PDA

View Full Version : 1st Peter 2:8



reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 07:33 PM
"They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do."


seems this Scripture is saying some were already destined to disobey the word?

how do you guys interpret destined here? lets discuss.:hmm:

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 07:37 PM
"They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do."


seems this Scripture is saying some were already destined to disobey the word?

how do you guys interpret destined here? lets discuss.:hmm:

Shhhh! You can't believe that destined actually means destined!

I can't believe that God destined anyone to disbelief.

No, we need to put another word in it's place. Oh, I know, let's use chose instead of were destined. Yes! That works so much better for my beliefs. :rofl:

VerticalReality
Jan 14th 2009, 07:39 PM
"They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do."


seems this Scripture is saying some were already destined to disobey the word?

how do you guys interpret destined here? lets discuss.:hmm:

Based upon our Father's foreknowledge He did, in fact, destine some for destruction because of their wickedness.

doubledcattle
Jan 14th 2009, 07:45 PM
Not to mention that He is All Knowing, and even knows how many hairs are on our head.

I believe that he knew it would happen, I don't think he picked them one by one, he just knew that people were going to. Does that make any sense? lol.

VerticalReality
Jan 14th 2009, 07:47 PM
Not to mention that He is All Knowing, and even knows how many hairs are on our head.

I believe that he knew it would happen, I don't think he picked them one by one, he just knew that people were going to. Does that make any sense? lol.

I believe He picked them just as He picked us. Those who are in Christ have been chosen by Him. Ephesians and some other Scriptures make that clear. However, He chose us based upon His foreknowledge. He knew who to pick . . .

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 07:52 PM
Based upon our Father's foreknowledge He did, in fact, destine some for destruction because of their wickedness.

But it doesnt say "because of their wickedness" here.

it clearly seems to say they were destined to disobey, not they disobeyed so they were destined.

VerticalReality
Jan 14th 2009, 08:00 PM
But it doesnt say "because of their wickedness" here.

it clearly seems to say they were destined to disobey, not they disobeyed so they were destined.

What would you say He needs His foreknowledge for to base such a decision? What's He seeing in order to make His choice? The Scriptures make clear that it is based on His foreknowledge that He makes His choice. What is it that is taking place in the future that He is knowledgeable of that is allowing Him to make such a determination?

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 08:04 PM
What would you say He needs His foreknowledge for to base such a decision? What's He seeing in order to make His choice? The Scriptures make clear that it is based on His foreknowledge that He makes His choice. What is it that is taking place in the future that He is knowledgeable of that is allowing Him to make such a determination?


i was not speaking of foreknowledge here. Foreknowledge is a totally different concept that involves the love of God and affections of God for those He would love. I am talking about destination. Destined to disobey.

VerticalReality
Jan 14th 2009, 08:09 PM
i was not speaking of foreknowledge here. Foreknowledge is a totally different concept that involves the love of God and affections of God for those He would love. I am talking about destination. Destined to disobey.

Pre-destination is based upon foreknowledge. With God you do not have one without the other. God always has foreknowledge.

TrustingFollower
Jan 14th 2009, 08:47 PM
1 Peter 2

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

If we look at it in context we see that this is not talking about God hand picking certain people for destruction. This is talking about all those that do not believe in Christ as Lord and savior. What their fate is and that is the second death. This is saying the same message that Paul preached in Corinth.

1 Corinthians 1

18 ¶For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Who is perishing in this passage? Those that do not believe in Christ or as Peter put it those the disbelieve.

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 09:07 PM
1 Peter 2

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

If we look at it in context we see that this is not talking about God hand picking certain people for destruction. This is talking about all those that do not believe in Christ as Lord and savior. What their fate is and that is the second death. This is saying the same message that Paul preached in Corinth.

1 Corinthians 1

18 ¶For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Who is perishing in this passage? Those that do not believe in Christ or as Peter put it those the disbelieve.

I'm confused. :hmm:

They were appointed to this doom.

Is this doom:

1. Stumbling?
2. Rejecting the cornerstone?
3. being disobedient to the Word?
4. Disbelieving?
5. Destruction?

And are any of those without the other?

God appointed them to something that was bad, thus doom. And if He appointed them to one of the above, then it would stand to reason they were appointed to all of the above.

Butch5
Jan 14th 2009, 09:09 PM
Shhhh! You can't believe that destined actually means destined!

I can't believe that God destined anyone to disbelief.

No, we need to put another word in it's place. Oh, I know, let's use chose instead of were destined. Yes! That works so much better for my beliefs. :rofl:

Do you mean like all doesn't mean all?

Butch5
Jan 14th 2009, 09:11 PM
1 Peter 2

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

If we look at it in context we see that this is not talking about God hand picking certain people for destruction. This is talking about all those that do not believe in Christ as Lord and savior. What their fate is and that is the second death. This is saying the same message that Paul preached in Corinth.



1 Corinthians 1

18 ¶For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Who is perishing in this passage? Those that do not believe in Christ or as Peter put it those the disbelieve.


What? Why would anyone read the Scriptures in context?

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 09:20 PM
Do you mean like all doesn't mean all?

It is not I that tries to redefine all.

All means all.

When Christ said He draws all men to Him, all are drawn to Christ, not just the saved.

