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reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 03:45 PM
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.









If those in Hebrews 6 are born again, then following the logic of the passage, we must conclude that those who fall away cannot repent.



Most people who believe we can fall away will agree that if that backslider/prodigal will repent, he will be restored. But here it clearly says it is impossible to renew them to repentance.



If that is true, then it is possible that there are ex-born again belivers walking around on this Earth who want to go to heaven and repent but God wont let them? While pedophiles, murderers and thieves still have the door open to them?



Just for the record, it is my position that Hebrews 6 does not describe a truly born again believer, however if you agree that it is indeed a true believer, do you also agree that a true believer cannot repent from a fallen state if they wanted? For example, if i renounce my faith today and do some sin, and fall away, and then tommorow i wake up like the prodigal and say: "i am wasting my life. I have forsaken Jesus and have fallen away like a fool. Now i need to repent", are you saying that God will say: "sorry son, doors closed your oppurtunity is lost go to hell? lol


Again this is not an argument on whether they are true believers, i am assuming as a given that they are for the sake of the argument. The point of this thread is to discuss the impossibility of repentance for those who have fallen

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 03:56 PM
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.









If those in Hebrews 6 are born again, then following the logic of the passage, we must conclude that those who fall away cannot repent.



Most people who believe we can fall away will agree that if that backslider/prodigal will repent, he will be restored. But here it clearly says it is impossible to renew them to repentance.



If that is true, then it is possible that there are ex-born again belivers walking around on this Earth who want to go to heaven and repent but God wont let them? While pedophiles, murderers and thieves still have the door open to them?



Just for the record, it is my position that Hebrews 6 does not describe a truly born again believer, however if you agree that it is indeed a true believer, do you also agree that a true believer cannot repent from a fallen state if they wanted? For example, if i renounce my faith today and do some sin, and fall away, and then tommorow i wake up like the prodigal and say: "i am wasting my life. I have forsaken Jesus and have fallen away like a fool. Now i need to repent", are you saying that God will say: "sorry son, doors closed your oppurtunity is lost go to hell? lol


Again this is not an argument on whether they are true believers, i am assuming as a given that they are for the sake of the argument. The point of this thread is to discuss the impossibility of repentance for those who have fallen
The prodigal didn't say that though so what do you think is the difference between the prodigal and what this passage is saying?

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:00 PM
The prodigal didn't say that though so what do you think is the difference between the prodigal and what this passage is saying?
Greetings ProjectPeter

i am just trying to follow through with this if those in Hebrews 6 are truly born again. When they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. I am trying to see if those who agree this is a true beliver in Hebrews 6 also agree that those who have fallen cannot repent

VerticalReality
Jan 14th 2009, 04:11 PM
Greetings ProjectPeter

i am just trying to follow through with this if those in Hebrews 6 are truly born again. When they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. I am trying to see if those who agree this is a true beliver in Hebrews 6 also agree that those who have fallen cannot repent

Yes, I believe those who truly fall away and are apostate cannot be renewed to repentance. However, I do not believe someone "falling away" is just someone falling into sin for a time. A person who has fallen into sin can be brought to repentance. There are plenty of Scriptures about correcting brothers/sisters who are sinning. However, someone who has fallen away from the faith or is apostate is one who is rejecting or betraying Jesus all together. This type is a son of perdition like Judas.

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 04:11 PM
Greetings ProjectPeter

i am just trying to follow through with this if those in Hebrews 6 are truly born again. When they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. I am trying to see if those who agree this is a true beliver in Hebrews 6 also agree that those who have fallen cannot repent
A) I believe this is a true believer.

B) I believe this is somebody who has more than the basic true believer--that they have tasted the promise to come, i.e., those like Thomas who have seen and believed, not those of us who have not seen and who have believed.

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 04:12 PM
Yes, I believe those who truly fall away and are apostate cannot be renewed to repentance. However, I do not believe someone "falling away" is just someone falling into sin for a time. A person who has fallen into sin can be brought to repentance. There are plenty of Scriptures about correcting brothers/sisters who are sinning. However, someone who has fallen away from the faith or is apostate is one who is rejecting or betraying Jesus all together. This type is a son of perdition like Judas.
James 5
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

One of those scriptures you mention ... just for reference! :)

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:13 PM
A) I believe this is a true believer.

B) I believe this is somebody who has more than the basic true believer--that they have tasted the promise to come, i.e., those like Thomas who have seen and believed, not those of us who have not seen and who have believed.

so you believe that if they become apostate, and then later wish to repent, it will be impossible to do so?

VerticalReality
Jan 14th 2009, 04:14 PM
James 5
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

One of those scriptures you mention ... just for reference! :)

Thank you . . .

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:15 PM
Yes, I believe those who truly fall away and are apostate cannot be renewed to repentance. However, I do not believe someone "falling away" is just someone falling into sin for a time. A person who has fallen into sin can be brought to repentance. There are plenty of Scriptures about correcting brothers/sisters who are sinning. However, someone who has fallen away from the faith or is apostate is one who is rejecting or betraying Jesus all together. This type is a son of perdition like Judas.


yes i am refferring to an apostate. If someone is apostate but then later is brought to see their error by good Christian friends, even if they want to repent it will be impossible?

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 04:16 PM
A) I believe this is a true believer.

B) I believe this is somebody who has more than the basic true believer--that they have tasted the promise to come, i.e., those like Thomas who have seen and believed, not those of us who have not seen and who have believed.
Right... go back to chapter five and see why the warning was given to these specific people.

Hebrews 5:11 *¶Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 *For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 *For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
14 *But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 *Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 *of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 *And this we shall do, if God permits.


Press on to maturity... these guys were going backwards. The writer speaks again of it in the 10th chapter.

Hebrews 10:26 *¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 *but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 *Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 *How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 *For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 *It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 *¶But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33 *partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
34 *For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one.
35 *Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 *For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 *FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 *BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 *But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 04:18 PM
so you believe that if they become apostate, and then later wish to repent, it will be impossible to do so?
I believe that those who saw the Son of God and His miracles and believed, and then turned on Him, were in the position of having personally rejected God. I don't believe any believers today fall into that box.

But, yes, I believe that they had no second chance.

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 04:19 PM
Right... go back to chapter five and see why the warning was given to these specific people.

Hebrews 5:11 *¶Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 *For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 *For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
14 *But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 *Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 *of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 *And this we shall do, if God permits.


Press on to maturity... these guys were going backwards. The writer speaks again of it in the 10th chapter.

Hebrews 10:26 *¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 *but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 *Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 *How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 *For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 *It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 *¶But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33 *partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
34 *For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one.
35 *Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 *For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 *FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 *BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 *But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
The all-important context! Thanks, PP!

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 04:20 PM
yes i am refferring to an apostate. If someone is apostate but then later is brought to see their error by good Christian friends, even if they want to repent it will be impossible?
We have biblical precedence for that yes.

1 Samuel 3:11 *And the LORD said to Samuel, "Behold, I am about to do a thing in Israel at which both ears of everyone who hears it will tingle.
12 *"In that day I will carry out against Eli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end.
13 *"For I have told him that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke them.
14 *"And therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever."


Even in the book of Hebrews it gives us an example.

Hebrews 12:15 *See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
16 *that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
17 *For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:20 PM
I believe that those who saw the Son of God and His miracles and believed, and then turned on Him, were in the position of having personally rejected God. I don't believe any believers today fall into that box.

But, yes, I believe that they had no second chance.

i see i see.... so you believe that no believer can become apostate today?

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 04:24 PM
i see i see.... so you believe that no believer can become apostate today?
I think a believer can become apostate today; however, we are those who Jesus said 'have not seen, and yet believe.' (have not tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come)

So I believe that there is hope for repentance for us.

Not to take away from the danger of back-sliding...

21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Hear that? Better to be AN UNBELIEVER than to know, and turn back. Better to be UNSAVED and HELL-BOUND than to find your way, and lose it.

kenrank
Jan 14th 2009, 04:28 PM
Greetings ProjectPeter

i am just trying to follow through with this if those in Hebrews 6 are truly born again. When they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. I am trying to see if those who agree this is a true beliver in Hebrews 6 also agree that those who have fallen cannot repent

This is just my personal opinion of that verse. I struggled with it for over a year having my church start as a Southern Baptist.

The individual in Hebrew 6 has:

1. Been enlightened (Greek photizo from which we get photo. It means to light or make see) So this person would have had light shined upon darkness. Light is often used for knowledge or understanding, so this person had saving knowledge.

2. Tasted the heavenly gift- I "imagine" this is salvation. While there are many heavenly gifts, this one in context with the rest of this scripture would seem to be life over death.

3. Was a "partaker" of the Holy Ghost- I don't think there is much room for error on this one, partaker is the Greek met'ohkos, and means to participate, to have a share of. This individual had some measure of the Spirit of God in them.

4. Tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come- The Greek word for tasted is defined as taste, by implication to eat. So it would seem to be an internalizing, an understanding, of the Word of God and his powers.

Again, this is my personal opinion, but it would seem this individual was a member of the household of God.

Consider with this verse the following, it would "seem" to be declaring the same mindset:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Peace.
Ken

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:32 PM
I think a believer can become apostate today; however, we are those who Jesus said 'have not seen, and yet believe.' (have not tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come)

So I believe that there is hope for repentance for us.

Not to take away from the danger of back-sliding...

21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Hear that? Better to be AN UNBELIEVER than to know, and turn back. Better to be UNSAVED and HELL-BOUND than to find your way, and lose it.

ok i think i understand a bit better where you are coming from. You beleive that those that have tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Spirit, only applies to the people who were alive during the times of Jesus?

so us modern day believers have not tasted the gift, become partakers, etc?

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 04:34 PM
ok i think i understand a bit better where you are coming from. You beleive that those that have tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Spirit, only applies to the people who were alive during the times of Jesus?

so us modern day believers have not tasted the gift, become partakers, etc?
I don't think so. Keep in mind that by the time Hebrews was written... many of the people reading it would not have seen Jesus. So no... it is just as applicable today as was then.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 04:35 PM
I got it!

It IS a true believer.

