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abidinglife
Jan 14th 2009, 09:24 AM
Well to jump into it straight away, i am confoundwed by what i was told by this person...:

"the concepts of right and wrong are purely artificial, invented by humans. The only truth is in opinion, and of course there is no right or wrong opinion either."

idk, i've never been stopped in my tracks by some so atheist. Such a blatant denial of truth. I don't know what to say, i have asked the question:

If it was in my OPINION that you didn't really need hands. And i decided to come to your house and chop them off...Would that be right, as it is my opinion that your hands aren't being very productive.??

idk, you guys could think up of something better...?

Also, i am having a hard time defending the actions of David when he went and obliterated the Geshurites in Samuel 27:8-9:

"And David and his men went up, and invaded the Geshurites, and the Gezrites, and the Amalekites ... And David smote the land, and left neither man nor woman alive, and took away the sheep, and the oxen, and the asses, and the camels, and the apparel. And David saved neither man nor woman alive"

So their argument is does this condone genocide...? Well, i know it doesn't but...idk =S

I know all the answers but i just cannot put them on paper for some reason. So what i need is some help. haha, cheers.

Romber
Jan 14th 2009, 11:43 AM
Hey, I don't have time now (but I will in a couple hours) to answer your question. I can say that an atheist denying good in bad really admit there is a God. I will explain in a bit.

Romber
Jan 14th 2009, 06:44 PM
Psalms 14:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=14&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)- " The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good."

Psalms 53:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=53&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)- " The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good."

Proverbs 18:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=18&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)-" A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions."

1 Corinthians 2:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=3&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)-"Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise."

Your "friend" is what the bible predicted; a fool. His outright denial of good is absolute comedy. How can you deny what is good and bad? If there is no such thing as good and bad, then why are their laws? Why must you face a consequence if you violate a law? And depending on what you did, you may even lose your life for it. Your friend is correct in one sense though. It is a matter of opinion of what is right or wrong. But the even bigger question which stems from that is who's opinion of right or wrong do we follow? It must be universal opinion because murder is condemned in every culture. Along with stealing and lying, bearing false witness, and coveting stuff that isn't yours. Sound familiar? It should, because these are from the Ten Commandments. This is just a small bit that makes people moral. It is those commandments that tell people what they should and shouldn't do. Funny how we keep all those commandments today still. Granted they aren't so simple anymore but at the core they are the exact same thing. God gave Moses these commandments when Moses was in the desert on Mt. Sinai. God is the singular opinion we listen to in deciding wrong from right.

I am sure your friend has come to the fact that there can't be a God. If there is a God, there would be morals. Since morals have been established long ago, the Atheist must outright deny such a thing. Richard Dawkins popularized this belief. Belief in morals in no God is a very contradictory thing to say. The only option was to deny morals (as believing there is a God is a no-no). Ask your friend these simple questions: Do you believe there is good? He will answer yes. No matter whos opinion he goes by, something must be seen as good. Then ask: If there is good, there must be evil? Again, he will be forced to answer yes. How can there be good without evil? The term good can't exist without the other as absolute good is the absence of evil and absolute evil the absence of good. Then ask: So if there is a distinction between Good and Evil, then there must be a moral law The answer is yes. It is impossible to define what is good if there is nothing to compare it to. If there is no moral law, how can one be bad? The final blow, If there is a moral law, then there must be a moral law giver By their own admission he has admitted there is a God. A God who gave out his laws long ago, who set the foundations of morality when he carefully and beautifully created all you see. Morality is not some mere invention of Humans like the wheel is. It is a very precious gift God gave to us!


Also, i am having a hard time defending the actions of David when he went and obliterated the Geshurites in Samuel 27:8-9:

In all cases where the bible is under attack, the best thing to do is read the context of the chapter. This often solves many, many problems people "seem" to have discovered.

