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reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 01:50 AM
I see alot of threads opening about faith/works. I would like to open this case up for a minute.

How many good works did the thief on the cross have, besides faith? 0

Did the thief feed the hungry, visit the poor? No.

Did the thief go to heaven? Yes.

Are good works REQUIRED to go to heaven, in the sense in that unless you have a list of things you have done you cannot be saved?

if they are required, how the heck is the thief in Paradise? Is there a double standard for salvation?

lets discuss!

The Parson
Jan 12th 2009, 02:03 AM
Not sure how else to answer this one but by scripture...

Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 02:04 AM
I see alot of threads opening about faith/works. I would like to open this case up for a minute.

How many good works did the thief on the cross have, besides faith? 0

Did the thief feed the hungry, visit the poor? No.

Did the thief go to heaven? Yes.

Are good works REQUIRED to go to heaven, in the sense in that unless you have a list of things you have done you cannot be saved?

if they are required, how the heck is the thief in Paradise? Is there a double standard for salvation?

lets discuss!

First of all how come you said "besides faith"? Is that work allowed?

Second, the thief was saved under the old covenant, not the new.

Third, God only requires of us, what we can do. The thief had no opportunity to do any works, we, however, do.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:12 AM
First of all how come you said "besides faith"? Is that work allowed?

Second, the thief was saved under the old covenant, not the new.

Third, God only requires of us, what we can do. The thief had no opportunity to do any works, we, however, do.

God only requires what we can do? where is that verse?

Faith is not a work. It is a gift from God. The thief had no works of righteousness. Yet he went to heaven. Therefore, works are not required for Paradise

Even if faith was a work, we see that faith is the only necessary work for salvation, otherwise the thief would not be saved. Also, all OT saints were saved by faith. Old or New Covenant, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, and the blood of bulls and goats only served as a reminder of sin.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:14 AM
Not sure how else to answer this one but by scripture...

Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

this is a good passage. However the people in this passage labored. Some longer than others, but they all did something. The thief did nothing but believe. Are there two different ways to be saved?

The Parson
Jan 12th 2009, 02:20 AM
Still brings it close enough for horse shoes my friend. There are a few I've had the honor of leading to the Lord who didn't live long thereafter. Lets suppose there is one led to the Lord on their death bed as a hypothetical example. Does their belief in the Lords Saving Grace at the time of death nullify their salvation?

I don't think so... Plainly said: Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:25 AM
Still brings it close enough for horse shoes my friend. There are a few I've had the honor of leading to the Lord who didn't live long thereafter. Lets suppose there is one led to the Lord on their death bed as a hypothetical example. Does their belief in the Lords Saving Grace at the time of death nullify their salvation?

I don't think so... Plainly said: Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, you all are agreeing that the path of salvation is different for every single human being?

So in order to be saved, we must call on the name of the Lord AND obey a customized list of things depending on how long we will live??

Is it safe to have a theology that is "close"? Especially when it comes to heaven/hell?

Yes, the parable is "close". Close but no cigar. The people in the parable worked. All of them did something. The thief did nothing. Close yes, but not the same.

If what you guys are saying is true, we are not saved by grace thru faith. We are saved by grace thru faith AND by the way Gods got a list of things for you to do while your alive and if you dont check off all the things on the list you will be in trouble. And so what if the thief had no works just ignore that part of the Bible and focus on all the other verses but not those ones lol

The Parson
Jan 12th 2009, 02:35 AM
So, you all are agreeing that the path of salvation is different for every single human being?

So in order to be saved, we must call on the name of the Lord AND obey a customized list of things depending on how long we will live??

Is it safe to have a theology that is "close"? Especially when it comes to heaven/hell?

Yes, the parable is "close". Close but no cigar. The people in the parable worked. All of them did something. The thief did nothing. Close yes, but not the same.

If what you guys are saying is true, we are not saved by grace thru faith. We are saved by grace thru faith AND by the way Gods got a list of things for you to do while your alive and if you dont check off all the things on the list you will be in trouble. And so what if the thief had no works just ignore that part of the Bible and focus on all the other verses but not those ones lolNot kewl to put words in other peoples mouths my friend and I'm asking nicely that you don't repeat that. How in the Sam Hill do you get I said that hypothetical person or any other soul didn't have to have faith? By grace we are saved through faith and also faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the Word of God sorta thing.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:42 AM
Not kewl to put words in other peoples mouths my friend and I'm asking nicely that you don't repeat that. How in the Sam Hill do you get I said that hypothetical person or any other soul didn't have to have faith? By grace we are saved through faith and also faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the Word of God sorta thing.

i apologize for the sarcasm. I did not mean to say that you were saying that someone didnt need faith to be saved i apoplogize.

I am saying that we are saved by grace thru faith. Period. Is faith without works dead? yes. Does that mean those works save us? no, because the thief was saved with no works.


