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View Full Version : Calvinistic ‘Freewill’ Redux, ad Infinitum



grit
Jan 12th 2009, 04:19 PM
I'd like to pick the brain of my Calvinistic brothers and sisters in Christ concerning their position on free will. Do you believe man has free will - in the most general sense of the phrase? If so, how does you answer to that question relate to the question whether man has free will regarding salvation?

I'm very eager to engage you in a conversation on the issue, understand your position better, and bounce my own thoughts off you in the process.

Proceed!


I, as a believer in most of the teachings of John Calvin, believe that man has free will. However, i also believe that the "free will" that man has in enslaved to sin, hostile to God, and that the heart of man is wicked and stony. So i believe that man exercises free will under the bondage of sin. Christ sets us free from bondage…
…So, in relationship to salvation, it is my belief that those who exercise free will to repent and believe have been given a new heart to do so. As Christ said, you did not choose me, but I chose you…
I think that saying that a person with a heart of stone and a mind hostile to God can repent and believe while at the same time having that heart of stone that is desperately wicked is a little off. It is my conviction currently that that would be against what Scripture teaches. Its not that the hard-hearted don’t know about God or His ways however. They know the truth, but they suppress it in unrighteousness. So those who do not choose God are rightly condemned. They used their own free will to do exactly what they wanted to, which was to gratify their sinful passions….


…they cannot choose life unless God actually chose them first and worked the choosing in them. So where is there any actual freedom of choice? How is the condemning of sinners 'right' if they had not other choice than to choose to sin because of their sinful nature?

I’m what one would usually term a Calvinist. I agree that man has freewill, and I am in hearty agreement with reformedct’s excellent post. Brother Mark, jrick, thepenitent and others also posted (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=154223) on important considerations, chiefly a distinction in what Christians mean by freewill and, per your inquiry, how the will that we have relates through our salvation.

When we usually reference Calvin or Augustine or the predominant view of Christians through the centuries on this issue, it’s the supremacy and sovereignty of God that helps clear the air. What I mean is that not many Christians have ever doubted that only God is absolutely free and that our human freedom is limited and may never override the authority and power of God. Our freedom as humans is always limited by the higher freedom of God. Paganism, Humanism, and even Mormonism and other ‘works’ based world-views like to postulate that we have more power than we do, and are perfectly capable on our own to do either good or evil. Christianity teaches that God defines good and evil. Even Arminians, who agree with our need of God toward good, would usually agree that in our natural state we would rather choose what we want, what seems preferable to us, and that this sets up a conflict with choosing what God wants – that our choices are inclined to our will, which is naturally at enmity with perfect obedience to God.

The debate usually comes in defining that our predilection toward inconsistent perfection in God’s eyes, our lack of desire for the things of God, renders us morally unable to choose the good, even though God has created us with a natural ability to choose God. That is, our natural ability is irreparably corrupted by our own desires, which are in conflict with what God’s will. It may sound circular to say, as did Augustine, that we have freedom but do not have liberty, but, again, even Arminians would agree that we are in desperate need of God’s help in salvation.

Further, we Calvinists also agree that good works are very necessary to salvation, which is a continuing process for us, this side of Heaven, toward complete redemption. The difference is that Calvinists view that the Scriptures teach that these good works are essentially and perfectly provided through Christ and the grace of his righteousness, rather than any inkling of man’s desire to perfectly meet God’s demands, his will, of holiness.

A key passage for us is John 6:44:
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” – ESV

John 6:25-59, ESV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:25-59;&version=47;), (Biblegateway link)

alethos
Jan 12th 2009, 04:37 PM
A key passage for us is John 6:44:
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” –



A key word in that key passage is "unless" meaning not before. Therefore we can see from that "key" passage that once a man is drawn, he then can come. In other words, it's absolutely impossible to come before this drawing occurs.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 06:22 PM
even if you believe every person has the ability from birth to choose God(which i dont agree with but lets say it was true), it was still God who gave them the ability to choose Him. either way it begins with God.

alethos
Jan 12th 2009, 07:08 PM
even if you believe every person has the ability from birth to choose God(which i dont agree with but lets say it was true), it was still God who gave them the ability to choose Him. either way it begins with God.

From birth he is unable

From re-birth he is able

Veretax
Jan 12th 2009, 07:24 PM
A key passage for us is John 6:44:
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” – ESV

John 6:25-59, ESV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:25-59;&version=47;), (Biblegateway link)




Just for humors sake let's look at the different versions of this verse


John 6:44-45 (CEV)
44 No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day. 45 One of the prophets wrote, “God will teach all of them.” And so everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him will come to me.

John 6:44-45 (NLT)
44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 45 As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

John 6:44-45 (RSV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.

John 6:44-45 (NRSV)
44 No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.


John 6:44-45 (1901 ASV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.

John 6:44-45 (NAB)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.

John 6:44-45 (NKJV)
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


John 6:44-45 (KJV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


There are some differences in the comma usage, and particularly the verse that follows verse 45. I found that interesting. I looked up the word translated as draw and here's what Strong's says:

<li class="liNumbers">Strong's Greek #1670
1670 helkuo { hel-koo’-o} or helko { hel’-ko}

probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503, 227; v

AV - draw 8; 8

GK - 1816 { ἑλκύω }

1) to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel


For some reason this makes me think of the art of fishing with artificial lures.


My notes say that this is Tense/Voice/Mood #5661 whicH i had to look up. My resouces, and another site (http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5661) agree that it is the Aorist tense, Subjective mood.


(I wish I understood tenses better, but I found the above very interesting nonetheless)

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 07:41 PM
From birth he is unable

From re-birth he is able

yes i agree with you. I was just saying even if you believe we are able at birth it would still start with God because it is He who gives us the ability. As a reformed believer it is my conviction that a new heart must be given in order to repent and believe.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 09:10 PM
And where else is Strong's Greek 1670 used?

Drawing a net.
Drawing a sword.
Drawing Paul and Silas out of the temple. (oops, they used drag)
Drawing water.

Hmmm, did the net come willingly? The sword? The water? Paul and Silas?

Don't kid yourself. Everywhere helkuo is used, it may be translated by some as draw, but in every case is meant as drag.

Veretax
Jan 12th 2009, 09:25 PM
And where else is Strong's Greek 1670 used?

Drawing a net.
Drawing a sword.
Drawing Paul and Silas out of the temple. (oops, they used drag)
Drawing water.

Hmmm, did the net come willingly? The sword? The water? Paul and Silas?

Don't kid yourself. Everywhere helkuo is used, it may be translated by some as draw, but in every case is meant as drag.


IN the same Gospel of John Christ is said to have said:

Joh 12:32 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+12:32&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So if you want to get ULTRA technical, does that not mean he draws EVERYONE to him anyways? Seems to me that's a nullification to your objection.

As for when peter drew the sword? why did he do it? Was he doing it because he was acting or reacting? I believe he was reacting to what the situation was, in an act of "self defense" so to speak.

As for in Acts:
And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Seems to me they were compelled by the force of something (which was not God, but man).

Also in James:

Jas 2:6 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jas+2:6&version=kjv&showtools=yes) But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Again, each time this is used except for those two instances in John, the word is use din the context of men's compulsion upon the person or thing being spoken of.

But I'll rest again with what I began with:


Joh 12:32 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+12:32&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Seems it is not a particular drawing, but that all are drawn, just as that God is calling All sinners to repentance.

alethos
Jan 12th 2009, 11:05 PM
As a reformed believer it is my conviction that a new heart must be given in order to repent and believe.