The context of 1 Samuel 27 is David runs from Saul so he will not be chased after. He then finds a city to live in and settles down. While he lives there, he does some raiding on the surrounding nations and his reasoning is to keep them from telling Saul about his location.

First of all I would like to point out that God is righteous (Ezra 9:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=15&chapter=9&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)) Whatever he does is done for a reason. It may not be very clear from the context why he does it, but we might have an idea from a historic reconstruction of the time. Also, you must remember that you may not understand everything because God's ways are his and his thoughts are his-both of which transcend ours. (Isaiah 55:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2055:8-9;&version=31;)). Since everything is his creation he can do as he pleases. If this means destroying a culture completely, so be it. But remember God will not do so without a reason that is righteous.

What we know about David is that Jesus came through his family line. This being established, it is safe to say that David is a very important character in the Bible. If he was to die, what do you think would happen? God provided for him (a place to stay far away from Saul) and a means to keep him safe (exterminate his enemies from the area). David is very important, and anyone who threatened that would put much at jeopardy.

It is also interesting to note the people have been living there since ancient times. Every culture, outside the Hebrew nation, turned to polytheistic paganism relatively quick after the flood. They knew exactly what happened, but insisted on worshiping other Gods and denying God's existence(sounds like today). They have been in perpetual sin and defiance of God since literally day 1. Does God deserve to be mocked? Didn't these people know what they were doing was quite defiant? Did they have any desire to repent? No, they were on a downward spiral. It didn't matter if they died of old age, or of David killing them-they were all destined for hell in the end.

Athanasius
Jan 14th 2009, 07:25 PM
Well to jump into it straight away, i am confoundwed by what i was told by this person...:

"the concepts of right and wrong are purely artificial, invented by humans. The only truth is in opinion, and of course there is no right or wrong opinion either."

I would ask him if that's the truth, or if that's their opinion. Is it these same people giving you difficulty with David? If they are, well, then they really don't have anything to stand on, they've undermined themselves. So David "obliterated" some people, that's only their opinion.

Of course you can't leave things there, but that's where I would start.

abidinglife
Jan 14th 2009, 11:09 PM
^^LOL. that's quite funny.

I don't know i'm getting really frustrated...to give some more context...this occurs on facebook after i posted a really long note on why bad things occur in the world. And i am 16 and these guys are my friends and they are about my age, but yeah, they are so deeply rooted in atheism...it is scary.

Hey thanks, Romber, i was reading that passage multiple times last night, and i don't actually support what David did. As you said he was in a backslidden state so as to seek refuge with the Philistines. And notice that after that he returned to Achish...so i don't support what he did as such...what do you think? But it's kinda irrelevant cause i knkow he will bring up things like the Levites in Numbers, and the killing of young ones in Psalms...oh my gosh, athieist get really predictable after a while.

And hey thanks for those verses, i'll put them on.

Oh yeah i don't know if you are allowed to do this bt you could add me on facebook and read it for yourself...my name is <PM me for name>. Cheers.

Athanasius
Jan 15th 2009, 12:08 AM
^^LOL. that's quite funny.

It's also quite serious as an answer. You can see how their position is untenable.

Romber
Jan 15th 2009, 03:15 AM
Hey thanks, Romber, i was reading that passage multiple times last night, and i don't actually support what David did. As you said he was in a backslidden state so as to seek refuge with the Philistines. And notice that after that he returned to Achish...so i don't support what he did as such...what do you think? But it's kinda irrelevant cause i knkow he will bring up things like the Levites in Numbers, and the killing of young ones in Psalms...oh my gosh, athieist get really predictable after a while.



I don't necessarily like how David completely destroyed the nation, but then again, I am almost certain there hearts were hardened to the point where there was no hope. Remember pharoah from the story of joseph? His heart was hardened to the point of no return. I guess the nation David destroyed was destined for hell regardless of what people did. Of course Atheists will just jump all over this simply because they will refuse to look at it without a heavy bias.