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CjSoReLFoReaL
Jan 12th 2009, 04:23 PM
You know what i dont understand is how can God know the future on creatures such as humans that have free wills?

Like im so random i dont even know what im going to do before i make a choice or make that decision..and depending on that choice there will be different outcomes and you will be faced with a whole new set of afflictions or decision making based on the past choice...Its like a never ending flowchart...

Is Our lifes maped out by God? Or is it because he knows the outcome of every situation and thats how he knows...but then again how does he know the situation that will come to be..i dont know it boggles my mind...

Hit me with some scripture as well...thanks ;)

alethos
Jan 12th 2009, 04:28 PM
You know what i dont understand is how can God know the future on creatures such as humans that have free wills?

Like im so random i dont even know what im going to do before i make a choice or make that decision..and depending on that choice there will be different outcomes and you will be faced with a whole new set of afflictions or decision making based on the past choice...Its like a never ending flowchart...

Is Our lifes maped out by God? Or is it because he knows the outcome of every situation and thats how he knows...but then again how does he know the situation that will come to be..i dont know it boggles my mind...

Hit me with some scripture as well...thanks ;)

God knows everything past, present and future. He is omniscient.

Here is a Scripture to get you started.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done

VerticalReality
Jan 12th 2009, 04:36 PM
Our Father ordained that His Son would come and die on a cross for the sins of man before the earth was even created. Therefore, it is true that God knows beforehand all that will happen. Nothing takes Him by surprise. He knew that mankind would fall, and He prepared a means of salvation for us.

Revelation 13:7-8
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 12th 2009, 05:02 PM
Our Father ordained that His Son would come and die on a cross for the sins of man before the earth was even created. Therefore, it is true that God knows beforehand all that will happen. Nothing takes Him by surprise. He knew that mankind would fall, and He prepared a means of salvation for us.

Revelation 13:7-8
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Spot on and excellent post... He is the Alpha and Omega.. the beginning and end.. and NOTHING takes Him by suprise.

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 06:32 PM
You know what i dont understand is how can God know the future on creatures such as humans that have free wills?

Like im so random i dont even know what im going to do before i make a choice or make that decision..and depending on that choice there will be different outcomes and you will be faced with a whole new set of afflictions or decision making based on the past choice...Its like a never ending flowchart...

Is Our lifes maped out by God? Or is it because he knows the outcome of every situation and thats how he knows...but then again how does he know the situation that will come to be..i dont know it boggles my mind...

Hit me with some scripture as well...thanks ;)

no Scripture but i know God is eternal. He has no beginning or end. He created time for us. He is not bound by time however. His existence is outside of time. Time exists because God made it.

Mind boggiling if you try to understand it all:eek: lol

Benaiah
Jan 12th 2009, 06:49 PM
Perhaps science can help explaining it.

Einstein said that the separation of past,present, and future is merely an illusion. All three co exist simultaneously.

As finite beings we experience time strictly in a linear fashion, as the creator, God is not subject to such limitations.

Veretax
Jan 12th 2009, 06:54 PM
You know what i dont understand is how can God know the future on creatures such as humans that have free wills?

Like im so random i dont even know what im going to do before i make a choice or make that decision..and depending on that choice there will be different outcomes and you will be faced with a whole new set of afflictions or decision making based on the past choice...Its like a never ending flowchart...

Is Our lifes maped out by God? Or is it because he knows the outcome of every situation and thats how he knows...but then again how does he know the situation that will come to be..i dont know it boggles my mind...

Hit me with some scripture as well...thanks ;)

I have always understood it as if Time does not exist for God, therefore he is out side of time and thus can see the beginning and the end.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 12th 2009, 06:59 PM
I have always understood it as if Time does not exist for God, therefore he is out side of time and thus can see the beginning and the end.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent point and post! I often wonder in the end after He has put all enemies under His feet.. even death itself and there is no more death...
will 'time' even exist? what is the benefit of it? if there is no more death... interesting thoughts.. my thoughts are the latter..
that after He has put all enemies under His feet.. even death iteself.. that time will be done away with.. Eternity...

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 07:00 PM
Perhaps science can help explaining it.

Einstein said that the separation of past,present, and future is merely an illusion. All three co exist simultaneously.

As finite beings we experience time strictly in a linear fashion, as the creator, God is not subject to such limitations.

im down with Einstein on this one lol:cool:

fontz
Jan 12th 2009, 07:10 PM
You know what i dont understand is how can God know the future on creatures such as humans that have free wills?

