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Partaker of Christ
Jan 13th 2009, 03:29 PM
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

My qestion here is: God had made man in His image, but was Adam yet completed in His likeness?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become like one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

kenrank
Jan 13th 2009, 05:12 PM
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

My qestion here is: God had made man in His image, but was Adam yet completed in His likeness?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become like one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Just my personal opinion. I think the word "image" carries two meanings. While it is intended to mean the attributes of God (i.e. love, joy, peace, etc.), the word image in both Hebrew (tslem) and English mean "resemblance, semblance, mirrored reflection, etc." So while Adam took on God's attributes, the word image denotes a physical conotation as well. Since the Son is "The image of God," and Adam was made in God's image...I personally think Adam may have looked like Messiah.

Peace.
Ken

doubledcattle
Jan 14th 2009, 01:43 PM
As we read further we find that God is terribly upset with what he created and wipes away everything from birds to all of the humans, except Noah and his family and the animals that God told him to carry with him. What do you guys think about that as far as bringing this back to the original question?

thethinker
Jan 15th 2009, 12:10 AM
So while Adam took on God's attributes, the word image denotes a physical conotation as well. Since the Son is "The image of God," and Adam was made in God's image...I personally think Adam may have looked like Messiah.

Ken,
How do you incorporate women into your definition of "image" seeing that man and woman do not have the same physical form? I think you know what I mean.

thinker

ross3421
Jan 15th 2009, 03:02 AM
Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Adam's had his own unique likeness and image apart from any other for he was flesh. To be literally be created in God's image would be a spirit, invisable.

Ge 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Ge 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Now we see that God has a likeness and Adam has a seperate likeness. Also note that when he made male and female they were BOTH CALLED ADAM....

Fact is God created man in his own image as spirit beings. He then formed physical man from his creation (earth) whereby at some point the two become one.


Mark

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 03:08 AM
Ken,
How do you incorporate women into your definition of "image" seeing that man and woman do not have the same physical form? I think you know what I mean.

thinker

lol that just painted a VERY weird picture in my head :lol:

Julian
Jan 15th 2009, 07:02 PM
Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Adam's had his own unique likeness and image apart from any other for he was flesh. To be literally be created in God's image would be a spirit, invisable.

Ge 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Ge 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Now we see that God has a likeness and Adam has a seperate likeness. Also note that when he made male and female they were BOTH CALLED ADAM....

Fact is God created man in his own image as spirit beings. He then formed physical man from his creation (earth) whereby at some point the two become one.


MarkI agree- especially in light of John 4:24 "God is spirit". And man died in the day that he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - but yet he went on to live hundreds of years with his breath life and body still living. The only explanation fitting the truth that in that day he died, is the spirit life that God created him with had been lost. And the entire rest of the scriptures show us how the redeemer - Jesus Christ - came to make that spirit life once again a reality in the life of a man who obeys God. What a wonderful savior indeed! We've been sealed with the holy spirit of promise and have a great hope to look forward to - to be forever with the Lord!

thethinker
Jan 15th 2009, 07:48 PM
...man died in the day that he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - but yet he went on to live hundreds of years with his breath life and body still living. The only explanation fitting the truth that in that day he died, is the spirit life that God created him with had been lost.

There is another explanation. Paul defined "death" in Romans 5 to mean condemnation. Jesus also defined death as condemnation,


"He that believes in Me shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life".

The one who is not condemned is therefore alive, that is, not dead.

According to Isaiah 65-66 the new heaven and earth has physical death. It says that children "die" (65:20) and that there are "corpses" present (66:24). But in the new heaven and earth according to Revelation 21 death is abolished (v. 4). The two passages are contradictory if the term "death" has the same meaning in both.

The one passage refers to physical death and the other must refer to condemnation. You choose. I believe that God told Adam that in the day that he ate he would be condemned (or die). Physical death was already a part of his constitution as "dust" (1 Corinthians 15:42-45).

Godspeed

Teke
Jan 15th 2009, 09:05 PM
Ken,
How do you incorporate women into your definition of "image" seeing that man and woman do not have the same physical form? I think you know what I mean.

thinker
HI Thinker,
I know you posted this to Ken, but the answer is simple with Trinity theology applied. Man and woman are both of the same nature and essence, they are human beings. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same nature and essence forming the One Trinity.

IOW Thinker, we don't divide God up, so neither should we humanity. We are all part of the whole of humanity, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all part of the whole of God.
This is also shown in Adam (unbegotten like the Father), Eve (who proceeds from Adam as the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father) and Seth (who is begotten as the Son is begotten of the Father).

Teke
Jan 15th 2009, 09:13 PM
Physical death was already a part of his constitution as "dust" (1 Corinthians 15:42-45).

Godspeed

Good post, just wanted to address this part. Death was not to be our natural outcome. Death (condemnation) was imposed on evil. God set a boundary on how much evil man could do by imposing death on him. Adam's disobedience cursed the ground and placed mankind under toil and labor until his end in death and decay in the grave ("return to the ground").
Death and decay in the grave entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12).

