PDA

View Full Version : What does it mean to repent?



reformedct
Jan 11th 2009, 07:21 PM
Repent ye and believe the gospel

ive got believing the gospel down, but what does it mean to repent? does it just mean stop doing bad things? If thats so, when we sin or stumble, does that mean that when we repented it was false? is it more accurate to say repentance is a process? Dont we as Christians repent every day?

So what kind of repentance is Jesus talking about here? Repentance unto salvation is very fuzzy to me at times. Because all the Christians i kno will admit that they are not perfect. As James says: "we all stumble in many ways".

I will share my interpretation and you guys can affirm or correct me:

my interpretation is that repentance is when we accept Jesus as our Lord. It doesnt mean we never sin, but that Jesus is our King and He calls the shots in our lives instead of us. He says whats right and wrong not us. When we repent, we indentify ourselves in Christ instead of in other things. This leads to turning from sin, but it is not the turning from sin that saves us. We turn from a Christless, godless life, to a life with Christ as our Head

yaza
Jan 11th 2009, 07:48 PM
Repent ye and believe the gospel

ive got believing the gospel down, but what does it mean to repent? does it just mean stop doing bad things? If thats so, when we sin or stumble, does that mean that when we repented it was false? is it more accurate to say repentance is a process? Dont we as Christians repent every day?

So what kind of repentance is Jesus talking about here? Repentance unto salvation is very fuzzy to me at times. Because all the Christians i kno will admit that they are not perfect. As James says: "we all stumble in many ways".

I will share my interpretation and you guys can affirm or correct me:

my interpretation is that repentance is when we accept Jesus as our Lord. It doesnt mean we never sin, but that Jesus is our King and He calls the shots in our lives instead of us. He says whats right and wrong not us. When we repent, we indentify ourselves in Christ instead of in other things. This leads to turning from sin, but it is not the turning from sin that saves us. We turn from a Christless, godless life, to a life with Christ as our Head
yes, i would say that you have a pretty good understanding, repentance is the turning from your unbelief in christ only. it has nothing to do with our other sins, only the sin of unbelief in jesus which is the blasphemy of the holy spirit. remember the sins of the world have been taken away at the cross never to be seen again. now thats good news! god bless

Sirus
Jan 11th 2009, 08:05 PM
You got it!!!

I don't agree with repentance as a way of life-we do it everyday-its a condition of the heart, stuff. Once born again we have Christ in us the hope of glory, the author and finisher of our faith, who is more than able to finish in us what He started.

Heb 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

watchinginawe
Jan 11th 2009, 08:35 PM
Repent ye and believe the gospel

ive got believing the gospel down, but what does it mean to repent? does it just mean stop doing bad things? If thats so, when we sin or stumble, does that mean that when we repented it was false? is it more accurate to say repentance is a process? Dont we as Christians repent every day?

So what kind of repentance is Jesus talking about here? Repentance unto salvation is very fuzzy to me at times. Because all the Christians i kno will admit that they are not perfect. As James says: "we all stumble in many ways".

I will share my interpretation and you guys can affirm or correct me:

my interpretation is that repentance is when we accept Jesus as our Lord. It doesnt mean we never sin, but that Jesus is our King and He calls the shots in our lives instead of us. He says whats right and wrong not us. When we repent, we indentify ourselves in Christ instead of in other things. This leads to turning from sin, but it is not the turning from sin that saves us. We turn from a Christless, godless life, to a life with Christ as our HeadHere is another way to look at it. Repentance is becoming convicted that we are wrong about something (like a belief, action, or attitude towards someone), understanding the consequences of our conviction, changing our minds about it, and then acting according to our changed mind.

"Repent ye and believe..."

Without repentence, the belief might just be an acknowledgment of news or information. With repentence, the belief is the result of a changed mind or heart on a matter. The believer is changed from a previous state of need, unbelief, or wrong belief.

God Bless!

timmyb
Jan 11th 2009, 09:05 PM
I like the greek word for repentance is metanoia which means to change your mind... repentance is an attitude change which is to say yes to the truth of the Gospel...

th1bill
Jan 11th 2009, 09:42 PM
... You gents need to teach! I've seen this discussed so many times and so seldom is the full truth taught but these answers should be good for a months discussion, they're all good.

Oma
Jan 11th 2009, 10:14 PM
It's best to compare Scripture references to get the complete picture. Here are a few.

For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.1 Thess 1:9-10 (KJV)

Shows a turning away from sin to God.

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Acts 8:22 (KJV)

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.Prov 28:13 (KJV)

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2009, 11:25 PM
Repent ye and believe the gospel

ive got believing the gospel down, but what does it mean to repent? does it just mean stop doing bad things? If thats so, when we sin or stumble, does that mean that when we repented it was false? is it more accurate to say repentance is a process? Dont we as Christians repent every day?

Jesus taught that if your brother sins against you seven times in a day, and repents each time, to forgive him each time.

So here's my question, if repent means to "never do the sin again" then why does Jesus suggest that a man can sin seven times and repent each time?

Repentance imo, simply means a change of mind. It is changing our mind about sin and about God. Judas changed his mind about sin, but he went to the priest not to Christ. He repented of his sin but he did not repent towards God. IOW, he didn't believe the gospel.


So what kind of repentance is Jesus talking about here? Repentance unto salvation is very fuzzy to me at times. Because all the Christians i kno will admit that they are not perfect. As James says: "we all stumble in many ways".

In some way, when on gets saved, he is giving up his right to govern himself and turning himself over to God. He is willing to die to his self centered desires, embrace his cross, and have God resurrect him.

timmyb
Jan 11th 2009, 11:38 PM
repentance is laying down your right to condemn yourself and agree that Jesus blood is enough to make you righteous even at that very moment... repentance is agreeing with God and breaking agreement with yourself and your right to judge yourself by your own actions

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 12:07 AM
repentance is laying down your right to condemn yourself and agree that Jesus blood is enough to make you righteous even at that very moment... repentance is agreeing with God and breaking agreement with yourself and your right to judge yourself by your own actions

you make a good point. one of the most underrated sins is self-condemnation. To claim at any point in time that you are too sinful for Christs blood to cover! this is one that i still struggle with, even though there is clearly no condemnation for those in Christ

thethinker
Jan 12th 2009, 01:07 AM
You got it!!!