If we MUST do works or else our salvation is not complete, the thief would be in hell right?

As i said i see the parable you used, but unfortunately there was no one in the parable that did no work to compare to the thief.

Romber
Jan 12th 2009, 02:42 AM
You keep saying the thief did no works-but how do you know? Sure he was a thief, but does that mean it completely rules out possibility of him doing some works before?

The Parson
Jan 12th 2009, 02:45 AM
My friend, the very act of acceptance is a work in itself.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 02:45 AM
Reformed---God only requires what we can do? where is that verse?


Micah 6:8 ( KJV ) 8He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


Reformed---Faith is not a work. It is a gift from God. The thief had no works of righteousness. Yet he went to heaven. Therefore, works are not required for Paradise


John 6:28-29 ( KJV ) 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Reformed---Even if faith was a work, we see that faith is the only necessary work for salvation, otherwise the thief would not be saved. Also, all OT saints were saved by faith. Old or New Covenant, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, and the blood of bulls and goats only served as a reminder of sin.

But you said not of works.

The Bible also says these are necessary,


Romans 10:9 ( KJV ) 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


Acts 2:38 ( KJV ) 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Mark 13:13 ( KJV ) 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 02:49 AM
i apologize for the sarcasm. I did not mean to say that you were saying that someone didnt need faith to be saved i apoplogize.

I am saying that we are saved by grace thru faith. Period. Is faith without works dead? yes. Does that mean those works save us? no, because the thief was saved with no works.


If we MUST do works or else our salvation is not complete, the thief would be in hell right?

As i said i see the parable you used, but unfortunately there was no one in the parable that did no work to compare to the thief.

What did the thief do?

1. He confessed Jesus as Lord.
2. He called on the name of the Lord.
3. He repented of his sin.
4. He believed.

That about covers the bases doesn't it

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:51 AM
You keep saying the thief did no works-but how do you know? Sure he was a thief, but does that mean it completely rules out possibility of him doing some works before?

do you mean before he believed?

so are you saying that his works before he believed are somehow counted as righteousness? (all our righteousness is as filthy rags) Anything apart from faith is sin. Im sure the thief probably did something good, but whatever it was, apart from faith it was sin, and obviously he wouldnt be on the cross if he was a righteous man. the bible clearly calls them criminals. Maybe he did do some good works before but the Bible doesnt say. So if we assume he did, we assume something that is not written anywhehere



If you are refferring to after he believed (while he was on the cross),

first off, the bible doesnt say he did anything good. So to assume that he did good is to assume something that is not written, but simply what we think.

secondly, even if he did do something good on the cross, what could he have done? He certainly did not feed the poor, or visit anyone in jail.

What i am trying to point out is that its not the works that save us, but our faith. Our faith will produce works in us but those works are not what saves us

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 02:51 AM
What did the thief do?

1. He confessed Jesus as Lord.
2. He called on the name of the Lord.
3. He repented of his sin.
4. He believed.

That about covers the bases doesn't it

yes. and i am saying that is all that is necessary to be saved. You got it!:pp

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 03:28 AM
yes. and i am saying that is all that is necessary to be saved. You got it!:pp

I thought you said no works.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 04:30 AM
I thought you said no works.

i dont believe repetntance and faith are works in the sense of earning or working for salvation. . I believe repentance is granted and that faith is from God. I dont consider repentance and faith works. they are given by God. We dont "work" faith, God gives it. We dont "work" repentance, God grants it. It is the works of God to believe, but not works in the sense of trying to earn right standing

However, for the sake of the argument, even if repentance and faith are works, they are the only works necessary to be with Jesus.

Amos_with_goats
Jan 12th 2009, 04:39 AM
Faith is Faith, it is not a work we do. It is a choice we make to accept it but not a work we do. We even choose to accept Faith....





Ephesians 2 (King James Version)

Ephesians 2:8-9


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 04:54 AM
i dont believe repetntance and faith are works in the sense of earning or working for salvation. . I believe repentance is granted and that faith is from God. I dont consider repentance and faith works. they are given by God. We dont "work" faith, God gives it. We dont "work" repentance, God grants it. It is the works of God to believe, but not works in the sense of trying to earn right standing

However, for the sake of the argument, even if repentance and faith are works, they are the only works necessary to be with Jesus.

So we just define works to fit our theology?

CoffeeCat
Jan 12th 2009, 05:10 AM
The thief on the cross accepted Christ on what was literally the closest thing to his deathbed. The only "work" he could possibly HAVE done, he did -- he turned to look at Christ next to him, and spoke to Him. It's something we've never been able to do.... physically turn our body and, in agony, have a conversation with Christ.... but it's all he was able to do. In the end, Christ said "truly I tell you, this day you will be with me in paradise."

