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shootingdead
Jan 11th 2009, 05:07 PM
are these..

Revelation 14:13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

these..

Revelation 20:4..And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

shootingdead
Jan 11th 2009, 05:20 PM
title should more accurately read as above

vinsight4u8
Jan 11th 2009, 05:42 PM
See how there are two groups in that verse?
------------------
Rev. 20:4 they - and then the tribulation martyrs

"And I saw thrones, and they sat...and [I saw]...them that were beheaded..."

vinsight4u8
Jan 11th 2009, 05:51 PM
John has already told us further back something as to the "they" people.

-----------
Skip back to 19:14 where "armies" come down from heaven.
----------------
Then see how only a single (one) army goes to the battle?

-----------------
Rev. 19:19
"...to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."
--------------
"they sat" - in Rev. 20
His army sits to reign in Rev. 20.
After John saw this from the battle army of saints - he then saw that the great tribulation martyrs (the other army that came from heaven back in v14) will join them.

vinsight4u8
Jan 11th 2009, 06:10 PM
title should more accurately read as above


Yes those of Rev. 14 that die for the Lord are the great tribulation saints of Rev. 20:4 - and they join the rest of the saints to reign for the 1000 years.

In Rev. 14 comes the time for the Lord to reap the earth - harvest time.
-------------
resurrection of the saints
rapture
7th trumpet time

Before the vials begin to get poured out.

vinsight4u8
Jan 11th 2009, 06:53 PM
You haven't replied, so I guess my comments weren't what you were looking for.
---------------

So I'll leave this thread -and just want to note that at the start of Rev. 19 - begins a new section.

"after"

So take Rev. 19 and spilt it apart from chapter 18.

[Rev. 18.....]

"And after these things"
[Rev. 19........20.........]

Then note at what point Rev. 19 opens - What word is being said that ties in with Hebrews 9:28?

Salvation

------------it is time for Jesus Christ to appear.

shootingdead
Jan 11th 2009, 07:17 PM
See how there are two groups in that verse?
------------------
Rev. 20:4 they - and then the tribulation martyrs

"And I saw thrones, and they sat...and [I saw]...them that were beheaded..."i deliberately did not include in the verses quoted in the opening post the first part of 20:4 because i was not referring to this group.

shootingdead
Jan 11th 2009, 07:22 PM
John has already told us further back something as to the "they" people.

-----------
Skip back to 19:14 where "armies" come down from heaven.
----------------
Then see how only a single (one) army goes to the battle?

-----------------
Rev. 19:19
"...to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."
--------------
"they sat" - in Rev. 20
His army sits to reign in Rev. 20.
After John saw this from the battle army of saints - he then saw that the great tribulation martyrs (the other army that came from heaven back in v14) will join them.i cannot see that Rev 20 mentions or makes any inference to the army in chapter 19 that you seem to be saying is there, please can you elaborate on this?

shootingdead
Jan 11th 2009, 07:26 PM
Yes those of Rev. 14 that die for the Lord are the great tribulation saints of Rev. 20:4 - and they join the rest of the saints to reign for the 1000 years.

In Rev. 14 comes the time for the Lord to reap the earth - harvest time.
-------------
resurrection of the saints
rapture
7th trumpet time

Before the vials begin to get poured out.again i cannot see where it says the rest of the saints are in the 1000 years. on the contrary it says 'The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.'

shootingdead
Jan 11th 2009, 07:40 PM
You haven't replied, so I guess my comments weren't what you were looking for.
---------------

So I'll leave this thread -and just want to note that at the start of Rev. 19 - begins a new section.

"after"

So take Rev. 19 and spilt it apart from chapter 18.

[Rev. 18.....]

"And after these things"
[Rev. 19........20.........]

Then note at what point Rev. 19 opens - What word is being said that ties in with Hebrews 9:28?

Salvation

------------it is time for Jesus Christ to appear.give me a chance please i haven't been away from my computer very long, your comments are appreciated thanks. even if chapter 20 continues from chapter 19 does it necessarily mean that the army in 19 are present with those martyred in the tribulation in the millennium in chapter 20?

shootingdead
Jan 11th 2009, 07:50 PM
Revelation 19:14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

are 'the armies of heaven' saints? could they be angels?

quiet dove
Jan 11th 2009, 08:05 PM
Revelation 19:14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

are 'the armies of heaven' saints? could they be angels?

We are told in 19:7-8, who the saints are in v14, the saved, resurrected in Christ, immortal/incorruptible.

ross3421
Jan 11th 2009, 08:14 PM
Revelation 19:14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

are 'the armies of heaven' saints? could they be angels?