I don't agree with repentance as a way of life-we do it everyday-its a condition of the heart, stuff. Once born again we have Christ in us the hope of glory, the author and finisher of our faith, who is more than able to finish in us what He started.

Heb 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

Sirus,
You say that you don't agree with repentance as a way of life. Then you say we do it every day. This seems contradictory. Then you cite a passage from Scripture which shows that repentance has been abolished.

Please explain your statements.

Thanks,
thethinker

Sirus
Jan 12th 2009, 01:41 AM
No, I said I don't agree with repentance as
-a way of life
-we do it everyday
-a condition of the heart

It was worded badly. My apologies.

If by abolished you mean the believer that has already repented from dead works to have faith in God, yes.

thethinker
Jan 12th 2009, 08:49 AM
No, I said I don't agree with repentance as
-a way of life
-we do it everyday
-a condition of the heart

It was worded badly. My apologies.

If by abolished you mean the believer that has already repented from dead works to have faith in God, yes.

Hey Sirus,
Thanks for clearing up the seeming contradiction. I do believe that repentance was required for the Jew only up until Paul's justiifcation by faith alone principle was revealed. The apostles never preached repentance or baptism to a non-Israelite.


The book Hebrews warned those Jewish Christians to stop laying again the foundation of repentance, baptism, etc. So repentance was a requirement that was to be phased out. There was to come a time when the foundation was to stop being laid and to start building upon that foundation. Paul's justification by faith alone principle built upon that foundation thus replacing the Jewish Gospel (repentance and baptism).

Therefore, repentance and baptism was indeed abolished. Paul's justification by faith alone teaching is all that applies now to Jew and non-Jew alike.

thinker

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 10:53 AM
Jesus taught that if your brother sins against you seven times in a day, and repents each time, to forgive him each time.


Could repentance then be called asking for the forgiveness of sins from the heart?

Walstib
Jan 12th 2009, 01:32 PM
Could repentance then be called asking for the forgiveness of sins from the heart?

I think the repentance happens within the realization you are guilty before anything can be asked.

There is no specification on a length of time between repentance and asking for or receiving anything. Could be years, or never, after your mind has changed about the truth that you want anything to do with it.

This leaving room for the people who know the truth, but end up never being known.

Peace,
Joe

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 03:42 PM
Repent ye and believe the gospel

ive got believing the gospel down, but what does it mean to repent? does it just mean stop doing bad things? If thats so, when we sin or stumble, does that mean that when we repented it was false? is it more accurate to say repentance is a process? Dont we as Christians repent every day?

So what kind of repentance is Jesus talking about here? Repentance unto salvation is very fuzzy to me at times. Because all the Christians i kno will admit that they are not perfect. As James says: "we all stumble in many ways".

I will share my interpretation and you guys can affirm or correct me:

my interpretation is that repentance is when we accept Jesus as our Lord. It doesnt mean we never sin, but that Jesus is our King and He calls the shots in our lives instead of us. He says whats right and wrong not us. When we repent, we indentify ourselves in Christ instead of in other things. This leads to turning from sin, but it is not the turning from sin that saves us. We turn from a Christless, godless life, to a life with Christ as our HeadIt's turning from unbelief to belief, from believing we are righteous to acknowledging that we are sinners and from wanting control of our own lives to giving control of our lives to Christ and following Him.

Here is an example of someone repenting:

9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So, repentance involves humbling yourself, confessing that you are a sinner and being sorry for your sins and asking God for mercy.

Walstib
Jan 12th 2009, 04:03 PM
So, repentance involves humbling yourself, confessing that you are a sinner and being sorry for your sins and asking God for mercy.

Is this not making repentance into a whole bunch of things?

Humbling yourself is humbling yourself.

Confessing is confessing.

Asking for mercy is asking for mercy.

Being sorry is being sorry.

Even after all these thing God has to do the regenerating when He wants to. Repentance is just one part, not all the parts in one. Repentance unto salvation is different than repentance after salvation as well.

Peace,
Joe

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 04:10 PM
Is this not making repentance into a whole bunch of things?

Humbling yourself is humbling yourself.

Confessing is confessing.

Asking for mercy is asking for mercy.

Being sorry is being sorry.

Even after all these thing God has to do the regenerating when He wants to. Repentance is just one part, not all the parts in one. Repentance unto salvation is different than repentance after salvation as well.

Peace,
Joe

because i am reformed, it is easy to say that all regenerate believers repent, so i see what you are saying. I also believe repentance overflows from a new heart

Walstib
Jan 12th 2009, 04:28 PM
Hi Reformedct,

Maybe not so much agreement unfortunately. I do agree that all the regenerate must first repent. Though I believe repentance comes before a new heart.

I am not one who subscribes to the whole prevenient grace thingy (Edit: depending on exactly how it is defined I should say.) The reckoned dead spirit in an unregenerate, I believe, still has the capacity to hear God and accept or refuse the call of God without the need to be regenerated first.

Peace,
Joe

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 04:41 PM
Is this not making repentance into a whole bunch of things?I believe it includes all those things. What do you believe repentance unto salvation is if it doesn't include any of those things?

Walstib
Jan 12th 2009, 04:45 PM
Hi John146,

I believe what was eloquently defined in posts 2 through 6.

Peace,
Joe

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 04:59 PM
Hi John146,

I believe what was eloquently defined in posts 2 through 6.

