. It may be exactly the same things a listed,or it may be a slight variation, for example ministering to school drop-outs or drug addicts for ChristWhat if they don't have good deeds in their life?

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 02:56 AM
Heidelberg Catechism Question & Answer 62

Q. But why can our good works not be our righteousness before God, or at least a part of it?
A. Because the righteousness which can stand before God's judgment must be absolutely perfect and in complete agreement with the law of God,[1] whereas even our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin.[2]

[1] Deut. 27:26; Gal. 3:10. [2] Is. 64:6.
If even the smallest part of our salvation was based on our own works, than none of us would be able to be saved. Even the "best" good works by our corrupt standards are still sinful before God.

By saying that good works are necessary for us to be saved, the power of God is also underplayed. You are taking the focus off of God and placing it on man, saying that man must also contribute to his own salvation, leaving God incapable of saving him if he chooses not to do good works.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 02:58 AM
If even the smallest part of our salvation was based on our own works, than none of us would be able to be saved. Even the "best" good works by our corrupt standards are still sinful before God.

By saying that good works are necessary for us to be saved, the power of God is also underplayed. You are taking the focus off of God and placing it on man, saying that man must also contribute to his own salvation, leaving God incapable of saving him if he chooses not to do good works.
So... a Christian, regardless of the fact that Scripture says that a disciple of Christ is created for good deeds... those deeds aren't necessary for a Christian. So... if you want to then you can... don't mean nothing. If you don't won't to then don't... don't mean nothing. That's what you think Christianity is about?

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 02:58 AM
What if they don't have good deeds in their life?

True good works are a direct response for being grateful for the salvation that you have been given. They don't save you, but instead prove whether or not you do have a saving faith.

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 03:04 AM
So... a Christian, regardless of the fact that Scripture says that a disciple of Christ is created for good deeds... those deeds aren't necessary for a Christian. So... if you want to then you can... don't mean nothing. If you don't won't to then don't... don't mean nothing. That's what you think Christianity is about?

Not necessary... for justification? No.
For sanctification? Yes.

Here's what the Belgic Confession says (and what I believe) about sanctification:


Article 24: The Sanctification of Sinners

We believe that this true faith, produced in man by the hearing of God's Word and by the work of the Holy Spirit, regenerates him and makes him a "new man,"^57 causing him to live the "new life"^58 and freeing him from the slavery of sin. Therefore, far from making people cold toward living in a pious and holy way, this justifying faith, quite to the contrary, so works within them that apart from it they will never do a thing out of love for God but only out of love for themselves and fear of being condemned.
So then, it is impossible for this holy faith to be unfruitful in a human being, seeing that we do not speak of an empty faith but of what Scripture calls "faith working through love,"^59 which leads a man to do by himself the works that God has commanded in his Word.
These works, proceeding from the good root of faith, are good and acceptable to God, since they are all sanctified by his grace. Yet they do not count toward our justification-- for by faith in Christ we are justified, even before we do good works. Otherwise they could not be good, any more than the fruit of a tree could be good if the tree is not good in the first place.
So then, we do good works, but nor for merit-- for what would we merit? Rather, we are indebted to God for the good works we do, and not he to us, since it is he who "works in us both to will and do according to his good pleasure" ^60-- thus keeping in mind what is written: "When you have done all that is commanded you, then you shall say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have done what it was our duty to do.' "^61
Yet we do not wish to deny that God rewards good works-- but it is by his grace that he crowns his gifts.
Moreover, although we do good works we do not base our salvation on them; for we cannot do any work that is not defiled by our flesh and also worthy of punishment. And even if we could point to one, memory of a single sin is enough for God to reject that work.
So we would always be in doubt, tossed back and forth without any certainty, and our poor consciences would be tormented constantly if they did not rest on the merit of the suffering and death of our Savior.

^57 2 Cor. 5:17 ^58 Rom. 6:4 ^59 Gal. 5:6 ^60 Phil. 2:13 ^61 Luke 17:10

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 03:06 AM
What if they don't have good deeds in their life?

if someone has been a Christian for a period of time and has NO good works they need to examine themselves. We are new creations and if the Spirit of God is in them they would have Something to show for it.

However what about a person who just accepted Christ? What if they dont have good deeds in their life? do we run up to the alter all and say: Hey all you people, until you feed the poor, visit those in prison, blah blah blah, you are not saved! That would be rude and silly.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 03:08 AM
Reformed---lol the verses you said are legit but your interpretation is wrong.

Please show how.


Reformed---Will we be judged by our works? Yes, definetly, and we will be rewarded
Are works a part of salvation? Yes, we are saved by grace to do the works prepared for us

Is it doing those works that save us? no.


Then please explain why those who do not do them, go into everlasting fire.


Reformed---It is very simple. We get saved. Then we do works. By the time we are doing works, we are already saved.

Initially saved, placed in a relationship with Christ. We are not ultimately saved until the judgment.


Reformed---Those parables are examples of a true disciples evidence of love. They are not exclusive or limited. If i sacrifice my day off to help my brother in Christ paint his new house i am fulfilling my command of love.

They are examples of Christians love, they are also speaking of hte judgment to come.


Reformed---Your interpretation is that WE MUST DO THESE SPECIFIC THINGS LISTED.

Please show me where I listed specific things we must do. All I did was post Scripture, the list came from Jesus.


Reformed---but then the thief on the cross comes along and throws your interpretation out the window. He did none of those things and went to heaven. THEREFORE when Jesus said those things He was talking about something deeper than just those 4 numbered acts. He was talking about the principle of love not the specific manifestation of love


Not so, are you interpreting Jesus statements in Matthew based on what Jesus said to the thief on the cross?

The thief went to paradise not heaven.


Reformed---If we must feed the poor to be saved, the thief would be in hell no? but he is in heaven, so it is indeed possible to go to heaven without feeding the poor. unless the Bible is lying?


Possible, yes, if you are not given the chance to perform good works.

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 03:13 AM
The thief went to paradise not heaven.

Is there a difference? I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but there can only be two places that you go after you die: heaven or hell. Certainly this means heaven. Jesus was not referring to a place titled "paradise", but was describing heaven for the thief, who wouldn't have otherwise have known. I don't see how Jesus would call hell "paradise".

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 03:16 AM
jrick---if even the smallest part of our salvation was based on our own works, than none of us would be able to be saved. Even the "best" good works by our corrupt standards are still sinful before God.




Luke 1:5-6 ( KJV ) 5There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.



jrick---By saying that good works are necessary for us to be saved, the power of God is also underplayed. You are taking the focus off of God and placing it on man, saying that man must also contribute to his own salvation, leaving God incapable of saving him if he chooses not to do good works.

Please explain to me why those who do good in Mattew 25 go to eternal life and those who do evil go to eternal fire.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 03:19 AM
Is there a difference? I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but there can only be two places that you go after you die: heaven or hell. Certainly this means heaven. Jesus was not referring to a place titled "paradise", but was describing heaven for the thief, who wouldn't have otherwise have known. I don't see how Jesus would call hell "paradise".

I don't want to derail this thread so I will give a short answer, if you would like to discuss this we can in another thread. Yes, there is a difference. Paradise is a description, it is a description of Abraham's bossom in Jesus' parable of the Lazarus and the rich man.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 03:21 AM
if someone has been a Christian for a period of time and has NO good works they need to examine themselves. We are new creations and if the Spirit of God is in them they would have Something to show for it.

However what about a person who just accepted Christ? What if they dont have good deeds in their life? do we run up to the alter all and say: Hey all you people, until you feed the poor, visit those in prison, blah blah blah, you are not saved! That would be rude and silly.Would it be silly to tell them that they have to love Him more than their mom, dad, brother, sister, husband, kids and even themselves? Rude to tell them that they need to give up everything and follow Him?

Marc B
Jan 12th 2009, 03:29 AM
The thief on the cross signifies salvation through faith in the Messiah upon repentance regardless of your past. Judgement by works done good and bad are shown in the passages already mentioned. Matthew 7:15-23 expands on this as well with self proclaimed "christians" claiming to do good works and their fate. These would seem to fit the profile of some evangelists. Paying lip service and doing religious things but ignoring God's Commandments, where the term Lawlessness comes from. It boils down to God preferring a sincere sinner trying to overcome sin and doing good from the heart without expecting anything in return vs a self righteous hypocrite who does good deeds in front of others for self aggrandisement.

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 03:31 AM
Luke 1:5-6 ( KJV ) 5There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Yep. Before God, they were looked at as blameless, because they had already been justified. Because of justification, our good works before God are blameless. But these good works can not be used to save us, because God will only look at them as blameless if we have already been justified.


Please explain to me why those who do good in Mattew 25 go to eternal life and those who do evil go to eternal fire.

These parables are describing the Kingdom of Heaven. The first one refers to being prepared for the day of judgment. It is a warning to everyone who is not already saved that the final hour is coming quickly.

The second parable shows a person with a dead faith. He did not perform good works because he wasn't "saved".

Starting at verse 31, these good works were being used to emphasize that faith without works is dead. You can not be saved and be ungrateful for your salvation at the same time.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 03:43 AM
jrick---Yep. Before God, they were looked at as blameless, because they had already been justified. Because of justification, our good works before God are blameless. But these good works can not be used to save us, because God will only look at them as blameless if we have already been justified.
How were they justified?



jrick---These parables are describing the Kingdom of Heaven. The first one refers to being prepared for the day of judgment. It is a warning to everyone who is not already saved that the final hour is coming quickly.

The second parable shows a person with a dead faith. He did not perform good works because he wasn't "saved".

Starting at verse 31, these good works were being used to emphasize that faith without works is dead. You can not be saved and be ungrateful for your salvation at the same time.


Jesus didn't say anything about faith, He said those who did those things go into eternal life, and those who did not, go into eternal fire. Their destination is based on what they did, how then are the works not salvific?

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 03:46 AM
I don't want to derail this thread so I will give a short answer, if you would like to discuss this we can in another thread. Yes, there is a difference. Paradise is a description, it is a description of Abraham's bossom in Jesus' parable of the Lazarus and the rich man.


Well then Paradise sounds like a good place to me. If all I get to do is go to Paradise it sounds like a good place to be lol

As i said before you are misinterpreting. You are just picking your verses that you want to prove your point. You can prove anything if you do that. I can make someone pluck their eye out and show them a verse. You dont understand the meaning of the passage beyond the surface. If the thief went to Paradise(which you say is not heaven but according to all the scholars in my ESV Study Bible say is the same as heaven)

that means that the specific acts of feeding the poor are not grounds of salvation. plain as that. you dont want to accept it because you refuse to admit that you are possibly wrong in your interpretation

If the thief had no works and went to heaven, and we have to have works, then God is judging with partiality. He is changing how we are graded based upon how long we live or this or that. But the Bible says God shows no partiality. His standards are the same for all.

And as i said before, all of the scholars( who vary in beliefs) in my ESV say Paradise is a metaphor for heaven. Even those who disagree say that Abrahams Bosom or Paradise, if not heaven, was a temporary holding place for the righteous until Christ ascended into heaven. At the end of the day, the thief ends up in heaven.

Im not saying Jesus didnt make a list. Im saying the things listed was not the main point of the parable. The point is that if you belong to Christ you show it. He could have listed a number of things.

My issue is not with Jesus words, but with your interpretation of His parable.

Jesus said pluck out your eye but without proper interpretation people end up maiming themselves.

Since the thief did not do anything on that list and went to heaven, then an interpretation that says you must do those things to go to heaven is wrong, because any interpretation that is not always right for everyone is wrong. God doesnt have different scales for each person. Everyone is judged the same. if the thief got thru on faith, so will I and everyone else who has true faith.

If we must do the list then the thief cannot go to heaven. yet He did. So either your interpretation is wrong, or the correct interpretation is that faith is what saves us but that faith produces works. The works do not save they are evidence of the faith. This interpretation encompasses the thief, AND the parable of the sheep. The sheep proved to be sheep by their works. Yours only includes the parable of the sheep, then you add stuff like, well the thief didnt have enought time to do the works but you do. That would be uneven scales. That means God judged him one way but will judge me a different way.

Also my study Bible which was worked on by 95 scholars say Paradise is a metaphor for heaven.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 04:01 AM
Would it be silly to tell them that they have to love Him more than their mom, dad, brother, sister, husband, kids and even themselves? Rude to tell them that they need to give up everything and follow Him?

No. But it would be silly to tell them that until they suffer persecution, get rejected by family and etc, they are not saved. all those things is not what saves us. Picking up our cross, hating our father and mother( which in context is not as harsh as it sounds, it simply means place Christ above all else) these are results of our repentance and faith.

If we have faith we maybe persecuted. However its not like we are not saved until we get persecuted, or until our parents hate us. Those are results of following Christ not grounds for salvation. If you come to Christ you give Him your life. Denying yourself is simply letting Him call the shots and not yourself. All of that is an automatic part of repentance and faith. those people who believe are justified at the point of repenting and truly believing.

All those refreences of denying self and picking up your cross, etc

all that means is place Christ first, and giving a heads up on what happens because of it. If christ is first, we will listen to Him not ourselves (deny ourselves) If Christ is first, we will endure persecution for His names sake. If Christ is first, we will endure thru family conflicts because of our faith. However those acts are not what saves us. I might believe in Jesus and then everyone in my house gets saved too. I might preach my whole life without being physically persecuted. Does that mean i didnt take up my cross and now im not saved? lol no

remember the tax collector who beat his chest? did he go do some good things to be justified? or was he justified when he fell down before God? Did the prostitute have her sins forgiven after she fed some hungry people or when she wiped Jesus feet with her tears? We are forgiven at the point of repentance and faith. If we are forgiven, we are heaven bound. How can we be forgiven and go to hell at the same time?

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 04:01 AM
How were they justified?

Through faith.



Jesus didn't say anything about faith, He said those who did those things go into eternal life, and those who did not, go into eternal fire. Their destination is based on what they did, how then are the works not salvific?

If you are given the chance to "do the list", and then you do not, then you need to re-evaluate your faith. True, saving faith will be followed with good works. They are not destined to heaven or hell because of their actions, but because of their faith, which should lead to works.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 04:01 AM
Well then Paradise sounds like a good place to me. If all I get to do is go to Paradise it sounds like a good place to be lol

As i said before you are misinterpreting. You are just picking your verses that you want to prove your point. You can prove anything if you do that. I can make someone pluck their eye out and show them a verse. You dont understand the meaning of the passage beyond the surface. If the thief went to Paradise(which you say is not heaven but according to all the scholars in my ESV Study Bible say is the same as heaven)

that means that the specific acts of feeding the poor are not grounds of salvation. plain as that. you dont want to accept it because you refuse to admit that you are possibly wrong in your interpretation

If the thief had no works and went to heaven, and we have to have works, then God is judging with partiality. He is changing how we are graded based upon how long we live or this or that. But the Bible says God shows no partiality. His standards are the same for all.