As a non-reformed believer, I completely agree with that statement.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 11:10 PM
I’m what one would usually term a Calvinist. I agree that man has freewill, and I am in hearty agreement with reformedct’s excellent post. Brother Mark, jrick, thepenitent and others also posted (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=154223) on important considerations, chiefly a distinction in what Christians mean by freewill and, per your inquiry, how the will that we have relates through our salvation.

When we usually reference Calvin or Augustine or the predominant view of Christians through the centuries on this issue, it’s the supremacy and sovereignty of God that helps clear the air. What I mean is that not many Christians have ever doubted that only God is absolutely free and that our human freedom is limited and may never override the authority and power of God. Our freedom as humans is always limited by the higher freedom of God. Paganism, Humanism, and even Mormonism and other ‘works’ based world-views like to postulate that we have more power than we do, and are perfectly capable on our own to do either good or evil. Christianity teaches that God defines good and evil. Even Arminians, who agree with our need of God toward good, would usually agree that in our natural state we would rather choose what we want, what seems preferable to us, and that this sets up a conflict with choosing what God wants – that our choices are inclined to our will, which is naturally at enmity with perfect obedience to God.

The debate usually comes in defining that our predilection toward inconsistent perfection in God’s eyes, our lack of desire for the things of God, renders us morally unable to choose the good, even though God has created us with a natural ability to choose God. That is, our natural ability is irreparably corrupted by our own desires, which are in conflict with what God’s will. It may sound circular to say, as did Augustine, that we have freedom but do not have liberty, but, again, even Arminians would agree that we are in desperate need of God’s help in salvation.

Further, we Calvinists also agree that good works are very necessary to salvation, which is a continuing process for us, this side of Heaven, toward complete redemption. The difference is that Calvinists view that the Scriptures teach that these good works are essentially and perfectly provided through Christ and the grace of his righteousness, rather than any inkling of man’s desire to perfectly meet God’s demands, his will, of holiness.

A key passage for us is John 6:44:
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” – ESV

John 6:25-59, ESV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:25-59;&version=47;), (Biblegateway link)



John 6:44 does not support Calvinistic uncoditional election. It must be read in context.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 11:15 PM
IN the same Gospel of John Christ is said to have said:

Joh 12:32 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+12:32&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So if you want to get ULTRA technical, does that not mean he draws EVERYONE to him anyways? Seems to me that's a nullification to your objection.

As for when peter drew the sword? why did he do it? Was he doing it because he was acting or reacting? I believe he was reacting to what the situation was, in an act of "self defense" so to speak.

As for in Acts:
And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Seems to me they were compelled by the force of something (which was not God, but man).

Also in James:

Jas 2:6 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jas+2:6&version=kjv&showtools=yes) But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Again, each time this is used except for those two instances in John, the word is use din the context of men's compulsion upon the person or thing being spoken of.

But I'll rest again with what I began with:


Joh 12:32 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+12:32&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Seems it is not a particular drawing, but that all are drawn, just as that God is calling All sinners to repentance.


IF we take Yuckerboy's meaning we have universal salvation.

alethos
Jan 12th 2009, 11:19 PM
And where else is Strong's Greek 1670 used?

Drawing a net.
Drawing a sword.
Drawing Paul and Silas out of the temple. (oops, they used drag)
Drawing water.

Hmmm, did the net come willingly? The sword? The water? Paul and Silas?

Don't kid yourself. Everywhere helkuo is used, it may be translated by some as draw, but in every case is meant as drag.

Above is an perfect example of a word-study fallacy known as "word-loading." This occurs when a person takes a meaning of a word in one context and then seeks to apply that same meaning into a different context. They do this when they appeal to the use of helkuo in James 2:6, Acts 16:19 and other places, as justification for understanding John 6:44 as meaning drag or force.

I know the following verse is found in the OT, would this verse make sense if the word "drawn" was replaced with dragged?

Jeremiah. 31:3
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

In times past did God draw people by the use of loving kindness, but now has changed His approach from drawing with loving kindness to resorting to forcefully dragging people to Himself?

If so then we can't believe Scripture when it says.
Malachi 3:6 I am the Lord, I change not
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 11:24 PM
IN the same Gospel of John Christ is said to have said:

Joh 12:32 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+12:32&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So if you want to get ULTRA technical, does that not mean he draws EVERYONE to him anyways? Seems to me that's a nullification to your objection.

As for when peter drew the sword? why did he do it? Was he doing it because he was acting or reacting? I believe he was reacting to what the situation was, in an act of "self defense" so to speak.

As for in Acts:
And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Seems to me they were compelled by the force of something (which was not God, but man).

Also in James:

Jas 2:6 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jas+2:6&version=kjv&showtools=yes) But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Again, each time this is used except for those two instances in John, the word is use din the context of men's compulsion upon the person or thing being spoken of.

But I'll rest again with what I began with:


Joh 12:32 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+12:32&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Seems it is not a particular drawing, but that all are drawn, just as that God is calling All sinners to repentance.


Christ said "if I be lifted up from the earth".

The question is, was He? The answer, in my mind is yes.

So condition fulfilled, we must go to result.

Christ "will draw all men unto me."

Now, I say drag, you say guide.

So, does Christ guide all men to Him? If Yes, then Christ chose all for He guides those He chosen. Thus, universalism.

So, does Christ drag all men to Him? Hmmmm....

When do all men either willingly or unwillingly come to Christ?

Could it be? Nah. Well? It does seem to fit and we know that every other place helkuo is used, it means to drag neither willingly nor unwillingly....

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 11:28 PM
Above is an perfect example of a word-study fallacy known as "word-loading." This occurs when a person takes a meaning of a word in one context and then seeks to apply that same meaning into a different context. They do this when they appeal to the use of helkuo in James 2:6, Acts 16:19 and other places, as justification for understanding John 6:44 as meaning drag or force.

I know the following verse is found in the OT, would this verse make sense if the word "drawn" was replaced with dragged?

Jeremiah. 31:3
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

In times past did God draw people by the use of loving kindness, but now has changed His approach from drawing with loving kindness to resorting to forcefully dragging people to Himself?

If so then we can't believe Scripture when it says.
Malachi 3:6 I am the Lord, I change not
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever.

First, the word helkuo is not in Jeremiah.

Second, even when we look at that, it seems to work.

If you are in front of a bus, do I force you out of the way with lovingkindness? Or do I guide you out of the road? Here take my hand, the bus is roaring down the road at 80 MPH, but I want you to take my hand first....:rolleyes:

Yeah. I'm dragging you out of danger. Make no mistake.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 11:29 PM
Christ said "if I be lifted up from the earth".

The question is, was He? The answer, in my mind is yes.

So condition fulfilled, we must go to result.

Christ "will draw all men unto me."

Now, I say drag, you say guide.

So, does Christ guide all men to Him? If Yes, then Christ chose all for He guides those He chosen. Thus, universalism.

So, does Christ drag all men to Him? Hmmmm....

When do all men either willingly or unwillingly come to Christ?

Could it be? Nah. Well? It does seem to fit and we know that every other place helkuo is used, it means to drag neither willingly nor unwillingly....

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

you have the problem with drag, universalism.

Yukerboy
Jan 12th 2009, 11:31 PM
you have the problem with drag, universalism.

LOL!

Guide = Universally saved.
Drag = Universally judged.

alethos
Jan 12th 2009, 11:35 PM
First, the word helkuo is not in Jeremiah.

Second, even when we look at that, it seems to work.