In Peace,
Eve

thethinker
Jan 15th 2009, 09:27 PM
HI Thinker,
I know you posted this to Ken, but the answer is simple with Trinity theology applied. Man and woman are both of the same nature and essence, they are human beings. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same nature and essence forming the One Trinity.

IOW Thinker, we don't divide God up, so neither should we humanity. We are all part of the whole of humanity, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all part of the whole of God.
This is also shown in Adam (unbegotten like the Father), Eve (who proceeds from Adam as the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father) and Seth (who is begotten as the Son is begotten of the Father).

Hi Teke,
I agree with what you say. My comment to Ken was due to his saying that the word "image" denotes a "physical connotation"


So while Adam took on God's attributes, the word image denotes a physical conotation as well. Since the Son is "The image of God," and Adam was made in God's image...I personally think Adam may have looked like Messiah.

My point was that "image" has nothing to do with our physical form. If it did, then who is in God's image more, man or woman?

Godspeed

thethinker
Jan 15th 2009, 09:40 PM
Death and decay in the grave entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12).

Teke,
I think that it is condemnation [death] entered the world through Adam. The first man and woman were not created immortal.

thinker

Teke
Jan 15th 2009, 09:53 PM
Hi Teke,
I agree with what you say. My comment to Ken was due to his saying that the word "image" denotes a "physical connotation"

Well we don't have very good words to express this. But what is a 'physical connotation' but the nature of a thing expressed in a physical form.


My point was that "image" has nothing to do with our physical form. If it did, then who is in God's image more, man or woman?

Godspeed

Not a good idea to systematize this into 'forms'. Even the council of Nicea on the Trinity couldn't come up with something better than 'persona'. Yet we wouldn't say that the Trinity consists of different persons.
IOW could you ask the same question about the Trinity (which is "more" God, Father, Son or Holy Spirit).

In Peace,
Eve

Teke
Jan 15th 2009, 09:58 PM
Teke,
I think that it is condemnation [death] entered the world through Adam. The first man and woman were not created immortal.

thinker

Only God is immortal. We get everlasting Life from Him. Adam was created perfect and could have sustained that perfection with the tree of Life. But he corrupted that which was perfect. It's something mankind has continually done with God's creation, rather than what God told man, which was to take care of it.

mizzdy
Jan 15th 2009, 10:18 PM
I keep wondering if somehow we are not just the representatives of God formed from His imagine so that He can shine forth in this world through us. I know that Adam and Eve were alone in the garden at least as far as man is concerned but truly if God knew they would fall then He may have created us to show forth His goodness and wisdom as long as we are in obediance to Him. I don't think it has anything to do with a trinity since it seems that the early writings have the early historians stating there was two powers in heaven and I can't seem to find any reference to the Holy Spirit being referenced as a separate personage until sometime between the late 2nd century and the 4th century. Also I have been told that the angels were more than likely present and they are created in His image also. Each one of us is so unique in appearance I just cannot imagine what God and His Son could look like!

Teke
Jan 15th 2009, 11:59 PM
How about some scripture Mizzdy...

I keep wondering if somehow we are not just the representatives of God formed from His imagine so that He can shine forth in this world through us.

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


I know that Adam and Eve were alone in the garden at least as far as man is concerned

Man is never alone, God is always present and active.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:


but truly if God knew they would fall then He may have created us to show forth His goodness and wisdom as long as we are in obediance to Him.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


I don't think it has anything to do with a trinity since it seems that the early writings have the early historians stating there was two powers in heaven and I can't seem to find any reference to the Holy Spirit being referenced as a separate personage until sometime between the late 2nd century and the 4th century.

Have you ever studied Trinity theology?


Also I have been told that the angels were more than likely present and they are created in His image also.

Be careful what people tell you.
2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].


Each one of us is so unique in appearance I just cannot imagine what God and His Son could look like!

thethinker
Jan 16th 2009, 12:53 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with a trinity....

Mizzdy,
Yeah. Though I appreciate Teke's sentiments I can't figure how she brings the Trinity into this discussion. Ken said that the "image" has physical connotations. So who is in God's image more? The male or the female?

Moreover, when a man departs to be with the Lord is he made lesser in the image when his body dissolves in the grave? I just don't see Ken's connection between the "image" of God and our physical substance.

Wasn't Jesus always the perfect expression of God's image even before He put on physical form?

thinker

Teke
Jan 16th 2009, 02:22 PM
Though I appreciate Teke's sentiments I can't figure how she brings the Trinity into this discussion. Ken said that the "image" has physical connotations. So who is in God's image more? The male or the female?


thinker

Whether there is physical connotations or spiritual ones, the comparison is to point out that they are both generative.
But let me give more scripture to further make this point.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Life is manifested and SEEN (seeing involves physical form)

See Mizzdy, you don't have to wonder what Jesus and the Father look like, Jesus told them they saw the Father in seeing Him.
I hope your understanding this better Thinker. "Life manifested" is not just a spiritual concept, but also one that is manifested in physical form.