Christ made a promise, and that means that He followed through on it. That suggests that all we need to truly be Christ's own is.... get ready for it.... Him.

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 05:19 AM
So we just define works to fit our theology?

Here is the definition of a good work that I hold to (and believe that reformedct does also):

Heidelberg Catechism Question and Answer 91
Q. But what are good works?
A. Only those which are done out of true faith,[1] in accordance with the law of God,[2] and to His glory,[3] and not those based on our own opinion or on precepts of men.[4]
[1] Joh. 15:5; Rom. 14:23; Heb. 11:6. [2] Lev. 18:4; I Sam. 15:22; Eph. 2:10. [3] I Cor. 10:31. [4] Deut. 12:32; Is. 29:13; Ezek. 20:18, 19; Matt. 15:7-9.

Amos_with_goats
Jan 12th 2009, 05:35 AM
Heidelberg Catechism Question and Answer 91

While definitions are helpful in discussion, I would encourage you to seek your answers in scripture rather then the writing of men.


Ephesians 2:8-9


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 07:20 AM
Here is the definition of a good work that I hold to (and believe that reformedct does also):

Heidelberg Catechism Question and Answer 91
Q. But what are good works?
A. Only those which are done out of true faith,[1] in accordance with the law of God,[2] and to His glory,[3] and not those based on our own opinion or on precepts of men.[4]
[1] Joh. 15:5; Rom. 14:23; Heb. 11:6. [2] Lev. 18:4; I Sam. 15:22; Eph. 2:10. [3] I Cor. 10:31. [4] Deut. 12:32; Is. 29:13; Ezek. 20:18, 19; Matt. 15:7-9.

The problem is, the definition changes, first it is faith alone, then it is faith and repentance, then faith and confession, then faith and calling on the Lord.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 04:13 PM
The problem is, the definition changes, first it is faith alone, then it is faith a repentance, then faith and confession, then faith and calling on the Lord.


we are saved by grace thru faith

confession, repentance and calling on the Lord are sprung from faith. Reformed theologians will simplify it by the doctrine of regeneration. God changes the heart. The new heart has faith, repents, calls on the Lord, etc. It is the faith that saves, but the same heart that produces faith also produces all those other things as well, including loving the people of God, caring for widows, etc.

John146
Jan 12th 2009, 04:34 PM
First of all how come you said "besides faith"? Is that work allowed?

Second, the thief was saved under the old covenant, not the new. No one was saved under the old covenant. By saying that you are saying that one could be saved by obeying the law, but that is simply not the case. Look what Paul says about Abraham:

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

When you look at the context from the preceding chapter you would see that the works spoken of here are works of the law. Abraham was not justified or saved by doing works of the law but rather was justified by his faith. He was saved under the new covenant just as you and I are. No one is saved apart from the new covenant of Christ's shed blood.

tt1106
Jan 12th 2009, 04:46 PM
God judges our Hearts. After we have been saved, sanctification is the process by which we are transformed.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 05:07 PM
What did the thief do?

1. He confessed Jesus as Lord.
2. He called on the name of the Lord.
3. He repented of his sin.
4. He believed.

That about covers the bases doesn't it


What did the thief do?


"We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

"Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom"

Repentance?
Confessing Jesus as Lord?


Read into it what you want.

EarlyCall
Jan 12th 2009, 06:18 PM
reformedct,

Maybe you're missing the bigger picture here. A person gets married. If after being married one day they are killed in an accident, what love did they show to their spouse? Very little after being married for but one day. But they were married.

Now let's say a person gets married and they die after being married for forty years. Every day they did for their spouse kind acts out of love and expressed their love for their spouse in many ways.

I think the above lines up well with the thief on the cross and those that live a Christian life for years.

But the bigger picture here is this: What follows naturally if we live our lives for another out of love for that other? Don't we want to please them? Sure, and that in the case of living for Christ will be good works.

What do we see from Paul and Peter and the others? We see good works. How was it those good works came about? Through love for Christ.

Perhaps then the real question is not on the salvation by faith and the question of good works, but rather on our relationship with Christ. In other words, maybe the question wouldn't come up at all if we are truly in a right relationship with Christ.

We can notice easily enough that in Paul and Peter's lives and the others that finding opportunities for good works was not a challenge as we are told that they have been prepared for us in advance. But we need to be in a right relationship with Christ where He can work out His will in our lives.

If we are and we do and He does, then the question you pose really does become moot.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 06:28 PM
reformedct,

Maybe you're missing the bigger picture here. A person gets married. If after being married one day they are killed in an accident, what love did they show to their spouse? Very little after being married for but one day. But they were married.

Now let's say a person gets married and they die after being married for forty years. Every day they did for their spouse kind acts out of love and expressed their love for their spouse in many ways.