It is impossible to renew them to repentance.

Repentance, being a gift from God is irrevocable. He won't give it, take it away, and then give it again. It is impossible to be renewed to repentance for once you have the gift of repentance, you will not receive it again.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:36 PM
This is just my personal opinion of that verse. I struggled with it for over a year having my church start as a Southern Baptist.

The individual in Hebrew 6 has:

1. Been enlightened (Greek photizo from which we get photo. It means to light or make see) So this person would have had light shined upon darkness. Light is often used for knowledge or understanding, so this person had saving knowledge.

2. Tasted the heavenly gift- I "imagine" this is salvation. While there are many heavenly gifts, this one in context with the rest of this scripture would seem to be life over death.

3. Was a "partaker" of the Holy Ghost- I don't think there is much room for error on this one, partaker is the Greek met'ohkos, and means to participate, to have a share of. This individual had some measure of the Spirit of God in them.

4. Tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come- The Greek word for tasted is defined as taste, by implication to eat. So it would seem to be an internalizing, an understanding, of the Word of God and his powers.

Again, this is my personal opinion, but it would seem this individual was a member of the household of God.

Consider with this verse the following, it would "seem" to be declaring the same mindset:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Peace.
Ken

i think the biggest source of confusion is on the phrase partakers of the Spirit. When i read this i read it just as it says: they shared in the Spirit, were ministered to by the Spirit, but it doesnt say the Spirit was in them, so it is my interpretation that partakers simply means they have share in the blessings of the Spirit, perhaps healing or witnessing a miracle or even feeling His conviction. But there is a HUGE difference between being a partaker and being indwelled. I understand how some can see this to mean that they are indeed born again. For the sake of this discussion i am assuming the position that they are indeed born again. So my question was basically, if they are truly born again, doesnt it also mean that it is impossible for them to repent from falling away? acording to this passage?

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 04:38 PM
ok i think i understand a bit better where you are coming from. You beleive that those that have tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Spirit, only applies to the people who were alive during the times of Jesus?

so us modern day believers have not tasted the gift, become partakers, etc?
Not to disagree too sharply with kenrank... but, yeah, I don't think any of us hear have tasted (that connontation of having eaten of, consumed, ingested) that heavenly age to come. I don't think we've seen a part of heaven the way that those who were here did.

As PP pointed out...


Hebrews 12:15 *See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
16 *that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
17 *For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

There ARE people who can't get forgiveness, who have gone beyond God's patience.

And if rejecting His Son after having seen the power while He was alive isn't as bad as what Esau did... if that isn't straining the very bounds of God's patience... I dunno.

I do worry that it is possible for a believer to go too far and harden their own spirit; but I don't think every backslider is doomed with no hope of repentance today.

As VR noted; it tells us we can turn a sinning brother back, and SAVE THEIR SOUL.

(sorry to shout so much, but I love that...)

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:38 PM
I don't think so. Keep in mind that by the time Hebrews was written... many of the people reading it would not have seen Jesus. So no... it is just as applicable today as was then.

so, if it is possible for true believers to fall away, you also agree with the verse that says it is impossible to renew them to repentance right?

so it is possible for a true Christian to fall away, or apostasize or reject Christ or however it may be described, and then never be able to repent again even if they wanted to?

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 04:40 PM
I don't think so. Keep in mind that by the time Hebrews was written... many of the people reading it would not have seen Jesus. So no... it is just as applicable today as was then.
Yeah... but I wasn't being totally forthcoming because I didn't want to start the side arguement about the Power the Apostles had ... and the end I see to that. Because I know that we're going to come down on a sharp divide on that point right there when I say there was an end to prophecy, healings, etc.

:)

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:40 PM
Not to disagree too sharply with kenrank... but, yeah, I don't think any of us hear have tasted (that connontation of having eaten of, consumed, ingested) that heavenly age to come. I don't think we've seen a part of heaven the way that those who were here did.

As PP pointed out...


Hebrews 12:15 *See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
16 *that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
17 *For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

There ARE people who can't get forgiveness, who have gone beyond God's patience.

And if rejecting His Son after having seen the power while He was alive isn't as bad as what Esau did... if that isn't straining the very bounds of God's patience... I dunno.

I do worry that it is possible for a believer to go too far and harden their own spirit; but I don't think every backslider is doomed with no hope of repentance today.

As VR noted; it tells us we can turn a sinning brother back, and SAVE THEIR SOUL.

(sorry to shout so much, but I love that...)

so you believe there are people in the world right now that we should not share the gospel with because they have already used up Gods patience for them?

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 04:42 PM
so you believe there are people in the world right now that we should not share the gospel with because they have already used up Gods patience for them?
I believe there may be such people here; but I can't tell the difference between them and somebody who can be saved, just as I can't tell an unbeliever with a hardened heart from one with a heart tender and close to repentance. So it is not mine to withhold anything; freely I was give, so freely I must give.

EDIT: (aside from pearls before swine, of course)

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:45 PM
I believe there may be such people here; but I can't tell the difference between them and somebody who can be saved, just as I can't tell an unbeliever with a hardened heart from one with a heart tender and close to repentance. So it is not mine to withhold anything; freely I was give, so freely I must give.

EDIT: (aside from pearls before swine, of course)


so you do agree at least that there are people in the world today who couldnt recieve forgiveness from God even if they wanted to, because they have "used up" Gods patience.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 04:49 PM
so, if it is possible for true believers to fall away, you also agree with the verse that says it is impossible to renew them to repentance right?

so it is possible for a true Christian to fall away, or apostasize or reject Christ or however it may be described, and then never be able to repent again even if they wanted to?That is what it says... yes.

kenrank
Jan 14th 2009, 04:49 PM
i think the biggest source of confusion is on the phrase partakers of the Spirit. When i read this i read it just as it says: they shared in the Spirit, were ministered to by the Spirit, but it doesnt say the Spirit was in them, so it is my interpretation that partakers simply means they have share in the blessings of the Spirit, perhaps healing or witnessing a miracle or even feeling His conviction. But there is a HUGE difference between being a partaker and being indwelled. I understand how some can see this to mean that they are indeed born again. For the sake of this discussion i am assuming the position that they are indeed born again. So my question was basically, if they are truly born again, doesnt it also mean that it is impossible for them to repent from falling away? acording to this passage?

I admit, that is a possibility. Here it is from the Strong's, the word translated as partaker:

G3353
μέτοχος
metochos
met'-okh-os
From G3348; participant, that is, (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate: - fellow, partaker, partner.

Participant, sharer, an associate, fellow, partner....."I think" this is more than just witnessing a miracle, it seems more than that. Plus, "having tasted the Word of God and the powers of the world to come" seems more in line with witnessing a miracle. Again, that's my take.

Peace.
Ken

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 04:49 PM
so you do agree at least that there are people in the world today who couldnt recieve forgiveness from God even if they wanted to, because they have "used up" Gods patience.
I used the word 'may' for a reason.

I believe God's love is endless, and that He's unwilling that any should perish; His goal is that ALL should come to repentance.

If a person is beyond that repentance, it's because they would rather be there. You don't get there because you struggle with sin, or because you slipped and fell. You don't even get there because for a time you fell into a worse sin than before and were enmired. I've known people who fell hard, and then got back up when God called to them again. I personally know many second-chance stories. I AM a second-chance story.

...hope that makes things a little bit clearer.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 04:50 PM
Yeah... but I wasn't being totally forthcoming because I didn't want to start the side arguement about the Power the Apostles had ... and the end I see to that. Because I know that we're going to come down on a sharp divide on that point right there when I say there was an end to prophecy, healings, etc.

:)Yeah I hear you... but me being me... had it to say. ;)

kenrank
Jan 14th 2009, 04:54 PM
I got it!

It IS a true believer.

It is impossible to renew them to repentance.

Repentance, being a gift from God is irrevocable. He won't give it, take it away, and then give it again. It is impossible to be renewed to repentance for once you have the gift of repentance, you will not receive it again.

Repentence isn't a gift from God, it is an action taken by one who believes.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Yahushua was preaching (expounding, telling) those to repent. He was telling us to turn away from ungodliness and to righteousness. This is an action which we take, the result from which comes the real "gift" from God, life.

Peace.
Ken

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 04:54 PM
I used the word 'may' for a reason.

I believe God's love is endless, and that He's unwilling that any should perish; His goal is that ALL should come to repentance.

If a person is beyond that repentance, it's because they would rather be there. You don't get there because you struggle with sin, or because you slipped and fell. You don't even get there because for a time you fell into a worse sin than before and were enmired. I've known people who fell hard, and then got back up when God called to them again. I personally know many second-chance stories. I AM a second-chance story.

...hope that makes things a little bit clearer.

this does make it clearer, however i still have not gotten a definite YES to the "impossible to renewethem to repentance". it seems that there is a caution to proclaim this if they were truly born again. It seems that most would agree that even the most low down backbiting "ex-Christian" could still repent if they wanted to right?

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 04:59 PM
this does make it clearer, however i still have not gotten a definite YES to the "impossible to renewethem to repentance". it seems that there is a caution to proclaim this if they were truly born again. It seems that most would agree that even the most low down backbiting "ex-Christian" could still repent if they wanted to right?
You've gotten several "yes" responses with the clarification that it isn't just talking about Joe Schmucky the average pew sitting Christian.

Example... had Paul turned back near the end of his life... he'd of been toast. That make it more clear?

Example... were I ever to fall back totally away from God... I'd be toast. Not equating myself to Paul so folks don't even go there. Just making the point that there is a certain maturity level where there is no turning back... without a very large price.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 05:00 PM
That is what it says... yes.

this is very interesting. So if i apostasize today i can never repent again even if i wanted?

Just wanted to see if people really believed that. For the record i dont believe they are true believers in Hebrews 6, especially considering the transition in verse 9, but i just wanted to see if people actually followed thru and believed that there is some point that a Christian can reach and never return home even if he wanted.

Its sounds a little off because that would mean that if i truly apostasized last month(not just sinned but really fell away), and today i want to return to my Father, the door is closed to me, but it is open to prostitutes, murederers, and pedophiles since it is their first time going in? Does that sound correct? A willing aposatate seeking forgiveness cannot have it but anyone else can?

