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Julian
Jan 14th 2009, 04:53 AM
1 Cor 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

We see here that in Adam all die, and in Christ all shall be made alive. But when?

Does verse 23 speak of us (those who have died as Christians) being made alive immediately after death to be alive in heaven, or does it speak of us being made alive afterward at Christ's coming?

The context here is Christ being the FIRST fruits of them that slept/died, and by MAN coming the resurrection of the dead (another noteworthy topic) - but it also addresses WHEN those that are Christ's (Christians) shall be made alive: at his coming.

Are you looking forward to his coming to gather us with him in the air/clouds and to be forever with the Lord?
Isn't that still true for all those Christians who shall have died on the day the Lord returns?
Have you ever considered what this section of scripture means in it's simplicity without having to add in other theologies/doctrines?

Maybe the scriptures here are worth another look...

slightlypuzzled
Jan 14th 2009, 05:35 AM
The context is speaking of the end, and the final resurrection...as far as I can read the context.

crossnote
Jan 14th 2009, 07:05 AM
We have already been made alive in Christ via the new birth. Or are you asking when do our bodies rise to be united with our souls?
This passage may shed further light.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:14-17)

Julian
Jan 14th 2009, 07:08 PM
The context is speaking of the end, and the final resurrection...as far as I can read the context.
It says specifically 'at his coming'. What does that mean to you if not at his coming when he gathers us together in the air?

Julian
Jan 14th 2009, 07:12 PM
We have already been made alive in Christ via the new birth. Or are you asking when do our bodies rise to be united with our souls?
This passage may shed further light.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:14-17)

As my question says, I'm referring to the time after a Christian dies - when will they be made alive?

I'm talking about them which are alseep from the above passage you referr to - but specifically in the verses in 1 Cor 15 that I posted.

I was looking for a discussion on the topic to see if people agree that we will be made alive at his coming, or if people believe that we will already be alive.

Walstib
Jan 14th 2009, 07:18 PM
I don't know as there is a time after conception our souls are not alive.

But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Mat 22:31-32 NKJV)

Making a distinction between whether you mean their physical bodies or their souls would help us understand you better with what part you refer to as being alive.

Peace,
Joe

Julian
Jan 14th 2009, 07:35 PM
I don't know as there is a time after conception our souls are not alive.

But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Mat 22:31-32 NKJV)

Making a distinction between whether you mean their physical bodies or their souls would help us understand you better with what part you refer to as being alive.

Peace,
Joe That scripture speaks about those who are resurrected - and that those who are then alive have him as their God and those who are not alive don't.

I can't tell if you are considering it in the context or not. When shall the dead Christians be made alive???? Whatever dead means in 1 Cor 15:20-22, those who are dead shall be made alive at some point. I don't see how they can be alive if the scriptures call them dead and that they shall be made alive after.

Alive and dead are opposites - but some theology gets in the way of this clear thinking because it seems that people teach we are alive already before the part that says "even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming".

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 07:47 PM
That scripture speaks about those who are resurrected - and that those who are then alive have him as their God and those who are not alive don't.

I can't tell if you are considering it in the context or not. When shall the dead Christians be made alive???? Whatever dead means in 1 Cor 15:20-22, those who are dead shall be made alive at some point. I don't see how they can be alive if the scriptures call them dead and that they shall be made alive after.

Alive and dead are opposites - but some theology gets in the way of this clear thinking because it seems that people teach we are alive already before the part that says "even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming".1 Cor 15 is only speaking of our bodies. Our bodies will be changed and made alive at His coming at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52). In a spiritual sense, we have already been made alive after having been previously spiritually dead in our sins.

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Butch5
Jan 14th 2009, 09:30 PM
As my question says, I'm referring to the time after a Christian dies - when will they be made alive?

I'm talking about them which are alseep from the above passage you referr to - but specifically in the verses in 1 Cor 15 that I posted.

I was looking for a discussion on the topic to see if people agree that we will be made alive at his coming, or if people believe that we will already be alive.

I believe we will be made alive at His coming. Until then our souls will remain in hades.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 10:16 PM
I believe we will be made alive at His coming. Until then our souls will remain in hades.Is Hades located under the altar?

Rev 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Seems to me that these souls are in heaven, not Hades.

Butch5
Jan 14th 2009, 11:23 PM
Is Hades located under the altar?

Rev 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Seems to me that these souls are in heaven, not Hades.

What is the altar that is referenced?

Where is the altar that is referenced?

Julian
Jan 14th 2009, 11:57 PM
I believe we will be made alive at His coming. Until then our souls will remain in hades.That seems to line up with the scriptures I found, that is if we're dead at the time. We would be alive if we were in heaven and conscious up there.

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 12:14 AM
That seems to line up with the scriptures I found, that is if we're dead at the time. We would be alive if we were in heaven and conscious up there.

It seems to be the case, looking at the Scriptures and the early church understanding.

crossnote
Jan 15th 2009, 06:33 AM
Let's try it from this angle.

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(Joh 11:24-26)

Julian, do you believe this?

Julian
Jan 15th 2009, 02:06 PM
Let's try it from this angle.

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(Joh 11:24-26)

Julian, do you believe this?
Yes - and I also believe the part in the middle that says 'though he were dead, yet shall he live.'

THanks for tha question.

Dani H
Jan 15th 2009, 03:32 PM
I don't think our spirits and souls are held in any sort of "limbo" until we receive a resurrected body. Stephen asked the Lord to receive his spirit before he died. Paul mentioned that to be absent from the body meant to be present with the Lord. So it's logical to believe that we're going to be present with the Lord in some form until the Day of His return, when our bodies are raised incorruptible and united with our souls and spirits eternally, never to die again. Paul states in 1 Corinthians that our bodies are sown into the ground as seeds, to be raised into something mature and beautiful and eternal, fit to join our already quickened spirits and our souls along with them. That's certainly something awesome and miraculous to look forward to!

On the other hand, he also refers to those who went on as being "asleep." I don't mind sleeping, at all. I do it every night, and am not any worse for it, nor do I suffer in any way while I do so. As a matter of fact, sleeping can make 8 or 9 hours seem like 5 minutes, and so the time span between falling asleep and waking up would be completely secondary, I would think. So whether asleep or awake, we'll be with the Lord until the Resurrection from the dead. And that sounds just dandy to me. :)

Julian
Jan 15th 2009, 03:48 PM
Paul states in 1 Corinthians that our bodies are sown into the ground as seeds, to be raised into something mature and beautiful and eternal, fit to join our already quickened spirits and our souls along with them. That's certainly something awesome and miraculous to look forward to!
Do you have any verses to check out that say all this?