Peace,
JoeAs do I. So, it appears the only real difference here is that I lump the act of humbling oneself, being sorry for your sins and acknowledging that they're a sinner, and calling on God for mercy together under repentance while you don't. I suppose it doesn't make much of a difference either way if we're in agreement that those things are required in order for someone to be saved.

thethinker
Jan 12th 2009, 05:42 PM
Hey guys,
Repentance was commanded of Israel only and not of all men. For them it meant the putting off of the things of the old covenant. It meant the discarding of Moses altogether who was the mediator of the old covenant. The call to Israel to repent was a command to embrace Christ alone, the mediator of the new covenant.

Please observe the progression of thought concerning gospel truth from Pentecost to Paul.

thinker

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 05:46 PM
Hey guys,
Repentance was commanded of Israel only and not of all men. For them it meant the putting off of the things of the old covenant. It meant the discarding of Moses altogether who was the mediator of the old covenant. The call to Israel to repent was a command to embrace Christ alone, the mediator of the new covenant.

Please observe the progression of thought concerning gospel truth from Pentecost to Paul.

thinkerI disagree, to say the least.

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

thethinker
Jan 12th 2009, 06:25 PM
I disagree, to say the least.

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Greetings John146,
It is clear that you disagree with me that Israel only was commanded to repent. But what about that part of my statement about Israel being commanded to put off Moses/Mediator and to accept that Christ replaced Moses as the Mediator of the covenant. Their sin was that they rejected that Christ was their new Mediator. Therefore, "repentance" for Israel meant that they had to embrace Christ. But they didn't. Paul said,

"For they, being [willfully] ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God" (Rom. 10:1-3).

How could non-Israelites have been commanded to "repent" seeing that they did not have the law. They knew nothing of Moses or the promised One who would supercede Moses. They knew nothing of the righteousness that God had revealed in Christ. Non-Israelites were being judged according to the reveltion of God in nature. They did not have a spoken word from God. Paul said explicitly that they did not have the law (Rom. 2).

Therefore, for non-Israelites the command to "repent" would have made them scratch their heads. Thus, in its historical context the expression "all men" must be Israel alone. This is substantiated by the fact that Jesus declared that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. And Paul also declared that Jesus was a minister only to the nations of the Jews (Rom. 15:8-9).

blessings,
thinker

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 09:57 PM
Greetings John146,
It is clear that you disagree with me that Israel only was commanded to repent. But what about that part of my statement about Israel being commanded to put off Moses/Mediator and to accept that Christ replaced Moses as the Mediator of the covenant. Their sin was that they rejected that Christ was their new Mediator. Therefore, "repentance" for Israel meant that they had to embrace Christ. But they didn't. Paul said,

"For they, being [willfully] ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God" (Rom. 10:1-3).

How could non-Israelites have been commanded to "repent" seeing that they did not have the law.Did non-Israelites not sin?


They knew nothing of Moses or the promised One who would supercede Moses. They knew nothing of the righteousness that God had revealed in Christ. Non-Israelites were being judged according to the reveltion of God in nature. They did not have a spoken word from God. Paul said explicitly that they did not have the law (Rom. 2).

Therefore, for non-Israelites the command to "repent" would have made them scratch their heads.Why would it have made them scratch their heads. They would need to repent of all the wicked things they did, which it talks about in Romans 1.


Thus, in its historical context the expression "all men" must be Israel alone.I totally disagree. The context is all men everywhere and not Israel alone. Look for yourself.

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Verse 31 shows that the entire world is in view here and not just Israel. It couldn't be more clear. It's clearly saying that all people everywhere in the world are commanded to repent because there is an appointed day when He will judge all the people of the world "by that man whom he hath ordained".

thethinker
Jan 12th 2009, 10:14 PM
John147 posted:
Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Verse 31 shows that the entire world is in view here and not just Israel. It couldn't be more clear. It's clearly saying that all people everywhere in the world are commanded to repent because there is an appointed day when He will judge all the people of the world "by that man whom he hath ordained".

First, Chapter 2 says that God poured out His Spirit upon all flesh. Peter was speaking to the "men of Israel" saying to THEM that God would pour out His Spirit upon THEIR sons and daughters.Yet we know that not all Israelites recieved the Spirit that day. And no Gentile received the Spirit. Therefore, the expressions "all flesh" or "all men" in the Acts refers to Israelites. And the term "everywhere" refers to Israelites scattered all over Palestine.

Second, the apostles never preached to a non-Israelite.

Third, Peter specifically said "Men of ISRAEL, hear these words....Repent and be baptized" (Acts 2:11-38).

Acts is quite clear that "repentance" was commanded of Israel alone!

Blessings

Sirus
Jan 13th 2009, 01:16 AM
Hey Sirus,
Thanks for clearing up the seeming contradiction. I do believe that repentance was required for the Jew only up until Paul's justiifcation by faith alone principle was revealed. The apostles never preached repentance or baptism to a non-Israelite.


The book Hebrews warned those Jewish Christians to stop laying again the foundation of repentance, baptism, etc. So repentance was a requirement that was to be phased out. There was to come a time when the foundation was to stop being laid and to start building upon that foundation. Paul's justification by faith alone principle built upon that foundation thus replacing the Jewish Gospel (repentance and baptism).

Therefore, repentance and baptism was indeed abolished. Paul's justification by faith alone teaching is all that applies now to Jew and non-Jew alike.

thinkerI'm open to you providing more evidence for this but off the top I'll say repentance is in several of Paul's letters, 2Peter, and Revelation.

Sirus
Jan 13th 2009, 01:28 AM
thethinker, I am curious on your thought on 'convert'. I don't think it too off topic because most consider convert and repent the same. I however see two words with two meanings and two applications, yet they are very similar. They both are a turn. The reason I ask is because I see the actual term convert from turn used for Israel. Turn from the law to Christ. Both the one true God, but "from faith to faith", law to Christ, as Paul addresses them at Rome. I'm not 100% on this just yet, but.....? I'm just wondering if you have combined the two to come to your conclusion on repent.

watchinginawe
Jan 13th 2009, 02:56 AM
Second, the apostles never preached to a non-Israelite. Do you mean before Jesus' death? I'm not sure what you are proposing here.