If you are in front of a bus, do I force you out of the way with lovingkindness? Or do I guide you out of the road? Here take my hand, the bus is roaring down the road at 80 MPH, but I want you to take my hand first....:rolleyes:

Yeah. I'm dragging you out of danger. Make no mistake.

Then you believe there are two separate God's. The one in the OT who lovingly draws people to Himself, contrasted with a different God who must drag people to Himself because He is no longer powerful enough to draw them with loving kindness.

But the point you seem to miss is God doesn't change.

Butch5
Jan 12th 2009, 11:35 PM
First, the word helkuo is not in Jeremiah.

Second, even when we look at that, it seems to work.

If you are in front of a bus, do I force you out of the way with lovingkindness? Or do I guide you out of the road? Here take my hand, the bus is roaring down the road at 80 MPH, but I want you to take my hand first....:rolleyes:

Yeah. I'm dragging you out of danger. Make no mistake.


Helkuo appears three times in Jeremiah.

BroRog
Jan 13th 2009, 12:07 AM
Jesus said he would drag all men to himself. But did he mean to say that he would save them when they got there? After all, in another passage it says that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." And while all are confessing that Jesus is Lord, all will not be saved at that time.

I don't think.

alethos
Jan 13th 2009, 12:16 AM
Jesus said he would drag all men to himself.

The verse says draw

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him:

Drawing people to ones self is done in the NT the same way it was accomplished back in the OT

Jer. 31:3
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

The God of the OT is the same God of the NT. His methods haven't changed from the OT to the NT. God doesn't change (Mal 3:6)

Those who replace draw with drag use the "word loading" approach. This occurs when a person takes a meaning of a word in one context and then seeks to apply that same meaning into a different context. They do this when they appeal to the use of helkuo in James 2:6, Acts 16:19 and other places, as justification for understanding John 6:44 as meaning drag or force.

BroRog
Jan 13th 2009, 12:31 AM
The verse says draw

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him:

Drawing people to ones self is done in the NT the same way it was accomplished back in the OT

Jer. 31:3
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

The God of the OT is the same God of the NT. His methods haven't changed from the OT to the NT. God doesn't change (Mal 3:6)

Those who use replace draw with drag use the "word loading" approach. This occurs when a person takes a meaning of a word in one context and then seeks to apply that same meaning into a different context. They do this when they appeal to the use of helkuo in James 2:6, Acts 16:19 and other places, as justification for understanding John 6:44 as meaning drag or force.

First, we are not talking about John 6:44, we are talking about John 12:32, which is an entirely different context.

Having said that, I'm not sure it is effective or productive to interpret a Greek word by looking at a Hebrew text, especially when the NT has so many other examples to help us frame its syntactic range. Why wouldn't we take a look at the passages you mentioned? This seems reasonable to me.

Sirus
Jan 13th 2009, 02:03 AM
A key word in that key passage is "unless" meaning not before. Therefore we can see from that "key" passage that once a man is drawn, he then can come. In other words, it's absolutely impossible to come before this drawing occurs.As Butch5 pointed out John 6 must be read and understood in context. Calvinist don't do that often. As BroRog pointed out Jesus said he would draw all men unto him (lifted up -cross) which is the context of John 6. 2+2=4 folks. The Father sent the Son (so whosoever believes) to draw all men unto Him because no man comes to the Father but by the Son. John 6 -The bread of life. The body and the blood. The work of the Father is to believe in the Son. The work of the Son is the work of the Father -the cross.

context, context, context

Thank you!
Next!

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 02:54 AM
LOL!

Guide = Universally saved.
Drag = Universally judged.

How is that????

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 03:49 AM
The context of John 6:44, this statement was made during Jesus earthly ministry, at this time God was preparing the crucifiction and the spreading of the gospel. John 6:44 needs to be understood in this context. No one could come to Christ unless they were specifically drawn because God was choosing people through which to bring the gospel.

I would like to explain John 6:37:45, it is not speaking of Calvinistic election.


John 6:37-45 ( KJV )37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


First let's set the scene, God was setting the scene for the crucifiction, Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews. When Jesus said this, salvation had not yet gone to the gentiles, Jesus himself said,


Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said,I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Matthew 10:5-7 ( KJV ) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


So these verses only concern the Jews of Jesus day, also notice what Jesus said in verse 40,

John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one today will see the Son. Now Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws him.. God was setting up the crucifiction and for that to take place the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, so God blinded Israel,

Jesus

Mark 4:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Isaiah

Isaiah 6:9-10 ( KJV ) 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Paul

Romans 11:25 ( KJV ) 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul

Romans 11:8 ( KJV ) 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Now had they understood, they would not have crucified the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:8 ( KJV ) 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So since Israel was blinded NO ONE could come to Christ unless they were drawn by the Father, this is shown is verse 45,

John 6:45 ( KJV ) 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
And we see this happened,

Matthew 16:17 ( KJV ) 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So prior to the crucifiction all those who were drawn by the father come to Christ and he will in no way cast them out. Now as I said earlier this all took place so that the crucifiction could take place, after the crucifiction the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, which is shown by Jesus statement in John 12,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So we see that after the crucifiction the gospel has gone out to ALL men, now everyone has the opportunity to receive the Gospel.which is evidenced by Acts 2:36-38

Acts 2:36-38 ( KJV ) 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These same people who just a little while ago were crying out for Christ to be crucified were now cut to the heart and asked Peter what they needed to do to be saved.

Sirus
Jan 13th 2009, 04:22 AM
What Butch5 has said is the context is not what I meant by context. What I meant is in my post.

alethos
Jan 13th 2009, 11:25 AM
First, we are not talking about John 6:44, we are talking about John 12:32, which is an entirely different context.



The only difference between 6:44 and 12:32 is that v. 44 speaks of the absolute impossiblility of coming before being drawn, whereas v.32 is in reference to the extent of the drawing. Nevertheless both verses deal with this drawing.

alethos
Jan 13th 2009, 11:29 AM
As Butch5 pointed out John 6 must be read and understood in context.

I have read it in context (many times)
Please don't assume I haven't


Calvinist don't do that often.

My views are far from resembling those of Calvinist's (Read my closing signature if you haven't already. That should give you a clue)
Please don't assume I am a Calvinist

If your not sure ask rather than make inaccurate assumptions.

Yukerboy
Jan 13th 2009, 01:18 PM
How is that????

God sent Christ to save the world. Christ "guides" all men to Him, therefore, Christ saved all men. Universalism at its core or God failed.

God sent Christ to save the world (the world being some), Christ drags all men to Him, therefore, Christ judges all men.

Veretax
Jan 13th 2009, 01:33 PM
IF we take Yuckerboy's meaning we have universal salvation.

I'm not a believer in universal salvation, at least as far as it would mean all will be saved. That I don't believe. However, Christs sacrifice surely was sufficient that all could be saved. On that fact I have no doubt.

My point is, I see draw as a lure on a fishing line, used to draw a fish closer, and for what end, but so that it would take the hook into its mouth, and be caught. The fish still has to make the move to the lure, and some fish are "smart" enough that they won't fall for it either.

I see drawing as similar to calling. If God were to call everyone in the world by telephone to bring them the gospel, how many would answer, pick up, and listen, and how many would ignore it? The drawing/calling, does not preclude man's responsibility to respond to what he has heard in regards to Christ.



Christ said "if I be lifted up from the earth".

The question is, was He? The answer, in my mind is yes.

So condition fulfilled, we must go to result.

Christ "will draw all men unto me."

Now, I say drag, you say guide.

So, does Christ guide all men to Him? If Yes, then Christ chose all for He guides those He chosen. Thus, universalism.