On the other hand, he also refers to those who went on as being "asleep." I don't mind sleeping, at all. I do it every night, and am not any worse for it, nor do I suffer in any way while I do so. As a matter of fact, sleeping can make 8 or 9 hours seem like 5 minutes, and so the time span between falling asleep and waking up would be completely secondary, I would think. So whether asleep or awake, we'll be with the Lord until the Resurrection from the dead. And that sounds just dandy to me. :)Sleep is a synonym to being dead in the scriptures (at least on the same topic, not taking a nap thought).

So those who are dead are 'sleeping' and shall be made alive at his coming - according to the scriptures I posted at first. It appears we wouldn't be dead if we were alive (in heaven) prior to that.

Do the scriptures speak more along the lines of Christians who have died being alive in heaven and then joining their bodies that are made alive, or more toward actually being dead and then being made alive at his coming? I don't recall any scripture that says they shall be alive in heaven the whole time their body is dead and in the grave. It seems like people have tried to piece together various scriptures to make this a teaching, but at the expense of actually being dead/sleeping until Christ's return.

Dani H
Jan 15th 2009, 03:57 PM
Do you have any verses to check out that say all this?

1 Cor 15

(NKJV)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

(Amplified)

42So it is with the resurrection of the dead. [The body] that is sown is perishable and decays, but [the body] that is resurrected is imperishable (immune to decay, immortal).
43It is sown in dishonor and humiliation; it is raised in honor and glory. It is sown in infirmity and weakness; it is resurrected in strength and endued with power.
44It is sown a natural (physical) body; it is raised a supernatural (a spiritual) body. [As surely as] there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being (an individual personality); the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving Spirit [restoring the dead to life].

(Message)

42-44This image of planting a dead seed and raising a live plant is a mere sketch at best, but perhaps it will help in approaching the mystery of the resurrection body—but only if you keep in mind that when we're raised, we're raised for good, alive forever! The corpse that's planted is no beauty, but when it's raised, it's glorious. Put in the ground weak, it comes up powerful. The seed sown is natural; the seed grown is supernatural—same seed, same body, but what a difference from when it goes down in physical mortality to when it is raised up in spiritual immortality! 45-49We follow this sequence in Scripture: The First Adam received life, the Last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.

John146
Jan 15th 2009, 06:31 PM
1 Cor 15

(NKJV)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

(Amplified)

42So it is with the resurrection of the dead. [The body] that is sown is perishable and decays, but [the body] that is resurrected is imperishable (immune to decay, immortal).
43It is sown in dishonor and humiliation; it is raised in honor and glory. It is sown in infirmity and weakness; it is resurrected in strength and endued with power.
44It is sown a natural (physical) body; it is raised a supernatural (a spiritual) body. [As surely as] there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being (an individual personality); the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving Spirit [restoring the dead to life].

(Message)

42-44This image of planting a dead seed and raising a live plant is a mere sketch at best, but perhaps it will help in approaching the mystery of the resurrection body—but only if you keep in mind that when we're raised, we're raised for good, alive forever! The corpse that's planted is no beauty, but when it's raised, it's glorious. Put in the ground weak, it comes up powerful. The seed sown is natural; the seed grown is supernatural—same seed, same body, but what a difference from when it goes down in physical mortality to when it is raised up in spiritual immortality! 45-49We follow this sequence in Scripture: The First Adam received life, the Last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.So it should be noted that this only speaks of the body and makes no mention of the spirit and soul. Our souls and/or spirits will not need to be resurrected because we have already been made alive spiritually after having been previously spiritually dead in our sins and trespasses (see Ephesians 2:1-6).

Julian
Jan 15th 2009, 07:18 PM
1 Cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Of course, I was thinking that already - but that doesn't deal with the other part of what you said. Please provide scripture that deals with:

...fit to join our already quickened spirits and our souls along with themEspecially in light of the believer dying and having the spirit and sould already in heaven.

It says 'we' shall be made alive 'at his coming'. If it is only talking about out flesh, then why does it say 'every man' instead of 'just the flesh of every man'?

RogerW
Jan 15th 2009, 08:19 PM
So those who are dead are 'sleeping' and shall be made alive at his coming - according to the scriptures I posted at first. It appears we wouldn't be dead if we were alive (in heaven) prior to that.

Do the scriptures speak more along the lines of Christians who have died being alive in heaven and then joining their bodies that are made alive, or more toward actually being dead and then being made alive at his coming? I don't recall any scripture that says they shall be alive in heaven the whole time their body is dead and in the grave. It seems like people have tried to piece together various scriptures to make this a teaching, but at the expense of actually being dead/sleeping until Christ's return.

Greetings Julian,

Something happened at the cross, death and resurrection of Christ that you are not considering. Many saints died in faith looking for the fulfillment of His coming. These are those "that slept", not those who will die, but those who had already died in Christ before the cross. All of these were made alive at His first coming when He led captivity captive (Eph 4:8-10).

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

No one before the cross was resurrected spiritually until Christ descended into hell (the grave) to free them from captivity of death and the grave. Christ's death is victory, for the grave could not hold Him, and it could no longer hold believers who had died in faith without having received the promise of their eternal home in heaven. But not even the OT saints, who died in faith will be bodily resurrected until the fullness of time. This too will be at His coming, but the bodily resurrection is at His Second Coming, not the first.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Every believer looks for and patiently await His coming and the resurrection. Those who died in faith prior to the cross looked for His coming to resurrect them from death and the grave spiritually the first time, and every believer both before and after the cross looks for and patiently awaits His coming to resurrect them bodily in the fulness of time.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 08:53 PM
Roger---Christ's death is victory, for the grave could not hold Him, and it could no longer hold believers who had died in faith without having received the promise of their eternal home in heaven.


Roger, Can you show me where Scripture promises us an eternal home in heaven?

Dani H
Jan 15th 2009, 09:04 PM
Of course, I was thinking that already - but that doesn't deal with the other part of what you said. Please provide scripture that deals with:
Especially in light of the believer dying and having the spirit and sould already in heaven.