However if that is your interpretation then i respect it though i definetly disagree

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 05:01 PM
this is very interesting. So if i apostasize today i can never repent again even if i wanted?

Just wanted to see if people really believed that. For the record i dont believe they are true believers in Hebrews 6, especially considering the transition in verse 9, but i just wanted to see if people actually followed thru and believed that there is some point that a Christian can reach and never return home even if he wanted.

Its sounds a little off because that would mean that if i truly apostasized last month(not just sinned but really fell away), and today i want to return to my Father, the door is closed to me, but it is open to prostitutes, murederers, and pedophiles since it is their first time going in? Does that sound correct? A willing aposatate seeking forgiveness cannot have it but anyone else can?

However if that is your interpretation then i respect it though i definetly disagree
From what I have seen of your post... no. I think you still have much to learn before you would ever get to that point.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 05:03 PM
Repentence isn't a gift from God, it is an action taken by one who believes.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Yahushua was preaching (expounding, telling) those to repent. He was telling us to turn away from ungodliness and to righteousness. This is an action which we take, the result from which comes the real "gift" from God, life.

Peace.
Ken

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

It is God that grants repentance and everyone who repented at Christ's preaching were given that by God.

Steve M
Jan 14th 2009, 05:06 PM
I think PP is right. And I think, with the level of grace I've seen in my life at the young age I'm sitting at now... for me to turn back now is UNTHINKABLE. I've seen so much forgiveness of my sins, so much healing of my own heart, that if I stop to consider my own life it can literally move me to tears.

Turn back now? What an insult to the Lord who has been at work in my life!

HOWEVER: part of my hesitancy comes from what you said before.


so you believe there are people in the world right now that we should not share the gospel with because they have already used up Gods patience for them?

Unequivacol answer: NO!! I believe there may be people to whom my efforts are useless, but I can't see hearts and minds. Only God can. I can see the outside, and I've seen many people that looked utterly beyond all repentance.

I've seen them repent, too.

I CAN'T KNOW.

So it's hard for me to say 'Yes, there is a person who can't repent' because I'm afraid that will lead to less preaching to people who CAN repent.

And they're the ones who need it most.

So... theologically, in my head, yes, I beleive that there are those who have, through their own efforts, reached a place beyond forgiveness.

But I can't know who they are. I've heard stories of people--former preachers--who turned on God and fought the church--only to return later, in tears and repentance.

Do we keep them out? How can we? We can't see hearts and minds, and we are given no guidelines. In fact, God refuses to give us such guidelines. Where we see the fruits of repentance, we can only assume God is at work.

Does that make sense?

IBWatching
Jan 14th 2009, 05:07 PM
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.









If those in Hebrews 6 are born again, then following the logic of the passage, we must conclude that those who fall away cannot repent.



Most people who believe we can fall away will agree that if that backslider/prodigal will repent, he will be restored. But here it clearly says it is impossible to renew them to repentance.



If that is true, then it is possible that there are ex-born again belivers walking around on this Earth who want to go to heaven and repent but God wont let them? While pedophiles, murderers and thieves still have the door open to them?



Just for the record, it is my position that Hebrews 6 does not describe a truly born again believer, however if you agree that it is indeed a true believer, do you also agree that a true believer cannot repent from a fallen state if they wanted? For example, if i renounce my faith today and do some sin, and fall away, and then tommorow i wake up like the prodigal and say: "i am wasting my life. I have forsaken Jesus and have fallen away like a fool. Now i need to repent", are you saying that God will say: "sorry son, doors closed your oppurtunity is lost go to hell? lol


Again this is not an argument on whether they are true believers, i am assuming as a given that they are for the sake of the argument. The point of this thread is to discuss the impossibility of repentance for those who have fallen

The answer to your questions are in the words from your post which I emphasized above (Heb 6:9). These were Christians who were thinking about reverting back to Judaism. The author was simply telling them that re-repentance, which Israel did over and over in the OT doesn't work anymore. Now there is only a one time genuine repentance (as a result of Godly Sorrow) which is Granted by God and which effects His Work of Salvation (from the context...which puts Jesus Christ on the Cross for that Believer). Re-repentance is neither necessary (the author told them to leave it behind)...or possible.

Take some time to look up all the references to the Believers in Hebrews and you will see the author always used inclusive language. He never doubted their Salvation.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 05:09 PM
I think PP is right. And I think, with the level of grace I've seen in my life at the young age I'm sitting at now... for me to turn back now is UNTHINKABLE. I've seen so much forgiveness of my sins, so much healing of my own heart, that if I stop to consider my own life it can literally move me to tears.

Turn back now? What an insult to the Lord who has been at work in my life!

HOWEVER: part of my hesitancy comes from what you said before.



Unequivacol answer: NO!! I believe there may be people to whom my efforts are useless, but I can't see hearts and minds. Only God can. I can see the outside, and I've seen many people that looked utterly beyond all repentance.

I've seen them repent, too.

I CAN'T KNOW.

So it's hard for me to say 'Yes, there is a person who can't repent' because I'm afraid that will lead to less preaching to people who CAN repent.

And they're the ones who need it most.

So... theologically, in my head, yes, I beleive that there are those who have, through their own efforts, reached a place beyond forgiveness.

But I can't know who they are. I've heard stories of people--former preachers--who turned on God and fought the church--only to return later, in tears and repentance.

Do we keep them out? How can we? We can't see hearts and minds, and we are given no guidelines. In fact, God refuses to give us such guidelines. Where we see the fruits of repentance, we can only assume God is at work.

Does that make sense?
Yeah... that isn't our call to make save the Lord do the burning bush type thing and tell you NO DON'T DO THAT. So sharing the gospel isn't something we don't do just because someone says "I used to be a Christian."

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 05:09 PM
From what I have seen of your post... no. I think you still have much to learn before you would ever get to that point.

lol im not worried about myself literally i was just speaking hypothetically.

But you are indeed saying that at least in theory, there is a point where an ex-Christian cannot recieve forgiveness even if he wanted to and was sorry for falling away, but a bloody murderer can because he has never been a christian yet. At least in theory according to your interpretation. Im not here to call you wrong im just seeing if you really follow thru with that interpretation

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 05:10 PM
The answer to your questions are in the words from your post which I emphasized above (Heb 6:9). These were Christians who were thinking about reverting back to Judaism. The author was simply telling them that re-repentance, which Israel did over and over in the OT doesn't work anymore. Now there is only a one time genuine repentance (as a result of Godly Sorrow) which is Granted by God and which effects His Work of Salvation (from the context...which puts Jesus Christ on the Cross for that Believer). Re-repentance is neither necessary...or possible.

Take some time to look up all the references to the Believers in Hebrews and you will see the author always used inclusive language. He never doubted their Salvation.
You won't find in that text that they were "reverting back to Judaism." No where in the entire letter actually.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 05:11 PM
lol im not worried about myself literally i was just speaking hypothetically.

But you are indeed saying that at least in theory, there is a point where an ex-Christian cannot recieve forgiveness even if he wanted to and was sorry for falling away, but a bloody murderer can because he has never been a christian yet. At least in theory according to your interpretation. Im not here to call you wrong im just seeing if you really follow thru with that interpretation
I've said "yes" a couple of times so not sure what's getting muddled up on your end. ;)

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 05:23 PM
I've said "yes" a couple of times so not sure what's getting muddled up on your end. ;)

its just that that flies in the face of the very nature of God and the gospel. It doesnt make sense for God to be willing that all repent but then have someone willing to repent not recieve forgiveness, but if that is your interpretation it is what it is. nice chat, till next time

God Bless

tango
Jan 14th 2009, 05:24 PM
Greetings ProjectPeter

i am just trying to follow through with this if those in Hebrews 6 are truly born again. When they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. I am trying to see if those who agree this is a true beliver in Hebrews 6 also agree that those who have fallen cannot repent

Hebrews 6 is a passage that needs to be used with care.

I made a commitment to Christ aged about 18, was baptised and went out evangelising among other things. Then I turned my back on it all and went back to the occult, actively fighting any forms of organised faith.

Then more recently I realised I'd made a huge mistake and came back to God. God was clearly willing to have me back, but when I first read Hebrews 6 it left me very confused. It seemed to me that either my salvation was a lie (in which case there was no point living for God at all) or the Bible was wrong (which raised all sorts of other questions).

In the end I concluded that the interpretation of that passage was the problem, and that therefore it is possible to walk away from God but still come back.

VerticalReality
Jan 14th 2009, 05:28 PM
To put this in Old Testament terms . . .

Those who have tasted the heavenly gift and fallen are like those who have entered the promised land only to take a big fat U-turn and head on back to Egypt.

I would also agree with PP that this is something that can and does still happen today. In fact, the Word declares that the last of the last days will be full of those who are this way.

IBWatching
Jan 14th 2009, 05:30 PM
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

It is God that grants repentance and everyone who repented at Christ's preaching were given that by God.

You gave the very passages which prove that repentance isn't a "gift". It's granted. A grant is something which is requested. Jesus said that the Jewish leaders had to repent. Peter said it. Paul said it. It is a request from a person to God for a forgiveness of sins, a cleansing of the conscience. God either answers it and grants the repentance...or He doesn't. When Jesus talked about the judgment, He said about those who are lost, "I never knew you." He didn't say, "I knew you...then I didn't...then I did...then I didn't. There is no gray area here, no "limbo", no "in-between". Nor is there any such thing as "almost Saved" or "had been Saved". Salvation is eternal or it isn't Salvation from God. You are either Saved...or you are not.

kenrank
Jan 14th 2009, 05:42 PM
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

It is God that grants repentance and everyone who repented at Christ's preaching were given that by God.

I am not disagreeing with the verses, just how you take them. God does not repent for us...but he has through Messiah created conditions from which we have a place to repent to. We were apart from God, Messiah changed that, now we can turn from our self centered world unto a God centered world. We do the repenting though, we change from self to God. He is allowing our repentence now that there is a path in place to turn to.