And as i said before, all of the scholars( who vary in beliefs) in my ESV say Paradise is a metaphor for heaven. Even those who disagree say that Abrahams Bosom or Paradise, if not heaven, was a temporary holding place for the righteous until Christ ascended into heaven. At the end of the day, the thief ends up in heaven.

Im not saying Jesus didnt make a list. Im saying the things listed was not the main point of the parable. The point is that if you belong to Christ you show it. He could have listed a number of things.

My issue is not with Jesus words, but with your interpretation of His parable.

Jesus said pluck out your eye but without proper interpretation people end up maiming themselves.

Since the thief did not do anything on that list and went to heaven, then an interpretation that says you must do those things to go to heaven is wrong, because any interpretation that is not always right for everyone is wrong. God doesnt have different scales for each person. Everyone is judged the same. if the thief got thru on faith, so will I and everyone else who has true faith.

If we must do the list then the thief cannot go to heaven. yet He did. So either your interpretation is wrong, or the correct interpretation is that faith is what saves us but that faith produces works. The works do not save they are evidence of the faith. This interpretation encompasses the thief, AND the parable of the sheep. The sheep proved to be sheep by their works. Yours only includes the parable of the sheep, then you add stuff like, well the thief didnt have enought time to do the works but you do. That would be uneven scales. That means God judged him one way but will judge me a different way.

Also my study Bible which was worked on by 95 scholars say Paradise is a metaphor for heaven.

Well my friend, since you are convince that my interpretation is incorrect, let me ask you, for the fourth time, to show how it is incorrect. You continue to tell me that my interpretation is wrong yet you have not given the first bit of evidence to support you claim. Your interpretation of the incident of the thief is not proof that my interpretation of the Ephesians passage is incorrect.

As for your 95 Scholars, ask them to show you a verse of Scripture that says we go to heaven when we die.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 04:04 AM
Through faith.




If you are given the chance to "do the list", and then you do not, then you need to re-evaluate your faith. True, saving faith will be followed with good works. They are not destined to heaven or hell because of their actions, but because of their faith, which should lead to works.

Faith will be followed by good works, however, Jesus was not speaking of faith, He was speaking of the judgment and He said those who did not do the works go into everlasting fire, those who do to eternal life, how are the works not salvific>

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 04:07 AM
No. But it would be silly to tell them that until they suffer persecution, get rejected by family and etc, they are not saved. all those things is not what saves us. Picking up our cross, hating our father and mother( which in context is not as harsh as it sounds, it simply means place Christ above all else) these are results of our repentance and faith.

If we have faith we maybe persecuted. However its not like we are not saved until we get persecuted, or until our parents hate us. Those are results of following Christ not grounds for salvation. If you come to Christ you give Him your life. Denying yourself is simply letting Him call the shots and not yourself. All of that is an automatic part of repentance and faith. those people who believe are justified at the point of repenting and truly believing.

All those refreences of denying self and picking up your cross, etc

all that means is place Christ first, and giving a heads up on what happens because of it. If christ is first, we will listen to Him not ourselves (deny ourselves) If Christ is first, we will endure persecution for His names sake. If Christ is first, we will endure thru family conflicts because of our faith. However those acts are not what saves us. I might believe in Jesus and then everyone in my house gets saved too. I might preach my whole life without being physically persecuted. Does that mean i didnt take up my cross and now im not saved? lol no

remember the tax collector who beat his chest? did he go do some good things to be justified? or was he justified when he fell down before God? Did the prostitute have her sins forgiven after she fed some hungry people or when she wiped Jesus feet with her tears? We are forgiven at the point of repentance and faith. If we are forgiven, we are heaven bound. How can we be forgiven and go to hell at the same time?
You guys are the ones that are going on about it being "works for salvation." Here is a challenge to you and all your buddies that are making that the big issue here. Show me the post where I said... How many or how much do you... and then said if you don't then you aren't saved. I'm not a betting man but I'd wager the farm that you won't find that. ;)

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 04:15 AM
Faith will be followed by good works, however, Jesus was not speaking of faith, He was speaking of the judgment and He said those who did not do the works go into everlasting fire, those who do to eternal life, how are the works not salvific>

Jesus was indeed speaking of faith in the four preceding parables. Especially in the first (Matthew 24:32), where Jesus showed that works must follow faith.

Context makes all the difference. ;)

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 04:22 AM
Jesus was indeed speaking of faith in the four preceding parables. Especially in the first (Matthew 24:32), where Jesus showed that works must follow faith.

Context makes all the difference. ;)

I am speakiing of the judgment in Matthew 25.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 04:25 AM
Well my friend, since you are convince that my interpretation is incorrect, let me ask you, for the fourth time, to show how it is incorrect. You continue to tell me that my interpretation is wrong yet you have not given the first bit of evidence to support you claim. Your interpretation of the incident of the thief is not proof that my interpretation of the Ephesians passage is incorrect.

As for your 95 Scholars, ask them to show you a verse of Scripture that says we go to heaven when we die.

i already told you. IF we are required to have works, the thief is not justified. You wont listen. The hole in your theology is right in your face but you want to play this show me game. You hold on to your parable interpretation which is not consistent with the thief scene. Is an inconsistent interpretation accurate?

In Scripture, Jesus told a man, who did not feed the poor, that he will be with Him in Paradise. Therefore, we dont have to feed the poor to get to Paradise. I dont know what else you want? Are there two ways to heaven? or perhaps your interpretation has fused faith/works wrongly.

I do not deny that works are part of the salvific process. I do deny that the works are necessary to be in right standing. Why? The thief had no works and went to Paradise WITH JESUS. I have already told you again and again but you still havent given a consistent explanation for the thief besides: "well he didnt have time so its different for him."

Even if you agree that Paradise is not heaven, you must agree that those in Paradise eventually go to heaven. How the heck could you go to Paradise and then go to hell? lol Jesus was there with him. you will be WITH ME in Paradise. whatever Paradise was Jesus was there too. How can someone with no works go to be with Jesus? because works are not the grounds of right standing. therefore, even though faith produces works like feeding the poor, those works dont give us right standing, they testify to our faith, which shows us to be indeed jsutified.

But i see you will not let go of the theology you are holding to no matter what. One of the wasy i learn is by always being open to the fact that maybe i am wrong. It doesnt seem that you hold that same view of your own understanding



At the end of the day, your interpretation says the thief will go to hell since he did not do that list of things. However what does Jesus say? Youw ill be WITH ME in PARADISE. Did he do the list? no.


Your interpretation is, if you dont do this list you go to hell, even though you have A CLEAR example of someone who has not done that list and is promised to be with Jesus. Instead of reviewing your theology, you are being stubborn and inconsistent imo

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 04:37 AM
I am speakiing of the judgment in Matthew 25.

But again, you are taking this passage out of context trying to make it say something that it doesn't. Scripture is it's own interpreter, so how do you interpret this parable with these passages?

Romans 3:24 (WEB)
being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;


Romans 4:1-8 (WEB)
4:1 What then will we say that Abraham, our forefather, has found according to the flesh? 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 4:5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 4:6 Even as David also pronounces blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works, 4:7 “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 4:8 Blessed is the man whom the Lord will by no means charge with sin.”


James 2:20 (WEB)
But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?


In the context of this parable, and in light of these passages, I believe that the Bible is very clear that works do not save. Instead, they are the fruits of the saved.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 04:46 AM
i already told you. IF we are required to have works, the thief is not justified. You wont listen. The hole in your theology is right in your face but you want to play this show me game. You hold on to your parable interpretation which is not consistent with the thief scene. Is an inconsistent interpretation accurate?

In Scripture, Jesus told a man, who did not feed the poor, that he will be with Him in Paradise. Therefore, we dont have to feed the poor to get to Paradise. I dont know what else you want? Are there two ways to heaven? or perhaps your interpretation has fused faith/works wrongly.

I do not deny that works are part of the salvific process. I do deny that the works are necessary to be in right standing. Why? The thief had no works and went to Paradise WITH JESUS. I have already told you again and again but you still havent given a consistent explanation for the thief besides: "well he didnt have time so its different for him."

Even if you agree that Paradise is not heaven, you must agree that those in Paradise eventually go to heaven. How the heck could you go to Paradise and then go to hell? lol Jesus was there with him. you will be WITH ME in Paradise. whatever Paradise was Jesus was there too. How can someone with no works go to be with Jesus? because works are not the grounds of right standing. therefore, even though faith produces works like feeding the poor, those works dont give us right standing, they testify to our faith, which shows us to be indeed jsutified.

But i see you will not let go of the theology you are holding to no matter what. One of the wasy i learn is by always being open to the fact that maybe i am wrong. It doesnt seem that you hold that same view of your own understanding



At the end of the day, your interpretation says the thief will go to hell since he did not do that list of things. However what does Jesus say? Youw ill be WITH ME in PARADISE. Did he do the list? no.


Your interpretation is, if you dont do this list you go to hell, even though you have A CLEAR example of someone who has not done that list and is promised to be with Jesus. Instead of reviewing your theology, you are being stubborn and inconsistent imo


Well, it is obvious that you cannot show how my interpretation of the Ephesians passage is wrong. I think if you could have, you would have done so by now. It is a fallacy to think that your interpretation of one verse of Scripture negates whole passages. You have taken one verse that gives no information about what was happening and used it to negate entire passages of teaching from both Paul and Jesus. You have claimed that we are saved faith alone, yet there is not is not a single verse of Scripture that states we are saved by faith alone, on the contrary we do have Scripture that states we are not saved by faith alone. You claim you are willing to admit when you are wrong, yet in all of the threads where many people have posted and shown you things that were wrong, I don't recall you changing your mind on anything. I have seen quite a few posts where people presented you with information and you did not respond to the post. The problem is that you assume you are correct and then argue from that point. You assume that if God saves people different ways, he is a respecter of persons, yet you have not shown how this would be the case. You put God's salvation under your conditions, if God does something a different way you say He can't do it.

And how about a verse that says we go to heaven when we die.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 04:53 AM
But again, you are taking this passage out of context trying to make it say something that it doesn't. Scripture is it's own interpreter, so how do you interpret this parable with these passages?

Romans 3:24 (WEB)
being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;


Romans 4:1-8 (WEB)
4:1 What then will we say that Abraham, our forefather, has found according to the flesh? 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 4:5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 4:6 Even as David also pronounces blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works, 4:7 “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 4:8 Blessed is the man whom the Lord will by no means charge with sin.”


James 2:20 (WEB)
But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?


In the context of this parable, and in light of these passages, I believe that the Bible is very clear that works do not save. Instead, they are the fruits of the saved.

What is the redemption that is in Jesus Christ?


Romans 4:1-8, Go back and read Romans 3 and you will see that Paul has been contrasting faith and the works of the Law. Then He says, what shall we say, concerning Abraham. Everything Paul says in chapter 4 about Abraham is based on the contrast of faith and works of the Law that he spoke of in chapter 3. So, when Paul says in chapter 4 not of works, he means not of works of the law.

Faith without works is dead, seems clear to me that James is saying, without works you aren't saved.

Now back to the parable, the context of the parable is the judgment.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 05:12 AM
Well, it is obvious that you cannot show how my interpretation of the Ephesians passage is wrong. I think if you could have, you would have done so by now. It is a fallacy to think that your interpretation of one verse of Scripture negates whole passages. You have taken one verse that gives no information about what was happening and used it to negate entire passages of teaching from both Paul and Jesus. You have claimed that we are saved faith alone, yet there is not is not a single verse of Scripture that states we are saved by faith alone, on the contrary we do have Scripture that states we are not saved by faith alone. You claim you are willing to admit when you are wrong, yet in all of the threads where many people have posted and shown you things that were wrong, I don't recall you changing your mind on anything. I have seen quite a few posts where people presented you with information and you did not respond to the post. The problem is that you assume you are correct and then argue from that point. You assume that if God saves people different ways, he is a respecter of persons, yet you have not shown how this would be the case. You put God's salvation under your conditions, if God does something a different way you say He can't do it.

And how about a verse that says we go to heaven when we die.

I dont negate anything. Ephesians says we are saved TO our works. We are created in Christ jesus FOR good works. But as it clearly says we aare indeed saved by faith and not of ourselves or any work lest any man should boast. The only way we cant boast is if we have nothing to offer. If we have something to offer, we have grounds to boast. You are saying all of this show me Scripture stuff but it deosnt matter how much i show you. If you close your mind to believe what you want i can show you everything you need and you wouldnt believe. The devil knows the Bible and a lot of good that does him. I dont go against any Scripture. I agree that we are saved FOR good works.

Btw, show me a Scripture that Paradise is NOT heaven, and then show me a Scripture showing that those in Paradise WILL NOT go to heaven.

I havent changed my mind yet because there is a big fat scene i which a man who did not do works went to be with Jesus. So, call me crazy, but i believe that a list of works is not necessary for right standing. its not a matter of debate, its a matter of factual evidence. A man actually went to be with Jesus who did not do the works of the sheep. Its not a matter of not changing my mind its a matter of look this actually happened right here.

I have already given you the explanation for faith/works. We are saved by grace thru faith FOR good works. The works dont save they are evidence of our faith. Will we give an account for every deed? yup. Will we be saved based on our works alone? No. We will be saved because of our faith. Our faith will cause us to do things that real faith brings about. By faith Abraham did this or that. By faith Samson did this. By faith Rahab did this. Was the focus on their works? No, it was on their faith, which caused them to do works. Our works will indeed be judged, and they will testify to our faith. That encompasses all Scriptures. including the thief, which your interpretation claims is impossible.

Also, it seems that 100% of voters have agreed we are saved To do works not because of works. Another reason i havent changed is because if you ask most Christians are you saved to do works or saved because of works they will answer the former, as seen in the polls. Also, i know that Catholics believe we are saved because of works, so that is another reaon why i do not believe that lol.