It says 'we' shall be made alive 'at his coming'. If it is only talking about out flesh, then why does it say 'every man' instead of 'just the flesh of every man'?

Ephesians 2:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

1 Peter 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=3&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Colossians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=2&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Romans 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The way I read this, we already share in that part of Christ's resurrection by having our spirits made alive by His Spirit, Who now lives in us and through Whom we share in resurrection power already. So as far as God is concerned, we were already dead in our trespasses and sins, but now we are alive. What remains, is our bodies.

Romans 6:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

Our body is yet mortal and has yet to die (or be changed at His coming for those of us who happen to be walking around here when that happens).

Julian
Jan 15th 2009, 10:41 PM
Greetings Julian,

Something happened at the cross, death and resurrection of Christ that you are not considering. Many saints died in faith looking for the fulfillment of His coming. These are those "that slept", not those who will die, but those who had already died in Christ before the cross. All of these were made alive at His first coming when He led captivity captive (Eph 4:8-10).

Roger,

Thanks for the post. I have studied the term 'captivity captive' and it basically means that he captive those who had captivated the believers. I don't think it means that he resurrected those who were dead in Christ.

Here's Col 2:15 15When He had (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col 2:15&version=49#cen-NASB-29510A))disarmed the (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col 2:15&version=49#cen-NASB-29510B))rulers and authorities, He (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col 2:15&version=49#cen-NASB-29510C))made a public display of them, having (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col 2:15&version=49#cen-NASB-29510D))triumphed over them through Him.



1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

No one before the cross was resurrected spiritually until Christ descended into hell (the grave) to free them from captivity of death and the grave. Christ's death is victory, for the grave could not hold Him, and it could no longer hold believers who had died in faith without having received the promise of their eternal home in heaven. But not even the OT saints, who died in faith will be bodily resurrected until the fullness of time. This too will be at His coming, but the bodily resurrection is at His Second Coming, not the first.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Every believer looks for and patiently await His coming and the resurrection. Those who died in faith prior to the cross looked for His coming to resurrect them from death and the grave spiritually the first time, and every believer both before and after the cross looks for and patiently awaits His coming to resurrect them bodily in the fulness of time.

Many Blessings,
RW
So the OT believers were partially resurrected? Seems strange.
Death seems to be paritally destroyed for all who are in heaven now. It doesn't appear to be very much an enemy at all if people are alive with Jesus instead of dead in the grave waiting for his return.

My main concern is this:
What about King David, is he ascended into heaven?

divaD
Jan 16th 2009, 12:27 AM
So the OT believers were partially resurrected? Seems strange.
Death seems to be paritally destroyed for all who are in heaven now. It doesn't appear to be very much an enemy at all if
people are alive with Jesus instead of dead in the grave waiting for his return.


I can see your point here, but according to Rev ch 20, death won't be destroyed until the white throne judgment takes place. This would occur after the first resurrection. So even tho the first resurrection occurs first, death is not yet destroyed. Death will still be an enemy, it just won't have any more power over those who make the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This appears to be to me when death is destroyed forever. This of course being after the first resurrection.

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 02:17 AM
Roger, Can you show me where Scripture promises us an eternal home in heaven?

Heaven is not where we will finally spend eternity. But it is the place where our spirit essence awaits the fullness of time. Our eternal homes will be in the new heaven and new earth when the holy city, descending out of heaven from God (Rev 21:10).

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Before the cross OT believers could not ascend into heaven spiritually because Christ had not yet gone there to prepare a place for them. After the cross Christ emptied the grave/hell, setting free OT saints who had died in faith, and were held captive by death and the grave/hell. Since the cross to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Blessings,
RW

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 16th 2009, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by Butch5 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1945823#post1945823)
Roger, Can you show me where Scripture promises us an eternal home in heaven?
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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
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I dont know how alot of you translate this.. but its pretty cut and dried.. that Jesus went away to 'prepare' a place for His Own and those He loves...
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But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.



God is preparing something special for each one of His children.. Each one of His children is unique.. and those things He has prepared will never 'equal' anything we've accomplished or gained here on this planet... for those things He is preparing " are Eternal.... "

How many of you are awaiting the time to hear.. when God Himself will tell you...


Welcome Home My child... behold the Glory of God.. and behold how much He has loved you.. and what He has prepared for you...

amen and amen.....

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 02:49 AM
Heaven is not where we will finally spend eternity. But it is the place where our spirit essence awaits the fullness of time. Our eternal homes will be in the new heaven and new earth when the holy city, descending out of heaven from God (Rev 21:10).

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Before the cross OT believers could not ascend into heaven spiritually because Christ had not yet gone there to prepare a place for them. After the cross Christ emptied the grave/hell, setting free OT saints who had died in faith, and were held captive by death and the grave/hell. Since the cross to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Blessings,
RW

Roger,

Where does the Scripture say we go to heaven. Scripture says He lead captivity captive, it doesn't say anyone went to heaven.

Where does Scripture say that Christ emptied the grave and hell?

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by Butch5 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1945823#post1945823)
Roger, Can you show me where Scripture promises us an eternal home in heaven?
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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont know how alot of you translate this.. but its pretty cut and dried.. that Jesus went away to 'prepare' a place for His Own and those He loves...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.



God is preparing something special for each one of His children.. Each one of His children is unique.. and those things He has prepared will never 'equal' anything we've accomplished or gained here on this planet... for those things He is preparing " are Eternal.... "

How many of you are awaiting the time to hear.. when God Himself will tell you...


Welcome Home My child... behold the Glory of God.. and behold how much He has loved you.. and what He has prepared for you...

amen and amen.....

Where does this say we have an eternal home in heaven?

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 02:53 AM
Roger,

Thanks for the post. I have studied the term 'captivity captive' and it basically means that he captive those who had captivated the believers. I don't think it means that he resurrected those who were dead in Christ.

Hi Julian,

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Christ did not ascend into heaven empty handed. As a result of His mediatorial work He returned in triumph to heaven. He had accomplished salvation for His people. This captivity He led in His train are all those OT saints who had been marked for salvation, and their spiritual ascension assures every believer that we too will go immediately to be with the Lord upon physical death. Our bodies of death go into the grave/hell, but even though our bodies have died we; our spirit essence lives (Jo 11:25,26) on with Him in heaven.