We know that Peter preached to Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. Now we know that Peter knew that Cornelius was a non-Israelite as he stated in verse 28 of the follow passage:

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Now, when Peter rehearsed the matter before the Apostles in Jerusaelm (Acts 11), the assembly concluded the following:

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Acts is quite clear that "repentance" was commanded of Israel alone!Consider Paul's farewell to the elders in Asia before going to Jerusalem:

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,

19 Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:

20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

We see that Paul preached repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ to both Jew and Gentile. The gentiles had many pagan gods to be repented of.

God Bless!

thethinker
Jan 13th 2009, 09:07 AM
I'm open to you providing more evidence for this but off the top I'll say repentance is in several of Paul's letters, 2Peter, and Revelation.
Hey Sirus,
Paul said that the gospel was to be preached to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. This means that all the Jews of that generation must have heard the gospel before it could be preached to the Gentiles.

If the captain of a sinking ship orders that women and children be saved first, then no man can be saved until then. Jesus came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He commanded His disciples to tarry until the coming of the Holy Spirit when they would be anointed to preach the gospel beginning with Jerusalem. Paul said "to the Jew first". If the apostles had preached to Gentiles before completing their ministry to Israel they would have been disobedient to their "captain's" orders. The gospel had to go to Jews FIRST.

Therefore, the command to repent was exclusive to Israel and meant that they were to discard Moses as their mediator of the covenant and embrace Christ as their new mediator. The apostles when preaching Christ were being accused by the Jews of teaching things that were "contrary" to Moses (Acts 6:11-14). The apostles taught contrary to Moses in the sense that they were displacing Moses. But the Jews rejected this failing to understand that Jesus was the fulfillment of Moses. This was their impentinence.

In the meantime the Gentiles were being judged according to the revelation of God in nature (Rom. 2). Many say that they were the "heathen" who never heard the gospel. No! Paul explicitly identified them as those who did NOT have the law,

"For not the hearers of the law shall be justified in the sight of God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: "For when the Gentiles who do not have the law do according to nature those things in the law"...(2:13-14).

The expression "do those things according to nature" refers back to the revelation of God in nature in chapter 1. Paul was saying this: If the Gentiles who do not have the law obey what God has revealed to them in nature they shall be justified.

Therefore, "repent and be baptized" was for Israel. Paul came later with his justification by faith alone gospel and after the gospel had reached all the Jews of that generation everyone was judged according to the same standard. That standard NOW is faith alone.

thinker

John146
Jan 13th 2009, 04:39 PM
John147 posted:

First, Chapter 2 says that God poured out His Spirit upon all flesh. Peter was speaking to the "men of Israel" saying to THEM that God would pour out His Spirit upon THEIR sons and daughters.Yet we know that not all Israelites recieved the Spirit that day. And no Gentile received the Spirit. Therefore, the expressions "all flesh" or "all men" in the Acts refers to Israelites. And the term "everywhere" refers to Israelites scattered all over Palestine.

Second, the apostles never preached to a non-Israelite.

Third, Peter specifically said "Men of ISRAEL, hear these words....Repent and be baptized" (Acts 2:11-38).

Acts is quite clear that "repentance" was commanded of Israel alone!

BlessingsYou didn't really respond directly to what I said. So, back to Acts 17:30-31 for a minute. Can you not see the connection made between "all men everywhere" in verse 30 and "the world" in verse 31?

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I believe he makes a clear connection here between "all men everywhere" and "the world". Clearly, the world is not a reference only to Israel. Also, when it says "he hath given assurance unto all men" in verse 31, you can't think that is only speaking about Israel. God has given assurance to all people, not just Israel, that He raised His Son from the dead.

We know that all people, and not just Israel, will be judged according to what they believed regarding "that man whom he hath ordained", Jesus Christ. So, God commands all people in all nations to repent because all people in all nations will stand before Him on judgment day to give an account of themselves. All people in all nations are required to repent of their sins and acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

John146
Jan 13th 2009, 04:42 PM
Hey Sirus,
Paul said that the gospel was to be preached to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. This means that all the Jews of that generation must have heard the gospel before it could be preached to the Gentiles.

If the captain of a sinking ship orders that women and children be saved first, then no man can be saved until then. Jesus came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He commanded His disciples to tarry until the coming of the Holy Spirit when they would be anointed to preach the gospel beginning with Jerusalem. Paul said "to the Jew first". If the apostles had preached to Gentiles before completing their ministry to Israel they would have been disobedient to their "captain's" orders. The gospel had to go to Jews FIRST.

Therefore, the command to repent was exclusive to Israel and meant that they were to discard Moses as their mediator of the covenant and embrace Christ as their new mediator. The apostles when preaching Christ were being accused by the Jews of teaching things that were "contrary" to Moses (Acts 6:11-14). The apostles taught contrary to Moses in the sense that they were displacing Moses. But the Jews rejected this failing to understand that Jesus was the fulfillment of Moses. This was their impentinence.

In the meantime the Gentiles were being judged according to the revelation of God in nature (Rom. 2). Many say that they were the "heathen" who never heard the gospel. No! Paul explicitly identified them as those who did NOT have the law,

"For not the hearers of the law shall be justified in the sight of God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: "For when the Gentiles who do not have the law do according to nature those things in the law"...(2:13-14).

The expression "do those things according to nature" refers back to the revelation of God in nature in chapter 1. Paul was saying this: If the Gentiles who do not have the law obey what God has revealed to them in nature they shall be justified.

Therefore, "repent and be baptized" was for Israel. Paul came later with his justification by faith alone gospel and after the gospel had reached all the Jews of that generation everyone was judged according to the same standard. That standard NOW is faith alone.

thinkerWho is the following passage addressed to?

2 Cor 7
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

thethinker
Jan 13th 2009, 10:31 PM
You didn't really respond directly to what I said. So, back to Acts 17:30-31 for a minute. Can you not see the connection made between "all men everywhere" in verse 30 and "the world" in verse 31?