The basics of faith/works is not a matter of me being stubborn. It is a matter of looking at an actual event in which a man with no works was forgiven adn promised to be with Jesus. How am i being stubborn by believeing in faith alone when that is all the thief had?

i am not negating passages. I am negating your interpretation of those passages. Did the sheep passage seem works based? Yes. Did the thief do those works? No. Did the thief go to be with Jesus? Yes.

Therefore, based on what has actually happened and is writeen and recorded in Scripture, my interpretation is that it is possible to go to be with Jesus without doing those specific things. Therefore, the parable should be interpreted with the mindset that it is possible to go to heaven without doing those specific things, because it has happened. Therefore the parable is showing how faith produces works, as seen by the evidence of the sheep(sheep parable), however those specific works are not needed to be with Jesus (thief) i am including ALL pasages. This is what it means to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word. The word can get really sticky and look like it is in direct contradiction of itself. However, we know God does not contradict himself and He is not the author of confusion.


An interpretation that says, in order to go to heaven you must do item A, B, and C, when there is evidence of a person going to heaven without A, B, and C, is causing confusion. The Word needs to be rightly divided. Truths need to be rightly divided. The whole purpose of rightly divide is just that. DIVIDE. we need to rightly divide faith/works. We have a clear example of a man going to be with Jesus without doing certain works listed in a parable. therefore the works in the parable are not there to mean we must do those exact things or no Jesus. Why? Because There was a man who did not do those things nad went to heaven. Therefore it is time to rightly divide so that our interpretation does not make the Bible contradict itself or nullify itself

and as i said before please show a verse that Paradise is not heaven and then show that those in Paradise do not go to heaven eventually

Diggindeeper
Jan 12th 2009, 06:26 AM
I don't mean to butt in, but sirs...we have no way of knowing WHAT works the thief on the cross did in his lifetime. Not one clue!

However, I do know one thing for certain...our works, good or bad, holy or evil, kind or unkind, follow us beyond the grave! It says so right here:

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

In fact, every time we so much as speak or even think upon His name...a record is being kept! It is written down! Did you know that? Written down in a book called "The Book of Remembrance"! I firmly believe that very book will be opened at the judgement, and we better hope with all our might that we have things written down there. Here is why I say that:

Malachi 3:16
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

Just to speak or to think upon His wonderful name...its written down. We are not the judge of that poor thief on the cross. We really don't know what he did or did not do. But I guarantee Christ Jesus knows. And we have the assurance from his very mouth, that wherever Jesus was the moment after his breath left his body...that day...that little man was with him!

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 07:09 AM
I dont negate anything. Ephesians says we are saved TO our works. We are created in Christ jesus FOR good works. But as it clearly says we aare indeed saved by faith and not of ourselves or any work lest any man should boast. The only way we cant boast is if we have nothing to offer. If we have something to offer, we have grounds to boast. You are saying all of this show me Scripture stuff but it deosnt matter how much i show you. If you close your mind to believe what you want i can show you everything you need and you wouldnt believe. The devil knows the Bible and a lot of good that does him. I dont go against any Scripture. I agree that we are saved FOR good works.

Btw, show me a Scripture that Paradise is NOT heaven, and then show me a Scripture showing that those in Paradise WILL NOT go to heaven.

I havent changed my mind yet because there is a big fat scene i which a man who did not do works went to be with Jesus. So, call me crazy, but i believe that a list of works is not necessary for right standing. its not a matter of debate, its a matter of factual evidence. A man actually went to be with Jesus who did not do the works of the sheep. Its not a matter of not changing my mind its a matter of look this actually happened right here.

I have already given you the explanation for faith/works. We are saved by grace thru faith FOR good works. The works dont save they are evidence of our faith. Will we give an account for every deed? yup. Will we be saved based on our works alone? No. We will be saved because of our faith. Our faith will cause us to do things that real faith brings about. By faith Abraham did this or that. By faith Samson did this. By faith Rahab did this. Was the focus on their works? No, it was on their faith, which caused them to do works. Our works will indeed be judged, and they will testify to our faith. That encompasses all Scriptures. including the thief, which your interpretation claims is impossible.

Also, it seems that 100% of voters have agreed we are saved To do works not because of works. Another reason i havent changed is because if you ask most Christians are you saved to do works or saved because of works they will answer the former, as seen in the polls. Also, i know that Catholics believe we are saved because of works, so that is another reaon why i do not believe that lol.

The basics of faith/works is not a matter of me being stubborn. It is a matter of looking at an actual event in which a man with no works was forgiven adn promised to be with Jesus. How am i being stubborn by believeing in faith alone when that is all the thief had?

i am not negating passages. I am negating your interpretation of those passages. Did the sheep passage seem works based? Yes. Did the thief do those works? No. Did the thief go to be with Jesus? Yes.

Therefore, based on what has actually happened and is writeen and recorded in Scripture, my interpretation is that it is possible to go to be with Jesus without doing those specific things. Therefore, the parable should be interpreted with the mindset that it is possible to go to heaven without doing those specific things, because it has happened. Therefore the parable is showing how faith produces works, as seen by the evidence of the sheep(sheep parable), however those specific works are not needed to be with Jesus (thief) i am including ALL pasages. This is what it means to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word. The word can get really sticky and look like it is in direct contradiction of itself. However, we know God does not contradict himself and He is not the author of confusion.


An interpretation that says, in order to go to heaven you must do item A, B, and C, when there is evidence of a person going to heaven without A, B, and C, is causing confusion. The Word needs to be rightly divided. Truths need to be rightly divided. The whole purpose of rightly divide is just that. DIVIDE. we need to rightly divide faith/works. We have a clear example of a man going to be with Jesus without doing certain works listed in a parable. therefore the works in the parable are not there to mean we must do those exact things or no Jesus. Why? Because There was a man who did not do those things nad went to heaven. Therefore it is time to rightly divide so that our interpretation does not make the Bible contradict itself or nullify itself

and as i said before please show a verse that Paradise is not heaven and then show that those in Paradise do not go to heaven eventually

As I said, you have take one verse of Scripture and denied whole passages of teaching from Jesus and Paul. Jesus told the thief he would be in paradise, you say, therefore, no works are needed because if one gets into paradise without them, all men will. However, if God is limited to your theology, why then in Acts do we have Peter telling the Jews to repent and be baptized and they will receive the Holy Spirit, then in Acts 10 we have God giving the Holy Spirit before Peter even finishes preaching. According to you God cannot do this because He gave the Spirit differently. You talk about rightly dividing the word, yet you ignore passages of Scripture or deny the meaning. You said regarding the Ephesians passage that it is not of any works, that is what Paul said, He did not say, any works, and as I have already shown and you have not attempted to refute, Paul was speaking of works of the Law. You keep saying you don't go against Scripture only my interpretation, well this is not my interpretation, you said works are not necessary,


Romans 2:2-9 ( KJV ) 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Are you going to tell Paul he is wrong also?


John 5:28-29 ( KJV ) 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What about Christ, no interpretation here, just tell how this doesn't mean what it says.


2 Corinthians 5:10-11 ( KJV ) 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.


Revelation 20:11-15 ( KJV ) 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Jude 1:15 ( KJV ) 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Matthew 16:24-28 ( KJV ) 24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ( KJV ) 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

No interpreation, how do they not mean what they say. Does your understanding of the thief negate all of these passages? Maybe it is your understanding that needs to be re-evaluated.

Have the 95 found any Scripture that says we go to heaven when we die?

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 07:15 AM
I don't mean to butt in, but sirs...we have no way of knowing WHAT works the thief on the cross did in his lifetime. Not one clue!

However, I do know one thing for certain...our works, good or bad, holy or evil, kind or unkind, follow us beyond the grave! It says so right here:

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

In fact, every time we so much as speak or even think upon His name...a record is being kept! It is written down! Did you know that? Written down in a book called "The Book of Remembrance"! I firmly believe that very book will be opened at the judgement, and we better hope with all our might that we have things written down there. Here is why I say that:

Malachi 3:16
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

Just to speak or to think upon His wonderful name...its written down. We are not the judge of that poor thief on the cross. We really don't know what he did or did not do. But I guarantee Christ Jesus knows. And we have the assurance from his very mouth, that wherever Jesus was the moment after his breath left his body...that day...that little man was with him!




Very good point!

9Marksfan
Jan 12th 2009, 10:32 AM
I don't follow this line of argument about the works of the thief on the cross prior to his execution - are we all agreed he wasn't a believer before he was crucified? I think the fact that he was railing against Christ along with the other is pretty conclusive proof!

The point is - he was converted to Christ on the cross - possibly only minutes before he died - no time for any "works" as such, but I believe his public confession of Christ, his warning/rebuking his fellow thief and his humility were all good works that evidenced the reality of his faith. As for whatever else he did before he was crucified, it was all evil (as with all of us before our conversion) but it was all paid for by Christ's blood! :pp

shepherdsword
Jan 12th 2009, 10:45 AM
If there is no evidence of doing any of those physical good works you mention, does it mean we are not saved? What about these signs that will follow them that believe? Are they to be physically interpreted or spiritually interpreted?

Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mr 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mr 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Blessings,
RW

My friend once gave me a good analogy for the text above.
He said if he got some instruction on how to build a ham radio. He puts it together. He then turns the power switch and nothing happens. He said he then has no choice but to go back and look at the instructions to see what he did wrong. He knows he missed a step because the instructions have been proven by others who used them

If these signs aren't following us maybe it's due to we do not have the kind of believing that is being spoken of in the text.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 01:47 PM
Since this one was focused on the polls that I started... I mentioned a couple of sermons that I would post. May as well do that here as well and then you guys can really have a good old head-spinning time. ;)

You can listen to the two messages that I preached here. It is the top blog post... two parts which are really two Sunday sermons.

http://projectpeter.blogspot.com/

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 03:17 PM
As I said, you have take one verse of Scripture and denied whole passages of teaching from Jesus and Paul. Jesus told the thief he would be in paradise, you say, therefore, no works are needed because if one gets into paradise without them, all men will. However, if God is limited to your theology, why then in Acts do we have Peter telling the Jews to repent and be baptized and they will receive the Holy Spirit, then in Acts 10 we have God giving the Holy Spirit before Peter even finishes preaching. According to you God cannot do this because He gave the Spirit differently. You talk about rightly dividing the word, yet you ignore passages of Scripture or deny the meaning. You said regarding the Ephesians passage that it is not of any works, that is what Paul said, He did not say, any works, and as I have already shown and you have not attempted to refute, Paul was speaking of works of the Law. You keep saying you don't go against Scripture only my interpretation, well this is not my interpretation, you said works are not necessary,


Romans 2:2-9 ( KJV ) 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Are you going to tell Paul he is wrong also?


John 5:28-29 ( KJV ) 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What about Christ, no interpretation here, just tell how this doesn't mean what it says.


2 Corinthians 5:10-11 ( KJV ) 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.


Revelation 20:11-15 ( KJV ) 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Jude 1:15 ( KJV ) 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Matthew 16:24-28 ( KJV ) 24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ( KJV ) 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

No interpreation, how do they not mean what they say. Does your understanding of the thief negate all of these passages? Maybe it is your understanding that needs to be re-evaluated.

Have the 95 found any Scripture that says we go to heaven when we die?


as i said before. part of the judgement includes works. We are not saved by those works, but they do attest and witness to our faith. SO people will have all of their works judged. I never denied that. However the works are evidence of who we are, not the grounds of right standing. If it were so, the thief would not have right standing.


Thats why we are rewarded/judged by works. They are evidence to who we are as i already said. You will know them by their fruits. HOWEVER, as Paul also says, we are justified by faith with the righteousness of God for all who believe. It is our faith that saves us. Our works are testaments to whether we had faith or not. Thats why the ungodly will be punished for thier works. Their works prove that they are faithless, wicked lawbreakers. Thats why the righteous recieve reward for their good deeds. By doing those good deeds they provide evidence of true faith. However, it is not those works that is saving us, it is a living faith. Thats why the thief had ebough to be with Jesus because it is our faith that saves us. Our works are a witness to our faith. IF we have faith we will love our brother. If we have faith we will obey Jesus. Thats why our works are brought into judgement. They show IF we had faith or not. SO please stop falsely accusing me of ignoring passages and what not. I am not ignoring passages, i am ignoring your interpretation which does not cover the thief on the cross. I have already explained to you the CORRECT interpretation of judgement by works which attest to who we are. At the end of the day my interpretation includes justification by faith AND works. We are justified by faith, the faith that justifies produces works. The works are not grounds for right standing, they are fruit of faith. You will know them by their fruits. Thats why our works are judged, to see what kind of tree we are. It is not the works that save but being a good tree that saves.

That explains why the thief went to be with Jesus without feeding the poor, etc. It also explains why the sheep and goats were judged by works. The works attested to who they were, sheep or goat. In this way we will be judged by works.


And whether you believe Pardise is heaven or not or whatever, at the end of the day Jesus said He would be there WITH the thief. You will be WITH ME in Paradise. So we can argue about whether Paradise is this or that but you cant argue that the thief was not eventually with Jesus or else Jesus lied to him. Call me crazy but being promised to be WITH JESUS sounds like heaven to me. But wether it is or not the fact remains Jesus promised the thief would be with Him

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 03:28 PM
I don't follow this line of argument about the works of the thief on the cross prior to his execution - are we all agreed he wasn't a believer before he was crucified? I think the fact that he was railing against Christ along with the other is pretty conclusive proof!

The point is - he was converted to Christ on the cross - possibly only minutes before he died - no time for any "works" as such, but I believe his public confession of Christ, his warning/rebuking his fellow thief and his humility were all good works that evidenced the reality of his faith. As for whatever else he did before he was crucified, it was all evil (as with all of us before our conversion) but it was all paid for by Christ's blood! :pp

Good point. As i said the "works" attest to our faith, they are not the grounds of right standing. Jesus didnt say anything until the thief confessed Him as Lord. THEN He said, you will be WITH ME

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 03:30 PM
Since not much of those biblical good works are not being done (they really aren't if we're honest) then what does that say about those "saved?" Hopefully folks will at least ponder that point.Right. While those things do not save us (Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), if we're not doing any of those things then we have to question whether or not we're really saved. As James said, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18).