Eze 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

They were marked for salvation because the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent to set His seal upon them. They died in faith looking for the promise of His coming in victory, knowing that He would not leave them in the grave/hell.



So the OT believers were partially resurrected? Seems strange.
Death seems to be paritally destroyed for all who are in heaven now. It doesn't appear to be very much an enemy at all if people are alive with Jesus instead of dead in the grave waiting for his return.

Every believer receives only partial resurrection, or a spiritual resurrection in this age. No believer will be resurrected fully; with body and spirit until Christ comes again. There is joy of course to be absent from this body of death and decay and to be present with the Lord. However no believer is content to be in a state of disembodied spirit or soul essence (Rev 6:9-11). We long to be clothed with a glorious spiritual body like His in the fullness of time. We will not experience complete joy until we are bodily resurrected to be with Him in the re-created new earth, reigning with Christ forever in the holy city, New Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven.



My main concern is this:
What about King David, is he ascended into heaven?

Yes, David too ascended into heaven when Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth (grave/hell) and led captivity captive. When David died, he, like all men went into the grave to await Christ's coming. For David, and all the OT saints, it was the first coming they looked for. Now that they have ascended into heaven spiritually, they too look for His Coming again to redeem His elect bride.

Many Blessings,
RW

bennie
Jan 16th 2009, 03:08 AM
Heaven is not where we will finally spend eternity. But it is the place where our spirit essence awaits the fullness of time. Our eternal homes will be in the new heaven and new earth when the holy city, descending out of heaven from God (Rev 21:10).

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Before the cross OT believers could not ascend into heaven spiritually because Christ had not yet gone there to prepare a place for them. After the cross Christ emptied the grave/hell, setting free OT saints who had died in faith, and were held captive by death and the grave/hell. Since the cross to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Blessings,
RW


so before Christ sole sleeping happend, but after Christ not??

bennie

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 03:22 AM
so before Christ sole sleeping happend, but after Christ not??

bennie

Hi Bennie,

Soul sleeping? According to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus died and was carried into Abraham's bosom. In the parable Lazarus seems very much aware of all that is taking place. I understand this is a parable, but like all the kingdom parables this one too shows us that bodily death is not the end of man.

We also find evidence of souls under the altar crying out to God to avenge them. They are given white robes and told they must rest a little while waiting until all things are fulfilled (Rev 6).

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 03:29 AM
Roger,

Where does the Scripture say we go to heaven. Scripture says He lead captivity captive, it doesn't say anyone went to heaven.

Where does Scripture say that Christ emptied the grave and hell?

I should have said Christ emptied that part of the grave/hell where OT saints went upon physical death. That part of the grave called Abraham's bosom is where Christ decended to set the captives there free. As for the rest, who died without faith, both death, the grave, and finally the lake of fire still awaits them.

Many Blessings,
RW

bennie
Jan 16th 2009, 03:29 AM
Hi Bennie,

Soul sleeping? According to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus died and was carried into Abraham's bosom. In the parable Lazarus seems very much aware of all that is taking place. I understand this is a parable, but like all the kingdom parables this one too shows us that bodily death is not the end of man.

We also find evidence of souls under the altar crying out to God to avenge them. They are given white robes and told they must rest a little while waiting until all things are fulfilled (Rev 6).

Many Blessings,
RW

hi roger.

in you previos post you said the OT believers spirits/souls was resurected when Christ came/went to heaven.
What where there souls doing in the meantime?

bennie

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 03:54 AM
Roger---Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Christ did not ascend into heaven empty handed. As a result of His mediatorial work He returned in triumph to heaven. He had accomplished salvation for His people. This captivity He led in His train are all those OT saints who had been marked for salvation, and their spiritual ascension assures every believer that we too will go immediately to be with the Lord upon physical death. Our bodies of death go into the grave/hell, but even though our bodies have died we; our spirit essence lives (Jo 11:25,26) on with Him in heaven.


Roger, look at what it says, "He" ascended, it doesn't say anything about anyone else.

If all of the OT saints went to heaven, don't you think Paul would have made that clear to those he taught. Here is a quote from Clement of Rome, most like the one mentioned in Philippians

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Chap. L.—Let Us Pray to Be Thought Worthy of Love. Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, “Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves.” (Isa. 26:20)

Isaiah 26:20-21 ( KJV ) 20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The question then becomes where are these chambers? Let's consider Samuel,

1 Samuel 28:12-15 ( KJV ) 12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.



15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.



It appears that the chambers are in the earth. Now Clement says that it was so even in His day, which was after Christ ascended on high.



This is in agreement with the writings of hte first century church.




Roger---Yes, David too ascended into heaven when Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth (grave/hell) and led captivity captive. When David died, he, like all men went into the grave to await Christ's coming. For David, and all the OT saints, it was the first coming they looked for. Now that they have ascended into heaven spiritually, they too look for His Coming again to redeem His elect bride.

Here Peter says,

Acts 2:29-36 ( KJV ) 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter says that David is not ascended into heaven.

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 03:56 AM
I should have said Christ emptied that part of the grave/hell where OT saints went upon physical death. That part of the grave called Abraham's bosom is where Christ decended to set the captives there free. As for the rest, who died without faith, both death, the grave, and finally the lake of fire still awaits them.

Many Blessings,
RW

Where does Scripture tell us that Christ emptied Abraham's bosom?

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 03:57 AM
Hi Bennie,

Soul sleeping? According to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus died and was carried into Abraham's bosom. In the parable Lazarus seems very much aware of all that is taking place. I understand this is a parable, but like all the kingdom parables this one too shows us that bodily death is not the end of man.

We also find evidence of souls under the altar crying out to God to avenge them. They are given white robes and told they must rest a little while waiting until all things are fulfilled (Rev 6).

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

Those under the altar were slain for hte word.

Also where is the Altar?

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 04:01 AM
hi roger.

in you previos post you said the OT believers spirits/souls was resurected when Christ came/went to heaven.
What where there souls doing in the meantime?

bennie

Hi bennie,

According to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and souls under the altar, they were waiting in faith in Abraham's bosom. This appears to teach there is a conscience existance for them. The parable tells us that when Lazarus died the angels carried him into Abraham's bosom, and the rich man also died and was buried. Why make this distinction since every man is buried upon death?