Like im so random i dont even know what im going to do before i make a choice or make that decision..and depending on that choice there will be different outcomes and you will be faced with a whole new set of afflictions or decision making based on the past choice...Its like a never ending flowchart...

Is Our lifes maped out by God? Or is it because he knows the outcome of every situation and thats how he knows...but then again how does he know the situation that will come to be..i dont know it boggles my mind...

Hit me with some scripture as well...thanks ;)

Here are some things that come to mind

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you
Before you were born I sanctified you; ( Jeremiah 1:4 *NKJV )

then we have the words of king David:
You have searched me and known
me. You know my sitting down and
my rising up; You understand my
thought afar off. ( Psalms 139:1-2 )

My frame was not hidden from
you when I was made in the secret
place your eyes saw my unformed
body. All the days ordained for me
were written in your book before
one of them came to be.
( Psalms 139:15 & 16 )

even though we flip flop on many things (decisions etc) God already knows the choices we ultimately will make as he already knew our days before we ever were born...hope i make sense sometimes i can't seem to type what my brain is trying to say :rolleyes:

CjSoReLFoReaL
Jan 12th 2009, 07:16 PM
Perhaps science can help explaining it.

Einstein said that the separation of past,present, and future is merely an illusion. All three co exist simultaneously.

As finite beings we experience time strictly in a linear fashion, as the creator, God is not subject to such limitations.

MMm So God not limited to time may already be with us in heaven?

and as far as past/present and future may go

the stuff in the past well has already been!! and the present already is and the future may already be?

reformedct
Jan 12th 2009, 07:43 PM
MMm So God not limited to time may already be with us in heaven?

and as far as past/present and future may go

the stuff in the past well has already been!! and the present already is and the future may already be?


Yeah it sounds crazy but from God perspective, yes. lol Thats why the Bible says we are already seated in heavenly places. thats why the lamb was slain before the foundations of the world. Jesus was slain before the world was even made in Gods eyes.

Ok i gotta stop before my brain pops lol

Benaiah
Jan 12th 2009, 07:57 PM
MMm So God not limited to time may already be with us in heaven?

and as far as past/present and future may go

the stuff in the past well has already been!! and the present already is and the future may already be?

God created Time, time is a function of this created universe, God is not subject to His creation.

I think Einstein would have phrased it, the past is, the present is, and the future is.

consider this, if tomorrow did not already exist, how would we get there?

superwoman8977
Jan 12th 2009, 07:58 PM
Okay for years I have tried to understand that God knows all etc but I just dont get it. Why has my life been a living hell for the last 3 years. Does He take pleasure in sitting up there saying "What can we throw at her now?" In 3 years I have lost my family, marriage, home, money stability, security and been left with nothing and had to start all over and with everything I have been through it leaves me wondering ...why? Is there a point to all of this, besides hurt and heartache and to run away from the cross which I did when my husband came in after 7 years of marriage and told me he loved someone else and turned around and walked out on me and the kids? This all frustrates me to no end. Even when i was married to my husband I went through forclosure and reposession and cancer and a child dying. You can only go through so much when you are like enough is enough.

It really makes me question alot of things.

alethos
Jan 12th 2009, 08:09 PM
Okay for years I have tried to understand that God knows all etc but I just dont get it. Why has my life been a living hell for the last 3 years. Does He take pleasure in sitting up there saying "What can we throw at her now?" In 3 years I have lost my family, marriage, home, money stability, security and been left with nothing and had to start all over and with everything I have been through it leaves me wondering ...why? Is there a point to all of this, besides hurt and heartache and to run away from the cross which I did when my husband came in after 7 years of marriage and told me he loved someone else and turned around and walked out on me and the kids? This all frustrates me to no end. Even when i was married to my husband I went through forclosure and reposession and cancer and a child dying. You can only go through so much when you are like enough is enough.

It really makes me question alot of things.

Ask yourself this question......

What was the posture of Job when everything was taken away from him?

Here is what Job said
Job 1:21 and he said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: Jehovah gave, and Jehovah hath taken away; blessed be the name of Jehovah.