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 03:32 PM
Right. While those things do not save us (Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), if we're not doing any of those things then we have to question whether or not we're really saved. As James said, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18).


i definetly agree with all of this. true faith produces works. however the works is not grounds for right standing, but they are indeed testimony to our faith. Thats why the thief got by with simply confessing Jesus as Lord. His faith saved him. Had he lived longer im sure he would have done many good works. However the works are the fruit of who we are. You will know thm by their fruit. Thats why all deeds are brought into judgement. Our deeds attest to whether we are a good or bad tree.

drew
Jan 12th 2009, 03:33 PM
The Bible clearly says we are not saved by works (emphasis is mine)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This text has, I believe, been widely misunderstood. From context, it is clear that the "works" here are not "good works". The "works" at issue in this part of Ephesian 2 are the works of the Torah, and specifically those practices that marked the Jew as distinct from the Gentile (e.g. circumcision, Sabbath, kosher laws, etc.). So Paul is not denying salvation by "good works" - he is denying that salvation is for Jews and Jews only.

Besides, we already know from Romans 2 that we are indeed given eternal life based on "good works":

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202&version=31#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But to address the poll. Given the way the poll is framed my answer would be the same as Butch - both.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 03:34 PM
i definetly agree with all of this. true faith produces works. however the works is not grounds for right standing, but they are indeed testimony to our faith. Thats why the thief got by with simply confessing Jesus as Lord. His faith saved him. Had he lived longer im sure he would have done many good works. However the works are the fruit of who we are. You will know thm by their fruit. Thats why all deeds are brought into judgement. Our deeds attest to whether we are a good or bad tree.
So if one isn't producing good works then what can we say about their "faith"?

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 03:34 PM
Right. While those things do not save us (Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), if we're not doing any of those things then we have to question whether or not we're really saved. As James said, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18).

True that.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure. Only those who endure to the end shall be saved. Paul himself believed he could be disqualified, yet he was told by Christ Himself that he was a chosen vessel.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 03:43 PM
So if one isn't producing good works then what can we say about their "faith"?

if someone has no works at all then their faith is either dead or non-existent. However works take time and are not the grounds of salvation. The grounds of salvation is being a good tree/sheep/good soil. It is what/who we are that saves us. ALl sheep are saved. So, when you ask that question, we must keep in mind that if someone comes to Christ on a Sunday at 9:00AM, we cant run up at 9:30 and say, hey you dont have any works! Your not saved! lol Fruit does not just appear. It grows over time. No branch just magically has full grown fruit appear. It grows from a tiny thing to a big thing. Thats why all we need is faith like a mustard seed, because it will eventually grow and become a blessing

So on the issue of works, we must take into account how long that person has been a Christian. If they have been one for a period of time and have no works, we must call them to examine themselves whether they are in the faith, if they are, we must stir them up to love and good works. If they aren't, we must lay the foundation.

However as i said before the works attest to who we are. So you see we are justified by faith, and we are also justified by faith and works. Our works prove us to indeed be justified.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 03:44 PM
if someone has no works at all then their faith is either dead or non-existent. However works take time and are not the grounds of salvation. The grounds of salvation is being a good tree/sheep/good soil. It is what/who we are that saves us. ALl sheep are saved. So, when you ask that question, we must keep in mind that if someone comes to Christ on a Sunday at 9:00AM, we cant run up at 9:30 and say, hey you dont have any works! Your not saved! lol Fruit does not just appear. It grows over time. No branch just magically has full grown fruit appear. It grows from a tiny thing to a big thing. Thats why all we need is faith like a mustard seed, because it will eventually grow and become a blessing

So on the issue of works, we must take into account how long that person has been a Christian. If they have been one for a period of time and have no works, we must call them to examine themselves whether they are in the faith, if they are, we must stir them up to love and good works. If they aren't, we must lay the foundation.

However as i said before the works attest to who we are. So you see we are justified by faith, and we are also justified by faith and works. Our works prove us to indeed be justified.
So then dead faith or non-existent faith describes one that is still saved? How exactly does that work? All of your examples are truthfully the extreme such as the thief on the cross. We aren't talking about someone truly saved and then whack... dead! We are talking about the vast majority of folks claiming Christianity... been Christian for a bit of time now.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 03:52 PM
This text has, I believe, been widely misunderstood. From context, it is clear that the "works" here are not "good works". The "works" at issue in this part of Ephesian 2 are the works of the Torah, and specifically those practices that marked the Jew as distinct from the Gentile (e.g. circumcision, Sabbath, kosher laws, etc.). So Paul is not denying salvation by "good works" - he is denying that salvation is for Jews and Jews only.

Besides, we already know from Romans 2 that we are indeed given eternal life based on "good works":

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202&version=31#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But to address the poll. Given the way the poll is framed my answer would be the same as Butch - both.

My answer is also both but not in the way you and Butch see it. The way you and Butch seem to understand it presents a problem with the thief, since he did not feed the poor, visit prisons, etc.

My view is that we are justified by faith and justified by faith and works. Which one is it? Both. How? Because if you have genuine faith works will come. However the works are fruit of what kind of tree it is. It is not the works that are grounds of right-standing but the essence of what kind of tree it is. Thats why we will also be judged according to works. You will know them by their fruits. So, God is going to examine our fruit(works) IN this way we will be justified by faith AND works, because our works prove us to indeed have true faith. In all of tthe parables, it was a certain TYPE of person that was saved. The sheep are saved. The good tree is saved. How do you know if its a good tree or sheep? Judge the works. (as ours will be). Does that mean we earn right standing by doing good? NO. because all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. Thats why the thief, who did not feed the poor, or visit the sick or this or that, went to be with Jesus. We are saved by who we are. Are works attest to who we are. Are we saved by works? No, but our works are judged to see who we really are. Jesus knew what the thief really was, a believer. Thats all that mattered. Thats all that does matter. If we are the right person good works will come and we will be rewarded for them

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 03:56 PM
So then dead faith or non-existent faith describes one that is still saved? How exactly does that work? All of your examples are truthfully the extreme such as the thief on the cross. We aren't talking about someone truly saved and then whack... dead! We are talking about the vast majority of folks claiming Christianity... been Christian for a bit of time now.

AS far as the vastness of Christianity, there are a ton of false believers here in America. However its not like if we dont do the certain list from a parable we are not saved. I have donated clothing in the past and i have also been to a jail before for a friend but i have not yet visited someone sick. Does that mean i am not saved? no. Its deeper than that. Fruit also includes the (singular) fruit of the Spirit. A fruit that bears patience, kindness, love long-suffering, etc. Those are just examples of what the new creature looks like

I never said dead faith or non-existent faith is still saved? dead faith or non-existent faith cannot saved and anyone who has dead or non-existent faith is not saved.

i was only talking to Butch about how faith is enough and using the thief as an example. I in no way meant to say that its Ok if none of us do works just sit and believe lol i hope thats not how it sounded. My point was to prove we are saved by faith. we are judged by works because they are fruit of who we are. The fruit does not save, the faith does. thats all i was saying. All of us should strive to do good orks as God leads but that doesnt mean we should have the mindset that by doing these things i will have right standing. Our mindset should be, i have right-standing, therefore i will serve with joy and gladness, giving cheerfuly and without reserve.

Its not like by doing good things we clean up our own righteousness to look good on judgement day. As Paul said in Phillipians 3, he wanted to be found in a righteousness other than his own, the righteousness from God that comes by faith

By faith we already recieve the righteousness that comes from God

The thief was righteous by faith

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 04:03 PM
AS far as the vastness of Christianity, there are a ton of false believers here in America. However its not like if we dont do the certain list from a parable we are not saved. I have donated clothing in the past and i have also been to a jail before for a friend but i have not yet visited someone sick. Does that mean i am not saved? no. Its deeper than that. Fruit also includes the (singular) fruit of the Spirit. A fruit that bears patience, kindness, love long-suffering, etc. Those are just examples of what the new creature looks like

I never said dead faith or non-existent faith is still saved? dead faith or non-existent faith cannot saved and anyone who has dead or non-existent faith is not saved.

i was only talking to Butch about how faith is enough and using the thief as an example. I in no way meant to say that its Ok if none of us do works just sit and believe lol i hope thats not how it sounded. My point was to prove we are saved by faith. we are judged by works because they are fruit of who we are. The fruit does not save, the faith does. thats all i was saying. All of us should strive to do good orks as God leads but that doesnt mean we should have the mindset that by doing these things i will have right standing. Our mindset should be, i have right-standing, therefore i will serve with joy and gladness, giving cheerfuly and without reserve.

Its not like by doing good things we clean up our own righteousness to look good on judgement day. As Paul said in Phillipians 3, he wanted to be found in a righteousness other than his own, the righteousness from God that comes by faith

By faith we are already recieve the righteousness that comes from God

Do you think that Jesus was talking about this being something that we have done once or twice in our life or do you think Jesus is talking about a principle in which we, as followers of Him, should do as a practice... a mindset if you will?

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 04:06 PM
Do you think that Jesus was talking about this being something that we have done once or twice in our life or do you think Jesus is talking about a principle in which we, as followers of Him, should do as a practice... a mindset if you will?


i most definetly believe that this is talking about a lifestyle. In fact, as we abide in the vine, we should be making increasing progression in fruit. Every tree that bears fruit is pruned to bear much more.

Its not a matter of Ok i did this twice, did this once, etc. It is a matter of the heart. Christians should be characterized as people who give to those in need and love one another. By this the world will know we are His disciples.

ProjectPeter
Jan 12th 2009, 04:29 PM
i most definetly believe that this is talking about a lifestyle. In fact, as we abide in the vine, we should be making increasing progression in fruit. Every tree that bears fruit is pruned to bear much more.

Its not a matter of Ok i did this twice, did this once, etc. It is a matter of the heart. Christians should be characterized as people who give to those in need and love one another. By this the world will know we are His disciples.
Okay... so listen to the sermons that I preached when you have some time. Then tell me what exactly you disagree with. ;)

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 06:15 PM
Okay... so listen to the sermons that I preached when you have some time. Then tell me what exactly you disagree with. ;)

i dont think i ever disagreed with you (i think)

i was disagreeing with Butch5 statement that unless we did those specific things listed in the parable that we could not be saved. I was pointing out that if the thief did not do them and went to be with Jesus then that is evidence that doing the list is not a grounds for salvation. On the other hand, it is clear that sheep will grow in good works and bear fruit. I was simply making the distinction that it is not about doing a certain list and more about BEING a new creature. I was trying to show how all the sheep passed the test. Their works reflected who they were, but they were not the grounds of being declared what they already were.

It is a very very very fine line lol. We are saved by faith, but faith without works is dead. Does that mean we are saved by works, in the sense that by doing works we become a sheep? no. The faith of the sheep produces works.

If you notice in James, he is showing how Abrahams faith had works, (ie sacrificing his son), however, in Romans, Paul makes it celar that Abraham was already justified before he was even circumcised. Which is it? Its both. He was justified by faith, and that faith was proven by his works, however he was justified before he even got circumcised and all that good stuff;)

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 06:30 PM
Okay... so listen to the sermons that I preached when you have some time. Then tell me what exactly you disagree with. ;)

also thanks for your posts about feeding the poor and etc, it has inspired me to grow in more fruit. Good posts everyone

I listened to a little bit of the Part 1 of your message. Very sobering and encouraging for us to start abounding in good works!

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 09:30 PM
as i said before. part of the judgement includes works. We are not saved by those works, but they do attest and witness to our faith. SO people will have all of their works judged. I never denied that. However the works are evidence of who we are, not the grounds of right standing. If it were so, the thief would not have right standing.


Thats why we are rewarded/judged by works. They are evidence to who we are as i already said. You will know them by their fruits. HOWEVER, as Paul also says, we are justified by faith with the righteousness of God for all who believe. It is our faith that saves us. Our works are testaments to whether we had faith or not. Thats why the ungodly will be punished for thier works. Their works prove that they are faithless, wicked lawbreakers. Thats why the righteous recieve reward for their good deeds. By doing those good deeds they provide evidence of true faith. However, it is not those works that is saving us, it is a living faith. Thats why the thief had ebough to be with Jesus because it is our faith that saves us. Our works are a witness to our faith. IF we have faith we will love our brother. If we have faith we will obey Jesus. Thats why our works are brought into judgement. They show IF we had faith or not. SO please stop falsely accusing me of ignoring passages and what not. I am not ignoring passages, i am ignoring your interpretation which does not cover the thief on the cross. I have already explained to you the CORRECT interpretation of judgement by works which attest to who we are. At the end of the day my interpretation includes justification by faith AND works. We are justified by faith, the faith that justifies produces works. The works are not grounds for right standing, they are fruit of faith. You will know them by their fruits. Thats why our works are judged, to see what kind of tree we are. It is not the works that save but being a good tree that saves.

That explains why the thief went to be with Jesus without feeding the poor, etc. It also explains why the sheep and goats were judged by works. The works attested to who they were, sheep or goat. In this way we will be judged by works.


And whether you believe Pardise is heaven or not or whatever, at the end of the day Jesus said He would be there WITH the thief. You will be WITH ME in Paradise. So we can argue about whether Paradise is this or that but you cant argue that the thief was not eventually with Jesus or else Jesus lied to him. Call me crazy but being promised to be WITH JESUS sounds like heaven to me. But wether it is or not the fact remains Jesus promised the thief would be with Him

You did not address that Scripture verses that I posted, all you said was we are judged by our works. Do you not see the contradiction in your post? You said,


Reformed---At the end of the day my interpretation includes justification by faith AND works. We are justified by faith, the faith that justifies produces works. The works are not grounds for right standing, they are fruit of faith.

First you say it is justification by faith and works, immediately after you say, we are justified by faith, and that faith produces works. How can you be justified by faith and works if it is justified faith that produces the works?

Here you said,


Reformed---Thats why we are rewarded/judged by works.

Yes, and the reward is, either eternal life, or eternal damnation. Please explain then, how they are not salvific?


Reformed---SO people will have all of their works judged. I never denied that. However the works are evidence of who we are, not the grounds of right standing. If it were so, the thief would not have right standing.


If they are not the grounds for right standing, then please explain why they are the basis for the judgment. There is no mention of faith in any of those judgment passages, everyone is based on works.

Also, I provided no interpretation with those verses of Scripture, could you please go through them and exegete them for us, so that we can see how works are not the basis for the judgment?

How about the 95, have they come up with any Scripture yet?

You keep going back to the thief, so I am going to use your reasoning.
Scripture says,

Hebrews 9:27 ( KJV ) 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Paul said,

Romans 5:12 ( KJV ) 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So, Scripture says all men die, all means everyone, as we see from the second part of Paul's statement, all have sinned.

So then, every man has to die, there is no way around it.