What exactly the conscience existance consists of I don't know. The Sadducees doubted the resurrection of the dead both spiritually and bodily. Christ tells them that in the resurrection (spiritually) they are like the angels in heaven, neither marrying nor being given in marriage (Mt 22:30,31; Mk 12:25). Angels are spirit beings, and since flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God (1Co 15:50), to be like the angels in heaven is to be in spirit essence. What that meant for the OT saints who died in faith waiting for fulfillment of the promise...were they waiting in silence in Abraham's bosom?

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
Jan 16th 2009, 04:19 AM
According to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and souls under the altar, they were waiting in faith in Abraham's
bosom. This appears to teach there is a conscience existance for them. The parable tells us that when Lazarus died the angels
carried him into Abraham's bosom, and the rich man also died and was buried. Why make this distinction since every man is
buried upon death?


Hi RW. If this is a parable, in which I agree that it is, why are you then interpreting it as literal? How can it be a parable and literal at the same time? If we are to take that parable as literal, then we must take all of the other parables that Jesus spoke as literal also. IMO, that's not staying consistent.

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 04:30 AM
Hi bennie,

According to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and souls under the altar, they were waiting in faith in Abraham's bosom. This appears to teach there is a conscience existance for them. The parable tells us that when Lazarus died the angels carried him into Abraham's bosom, and the rich man also died and was buried. Why make this distinction since every man is buried upon death?

What exactly the conscience existance consists of I don't know. The Sadducees doubted the resurrection of the dead both spiritually and bodily. Christ tells them that in the resurrection (spiritually) they are like the angels in heaven, neither marrying nor being given in marriage (Mt 22:30,31; Mk 12:25). Angels are spirit beings, and since flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God (1Co 15:50), to be like the angels in heaven is to be in spirit essence. What that meant for the OT saints who died in faith waiting for fulfillment of the promise...were they waiting in silence in Abraham's bosom?

Many Blessings,
RW

Where is the spiritual resurrection and the physical?

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 05:02 AM
Roger, look at what it says, "He" ascended, it doesn't say anything about anyone else.

Butch it says, "when He ascended upon high, He led captivity captive." This is setting free all who are held in bondage to Satan, sin and death/grave. The OT saints went with Christ into heaven just as everyone who dies in Christ now goes to be with the Lord. They could not go there until Christ defeated Satan and death/grave. Once He did this why would the OT saints still be held in bondage to death and the grave since every NT saint goes immediately upon death to the Lord?



If all of the OT saints went to heaven, don't you think Paul would have made that clear to those he taught.

Paul can't make it much clearer. "When He ascended upon high, He led captivity captive." We are all held in captivity of Satan, sin and death until we are set free in Christ. Once we are set free, we become the spoils of war for Christ. He is the Victor, and we are now held captive by Him.



Here is a quote from Clement of Rome, most like the one mentioned in Philippians

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Chap. L.—Let Us Pray to Be Thought Worthy of Love. Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. For it is written, “Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves.” (Isa. 26:20)

I agree with Clement of Rome. Those OT saints upon death possess a place among the Godly; i.e. Abraham's bosom, and when Christ comes and defeats Satan and death/grave/hell they, like the NT saints who die in faith, will be spiritually resurrected to be with the Lord.



Isaiah 26:20-21 ( KJV ) 20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

What's the difference between those who now possess a place among the Godly and those who die in unbelief?

Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



The question then becomes where are these chambers? Let's consider Samuel,

1 Samuel 28:12-15 ( KJV ) 12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.



15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Yes, Samuel died in faith and went into that part of the grave called Abraham's bosom. Very clearly, since the woman was able to bring Samuel up, he was not among the deceased who shall not live because they are deceased, they shall not rise and the memory of them is made to perish.






It appears that the chambers are in the earth. Now Clement says that it was so even in His day, which was after Christ ascended on high.




This is in agreement with the writings of hte first century church.

Of course it appears they are in the earth. Very clearly before Christ ascended into heaven He first descended into the lower parts of the earth (Eph 4:9) to set the captives free. He did not set free those who die in unbelief, who are remembered no more.



Here Peter says,

Acts 2:29-36 ( KJV ) 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter says that David is not ascended into heaven.

This does not affirm that David's spirit had not ascended to heaven, but that he had not been exalted in the heavens in the sense in which Peter was speaking of the Messiah. Christ had been bodily resurrected, but David would not be resurrected bodily until the end of time. Since Pentecost marks the beginning of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, even though David has been a long time waiting, he too was spiritually resurrected to heaven when Christ led captivity captive.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 05:20 AM
Roger,

Those under the altar were slain for hte word.

Also where is the Altar?

Yes they were slain for the Word. Notice the verse in Rev 6 says, "they were slain for the Word of God and the testimony they held." No mention of Jesus. Compare that to Rev 20:4 that says, "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God". The souls in Rev 6 are under the altar, but the souls in Rev 20 are in heaven.

To be under the altar means to be under Christ or under His sacrifice. They were not yet in heaven, because Christ had not yet come, and gone there to prepare a place for them. Saying they are "under the altar" is akin to saying they are in Abraham's bosom, or already safe in Christ, under His sacrificial offering. The reason there is no mention of Christ in Rev 6 I believe is because this is a picture of the OT saints, who have died in faith waiting in Abraham's bosom for the promise of His coming. But in Rev 20:4 it speaks of not only those martyred before the cross, but also those martyred after the cross, or after His coming. They could not bear witness of Jesus because He had not yet come, so they simply waited under the altar, safe in the bosom of Abraham until fulfillment of the promise of His coming.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 05:49 AM
Hi RW. If this is a parable, in which I agree that it is, why are you then interpreting it as literal? How can it be a parable and literal at the same time? If we are to take that parable as literal, then we must take all of the other parables that Jesus spoke as literal also. IMO, that's not staying consistent.

Hi Diva,

What is the definition of a parable? A similitude ("parable"), i.e. (symbolic) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apothegm or adage:--comparison, figure, parable, proverb. In His parables Christ is using symbolic language to convey a spiritual reality. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man the message conveys that how we live in this life; i.e. wicked handling of people and wealth may have eternal consquences.