So, does Christ drag all men to Him? Hmmmm....

When do all men either willingly or unwillingly come to Christ?

Could it be? Nah. Well? It does seem to fit and we know that every other place helkuo is used, it means to drag neither willingly nor unwillingly....

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.


LOL!

Guide = Universally saved.
Drag = Universally judged.


But the context of that passage is dealing with Salvation, not condemnation and judgement. My point here is that just because the word is used in passages of deliberate forced against will in other parts, does not mean it is always used in that manner. The Call of repentance and Salvation is to everyone, but only they that hear, listen, and respond to God's words shall receive salvation. That is the Gospel in a very tiny nutshell





So prior to the crucifiction all those who were drawn by the father come to Christ and he will in no way cast them out. Now as I said earlier this all took place so that the crucifiction could take place, after the crucifiction the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, which is shown by Jesus statement in John 12,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So we see that after the crucifiction the gospel has gone out to ALL men, now everyone has the opportunity to receive the Gospel.which is evidenced by Acts 2:36-38

Acts 2:36-38 ( KJV ) 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These same people who just a little while ago were crying out for Christ to be crucified were now cut to the heart and asked Peter what they needed to do to be saved.

I disagree that this drawing is indeed effectual on all. We know that not all of the Jews came to belief even after Pentecost.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 02:02 PM
God sent Christ to save the world. Christ "guides" all men to Him, therefore, Christ saved all men. Universalism at its core or God failed.

God sent Christ to save the world (the world being some), Christ drags all men to Him, therefore, Christ judges all men.

Hi Yukerboy!

Matt 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

I am not a Universalist a such. I do however believe that most all will eventually be saved. The lake of fire was made for the devil and his angels. It was not made for man, but some will have their part in the lake of fire.

BroRog
Jan 13th 2009, 02:36 PM
The only difference between 6:44 and 12:32 is that v. 44 speaks of the absolute impossiblility of coming before being drawn, whereas v.32 is in reference to the extent of the drawing. Nevertheless both verses deal with this drawing.

Can you show why 12:32 talks about salvation?

humbled
Jan 13th 2009, 02:37 PM
IN the same Gospel of John Christ is said to have said:

Joh 12:32 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+12:32&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So if you want to get ULTRA technical, does that not mean he draws EVERYONE to him anyways? Seems to me that's a nullification to your objection.

As for when peter drew the sword? why did he do it? Was he doing it because he was acting or reacting? I believe he was reacting to what the situation was, in an act of "self defense" so to speak.

As for in Acts:
And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Seems to me they were compelled by the force of something (which was not God, but man).

Also in James:

Jas 2:6 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jas+2:6&version=kjv&showtools=yes) But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Again, each time this is used except for those two instances in John, the word is use din the context of men's compulsion upon the person or thing being spoken of.

But I'll rest again with what I began with:


Joh 12:32 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+12:32&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Seems it is not a particular drawing, but that all are drawn, just as that God is calling All sinners to repentance.
To remain consistent with the rest of Scripture, Jesus will draw all that the Father gives him when He is lifted up. The greek pas (all) is not universal. It is contextual.

That harmonizes these two passages, does it not?

If one passage states that nobody can come unless the Father draws them, and another passage states that Christ will draw everyone (Arminian interpretation) then we have a contradiction, unless the conclusion is universalism (everyone is saved), for of all the Father gives the Son, none are lost (Jn 6.39). But if we set those two in harmony rather than tension, we see that Christ's lifting up is the means by which the Father draws all He is giving to the Son, for we can certainly see with our own eyes that not all are drawn to Christ. Many have never even heard of Christ.

BroRog
Jan 13th 2009, 02:42 PM
To remain consistent with the rest of Scripture, Jesus will draw all that the Father gives him when He is lifted up. The greek pas (all) is not universal. It is contextual.

That harmonizes these two passages, does it not?

If one passage states that nobody can come unless the Father draws them, and another passage states that Christ will draw everyone (Arminian interpretation) then we have a contradiction, unless the conclusion is universalism (everyone is saved), for of all the Father gives the Son, none are lost (Jn 6.39). But if we set those two in harmony rather than tension, we see that Christ's lifting up is the means by which the Father draws all He is giving to the Son, for we can certainly see with our own eyes that not all are drawn to Christ. Many have never even heard of Christ.

We only have a contradiction if 12:32 refers to salvation. Jesus may be speaking of his second advent when he drags all men to stand before him to give an account of themselves.

humbled
Jan 13th 2009, 02:47 PM
We only have a contradiction if 12:32 refers to salvation. Jesus may be speaking of his second advent when he drags all men to stand before him to give an account of themselves.interesting ... I'd never looked at it in that context before. But I don't think He is speaking of drawing men to judgment. The reference to being lifted up speaks in the same language where Moses held up the serpent to heal the people who looked upon it. See Numbers 21 and John 3

Veretax
Jan 13th 2009, 02:48 PM
To remain consistent with the rest of Scripture, Jesus will draw all that the Father gives him when He is lifted up. The greek pas (all) is not universal. It is contextual.

That harmonizes these two passages, does it not?

If one passage states that nobody can come unless the Father draws them, and another passage states that Christ will draw everyone (Arminian interpretation) then we have a contradiction, unless the conclusion is universalism (everyone is saved), for of all the Father gives the Son, none are lost (Jn 6.39). But if we set those two in harmony rather than tension, we see that Christ's lifting up is the means by which the Father draws all He is giving to the Son, for we can certainly see with our own eyes that not all are drawn to Christ. Many have never even heard of Christ.


Except that we know Christ and the father were in fact one and the Same God. There is no such contradiction.



interesting ... I'd never looked at it in that context before. But I don't think He is speaking of drawing men to judgment. The reference to being lifted up speaks in the same language where Moses held up the serpent to heal the people who looked upon it. See Numbers 21 and John 3

Bingo! that is Exactly what Christ was saying to these "Jews". Israel had sinned in the wilderness, and serpents/snakes came into the camp and they were venomous. Many in the camp were bitten and died, so God told moses, or was it Aaron (memory is fuzzy on that), to make this staff with a bronze I think it was snake rapped around the end, so that if anyone was bitten if they looked upon it in faith they would survive the viper's venom. (Side Note: I believe this is the same symbol we often see used in reference to the medical profession)

This is precisely what Jesus was referring to, I wholly concur.



Adding to this My point , here is that God throughout scripture calls every single one of us to repent. The call to repentance is not only to those who believe, but to all men kind. However, man being sinful, chooses to ignore or deny God's calling, and thus remain in sin. Therefore God's call to salvation through Christ is only effectual for them that choose to put their faith in Christ as the propitiation for their sins.

humbled
Jan 13th 2009, 02:57 PM
Except that we know Christ and the father were in fact one and the Same God. There is no such contradiction.If on one hand, you have the Father drawing some (for in orthodox Christianity not all are given to the Son) and in the other hand you have the Son drawing everyone to Himself, you have a contradiction in the Godhead. That is why these two verses MUST harmonize. The Arminian interpretation falls short of this goal in my opinion.

grit
Jan 13th 2009, 03:03 PM
I hope the dialog thus far might be helpful to the initial inquirer, Pilgrimtozion.

As a general response, I think it’s been a bit unfair to characterize Calvinistic insight into the passage in John 6 of the OP as ‘out of context’, since I linked to most of the chapter in my first post.

