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Scubadude
Jan 13th 2009, 04:07 AM
Luke 2:52 Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men

For some reason, this verse has been sticking in my craw lately. Why would Jesus need to grow in anything? He was fully God, right? I'm having a hard time justifying this. Love to hear your thoughts.

Sirus
Jan 13th 2009, 04:26 AM
Well, he was also fully man right? The one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus? The Son of man?....taking on the seed of Abraham? Let me add to the complexity of the subject.....

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

If he wasn't fully man he would not have qualified as Savior.

TrustingFollower
Jan 13th 2009, 04:28 AM
While Jesus was and is fully God, he did not use his divine nature while he was here as a man. He relied on God the father for all just like you and I have to. Jesus had the Holy Spirit that you and I have and was in communion with God the Father while here. Just like you and I can be in full communion with the father. Jesus was and is the full demonstration of everything that is available to each and everyone of us that believe in him as our Lord and savior. Jesus had to grow in favor with God the father the same way you and I have to grow in favor, which is to mature into the fullness of our faith.

Julian
Jan 13th 2009, 06:01 AM
Luke 2:52 Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men

For some reason, this verse has been sticking in my craw lately. Why would Jesus need to grow in anything? He was fully God, right? I'm having a hard time justifying this. Love to hear your thoughts.
Short answer: It is speaking about Jesus Christ, the man - as it does in so many places in the scripture, especially the gospels.

-------------------------------
Excellent question, by the way, and one that more people, in my experience, should be considering - especially in light of Jesus being our example.


More of my thoughts and some scripture mixed in (even if not referenced each time, which I'd be happy to supply if needed):

One can piece together from the scriptures that this time-frame being spoke about is before Jesus Christ was baptized and had the holy spirit upon him. It is prior to his earthly ministry beginning - basically from the time of him twelve years old until then (about 30).

Right beforehand the scriptures speak about him being in the temple and hearing/questioning the doctors about the scriptures and them being amazed at his learning & understanding.

Of course he would be seen as growing in wisdom and maturity and favor/grace with God - for he was about his Father's (God) business and just getting started at the age of 12. He went from a young man to going about his Father's business and eventually was ready to start his earthly ministry around 30 years of age.

I was raised being taught from an early age that he was fully God, even as you mentioned here - but it wasn't until I matured that I came to appreciate the 'fully man' that he is and how we have no better example in this life than he to strive to live like. (Not that anyone should attempt to be the savior, but rather to walk like he did with God was try to live without sinning and to obey all that God asks us to do.) Without him being fully man, the last Adam, we wouldn't be saved - because it was this 'fully man' Jesus that died on the cross.

Likewise we can be seen to grow in favor, wisdom and maturity as we gain understanding of the scriptures in our walk with God - and seek to be about our Father's business - the business of walking in fellowship with God and with his Son Jesus Christ, about spreading the gospel and helping others become saved! What a wonderful example our Lord Jesus Christ is for us, even from the first account of him speaking at the age of 12 and growing in grace/wisdom/maturity - not only with man but with his God.

Some days I marvel at the abundance in the scriptures that has been provided for us to take as an example from Christ's life - and this section exemplifies even his maturity as a man with his God. Truly he was made in all points like unto his brethren - and now we can endeavor to walk our lives in all points like unto his walk.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren...

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Joe King
Jan 13th 2009, 06:22 AM
Great explanations in this thread. Thank you. I needed to read them as well.

Julian
Jan 13th 2009, 07:11 AM
Great explanations in this thread. Thank you. I needed to read them as well.
You are very welcome - I'm glad Hawaii is getting blessed :D.

Joe King
Jan 13th 2009, 01:21 PM
You are very welcome - I'm glad Hawaii is getting blessed :D.

It sure is a constant reminder of God, I'll tell you that. Last night I went out to eat in Waikiki and just pointed my phone and took a few pics of the sunset. I have been in my house like a hermit and I can't believe that I'm only a few feet away from this every single day. I am truly blessed. How anyone can think that this is all a cosmic accident is beyond me. I tried ways to think of what colors could make it more nice but there are none. The LORD is truly all powerful and wise and of course loving. I don't deserve to see this beauty every day.

Julian
Jan 13th 2009, 02:23 PM
It sure is a constant reminder of God, I'll tell you that. Last night I went out to eat in Waikiki and just pointed my phone and took a few pics of the sunset. I have been in my house like a hermit and I can't believe that I'm only a few feet away from this every single day. I am truly blessed. How anyone can think that this is all a cosmic accident is beyond me. I tried ways to think of what colors could make it more nice but there are none. The LORD is truly all powerful and wise and of course loving. I don't deserve to see this beauty every day.
I especially meant 'blessing YOU', but you are right - the rest is a good reminder as well.