What are we apart from the body, spirits. Are angels not spirits? Yes.

This is why some text says angels and others say saints. Same group.

shootingdead
Jan 11th 2009, 08:38 PM
We are told in 19:7-8, who the saints are in v14, the saved, resurrected in Christ, immortal/incorruptible.

where does it say this?

Revelation 19:7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

it doesn't mention saved, resurrected or immortal/incorruptible?

shootingdead
Jan 11th 2009, 08:44 PM
What are we apart from the body, spirits. Are angels not spirits? Yes.

This is why some text says angels and others say saints. Same group.thanks presumably souls are part of the body? do you think when it says about the ones who are brought back to life in the 1000 years that this means these are the only ones who are given new bodies at that time?

quiet dove
Jan 12th 2009, 01:05 AM
where does it say this?

Revelation 19:7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

it doesn't mention saved, resurrected or immortal/incorruptible?


Those of v8 are wearing fine linen, fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints, not angels. Angles are not in the context.

DurbanDude
Jan 12th 2009, 03:32 AM
are these..

Revelation 14:13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

these..

Revelation 20:4..And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I believe they are the same group, and they will reign

vinsight4u8
Jan 13th 2009, 04:41 AM
i cannot see that Rev 20 mentions or makes any inference to the army in chapter 19 that you seem to be saying is there, please can you elaborate on this?


Rev. 20:4
"...they sat....and I saw..."

John is seeing two groups of people.

--------------
Because John referenced the one group as "they", he must have already told his readers about them. We now back up in the verses and discover what group he meant.

-----------------
We find that wicked armies were mentioned and they were slain - the beast and the false prophet end up in the lake of fire

Satan is bound by an angel that comes down from heaven.

But---------we had yet to find out what became of the army that fought on God's behalf.

19:19
"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth....gathered to make war...and against his army."

"his army"
God's army is at the battle.
19:14 shows plural armies came down from heaven.

Yet - at the battle there is now only one of those armies.

Rev. 20:4
"....they sat...."
The verse then continues and the great tribulation martyrs - beheaded people - join them.

So the beheaded people are the other army that came down from heaven - but didn't go fight as His army at the battle of Armageddon; for they had already been victorious over the beast.


Rev. 15:2
"...them that had gotten the victory over the beast..."

DIZZY
Jan 13th 2009, 11:25 AM
It amazes me how something that is so simple can be so mixed up.

Those in Rev 20:4 are the church who judges the nations.

1 Corinthians 6:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

The martyred saints will reign with the church saints and with Christ during the 1000yrs.

What about that army or armies that return with the Lord.

Revelation 19:11-16
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Ther are a number of groups that form the Lords armies.

1. the church saints
2. the tribulation saints
3. The angels of the Lord

These three groups return with the Lord in rev 19.

But it is the Lord who fights the nations not the armies of the Lord. It is the word that comes forth out of the Lord's mouth that strikes the nations down.

vinsight4u8
Jan 13th 2009, 11:39 AM
Are you sure any angels are in those armies?

Look at what attire they wear?
John never places that as on angels.

Also, if the angels fight the beast - then they too should have the right to reign.

Plus, Rev. 20 does not begin as in - I saw another angel come down from heaven.."

another angel
but has

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven..."


Hebrews even shows that angels are not to rule once Christ is about to return.

shootingdead
Jan 13th 2009, 06:54 PM
Because John referenced the one group as "they", he must have already told his readers about them. We now back up in the verses and discover what group he meant.
is the 'they' you are refering to the one in bold below?

Revelation 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

i think this 'they' is refering to 'the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God', not the army in Revelation 19.

shootingdead
Jan 13th 2009, 07:01 PM
Those in Rev 20:4 are the church who judges the nations.

1 Corinthians 6:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

The martyred saints will reign with the church saints and with Christ during the 1000yrs.in 1 Corinthians 6 it says the saints will judge the world but in Rev 20.4 it says 'They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years'

is judge and reign the same thing? could the 1 Corinthian's 6 passage be referring to another situation?

vinsight4u8
Jan 14th 2009, 12:23 PM
is the 'they' you are refering to the one in bold below?

Revelation 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

i think this 'they' is refering to 'the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God', not the army in Revelation 19.


In the version you are using look at where it has "those". "...seated those...And I saw..."

John is letting us know that he sees two groups of people at this time.

those
&
the beheaded great tribulaton martyrs

Since John said "those" at the start of the verse - John must have given us the information as to where he already saw them a bit back, so we can go - Okay, here is where God's army from the battle is being seen by John again.