The rich man is simply buried, but Lazarus is carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. According to Scripture angels are: attendants of Christ (2Th 1:7), their exalted Head (Eph 1:21,22; Col 2:10). They are bringers of good tidings concerning our salvation (see Lu 2:14; 24:4-7; Acts 1:11; 1Tim 3:16). They are defenders of God's children (Ps 34:7; 91:11; Dan 6:22; 10:10,13,20; Mt 18:10; Acts 5:19; 2 Th 1:7-10; Rev 12:7). They are examples of obedience and friends of the redeemed, constantly watching over them, deeply interested in their salvation, and rendering service to them in every way.

In life Lazarus had shown himself to belong to the Lord, and now God has ordered the angels to take his soul to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. Note the meaningful contrast Christ is making here: nothing is said about the beggar's burial; on the other hand nothing is said about the rich man's soul, as to what happened to it the moment of death.

Hell is depicting the place of eternal torments. But contrast that to Abraham's bosom the thought may well be that not even all the demons streaming forth out of the gates of hell will ever be able to destroy Christ's true church. The picture here is plain, the one great truth the parable conveys is that once a person has died, and his soul is separated from his body, his conditon, whether blessed or doomed, is fixed forever.

Many Blessings,
RW

Julian
Jan 16th 2009, 06:05 AM
I can see your point here, but according to Rev ch 20, death won't be destroyed until the white throne judgment takes place. This would occur after the first resurrection. So even tho the first resurrection occurs first, death is not yet destroyed. Death will still be an enemy, it just won't have any more power over those who make the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This appears to be to me when death is destroyed forever. This of course being after the first resurrection.
1 Cor 15:52-56 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Death will be swallowed up in victory when the mortals living in Christ shall have put on immortality.

Julian
Jan 16th 2009, 06:11 AM
Hi Julian,

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Christ did not ascend into heaven empty handed. As a result of His mediatorial work He returned in triumph to heaven. He had accomplished salvation for His people. This captivity He led in His train are all those OT saints who had been marked for salvation, and their spiritual ascension assures every believer that we too will go immediately to be with the Lord upon physical death. Our bodies of death go into the grave/hell, but even though our bodies have died we; our spirit essence lives (Jo 11:25,26) on with Him in heaven.

Eze 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

They were marked for salvation because the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent to set His seal upon them. They died in faith looking for the promise of His coming in victory, knowing that He would not leave them in the grave/hell.



Every believer receives only partial resurrection, or a spiritual resurrection in this age. No believer will be resurrected fully; with body and spirit until Christ comes again. There is joy of course to be absent from this body of death and decay and to be present with the Lord. However no believer is content to be in a state of disembodied spirit or soul essence (Rev 6:9-11). We long to be clothed with a glorious spiritual body like His in the fullness of time. We will not experience complete joy until we are bodily resurrected to be with Him in the re-created new earth, reigning with Christ forever in the holy city, New Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven.
It's hard to accept someone saying 'partial resurrection' when it's not found in scripture. If I'm wrong, please post the scripture otherwise.

Also - if all the OT saints are ascended into heaven now, what gives with Peter's teaching on the day of Pentecost?



Yes, David too ascended into heaven when Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth (grave/hell) and led captivity captive. When David died, he, like all men went into the grave to await Christ's coming. For David, and all the OT saints, it was the first coming they looked for. Now that they have ascended into heaven spiritually, they too look for His Coming again to redeem His elect bride.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

This scripture says David is not ascended into the heavens, but you say that he too ascended into heaven. Does not compute.

Care to look at things from my view a bit more after reading these two differences?

John146
Jan 16th 2009, 06:14 PM
Hi RW. If this is a parable, in which I agree that it is, why are you then interpreting it as literal? How can it be a parable and literal at the same time? If we are to take that parable as literal, then we must take all of the other parables that Jesus spoke as literal also. IMO, that's not staying consistent.It mentions Abraham, Lazarus and Moses, who are all literal people. It mentions hell, a literal place. It mentions angels, who are literal spiritual beings. Why are you acting as if it doesn't speak of anything literal when it clearly does?

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 06:45 PM
It's hard to accept someone saying 'partial resurrection' when it's not found in scripture. If I'm wrong, please post the scripture otherwise.

Hi Julian,

It's not a partial spiritual resurrection. When we are given new life in Christ; spiritual life, that spiritual awakening is full or complete. It is because we have been given this spiritual life when we were born again by the Spirit that we can go to be with the Lord when we die physically (Jo 3:3-8). But the resurrection of our bodies, being re-united with our spirit will not happen until Christ comes again, changing our mortal bodies of death and corruption into immortality and incorruptible. It is then, in the fullness of time that our resurrection will be completely realized because we will be clothed with both a spirit and body once again.



Also - if all the OT saints are ascended into heaven now, what gives with Peter's teaching on the day of Pentecost?

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

This scripture says David is not ascended into the heavens, but you say that he too ascended into heaven. Does not compute.

Julian, I believe we must seek to understand this in light of the New Testament teaching. Very clearly David did not ascend into heaven when he died. The passage plainly tells us he was buried and his sepulchre was still visible though David had died many years ago.

But don't we also read Paul in the NT telling us "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord"? (2Co 5:8) Also in Ph 1:20-24 we read: "According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."

There is little doubt in my mind that Paul longed for that time when he would be with the Lord when he died. In another place Paul spoke of longing to be delivered from his body of death (Ro 7:24). Paul had every reason to believe that when he died he would go to be with the Lord, for the Lord tells us in Joh 14:2-3 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

The Lord went to the Father in heaven, and promised before He left us that He went there to prepare a place for us, and that He willl come again to receive us to Himself in heaven where He is with the Father. Christ assures us that because He lives, we too shall live also, and whosoever lives and believes in Christ shall never die. What does Christ mean since our bodies grow old and die? The life He is speaking of can only be the spiritual life we received when we were born again by the Spirit.

Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

What does all of this have to do with David not ascending into heaven? David could not ascend into heaven until after Christ was born, lived a perfect, sinless life, was crucified, dead and buried. Christ must descend into the lower parts of the earth (the grave/hell; place of the faithful dead), and be bodily resurrected from death and the grave, making a show of them, that they could not hold either Him or those who died in faith waiting for fulfillment of the promise of His coming.