I think the above lines up well with the thief on the cross and those that live a Christian life for years.

But the bigger picture here is this: What follows naturally if we live our lives for another out of love for that other? Don't we want to please them? Sure, and that in the case of living for Christ will be good works.

What do we see from Paul and Peter and the others? We see good works. How was it those good works came about? Through love for Christ.

Perhaps then the real question is not on the salvation by faith and the question of good works, but rather on our relationship with Christ. In other words, maybe the question wouldn't come up at all if we are truly in a right relationship with Christ.

We can notice easily enough that in Paul and Peter's lives and the others that finding opportunities for good works was not a challenge as we are told that they have been prepared for us in advance. But we need to be in a right relationship with Christ where He can work out His will in our lives.

If we are and we do and He does, then the question you pose really does become moot.
i agree with very much of what you are saying. Whenever i bring up the thief in the cross sometimes people think i am saying that it is OK for us not to have works. That is not what i am saying at all, faith without works is dead. My point i was trying to make was that we "do what we are", we dont "do to become". Works come from being a good tree. Was the good tree a good tree before it started developing fruit? Yup. Was the sheep a sheep before they did their works? yes! I was trying to point out that we are judged by our works because they attest to who we are. Its not the works that save but WHO WE ARE that saves us. Thats why the thief went to be with Jesus, because he was righteous by faith. If he had somehow lived, he would definetly have works.

My only point was to show that we are saved by BEING a sheep, a good tree, etc. Works flow from who we are. They give evidence of who we are. Thats why we will be judged by our works, because they will reveal if we are indeed a sheep or goat.

divaD
Jan 12th 2009, 06:40 PM
Perhaps most don't even realize who the thief on the cross represented? He was certainly a literal person, but it has a much deeper meaning than that. At least I believe it does. But before we go there, why is he defined as a thief anyway? Luke defines him as an evil doer according to the Greek, so that's how I will define him.

I can't explain it, but sometimes when I'm reading Scriptures, things seem to literally jump off the pages at me. Things that I wasn't even considering. To get to my point, we need to go to Romans ch 6. This is what jumped off the page at me, probably a yr or so ago.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


Still don't see it? That old man in verse 6, this is that same evil doer
that was crucified with Christ, or IOW, he represents our old man that was put to death. Well, not literally here in Romans 6 but literally there at Calvary, but look carefully at these verses...Romans 6:6-8.

(Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him) Was not the evil doer(Luke 23:40-43) crucified with Him?

(that the body of sin might be destroyed) Wasn't the evil doer's(Luke 23:40-43) body destroyed when he died, (that henceforth we should not serve sin) in order that he should not serve sin any longer?

(For he that is dead is freed from sin) When the evil doer(Luke 23:40-43) died, he was freed from sin, correct? How? Because Christ told him he would be with Him in paradise. When would that be? When he died.

(Now if we be dead with Christ)Wasn't the evil doer(Luke 23:40-43) literally dead with Christ, (we believe that we shall also live with him) and didn't the evil doer(Luke 23:40-43) believe Christ, when Christ promised him He would be in paradise with Him?

Now check this out.

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Doesn't this then mean, looking at this from the perspective of the deeper meaning in Romans 6:6-8 that Jesus died in the old man's(evil doer's) place and saved him as well?


And another point I'd like to make.

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.


What do we see here? We see 2 condemned sinners ready to die. One appears to fear God, the other one doesn't. What sets them apart? One becomes a believer, the other one doesn't. The believer gets saved, the other one doesn't. The one that gets saved wasn't saved by his own works, but was saved by his trust in Christ. The other one simply could not save himself nor could Christ save him. Why? Because of disbelief.


And another point.

Luke 23:32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.
33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

Notice verse 33 "one on the right hand, and the other on the left"

I'm pretty confident that the evil doer who was with Jesus in paradise when he died was the one on the right. How do I come to that conclusion? Simple...do a study specifically on the differences between being on the right as opposed to being on the left. The sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 illustrate this concept.



My whole point here is perspective and how deep some are willing/able to see. No one may choose to believe or even consider what I have posted here, and that's your right, but if one really looks closely at what I wrote, I believe that they can see that there are indeed layers of spiritual truth hidden within Romans 5:6-8, well actually in all of the Bible. It would probaby literally take forever to discover even a fraction of it.

Just so that no one is confused, the idea is to not miss the obvious topical msg that is being taught in this passage in Romans 6, but that there also are deeper spiritual meanings to the verses as well. We can't confuse the two is all.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 06:49 PM
Perhaps most don't even realize who the thief on the cross represented? He was certainly a literal person, but it has a much deeper meaning than that. At least I believe it does. But before we go there, why is he defined as a thief anyway? Luke defines him as an evil doer according to the Greek, so that's how I will define him.