2 Kings 2:11 ( KJV ) 11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

What? Elijah didn't die? Wow, so using your reasoning we can conclude that the people of God do not die, we are simply taken out of the world, Right? I mean we have an example of one guy who did not die, just like you have of the thief, we don't have to worry about what the rest of the Scripture says, right? But wait,

Genesis 5:22-24 ( KJV ) 22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


Enoch didn't die?


Hebrews 11:5 ( KJV ) 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


So, now there are two examples (you only have one), isn't this sure fire proof that the people of God do not die, but are taken up out of the world?


Do you see how erroneous this line of reasoning is? We know God's people die, as Paul states, death passed upon all men. If God chooses to make an exception, He has every right to. He is not obligated to work according to your theology.

My friend, your line of reasoning is not how we rightly divide the word of God. When we have a direct command from Scripture, we do not seek to find where God chose to do something differently, and use it to undermine what the Scripture says.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 09:38 PM
Reformed---No, but our works are judged to see who we really are.


Christ already knows who we are, why would He have to use judgment to see who we are?

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 09:57 PM
My friend, your line of reasoning is not how we rightly divide the word of God. When we have a direct command from Scripture, we do not seek to find where God chose to do something differently, and use it to undermine what the Scripture says.

You are right that we were instructed to do good works, for if we willingly deny to do them, then we must question our faith for being genuine. Remember that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Instructions can not be ignored. It is because of this instruction that we want to do good works. For without God's instruction to do good works, no one who was saved would have any inclination to do them. But because we have been told to do them, we do them with a glad heart, knowing that God is being praised through them.

Neither I nor reformedct is denying that fact that these instructions are important. What we are instead saying is that good works will not come about without a saving faith, and thus can't be used to save us even in the smallest part.

Like I said earlier, salvation through works, either in part or in whole, denies the almighty power of God to choose who He wants to be saved. It is saying that God is unable to forgive unless man has done something in return. It takes the emphasis off of God's power, and places it on man's duty.

We know that we are a sinful people, and without Christ, there can be nothing good that comes about from us. Would God accept sinful works to benefit our salvation?

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 10:12 PM
i dont think i ever disagreed with you (i think)

i was disagreeing with Butch5 statement that unless we did those specific things listed in the parable that we could not be saved. I was pointing out that if the thief did not do them and went to be with Jesus then that is evidence that doing the list is not a grounds for salvation. On the other hand, it is clear that sheep will grow in good works and bear fruit. I was simply making the distinction that it is not about doing a certain list and more about BEING a new creature. I was trying to show how all the sheep passed the test. Their works reflected who they were, but they were not the grounds of being declared what they already were.

It is a very very very fine line lol. We are saved by faith, but faith without works is dead. Does that mean we are saved by works, in the sense that by doing works we become a sheep? no. The faith of the sheep produces works.

If you notice in James, he is showing how Abrahams faith had works, (ie sacrificing his son), however, in Romans, Paul makes it celar that Abraham was already justified before he was even circumcised. Which is it? Its both. He was justified by faith, and that faith was proven by his works, however he was justified before he even got circumcised and all that good stuff;)

Again I will repeat, I never gave a to do list, I quoted Scripture. If you read that as, we must do these exact things, that is your interpretation, much like your other. I have only used the word works, I did not specify any particular works.

I have already dealt with Paul and James in the thread " Are Jesus' teachings law?" post 30, to which you did not respond. You might want to read James again. You are correct, when you say that Paul makes it clear that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised (work of the law, which cannot save). However, notice what James actually says,

James 2:21-23 ( KJV ) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Paul said Abraham believed God and it was counted for righteousness, when did that happen? James tells us, when he offered Issac (works of obedience). James says, see, how faith wrought "with" works, James says, and "by works," faith was made perfect or complete. James is saying here, that it is works of obedience that made faith complete. Then he goes on to say that the Scripture was fulfilled. When? When was the Scripture fulfilled? It was fulfilled when Abraham acted in obedience, So Abraham was declared righteous when, out of faith, he obeyed God. James makes it clear, that Abraham was not declared righteous, until he acted in obedience.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 10:28 PM
You are right that we were instructed to do good works, for if we willingly deny to do them, then we must question our faith for being genuine. Remember that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Instructions can not be ignored. It is because of this instruction that we want to do good works. For without God's instruction to do good works, no one who was saved would have any inclination to do them. But because we have been told to do them, we do them with a glad heart, knowing that God is being praised through them.

Neither I nor reformedct is denying that fact that these instructions are important. What we are instead saying is that good works will not come about without a saving faith, and thus can't be used to save us even in the smallest part.

Like I said earlier, salvation through works, either in part or in whole, denies the almighty power of God to choose who He wants to be saved. It is saying that God is unable to forgive unless man has done something in return. It takes the emphasis off of God's power, and places it on man's duty.

We know that we are a sinful people, and without Christ, there can be nothing good that comes about from us. Would God accept sinful works to benefit our salvation?

The problem jrick is that you and reformed, just give opinion and do not address the Scriptures that have been presented. I have presented quite a bit of Scripture, why not exegete that Scripture and show how I am misinterrpeting it?

Let's deal with the part of my post regarding Elijah and Enoch. Do we conclude that all of God's people do not die, but are taken up into heaven?

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 10:41 PM
The problem jrick is that you and reformed, just give opinion and do not address the Scriptures that have been presented. I have presented quite a bit of Scripture, why not exegete that Scripture and show how I am misinterrpeting it?

Let's deal with the part of my post regarding Elijah and Enoch. Do we conclude that all of God's people do not die, but are taken up into heaven?

Yes, all those who God has preordained to save are taken to heaven. In the Bible, there are two ways which God does this: either by the ways in which you have shown, or through death. But for the saved, death is not the end, but is a passing from this sinful life into a perfect one. It is the shedding of our old nature and taking upon ourselves a new heavenly body.

There will also be a third way in which believers will enter into heaven, and that is on the last day. These people will not taste physical death, but will be taken up to spend their eternity in heaven.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 11:02 PM
Yes, all those who God has preordained to save are taken to heaven. In the Bible, there are two ways which God does this: either by the ways in which you have shown, or through death. But for the saved, death is not the end, but is a passing from this sinful life into a perfect one. It is the shedding of our old nature and taking upon ourselves a new heavenly body.

There will also be a third way in which believers will enter into heaven, and that is on the last day. These people will not taste physical death, but will be taken up to spend their eternity in heaven.

Let's just deal with what we have, not with the future. Let's just stay with the reasoning that Reformed is using. According to this reasoning we can conclude that God's people do not die, but are taken out of the world alive. Please reconcile that with the statement in Hebrews that says it is appointed unto man once to die and Paul's statement that death passed on all men. Now, remember, according to reformed, God cannot use two different methods, it must be the same for everyone.

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 11:17 PM
Let's just deal with what we have, not with the future. Let's just stay with the reasoning that Reformed is using. According to this reasoning we can conclude that God's people do not die, but are taken out of the world alive. Please reconcile that with the statement in Hebrews that says it is appointed unto man once to die and Paul's statement that death passed on all men. Now, remember, according to reformed, God cannot use two different methods, it must be the same for everyone.

Was there a question there? :P

It is important to understand that there are two different types of death: physical death and spiritual death. Knowing which one is being used in which context is important for understanding what is being said. Physical death is the act of actually dying on this earth and going to either heaven or hell. Spiritual death is separation from God, which can occur even when we are still spiritually alive. It sounds like Paul's statement was used to describe spiritual death, which happens to everyone through original sin. And yet, in Hebrews, "dying once" sounds like physical death.

Not sure what you want me to answer here...

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 11:25 PM
Was there a question there? :P

It is important to understand that there are two different types of death: physical death and spiritual death. Knowing which one is being used in which context is important for understanding what is being said. Physical death is the act of actually dying on this earth and going to either heaven or hell. Spiritual death is separation from God, which can occur even when we are still spiritually alive. It sounds like Paul's statement was used to describe spiritual death, which happens to everyone through original sin. And yet, in Hebrews, "dying once" sounds like physical death.

Not sure what you want me to answer here...

I want you to explain how Elijah and Enoch did not die, yet every man is subject to death. But I want you to do so using the same reasoning that Reformed used.

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 11:31 PM
I want you to explain how Elijah and Enoch did not die, yet every man is subject to death. But I want you to do so using the same reasoning that Reformed used.

I don't see any place where reformedct made this statement; could you quote it for me?

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 11:43 PM
I don't see any place where reformedct made this statement; could you quote it for me?

He didn't make that statement, I did. He said that the thief did no works, He gave this as proof that works are not necessary for salvation. He said God cannot save anyone differently, but that it is the same for everyone. Using this reasoning, Please explain how Elijah and Enoch were taken up alive, when Scripture clearly tells us that it is appointed unto man once to die.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 11:54 PM
Again I will repeat, I never gave a to do list, I quoted Scripture. If you read that as, we must do these exact things, that is your interpretation, much like your other. I have only used the word works, I did not specify any particular works.

I have already dealt with Paul and James in the thread " Are Jesus' teachings law?" post 30, to which you did not respond. You might want to read James again. You are correct, when you say that Paul makes it clear that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised (work of the law, which cannot save). However, notice what James actually says,

James 2:21-23 ( KJV ) 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Paul said Abraham believed God and it was counted for righteousness, when did that happen? James tells us, when he offered Issac (works of obedience). James says, see, how faith wrought "with" works, James says, and "by works," faith was made perfect or complete. James is saying here, that it is works of obedience that made faith complete. Then he goes on to say that the Scripture was fulfilled. When? When was the Scripture fulfilled? It was fulfilled when Abraham acted in obedience, So Abraham was declared righteous when, out of faith, he obeyed God. James makes it clear, that Abraham was not declared righteous, until he acted in obedience.


i apologize if i did not respond to a comment you made. sometimes my high security internet junk blocks certain web pages, and at other times i simply must leave the computer. If you can, please repost or give me the link so i can try to get to it. Also, i apologize for accusing you of making a list.

And also, yes, Abrahams faith was made perfect(complete, fulfilled its purpose, mature) by works, however, it was still his faith that was the cause of all these things. Thats why Paul says Abraham was righteous before he was even circumcised. By faith Abraham did what he did. His faith was perfected once he did what God gave him faith to do. I was just trying to point out that at the moment of faith we are righteous as Scripture says, Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness. Once we believe God, it is accounted as righteousness, as it was with Abraham. At that point we are righteous. Does this mean all is well and done? No, our faith has purpose. God gives us faith to fulfill His plan. Once we fulfill what our faith is given for our faith is made perfect(complete). Our faith has come to completion once we perform that which God gave us faith to perform.

The point i was trying to make is that the basis of our righteousness is faith. Living faith yes, but faith nonetheless

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 11:55 PM
He didn't make that statement, I did. He said that the thief did no works, He gave this as proof that works are not necessary for salvation. He said God cannot save anyone differently, but that it is the same for everyone. Using this reasoning, Please explain how Elijah and Enoch were taken up alive, when Scripture clearly tells us that it is appointed unto man once to die.


Many believe that these two are possibly the two witnesses in the end times that get killed so that is one possible explantion;)

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 12:10 AM
i apologize if i did not respond to a comment you made. sometimes my high security internet junk blocks certain web pages, and at other times i simply must leave the computer. If you can, please repost or give me the link so i can try to get to it. Also, i apologize for accusing you of making a list.

And also, yes, Abrahams faith was made perfect(complete, fulfilled its purpose, mature) by works, however, it was still his faith that was the cause of all these things. Thats why Paul says Abraham was righteous before he was even circumcised. By faith Abraham did what he did. His faith was perfected once he did what God gave him faith to do. I was just trying to point out that at the moment of faith we are righteous as Scripture says, Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness. Once we believe God, it is accounted as righteousness, as it was with Abraham. At that point we are righteous. Does this mean all is well and done? No, our faith has purpose. God gives us faith to fulfill His plan. Once we fulfill what our faith is given for our faith is made perfect(complete). Our faith has come to completion once we perform that which God gave us faith to perform.

The point i was trying to make is that the basis of our righteousness is faith. Living faith yes, but faith nonetheless

James whole point is that, it is the works, that complete the faith. Without the works, the faith is dead, and cannot saved. The works are a part of faith, without them there is no faith. I don't know how much clearer it can be. No works, no faith, no faith, no salvation, therefore, no works, no salvation. James clearly says a man is not saved by faith alone.

jrick
Jan 13th 2009, 12:15 AM
Butch5, may I ask, do you believe that we are able to do "good works" (by God's definition) before we are looked at as righteous before God? (before saving faith?)

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 12:39 AM
Many believe that these two are possibly the two witnesses in the end times that get killed so that is one possible explantion;)

At best that is a guess, Using your logic we have two men who did not die, therefore we can conclude that God's people do not die but are taken out of the world alive, correct?

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 12:41 AM
Butch5, may I ask, do you believe that we are able to do "good works" (by God's definition) before we are looked at as righteous before God? (before saving faith?)

If by good works you mean, helping an old lady across the street, or to feed the hungry, or clothe the naked, yes.

But you have not answered my question.

jrick
Jan 13th 2009, 12:43 AM
At best that is a guess, Using your logic we have two men who did not die, therefore we can conclude that God's people do not die but are taken out of the world alive, correct?

I believe that you are mixing up two very different things. God can not look at sinners differently and judge them differently, because He is a righteous God who will have sin punished. There is no other way than Christ.

However, once man is saved, God can do anything He wants to do to him. Remember that (physical) death for the Christian is God taking that believer back to Him. If God decides that He wants to bring some individuals back to Him in a different manner, He is free to do so.

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 12:50 AM
I believe that you are mixing up two very different things. God can not look at sinners differently and judge them differently, because He is a righteous God who will have sin punished. There is no other way than Christ.

However, once man is saved, God can do anything He wants to do to him. Remember that (physical) death for the Christian is God taking that believer back to Him. If God decides that He wants to bring some individuals back to Him in a different manner, He is free to do so.

So then you are changing the parameters again. According to reformed's argument, God must treat everyone the same. Do you not see that this line of reasoning is erroneous?

keck553
Jan 13th 2009, 12:51 AM
Sorry, the poll doesn't have the correct answer. From Adam to Noah down to Moses and the Israelites, down to you, salvation comes from grace alone; unmerited favor.

obeying God is an act of love. Mixing salvation with 'works' is unScriptual. It's also, as some present it here, based on Greek philosophy which is out of context with how God taught the Hebrews to vew 'works'.

jrick
Jan 13th 2009, 12:59 AM
If by good works you mean, helping an old lady across the street, or to feed the hungry, or clothe the naked, yes.