Enjoy your day endeavoring to walk in fellowship with God - and may Christ's example be reminder often of how we too should walk with him. We have been given an abundance of grace through our Lord Jesus Christ and ought to enjoy our lives to the fullest in that fellowship - looking forward to the day Christ returns to gather us together in the air - forever to be with the Lord!

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 13th 2009, 03:57 PM
Well, he was also fully man right? The one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus? The Son of man?....taking on the seed of Abraham? Let me add to the complexity of the subject.....

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

If he wasn't fully man he would not have qualified as Savior.

Good post...

For He took on Himself.. not the 'nature' of angels.. but the Seed of Abraham... God put on Flesh... Fully God and Fully Man... He had no sin and 'knew' no sin...

'the Fullness of Godhead , dwelt in Him bodily'

for then as His children are partakers of flesh and blood.. it behooved Him to do the same.. to be made like unto His brethern.....so that thru His Physical death in the flesh He may destory the works of the devil.. and He did.. 3 days later 'rising' again from the dead.. to put an exclamation mark to His victory over the grave hell and death itself..

Jesus Grew from a baby to a full grown man... He was a child, a young adololecent, to a young adult to a grown man. Fully God in the flesh...
He was 'born' for the one reason to be 'slain'.. the Perfect Sacrafice.. the Lamb slain before the Foundation of the world..

It behoved Him to be made like unto His brethern.. so..

He could be a Merciful and faithful High Priest unto His children in the things pertaiining to God.. ... to make Reconcilliation for the sins of the people and to succour those who are being tempted as He was tempted and suffered.

VerticalReality
Jan 13th 2009, 04:17 PM
It would have been rather odd to see a newborn baby being born into this world speaking full sentences while using unparalleled grammar and structure.

Of course He had to grow in wisdom and knowledge. He was just like every other living, breathing human. He had to learn how to talk, walk, eat, read, etc . . .

I can just picture a 4 month old baby sitting around the fire calmly articulating the mystery of the Scriptures to His family . . . :rofl:

reformedct
Jan 13th 2009, 06:00 PM
Its a great mystery but i guess it all boils down to the same thing

Fully God and Fully Man lol

Ethnikos
Jan 13th 2009, 09:10 PM
The Baptist said, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."
Jesus received the spirit upon baptism but not so much in the way of obtaining the spirit but to obtain recognition that the Spirit could coexist with Jesus because he was perfect.
Jesus was a fully developed entity before his birth but that was suppressed as far as his divinity being an outwardly obvious thing. What was observable was the human aspect of Jesus that was in need of development, just as all of our own natures have to be. Jesus had advantages other than being God, he was also born without sin. His human personality was able to keep pace with his maturing into more responsibilities and the more acute potential of repercussions from his actions.
Jesus, because of a knowledge that was available to him of the divine plan, had to set higher standards for himself than ordinary people would need. His divinity and his sinlessness combined to develop a perfection of his person as a man, and it is upon that which was pinned the hopes of the men and women who have, and do, and will love God, throughout the ages of this world.
We can look to Jesus and aspire to be like him but he is unique. Our own natures will be long term projects that will have to be continued on into the next world. For us to get to that place, we will need to be in Christ as the Son is in the Father so as our own imperfection will be hidden within his perfection.

Scubadude
Jan 14th 2009, 03:52 AM
Well, he was also fully man right? The one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus? The Son of man?....taking on the seed of Abraham? Let me add to the complexity of the subject.....

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

If he wasn't fully man he would not have qualified as Savior.

Thank you all for your answers. Work has taken a big Turn and I'm swamped. But.....

I am very intrigued by the reference to "Before" he knows to refuse evil and choose good. Maybe you can see where I am going with this. I hear the expression "sinless" in church and in scripture regarding the Lord. How can we recognize His sinlessness AND acknowledge that he needed to learn what sinlessness looked like?

I'm not suggesting that somehow we need to find a nice way to combine the two. I don't see how you could.

Wish me luck, and thank you for your insights.

Kevin

Sirus
Jan 14th 2009, 04:21 AM
I am very intrigued by the reference to "Before" he knows to refuse evil and choose good. Maybe you can see where I am going with this. I hear the expression "sinless" in church and in scripture regarding the Lord. How can we recognize His sinlessness AND acknowledge that he needed to learn what sinlessness looked like?I could say a lot. People would pull scripture out of context and literary device and say I am wrong. In short, if he truly came as one of us, and I believe he did (except he had an unveiled relationship with the Father that we do not have from birth), then we have to apply God's measuring stick for what is sin and when. Am I implying an age of accountability? I don't need to. Scripture did it already. ;)

Scubadude
Jan 14th 2009, 05:00 AM
I could say a lot. People would pull scripture out of context and literary device and say I am wrong. In short, if he truly came as one of us, and I believe he did (except he had an unveiled relationship with the Father that we do not have from birth), then we have to apply God's measuring stick for what is sin and when. Am I implying an age of accountability? I don't need to. Scripture did it already. ;)

I'm writing at the risk of getting in trouble. Verses like 'stolen fruit' tasting good are coming to mind

I've wondered why Jesus' childhood years are silent in scripture. I like the 'age of accountability' idea. Though most children seem to have a very subjective age at when that will be. I don't see that specifically mentioned, though. Is it possible that sin and sinlessness is something different, something that we might find confusing if we were to hear about Jesus' childhood years. I'm just thinking the Bible's silence (mostly) about His childhood is God's grace.