I can't explain it, but sometimes when I'm reading Scriptures, things seem to literally jump off the pages at me. Things that I wasn't even considering. To get to my point, we need to go to Romans ch 6. This is what jumped off the page at me, probably a yr or so ago.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


Still don't see it? That old man in verse 6, this is that same evil doer
that was crucified with Christ, or IOW, he represents our old man that was put to death. Well, not literally here in Romans 6 but literally there at Calvary, but look carefully at these verses...Romans 6:6-8.

(Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him) Was not the evil doer(Luke 23:40-43) crucified with Him?

(that the body of sin might be destroyed) Wasn't the evil doer's(Luke 23:40-43) body destroyed when he died, (that henceforth we should not serve sin) in order that he should not serve sin any longer?

(For he that is dead is freed from sin) When the evil doer(Luke 23:40-43) died, he was freed from sin, correct? How? Because Christ told him he would be with Him in paradise. When would that be? When he died.

(Now if we be dead with Christ)Wasn't the evil doer(Luke 23:40-43) literally dead with Christ, (we believe that we shall also live with him) and didn't the evil doer(Luke 23:40-43) believe Christ, when Christ promised him He would be in paradise with Him?

Now check this out.

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Doesn't this then mean, looking at this from the perspective of the deeper meaning in Romans 6:6-8 that Jesus died in the old man's(evil doer's) place and saved him as well?


And another point I'd like to make.

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.


What do we see here? We see 2 condemned sinners ready to die. One appears to fear God, the other one doesn't. What sets them apart? One becomes a believer, the other one doesn't. The believer gets saved, the other one doesn't. The one that gets saved wasn't saved by his own works, but was saved by his trust in Christ. The other one simply could not save himself nor could Christ save him. Why? Because of disbelief.


And another point.

Luke 23:32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.
33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

Notice verse 33 "one on the right hand, and the other on the left"

I'm pretty confident that the evil doer who was with Jesus in paradise when he died was the one on the right. How do I come to that conclusion? Simple...do a study specifically on the differences between being on the right as opposed to being on the left. The sheep and the goats in Matthew 25 illustrate this concept.



My whole point here is perspective and how deep some are willing/able to see. No one may choose to believe or even consider what I have posted here, and that's your right, but if one really looks closely at what I wrote, I believe that they can see that there are indeed layers of spiritual truth hidden within Romans 5:6-8, well actually in all of the Bible. It would probaby literally take forever to discover even a fraction of it.

Just so that no one is confused, the idea is to not miss the obvious topical msg that is being taught in this passage in Romans 6, but that there also are deeper spiritual meanings to the verses as well. We can't confuse the two is all.
i do see your point. very interesting view! but like you said we cant mix the two. The thief was on the cross because of a crime he committed, but i see how you are looking at him as representing the old man. A very interesting contrast between the two criminals. Both started wrong. One changed, the other didnt. The cool think about the Scriptures is that when you really dig deep you can find some amazing things :hmm:

militarywife
Jan 12th 2009, 06:51 PM
My friend, the very act of acceptance is a work in itself.
AMEN

I wanted to add that Jesus said in Matthew 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
I don't see anywhere in there that says AFTER YOU DO GOOD WORKS then come to me...

Br. Barnabas
Jan 12th 2009, 06:52 PM
I would disagree with some on here because I would say that repentance is a work. To repent means to turn. To give up my will for the sake of someone else's. It is a daily action that we must all perform. We must daily repent and turn towards Jesus. It is not a one time action.

Also on the topic of the thread on the whole. Good works are to some extent required for salvation in a sense. Faith without works is dead. If we do not have good works then are we really living as we should be or as Christians. However, if one does not have time to perform good works it does not mean that they were not required it just means that they were unable to perform them. If the person had lived longer then they would have/should have performed good works. It is almost like a covenant that is made. The covenant can only be vaild while each of the members are alive. So when a believer dies he or she is released from that part of the covenant and give the promise of the covenant (or at least in this case). Think of it as a contract/covenant made with a indentured servant, they must work for the master as long as the covenant says or until they die. But a certain point the covenant is fulfilled and the reward of freedom from it is given. This is much like our life in Christ we are a servant, we must work for him, we make that choice when we accept the title of Christian/accept him. When we die or when he comes back we are given the reward of our work/faith, not just living on the new earth with him but the reward of a life well lived and love.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 06:53 PM
AMEN

I wanted to add that Jesus said in Matthew 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
I don't see anywhere in there that says AFTER YOU DO GOOD WORKS then come to me...