There’s some insightful discussions of the passage elsewhere on the web that I’ll not link to, but it’s certainly true that Calvinists in general like Kittel’s definition of elko. Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament defines elko as "to compel by irresistible superiority". The linguistic and lexicographical meaning of elko is "to compel" (Kittel, Vol. 2, p. 503). And that we rightly turn to use of the term in Acts 16:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2016:19-21;&version=49;) and James 2:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:5-7;&version=50;), where “dragged” and “drag” are much more compelling renderings than “woo” or “lure”.

I’ll have to add that I do not accept Universalism, while affirming that I fully accept and have absolutely no problem with every knee bowing before God, and every tongue confessing God (Romans 14:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=14&verse=10&end_verse=12&version=15&context=context), Phillipians 2:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202:9-11;&version=47;).).

Veretax
Jan 13th 2009, 03:42 PM
If on one hand, you have the Father drawing some (for in orthodox Christianity not all are given to the Son) and in the other hand you have the Son drawing everyone to Himself, you have a contradiction in the Godhead. That is why these two verses MUST harmonize. The Arminian interpretation falls short of this goal in my opinion.

First off, you mistake me for an Arminian, and I am not.

I see The call of salvation, the drawing as to All men (and women), I do not believe in limited atonement, that being that Christ really only died for the "elect". I believe Christ died for all, and as such the invitation to eternal life is to all. That many choose to reject it is not a problem with the caller (God), or the message of the caller (the gospel), but in the recipient or receiver.

Let's remember what James says:

James 4:7-10 (NKJV)

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.


If God Forcibly compels people to him, than why does man have the option of Submission? Why is he then Told to resist the Devil? Why does james call them to Draw near to God, if God is the one who draws?

Hence why I say that God Calls and draws all to repentance, but only they that accept that call can receive salvation.

If all that was necessary was for God to grab men by the hearts and pull them to him, do you not think he would have already done that even as far back as the OT? There is a reason God does not drag us in chains in compulsion, he desires us to glorify him in our liberty.


Let us not forget the ultimate reason that Jesus came into this world:

1 Timothy 1:15 (NKJV)

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Lastly:


1 Timothy 2:1-7 (NKJV)

2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying— a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.


2 Peter 3:8-9 (NKJV)

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 04:18 PM
God sent Christ to save the world. Christ "guides" all men to Him, therefore, Christ saved all men. Universalism at its core or God failed.

God sent Christ to save the world (the world being some), Christ drags all men to Him, therefore, Christ judges all men.

That doesn't make sense, what constitutes the change from salvation to judgment.

Also, just because Christ draws all men, that doesn't mean all men come. No universalism.

In the context of John 12:32, there is nothing that warrants an interpretation that limits the, "all men", to some men. Also we know from other Scriptures that Christ indeed came for all men.


John 1:5-9 ( KJV ) 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


Hebrews 2:9 ( KJV ) 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

That's not some men or all kinds of men, that is every single man (person).

Butch5
Jan 13th 2009, 04:26 PM
I'm not a believer in universal salvation, at least as far as it would mean all will be saved. That I don't believe. However, Christs sacrifice surely was sufficient that all could be saved. On that fact I have no doubt.

My point is, I see draw as a lure on a fishing line, used to draw a fish closer, and for what end, but so that it would take the hook into its mouth, and be caught. The fish still has to make the move to the lure, and some fish are "smart" enough that they won't fall for it either.

I see drawing as similar to calling. If God were to call everyone in the world by telephone to bring them the gospel, how many would answer, pick up, and listen, and how many would ignore it? The drawing/calling, does not preclude man's responsibility to respond to what he has heard in regards to Christ.

I totally agree.

John146
Jan 13th 2009, 04:28 PM
First off, you mistake me for an Arminian, and I am not.

I see The call of salvation, the drawing as to All men (and women), I do not believe in limited atonement, that being that Christ really only died for the "elect". I believe Christ died for all, and as such the invitation to eternal life is to all. That many choose to reject it is not a problem with the caller (God), or the message of the caller (the gospel), but in the recipient or receiver.

Let's remember what James says:

James 4:7-10 (NKJV)

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.


If God Forcibly compels people to him, than why does man have the option of Submission? Why is he then Told to resist the Devil? Why does james call them to Draw near to God, if God is the one who draws?

Hence why I say that God Calls and draws all to repentance, but only they that accept that call can receive salvation.

If all that was necessary was for God to grab men by the hearts and pull them to him, do you not think he would have already done that even as far back as the OT? There is a reason God does not drag us in chains in compulsion, he desires us to glorify him in our liberty.


Let us not forget the ultimate reason that Jesus came into this world:

1 Timothy 1:15 (NKJV)

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Lastly:


1 Timothy 2:1-7 (NKJV)

2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying— a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.


2 Peter 3:8-9 (NKJV)

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.Well said. I completely agree.

Yukerboy
Jan 13th 2009, 05:05 PM
But the context of that passage is dealing with Salvation, not condemnation and judgement. My point here is that just because the word is used in passages of deliberate forced against will in other parts, does not mean it is always used in that manner. The Call of repentance and Salvation is to everyone, but only they that hear, listen, and respond to God's words shall receive salvation. That is the Gospel in a very tiny nutshell

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Christ raises up those that the Father draws. If the Father draws all, then all are raised up.

Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

All who are drawn learn from God and listen to God. If all are drawn, then all learn from God, and all come to Christ.

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

All men will be drawn to Christ when Christ is lifted from the earth.

So, all men come to Christ.

Or, draw = drag, which then means that all men are dragged to Christ (White Throne Judgement) and when God said No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws Him would not be a universal dragging, but only those that God dragged to Christ.

You will never see me disagree that all are called. However, that call can only be responded to by those God chooses to respond. (Christ not losing any that the Father gives Him). Thus, many are called, but few are chosen.

alethos
Jan 13th 2009, 08:30 PM
Can you show why 12:32 talks about salvation?

Sure, right after you show me where I mentioned "salvation" in my reply.

Veretax
Jan 13th 2009, 08:50 PM
Numbers 21:4-9 (NKJV)

4 Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.

7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.


This "Draw" is similar verbage to what Jeremiah used also

Jeremiah 31:1-3 (NKJV)


31 “At the same time,” says the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”

2 Thus says the Lord:

“The people who survived the sword

Found grace in the wilderness

Israel, when I went to give him rest.”

3 The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying:

“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;

Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.

John146
Jan 13th 2009, 08:53 PM
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Christ raises up those that the Father draws. If the Father draws all, then all are raised up.

Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

All who are drawn learn from God and listen to God. If all are drawn, then all learn from God, and all come to Christ.

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

All men will be drawn to Christ when Christ is lifted from the earth.

So, all men come to Christ.

Or, draw = drag, which then means that all men are dragged to Christ (White Throne Judgement) and when God said No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws Him would not be a universal dragging, but only those that God dragged to Christ.

You will never see me disagree that all are called. However, that call can only be responded to by those God chooses to respond. (Christ not losing any that the Father gives Him). Thus, many are called, but few are chosen.Why bother calling people who (supposedly) can't respond? It would be like sending out a wedding invitation to to someone you know would not be able to attend. It wouldn't make any sense. When you read the parable of Matthew 22:1-14 you can see that the reason people are not saved is because they "would not" (Matt 22:3) accept the invitation or offer of salvation and not because they could not. The ones who are chosen are the ones who responded to the call with repentance and faith rather than rejecting it.

BroRog
Jan 14th 2009, 12:27 AM
Sure, right after you show me where I mentioned "salvation" in my reply.

Sorry. I misunderstood.