Scubadude
Jan 14th 2009, 05:46 AM
It would have been rather odd to see a newborn baby being born into this world speaking full sentences while using unparalleled grammar and structure.



:lol:


And very unnerving.

Joe King
Jan 14th 2009, 05:53 AM
I'm writing at the risk of getting in trouble. Verses like 'stolen fruit' tasting good are coming to mind

I've wondered why Jesus' childhood years are silent in scripture. I like the 'age of accountability' idea. Though most children seem to have a very subjective age at when that will be. I don't see that specifically mentioned, though. Is it possible that sin and sinlessness is something different, something that we might find confusing if we were to hear about Jesus' childhood years. I'm just thinking the Bible's silence (mostly) about His childhood is God's grace.

The instance of his childhood that I remember was when Joseph and Mary were looking for him for a few days and then they found him in the temple.

Luke 2:49 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&verse=49&version=31&context=verse)
"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?"


That verse means a lot more than what it says. It applies to all of use!

Scubadude
Jan 14th 2009, 04:01 PM
Of course he would be seen as growing in wisdom and maturity and favor/grace with God - for he was about his Father's (God) business and just getting started at the age of 12. He went from a young man to going about his Father's business and eventually was ready to start his earthly ministry around 30 years of age.



I could be misunderstanding. I don't think the passage suggests that Jesus had the appearance of growing in favor with God. The passage is begging the question. I think it is similar to the statement, "But for Adam, no suitable helper was found." Was he looking for one?

Ethnikos
Jan 14th 2009, 05:22 PM
The instance of his childhood that I remember was when Joseph and Mary were looking for him for a few days and then they found him in the temple.
Luke 2:49 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&verse=49&version=31&context=verse) "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?"
That verse means a lot more than what it says. It applies to all of us!This is interesting that you say this. It kind of goes along with something I said in my post. Jesus was the Son of God and he had the power to make those who believed in him sons of God.
Back in the 1770's A. M. Toplady wrote concerning Romans 5:13-14 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.:

Infants are here designated by the apostle: who have not sinned actually and in their own persons as Adam did, and yet are liable to temporal death. Wherefore, then, do they die? Is not death the wages of sin? Most certainly. And seeing it is incontestibly [sic] clear that not any individual among the numberless millions who have died in infancy was capable of committing actual sin; it follows that they sinned representatively and implicitly in Adam. Else they would not be entitled to that death which is the wages of sin, and to those diseases by which their death is occasioned, and to that pain which most of them experience in dying. …This is the doctrine of the Church of England….Original sin is the fault and corruption of the nature of every man.I would have to disagree with Toplady in that there is an exception to this rule and that is that Jesus did not have a corrupt nature because his father was God and not Adam. We on the other hand are born of Adam and are sinful representatively through Adam. Jesus becomes our second Adam and through faith in him have a better standing before God. In order for this to be effective Jesus had to overcome the failings of Adam and that was through the process of the development of his human nature, as weak as it was, to be trusting in that Spirit that was ever with him through life and to trust still in it when he was apparently shut off from it as he was put on the cross.

Julian
Jan 14th 2009, 07:25 PM
I could be misunderstanding. I don't think the passage suggests that Jesus had the appearance of growing in favor with God. The passage is begging the question. I think it is similar to the statement, "But for Adam, no suitable helper was found." Was he looking for one?
It doesn't say he had the appearance, it says he actually did those things.

I hope the other parts of my post were helpful on the topic of your first question.


Have you also read verse 40 of Luke 2 where it speaks of him growing, waxing strong in 'spirit', filled with wisdom and the grace of God being upon him?

This whole section deals with Jesus Christ, the man - and it shows how he grew, increased in maturity and grace with God. What a good example for us to strive for - and to raise our children so that they, too, might increase in wisdom, maturity and favor with God and men.

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 08:05 PM
It doesn't say he had the appearance, it says he actually did those things.

I hope the other parts of my post were helpful on the topic of your first question.


Have you also read verse 40 of Luke 2 where it speaks of him growing, waxing strong in 'spirit', filled with wisdom and the grace of God being upon him?

This whole section deals with Jesus Christ, the man - and it shows how he grew, increased in maturity and grace with God. What a good example for us to strive for - and to raise our children so that they, too, might increase in wisdom, maturity and favor with God and men.
Philippians 2
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

I would agree with what you're saying, and would only add this verse. To me, that phrase, He emptied Himself, says a lot about the process of a being fully God being fully man.