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I believe he makes a clear connection here between "all men everywhere" and "the world". Clearly, the world is not a reference only to Israel.

Greetings brother John 146,
I seem to have missed your original question. Your connection between "all men everywhere" and the "world" is correct. But the "world" is Israel and not the Gentiles. In John 15 Jesus told His disciples that the "world" would hate them because it hated Christ.

"If the world hates you, know that it hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you....As it is written in THEIR law, 'they hated Me without a cause'" (John 15:18-25).

The "world" hated Christ according as it was written in THEIR law.

That explains it. The "world" therefore was Israel for the Gentiles had no written law. Paul said that the Gentiles did not have the law (Rom. 2). Therefore, the "world" that was judged by God was that generation of Israel that rejected Christ. It is not biblically correct or historically accurate to say that the "world" that hated Christ included Gentiles.


Also, when it says "he hath given assurance unto all men" in verse 31, you can't think that is only speaking about Israel. God has given assurance to all people, not just Israel, that He raised His Son from the dead

This also is historically inaccurate. Paul said that there were Gentiles who were being justified according to the revelation of God in nature (Rom. 2). There is no testimony in nature that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

Paul's faith alone message IS THE UNIVERSAL GOSPEL to all men indiscriminately. But the "repent and be baptized" message was the Gospel to Israel. At no time did the apostles command a Gentile to repent.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 11:29 PM
Matt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Matt 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.



Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Many preach that repentance, is repentance from sin. I believe that this sort of repentance happens as we grow in Christ.

The initial repentance required is a turning to Christ.

thethinker
Jan 14th 2009, 12:53 AM
Partaker of Christ said:
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Dear partaker in Christ,
It is unfortunate for us who live in modern times that the translators have rendered the word "ethnos" as "Gentiles". This mistranslation is out of the historical context of the Scriptures and has led to many erroneous beliefs.

The Greek "ethnos" should always be translated as "nations" unless there is strong contextual reason to render it "Gentiles". Please consult the Young's Analytical Concordance. It says that the Greek "ethnos" means "nations".

God promised Jacob that many "nations" would come out of his body (Gen. 35:11). The Septuagint uses "ethnos". So when you see the word "Gentiles" in your translation you must substitute the word "nations" in its place. And keep in mind that the "nations" Jesus came to save were those of the House of Israel.

"I was sent not except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24). And He commanded His disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (10:6).
Jesus clearly said that He was sent NOT to Gentiles but to Israel. He clearly commanded His disciples to do the same.

The Scripture you provided from Acts 11:18 refers to the "nations" of Israel, in particular those who were once unclean but who God had cleansed (verses 1-15).

By the time Paul wrote the book of Romans Christ was still a "servant" to Israel exclusively,


Now I say that Jesus Christ is a servant to the circumcision for the truth [or gospel] of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, and that the nations might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written....

Now our translations say that Christ is a servant to the circumcision in order that the Gentiles might glorify God "as it is written".... But Paul went on to cite four prophecies that make it VERY CLEAR that the "ethnos" or "nations" that might glorify God were the nations of Israel (Rom. 15:7-13). Read those prophecies for yourself and see that they all had to do with the nations of Israel.

Therefore, the statement in Acts 11:18 had to do with God granting "repentance" to the nations of Israel. Repentance in the book of Acts had to do with Israel putting off Moses as their mediator and embracing Christ as their new and final Mediator.

Paul came 20-30 years later and introduced the universal gospel which calls all men from every race to FAITH ALONE. Repentance was the call to Israel exclusively! Faith is the universal call NOW!

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 01:04 AM
John147 posted:

First, Chapter 2 says that God poured out His Spirit upon all flesh. Peter was speaking to the "men of Israel" saying to THEM that God would pour out His Spirit upon THEIR sons and daughters.Yet we know that not all Israelites recieved the Spirit that day. And no Gentile received the Spirit. Therefore, the expressions "all flesh" or "all men" in the Acts refers to Israelites. And the term "everywhere" refers to Israelites scattered all over Palestine.

Second, the apostles never preached to a non-Israelite.

Third, Peter specifically said "Men of ISRAEL, hear these words....Repent and be baptized" (Acts 2:11-38).

Acts is quite clear that "repentance" was commanded of Israel alone!

Blessings

hello thinker, dont mean to double team or anything but just further understand your position.

For those who are not in Israel, how do we get to heaven? Also, how do you view the last judgement for non-Jews. And also, what kind of faith is required of non-Jews. Faith that produces works, or faith with no works.

Also, do you believe that non-Jews must also obey the commandments of Jesus? For example abide in Him, forgive others, deny ourselves, carry our cross, etc.

I know its alot lol just tryna pick yur brain a bit:hmm:

thethinker
Jan 14th 2009, 03:12 AM
hello thinker, dont mean to double team or anything but just further understand your position.

For those who are not in Israel, how do we get to heaven? Also, how do you view the last judgement for non-Jews. And also, what kind of faith is required of non-Jews. Faith that produces works, or faith with no works.

Also, do you believe that non-Jews must also obey the commandments of Jesus? For example abide in Him, forgive others, deny ourselves, carry our cross, etc.

I know its alot lol just tryna pick yur brain a bit:hmm:

Hi reformedct,
There is no "Israel" today. The racial distinctions between Jew and Gentile remained until Christ judged the apostate nations of Israel and made their house "desolate". All God's promises concerning elect Israel were fulfilled and the rest were scattered among the Gentile nations and ceased to be a covenantal people just as Jesus foretold. So today there are no racial distinctions of any kind in God's covenantal economy.

God brought the remnant of Israel of that generation into salvation through the "repent and be baptized" gospel. Contemporaneous with this Paul was announcing his gospel of faith alone which excludes repentance and baptism and all external works of every kind.

Note that Paul spoke of this transition from one kind of faith into another kind of faith:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is being revealed out of faith INTO faith" (Rom. 1:16-17).