Peace.
Ken

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 05:53 PM
You gave the very passages which prove that repentance isn't a "gift". It's granted. A grant is something which is requested.

A grant is something that is given, requested or not.

it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

We were granted to believe. We did not ask to believe.

The Gentiles did not ask God to grant them repentance.


Jesus said that the Jewish leaders had to repent. Peter said it. Paul said it. It is a request from a person to God for a forgiveness of sins, a cleansing of the conscience.

You define repentance as a request for forgiveness.

I would agree with that.

We did not ask for repentance, but once we are granted repentance, we repent (ask for forgiveness).


God either answers it and grants the repentance...or He doesn't. When Jesus talked about the judgment, He said about those who are lost, "I never knew you." He didn't say, "I knew you...then I didn't...then I did...then I didn't.

I agree comepletely here. But you are talking about God granting forgiveness here. Repentance was already granted, or they could not repent.


There is no gray area here, no "limbo", no "in-between". Nor is there any such thing as "almost Saved" or "had been Saved". Salvation is eternal or it isn't Salvation from God. You are either Saved...or you are not.

Amen.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 05:56 PM
I am not disagreeing with the verses, just how you take them. God does not repent for us...but he has through Messiah created conditions from which we have a place to repent to. We were apart from God, Messiah changed that, now we can turn from our self centered world unto a God centered world. We do the repenting though, we change from self to God. He is allowing our repentence now that there is a path in place to turn to.

Peace.
Ken

We repent, as God grants it to us.

We have faith, in the measure God gives us.

We do the repenting, but only as God grants it to us.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 05:59 PM
I got it!

It IS a true believer.

It is impossible to renew them to repentance.

Repentance, being a gift from God is irrevocable. He won't give it, take it away, and then give it again. It is impossible to be renewed to repentance for once you have the gift of repentance, you will not receive it again.Scripture does not teach that repentance is a gift. Instead, it teaches that God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). How can it be a gift given to only a select few when all people are commanded to do it? Would God command all people to repent if not all people could repent? Would God command all people to repent if He only planned on giving repentance to some people?

IBWatching
Jan 14th 2009, 06:10 PM
You won't find in that text that they were "reverting back to Judaism." No where in the entire letter actually.

Word for word, no. But the Book is titled Hebrews. When the author warned about neglecting so great a Salvation, and falling back, the context itself supports the idea that they would rather be Jews. This issue is like the Trinity. Does the Bible state clearly state the concept of the Trinity, or do you understand it from the text?

IBWatching
Jan 14th 2009, 06:19 PM
...I agree comepletely here. But you are talking about God granting forgiveness here. Repentance was already granted, or they could not repent...

All I see from the text is repentance being granted. You are adding a step prior to that and calling it a "gift". Here's Jesus warning the Pharisees:


Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were {worse} culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."Jesus said they would have to repent. It was something they had to do. Adding anything to that is adding to the plain meaning of the text. You may be confusing the "call" for repentance as some kind of "gift". Repentance is not part of Salvation. It leads to it. It is a prerequisite. That is why it has to be granted. Then Salvation is effected. Without repentance there can be no Salvation. Jesus made that clear.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 06:27 PM
All I see from the text is repentance being granted.

Right, they were granted repentance (the ability to repent, the ability to ask for forgiveness).


Jesus said they would have to repent. It was something they had to do. Adding anything to that is adding to the plain meaning of the text. You may be confusing the "call" for repentance as some kind of "gift". Repentance is not part of Salvation. It leads to it. It is a prerequisite. That is why it has to be granted.

You say that Jesus called all to repent, some of them repents without God giveing them repentance, God then gives them forgiveness, then they become saved.

I say that Jesus calls all to repent, God chose to grant some repentance, those that were given repentance repent, God gives them forgiveness, then they become saved.

Repentance (asking for the forgiveness of sins) itself is a gift from God granted by God.

IBWatching
Jan 14th 2009, 06:36 PM
...Repentance (asking for the forgiveness of sins) itself is a gift from God granted by God.

After the fact. The request comes before the granting. I sense Calvinistic tendencies from you. ;)

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 07:17 PM
is there anyone else here that will agree with this statement besides PP and VR:

God, who desires all men to repent, who has no plesaure in the death of wicked, who declares: "Turn to me and live", who is willing that none should perish, will not forgive someone who is willing to repent, if they have fallen from grace, even if they are sorry and regret what they have done?

basically, everyone can be forgiven EXCEPT those who were once forgiven but apostasized? Everyone can repent except those who had a previous relationship with Him and fell away? does that sound right to anyone other than PP and VR? just trying to see how popular this interpretation is. Because if the person is a true believer, we must also agree that it is impossible for them to repent. (for the record again i dont think they are true believers but for the sake of finding out how many agree with the previous statements)

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 07:19 PM
After the fact. The request comes before the granting. I sense Calvinistic tendencies from you. ;)

We ask for repentance?

No, we ask for the forgiveness of sins. Repentance is the ability to ask for forgiveness. Repentance is granted by God and separately, the forgiveness of sins is granted by God.

Slug1
Jan 14th 2009, 07:23 PM
is there anyone else here that will agree with this statement besides PP and VR:

God, who desires all men to repent, who has no plesaure in the death of wicked, who declares: "Turn to me and live", who is willing that none should perish, will not forgive someone who is willing to repent, if they have fallen from grace, even if they are sorry and regret what they have done?

basically, everyone can be forgiven EXCEPT those who were once forgiven but apostasized? Everyone can repent except those who had a previous relationship with Him and fell away? does that sound right to anyone other than PP and VR? just trying to see how popular this interpretation is. Because if the person is a true believer, we must also agree that it is impossible for them to repent. (for the record again i dont think they are true believers but for the sake of finding out how many agree with the previous statements)I'll agree with them cause... those who have blasphmed the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. This is a person who has seen the power of the Holy Spirit and denied it. A person who has been saved has witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit in themselves and then they walked away.... has denied the Holy Spirit.

Same boat to me.

Blasphemy the Holy Spirit and there is no repentance given no matter how many times asked.

VerticalReality
Jan 14th 2009, 07:24 PM
is there anyone else here that will agree with this statement besides PP and VR:

God, who desires all men to repent, who has no plesaure in the death of wicked, who declares: "Turn to me and live", who is willing that none should perish, will not forgive someone who is willing to repent, if they have fallen from grace, even if they are sorry and regret what they have done?

basically, everyone can be forgiven EXCEPT those who were once forgiven but apostasized? Everyone can repent except those who had a previous relationship with Him and fell away? does that sound right to anyone other than PP and VR? just trying to see how popular this interpretation is. Because if the person is a true believer, we must also agree that it is impossible for them to repent. (for the record again i dont think they are true believers but for the sake of finding out how many agree with the previous statements)

You are bit mistaken on my point of view, reformed. I do not believe that someone who falls away from the faith and is in a state of apostasy will ever have a desire to repent. I believe they are lost because in their heart they have betrayed the Lord Jesus Christ and they do not desire to be one of His. When Satan fills a person's heart there will be no desire to be renewed back to the Lord.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 07:26 PM
I'll agree with them cause... those who have blasphmed the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. This is a person who has seen the power of the Holy Spirit and denied it. A person who has been saved has witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit in themselves and then they walked away.... has denied the Holy Spirit.

Same boat to me.

Blasphemy the Holy Spirit and there is no repentance given no matter how many times asked.

do you think this rejection is a one time deal? like if someone is saved at 10 years old, blasphemes at 11, they are forced to live the rest of their lives rejected from God, even if they seek forgiveness, repentance?

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 07:29 PM
You are bit mistaken on my point of view, reformed. I do not believe that someone who falls away from the faith and is in a state of apostasy will ever have a desire to repent. I believe they are lost because in their heart they have betrayed the Lord Jesus Christ and they do not desire to be one of His. When Satan fills a person's heart there will be no desire to be renewed back to the Lord.

thanks for clearing that up this does make more sense. sorry for misinterpreting your position

Veretax
Jan 14th 2009, 07:31 PM
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.









If those in Hebrews 6 are born again, then following the logic of the passage, we must conclude that those who fall away cannot repent.



Most people who believe we can fall away will agree that if that backslider/prodigal will repent, he will be restored. But here it clearly says it is impossible to renew them to repentance.



If that is true, then it is possible that there are ex-born again belivers walking around on this Earth who want to go to heaven and repent but God wont let them? While pedophiles, murderers and thieves still have the door open to them?



Just for the record, it is my position that Hebrews 6 does not describe a truly born again believer, however if you agree that it is indeed a true believer, do you also agree that a true believer cannot repent from a fallen state if they wanted? For example, if i renounce my faith today and do some sin, and fall away, and then tommorow i wake up like the prodigal and say: "i am wasting my life. I have forsaken Jesus and have fallen away like a fool. Now i need to repent", are you saying that God will say: "sorry son, doors closed your oppurtunity is lost go to hell? lol


Again this is not an argument on whether they are true believers, i am assuming as a given that they are for the sake of the argument. The point of this thread is to discuss the impossibility of repentance for those who have fallen


I believe the person in Hebrews 6 is a Fence Straddler. By that I mean this, they attend a christian church, they've sat under solid preaching and teaching, they've maybe even tasted and been blessed by God through that church, may even had made a profession of faith and been 'baptized' yet for whatever reason they don't actually trust Christ, they don't have true faith. They have tasted of the fatness of the Gospel, and at some point if they don't take that true step of Faith, I believe God will allow them to in our eyes fall away from the faith, even though technically they were never of the Faith to begin with.

Slug1
Jan 14th 2009, 07:32 PM
do you think this rejection is a one time deal? like if someone is saved at 10 years old, blasphemes at 11, they are forced to live the rest of their lives rejected from God, even if they seek forgiveness, repentance?I would say the 10 year old didn't understand what salvation was.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 07:35 PM
I would say the 10 year old didn't understand what salvation was.

ok. lets say a 35 year old who understands perfectly. If he "blasphemes" at 35, he is doomed for the rest of eternity no matter what? for the rest of his life he can just forget about salvation?