See, I have to disagree with your definition of a "good work".

John 15:5
I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Romans 14:23
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn’t of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.

Hebrews 11:6
Without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to him, for he who comes to God must believe that he exists, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him.

All three of these verses show that faith is necessary. In order to "bear much fruit", one must believe in Christ. Anything that is done apart from a saving faith is sinful before God's eyes, and it is impossible for God to be pleased with our works if we have not already been given faith. If saving faith is missing, then by God's definition, these works are not "good works".

So even though you may help that old lady across the street, give food to the needy, clothe the naked, etc., if you are without faith, then God will not be pleased by them.

And if God is not pleased by them, then in no way will He grant salvation based even partly on them. It is only after we are saved that we become capable of good works.


But you have not answered my question.

see my above post.

jrick
Jan 13th 2009, 01:01 AM
Sorry, the poll doesn't have the correct answer. From Adam to Noah down to Moses and the Israelites, down to you, salvation comes from grace alone; unmerited favor.

obeying God is an act of love. Mixing salvation with 'works' is unScriptual. It's also, as some present it here, based on Greek philosophy which is out of context with how God taught the Hebrews to vew 'works'.

Couldn't say it better myself.

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 01:04 AM
See, I have to disagree with your definition of a "good work".

John 15:5
I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Romans 14:23
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn’t of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.

Hebrews 11:6
Without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to him, for he who comes to God must believe that he exists, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him.

All three of these verses show that faith is necessary. In order to "bear much fruit", one must believe in Christ. Anything that is done apart from a saving faith is sinful before God's eyes, and it is impossible for God to be pleased with our works if we have not already been given faith. If saving faith is missing, then by God's definition, these works are not "good works".

So even though you may help that old lady across the street, give food to the needy, clothe the naked, etc., if you are without faith, then God will not be pleased by them.

And if God is not pleased by them, then in no way will He grant salvation based even partly on them. It is only after we are saved that we become capable of good works.



see my above post.

Can you put those Scripture verses in context for me?

You have not answered my question regarding Elijah and Enoch.

jrick
Jan 13th 2009, 01:21 AM
Can you put those Scripture verses in context for me?

Sure.

John 15 begins with the parable of the vine. Jesus refers to Himself as the vine, and as us as the branches. We are dependent upon Christ for growth. However, if we are not a part of the vine, we can not possibly bear good fruit.

Romans 14 is about clean and unclean food. If one eats food given to him as clean, and thinks that is may be unclean, then because he does not have faith in what God has said, it is sin. Anything which is done apart from God is sin.

Hebrews 11 is all about faith. In fact, here is the preceding verse:

5 By faith, Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn’t see death, and he was not found, because God translated him. For he has had testimony given to him that before his translation he had been well pleasing to God.

As evident by verse 6, Enoch must have had faith, for otherwise you can not be pleasing to God.


You have not answered my question regarding Elijah and Enoch.

I'm really sorry, but I do feel that I have answered the question. While God must deal with the justification of each sinner the same, He is not required to do the same to those who He calls back to Heaven, as is evident by your two examples. What exactly is flawed with this interpretation?

In any case, I find it a bit unfair that you are asking me to explain it, as it is really more of a question to reformedct.

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 01:48 AM
jrick---Sure.
John 15 begins with the parable of the vine. Jesus refers to Himself as the vine, and as us as the branches. We are dependent upon Christ for growth. However, if we are not a part of the vine, we can not possibly bear good fruit.


Isn't Jesus speaking to believers? Isn't He saying that they cannot bear fruit apart from Him? Where is He addressing unbelievers?


jrick---Romans 14 is about clean and unclean food. If one eats food given to him as clean, and thinks that is may be unclean, then because he does not have faith in what God has said, it is sin. Anything which is done apart from God is sin.

Isn't Paul talking about offend a brother? Doesn't he say not to cause a brother to stumble? Doesn't he say happy is the man who is not condemned in that which he allows? So when He says that which is not of faith is sin, isn't he referring to the brother who eats with offence causing another to stumble?


jrick---Hebrews 11 is all about faith. In fact, here is the preceding verse:

5 By faith, Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn’t see death, and he was not found, because God translated him. For he has had testimony given to him that before his translation he had been well pleasing to God.

As evident by verse 6, Enoch must have had faith, for otherwise you can not be pleasing to God.


Does the writer say all of these came to God in faith? Doesn't the writer say whoever comes to God, must come in faith?

All of these verses refer to believers, Where in any of these Scriptures do we see anything that show this is how God see unbelievers? Where in any of these does it say anything about how God sees the works of unbelievers.

See, you guys have to keep the Scriptures in context, the must be understood in the context of the book in which they were written. None of these are dealing with unbelievers.




jrick---I'm really sorry, but I do feel that I have answered the question. While God must deal with the justification of each sinner the same, He is not required to do the same to those who He calls back to Heaven, as is evident by your two examples. What exactly is flawed with this interpretation?

OK, you've answered it, and you've shown that the reasoning used by Reformed is erroneous, because you had to change the parameters.


jrick---In any case, I find it a bit unfair that you are asking me to explain it, as it is really more of a question to reformedct.

Unfair? My post was to Reformed, you are the one who replied to it. I did not post the question to you.

jrick
Jan 13th 2009, 02:23 AM
Isn't Jesus speaking to believers? Isn't He saying that they cannot bear fruit apart from Him? Where is He addressing unbelievers?

Jesus is speaking to people. Those who are in Him believe in Him. Those that are not part of the vine (do not believe in Him) are unable to do any good works.


Isn't Paul talking about offend a brother? Doesn't he say not to cause a brother to stumble? Doesn't he say happy is the man who is not condemned in that which he allows? So when He says that which is not of faith is sin, isn't he referring to the brother who eats with offence causing another to stumble?

Sorry, my brain is going dead and I have a huge assignment due tomorrow for a class. I may get a snow day, in which case I would have more time to think about this later. Fair? :)



Does the writer say all of these came to God in faith? Doesn't the writer say whoever comes to God, must come in faith?

All of these verses refer to believers, Where in any of these Scriptures do we see anything that show this is how God see unbelievers? Where in any of these does it say anything about how God sees the works of unbelievers.

See, you guys have to keep the Scriptures in context, the must be understood in the context of the book in which they were written. None of these are dealing with unbelievers.


Same here...



OK, you've answered it, and you've shown that the reasoning used by Reformed is erroneous, because you had to change the parameters.

Please show me where in the Reformed confessions (they're in my sig) it says that God must also decide to take individuals to heaven in the same manner.


Unfair? My post was to Reformed, you are the one who replied to it. I did not post the question to you.


I was thinking of this:


I want you to explain how Elijah and Enoch did not die, yet every man is subject to death. But I want you to do so using the same reasoning that Reformed used.

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 02:52 AM
jrick---Jesus is speaking to people. Those who are in Him believe in Him. Those that are not part of the vine (do not believe in Him) are unable to do any good works.

He is addressing believers, He says, you are the branches, the branches are in the vine.



jrick---Please show me where in the Reformed confessions (they're in my sig) it says that God must also decide to take individuals to heaven in the same manner.

Who said anything about the Reformed confessions? I was simply using the same reasoning that Reformed was using to argue his position of the thief.




jrick---I was thinking of this:

So was I, it came from the post to Reformed.

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 04:14 PM
At best that is a guess, Using your logic we have two men who did not die, therefore we can conclude that God's people do not die but are taken out of the world alive, correct?


Using my logic they did not die...yet

using my logic they will die and Scripture will be fulfilled. It is appointed to man once to die.

If my "logic" is correct it covers all bases


As far as the vine analogy in John 15


Who was the direct audience? Jewish disciples. What did they have in mind when Jesus said "vine?" Throughout the OT, God is constantly shown as the vinedresser and that Israel is His vine. Psalms 80 i believe says: You brought a vine out of Egypt, you scattered the nations and planted it. UNfortunately, God said that His vine only bore wild grapes.

So then fast forward to Jesus. I am the "true" vine. That means He is the true Israel. This passage was refferring to non-believing Jews who will be cut off from the vine of God. Very similar to the passage in Romans 11, refferring to the ethnic Jews being broken off and Gentiles being grafted in
it wasnt even about losing salvation, it was about the contrast between the vine of Israel and the true vine of Jesus. The branches are non-believing Jews. As John Calvin says, we must not take analogies to seriously or we fall into error. IN each parable Jesus is giving an example or element of what the kingdom is LIKE. That doesnt mean we take a parable and make it apply to Jesus in everyway ie: if He is a vine then what does the fertelizer represent? And if they are someway connected to the vine then obviously that means they are born again Christians, and so on and so forth. Its a parable, its an analogy, not an exact doctrinal replication of Jesus in everyway


well, i think that is enough arguing for one thread. I will leave this one alone now.

God Bless

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 05:07 PM
Reformed---Using my logic they did not die...yet

using my logic they will die and Scripture will be fulfilled. It is appointed to man once to die.

If my "logic" is correct it covers all bases



So, in other words you are speculating. Using your reasoning we can conclude that Christians do not die but are taken out of the world alive.



Refomed---As far as the vine analogy in John 15


Who was the direct audience? Jewish disciples. What did they have in mind when Jesus said "vine?" Throughout the OT, God is constantly shown as the vinedresser and that Israel is His vine. Psalms 80 i believe says: You brought a vine out of Egypt, you scattered the nations and planted it. UNfortunately, God said that His vine only bore wild grapes.

So then fast forward to Jesus. I am the "true" vine. That means He is the true Israel. This passage was refferring to non-believing Jews who will be cut off from the vine of God. Very similar to the passage in Romans 11, refferring to the ethnic Jews being broken off and Gentiles being grafted in
it wasnt even about losing salvation, it was about the contrast between the vine of Israel and the true vine of Jesus. The branches are non-believing Jews. As John Calvin says, we must not take analogies to seriously or we fall into error. IN each parable Jesus is giving an example or element of what the kingdom is LIKE. That doesnt mean we take a parable and make it apply to Jesus in everyway ie: if He is a vine then what does the fertelizer represent? And if they are someway connected to the vine then obviously that means they are born again Christians, and so on and so forth. Its a parable, its an analogy, not an exact doctrinal replication of Jesus in everyway


Oh, is that how we get out of Jesus' teachings? We listen to John Calvin who could not reconcile the Scriptures? We just say they don't count? Maybe we should do like Martin Luther and try to remove the books that don't agree with our theology. Since he couldn't do that, he just denigrated the book of James, calling it a book of straw.

“In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw,  compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it. But more of this in the other prefaces.” Martin Luther

He also railed against the books of Hebrews, Revelation, and Jude. He also said the synoptic gospels were not on par with John's gospel. Basically just use Paul's writings and you have the reformation.

ProjectPeter
Jan 13th 2009, 05:23 PM
So, in other words you are speculating. Using your reasoning we can conclude that Christians do not die but are taken out of the world alive.




Oh, is that how we get out of Jesus' teachings? We listen to John Calvin who could not reconcile the Scriptures? We just say they don't count? Maybe we should do like Martin Luther and try to remove the books that don't agree with our theology. Since he couldn't do that, he just denigrated the book of James, calling it a book of straw.

“In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw,  compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it. But more of this in the other prefaces.” Martin Luther

He also railed against the books of Hebrews, Revelation, and Jude. He also said the synoptic gospels were not on par with John's gospel. Basically just use Paul's writings and you have the reformation.
Pretty good nutshell version of what happened there. :lol:

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 05:46 PM
So, in other words you are speculating. Using your reasoning we can conclude that Christians do not die but are taken out of the world alive.




Oh, is that how we get out of Jesus' teachings? We listen to John Calvin who could not reconcile the Scriptures? We just say they don't count? Maybe we should do like Martin Luther and try to remove the books that don't agree with our theology. Since he couldn't do that, he just denigrated the book of James, calling it a book of straw.

“In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw,  compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it. But more of this in the other prefaces.” Martin Luther

He also railed against the books of Hebrews, Revelation, and Jude. He also said the synoptic gospels were not on par with John's gospel. Basically just use Paul's writings and you have the reformation.

whoa:rolleyes: i didnt say anyhting about Luther and i disagree with MUCH of what Luther had to say. Im not one of those reformed guys that worships Calvin and Luther. They ahd good things to say and other things i did not agree with. There were some good and bad things that came from the reformation. If not for Luther we might all be Catholics right now:rofl:


John Calvin is not the only one who agrees with this interpretation. There are others. The interpretation makes much sense to me. God ahs already been known to the Jews as the vinedresser of Israel, Gods vine. Then Jesus comes along and says i am the "true" vine. Im not throwing out Jesus teachings bro just caaaallllm down lol. We are brothers in Christ lets try to interact with more love than accusation.

If God has continually reffered to Israel as His vine in the OT, then Jesus comes along and says i am the true vine, call me crazy, but i see a connection. Also, in Romans also refers to the Jews being broken off branches. Therefore i am very comfortable and confident that my view is indeed correct. I would even go as far to say that the vine represents the promises of God. Israel was the recipient of the promises of God and now Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise. All those who do not abide in Jesus are cut off from the promises, cut off from the true Israel

If you would like to disagree, im not going to force you to see it how i see it. I respect your interpretation as well, i just disagreee with it. All i did was mention John Calvin and you guys start attacking/mocking the reformation?



As far as Christians literally dying and being appointed once to die, all i know is that the dead in Christ will rise first and then we (alive) will be caught up. I will admit that the mystery of Elijah and Enoch and those who are alive at Christ return is not something that i am an expert at. There is much i dont understand about that. But i do understand we are saved by grace thru faith. Deepr than that, unless we are born again we cannot enter the kingdom.

Thats why i believe the thief was saved, beause he was born again. His faith, confession, etc, was a result of a new heart imo. imo and by reading Scripture, it seems that the important thing is to BE a good tree. to BE a sheep. The thief WAS a sheep. It is BEING that saves us, not doing. How are we made a sheep? by faith. More accurately, by recieving a new heart, becoming a new creation. Doing proves to others that we are what we are. but doing does not save us, it is who we are that determines where we end up.

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 06:23 PM
reformedct--- If not for Luther we might all be Catholics right now

How is the church any better off with Luther's reformantion than it was with Catholicism? Everyone says that Catholics are way off base, so is the reformation.