So God was leading His covenantal people out of law faith and into evangelical faith. Law faith had as its content the "repent and be baptized" message and was gradually phased out (Heb. 6:1-3) because it was for Israel alone. Evangelical faith has no works attached to it whatsoever and is the enduring, universal gospel for all men indiscriminately.

Therefore, the universal gospel NOW is the call to all men to indisriminately to believe in Christ. There is no "repent and be baptized" gospel now. That was for Israel. There is just simply the universal call to all men indiscriminately to believe.

Keep pickin my brain,
Your friend,
thinker

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:29 AM
Hi reformedct,
There is no "Israel" today. The racial distinctions between Jew and Gentile remained until Christ judged the apostate nations of Israel and made their house "desolate". All God's promises concerning elect Israel were fulfilled and the rest were scattered among the Gentile nations and ceased to be a covenantal people just as Jesus foretold. So today there are no racial distinctions of any kind in God's covenantal economy.

God brought the remnant of Israel of that generation into salvation through the "repent and be baptized" gospel. Contemporaneous with this Paul was announcing his gospel of faith alone which excludes repentance and baptism and all external works of every kind.

Note that Paul spoke of this transition from one kind of faith into another kind of faith:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is being revealed out of faith INTO faith" (Rom. 1:16-17).

So God was leading His covenantal people out of law faith and into evangelical faith. Law faith had as its content the "repent and be baptized" message and was gradually phased out (Heb. 6:1-3) because it was for Israel alone. Evangelical faith has no works attached to it whatsoever and is the enduring, universal gospel for all men indiscriminately.

Therefore, the universal gospel NOW is the call to all men to indisriminately to believe in Christ. There is no "repent and be baptized" gospel now. That was for Israel. There is just simply the universal call to all men indiscriminately to believe.

Keep pickin my brain,
Your friend,
thinker

thank you for answering thoroughly. Although i dont agree with some of what you are saying this is not about me right now as i said i am trying to see through your perspective. What happens to those who do not have faith? For example, an athiest? When Jesus returns what will happen to athiests who deny God? And how can a person "know" that they have faith?

JesusMySavior
Jan 14th 2009, 05:41 AM
some great responses here!

I believe repentance to be like this.

When we are sinning, the Holy Spirit (if we truly have Him) will convict us of wrongdoing. Now the ball is in our court. We have been notified of our action(s), now what are we going to do with it?

I've heard repentance simplified as, "just acknowledging before God that you've done wrong". That's not repentance, that's just acknowledgement. Repentance means to TURN from one's sins!

Now I will be honest, I struggle with pornography and self-gratification. I have since I was 11 years old. As I matured in Christ I realized it was a very bad thing to do. It is purely sin. I have fought long battles against it and have been tempted for days at a time. Gradually and surely I am cutting off every source of evil - first I threw away all of the naughty magazines and videos I had purchased before I took God seriously. I ripped them up and threw them away. Happy day! I have taken a step closer to God. Next came my problem with the internet. I tried a filter but found I could easily disengage it. Now I could either lie to myself and tell myself I put on a filter or I could be honest and say it wasn't helping in the least. So I had to buckle down and purchase a good, genuine filter, which can only be infiltrated with ONE password which two of my friends (also Christians and accountability partners) have. Horray! Another step towards God. But wait - not everything is blocked. Well, what to do, what to do... looks like I'm going to obey God's leading and make a list of safe sites which my friends and I approve of as non-tempting, and surf inside my own little box of safe sites. Congratulations, sacrifice is another step of repentance and one towards God. But oops - what's this...the enemy whispers in my ear that I have free showtime with my cable package - easy temptations for late at night. Guess I'm going to get rid of the digital cable and go without yet another novelty.

So though my flesh may not be co-operating (it never will), I can kill the desires more and more as I repent and take one step closer to God as He convicts me.

Struggle does not mean you are not following God - but it's what you do with that struggle and if you are willing to take the steps needed to be closer to God.

Repentance requires action which is a conscious effort and may hurt sometimes (it's supposed to). It's called radical amputation for those who are addicted to things and it's what causes saved drug addicts to dump their stash down the toilet and get clean. Let us truly repent and let God have us! :)

parker
Jan 14th 2009, 10:15 AM
Repentence has been corrupted and softened down to "saying you're sorry" for your sin.

The Biblical word is "metanoia." It means to completely change one's fundamental orientation.

Walstib
Jan 14th 2009, 03:13 PM
Paul came 20-30 years later and introduced the universal gospel which calls all men from every race to FAITH ALONE. Repentance was the call to Israel exclusively! Faith is the universal call NOW!

Hi Thinker,

What word would you use to describe the change of mind from unbelief to belief in any time frame?

If I use the word repent to describe this action within the mind, can we find agreement there that all are called to do this?

Peace,
Joe

JesusMySavior
Jan 14th 2009, 04:59 PM
For anyone to say that repentance isn't necessary to be saved is a complete deception from the pit of hell.

Matthew 3:8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance"

Matthew 9:13 "I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Matthew 11:20 "Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent"

Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”"

Mark 6:12 "So they went out and preached that people should repent"

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish"

Luke 24:47 "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord"

Acts 8:22 "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you."

Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow produces repentance, leading to salvation, not to be regretted;"

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Revelation 2:16 "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth."

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."

Revelation 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."



on and on. No one can tell me that repentance isn't necessary for being righteous in God's sight under the blood of Jesus Christ. Faith alone won't save you because then the demons would be saved (James 2:19-20). Repentance is a work that comes from faith and if there is no repentance, there is no genuine faith.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 05:08 PM
No one can tell me that repentance isn't necessary for being righteous in God's sight under the blood of Jesus Christ.

Right.


Faith alone won't save you because then the demons would be saved (James 2:19-20).

Correct.


Repentance is a work that comes from faith

Repentance is a gift that comes from God and is granted to those He has chosen to save.


if there is no repentance, there is no genuine faith.