Right. "Apart from me you can do nothing" before we can even do anything we must be in the true vine. Step 1-get in the vine. Step 2- bear fruit

militarywife
Jan 12th 2009, 07:13 PM
Praise God for that instance of mercy God had and that moment of humbling the thief had.
I can imagine that at the very moment this thief sought Jesus for mercy WHAMO a vine was there and a huge peice of GODS LOVE was on it.
:hug:

fontz
Jan 12th 2009, 07:34 PM
Luke 23
39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

verse 40 leads me to believe that this thief did do at least one work before dying...he testified that Jesus is the Lord..that the other thief chose not to believe it of course cost him his very soul...

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 08:48 PM
While definitions are helpful in discussion, I would encourage you to seek your answers in scripture rather then the writing of men.


Ephesians 2:8-9


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast

Yes, scripture is the final authority. To defend the truths of the Bible, writings such as these were made. They do not trump the Bible, but instead get their answers from it.

If you want to see the scripture behind the answer, then there are footnotes which can be looked up.

I can make a new thread about these confessions, so this one stays on topic.

EDIT: Here's the thread. (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=154476)

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 10:44 PM
we are saved by grace thru faith

confession, repentance and calling on the Lord are sprung from faith. Reformed theologians will simplify it by the doctrine of regeneration. God changes the heart. The new heart has faith, repents, calls on the Lord, etc. It is the faith that saves, but the same heart that produces faith also produces all those other things as well, including loving the people of God, caring for widows, etc.


What gives weight to what they say? Why should I listen to what refofmed theologians say?

The doctrine of regeneration, does not deal with faith. Either it is faith alone or faith and confession, and/or, calling on the Lord, and/or, repentance. It can't be both.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 10:46 PM
No one was saved under the old covenant. By saying that you are saying that one could be saved by obeying the law, but that is simply not the case. Look what Paul says about Abraham:

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

When you look at the context from the preceding chapter you would see that the works spoken of here are works of the law. Abraham was not justified or saved by doing works of the law but rather was justified by his faith. He was saved under the new covenant just as you and I are. No one is saved apart from the new covenant of Christ's shed blood.

I did not say He was saved by observing the old covenant. He was saved while the old covenant was in effect.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 10:56 PM
What did the thief do?


"We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

"Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom"

Repentance?
Confessing Jesus as Lord?


Read into it what you want.

Read the account, He cofessed Jesus as Lord, when he said Jesus, Lord. He admitted he was a sinner justly condemned. He feared God, as evidenced by his statement to the other malifactor, do you not fear God? He realized he was a condemned siinner and turned to Christ.

Amos_with_goats
Jan 12th 2009, 11:09 PM
Yes, scripture is the final authority. To defend the truths of the Bible, writings such as these were made. They do not trump the Bible, but instead get their answers from it.

If you want to see the scripture behind the answer, then there are footnotes which can be looked up.

I can make a new thread about these confessions, so this one stays on topic.

EDIT: Here's the thread. (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=154476)

Thanks jrick, but no need for a new topic. I think it is helpful when discussing topics in 'Bible chat' to reference scripture rather then the writing of men. The closer to the source of Truth the better.

Thanks,

jrick
Jan 12th 2009, 11:19 PM
Thanks jrick, but no need for a new topic. I think it is helpful when discussing topics in 'Bible chat' to reference scripture rather then the writing of men. The closer to the source of Truth the better.

Thanks,



Ah, I see what you were saying.

Anyways, the thread has already been made, so feel free to vote. :)

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 11:33 PM
He admitted he was a sinner justly condemned

I'm saving this one.

Butch5 claims repentance is admitting you were a sinner justly condemned.

I'll even agree with that.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 11:38 PM
I'm saving this one.

Butch5 claims repentance is admitting you were a sinner justly condemned.

I'll even agree with that.

He admitted he was a siinner, then he turned to Christ. Do I always have to spell out every word?

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 04:26 PM
What gives weight to what they say? Why should I listen to what refofmed theologians say?

The doctrine of regeneration, does not deal with faith. Either it is faith alone or faith and confession, and/or, calling on the Lord, and/or, repentance. It can't be both.

the point is that once we are made a new creature, and God removes the heart of stone, everything necessary for salvation flows from that new heart. Repentance, faith, confession, are a reflection of a new creature.

Its not a matter of what reformed theologians say. The Bible says God will remove the old heart and give a new one. Thats regeneration/being born again by the Spirit.

We are saved by grace thru faith. However, the new heart also comes with all those other thing as well, repentance, good works, etc. It is the faith that saves, but its not only faith in the new heart. All the good things that we do inluding repentance, confession, etc, come from a change inside of us by God.

So yes, it is faith alone. And yes, the new heart produces that faith. ANd yes, the new heart also produces repentance, confession, etc. Thats why sometimes Jesus simply said believe in me. Other times He said repent. Other times the Bible just says confess. Which one is it? We are saved by faith. But deeper than that, the new heart not only has faith but also causes us to confess and cover all the other bases, inccluding works. The point is that faith saves, but a new heart also does many other things besides faith, but it is indeed faith that saves, not all the other stuff. You can have all the other things and not faith and you will not be saved.