Seems funny that Luther denigrated the books that speak of works and obedience, yet praises the books that speak of grace through faith.


Reformed---John Calvin is not the only one who agrees with this interpretation. There are others. The interpretation makes much sense to me. God ahs already been known to the Jews as the vinedresser of Israel, Gods vine. Then Jesus comes along and says i am the "true" vine. Im not throwing out Jesus teachings bro just caaaallllm down lol. We are brothers in Christ lets try to interact with more love than accusation.

If God has continually reffered to Israel as His vine in the OT, then Jesus comes along and says i am the true vine, call me crazy, but i see a connection. Also, in Romans also refers to the Jews being broken off branches. Therefore i am very comfortable and confident that my view is indeed correct. I would even go as far to say that the vine represents the promises of God. Israel was the recipient of the promises of God and now Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise. All those who do not abide in Jesus are cut off from the promises, cut off from the true Israel


The interpretation doesn't matter, the issue was being able to do a good work if one was lost, which is what the verse was psoted against.

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 06:27 PM
How is the church any better off with Luther's reformantion than it was with Catholicism? Everyone says that Catholics are way off base, so is the reformation.


so, just in curiosity, which "part" of Christianity do you think is right? if not Catholicsm, and not the reformation, who do you think got it right? Perhaps the methodists or John Wesley? Maybe Augustine? Not to say you are right or wrong but im just wondering who you think "got it right" or which teachers of the past or today have it "right"? Which teachers have you learned much from? Of course we can say we dont learn from any man but from the bible alone, the only problem is that everyone thinks they have the right interpretation. If your answer is the Bible alone, how do you know if your interpretation is correct?


Also, as i said i dont agree with Luther throwing out those books. please dont throw reformed theology all on Luther. He started it, but many reformers came after him with more refined teaching

BroRog
Jan 13th 2009, 06:35 PM
There have been a lot of posts lately devoted to a discussion of good works as it relates to faith and being a Christian. I haven't read them all, so I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet. But I feel like we need to get some clarity on this issue in order to move forward.

I believe we need to make a distinction between "works of faith" and "works of mercy".

Works of mercy:

To feed the hungry, dress the poor, build shelters, provide humanitarian aid, famine relief, flood relief, and tsunami relief are all acts of mercy and kindness. Treating other human beings as we would want to be treated in righteousness and goodness is appropriate no matter if one is religious, a believer, a Christian, or what-have-you. These kinds of things fall under the category of human kindness and decency, which transcends religion, race, ethnicity, nationality, and economics. Each human being should love other human beings, wish them well, and give them aid out of a sense of moral obligation.

Works of faith:

I am morally obligated to love my neighbor, to treat him or her with mutual self respect, and to act in kindness and mercy toward him or her when I am able to do so. These acts arise out of my moral obligation to each and every human being alive.

Acts of faith, however, have a different focus and arise from a different basis. Abraham's act of faith was not motivated by a general principle of moral obligation. In fact, from an ethical point of view, his attempted child sacrifice was as unethical as it can get. Abraham may have not known why God wanted to test his faith in this way, to put his own son on the alter, but he understood that since Isaac was the child of promise, God must be able to bring Isaac back to life.

Works, deeds, acts of faith are not necessarily acts of mercy. Acts of faith don't necessarily communicate our love for God through acts of kindness to humanity. Rather, acts of faith communicate our commitment to the propositions of our faith.

This is why Jesus can say things like, "if you are not willing to forgive each other, God is not willing to forgive you." (paraphrase) Why is that? Why has Jesus associated our willingness to forgive with God's willingness to forgive? It has to do with our commitment to the propositions of our faith, namely, that we are sinners in need of mercy and we are no different than our neighbor. And so, if we truly want forgiveness for ourselves, then we should expect to grant forgiveness to others.

Acts of faith are actions we take in order to specifically communicate those beliefs of which we are truly committed. When James says that our works demonstrate our faith, he isn't talking about works of mercy, which communicate our love for others. He is talking about our works of faith, which communicate our commitment to what we believe. If, for instance, we give deference to rich folks because of what they can do for us, but treat those less fortunate than us with contempt, then our actions communicate our belief that some people are more worthy of our attention than others, and that we should continually look out for our own interests above the interests of others.

But if we give a man a drink of water, not knowing or caring if that man is rich or poor or an angel, then our act of kindness communicates our commitment to the proposition that all men are equal in God's sight. I am no more or no less worthy of love than my neighbor and it doesn't matter what their economic status is.

An act of mercy communicates our commitment to love. An act of faith communicates our commitment to a particular proposition of our faith. Sometimes the difference can be subtle, but an act of faith doesn't necessarily amount to an act of kindness or mercy, because any aspect of our faith can be tested, not just our love for God.

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 06:47 PM
There have been a lot of posts lately devoted to a discussion of good works as it relates to faith and being a Christian. I haven't read them all, so I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet. But I feel like we need to get some clarity on this issue in order to move forward.

I believe we need to make a distinction between "works of faith" and "works of mercy".

Works of mercy:

To feed the hungry, dress the poor, build shelters, provide humanitarian aid, famine relief, flood relief, and tsunami relief are all acts of mercy and kindness. Treating other human beings as we would want to be treated in righteousness and goodness is appropriate no matter if one is religious, a believer, a Christian, or what-have-you. These kinds of things fall under the category of human kindness and decency, which transcends religion, race, ethnicity, nationality, and economics. Each human being should love other human beings, wish them well, and give them aid out of a sense of moral obligation.

Works of faith:

I am morally obligated to love my neighbor, to treat him or her with mutual self respect, and to act in kindness and mercy toward him or her when I am able to do so. These acts arise out of my moral obligation to each and every human being alive.

Acts of faith, however, have a different focus and arise from a different basis. Abraham's act of faith was not motivated by a general principle of moral obligation. In fact, from an ethical point of view, his attempted child sacrifice was as unethical as it can get. Abraham may have not known why God wanted to test his faith in this way, to put his own son on the alter, but he understood that since Isaac was the child of promise, God must be able to bring Isaac back to life.

Works, deeds, acts of faith are not necessarily acts of mercy. Acts of faith don't necessarily communicate our love for God through acts of kindness to humanity. Rather, acts of faith communicate our commitment to the propositions of our faith.

This is why Jesus can say things like, "if you are not willing to forgive each other, God is not willing to forgive you." (paraphrase) Why is that? Why has Jesus associated our willingness to forgive with God's willingness to forgive? It has to do with our commitment to the propositions of our faith, namely, that we are sinners in need of mercy and we are no different than our neighbor. And so, if we truly want forgiveness for ourselves, then we should expect to grant forgiveness to others.

Acts of faith are actions we take in order to specifically communicate those beliefs of which we are truly committed. When James says that our works demonstrate our faith, he isn't talking about works of mercy, which communicate our love for others. He is talking about our works of faith, which communicate our commitment to what we believe. If, for instance, we give deference to rich folks because of what they can do for us, but treat those less fortunate than us with contempt, then our actions communicate our belief that some people are more worthy of our attention than others, and that we should continually look out for our own interests above the interests of others.

But if we give a man a drink of water, not knowing or caring if that man is rich or poor or an angel, then our act of kindness communicates our commitment to the proposition that all men are equal in God's sight. I am no more or no less worthy of love than my neighbor and it doesn't matter what their economic status is.

An act of mercy communicates our commitment to love. An act of faith communicates our commitment to a particular proposition of our faith. Sometimes the difference can be subtle, but an act of faith doesn't necessarily amount to an act of kindness or mercy, because any aspect of our faith can be tested, not just our love for God.


i would also have to disagree with some of these although i do agree with much. Are Christians under a moral obligation to do "works of mercy"? Absolutely. Do we become saved or "more saved" by doing those works? No.

I base this on the account of the new nature of the true Christian. The true Christian has a new nature and is born of the Spirit. He has a new heart. Out of that heart comes faith and works of mercy. The works of mercy dont save but rather they accompany the same heart that breeds true faith. That is why if we dont forgive others God will not forgive us. It was a moral principle, it doesnt actually mean that if someone makes me mad today and i hesitate to forgive them for 1 second that now im going to burn in hell. Many times Jesus is teaching a moral principle, such as plucking our eye out. He didnt literally mean to start maiming ourselves. he was making a point. As John says, if one does not have love for his brother, how can the love of God be in him? the issue is being born again aka the doctrine of regeneration

Its why the sheep, and good tree are blessed of God. Notice Jesus clearly says a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. He did not say a good tree can produce fruit for awhile but if it stops and then produces bad fruit it is cut down. which branches, trees, or people are cut down? The ones who NEVER produce good fruit. WHy? because they are bad trees.

It is an issue of who we are. If we forgive others God will forgive us. Why? Because the person who forgives is a good tree. This doesnt mean we will never sin, as james said we all stumble in many ways. Even Peter still struggled with the fear of man and hypocrisy after recieving the Holy Spirit.

"Acts of faith are actions we take in order to specifically communicate those beliefs of which we are truly committed. When James says that our works demonstrate our faith, he isn't talking about works of mercy, which communicate our love for others. He is talking about our works of faith, which communicate our commitment to what we believe."


i definetly agreee with this. If we believe we will act. But we are not saved because of the works that proceed from our faith, as if we can somehow do enough "good" to merit salvation. Abraham believed God and was counted righteous. What had Abraham done before that point? nothing really. He was righteous before the incident that James talked about, so obviously when James says justified he is not referring to being made righteous. He is saying how we are justified by a living faith that produces works. In this way we are justified by faith and works. Because genuine faith comes from a changed heart that also causes us to do good and to have works of faith

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 06:49 PM
There have been a lot of posts lately devoted to a discussion of good works as it relates to faith and being a Christian. I haven't read them all, so I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet. But I feel like we need to get some clarity on this issue in order to move forward.

I believe we need to make a distinction between "works of faith" and "works of mercy".

Works of mercy:

To feed the hungry, dress the poor, build shelters, provide humanitarian aid, famine relief, flood relief, and tsunami relief are all acts of mercy and kindness. Treating other human beings as we would want to be treated in righteousness and goodness is appropriate no matter if one is religious, a believer, a Christian, or what-have-you. These kinds of things fall under the category of human kindness and decency, which transcends religion, race, ethnicity, nationality, and economics. Each human being should love other human beings, wish them well, and give them aid out of a sense of moral obligation.

Works of faith:

I am morally obligated to love my neighbor, to treat him or her with mutual self respect, and to act in kindness and mercy toward him or her when I am able to do so. These acts arise out of my moral obligation to each and every human being alive.

Acts of faith, however, have a different focus and arise from a different basis. Abraham's act of faith was not motivated by a general principle of moral obligation. In fact, from an ethical point of view, his attempted child sacrifice was as unethical as it can get. Abraham may have not known why God wanted to test his faith in this way, to put his own son on the alter, but he understood that since Isaac was the child of promise, God must be able to bring Isaac back to life.

Works, deeds, acts of faith are not necessarily acts of mercy. Acts of faith don't necessarily communicate our love for God through acts of kindness to humanity. Rather, acts of faith communicate our commitment to the propositions of our faith.

This is why Jesus can say things like, "if you are not willing to forgive each other, God is not willing to forgive you." (paraphrase) Why is that? Why has Jesus associated our willingness to forgive with God's willingness to forgive? It has to do with our commitment to the propositions of our faith, namely, that we are sinners in need of mercy and we are no different than our neighbor. And so, if we truly want forgiveness for ourselves, then we should expect to grant forgiveness to others.

Acts of faith are actions we take in order to specifically communicate those beliefs of which we are truly committed. When James says that our works demonstrate our faith, he isn't talking about works of mercy, which communicate our love for others. He is talking about our works of faith, which communicate our commitment to what we believe. If, for instance, we give deference to rich folks because of what they can do for us, but treat those less fortunate than us with contempt, then our actions communicate our belief that some people are more worthy of our attention than others, and that we should continually look out for our own interests above the interests of others.

But if we give a man a drink of water, not knowing or caring if that man is rich or poor or an angel, then our act of kindness communicates our commitment to the proposition that all men are equal in God's sight. I am no more or no less worthy of love than my neighbor and it doesn't matter what their economic status is.

An act of mercy communicates our commitment to love. An act of faith communicates our commitment to a particular proposition of our faith. Sometimes the difference can be subtle, but an act of faith doesn't necessarily amount to an act of kindness or mercy, because any aspect of our faith can be tested, not just our love for God.


i would also have to disagree with some of these although i do agree with much. Are Christians under a moral obligation to do "works of mercy"? Absolutely. Do we become saved or "more saved" by doing those works? No.

I base this on the account of the new nature of the true Christian. The true Christian has a new nature and is born of the Spirit. He has a new heart. Out of that heart comes faith and works of mercy. The works of mercy dont save but rather they accompany the same heart that breeds true faith. That is why if we dont forgive others God will not forgive us. It was a moral principle, it doesnt actually mean that if someone makes me mad today and i hesitate to forgive them for 1 second that now im going to burn in hell. Many times Jesus is teaching a moral principle, such as plucking our eye out. He didnt literally mean to start maiming ourselves. he was making a point. As John says, if one does not have love for his brother, how can the love of God be in him? the issue is being born again aka the doctrine of regeneration

Its why the sheep, and good tree are blessed of God. Notice Jesus clearly says a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. He did not say a good tree can produce fruit for awhile but if it stops and then produces bad fruit it is cut down. which branches, trees, or people are cut down? The ones who NEVER produce good fruit. WHy? because they are bad trees.

It is an issue of who we are. If we forgive others God will forgive us. Why? Because the person who forgives is a good tree. This doesnt mean we will never sin, as james said we all stumble in many ways. Even Peter still struggled with the fear of man and hypocrisy after recieving the Holy Spirit.

"Acts of faith are actions we take in order to specifically communicate those beliefs of which we are truly committed. When James says that our works demonstrate our faith, he isn't talking about works of mercy, which communicate our love for others. He is talking about our works of faith, which communicate our commitment to what we believe."


i definetly agreee with this. If we believe we will act. But we are not saved because of the works that proceed from our faith, as if we can somehow do enough "good" to merit salvation. Abraham believed God and was counted righteous. What had Abraham done before that point? nothing really. He was righteous BEFORE any "acts of faith". He was righteous before he even got circumscised. He was righteous before he offered Isaac. He was righteous before the incident that James talked about, so obviously when James says justified he is not referring to being made righteous. He is saying how we are justified by a living faith that produces works. In this way we are justified by faith and works. Because genuine faith comes from a changed heart that also causes us to do good and to have works of faith

All that being said this is just my view and i cannot force it on you all. I also respect your interpretation BroRog, we are not far off from each other

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 06:54 PM
hmm, so, just in curiosity, which "part" of Christianity do you think is right? if not Catholicsm, and not the reformation, who do you think got it right? Perhaps the methodists or John Wesley? Maybe Augustine? Not to say you are right or wrong but im just wondering who you think "got it right" or which teachers of the past or today have it "right"?