Correct

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 06:22 PM
Paul's faith alone message IS THE UNIVERSAL GOSPEL to all men indiscriminately. But the "repent and be baptized" message was the Gospel to Israel. At no time did the apostles command a Gentile to repent.You are way off base if you are trying to suggest that repentance is not required for salvation. Tell me how you interpret the following passage:

8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 06:25 PM
For anyone to say that repentance isn't necessary to be saved is a complete deception from the pit of hell.

Matthew 3:8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance"

Matthew 9:13 "I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Matthew 11:20 "Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent"

Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Mark 6:12 "So they went out and preached that people should repent"

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish"

Luke 24:47 "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord"

Acts 8:22 "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you."

Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow produces repentance, leading to salvation, not to be regretted;"

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Revelation 2:16 "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth."

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."

Revelation 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."



on and on. No one can tell me that repentance isn't necessary for being righteous in God's sight under the blood of Jesus Christ. Faith alone won't save you because then the demons would be saved (James 2:19-20). Repentance is a work that comes from faith and if there is no repentance, there is no genuine faith.Absolutely. This is a major point of deception in the world today. The need for repentance is not being preached.

Oregongrown
Jan 14th 2009, 06:30 PM
To me is "go and sin no more". Now I know I will sin again, don't plan to but I don't think humans "can't not" sin or Jesus would not have had to sacrifice everything on the cross for our salvation. We couldn't and can't get it on our own. So when I sin, and am convicted of that sin, I ask His forgiveness. He does forgive, and has already. The "asking" is more for me than God, as it teaches me more humility and also reverence to God. To repent in my opinion, is to not sin again, yes, but particularly, not that sin. Say I lied, or hurt someone with mean talk. Yes, Im forgiven but to repent is to "not do that anymore". That shows that I truly want to walk in all His Ways, not just get out of trouble and go do it again.

Just some thoughts:) God bless, a sister in Christ, denise


Repent ye and believe the gospel

ive got believing the gospel down, but what does it mean to repent? does it just mean stop doing bad things? If thats so, when we sin or stumble, does that mean that when we repented it was false? is it more accurate to say repentance is a process? Dont we as Christians repent every day?

So what kind of repentance is Jesus talking about here? Repentance unto salvation is very fuzzy to me at times. Because all the Christians i kno will admit that they are not perfect. As James says: "we all stumble in many ways".

I will share my interpretation and you guys can affirm or correct me:

my interpretation is that repentance is when we accept Jesus as our Lord. It doesnt mean we never sin, but that Jesus is our King and He calls the shots in our lives instead of us. He says whats right and wrong not us. When we repent, we indentify ourselves in Christ instead of in other things. This leads to turning from sin, but it is not the turning from sin that saves us. We turn from a Christless, godless life, to a life with Christ as our Head

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 06:33 PM
Repentance is a gift that comes from God and is granted to those He has chosen to save.No, repentance is a willful act of obedience in response to God's command that He gives to all people everywhere.

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

If repentance was a gift then why would God command people to do it who He supposedly had no intention of giving the ability to do it?

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 06:46 PM
No, repentance is a willful act of obedience in response to God's command that He gives to all people everywhere.

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

If repentance was a gift then why would God command people to do it who He supposedly had no intention of giving the ability to do it?

Don't ask me. Ask God. Why would repentance, being something granted by God, be a command to all men?

Why would obeying the law, which all have transgressed against and fell short, be commanded by God?

Let's ask God.

The law (commands of God) was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more.

when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

timmyb
Jan 14th 2009, 06:48 PM
Oh the joys of repentance...

Psalm 141:1 says let the 'righteous' strike me, it shall be a kindness.. excellent oil... LET ME NOT REFUSE IT...

David not only allowed God to correct him, but he was giving man the ability to correct him as well... when someone rebukes me I want to have this attitude... I want to know the joys of repentance... I want the discipline of the Lord to be the joy of my heart... let my delight be in the fear of the Lord as was spoken of Jesus in Isaiah 11...

In Psalm 119 the author speaks of the delights in the law of the Lord in the testimonies of the Lord, that he would walk in righteousness... Repentance is too often seen as a burden to be avoided, when will it be the delight of our hearts to know that God loves us so much that he would give us that opportunity and discipline us... DISCIPLINE is so similar to the word DISCIPLE... coincidence? I think not... When will repentance become the delight of our hearts that we would do it even if we were right... repentance is only agreeing with God... it's a way to check your heart

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 07:00 PM
Don't ask me. Ask God. Why would repentance, being something granted by God, be a command to all men?I believe your understanding of what it means when it speaks of God granting repentance is flawed. I believe all those verses are saying is that God also decided to grant the chance for eternal life through repentance to the Gentile and not only the Jews. Many Jews beleived only they could be saved but Paul clarified that God granted the Gentiles the opportunity for salvation as well.

You have decided that granting repentance unto eternal life means the same thing as God giving repentance to someoneor making someone repent, but I don't agree. I believe it only has to do with granting the opportunity for eternal life and salvation, which comes through repentance (and faith, of course).


Why would obeying the law, which all have transgressed against and fell short, be commanded by God?

Let's ask God.

The law (commands of God) was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more.

when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.We're talking about repentance here. You can't get around the fact that God commands all people everywhere to repent. Why? Rather than showing why He commands people to obey the law, let's stay on topic and show why He commands people to repent. It's shown in the next verse.

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Why does God command everyone to repent? Paul gives us the answer, which is: "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained". God commands all people to repent because all people will one day be judged based on their belief (or lack of belief) in "that man whom he hath ordained", which, of course, is Jesus Christ.

People must repent and believe in Christ in order to be saved. That's why God commands all people to repent. He wouldn't command all people to repent if not all people had the ability to repent.

Walstib
Jan 14th 2009, 07:04 PM
I think everyone has valid points within their own definitions of repentance unto salvation and repentance after salvation.