But everyone pretty much knows my position on this here already. If there are anymore questions on where i stand please ask, if you understand but just disagree then thats OK;)

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 04:31 PM
the point is that once we are made a new creature, and God removes the heart of stone, everything necessary for salvation flows from that new heart. Repentance, faith, confession, are a reflection of a new creature.

But everyone pretty much knows my position on this here already. If there are anymore questions on where i stand please ask, if you understand but just disagree then thats OK;)

It wasn't a question of where you stand. You said, we are saved by faith alone, then you agreed we also have to have repentance, confession and calling on the Lord, if that is the case then we are not saved by faith alone.

Hey what about those scholars, have they found any Scripture yet?

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 04:39 PM
I would disagree with some on here because I would say that repentance is a work. To repent means to turn. To give up my will for the sake of someone else's. It is a daily action that we must all perform. We must daily repent and turn towards Jesus. It is not a one time action.

Also on the topic of the thread on the whole. Good works are to some extent required for salvation in a sense. Faith without works is dead. If we do not have good works then are we really living as we should be or as Christians. However, if one does not have time to perform good works it does not mean that they were not required it just means that they were unable to perform them. If the person had lived longer then they would have/should have performed good works. It is almost like a covenant that is made. The covenant can only be vaild while each of the members are alive. So when a believer dies he or she is released from that part of the covenant and give the promise of the covenant (or at least in this case). Think of it as a contract/covenant made with a indentured servant, they must work for the master as long as the covenant says or until they die. But a certain point the covenant is fulfilled and the reward of freedom from it is given. This is much like our life in Christ we are a servant, we must work for him, we make that choice when we accept the title of Christian/accept him. When we die or when he comes back we are given the reward of our work/faith, not just living on the new earth with him but the reward of a life well lived and love.


this is why i believe in the doctrine of regeneration. It simply means that true Christians have a new heart as God promised. They are new creatures. They are born of Spirit. From the new heart comes faith, repentance, works etc. It is the faith that saves but the same new heart that produces faith also produces repentance, works. Thats why faith without works is dead. It is a heart issue. If you have a new heart it will come with other good things. However of course we are saved by grace thru faith, but what is the evidence of true faith? a new heart. What is the evidence of a new heart? repentance, works, yadda yadda

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 04:44 PM
It wasn't a question of where you stand. You said, we are saved by faith alone, then you agreed we also have to have repentance, confession and calling on the Lord, if that is the case then we are not saved by faith alone.

Hey what about those scholars, have they found any Scripture yet?

i just got done editing that post with a little more detail to hopefully clear things up.

This is what i am saying:

The doctrine of regenration means that true Christians are born again by the Spirit. As God promised He would give us a new heart


The new heart is the source of life. Faith comes from a new heart, repentance from the new heart, confession from the new heart..."no one can confess Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit"

So, with that in mind, are we saved by grace thru faith alone? yes.

But what is the evidence of true faith? all of the other things that come from the new heart. true faith comes from a new creature. all things are made new.

So yes, we are saved by grace thru faith. But it is deeper than that. The same new heart from which we have faith and love God will also be repentant towards God and will also confess God and will also bring about good works. A good tree will produce good fruit.

Does that help you understand my position a little better?

John146
Jan 13th 2009, 04:47 PM
i just got done editing that post with a little more detail to hopefully clear things up.

This is what i am saying:

The doctrine of regenration means that true Christians are born again by the Spirit. As God promised He would give us a new heart


The new heart is the source of life. Faith comes from a new heart, repentance from the new heart, confession from the new heart..."no one can confess Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit"

So, with that in mind, are we saved by grace thru faith alone? yes.

But what is the evidence of true faith? all of the other things that come from the new heart. true faith comes from a new creature. all things are made new.

So yes, we are saved by grace thru faith. But it is deeper than that. The same new heart from which we have faith and love God will also be repentant towards God and will also confess God and will also bring about good works. A good tree will produce good fruit.

Does that help you understand my position a little better?So, do you believe that repentance precedes salvation or comes after?

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 04:56 PM
So, do you believe that repentance precedes salvation or comes after?

as Spurgeoun said i believe, It is not a matter of one before the other. It is a matter of a changed heart. From that heart comes both repentance and faith. As many try to explain it, i equate it to a coin. Faith on one side, repentance on the another. Jesus is the machine. Can you only put in half the coin in the machine? lol no. Does that mean we are saved by repentance? no. we are saved by faith, but faith is always accompanied by a repentant heart.