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 07:42 PM
I believe the person in Hebrews 6 is a Fence Straddler. By that I mean this, they attend a christian church, they've sat under solid preaching and teaching, they've maybe even tasted and been blessed by God through that church, may even had made a profession of faith and been 'baptized' yet for whatever reason they don't actually trust Christ, they don't have true faith. They have tasted of the fatness of the Gospel, and at some point if they don't take that true step of Faith, I believe God will allow them to in our eyes fall away from the faith, even though technically they were never of the Faith to begin with.But how can one fall away from something they were never part of to begin with? What do you think it means to taste of the heavenly gift and partake of the Holy Spirit? How exactly can one who is not born again taste of the heavenly gift and partake of the Holy Spirit? Isn't tasting of the heavenly gift and partaking of the Holy Spirit the same as partaking "of the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) and partaking "of Christ" (Heb 3:14)?

Also, don't the first few verses of the chapter establish the context of who he is speaking about?

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In verse 1 he is warning believers about "not laying again the foundation of repentance of dead works, and of faith toward God". Agree? Could it be that he is warning them about that because he knows that if they do lay "again the foundation of repentance" that it would be impossible to "renew them again unto repentance"?

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 07:49 PM
But how can one fall away from something they were never part of to begin with? What do you think it means to taste of the heavenly gift and partake of the Holy Spirit? How exactly can one who is not born again taste of the heavenly gift and partake of the Holy Spirit? Isn't tasting of the heavenly gift and partaking of the Holy Spirit the same as partaking "of the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) and partaking "of Christ" (Heb 3:14)?

Also, don't the first few verses of the chapter establish the context of who he is speaking about?

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In verse 1 he is warning believers about "not laying again the foundation of repentance of dead works, and of faith toward God". Agree? Could it be that he is warning them about that because he knows that if they do lay "again the foundation of repentance" that it would be impossible to "renew them again unto repentance"?


Like i said before this is not a thread for arguing whether they are believers are not, i am assuming that they are indeed believers (eventhough i personally dont think so). For the sake of the argument i would like everyone to assume they are believers. If they are belivers, then when they fall it is impossible to renew them to repentance. if this is true, we must say that if anyone falls away, they are damned for the rest of their life.

If someone falls away at 21 years old, from that point on they cannot repent, even if somehow they wanted to. It is impossible right? So it is possible to be alive right now but because in the past you have blasphemed you are damned for life, so you might as well enjoy whatever you can while you are here, because you are damned forever right? Why do any good because you are going to hell no matter what. Right?

Ascender
Jan 14th 2009, 07:52 PM
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.









If those in Hebrews 6 are born again, then following the logic of the passage, we must conclude that those who fall away cannot repent.



Most people who believe we can fall away will agree that if that backslider/prodigal will repent, he will be restored. But here it clearly says it is impossible to renew them to repentance.



If that is true, then it is possible that there are ex-born again belivers walking around on this Earth who want to go to heaven and repent but God wont let them? While pedophiles, murderers and thieves still have the door open to them?



Just for the record, it is my position that Hebrews 6 does not describe a truly born again believer, however if you agree that it is indeed a true believer, do you also agree that a true believer cannot repent from a fallen state if they wanted? For example, if i renounce my faith today and do some sin, and fall away, and then tommorow i wake up like the prodigal and say: "i am wasting my life. I have forsaken Jesus and have fallen away like a fool. Now i need to repent", are you saying that God will say: "sorry son, doors closed your oppurtunity is lost go to hell? lol


Again this is not an argument on whether they are true believers, i am assuming as a given that they are for the sake of the argument. The point of this thread is to discuss the impossibility of repentance for those who have fallen

As long as there is a desire for repentance and a willingness for repentance and that is acted upon, then salvation is still potential there. The person referenced in this verse is one who is apathetic and unwilling to persevere and apostate. An apostate has no desire for nor willingness for repentance.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 07:56 PM
As long as there is a desire for repentance and a willingness for repentance and that is acted upon, then salvation is still potential there. The person referenced in this verse is one who is apathetic and unwilling to persevere and apostate. An apostate has no desire for nor willingness for repentance.

so i can sin all i want and as long as i have a desire to repent i can be saved later? for example i can sin for years and then repent right before i die as long as i have a desire to repent right? I can drop Christianity today, live like the devil, as long as that desire to repent is there i am OK right? I wont be saved while i am sinning but as long as i sense a desire to repent somewhere then i am OK i can get saved later right?

VerticalReality
Jan 14th 2009, 08:06 PM
so i can sin all i want and as long as i have a desire to repent i can be saved later? for example i can sin for years and then repent right before i die as long as i have a desire to repent right? I can drop Christianity today, live like the devil, as long as that desire to repent is there i am OK right? I wont be saved while i am sinning but as long as i sense a desire to repent somewhere then i am OK i can get saved later right?

I think you are misunderstanding what is being talked about here with regard to Hebrews 6. This Scripture is not just talking about a person who falls into sin for a bit. This Scripture is talking about one who chooses to reject the faith even after having tasted the heavenly gift. This is such a person that has full knowledge and awareness of their rejection of Christ. They are with full knowledge choosing to turn their back on Jesus. Take Judas Iscariot, for example. It wasn't like this guy didn't know much about Jesus. It wasn't like he never witnessed the power and miracles that Jesus performed. He walked with Jesus for about three and half years. Yet, with all the knowledge he had of our Lord he still chose to turn his back and reject Him. He betrayed the Lord.

That is what an apostate who has tasted the heavenly gift is like as well. Just like Judas Iscariot, Satan has filled their heart and there will be no repentance.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 08:09 PM
Like i said before this is not a thread for arguing whether they are believers are not, i am assuming that they are indeed believers (eventhough i personally dont think so). For the sake of the argument i would like everyone to assume they are believers. If they are belivers, then when they fall it is impossible to renew them to repentance. if this is true, we must say that if anyone falls away, they are damned for the rest of their life.Whether or not they are believers doesn't make a difference as far as what it says about those who fall away. Regardless of whether it's speaking of believers falling away or unbelievers who maybe came close to believing but fell away, it says that those who do fall away cannot be renewed again to repentance. So, what we really need to do is determine exactly what it means to fall away because it's obviously pretty important for us to be able to warn people about allowing that to happen to them.


If someone falls away at 21 years old, from that point on they cannot repent, even if somehow they wanted to. It is impossible right?Based on what it says in that passage, I don't see how we can conclude anything else. But, again, what does it mean exactly when it speaks of someone falling away? I would think it's talking about an outright rejection of Christ rather than someone messing up and backsliding. Most, if not all, of us go through times where we struggle to grow in the faith. If that's what it means to fall away then there wouldn't be hope for any of us or at least not for most of us.


So it is possible to be alive right now but because in the past you have blasphemed you are damned for life, so you might as well enjoy whatever you can while you are here, because you are damned forever right? Why do any good because you are going to hell no matter what. Right?Wrong. It can't possibly mean that. You know whether or not you have a relationship with God right now. If you know in your heart that you do then Hebrews 6:4-6 doesn't apply to you when it speaks of those who have fallen away. Simple as that.

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 09:00 PM
Word for word, no. But the Book is titled Hebrews. When the author warned about neglecting so great a Salvation, and falling back, the context itself supports the idea that they would rather be Jews. This issue is like the Trinity. Does the Bible state clearly state the concept of the Trinity, or do you understand it from the text?No... it doesn't although it could. But look again at what he says in that tenth chapter...

Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

By the time this was written... Nicolaitanism was spreading far and fast. It is likely that the writer left it open to certainly cover that... maybe even both. But no one can tie it down to simply folks reverting back to Judaism. That would be far outside what it actually says.

Ascender
Jan 14th 2009, 09:11 PM
so i can sin all i want and as long as i have a desire to repent i can be saved later? for example i can sin for years and then repent right before i die as long as i have a desire to repent right? I can drop Christianity today, live like the devil, as long as that desire to repent is there i am OK right? I wont be saved while i am sinning but as long as i sense a desire to repent somewhere then i am OK i can get saved later right?


and the the context in Scripture for Licentiousness is found where?:rolleyes:

Nice of you to straw man...

Butch5
Jan 14th 2009, 09:16 PM
Greetings ProjectPeter

i am just trying to follow through with this if those in Hebrews 6 are truly born again. When they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. I am trying to see if those who agree this is a true beliver in Hebrews 6 also agree that those who have fallen cannot repent

That's what it says, however, in context, this is speaking to the Jewish believers and is addressing the issue that some were apparently going back to Judaism, if they did in fact go back to Judaism and reject Christ, there is no salvation left for them. They have already rejected the only true salvation.

Veretax
Jan 14th 2009, 09:33 PM
But how can one fall away from something they were never part of to begin with? What do you think it means to taste of the heavenly gift and partake of the Holy Spirit? How exactly can one who is not born again taste of the heavenly gift and partake of the Holy Spirit? Isn't tasting of the heavenly gift and partaking of the Holy Spirit the same as partaking "of the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) and partaking "of Christ" (Heb 3:14)?

Also, don't the first few verses of the chapter establish the context of who he is speaking about?

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In verse 1 he is warning believers about "not laying again the foundation of repentance of dead works, and of faith toward God". Agree? Could it be that he is warning them about that because he knows that if they do lay "again the foundation of repentance" that it would be impossible to "renew them again unto repentance"?

I think we are over thinking the verses that precede verse 4. The author of Hebrews is saying that he's not going to repeat those things which in essence are foundational, and if memory serves, he covered this prior, or at the very least he knows that the people he was writing to had already been instructed on baptism, laying on of the hands and such. What he is doing is calling them to set that as their foundation and begin to move on to maturity in Christ.

I like what Matthew Henry says on this, if its okay for me to post this, if not, mods please tell me and I won't do such again: but I'll try to summarize what he said which makes 100% sense to me.

1. Spiritual Growth is the surest way to prevent from falling into the sin of apostasy from the faith.
2. Enlightenment can refer to notional knowledge or common illumination, and he sites Balaam as an example (Numbers 24:3).
2. They may taste something religious, and seem to like it, but they want it on easier terms, and when they finally count the cost fall away.
3. As partakers they may have seen or even participated in miracles
4. They may relish some of the gospel doctrines, remember and even talk of them, yet never cast into the form and mold of it. (In otherwords to affix it or stand firm upon it.)
5. They may be under strong conviction concerning heaven, and dread going to hell, but are in fact hypocrites.