And if you read the entire book of Job you will see that Job was blessed in the end with more than he began with. I think you would be blessed to read the entire book of Job.

fontz
Jan 12th 2009, 08:10 PM
Okay for years I have tried to understand that God knows all etc but I just dont get it. Why has my life been a living hell for the last 3 years. Does He take pleasure in sitting up there saying "What can we throw at her now?" In 3 years I have lost my family, marriage, home, money stability, security and been left with nothing and had to start all over and with everything I have been through it leaves me wondering ...why? Is there a point to all of this, besides hurt and heartache and to run away from the cross which I did when my husband came in after 7 years of marriage and told me he loved someone else and turned around and walked out on me and the kids? This all frustrates me to no end. Even when i was married to my husband I went through forclosure and reposession and cancer and a child dying. You can only go through so much when you are like enough is enough.

It really makes me question alot of things.


I'm praying for you my sister..:hug:

superwoman8977
Jan 12th 2009, 08:58 PM
Ask yourself this question......

What was the posture of Job when everything was taken away from him?

Here is what Job said
Job 1:21 and he said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: Jehovah gave, and Jehovah hath taken away; blessed be the name of Jehovah.

And if you read the entire book of Job you will see that Job was blessed in the end with more than he began with. I think you would be blessed to read the entire book of Job.

Thank you I have read the book of Job. More than once going through this nightmare I call my life. It just frustrates me when I see all these people with families and everything and I am working 50 hrs a week to support my family, and I do this fighting cancer and extremely tired come home at night and cook dinner and keep everything up and be there 250% for my kids. Sometimes I ask if there is more to this life. And yes at night after the kids go to bed and I have a load of dishes in the dishwasher and a load of clothes that need to be folded and put away and still have to get up at 5am and get ready for work and get the kids ready for school exhausted I get very frustrated because I am so tired and there doesnt seem to be a rainbow in sight or anything good to happen but more bad luck.

alethos
Jan 12th 2009, 11:31 PM
Thank you I have read the book of Job. More than once going through this nightmare I call my life. It just frustrates me when I see all these people with families and everything and I am working 50 hrs a week to support my family, and I do this fighting cancer and extremely tired come home at night and cook dinner and keep everything up and be there 250% for my kids. Sometimes I ask if there is more to this life. And yes at night after the kids go to bed and I have a load of dishes in the dishwasher and a load of clothes that need to be folded and put away and still have to get up at 5am and get ready for work and get the kids ready for school exhausted I get very frustrated because I am so tired and there doesnt seem to be a rainbow in sight or anything good to happen but more bad luck.

"I believe if you trust God through the storms of life, and if you'll get in the habit of speaking faith-filled words, you're going to see negative situations turn around." When that happens God will turn your tests into testimonies to the praise and glory of His name."

I've seen it happen in my own life awhile back when i was battling cancer. I kept prasing God for giving me the opportunity to trust Him more. In those days God became very close and very personal to me. I know He wants to do the same for you if you allow Him to.

Romber
Jan 12th 2009, 11:48 PM
He knew that mankind would fall, and He prepared a means of salvation for us.

Since Jesus is the only way to salvation, it almost sounds like you are implying that God created Jesus (the prepare part) to be our salvation.

tt1106
Jan 12th 2009, 11:56 PM
Since Jesus is the only way to salvation, it almost sounds like you are implying that God created Jesus (the prepare part) to be our salvation.


he didn't create Jesus to be our Salvation, but he did come as Jesus for that purpose.

Romber
Jan 13th 2009, 12:24 AM
But how can he have "prepared" a way for our salvation? Was Jesus just there and God saw he would be perfect? Maybe prepared isn't the best word to describe it, but it begs the question as if God knew we were going to sin and need salvation, then he made a path to salvation.

VerticalReality
Jan 13th 2009, 01:34 AM
Since Jesus is the only way to salvation, it almost sounds like you are implying that God created Jesus (the prepare part) to be our salvation.

Nope . . .

Saying that God had a plan prepared.

Yukerboy
Jan 13th 2009, 01:50 AM
Not only did God have a plan prepared, He instituted it. He foreordained it. He made sin spring to life through His commandment and added the law to increase the transgression.

Romber
Jan 13th 2009, 03:00 AM
In saying God had a planned prepared, does that mean Jesus always existed as long as God, but would eventually be used as our source of salvation, or, like someone else said, he always existed, but God came down in the body of Jesus?

VerticalReality
Jan 13th 2009, 03:05 AM
In saying God had a planned prepared, does that mean Jesus always existed as long as God, but would eventually be used as our source of salvation, or, like someone else said, he always existed, but God came down in the body of Jesus?