Faith and repentace are like two pedals on the same bike. The bike is the new heart. We ride the bike to heaven by peddeling lol

so my answer is faith and repentance happen at the same time because they cannot be seperated

Joe King
Jan 13th 2009, 05:33 PM
Who cares if they don't have any works?? They are saved!!!! With how short our lives are in relation to ETERNITY and our sinful nature, it is nothing short of a miracle that any of us are saved. Thank you Jesus!

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 05:35 PM
Who cares if they don't have any works?? They are saved!!!! With how short our lives are in relation to ETERNITY and our sinful nature, it is nothing short of a miracle that any of us are saved. Thank you Jesus! haha yup. It will be cool to say whatsup to the thief in heaven lol talk about diversity. in heaven there will be ex-murderers,prostitutes,thieves and every other kind of sinner saved by grace and washed clean by Jesus

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 07:10 PM
i just got done editing that post with a little more detail to hopefully clear things up.

This is what i am saying:

The doctrine of regenration means that true Christians are born again by the Spirit. As God promised He would give us a new heart


The new heart is the source of life. Faith comes from a new heart, repentance from the new heart, confession from the new heart..."no one can confess Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit"

So, with that in mind, are we saved by grace thru faith alone? yes.

But what is the evidence of true faith? all of the other things that come from the new heart. true faith comes from a new creature. all things are made new.

So yes, we are saved by grace thru faith. But it is deeper than that. The same new heart from which we have faith and love God will also be repentant towards God and will also confess God and will also bring about good works. A good tree will produce good fruit.

Does that help you understand my position a little better?

So then it is not faith, but regeneration that saves, correct?

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 07:13 PM
So then it is not faith, but regeneration that saves, correct?

it is faith. faith proceeds from a new heart. No new heart, no faith. but that is another story that goes back farther into the source of salvation, election, predestination, and all those things, which eventually lead to God. Ultimately it is God that saves. but i kno that we disagree on some of those matters so lets just agree to disagree for now:hug:

Joe King
Jan 13th 2009, 07:39 PM
haha yup. It will be cool to say whatsup to the thief in heaven lol talk about diversity. in heaven there will be ex-murderers,prostitutes,thieves and every other kind of sinner saved by grace and washed clean by Jesus

Yes, but I don't think we will even remember any of it. We will be too busy admiring the LORD face to face!!

John146
Jan 13th 2009, 08:36 PM
as Spurgeoun said i believe, It is not a matter of one before the other. It is a matter of a changed heart. From that heart comes both repentance and faith. As many try to explain it, i equate it to a coin. Faith on one side, repentance on the another. Jesus is the machine. Can you only put in half the coin in the machine? lol no. Does that mean we are saved by repentance? no. we are saved by faith, but faith is always accompanied by a repentant heart.

Faith and repentace are like two pedals on the same bike. The bike is the new heart. We ride the bike to heaven by peddeling lol

so my answer is faith and repentance happen at the same time because they cannot be seperatedWhat question are you answering? I didn't ask whether you believe repentance preceded faith. I asked whether you believe repentance preceded salvation or comes after.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 12:33 AM
What question are you answering? I didn't ask whether you believe repentance preceded faith. I asked whether you believe repentance preceded salvation or comes after.

i apolgize i completley misread your question. i thought you had asked does repentance precede faith,

when you say salvation, i am thinking of the whole process of salvation. When i think of salvation, i think of the entire package:

Election
Predestination
Effectual Calling
Regeneration(new heart given)
Conversion
Justification
Sanctification/Perserverance
Glorification


So i hope you see when you say "salvation", i see the whole thing as a process. I see the whole package as a work of God from beginning to end. Salvation is of the Lord Jonah 2:9. So does repentance proceed salvation? In my view it starts with God, so no repentance does not proceed "salvation'. Maybe more of what your saying is does repentance precede justification (right standing). In that case i would say yes, repentance precedes justification. but it is not the repentance that justifies, it is the faith. However, a new heart that has faith also has repentance.

Here is an illustration. Lets say you need to sign a contract to get a loan. It is not the pen that you use to get the loan that is counted for the loan to be approved. It is the signature. But obviously the signature is always accompanied by the pen. The signature is faith and the pen is repentance. I hope that doesnt sound too confusing. I am aware that many do not agree with things such as unconditional election so i understand if we dont see eye to eye.

It basically goes back farther than repentance. Your theology will be heavily influenced on whether you believe:

A. God looked into the future, saw who would choose Him, and then in response to their choice, in turn chose them for salvation (conditional election)

or

B. God elected to save some regardless of who they were or what they would choose(unconditional election). He elected people who were not looking for Him. As the Bible says no one seeks God, no one is righteous, no not one. So with this view (my current position) it is not a matter of does repentance preceed salvation, it is a matter of are you elect. Election preceeds salvation.


I dont mean to sound cocky i am just a young Christian studying the Bible trying to reconcile all Scripture so i know many may look at this and think i think know everything but i dont however this is my current position based on my study and conviction