For such a one he says it is as if he would crucify Christ again, thus showing their contempt for Christ. This is why it is impossible to renew them to repentance, for they so despise christ that they would do what the jews did and put him to death again. Now I will add that Matthew Henry says that God can infact renew such a person to repentance, but seldom does, I'm not sure where he draws that conclusion :/


I found it an interesting read nonetheless.

Ultimately I think the clue to understanding this passage is in the following verses:

Hebrews 6:7-8 (NKJV)

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


Clearly, he is talking about the ground upon which thorns came up and choked it out (parable of the sower). Which in my mind means this person is not truly saved at all, though for a time he may appear to be, but when tried, when trial comes, they wilt.

John146
Jan 14th 2009, 09:50 PM
I think we are over thinking the verses that precede verse 4. The author of Hebrews is saying that he's not going to repeat those things which in essence are foundational, and if memory serves, he covered this prior, or at the very least he knows that the people he was writing to had already been instructed on baptism, laying on of the hands and such. What he is doing is calling them to set that as their foundation and begin to move on to maturity in Christ.How can they move on to maturity in Christ if they are not even believers? How can they lay again the foundation of repentance if they had not already repented before? Or are you saying verses 1-3 refers to believers while verses 4-6 do not? Please clarify.


I like what Matthew Henry says on this, if its okay for me to post this, if not, mods please tell me and I won't do such again: but I'll try to summarize what he said which makes 100% sense to me.

1. Spiritual Growth is the surest way to prevent from falling into the sin of apostasy from the faith.
2. Enlightenment can refer to notional knowledge or common illumination, and he sites Balaam as an example (Numbers 24:3).
2. They may taste something religious, and seem to like it, but they want it on easier terms, and when they finally count the cost fall away.
3. As partakers they may have seen or even participated in miracles
4. They may relish some of the gospel doctrines, remember and even talk of them, yet never cast into the form and mold of it. (In otherwords to affix it or stand firm upon it.)
5. They may be under strong conviction concerning heaven, and dread going to hell, but are in fact hypocrites.

For such a one he says it is as if he would crucify Christ again, thus showing their contempt for Christ. This is why it is impossible to renew them to repentance, for they so despise christ that they would do what the jews did and put him to death again.Since it speaks of the impossibility of them being renewed again to repentance doesn't that imply that they had previously been led to repentance, which we know from 2 Cor 7:9-10 leads to salvation?


Now I will add that Matthew Henry says that God can infact renew such a person to repentance, but seldom does, I'm not sure where he draws that conclusion :/Maybe we shouldn't put too much stock into what Matthew Henry has to say then, eh? :hmm:


I found it an interesting read nonetheless.Fair enough. But since he says that such a person can be renewed to repentance when the passage itself says it's impossible, you have to wonder about his understanding of the passage.


Ultimately I think the clue to understanding this passage is in the following verses:

Hebrews 6:7-8 (NKJV)

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Clearly, he is talking about the ground upon which thorns came up and choked it out (parable of the sower). Which in my mind means this person is not truly saved at all, though for a time he may appear to be, but when tried, when trial comes, they wilt.That's a possibility. I'm not saying my view on this is set in stone. It's obviously a difficult passage. I will take what you personally had to say about it into consideration while not putting much stock into what Matthew Henry had to say since he said something that clearly contradicted what the passage specifically says about those who fall away.

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 09:51 PM
and the the context in Scripture for Licentiousness is found where?:rolleyes:

Nice of you to straw man...

im not talking about sinning as a Christian. this is what im saying: if i am a non-Christian, but i still sense a need and desire to repent, i can continue in sin all my life as long as that desire is there, and then right before i die, as long as that desire is still there, i can be saved(become a Christian). right?

IBWatching
Jan 14th 2009, 09:58 PM
No... it doesn't although it could. But look again at what he says in that tenth chapter...

Hebrews 10:26 ¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

By the time this was written... Nicolaitanism was spreading far and fast. It is likely that the writer left it open to certainly cover that... maybe even both. But no one can tie it down to simply folks reverting back to Judaism. That would be far outside what it actually says.

Interesting. You say I am reaching by saying the text supports the notion that they could be reverting back to Judaism. Yet you now drag Nicolaitanism into it? OK. Ironically, the passage you posted is one of those which I believe supports my view. If these Believers were going back to Judaism, they would again be relying on sacrifices which were already shown to be worthless in regards to Righteousness. They would most certainly continue sinning, yet would have no sacrifice to cleanse themselves, let alone remove the sin.

Like I said...it is in the text. The author spent almost 10 full chapters showing why Jesus is Superior in every way to what the Old Covenant offered. To cement my logic, I would have to ask why did he spend so much time on it if he wasn't worried about Judaism?

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 10:02 PM
Interesting. You say I am reaching by saying the text supports the notion that they could be reverting back to Judaism. Yet you now drag Nicolaitanism into it? OK. Ironically, the passage you posted is one of those which I believe supports my view. If these Believers were going back to Judaism, they would again be relying on sacrifices which were already shown to be worthless in regards to Righteousness. They would most certainly continue sinning, yet would have no sacrifice to cleanse themselves, let alone remove the sin.

Like I said...it is in the text. The author spent almost 10 full chapters showing why Jesus is Superior in every way to what the Old Covenant offered. To cement my logic, I would have to ask why did he spend so much time on it if he wasn't worried about Judaism?

one of the key words in hebrews 10:26 is the very first word. "For". That means that the verse is somehow related and connected to the previous verse or verses in some manner, a continuation of thought. So just for a sidenote, interpreting this verse by itself, and not in the context of previous verses, you would be automatically wrong out of the gate. Im not saying whose right or wrong here, this is just a neutral sidenote from the stands lol

ProjectPeter
Jan 14th 2009, 10:11 PM
Interesting. You say I am reaching by saying the text supports the notion that they could be reverting back to Judaism. Yet you now drag Nicolaitanism into it? OK. Ironically, the passage you posted is one of those which I believe supports my view. If these Believers were going back to Judaism, they would again be relying on sacrifices which were already shown to be worthless in regards to Righteousness. They would most certainly continue sinning, yet would have no sacrifice to cleanse themselves, let alone remove the sin.

Like I said...it is in the text. The author spent almost 10 full chapters showing why Jesus is Superior in every way to what the Old Covenant offered. To cement my logic, I would have to ask why did he spend so much time on it if he wasn't worried about Judaism?I said that it was more likely. The point that I made in BOLD typing that part of chapter ten is that we do know that the writer is speaking of SIN. That we do know. Got it now?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 01:27 AM
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

If we sin wilfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth.

What is the knowledge of 'the' truth? the Gospel? or could it be, "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries"? I mean is not this message that the writer speaks of in the verses preceding this comment?

What about all the wilful sin BEFORE, that we have received the knowledge of the truth?

If (as some believe this verse to read), if we commit one deliberate sin, would that mean we are eternally lost?

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (:39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 01:55 AM
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

If we sin wilfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth.

What is the knowledge of 'the' truth? the Gospel? or could it be, "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries"? I mean is not this message that the writer speaks of in the verses preceding this comment?

What about all the wilful sin BEFORE, that we have received the knowledge of the truth?

If (as some believe this verse to read), if we commit one deliberate sin, would that mean we are eternally lost?

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (:39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Thats why i was trying to point out the very first word of the verse: "For"

That word "For" indicates a continuation of thought. You dont just start a thought with "For if" The interpretation of Hebrews 10:26 must be tied to the previous verse/verses. The preceeding verse/verses are talking about confidence of entering by the blood of Jesus, assurance of faith etc.

So the sin willfully is related to not entering ie not accepting Christ.

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 01:59 AM
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

If we sin wilfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth.

What is the knowledge of 'the' truth? the Gospel? or could it be, "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries"? I mean is not this message that the writer speaks of in the verses preceding this comment?

What about all the wilful sin BEFORE, that we have received the knowledge of the truth?



If (as some believe this verse to read), if we commit one deliberate sin, would that mean we are eternally lost?

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (:39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


This has to be kept in the context of Hebrews, I don't think if means if we commit a single sin. I belive it is referring to turning back to Judaism.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 02:07 AM
Thats why i was trying to point out the very first word of the verse: "For"

That word "For" indicates a continuation of thought. You dont just start a thought with "For if" The interpretation of Hebrews 10:26 must be tied to the previous verse/verses. The preceeding verse/verses are talking about confidence of entering by the blood of Jesus, assurance of faith etc.

So the sin willfully is related to not entering ie not accepting Christ.

Exactly!
They after having recieving the knowledge of the truth (Christ died ONCE for all sin) there remains no more sacrifice for sin. If they then willfully go back to regular sacrificing, they are trampling under foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 02:08 AM
This has to be kept in the context of Hebrews, I don't think if means if we commit a single sin. I belive it is referring to turning back to Judaism.

I agree!!...........

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 02:13 AM
Exactly!
They after having recieving the knowledge of the truth (Christ died ONCE for all sin) there remains no more sacrifice for sin. If they then willfully go back to regular sacrificing, they are trampling under foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

yes, the whole book of Hebrews is to Jewish-Christians right? I would think this was similar to Jesus saying he was the "true" vine. Throughout the OT Israel was said to be the "vine" of God. (psalm 80:8) Except God said they kept making bad fruit. then Jesus says i am the true vine, whoever does not abide in me is cut off. This was a reference to the once sanctified ethnic Israel now being cut off from the promises of God, fulfilled in Christ, the now TRUE Israel.