The ones that I think "most likely", (notice I said most likely) have the Scriptures correct are, Clement of Rome (companion of Paul), Ignatius (disciple of John), Polycarp (disciple of John), Mathetes (a disciple of the apostles), Papias (contemporary of the apostles), Barnabas (may have been the apostle), Irenaeus (disciple of Polycarp) Justin Martyr, and Tertullian.

They were there.

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 07:04 PM
so, just in curiosity, which "part" of Christianity do you think is right? if not Catholicsm, and not the reformation, who do you think got it right? Perhaps the methodists or John Wesley? Maybe Augustine? Not to say you are right or wrong but im just wondering who you think "got it right" or which teachers of the past or today have it "right"? Which teachers have you learned much from? Of course we can say we dont learn from any man but from the bible alone, the only problem is that everyone thinks they have the right interpretation. If your answer is the Bible alone, how do you know if your interpretation is correct?


Also, as i said i dont agree with Luther throwing out those books. please dont throw reformed theology all on Luther. He started it, but many reformers came after him with more refined teaching

My understanding doesn't come only from the Bible, I look at the Scriptures, then I look at how they were understood by those to whom they were written.

Jemand
Jan 13th 2009, 07:14 PM
Paul is not speaking of fruit, he is speaking of salvation. If you continue to read in Ephesians 2 you will see that the works Paul is speaking of in 2:8 are the works of the Law.


Ephesians 2:11-17 ( KJV ) 11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.



14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.





Paul goes on to tell the Ephesians how it is that they are not saved by works. He tells them that Christ in the flesh abolished the "law of commandments contained in ordinances", this is the Mosaic law. So, in verse 8 Paul is actually saying that they were not saved by the works of the law. He is not saying there is nothing we do for salvation.




Amen!

Circumcision was a very important part of the Old Testament covenant of Law that in the Jewish mind separated Jews from Gentiles. The earliest Christians were all Jews and Christianity was understood by them to be a sect of Judaism. Therefore it was very difficult for them to accept the idea that an uncircumcised Gentile could be a Christian no matter how much he believed in Jesus. Explaining this mystery to both the Jews and Gentiles was one of Paul’s major goals and objectives, and hence a major theme in his Epistles to the Romans, the Galatians, and the Ephesians.

When Paul wrote of “works” that he contrasted with grace and faith, he was always referring to the works of the Law, that is, the Old Testament covenant of Law as opposed to the New Testament covenant of grace:

Gal. 2:16. nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Gal. 3:2. This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3. Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4. Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5. So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Gal. 3:9. So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Rom. 3:27. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

And compare the following:

Gal. 2:21. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Gal. 5:4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal. 5:11. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.

Gal. 6:12. Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14. But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Rom. 9:30. What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31. but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33. just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Therefore, the “works” that Paul wrote of in Eph. 2:9 were not the “good works” that Jesus taught one must perform (Mark 10:17-30; Luke 10:25-37) or the good works that James taught one must perform to be justified and saved (James 2:14-26) or the good works that we read of in the faith chapter in the New Testament (Heb. 11), but works of the Law and circumcision in particular.

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 07:27 PM
Amen!

Circumcision was a very important part of the Old Testament covenant of Law that in the Jewish mind separated Jews from Gentiles. The earliest Christians were all Jews and Christianity was understood by them to be a sect of Judaism. Therefore it was very difficult for them to accept the idea that an uncircumcised Gentile could be a Christian no matter how much he believed in Jesus. Explaining this mystery to both the Jews and Gentiles was one of Paul’s major goals and objectives, and hence a major theme in his Epistles to the Romans, the Galatians, and the Ephesians.

When Paul wrote of “works” that he contrasted with grace and faith, he was always referring to the works of the Law, that is, the Old Testament covenant of Law as opposed to the New Testament covenant of grace:

Gal. 2:16. nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Gal. 3:2. This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3. Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4. Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5. So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Gal. 3:9. So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Rom. 3:27. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

And compare the following:

Gal. 2:21. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Gal. 5:4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal. 5:11. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.

Gal. 6:12. Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14. But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Rom. 9:30. What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31. but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33. just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Therefore, the “works” that Paul wrote of in Eph. 2:9 were not the “good works” that Jesus taught one must perform (Mark 10:17-30; Luke 10:25-37) or the good works that James taught one must perform to be justified and saved (James 2:14-26) or the good works that we read of in the faith chapter in the New Testament (Heb. 11), but works of the Law and circumcision in particular.

Well said my friend, it is so clear, I wonder why many won't see it.

Jemand
Jan 13th 2009, 08:04 PM
AS far as the vastness of Christianity, there are a ton of false believers here in America. However its not like if we dont do the certain list from a parable we are not saved. I have donated clothing in the past and i have also been to a jail before for a friend but i have not yet visited someone sick. Does that mean i am not saved? no. Its deeper than that. Fruit also includes the (singular) fruit of the Spirit. A fruit that bears patience, kindness, love long-suffering, etc. Those are just examples of what the new creature looks like

I never said dead faith or non-existent faith is still saved? dead faith or non-existent faith cannot saved and anyone who has dead or non-existent faith is not saved.

i was only talking to Butch about how faith is enough and using the thief as an example. I in no way meant to say that its Ok if none of us do works just sit and believe lol i hope thats not how it sounded. My point was to prove we are saved by faith. we are judged by works because they are fruit of who we are. The fruit does not save, the faith does. thats all i was saying. All of us should strive to do good orks as God leads but that doesnt mean we should have the mindset that by doing these things i will have right standing. Our mindset should be, i have right-standing, therefore i will serve with joy and gladness, giving cheerfuly and without reserve.

Its not like by doing good things we clean up our own righteousness to look good on judgement day. As Paul said in Phillipians 3, he wanted to be found in a righteousness other than his own, the righteousness from God that comes by faith

By faith we already recieve the righteousness that comes from God

The thief was righteous by faith

The grace of God is the dynamic of God by and through which He saves us from sin and its consequences through faith. An integral part of that faith is our volitional obedience to Christ, including the performance of the works that he commands us to perform. The Scriptures tell us nothing of any disobedience to Christ on the part of the thief on the cross once he had believed. Had there been disobedience to Christ without repentance, the fate of the thief would have been very different.

wtj
Jan 19th 2009, 07:39 PM
We are neither saved for good works/neither are we saved because of good works/we are saved for the glory of God.

Concerning being saved - we are not saved by works – yet we are not saved without works.

those of - and in the old nature - who seek to keep the righteousness of the works of the of the law are unable to do so and come under the curse of the law – he who sins shall die. yet in the new nature in Christ and with the Holy Spirit one is able to keep the righteousness of the works of the law. For the Spirit of God establishes Faith, and Faith produces works according to the will of God. And without these works it is a witness that one hath not the Spirit of God. Jesus with the Spirit kept the works of the law – sinneth not.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14:12

keck553
Jan 19th 2009, 09:16 PM
why is it so difficult for some to separate salvation from obedience? It really puzzles me.

Jemand
Jan 19th 2009, 09:41 PM
why is it so difficult for some to separate salvation from obedience? It really puzzles me.

Perhaps it is so difficult for some people because obedience to Christ is necessary for salvation.

Mark 10:17. As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
18. And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
19. "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.' "
20. And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up."
21. Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22. But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
23. And Jesus, looking around, *said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!"
24. The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus *answered again and *said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
25. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26. They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"
27. Looking at them, Jesus *said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
28. Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."
29. Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,
30. but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Luke 10:25. And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"
27. And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
28. And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."
29. But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30. Jesus replied and said, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead.
31. "And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32. "Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33. "But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,
34. and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
35. "On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'
36. "Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"
37. And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same." (NASB, 1995)

My heart's Desire
Jan 19th 2009, 09:43 PM
I can't find the verse right off and maybe someone has already referred to it but I believe that God has already prepared the good works that we are individually to do and that any other work will not count (for lack of a good way of saying it). We (as Christians) are to do the work God has already prepared. It is regards our walk and not our salvation.
Regardless, the verses that speak alot to me are Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

As in 1Cor. 3 Our works are being built upon the foundation which has already been laid and that foundation is Christ.
I almost believe that alot of the rewards are characterized by the crowns which can be received.
I can't find all the scriptures but I almost believe by some of the things Paul said to those who he preached to ,he believed that his reward had to do with those saved in relation to his preaching and manner of life.

crystalbrite
Jan 19th 2009, 10:08 PM
Since not much of those biblical good works are not being done (they really aren't if we're honest) then what does that say about those "saved?" Hopefully folks will at least ponder that point.

I think Christians are doing them. It comes along in drips and drabs at times, but I think thoughtful Christians try. Much of "good works" is expressed by attitude, IMHO.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 19th 2009, 10:22 PM
I can't find the verse right off and maybe someone has already referred to it but I believe that God has already prepared the good works that we are individually to do and that any other work will not count (for lack of a good way of saying it). We (as Christians) are to do the work God has already prepared. It is regards our walk and not our salvation.
Regardless, the verses that speak alot to me are Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

As in 1Cor. 3 Our works are being built upon the foundation which has already been laid and that foundation is Christ.
I almost believe that alot of the rewards are characterized by the crowns which can be received.
I can't find all the scriptures but I almost believe by some of the things Paul said to those who he preached to ,he believed that his reward had to do with those saved in relation to his preaching and manner of life.


This may be the verse your referring to..



For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


before, ordained, :
proetoimazō
greek word which means:

to prepare before, to make ready beforehand



Who prepared these works 'before hand'? God Himself.. that we should 'walk in them' as Christians.. its not our works.. but His. He ordained them.. taking I/Me out of the equation.. so that no one can boast.. they are His Works.. that we should walk 'in them'.. as a Chrisitan He will direct and guide you into His Works.. giving you the strength and wisdom to the work of Faith with power...

If you want to study the 'root word etymology it makes it even more clear... those are 4253 and 2090

keck553
Jan 19th 2009, 10:46 PM
Perhaps it is so difficult for some people because obedience to Christ is necessary for salvation.

Mark 10:17. As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
18. And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
19. "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.' "
20. And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up."
21. Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22. But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

What the rich man was doing was asking what Torah commands brought him eternal life. As Jesus was listing them, the man interupted, stopped Him short and said "I am doing these things". But as Jesus went on and to complete the REST OF the Torah commands (paraphrasing), the man became sad because he thought he could cherry pick the ones that worked for him. Who doesn't do this? We all do it.

The term "Follow me" is a standard rabbinical jargon for choosing a disciple. What set Jesus apart from all the other rabbis is that He accepted anyone.

Basically what Jesus told the rich man that if he didn't observe the fullness of Torah; if he wasn't willing to give up his worldly stuff and obey God's commands his heart wasn't 'cirmcumsized' and his faith was short of salvation.



23. And Jesus, looking around, *said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!"
24. The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus *answered again and *said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
25. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26. They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"
27. Looking at them, Jesus *said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
28. Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."
29. Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,
30. but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

And how true this remains today, yes?


Luke 10:25. And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"
27. And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
28. And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."
29. But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30. Jesus replied and said, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead.
31. "And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32. "Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33. "But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,
34. and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
35. "On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'
36. "Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"
37. And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same." (NASB, 1995)

Yes, another example of cherry picking Torah. Remember that Jesus gave Torah to Moses.

My heart's Desire
Jan 20th 2009, 05:52 AM
This may be the verse your referring to..



For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


before, ordained, :
proetoimazō
greek word which means:

to prepare before, to make ready beforehand



Who prepared these works 'before hand'? God Himself.. that we should 'walk in them' as Christians.. its not our works.. but His. He ordained them.. taking I/Me out of the equation.. so that no one can boast.. they are His Works.. that we should walk 'in them'.. as a Chrisitan He will direct and guide you into His Works.. giving you the strength and wisdom to the work of Faith with power...

If you want to study the 'root word etymology it makes it even more clear... those are 4253 and 2090

Yes, thank you I believe that is it.

My heart's Desire
Jan 20th 2009, 06:11 AM
What the rich man was doing was asking what Torah commands brought him eternal life. As Jesus was listing them, the man interupted, stopped Him short and said "I am doing these things". But as Jesus went on and to complete the REST OF the Torah commands (paraphrasing), the man became sad because he thought he could cherry pick the ones that worked for him. Who doesn't do this? We all do it.

The term "Follow me" is a standard rabbinical jargon for choosing a disciple. What set Jesus apart from all the other rabbis is that He accepted anyone.

Basically what Jesus told the rich man that if he didn't observe the fullness of Torah; if he wasn't willing to give up his worldly stuff and obey God's commands his heart wasn't 'cirmcumsized' and his faith was short of salvation.

I've heard a different slant to this one. The rich man probably thought that he had achieved eternal life by what he had done, obeying the commandments. But when Jesus asked him to sell all his possessions and give to the poor, the result showed the condition of his heart, (as you've said). The Law will always show what you lack. A change of heart and mind will show what you really possess.

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2009, 01:44 PM
What the rich man was doing was asking what Torah commands brought him eternal life. As Jesus was listing them, the man interupted, stopped Him short and said "I am doing these things". But as Jesus went on and to complete the REST OF the Torah commands (paraphrasing), the man became sad because he thought he could cherry pick the ones that worked for him. Who doesn't do this? We all do it.

The term "Follow me" is a standard rabbinical jargon for choosing a disciple. What set Jesus apart from all the other rabbis is that He accepted anyone.

Basically what Jesus told the rich man that if he didn't observe the fullness of Torah; if he wasn't willing to give up his worldly stuff and obey God's commands his heart wasn't 'cirmcumsized' and his faith was short of salvation.



And how true this remains today, yes?


Yes, another example of cherry picking Torah. Remember that Jesus gave Torah to Moses.Where do any of those accounts say that the man interrupted Jesus? Where does it say the man cherry picked anything? I'll give you the answer... it doesn't.

What Jesus told him was that if he wanted to be perfect then sell his possessions, give it to the poor and come... follow me. You'll not find that in the Torah. ;)