We are Christians, let's think like Christians. That means think about Christ. Jesus was Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary.
To a Christian this means that by Jesus (God) assuming our humanity He has generated His Life to us.
There isn't spiritual without physical or physical without spiritual. We have clear Apostolic confirmation of this.

IamBill
Jan 16th 2009, 03:45 PM
Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Adam's had his own unique likeness and image apart from any other for he was flesh. To be literally be created in God's image would be a spirit, invisable.

Ge 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Ge 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Now we see that God has a likeness and Adam has a seperate likeness. Also note that when he made male and female they were BOTH CALLED ADAM....

Fact is God created man in his own image as spirit beings. He then formed physical man from his creation (earth) whereby at some point the two become one.


Mark

:)
I just have to say-
your post has made me feel "not so alone" in my understanding.

I understand that before eating the fruit A/E were spiritual beings/forms, that masked or held within themselves- physical bodies.

and it was the fruit that stripped them of this.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

perhaps it could be said that when we are born again -the Holy Spirit closes those eyes ...or, makes us aware we had been looking through them ...?

Then, perhaps it could be said that when Christ returns and "changes" those who are still alive ...."Those" (peoples) bodies are going to experience the Opposite of what A/E did.

... perhaps ?
;)

mizzdy
Jan 16th 2009, 05:21 PM
Mizzdy,
Yeah. Though I appreciate Teke's sentiments I can't figure how she brings the Trinity into this discussion. Ken said that the "image" has physical connotations. So who is in God's image more? The male or the female?

Moreover, when a man departs to be with the Lord is he made lesser in the image when his body dissolves in the grave? I just don't see Ken's connection between the "image" of God and our physical substance.

Wasn't Jesus always the perfect expression of God's image even before He put on physical form?

thinker

I believe he was. I don't think our human forms matter much to God but what is in our hearts. Vines dictionary has image written a number of ways; a similar representation, God like qualities, a shadowed resemblance, etc. Perhaps if we had been priviliged to have walked with Christ and saw Him we may have been able to see a shadow of what the Father looked like.

mizzdy
Jan 16th 2009, 05:30 PM
Life is manifested and SEEN (seeing involves physical form)

See Mizzdy, you don't have to wonder what Jesus and the Father look like, Jesus told them they saw the Father in seeing Him.
I hope your understanding this better Thinker. "Life manifested" is not just a spiritual concept, but also one that is manifested in physical form.

We are Christians, let's think like Christians. That means think about Christ. Jesus was Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary.
To a Christian this means that by Jesus (God) assuming our humanity He has generated His Life to us.
There isn't spiritual without physical or physical without spiritual. We have clear Apostolic confirmation of this.

I unfortunately did not have the privilige to walk with Christ and see His actual human form so no I wasn't able to see God's form in Christ. What I can see is the goodness, the humbleness, the grace and love as well as the so many other attributes Christ showed forth while He was here. And as I read the scriptures I find out more and more about my Father and His Son that seeing His physical likeness matters less to me these days as I continue to follow and worship Him in spirit. I do think that if we are to show the 'image' of God and Christ we need to represent them in all of our actions, thoughts and deeds. Which in so many words I think we are saying the same thing.

thethinker
Jan 16th 2009, 07:24 PM
Whether there is physical connotations or spiritual ones, the comparison is to point out that they are both generative.
But let me give more scripture to further make this point.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

1Jo 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Life is manifested and SEEN (seeing involves physical form)

See Mizzdy, you don't have to wonder what Jesus and the Father look like, Jesus told them they saw the Father in seeing Him.
I hope your understanding this better Thinker. "Life manifested" is not just a spiritual concept, but also one that is manifested in physical form
If the physical form of Jesus was the expression of the image of God then how could Jesus have said to the Jews, "You have neither heard His [God's] voice or seen His form? (John 5:37) The unbelieving Jews looked upon the same physical Jesus as the disciples did. Yet the disciples had "seen" the Father and the unbelieving Jews did not. So the physical appearance of Jesus does not speak to the "image" question.

It was the words that Jesus spoke that were the expression of God's image. Those who heard and understood had "seen" the Father. Those who did NOT understand did not hear God's voice or see His form.

Blessings,
thinker

mizzdy
Jan 16th 2009, 09:22 PM
If the physical form of Jesus was the expression of the image of God then how could Jesus have said to the Jews, "You have neither heard His [God's] voice or seen His form? (John 5:37) The unbelieving Jews looked upon the same physical Jesus as the disciples did. Yet the disciples had "seen" the Father and the unbelieving Jews did not. So the physical appearance of Jesus does not speak to the "image" question.

It was the words that Jesus spoke that was the expression of God's image. Those who heard and understood had "seen" the Father. Those who did NOT understand did not hear God's voice or see His form.

Blessings,
thinker

As I said I don't get too hung up on the outworldly form. I do agree it is the words Christ spoke, the message He sent forward and what we do with it, is the image God wants us to show forth. All is revealed in His truth even His image.

Blessings to you,
Mizzdy