Slug1
Jan 15th 2009, 03:27 AM
ok. lets say a 35 year old who understands perfectly. If he "blasphemes" at 35, he is doomed for the rest of eternity no matter what? for the rest of his life he can just forget about salvation?If a person blasphemes per the definition in scripture against the Holy Spirit... yes, they can forget about ever being forgiven. Rebellion against God is forgiven and many define rebellious acts as blasphemy... it's usually not, it's sin that is forgiven. I've met Christians who would call me a blasphemer cause I took the Lord's name in vain. Sinful yeah, blasphemy... hardly. A Christian rebels against God and begins to sacrifice chickens in their rebellion. Sinful yeah, blasphemy... not likely... stupid though.

Mark 3:28-30 (New King James Version)

The Unpardonable Sin

28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Luke 12:9-11 (New King James Version)

9 But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.

Veretax
Jan 15th 2009, 03:53 AM
That's a possibility. I'm not saying my view on this is set in stone. It's obviously a difficult passage. I will take what you personally had to say about it into consideration while not putting much stock into what Matthew Henry had to say since he said something that clearly contradicted what the passage specifically says about those who fall away.

I think some questions are necessary in this passage in order to get a better idea of what it is saying. I'll use two hyphens to show where I'm thinking at various points of the passage.

Hebrews 6:1-8
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, --

The Author of Hebrews is informing the audience that he wishes to move on from the "fundamentals" or the "foundation" of Christ, and to move onto to pefection, or the Maturity. Having studied Hebrews, you will know that he began by establishing Christ as being Preminent over everything, creation, angels, prophets, etc. So the author is now moving beyond the foundation that he is laid unto knowledge which builds on top of that foundation. In the prior chapter he establishes Christ as of the order of Melchizidek

...

Heb 5:12-15 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This is what he was talking about, thus I am left to conclude that the people to whom this passage is directed were essentially babes in christ, who apparently needed milk again.

...

Heb 6:1 (cont)

-- not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, --

What are these dead works that they needed to repent of is it not the repentance they had in the OT system? Also moving from just faith in God but also in his son (remember it was Christ upon which the israelites needed to recognize) The author is saying kindly, that he is not going to again lay the foundation of repentance of sin and of faith towards God, or of baptisms (Ceremonial washings), layong on of hands (in the OT they would lay hands upon the sacrifice to identify it as their substitute), resurrection of the dead or of eternal judgment (the pharisee's believed in the resurrection of the dead and a judgement they were headed for thus all of these are associated with the Pharisees.

-- 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. --

Getting back to what he said in verse one of moving onto perfection (that being salvation by faith in Christ), and is now moving from OT teaching to embracing the New Covenant in Christ.

-- 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, --

As I said earlier the author is speaking to jews, and has cited things even the pharisee's taught and believed. It is possible to receive instruction in biblical truth (as did I as a child), but understanding the gospel is not the equivalent of regeneration. Having knowledge alone does not save, it is only by faith. Tasting is figurative and is refering to expereincing something. The Author of hebrews mentions this earlier in the epistle:


...

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

...

Obviously Christ's tasting of death was temporary as he was raised again on the Third Day. So true here tasting is a temporary thing.

Heb 6:4 (cont) -- and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, --

The foundation of the verse was laid that it was impossible for those who were enlightened (received biblical instruction, possibly even understood some in their mind), and have tasted of the heavenly gift (a temporary bestowment of God's blessing and grace), and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit (maybe they were even convicted of the Holy Spirit or participated in the ministry of Christ who was empowered by the Spirit and thus experienced it) Clearly, this is not a saved person, this is not a person of faith. And have tasted the good word of God (The gospel), like Simon Magus these Hebrews had not yet been regenerated in spite of all the great things they had seen and heard, and bore witness too.

...

Heb 2:1-9

1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying: "What is man that You are mindful of him, Or the son of man that You take care of him? 7 You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands. 8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

...

Not even having seen the power of Christ coming in the age to come did they believe, as it was written they were a "Stiff necked people" and to "Harden not their hearts."

-- 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. --

The author here not only says if they fall away, but describes the attitude of the people he is discussing in this chapter. They have become unfaithful to Christ, and their rejection of him is so severe that they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat him contemptuously. Why is it then impossible to restore or forgive such a person? Because they rejected Christ with full knowledge and conscious experience as described earlier in chapter five and even with this full revelation they rejected the truth and concluded something contrary to the Gospel which is of Christ. Such a person who is so hardened against God has no real hope of salvation. That I believe is what this Author is trying to tell us. If they have full knowledge, how can they ever know more than they do now, and do anything but assume Christ deserved to be crucified and stand in essence as Christ's enemy

-- 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. --

Two types of ground are described here, not unlike the parable of the Sower, one is fertile and responds in faith to the meassage and bears much fruit and is blessed, the other hears, but ultimately rejects it and is cursed and that ground becomes bearing thorns and briars. Verse 9 summs up this section nicely.


-- 9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.


--

In Conclusion, our hope and salvation rests in faith in Christ, and even with knowledge in the head, knowledge alone doesn't save, it is by faith through God's grace that we are saved (eph 2:8-9)

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 04:37 AM
I think some questions are necessary in this passage in order to get a better idea of what it is saying. I'll use two hyphens to show where I'm thinking at various points of the passage.

Hebrews 6:1-8
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, --

The Author of Hebrews is informing the audience that he wishes to move on from the "fundamentals" or the "foundation" of Christ, and to move onto to pefection, or the Maturity. Having studied Hebrews, you will know that he began by establishing Christ as being Preminent over everything, creation, angels, prophets, etc. So the author is now moving beyond the foundation that he is laid unto knowledge which builds on top of that foundation. In the prior chapter he establishes Christ as of the order of Melchizidek

...

Heb 5:12-15 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This is what he was talking about, thus I am left to conclude that the people to whom this passage is directed were essentially babes in christ, who apparently needed milk again.

...

Heb 6:1 (cont)

-- not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, --

What are these dead works that they needed to repent of is it not the repentance they had in the OT system? Also moving from just faith in God but also in his son (remember it was Christ upon which the israelites needed to recognize) The author is saying kindly, that he is not going to again lay the foundation of repentance of sin and of faith towards God, or of baptisms (Ceremonial washings), layong on of hands (in the OT they would lay hands upon the sacrifice to identify it as their substitute), resurrection of the dead or of eternal judgment (the pharisee's believed in the resurrection of the dead and a judgement they were headed for thus all of these are associated with the Pharisees.

-- 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. --

Getting back to what he said in verse one of moving onto perfection (that being salvation by faith in Christ), and is now moving from OT teaching to embracing the New Covenant in Christ.

-- 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, --

As I said earlier the author is speaking to jews, and has cited things even the pharisee's taught and believed. It is possible to receive instruction in biblical truth (as did I as a child), but understanding the gospel is not the equivalent of regeneration. Having knowledge alone does not save, it is only by faith. Tasting is figurative and is refering to expereincing something. The Author of hebrews mentions this earlier in the epistle:


...

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

...

Obviously Christ's tasting of death was temporary as he was raised again on the Third Day. So true here tasting is a temporary thing.

Heb 6:4 (cont) -- and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, --

The foundation of the verse was laid that it was impossible for those who were enlightened (received biblical instruction, possibly even understood some in their mind), and have tasted of the heavenly gift (a temporary bestowment of God's blessing and grace), and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit (maybe they were even convicted of the Holy Spirit or participated in the ministry of Christ who was empowered by the Spirit and thus experienced it) Clearly, this is not a saved person, this is not a person of faith. And have tasted the good word of God (The gospel), like Simon Magus these Hebrews had not yet been regenerated in spite of all the great things they had seen and heard, and bore witness too.

...

Heb 2:1-9

1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying: "What is man that You are mindful of him, Or the son of man that You take care of him? 7 You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands. 8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

...

Not even having seen the power of Christ coming in the age to come did they believe, as it was written they were a "Stiff necked people" and to "Harden not their hearts."

-- 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. --

The author here not only says if they fall away, but describes the attitude of the people he is discussing in this chapter. They have become unfaithful to Christ, and their rejection of him is so severe that they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat him contemptuously. Why is it then impossible to restore or forgive such a person? Because they rejected Christ with full knowledge and conscious experience as described earlier in chapter five and even with this full revelation they rejected the truth and concluded something contrary to the Gospel which is of Christ. Such a person who is so hardened against God has no real hope of salvation. That I believe is what this Author is trying to tell us. If they have full knowledge, how can they ever know more than they do now, and do anything but assume Christ deserved to be crucified and stand in essence as Christ's enemy

-- 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. --

Two types of ground are described here, not unlike the parable of the Sower, one is fertile and responds in faith to the meassage and bears much fruit and is blessed, the other hears, but ultimately rejects it and is cursed and that ground becomes bearing thorns and briars. Verse 9 summs up this section nicely.


-- 9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.


--

In Conclusion, our hope and salvation rests in faith in Christ, and even with knowledge in the head, knowledge alone doesn't save, it is by faith through God's grace that we are saved (eph 2:8-9)

yes, there is a passage where Jesus is talking to Jews in John chapter 8: It is possible to "believe" but still be of Satan

John 8:30"As He was saying these things many believed in Him"
John 8:31"So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him"
John 8:37 "My word has no place in you"
John 8:40 "now you seek to kill me"
John 8:44" You are of your father the devil"
John 8:45 "Because I tell you the truth you do not believe me"


Do you guys really think these Jews were saved and then somehow became unsaved while Jesus talked to them? Jesus says they are of their father the devil, and they do not believe, even though they are described as "believers"
Just because the Bible says someone "believes" doesnt always mean it is genuine. Follow closley on how they act later. Another example was the magician in Acts, who believed and was baptized, a few verses later, he tries to buy the power of the Holy Spirit from the apostles.

Jemand
Jan 15th 2009, 08:14 AM
Because of the extreme severity of the word “impossible” in Heb. 6:6, many very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon. Prior to the 16th century, Heb. 6:1-8 was universally taught as teaching the extreme danger of a Christian willfully sinning, but not everyone agreed that a person who totally fell from grace was in an absolutely impossible situation. It is my view that that a person who has totally fallen from grace can neither be restored by the Church to repentance nor be restored by any other means. Such a person has taken an irreversible fatal step, and his situation is absolutely hopeless.