Jesus is God. My statement had nothing to do with the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. My statement was regarding God's plan for salvation in regards to man. He had this plan ordained before the foundation of the world.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 13th 2009, 04:30 PM
God had a 'plan ' prepared... Jesus was the 'center' of that plan.. not that He was 'created' or anthing like that... and

VR is not saying Jesus was created or prepared...

Jesus is God.. He has 'always' existed... He was never created or nor did He 'never exist'..... before time even started Jesus existed.. Time , His creation, everything was created For Him, by Him and thru Him. Everything in creation to the smallest atom or molecule is 'upheld' by the Word of His Power.. and yes even today.. He is Totally Sovereign and In Control.

Jesus is God and has always Existed. At a certain time ordained by the Father Himself. He sent His Son , Jesus , who is God, to this earth and He put on flesh. God manifest int the flesh... He is the Center of God's Plan..His Redemptive Plan..... "in time".. this is why He already 'knows' the beginning to the end... Thats why He said He is the Alpha and the Omega.. He alone could only say that for He created time and what constitutes what lies within 'time'.. years, minutes, seconds milliseconds.... Its His foreknowledge of all things....

Jesus is the Center .. for He was born for one purpose and that was to die on the that bloody tree.

That is the 'plan' that was upheld and put into motion .. it never failed.. Jesus is the center of that Redemptive Plan...

when He is lifted up .. He will draw all men unto Himself...

this my friend was Calvary.. the Center of God's Redemptive Plan
with Jesus being the Lamb Slain before the Foundation of the
World.

Jesus is God.. God manifest in the flesh... Jesus is Salvation... amen and amen.....

Romber
Jan 13th 2009, 04:34 PM
God had a 'plan ' prepared... Jesus was the 'center' of that plan.. not that He was 'created' or anthing like that... and

VR is not saying Jesus was created or prepared...

Jesus is God.. He has 'always' existed... He was never created or nor did He 'never exist'..... before time even started Jesus existed.. Time , His creation, everything was created For Him, by Him and thru Him. Everything in creation to the smallest atom or molecule is 'upheld' by the Word of His Power.. and yes even today.. He is Totally Sovereign and In Control.

Jesus is God and has always Existed. At a certain time ordained by the Father Himself. He sent His Son , Jesus , who is God, to this earth and He put on flesh. God manifest int the flesh... He is the Center of God's Plan..His Redemptive Plan..... "in time".. this is why He already 'knows' the beginning to the end... Thats why He said He is the Alpha and the Omega.. He alone could only say that for He created time and what constitutes what lies within 'time'.. years, minutes, seconds milliseconds.... Its His foreknowledge of all things....

Jesus is the Center .. for He was born for one purpose and that was to die on the that bloody tree.

That is the 'plan' that was upheld and put into motion .. it never failed.. Jesus is the center of that Redemptive Plan...

when He is lifted up .. He will draw all men unto Himself...

this my friend was Calvary.. the Center of God's Redemptive Plan
with Jesus being the Lamb Slain before the Foundation of the
World.

Jesus is God.. God manifest in the flesh... Jesus is Salvation... amen and amen.....

thanks. This clarified some problems I was having.

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 04:52 PM
In saying God had a planned prepared, does that mean Jesus always existed as long as God, but would eventually be used as our source of salvation, or, like someone else said, he always existed, but God came down in the body of Jesus?

First you gotta know God is a Trinity. He is one in essence but He is Triune in existence.

The Father has existed eternally, the Son, and the Spirit, all existed eternally. They are three seperate people. They are each God. They are one. Similar to when you say you have one family. within that family are different people, mom, dad, but they are all equally part of the family. There is One God. That God exists in a family of three. Each equally God

So, God the Father did not come down. It was God the Son who agreed to lay His life down who came.

EarlyCall
Jan 13th 2009, 05:59 PM
You know what i dont understand is how can God know the future on creatures such as humans that have free wills?

Like im so random i dont even know what im going to do before i make a choice or make that decision..and depending on that choice there will be different outcomes and you will be faced with a whole new set of afflictions or decision making based on the past choice...Its like a never ending flowchart...

Is Our lifes maped out by God? Or is it because he knows the outcome of every situation and thats how he knows...but then again how does he know the situation that will come to be..i dont know it boggles my mind...