Since the NT tells us that all who die in Christ since the cross will be with Him in heaven, are we to believe that Christ left those OT saints, like David, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph etc., all who died in faith looking for the promise, in the grave? When Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth to set the captives free, these OT saints were certainly included in the resurrection spiritually, and will be bodily resurrected in the fullness of time.



Care to look at things from my view a bit more after reading these two differences?

If you can show me how I have erred in my understanding of Scripture, then please do. I certainly don't claim to hold all truth. I look forward to our on-going discussion.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 07:09 PM
Butch it says, "when He ascended upon high, He led captivity captive." This is setting free all who are held in bondage to Satan, sin and death/grave. The OT saints went with Christ into heaven just as everyone who dies in Christ now goes to be with the Lord. They could not go there until Christ defeated Satan and death/grave. Once He did this why would the OT saints still be held in bondage to death and the grave since every NT saint goes immediately upon death to the Lord?



Paul can't make it much clearer. "When He ascended upon high, He led captivity captive." We are all held in captivity of Satan, sin and death until we are set free in Christ. Once we are set free, we become the spoils of war for Christ. He is the Victor, and we are now held captive by Him.



I agree with Clement of Rome. Those OT saints upon death possess a place among the Godly; i.e. Abraham's bosom, and when Christ comes and defeats Satan and death/grave/hell they, like the NT saints who die in faith, will be spiritually resurrected to be with the Lord.



What's the difference between those who now possess a place among the Godly and those who die in unbelief?

Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[/font][/color]

Yes, Samuel died in faith and went into that part of the grave called Abraham's bosom. Very clearly, since the woman was able to bring Samuel up, he was not among the deceased who shall not live because they are deceased, they shall not rise and the memory of them is made to perish. [/left]




Of course it appears they are in the earth. Very clearly before Christ ascended into heaven He first descended into the lower parts of the earth (Eph 4:9) to set the captives free. He did not set free those who die in unbelief, who are remembered no more. [/left]



This does not affirm that David's spirit had not ascended to heaven, but that he had not been exalted in the heavens in the sense in which Peter was speaking of the Messiah. Christ had been bodily resurrected, but David would not be resurrected bodily until the end of time. Since Pentecost marks the beginning of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, even though David has been a long time waiting, he too was spiritually resurrected to heaven when Christ led captivity captive.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

You are not dealing with the issue, Clement said that these things were so in his day which was after Christ died and rose. In other words people were still going to hades and Abraham's bosom after the resurrection, that is what Clement is saying. That is what the early church also said.

You have no Scripture that supports you claim that we go to heaven, you are forcing that interpretation on the text.

Also concerning David, it is rather redundant for Peter to say that David is dead and buried and his sepulcher is with us, and then say that David is not ascended in to heaven if both statements were a reference to his body. Peter clearly states His body in on earth, then he says David has not ascended into heaven

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 07:13 PM
Yes they were slain for the Word. Notice the verse in Rev 6 says, "they were slain for the Word of God and the testimony they held." No mention of Jesus. Compare that to Rev 20:4 that says, "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God". The souls in Rev 6 are under the altar, but the souls in Rev 20 are in heaven.

To be under the altar means to be under Christ or under His sacrifice. They were not yet in heaven, because Christ had not yet come, and gone there to prepare a place for them. Saying they are "under the altar" is akin to saying they are in Abraham's bosom, or already safe in Christ, under His sacrificial offering. The reason there is no mention of Christ in Rev 6 I believe is because this is a picture of the OT saints, who have died in faith waiting in Abraham's bosom for the promise of His coming. But in Rev 20:4 it speaks of not only those martyred before the cross, but also those martyred after the cross, or after His coming. They could not bear witness of Jesus because He had not yet come, so they simply waited under the altar, safe in the bosom of Abraham until fulfillment of the promise of His coming.

Many Blessings,
RW

Then explain why chapter 4 on is, things that must soon be. According to John's vision, chapter 4 and following is future.

Julian
Jan 16th 2009, 07:29 PM
Hi Julian,

It's not a partial spiritual resurrection. When we are given new life in Christ; spiritual life, that spiritual awakening is full or complete. It is because we have been given this spiritual life when we were born again by the Spirit that we can go to be with the Lord when we die physically (Jo 3:3-8). But the resurrection of our bodies, being re-united with our spirit will not happen until Christ comes again, changing our mortal bodies of death and corruption into immortality and incorruptible. It is then, in the fullness of time that our resurrection will be completely realized because we will be clothed with both a spirit and body once again.



Julian, I believe we must seek to understand this in light of the New Testament teaching. Very clearly David did not ascend into heaven when he died. The passage plainly tells us he was buried and his sepulchre was still visible though David had died many years ago.

But don't we also read Paul in the NT telling us "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord"? (2Co 5:8) Also in Ph 1:20-24 we read: "According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."

There is little doubt in my mind that Paul longed for that time when he would be with the Lord when he died. In another place Paul spoke of longing to be delivered from his body of death (Ro 7:24). Paul had every reason to believe that when he died he would go to be with the Lord, for the Lord tells us in Joh 14:2-3 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

The Lord went to the Father in heaven, and promised before He left us that He went there to prepare a place for us, and that He willl come again to receive us to Himself in heaven where He is with the Father. Christ assures us that because He lives, we too shall live also, and whosoever lives and believes in Christ shall never die. What does Christ mean since our bodies grow old and die? The life He is speaking of can only be the spiritual life we received when we were born again by the Spirit.

Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

What does all of this have to do with David not ascending into heaven? David could not ascend into heaven until after Christ was born, lived a perfect, sinless life, was crucified, dead and buried. Christ must descend into the lower parts of the earth (the grave/hell; place of the faithful dead), and be bodily resurrected from death and the grave, making a show of them, that they could not hold either Him or those who died in faith waiting for fulfillment of the promise of His coming.

Since the NT tells us that all who die in Christ since the cross will be with Him in heaven, are we to believe that Christ left those OT saints, like David, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph etc., all who died in faith looking for the promise, in the grave? When Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth to set the captives free, these OT saints were certainly included in the resurrection spiritually, and will be bodily resurrected in the fullness of time.



If you can show me how I have erred in my understanding of Scripture, then please do. I certainly don't claim to hold all truth. I look forward to our on-going discussion.

Many Blessings,
RW
In short: David IS ascended into the heavens?