BroRog
Jan 14th 2009, 12:52 AM
Why bother calling people who (supposedly) can't respond? It would be like sending out a wedding invitation to to someone you know would not be able to attend. It wouldn't make any sense. When you read the parable of Matthew 22:1-14 you can see that the reason people are not saved is because they "would not" (Matt 22:3) accept the invitation or offer of salvation and not because they could not. The ones who are chosen are the ones who responded to the call with repentance and faith rather than rejecting it.

Jesus is saying that when people refuse to respond, the reason is because God has not drawn them. It isn't a matter of can or can't. It's a matter of will or won't.

Take a look at this passage, which falls in the middle of a larger exchange and just after Jesus fed five thousand people with a little boy's lunch.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." 30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?

To be frank, what a willfully dumb question. Jesus just fed five thousand people with nothing more than a few fish and a couple of loaves of bread. What can possibly explain the fact that these people were so stubbornly and willfully ignorant? Jesus says, well, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . ." It just ain't gonna happen. Nothing but supernatural intervention will be able to cut through this kind of resistance to the obvious facts.

Jesus casts out demons from people. What is their explanation? Jesus must be working for Satan. Again, what a willfully ignorant thing to say. This kind of resistance to the truth is inexplicable.

Now I might be tempted to say to myself, "well, I would never be THAT willfully ignorant. I would have been cool, and accepted Jesus right away." But that would be a total lie. I had to go down pretty far to finally hear the message.

Are you going to say that some people are smart enough, cool enough, hip enough, and never resistant to the truth such that they immediately follow Jesus? How many testimonies have you read like this?

I was going along just fine, and then I heard the message about Jesus Christ. And I just resonated with the message. I always understood that I was a sinner and had no problem bending the knee to Jesus.

Yea right. :lol:

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 01:48 AM
I have read it in context (many times)
Please don't assume I haven'tWho assumed? Your belief and use of John 6 to back that belief is fact.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 04:00 AM
Why bother calling people who (supposedly) can't respond? It would be like sending out a wedding invitation to to someone you know would not be able to attend.

Did God send out the invitations? Did God know they would not attend?

As you said, why send invitations out to those that you know would not attend...


When you read the parable of Matthew 22:1-14 you can see that the reason people are not saved is because they "would not" (Matt 22:3) accept the invitation or offer of salvation and not because they could not.

I see Christ verifying what I say by stating many are called, but few are chosen.


The ones who are chosen are the ones who responded to the call with repentance and faith rather than rejecting it.

Very good! Now, who does the Bible say gives repentance and faith?

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 04:47 AM
Very good! Now, who does the Bible say gives repentance and faith?Can't wait to see these!:rofl:

Veretax
Jan 14th 2009, 12:53 PM
Jesus is saying that when people refuse to respond, the reason is because God has not drawn them. It isn't a matter of can or can't. It's a matter of will or won't.

Take a look at this passage, which falls in the middle of a larger exchange and just after Jesus fed five thousand people with a little boy's lunch.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." 30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?

To be frank, what a willfully dumb question. Jesus just fed five thousand people with nothing more than a few fish and a couple of loaves of bread. What can possibly explain the fact that these people were so stubbornly and willfully ignorant? Jesus says, well, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . ." It just ain't gonna happen. Nothing but supernatural intervention will be able to cut through this kind of resistance to the obvious facts.

Jesus casts out demons from people. What is their explanation? Jesus must be working for Satan. Again, what a willfully ignorant thing to say. This kind of resistance to the truth is inexplicable.

Now I might be tempted to say to myself, "well, I would never be THAT willfully ignorant. I would have been cool, and accepted Jesus right away." But that would be a total lie. I had to go down pretty far to finally hear the message.

Are you going to say that some people are smart enough, cool enough, hip enough, and never resistant to the truth such that they immediately follow Jesus? How many testimonies have you read like this?

I was going along just fine, and then I heard the message about Jesus Christ. And I just resonated with the message. I always understood that I was a sinner and had no problem bending the knee to Jesus.

Yea right. :lol:

You are right about one thing, and earlier in my life I recall saying that I could never fall into x or y temptation. Have it be known that the devil has tempted me often in x or y since, and resisting it in my own strength would be impossible. Only through Christ is such ressitance possible.

In my case, my testimony, I was raised in a Reformed Faith Presbyterian Church, in a so called "Christian Home". I had access to God's word, went to sunday school with regularity, VBS, etc. I even remember some of the Westminister Shorter Catechism's that they once had us memorize.

As I become a young child, I found myself becoming a perfectionist, striving in my flesh to be perfect, and all the while failing with all my best efforts. I knew of Christ from my up bringining, and I knew the bible then better than most my age, yet I did not have faith, I did not understand what it meant to fully trust Christ. I thought it all relied upon me, as we were taught that we had to "persevere", but still there was no faith.

Then one winter I had the honor of going to a weekend "Snow camp" up in Seneca Hills camp north of Pittsburgh. There, away from worldly distractions, my heart was ready to hear and to listen, and that Saturday night on a cold eve in February, our camp counselor, a Man who I do not even remember where he was from, gave a devotional followed by an invitation. The message was for me, God convicted me that I was missing something, and I didn't understand what, so i raised my hand when the invitation came, and my best friend and his brother and the others from my church went down to play basketball (I think that's where they went, I wasn't with them so I'm not 100% sure), and there that man showed me that Christ could indeed forgive all my sin.

See what I had been unwilling to acknowledge all that time, was that I needed Christ to forgive all my sin to be right with God, up until then i was resting in my own work and efforts to be perfect, and I was miserable.

That night accepted Christ and immediately my heart and life changed. My walk, my speech, everything I did, everything I perceived were all viewed with new eyes. I have never once doubted my faith of that young age of 11, because I know the work Christ did in my life not many days after that night. In fact that night, I slept so soundly, thatt they had to shake me to wake me up in the middle of the night when the cabin's heat went out.


I have and never will look and turn my back on what Christ has already done in my life, and I find it hard to understand how anyone would go back to the filthy darkness we were in before we are saved. Stumble and sin on occasion, sure I can understand why we do thus, but never turn our back on the Lord, I just don't believe it is possible for a person, born again and indwelled by the Spirit to ever choose another path.




Did God send out the invitations? Did God know they would not attend?

As you said, why send invitations out to those that you know would not attend...



I see Christ verifying what I say by stating many are called, but few are chosen.



Very good! Now, who does the Bible say gives repentance and faith?

Do you remember the Parable of the land owner? perhaps that may give us some insight, because I believe God invites all because then they are without excuse when the day of judgment comes.

Luke 20:9-18 (NKJV)

"Parable of the Vineyard Owner"

Also in: Matt. 21:33–44; Mark 12:1–11

9 Then He began to tell the people this parable: “A certain man planted a vineyard, leased it to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time. 10 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the vinedressers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 Again he sent another servant; and they beat him also, treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. 12 And again he sent a third; and they wounded him also and cast him out.

13 “Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son. Probably they will respect him when they see him.’ 14 But when the vinedressers saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.’ 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.”

And when they heard it they said, “Certainly not!”

17 Then He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written:

‘The stone which the builders rejected

Has become the chief cornerstone’ ?

18 Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”



So I say the reason the invite is to all is because they are now without excuse.