Hit me with some scripture as well...thanks ;)


I recall this discussion with someone at work years ago and he seemed intelligent but could not grasp the difference between knowing and something and causing something to be. The difference is in understanding that they are two very different things at work.

If you turn it around a bit and say that you know something and then ask how you know it, your response would be because it already happened. But did you cause it to happen? And the answer would be no if you had not, but you still know. Here then you can see the difference and the separation between the two. So it is with God that simply because He knows before it happens does not equate to His causing it to happen.

holyrokker
Jan 14th 2009, 12:38 AM
I know I'm a heretic. I've been called it many times. So -

God can only know what is true and real.

The future hasn't happened yet, so God can't "know" the future.

Yes, God knows everything that exists. He has exhaustive knowledge of everything. He can predict with amazing accuracy what will happen in any given situation.

He also has the ability to make things happen exactly as He wishes.

Here's a link to some articles on the topic.
http://revivaltheology.gharvest.com/9_openness/index.html

alethos
Jan 14th 2009, 12:16 PM
The future hasn't happened yet, so God can't "know" the future.



Do you have Scripture to support that?

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 04:56 PM
I recall this discussion with someone at work years ago and he seemed intelligent but could not grasp the difference between knowing and something and causing something to be. The difference is in understanding that they are two very different things at work.

If you turn it around a bit and say that you know something and then ask how you know it, your response would be because it already happened. But did you cause it to happen? And the answer would be no if you had not, but you still know. Here then you can see the difference and the separation between the two. So it is with God that simply because He knows before it happens does not equate to His causing it to happen.

If I know the result of something I do, and can decide not to do it, did I cause the result to happen if I chose to do it anyway?

If I know that cheating on my wife will cause her to leave, and I do it anyway, did I choose for her to leave me?

If I know man will sin, and can decide not to make man, but decided to make man anyway, then the result I could have prevented I chose not to prevent.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 14th 2009, 05:14 PM
The future hasn't happened yet, so God can't "know" the future.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I would also like to see the Scripture backing this claim up....

So things yet to come?

He has no idea of whats going to happen... ?????????

I don't buy that at all....

So according to your theory.. then God didnt know when He would send His Son to this earth.. to pay the penalty for Sin on that bloody tree................................ but He 'did'...

The OT pointed to this time and there are many prophecies that were fulfilled when Jesus came here the 1st time.. God was speaking thru His people .. penning those words of a 'time to come'... yet God did not know???????:confused:confused


Jesus prophesied that He would 'rise again' from the dead 3 days after He was crucified... Jesus is God... God manifest in the flesh...

Jesus Did Rise from the Dead just like He said... He 'knew' the future...

He 'knew' Judas would betray Him... and Judas 'did'....
He 'knew' Peter would deny Him 3 times.. Peter did.. but Jesus still loved Him and forgave him...

I have a hard time believing and understanding your statement.....
If God doesnt 'know' the future.. then He didn't use John as His Vessel to pen the book of Revelation.. which is the coming event which will Reveal Jesus the Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords.. to this planet.. Revealing Him in Power and Glory...

EarlyCall
Jan 14th 2009, 05:50 PM
If I know the result of something I do, and can decide not to do it, did I cause the result to happen if I chose to do it anyway?

If I know that cheating on my wife will cause her to leave, and I do it anyway, did I choose for her to leave me?

If I know man will sin, and can decide not to make man, but decided to make man anyway, then the result I could have prevented I chose not to prevent.

I'm confused how these questions address what I said? I have no idea if you agree, disagree or even understood what I was saying.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 06:02 PM
God, by creating Adam cause all to happen. It is not only foreknowledge, but His will.

Athanasius
Jan 14th 2009, 06:05 PM
The future hasn't happened yet, so God can't "know" the future.

Our future, to us, relative to our position in the space-time continuum - "now" -, has not happened yet. But that does not mean it has not happened. I'm disappointed because I'm always writing this [exact] reply, probably to no avail.

The difficulty you run into is this: "future" is a label which has no meaning; it is even more arbitrary than naming colours or designating numbers: colors and numbers are things that actually exist. Firstly, God is outside time; as such, our "past", our "present" and our "future", relative to us exists, but to God doesn't. For God, everything is what we would call present. Remember, time in our dimension is linear (if you argue for imaginary time it would follow a curve, but linear nonetheless). Secondly, quantum mechanics has discovered this interesting thing; time as we've come to define and believe it may just in fact be illusory; everything happens now. Don't confuse that with Buddhism, a lot of people have and will.