Lets try and stay focused on the topic and find agreement in Christ, reasoning together for His Glory. No need to turn this into a defining of sovereignty, law or works debate, we have lots of those already.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 07:10 PM
You have decided that granting repentance unto eternal life means the same thing as God giving repentance to someoneor making someone repent, but I don't agree. I believe it only has to do with granting the opportunity for eternal life and salvation, which comes through repentance (and faith, of course).

You are entitled to that belief.
Just because Paul told Timothy that "God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth," doesn't mean Paul meant it. :hmm:

People must repent and believe in Christ in order to be saved. That's why God commands all people to repent. He wouldn't command all people to repent if not all people had the ability to repent.

Right...just like God wouldn't give Adam a commandment He knew Adam would break, or give everyone a law that He knew no one could follow. :rolleyes:

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 07:26 PM
You are entitled to that belief.
Just because Paul told Timothy that "God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth," doesn't mean Paul meant it. :hmm:

Right...just like God wouldn't give Adam a commandment He knew Adam would break, or give everyone a law that He knew no one could follow. :rolleyes:You have no response to what I said about the reason that God gave the command for all to repent? What do you suppose is the reason that people will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity? Isn't it for not repenting and not believing in Christ?

Luke 13
2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Are they going to be punished for not doing something that they supposedly had no ability to do? Or are they going to be punished for willfully choosing to refuse to repent and to reject Christ? The latter reason puts the blame on man where it belongs.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 07:49 PM
You have no response to what I said about the reason that God gave the command for all to repent? What do you suppose is the reason that people will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity? Isn't it for not repenting and not believing in Christ?

Luke 13
2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Are they going to be punished for not doing something that they supposedly had no ability to do? Or are they going to be punished for willfully choosing to refuse to repent and to reject Christ? The latter reason puts the blame on man where it belongs.

I have answered every question. Unfortunately, my posts, much like Scripture, are ignored by you when you disagree with it.

God commands all to repent. Biblical.
God grants repentance. Biblical.
Not all repent, therefore not all are granted repentance. Biblical.
God chose who will obey and disobey. Biblical.
Man is still held responsible, though it is not his choice. Biblical.

You either choose to believe what you want or what the Bible says. Some are "willfully ignorant." Biblical.

thethinker
Jan 14th 2009, 08:48 PM
Hi Thinker,
What word would you use to describe the change of mind from unbelief to belief in any time frame?
If I use the word repent to describe this action within the mind, can we find agreement there that all are called to do this?

Peace,
Joe

Greetings Joe,
I think that "repentance" Biblically speaking is not a mere "change of mind" as many have taught. Repentance for Israel was necessarily tied to their external, Mosaic regulations. That's why the apostles commanded the Jews to "repent and be baptized". Note the connection that repentance has with external regulations.

Both repentance and baptism effected the remission of sins. The apostles commanded the Jews to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins". This gospel was obviously tied to works and would eventually be replaced by Paul's gospel. There is no way that repentance and baptism can said to effect the remission of sins today. In fact, the Jewish Christians were admonished to discard repentance and baptisms (Heb. 6:1-3).

While Paul was imprisoned received new revelations which were the complete gospel. He said,

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is being revealed...even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21). Paul said this gospel was "kept secret" from the foundation of the age and that it was being revealed to him and that it was therefore his OWN gospel.

"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to MY gospel...according to the revelation of the mystery KEPT SECRET since the age began, but NOW is being manifested, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations" (Rom. 16:25-27).

So there it is! Before Paul the gospel message to Israel exclusively to was to "repent and be baptized". Then God revealed the faith alone gospel to Paul and made it known to all nations.

Therefore, repentance pertained to Israel and was replaced by faith alone which now pertains to all races of men. Can anyone show me an example from the Acts when the apostles preached "repent and be baptized" to non-Israelites?

Godspeed,
thinker

P.S. I can't find the post inwhich someone asked me about the verse in 2 Corinthians 7:9 where Paul said that godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. Those saints did not repent for the remission of their sins. They were already justified. Paul was calling them to repent of their sins in the same manner they did when they repented unto salvation at the beginning.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 09:15 PM
I have answered every question. Unfortunately, my posts, much like Scripture, are ignored by you when you disagree with it.I don't ignore any scripture. Your immaturity comes across with almost every post you make. Are you unable to discuss without getting personal?


God commands all to repent. Biblical.Agree


God grants repentance. Biblical.Agree, but disagree with your interpretation of what that means.


Not all repent, therefore not all are granted repentance. Biblical.Disagree. All are granted the opportunity to repent. If that wasn't true, then it wouldn't make sense for God to expect and desire all people to repent.


God chose who will obey and disobey. Biblical.Not biblical. Where does it say that?


Man is still held responsible, though it is not his choice. Biblical.Not biblical and completely nonsensical. The very idea of responsibility implies choice. How can one be held responsible and be condemned for not doing something (believing in Christ - John 3:18) when they supposedly didn't even have the ability to do it? You should be able to answer that question if your view is truly biblical.


You either choose to believe what you want or what the Bible says. Some are "willfully ignorant." Biblical.Don't equate your opinions with what the Bible says. I'm disagreeing with your opinions and not disagreeing with the Bible. The Bible is always true while our opinions are not always true.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 09:17 PM
P.S. I can't find the post inwhich someone asked me about the verse in 2 Corinthians 7:9 where Paul said that godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation.That was me.


Those saints did not repent for the remission of their sins. They were already justified. Paul was calling them to repent of their sins in the same manner they did when they repented unto salvation at the beginning.Ah, so you are now at least acknowledging that they needed to repent in order to be saved in the first place. That's progress. ;)

The Parson
Jan 14th 2009, 09:28 PM
I don't get it guys. Your mod in here asked you all to tone it down and return to OP. Instead this thread is turning into a spitting match. With that said, if you can't behave, THREAD Closed. Don't start a simular thread to this one until you find a way to discuss it peacefully. If you have a problem with this decision, start a thread in Chat to the Moderators made to my attention.