Br. Barnabas
Jan 14th 2009, 06:46 PM
You know whenever I hear Calvinists talk they all ways bring up the sovereignty of God. But it really seems like they uphold sovereignty and sacrifice loving, compassionate, powerful. Let me explain; you want God to be in control of everything. That is fine but he cannot be as loving then or compassionate or powerful. Because he choose who would be saved because you have drained the cross of Christ of much of it's power. Because Jesus no longer died for all but only the "elect." So there goes a lot of God's power because he was not able to redeem the whole world but only the elect. Like he had some maximum capacity for redemption. There is the power issue I have. The loving comes in because again he does not/cannot offer salvation to all people. It also takes away because he has not given his creation free will. So it is really when you get right down to it God's fault that we sin or sinned to begin with. Because he told Adam and Eve to not eat the fruit from the tree but did not give them free will to do as they pleased. Compassion follows the same line of reasoning. He does not have compassion on any but the "elect" and they have no way of any of the other people feeling the love of God or his compassion.

The God that Calvinists come up with is not a God that I would like to worship. Sure he has control but he lacks so many other qualities that we are told the God of the Bible has. Give me a God that allows his creation to have control and loves them and offers himself and his love to all his creation, a God who is willing to be rejected, yet still holds out his arms in love.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 08:30 PM
Jesus is saying that when people refuse to respond, the reason is because God has not drawn them. It isn't a matter of can or can't. It's a matter of will or won't.

Take a look at this passage, which falls in the middle of a larger exchange and just after Jesus fed five thousand people with a little boy's lunch.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." 30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?

To be frank, what a willfully dumb question. Jesus just fed five thousand people with nothing more than a few fish and a couple of loaves of bread. What can possibly explain the fact that these people were so stubbornly and willfully ignorant? Jesus says, well, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . ." It just ain't gonna happen. Nothing but supernatural intervention will be able to cut through this kind of resistance to the obvious facts.

Jesus casts out demons from people. What is their explanation? Jesus must be working for Satan. Again, what a willfully ignorant thing to say. This kind of resistance to the truth is inexplicable.

Now I might be tempted to say to myself, "well, I would never be THAT willfully ignorant. I would have been cool, and accepted Jesus right away." But that would be a total lie. I had to go down pretty far to finally hear the message.

Are you going to say that some people are smart enough, cool enough, hip enough, and never resistant to the truth such that they immediately follow Jesus? How many testimonies have you read like this?

I was going along just fine, and then I heard the message about Jesus Christ. And I just resonated with the message. I always understood that I was a sinner and had no problem bending the knee to Jesus.

Yea right. :lol:I'm afraid you have the same problem that "the house of Israel" had in Ezekiel 18. You are making God out to be unequal but He is equal in what He expects from all people. He is not a respecter of persons. If He only gave some a chance to be saved while not giving the rest a chance He would be unequal. Please read the following passage carefully:

Ezekiel 18
23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


This passage shows clearly that God does not want anyone to die in a state of wickedness and rebelliousness against Him but instead wants all people to turn from their wicked ways so that they will live. This goes along with what is taught in verses like 1 Tim 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 which indicate that God desires all people to repent and be saved. He makes all people responsible to choose to repent and believe in Christ in order to be saved. You take all responsibility away from man because you say God does everything. Your doctrine says that God only desires some people to be saved and He saves those people while not giving the rest any chance to be saved.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 08:38 PM
Did God send out the invitations? Did God know they would not attend?Yes and yes. Just because God knows something in advance doesn't mean He determined it to be that way. He knows things in advance because He is outside the realm of time and space. Within the realm of time and space, He gives people the choice of whether to accept or reject Christ.


As you said, why send invitations out to those that you know would not attend...In the realm of time and space it is not known how each person will respond until they actually respond. Outside that realm, God knows. If He was confined within this realm then even God wouldn't know until it happened. But He's not confined within this realm so it's pointless to look at it that way.


I see Christ verifying what I say by stating many are called, but few are chosen.You are not giving any answer for why people are called despite supposedly not having any ability to favorably respond to the call. What is your explanation for that?


Very good! Now, who does the Bible say gives repentance and faith?It doesn't say God gives repentance and saving faith. That doctrine came about due to misinterpretations of a few particular verses while apparently ignoring many other verses that contradict that view.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 08:42 PM
So I say the reason the invite is to all is because they are now without excuse.I agree. If some did not have the ability to repent and believe then it sure seems like that would be quite an excuse that they could make. But there will not be any excuse on judgment day.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 08:46 PM
It doesn't say God gives repentance and saving faith.

Either it does or it doesn't. Either you give words new definitions or God meant what He said.

You have been saved by grace through faith and faith was not of yourself, it is a gift of God.

God grants repentance.

God grants the saved the ability to believe in Christ.

These are biblical concepts that must jive with the rest of Scripture. Your words do not.

Take it or leave it. Believe the Word of God or not....or redefine the words to fit your theology.

have a blast.

BroRog
Jan 14th 2009, 09:20 PM
I'm afraid you have the same problem that "the house of Israel" had in Ezekiel 18. You are making God out to be unequal but He is equal in what He expects from all people. He is not a respecter of persons. If He only gave some a chance to be saved while not giving the rest a chance He would be unequal. Please read the following passage carefully:

Ezekiel 18
23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


This passage shows clearly that God does not want anyone to die in a state of wickedness and rebelliousness against Him but instead wants all people to turn from their wicked ways so that they will live. This goes along with what is taught in verses like 1 Tim 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 which indicate that God desires all people to repent and be saved. He makes all people responsible to choose to repent and believe in Christ in order to be saved. You take all responsibility away from man because you say God does everything. Your doctrine says that God only desires some people to be saved and He saves those people while not giving the rest any chance to be saved.

I guess Jesus is wrong then. I guess people can come to him, even if the Father hasn't drawn them. My mistake.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 09:33 PM
Either it does or it doesn't. Either you give words new definitions or God meant what He said.God meant what He said. I happen to disagree with what you think He said regarding this particular topic.


You have been saved by grace through faith and faith was not of yourself, it is a gift of God.No, salvation is not of myself. Notice the next verse says the same thing that is not of ourselves is also not of works?

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Do you think he is saying that faith is not of works? That wouldn't make much sense. No, it is salvation that is by grace, salvation that is through faith, salvation that is not of our own works and salvation that is the gift of God.

John 3:16 says that whosoever believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life. Clearly, it is our own faith that relates to salvation and eternal life. Romans 6:23 says the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord which supports my claim that in Ephesians 2:8 the gift of God is salvation rather than faith.


God grants repentance.

God grants the saved the ability to believe in Christ.All people have that ability and that is why God desires all to be saved and commands all to repent because He knows He gave all people that ability.


These are biblical concepts that must jive with the rest of Scripture. Your words do not.That's the problem. The concepts that you're trying to promote don't jive with the rest of scripture, as I've been showing.


Take it or leave it. Believe the Word of God or not....or redefine the words to fit your theology.I believe the Word of God. Thankfully, your opinions and interpretations are not the Word of God.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 09:36 PM
I guess Jesus is wrong then. I guess people can come to him, even if the Father hasn't drawn them. My mistake.Where did I say that? Try reading my post again and then show me where I ever said that. I guess you don't want to respond specifically to anything I actually did say?

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 09:54 PM
the gift of God is salvation rather than faith.


as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

Faith is given by God
Salvation is given by God
Belief is given by God.
Repentance is given by God.
Men are bound over to disobedience by God.
Some are destined to doom by God.
We are given to Christ by God.
The will of God is that none that are given to Christ be lost.

Until you rectify what you believe with what the Scripture states, you will continue in your doctrine of men.

And you are permitted to. Just because you disagree with what God said doesn't mean that you are not born again.

alethos
Jan 14th 2009, 10:03 PM
God meant what He said. I happen to disagree with what you think He said regarding this particular topic.