EarlyCall
Jan 14th 2009, 06:26 PM
God, by creating Adam cause all to happen. It is not only foreknowledge, but His will.

I'll assume then that God made you make this post and the inaccuracy of it is therefore not your fault.

Why you insist on blaming God for man's sins is beyond me, but I personally will not say such a thing about God who is a Holy God. Beyond my level of comfort.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 06:34 PM
I'll assume then that God made you make this post and the inaccuracy of it is therefore not your fault.

Why you insist on blaming God for man's sins is beyond me, but I personally will not say such a thing about God who is a Holy God. Beyond my level of comfort.

Whoa, God still holds us accountable for the sins. God still blames man.

As Paul said, some of you will say "Why does God blame us, for who can resist His will."

The answer is as basic as it gets. Because He's God! He will do as He will.

But make no mistake, nothing happens outside of His will....including sin.

BrckBrln
Jan 14th 2009, 06:43 PM
I know I'm a heretic. I've been called it many times. So -

God can only know what is true and real.

The future hasn't happened yet, so God can't "know" the future.

Yes, God knows everything that exists. He has exhaustive knowledge of everything. He can predict with amazing accuracy what will happen in any given situation.

He also has the ability to make things happen exactly as He wishes.

Here's a link to some articles on the topic.
http://revivaltheology.gharvest.com/9_openness/index.html

And you have just put the Creator on the same level as the creature. Please, if you haven't already, check out some critiques of Open Theism.

EarlyCall
Jan 14th 2009, 11:50 PM
Whoa, God still holds us accountable for the sins. God still blames man.

As Paul said, some of you will say "Why does God blame us, for who can resist His will."

The answer is as basic as it gets. Because He's God! He will do as He will.

But make no mistake, nothing happens outside of His will....including sin.

But you take what Paul has said much too far. Christ paid too great a price because of sin and God, being a holy god hates sin with a passion. His will never was nor ever will be that sin ever is.

Sin is something God allowed because He gave His creation free will. But sin is never God's will. God's permissive will has allowed it as I explained but God's determined will has conquered sin, death and satan.

You seem to cling to God's words without the author. You cannot pin sin on God in any manner for He is a holy God. I think you do not understand God and His holiness well enough yet.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 11:54 PM
I know I'm a heretic. I've been called it many times. So -

God can only know what is true and real.

The future hasn't happened yet, so God can't "know" the future.

Yes, God knows everything that exists. He has exhaustive knowledge of everything. He can predict with amazing accuracy what will happen in any given situation.

He also has the ability to make things happen exactly as He wishes.

Here's a link to some articles on the topic.
http://revivaltheology.gharvest.com/9_openness/index.html


if God cant know the future then how can he call Himself the Alpha and Omega? The Begginning and end? if He doesnt know the future how can He see that He is the Omega? wouldnt it be an assumption? How can He know about Revelations?

holyrokker
Jan 15th 2009, 12:11 AM
And you have just put the Creator on the same level as the creature. Please, if you haven't already, check out some critiques of Open Theism.
I have NOT put the Creator on the same level as the creature. Please, if you haven't already, check out the real claims of "open theism" with an open mind. Be willing to put your theological bias aside.

A good place to start is an article titled: God’s Foreknowledge, Predestination,
and Human Freedom http://www.cresourcei.org/freedom.html

BrckBrln
Jan 15th 2009, 12:15 AM
Be willing to put your theological bias aside.

Saying God is all knowing is not a theological bias, it's a Christian bias.

holyrokker
Jan 15th 2009, 12:17 AM
Saying God is all knowing is not a theological bias, it's a Christian bias.
God's omniscience is not in question. It's the definition of omniscience that poses the problem.

BrckBrln
Jan 15th 2009, 12:19 AM
God's omniscience is not in question. It's the definition of omniscience that poses the problem.

I think the definition you really need to look into is not 'omniscience' but 'God'.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 12:28 AM
But you take what Paul has said much too far. Christ paid too great a price because of sin and God, being a holy god hates sin with a passion. His will never was nor ever will be that sin ever is.

Sin is something God allowed because He gave His creation free will. But sin is never God's will. God's permissive will has allowed it as I explained but God's determined will has conquered sin, death and satan.