I thought he was waiting the resurrection of the dead. Death doesn't appear to be much of an enemy any more if all these people are already in heaven alive. I realize we are made alive in Christ - and have a hope - but many still die and sleep in Christ. There is not really any sleeping in Christ if they are really alive in heaven instead of dead in the grave. Maybe the difference is splitting up man into one part dead and one part alive after their eartly death. I've always thought that someone is either alive or dead, not both (my consciousness). I don't think I'd have the power when I'm dead and in the grave to remember things. But if there are people alive in heaven now that have died, then they would have the power to remember things.

It seems like rationalizing things rather than keeping with the simplicity that 'David is not ascended into heaven' or that we shall be made alive 'at his coming' instead of before...

I'm also still hung up on the 'partial resurrection' when no scripture says that.

I guess we don't see those scriptures in the same light, so I'm confused as to the overall picture you hold.

threebigrocks
Jan 16th 2009, 07:34 PM
All of this can be understood by understanding what we have now in Christ and what we will have through the promise. Simple as that.

Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

1 Peter 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



Now - we have been blessed with every blessing spiritually.


We wait and hope for the resurrection of the dead which is our bodies. That is when we obtain our inheritance, our salvation complete. Now it is only through faith, redeemed spiritually. Then it will be full, body and spirit.


Ephesians 2

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

When is "then"?


Philippians 3
9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



Romans 8
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?


Then is at the time of our own resurrection from the dead. Just as Christ was resurrected, so will we. For those who are His now through faith, we will be fully redeemed both body and spirit.

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 07:43 PM
Then explain why chapter 4 on is, things that must soon be. According to John's vision, chapter 4 and following is future.

John is told to write of things that he has already seen, things that are (present tense) and things which shall be. The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ speaks of all of redemptive history, not only that which happens from the cross forward.

Re 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

If all of the Revelation from chapter 4 following is future, how do you explain the birth of Christ and the beginning of the New Testament church in history as described in Rev 12? The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ encompasses all of human history. It is a mistake many make to assume it is reference only to end time events.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 07:47 PM
In short: David IS ascended into the heavens?

I thought he was waiting the resurrection of the dead. Death doesn't appear to be much of an enemy any more if all these people are already in heaven alive. I realize we are made alive in Christ - and have a hope - but many still die and sleep in Christ. There is not really any sleeping in Christ if they are really alive in heaven instead of dead in the grave. Maybe the difference is splitting up man into one part dead and one part alive after their eartly death. I've always thought that someone is either alive or dead, not both (my consciousness). I don't think I'd have the power when I'm dead and in the grave to remember things. But if there are people alive in heaven now that have died, then they would have the power to remember things.

It seems like rationalizing things rather than keeping with the simplicity that 'David is not ascended into heaven' or that we shall be made alive 'at his coming' instead of before...

I'm also still hung up on the 'partial resurrection' when no scripture says that.

I guess we don't see those scriptures in the same light, so I'm confused as to the overall picture you hold.

Julian,

Also notice that Peter says, David "is" not, present tense, at the time Peter made the statement. If David had been in Abraham's bosom and then Gone to heaven when Christ resurrected, Peter would not have said David "is" not ascended.

One problem is that people don't take into account how the Jews understood death, it was understood by them, that when they died they went to hades, either to Abraham's bosom or the place of torment.

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 07:55 PM
John is told to write of things that he has already seen, things that are (present tense) and things which shall be. The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ speaks of all of redemptive history, not only that which happens from the cross forward.

Re 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

If all of the Revelation from chapter 4 following is future, how do you explain the birth of Christ and the beginning of the New Testament church in history as described in Rev 12? The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ encompasses all of human history. It is a mistake many make to assume it is reference only to end time events.

Many Blessings,
RW

That is your interpretation vs. a clear statement from John, He said and the things that shall be hereafter.

Are you saying then that the events of chapters 8 and 9 have already taken place?

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 08:08 PM
Julian,

Also notice that Peter says, David "is" not, present tense, at the time Peter made the statement. If David had been in Abraham's bosom and then Gone to heaven when Christ resurrected, Peter would not have said David "is" not ascended.

One problem is that people don't take into account how the Jews understood death, it was understood by them, that when they died they went to hades, either to Abraham's bosom or the place of torment.

But what part of David is still in the grave? Is he not included among the captivity set free in Christ when Christ defeated Satan and death, and led captivity captive? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord...but not for OT saints who died in faith waiting for the promise?

Many Blessings,
RW

threebigrocks
Jan 16th 2009, 08:19 PM
The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ encompasses all of human history. It is a mistake many make to assume it is reference only to end time events.

Many Blessings,
RW

The book of Revelation is just that - revelation given to Christ who in turn shared with John. It is the time and plan of redemption OF the entire history of the world. Chapter 12 shows an overview of the history of God's people, and where Israel is at the time the things written about will happen. That last verse - show persecution of the saints, trials, tribulations, war for those who follow Christ and keep His commands because they love Him.

This entire topic has the foundation in the basics of the faith. Why is this so difficult everyone? :(

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 10:05 PM
But what part of David is still in the grave? Is he not included among the captivity set free in Christ when Christ defeated Satan and death, and led captivity captive? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord...but not for OT saints who died in faith waiting for the promise?

Many Blessings,
RW

You are assuming the phrase led captivity captive means that Christ took them to heaven, however, Scripture does not state this. Also Paul did not say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, He said I am willing rather to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. But that does say heaven.

divaD
Jan 16th 2009, 10:53 PM
1 Cor 15:52-56 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Death will be swallowed up in victory when the mortals living in Christ shall have put on immortality.



OK. Good point. But if you reread my post I was referring to death being destroyed once and for all.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Perhaps I'm wrong, but it appears to me that verse 26 would happen at the white throne judgment in Rev 20. If you read the rest of this passage, this seems to agree with Christ's literal earthly millenial reign. Because it is after that millenial reign that death is destroyed forever.

Debra R
Jan 17th 2009, 12:46 AM
Let's try it from this angle.

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(Joh 11:24-26)

Julian, do you believe this?


I believe it! :pp
Those were the first verses that came to mind as I was reading this thread. :) That also made me think of this one too....

John 12:26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

Blessings :hug:

Vhayes
Jan 17th 2009, 05:11 AM
II Corinthians 5
8 - we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

what is "absent" from the body? It's a given SOMETHING has to be.
V