Matt. 7:13. “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14. “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (NASB, 1995)

Veretax
Jan 15th 2009, 11:58 AM
yes, there is a passage where Jesus is talking to Jews in John chapter 8: It is possible to "believe" but still be of Satan

John 8:30"As He was saying these things many believed in Him"
John 8:31"So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him"
John 8:37 "My word has no place in you"
John 8:40 "now you seek to kill me"
John 8:44" You are of your father the devil"
John 8:45 "Because I tell you the truth you do not believe me"


Do you guys really think these Jews were saved and then somehow became unsaved while Jesus talked to them? Jesus says they are of their father the devil, and they do not believe, even though they are described as "believers"
Just because the Bible says someone "believes" doesnt always mean it is genuine. Follow closley on how they act later. Another example was the magician in Acts, who believed and was baptized, a few verses later, he tries to buy the power of the Holy Spirit from the apostles.


No I don't. I think the people spoken of had received some teaching, had perhaps even all the knowledge necessary for one to put their faith in Christ, maybe even took part or had been the recipients of miracles, but yet still despised Christ so much, that they never crossed over that threshold of what separates belief from unbelief.

In my own life, I always had a great intellect, and I knew a great deal of the bible even before I was saved, yet, I had not faith. With out true saving faith all that knowledge, all that mental understanding is as worthless as rocks in your shoes.

Steve M
Jan 15th 2009, 01:47 PM
I think some questions are necessary in this passage in order to get a better idea of what it is saying. I'll use two hyphens to show where I'm thinking at various points of the passage.

Hebrews 6:1-8
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, --

The Author of Hebrews is informing the audience that he wishes to move on from the "fundamentals" or the "foundation" of Christ, and to move onto to pefection, or the Maturity. Having studied Hebrews, you will know that he began by establishing Christ as being Preminent over everything, creation, angels, prophets, etc. So the author is now moving beyond the foundation that he is laid unto knowledge which builds on top of that foundation. In the prior chapter he establishes Christ as of the order of Melchizidek

...

Heb 5:12-15 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This is what he was talking about, thus I am left to conclude that the people to whom this passage is directed were essentially babes in christ, who apparently needed milk again.

...

Heb 6:1 (cont)

-- not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, --

What are these dead works that they needed to repent of is it not the repentance they had in the OT system? Also moving from just faith in God but also in his son (remember it was Christ upon which the israelites needed to recognize) The author is saying kindly, that he is not going to again lay the foundation of repentance of sin and of faith towards God, or of baptisms (Ceremonial washings), layong on of hands (in the OT they would lay hands upon the sacrifice to identify it as their substitute), resurrection of the dead or of eternal judgment (the pharisee's believed in the resurrection of the dead and a judgement they were headed for thus all of these are associated with the Pharisees.

-- 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. --

Getting back to what he said in verse one of moving onto perfection (that being salvation by faith in Christ), and is now moving from OT teaching to embracing the New Covenant in Christ.

-- 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, --

As I said earlier the author is speaking to jews, and has cited things even the pharisee's taught and believed. It is possible to receive instruction in biblical truth (as did I as a child), but understanding the gospel is not the equivalent of regeneration. Having knowledge alone does not save, it is only by faith. Tasting is figurative and is refering to expereincing something. The Author of hebrews mentions this earlier in the epistle:


...

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

...

Obviously Christ's tasting of death was temporary as he was raised again on the Third Day. So true here tasting is a temporary thing.

Heb 6:4 (cont) -- and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, --

The foundation of the verse was laid that it was impossible for those who were enlightened (received biblical instruction, possibly even understood some in their mind), and have tasted of the heavenly gift (a temporary bestowment of God's blessing and grace), and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit (maybe they were even convicted of the Holy Spirit or participated in the ministry of Christ who was empowered by the Spirit and thus experienced it) Clearly, this is not a saved person, this is not a person of faith. And have tasted the good word of God (The gospel), like Simon Magus these Hebrews had not yet been regenerated in spite of all the great things they had seen and heard, and bore witness too.

...

Heb 2:1-9

1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying: "What is man that You are mindful of him, Or the son of man that You take care of him? 7 You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands. 8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

...

Not even having seen the power of Christ coming in the age to come did they believe, as it was written they were a "Stiff necked people" and to "Harden not their hearts."

-- 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. --

The author here not only says if they fall away, but describes the attitude of the people he is discussing in this chapter. They have become unfaithful to Christ, and their rejection of him is so severe that they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat him contemptuously. Why is it then impossible to restore or forgive such a person? Because they rejected Christ with full knowledge and conscious experience as described earlier in chapter five and even with this full revelation they rejected the truth and concluded something contrary to the Gospel which is of Christ. Such a person who is so hardened against God has no real hope of salvation. That I believe is what this Author is trying to tell us. If they have full knowledge, how can they ever know more than they do now, and do anything but assume Christ deserved to be crucified and stand in essence as Christ's enemy

-- 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. --

Two types of ground are described here, not unlike the parable of the Sower, one is fertile and responds in faith to the meassage and bears much fruit and is blessed, the other hears, but ultimately rejects it and is cursed and that ground becomes bearing thorns and briars. Verse 9 summs up this section nicely.


-- 9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.


--

In Conclusion, our hope and salvation rests in faith in Christ, and even with knowledge in the head, knowledge alone doesn't save, it is by faith through God's grace that we are saved (eph 2:8-9)
So you're saying:

This is not a saved person.

And now they can NEVER BECOME a saved person.

So there's a person who looks like they were on the cusp of being saved... but now it's no use. No matter how sorry they might become later, they've gone beyond that.

...

Veretax
Jan 15th 2009, 02:45 PM
So you're saying:

This is not a saved person.

And now they can NEVER BECOME a saved person.

So there's a person who looks like they were on the cusp of being saved... but now it's no use. No matter how sorry they might become later, they've gone beyond that.

...

What can such a person do? A person who had all the knowledge necessary concerning the gospel, maybe even saw miracles, or partaked of the blessings of the Holy Spirit in the assembly of believers.

Personally, I'm not confident that this is a common thing today, as we don't have some of those ministrations as being wide spread as it was during the time of the apostles.

But you are basically correct in what i said, that this person had enough to know who Christ was and what he died for, had partaken of these things with the rest of the Assembly, and yet as the passage goes onto Christ the esteem Christ not, and would crucify him again. That to me doesn't sound like a person of true faith at all to me.

IBWatching
Jan 15th 2009, 03:39 PM
I said that it was more likely. The point that I made in BOLD typing that part of chapter ten is that we do know that the writer is speaking of SIN. That we do know. Got it now?

Well one thing is for sure. I feel good because both you and reformedct think I am wrong. It's in keeping with my calvminian ways. :spin:

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 05:12 PM
If a person blasphemes per the definition in scripture against the Holy Spirit... yes, they can forget about ever being forgiven. Rebellion against God is forgiven and many define rebellious acts as blasphemy... it's usually not, it's sin that is forgiven. I've met Christians who would call me a blasphemer cause I took the Lord's name in vain. Sinful yeah, blasphemy... hardly. A Christian rebels against God and begins to sacrifice chickens in their rebellion. Sinful yeah, blasphemy... not likely... stupid though.

Mark 3:28-30 (New King James Version)

The Unpardonable Sin

28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Luke 12:9-11 (New King James Version)

9 But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.


to sum it up, i see Hebrews 6 as commiting the unpardonable sin, rejecting Christ. Knowing all about the Son and the SPirit and then rejecting it. But that sin is perpetually committed by unbelievers. That is why it is impossible to renew them to "repentance" (returning to the gathering church and adhering back to the faith). "When they fall away" in my mind this shows that they have recieved all they needed to have faith but still refuse to believe. this is why there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Because there is only one sacrifice. If you never accept HIm, how can you be saved?

Also notice the author never says they had faith or that they believed. All of the language is suttle and does not imply commitment in any way

enlightened-no commitment implied

tasted- no commitment implied

Shared in the Spirit-no commitment implied(simply means they were blessed to see the work of the Spirit in their midst)

(once again) tasted- word of God and powers to come(shared in the Spirit)-no commitment implied

why doesnt the author just call them believers or disciples? because they are not.(imo) Why go through all these descriptions but never mention that they believe? why not just say it? and notice how the language is so passive, tasted, enlightened, shared in, tasted- does this sound like a disciple who has taken up their cross?

crucify again the Son of God- obviously Jesus cannot come down and be re-crucified. The point here is that for these unbelievers, once they leave the church, they hold up the Son in contempt by their faithless actions. By their own actions they hold up the Son in shame in such a way that it is as if he was crucified again at that moment.

Remember in context he is talking to a group who was still confused over the basic principles. They were stuck on the elementary things of Christ and had not been moving toward maturity. For this reason the writer points out that for those who recieve knowledge of all these things and never produce fruit but instead fall away will be burned. The context of the passage and the chapter before it is fruitfulness.

Then in the following verses he explains the concept further with an illustartion:

Land that recieves the rain(could be the Word of God or the conviction of the Spirit or whatever) and bears fruit is a blessing

Land that recieves rain and bears thorns will be burned.

It doesnt say, land that once bore fruit but now only bears thorns and thistles. He describes two seperate fields. Just like Jesus compares two seperate branches/trees. One bears fruit the other bears thorns. There is no mixture


Also, verse 9: Though we speak this way, yet in your case, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation


i know you guys have heard this argument before so i dont know why i laid it out again as if it were something new but i just wanted to share my view. I think its rather hard to make that passage say it was a true believer without it actually calling them a believer implicitly. the language is so passive: tasted, enlightened, shared in, tasted, these dont sound like terms for someone with the living faith that is required for salvation. It is too "front-end". You cant walk in tasting faith lol I dont even think there is such thing as tasting faith, or a free sample Christian. "Shared in" gives me the same feel as "tasted". partaker can also refer to eating, for example partakers of a banquet, so partaker in the Spirit could just be a taster of the Holy Spirt, considering they tasted everything else i dont consider it a stretch by anymeans.

I think it is harder to take such passive, sampling language and then say this is a true disciple

but of course i know some of you will disagree. Its ok just relax the world will not blow up if we dont see eye to eye:P