Armies - come down from heaven in v14. John saw armies - but only one of them goes to the battle to take down the beast. After the battle ends -"those" are seen by John to get seated to reign - and then the great tribulation martyred people (having already won their victory time over the beast by their death) get to sit down too.

armies - v 14
come from heaven
- so the saints had to go to heaven - as in the rapture had to occur before this time

After the marriage attire was given out to the saints in v 8, then soon John watched the saints as armies come down from heaven.

DIZZY
Jan 14th 2009, 11:39 PM
Are you sure any angels are in those armies?

Look at what attire they wear?
John never places that as on angels.

Also, if the angels fight the beast - then they too should have the right to reign.

Plus, Rev. 20 does not begin as in - I saw another angel come down from heaven.."

another angel
but has

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven..."


Hebrews even shows that angels are not to rule once Christ is about to return.

Hi vinsight4u8,
For a start who said the armies of the Lord do any fighting, I only see the Lord fighting. And another thing is it not up to God who reigns in the Millennial Kingdom.

You are the only one who presumes the angels should reign because they were in the battle, no one else has said that.

What about this angel in:

Revelation 19:17
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

and

Revelation 20:1,2
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

So these angels arn't apart of the battle when the Lord returns. I hate to say it but they do help with certain things.

Notice the saints don't do any fighting, they follow behind the Lord. The Lord is the one who strikes the nations with the word that proceeds out of His mouth.

God choses who reigns not man.

DIZZY
Jan 14th 2009, 11:49 PM
in 1 Corinthians 6 it says the saints will judge the world but in Rev 20.4 it says 'They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years'

is judge and reign the same thing? could the 1 Corinthian's 6 passage be referring to another situation?

Hi shootingdead,
I was thinking how am I going to answer this one then the thought of Moses entered my head.

Moses in the wilderness not only ruled over the people he judged them aswell. This is what will happen when the Lord returns with the saints. They will not only reign with the Lord but they will judge the world.

Exodus 18:13,14
13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, "What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?"

vinsight4u8
Jan 15th 2009, 10:41 AM
Hi DIZZY

John writes in Rev. 19:17
"And I saw an angel standing in the sun..."

not another angel standing in the sun
nor - did John see him come down from heaven

20:1
"And I saw an angel come down from heaven..."

not another angel come down from heaven


Rev. 10:1
"And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven..."

(This means he has already seen at least one sometime earlier do that same thing.)


Rev. 12;1
'And there appeared a great wonder in heaven..."
v3
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven..."
15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous..."


In Rev. 19 - saints get their marriage attire and then when heaven opens - they come down from heaven as "armies".
John did not place angels as being with them.

If they were - he would have to say in Rev. 20:1 - that he saw another angel come down from heaven.

Rev. 19:1
"And after these things..."

So we don't connect this part to Rev. 18. Rev. 19 is a separate section of its own.

It begins soon with the part as to "Salvation" is said. That should be our key to know the rapture of the church occurs here.
Next we find the taking down of the city that corrupted the earth - slew the martyrs.
Then all of the saints get their marriage attire.
Armies later come down from heaven in those outfits.
One army goes to the battle of Armageddon.
Then "they" are found again in Rev. 20:4 and the great tribulation martyrs join them to reign for 1000 years.

crush
Jan 15th 2009, 03:02 PM
It amazes me how something that is so simple can be so mixed up.


*agrees*

Jesus make a promises to his disciples in Mat 19:28

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1) that they will sit on 12 thrones
2) that they will Judge the 12 tribes of Israel
3) that they will execute this judgment during the time of "regeneration", or the "Messianic Restoration of Israel" - the millenium

3 very strong connections to those on thrones in Rev. 20:4

Jesus then goes on to make a promise to everyone else who follows him. That they will receive eternal life.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

But he qualifies this by saying that "the last will be first". Pretty much the same thing we see again in Rev 20:4-6. Those in the latter growth of the harvest are given eternal life in the "first resurrection" - the rest of the dead are judged and given eternal life or eternal damnation 1000 years later. Very simple.

Mat 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Jesus makes the promises in Mat 19:28-30, John sees these promises fulfilled in Rev 20:4-6.

cross crusader
Jan 16th 2009, 04:18 PM
are these..

Revelation 14:13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

these..

Revelation 20:4..And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
the tribulation martyrs are reigning right now

DIZZY
Jan 18th 2009, 09:29 PM
the tribulation martyrs are reigning right now

Have you seen Christ?