You seem to cling to God's words without the author. You cannot pin sin on God in any manner for He is a holy God. I think you do not understand God and His holiness well enough yet.


You are entitled to believe that "His will never was nor ever will be that sin ever is.".

Myself? I will go with Paul said. The reason that God created the law was so that sin would increase. Obviously, that was His will...or Paul could be mistaken.

EarlyCall
Jan 15th 2009, 05:35 PM
You are entitled to believe that "His will never was nor ever will be that sin ever is.".

Myself? I will go with Paul said. The reason that God created the law was so that sin would increase. Obviously, that was His will...or Paul could be mistaken.

Yea, I've read it, but tell me what you think that means? What does that mean to you "that sin would increase" because "God created the law"?

Give me an example of increase in sin as a result of the law.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 05:48 PM
Yea, I've read it, but tell me what you think that means? What does that mean to you "that sin would increase" because "God created the law"?

Give me an example of increase in sin as a result of the law.

God willed that transgressions would happen so that mercy could happen. Without sin, there is no mercy.

If, as John said, sin is transgression of the law, then it stands to reason that I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

God made the commands to be broken. He willed that all would sin and come short so that He could have mercy. To do that, He created a law that He knew no one would follow.

VerticalReality
Jan 15th 2009, 06:05 PM
Just a reminder folks to temper your comments and keep things Christ-like. If you feel like you are getting heated or agitated take a step back and think about what you're stating before hitting the submit button.

Ixthus
Jan 15th 2009, 06:22 PM
The Lord is Omnipresent and Omniscient. He can be everywhere at anytime.

EarlyCall
Jan 15th 2009, 11:55 PM
God willed that transgressions would happen so that mercy could happen. Without sin, there is no mercy.

If, as John said, sin is transgression of the law, then it stands to reason that I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

God made the commands to be broken. He willed that all would sin and come short so that He could have mercy. To do that, He created a law that He knew no one would follow.

Wow. You really have things backwards. Man was always guilty of sin but God gave the law by which man could not be without excuse for the law was there to condemn man.

What does God desire from us? Sin? Holiness? Which is it?

Is God playing games with us? He starts out by creating Adam and Eve wihout sin in them. Guilty of nothing. He tells them what they can do and what not to do.

later God destroys almost every living thing because of sin.

Later still God gives Moses commandments to live by.

later still god sends his Son to die for us because of our sin.

We are told to be holy. We are told to stop sinning.

All such things in God's word are contrary to the argument you make. And yet you continue to claim God desired sin in the world and willed it to be so. But His word never says any such thing and does say plenty to the contrary.

God is a Holy God. I'm going to leave it at this because I am not comfortable even discussing such a thing as this. God is a Holy God. God hates sin beyond anything we can even begin to understand.

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 01:01 AM
Wow. You really have things backwards. Man was always guilty of sin but God gave the law by which man could not be without excuse for the law was there to condemn man.

What does God desire from us? Sin? Holiness? Which is it?


The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, (Romans 5:20)

It was faith that saved those in the Old Testament, not the law. The law was in place so that they would break the commands.

Romans 4:15 goes on to say where there is no law there is no transgression.

What is sin? Transgression of the law. God, to have mercy on man, needed for man to break the law and thus sin. God knew what would happen. God has bound all men over to disobedience (Romans 11:32)




Is God playing games with us? He starts out by creating Adam and Eve wihout sin in them. Guilty of nothing. He tells them what they can do and what not to do.


Yes and Romans 7:9 tells us Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Sin sprang to life when they were commanded not to eat of that tree. Consequently, they died.


later God destroys almost every living thing because of sin.

It was because the hearts of man was wicked...still is.


Later still God gives Moses commandments to live by.

Knowing that no man could do so and the result was as God wanted. Increase the transgressions.


later still god sends his Son to die for us because of our sin.

Which is why God gave the law. How could there be redemption with no sin? The reason God bound all men over to disobedience was to have mercy.


We are told to be holy. We are told to stop sinning.

We are told to be holy. We are told we cannot sin.


All such things in God's word are contrary to the argument you make. And yet you continue to claim God desired sin in the world and willed it to be so. But His word never says any such thing and does say plenty to the contrary.

All things in God's word confirms what I claim. Quote Scripture to prove your point.


God is a Holy God. I'm going to leave it at this because I am not comfortable even discussing such a thing as this. God is a Holy God. God hates sin beyond anything we can even begin to understand.

Yes He is and yes He does.