No, salvation is not of myself. Notice the next verse says the same thing that is not of ourselves is also not of works?

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Do you think he is saying that faith is not of works? That wouldn't make much sense. No, it is salvation that is by grace, salvation that is through faith, salvation that is not of our own works and salvation that is the gift of God.

John 3:16 says that whosoever believes in Christ will not perish but have everlasting life. Clearly, it is our own faith that relates to salvation and eternal life. Romans 6:23 says the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord which supports my claim that in Ephesians 2:8 the gift of God is salvation rather than faith.

All people have that ability and that is why God desires all to be saved and commands all to repent because He knows He gave all people that ability.

That's the problem. The concepts that you're trying to promote don't jive with the rest of scripture, as I've been showing.

I believe the Word of God. Thankfully, your opinions and interpretations are not the Word of God.

http://mediajunkie.com/jeffgreen/spleen/bush_thumbs_up.jpg

alethos
Jan 14th 2009, 10:06 PM
Until you rectify what you believe with what the Scripture states, you will continue in your doctrine of men.



http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb/20070410/Emotiy-Girl-Thumbs-Down-278042.jpg

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 10:06 PM
as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

Faith is given by GodNot saving faith. You are equating a measure of faith, which is given to all people, with the faith that is required to believe in Christ in order to not perish and receive everlasting life. Where is the scriptural support for that idea?

As far as faith as a spiritual gift, if you're going to try to say that is saving faith then you would need to explain why that spiritual gift is not given to all believers. :hmm:


Salvation is given by GodTo those who repent and believe in Christ


Belief is given by God.No, it isn't. He requires man to choose to believe. There is no other explanation for why people are condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18). It would not make sense for people to be condemned for not believing if they didn't even have the ability to believe.


Repentance is given by God.Same thing as faith: He commands all people to willfully choose to repent and if they don't, they will be punished on judgment day.


Men are bound over to disobedience by God.

Some are destined to doom by God.Only after rejecting Him first. See Romans 1, for example.


We are given to Christ by God.Those who believe are given to Him


Until you rectify what you believe with what the Scripture states, you will continue in your doctrine of men.

And you are permitted to. Just because you disagree with what God said doesn't mean that you are not born again.Why are you so arrogant and immature? Maybe one day you will grow up. Get back to me when you do and we can discuss this further.

Walstib
Jan 14th 2009, 10:11 PM
I hope we can turn this thread around to one showing love and honor for each other.

I know we are all passionate and that is a good thing, lets see if we can use that passion for edifying each other and anyone who may be reading this and not participating.

Peace, please,
Joe

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 12:22 AM
Not saving faith. You are equating a measure of faith, which is given to all people, with the faith that is required to believe in Christ in order to not perish and receive everlasting life. Where is the scriptural support for that idea?

We are saved by Grace (through faith) not by faith.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 01:02 AM
Not saving faith. You are equating a measure of faith, which is given to all people, with the faith that is required to believe in Christ in order to not perish and receive everlasting life. Where is the scriptural support for that idea?

Paul said each one of you (those in the body of Christ) have been given a measure of faith. Where is the Scriptural support for everyone having a measure of faith given by God?


To those who repent and believe in Christ


Yes, and to believe is granted by God and to repent is given by God. Look at what the Scripture says instead of what you want it to say.

God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth

For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,


No, it isn't. He requires man to choose to believe. There is no other explanation for why people are condemned for not believing in Christ (John 3:18). It would not make sense for people to be condemned for not believing if they didn't even have the ability to believe.


As I said, you are entitled to your opinion, even when it disagrees with Scripture. Scripture states that to believe in Christ is granted by God. I can't help it doesn't make sense to you. God is God and will do as He does.


Only after rejecting Him first. See Romans 1, for example.

And they were destined to reject Him.

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.


Those who believe are given to Him

Amen.


Why are you so arrogant and immature? Maybe one day you will grow up. Get back to me when you do and we can discuss this further.


I'm rubber, you are glue....

I will not resort to insults.

BroRog
Jan 15th 2009, 03:11 AM
Where did I say that? Try reading my post again and then show me where I ever said that. I guess you don't want to respond specifically to anything I actually did say?

I did respond John. Jesus says that no one can come to the father unless he draws him. I agree with Jesus. You came up with another verse, which you believe proves Jesus is wrong. That's fine. You apparently think Jesus is wrong and you wanted to prove it.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 03:16 AM
I did respond John. Jesus says that no one can come to the father unless he draws him. I agree with Jesus. You came up with another verse, which you believe proves Jesus is wrong. That's fine. You apparently think Jesus is wrong and you wanted to prove it.


i think the same greek word for draw there is actually the same one used when Paul or Peter is "dragged" out of the city or something but i could be wrong so relax if i am

BroRog
Jan 15th 2009, 03:19 AM
i think the same greek word for draw there is actually the same one used when Paul or Peter is "dragged" out of the city or something but i could be wrong so relax if i am

Yes, its the same word.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 03:19 AM
I did respond John. Jesus says that no one can come to the father unless he draws him. I agree with Jesus. You came up with another verse, which you believe proves Jesus is wrong. That's fine. You apparently think Jesus is wrong and you wanted to prove it.

You can't say that. That's arrogant and immature. Just because you are right doesn't mean you can say that. :rofl:

BroRog
Jan 15th 2009, 03:26 AM
You can't say that. That's arrogant and immature. Just because you are right doesn't mean you can say that. :rofl:

Did it really come across as arrogant? I apologize for that was not my intent.

Sirus
Jan 15th 2009, 04:02 AM
I did respond John. Jesus says that no one can come to the father unless he draws him. I agree with Jesus. You came up with another verse, which you believe proves Jesus is wrong. That's fine. You apparently think Jesus is wrong and you wanted to prove it.HOW.....
does the Father draw?
If you do not use the context, your opinion is meaningless!!!!
Now, how does the Father draw?

John146
Jan 15th 2009, 05:40 PM
We are saved by Grace (through faith) not by faith.We are saved by God's grace through our faith (whosoever believes) in Jesus Christ.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 05:45 PM
We are saved by God's grace through our faith (whosoever believes) in Jesus Christ.
...and this is not of yourselves, lest any man should boast.

John146
Jan 15th 2009, 05:47 PM
I did respond John.Not specifically to any of my points or passages that I brought up.


Jesus says that no one can come to the father unless he draws him. I agree with Jesus.So do I. I believe the Father draws those who believe in Jesus.


You came up with another verse, which you believe proves Jesus is wrong.Which I believe proves Jesus is wrong? What is with the immature insults? Do you think they accomplish something?


That's fine. You apparently think Jesus is wrong and you wanted to prove it.Again with the insults. Yes, you must be right. Clearly, I must think Jesus is wrong. Why else would I be here discussing scripture on a Christian forum unless I thought Jesus was wrong? :rolleyes:

John146
Jan 15th 2009, 05:50 PM
...and this is not of yourselves, lest any man should boast.Not of our own works. But it is of faith. It says "whosoever believes in Him", not "whosoever is given faith in Him".

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 06:05 PM
BroRog, if you disagree with John146, you are immature and arrogant. Have you not figured that out yet?


It says "whosoever believes in Him", not "whosoever is given faith in Him".

For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

It was granted by God to those who are born again to believe.
It was granted by God to those who are born again to suffer.

VerticalReality
Jan 15th 2009, 06:12 PM
I'm closing this thread pending moderator review because quite frankly the majority of this thing has been quite snotty and I don't see much of Jesus in any of it . . .