This thread however is about "how do you guys interpret destined here?"

If you wish to discuss how you have tried to redefine all, then start another thread.

TrustingFollower
Jan 14th 2009, 09:21 PM
What? Why would anyone read the Scriptures in context?
Really.... where is the sport in that?:lol:

TrustingFollower
Jan 14th 2009, 09:24 PM
I'm confused. :hmm:

They were appointed to this doom.

Is this doom:

1. Stumbling?
2. Rejecting the cornerstone?
3. being disobedient to the Word?
4. Disbelieving?
5. Destruction?

And are any of those without the other?

God appointed them to something that was bad, thus doom. And if He appointed them to one of the above, then it would stand to reason they were appointed to all of the above.
What are you confused about? Is God going to destroy all those that do not believe in Christ? Would that not be appointing them (those whom disbelieve) to doom?

Yukerboy
Jan 14th 2009, 10:02 PM
What are you confused about? Is God going to destroy all those that do not believe in Christ? Would that not be appointing them (those whom disbelieve) to doom?

Peter, when he says this doom, is talking of disbelief, stumbling, disbelieving the word, and rejecting the cornerstone.

So yes, He appointed them to all the above.

It is easy to say that He appointed those who won't believe to destruction, but that is not what this verse says.

The end result of the doom He appointed them for (which was disbelieveing the word of God) is condemnation.

TrustingFollower
Jan 14th 2009, 10:40 PM
Peter, when he says this doom, is talking of disbelief, stumbling, disbelieving the word, and rejecting the cornerstone.

So yes, He appointed them to all the above.

It is easy to say that He appointed those who won't believe to destruction, but that is not what this verse says.

The end result of the doom He appointed them for (which was disbelieveing the word of God) is condemnation.
Now you are twisting it to fit into the doctrine you subscribe to. This says the same thing God has been saying all throughout the bible. Faith in the messiah equals eternal life, disbelief equals eternal damnation. It has always been about Jesus and only about Jesus.

To say this verse is showing God hand picked some people to eternal damnation is taking it way out of context and does not even line up with the rest of scripture. It plainly says those that do not believe in Christ are damned, see right back to being about Jesus again.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 12:04 AM
1 Peter 2

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

If we look at it in context we see that this is not talking about God hand picking certain people for destruction. This is talking about all those that do not believe in Christ as Lord and savior. What their fate is and that is the second death. This is saying the same message that Paul preached in Corinth.

Hi TrustingFollower!

In context:
This is talking about the Jews (to the Jews, the gospel is a stumbling block) They were appointed to stumble. [Ref: Isaiah 8] also [Romans 11]

To say their fate is the second death, is not only way out of context, but it is absurd.


1 Corinthians 1

18 ¶For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Who is perishing in this passage? Those that do not believe in Christ or as Peter put it those the disbelieve.

This is to the Greeks. The gospel to them is foolishness.

The word here for perish is 'apollumi' and it is in the middle voice.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 12:13 AM
What are you confused about? Is God going to destroy all those that do not believe in Christ? Would that not be appointing them (those whom disbelieve) to doom?

The word 'doom' as been added in the NASB, and is in 'grey'. I don't know of any other translation that has this word added.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 12:19 AM
Now you are twisting it to fit into the doctrine you subscribe to. This says the same thing God has been saying all throughout the bible. Faith in the messiah equals eternal life, disbelief equals eternal damnation. It has always been about Jesus and only about Jesus.

To say this verse is showing God hand picked some people to eternal damnation is taking it way out of context and does not even line up with the rest of scripture. It plainly says those that do not believe in Christ are damned, see right back to being about Jesus again.

Yukerboy is not saying God hand picked some people to eternal damnation. It is you who are saying Yukerboy says this.

God appointed them to stumble, to be snared.

Even Paul himself stumbled, but was he doomed for the second death? No! but he did stumble, and this was appointed.

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 02:04 AM
It is not I that tries to redefine all.

All means all.

When Christ said He draws all men to Him, all are drawn to Christ, not just the saved.

This thread however is about "how do you guys interpret destined here?"

If you wish to discuss how you have tried to redefine all, then start another thread.

It's the Calvinist who has to redefine all.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 02:14 AM
Hi TrustingFollower!

In context:
This is talking about the Jews (to the Jews, the gospel is a stumbling block) They were appointed to stumble. [Ref: Isaiah 8] also [Romans 11]

To say their fate is the second death, is not only way out of context, but it is absurd.



This is to the Greeks. The gospel to them is foolishness.

The word here for perish is 'apollumi' and it is in the middle voice.
Nope, not talking to just the Jews here, this is to all that do not believe. Think about it a little. this letter was written some thirty years after Jesus died and so the gospel has been spread greatly to both Jew and Gentile.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 02:17 AM
The word 'doom' as been added in the NASB, and is in 'grey'. I don't know of any other translation that has this word added.
So throw out the word doom, is the word of God a stumbling block to those that do not believe in Christ?

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 02:19 AM
So throw out the word doom, is the word of God a stumbling block to those that do not believe in Christ?

i guess the question is what does "as they were destined to do" refer to? destined to stumble? or destine to disobey?

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 02:30 AM
i guess the question is what does "as they were destined to do" refer to? destined to stumble? or destine to disobey?
Well, how was it for you before you believed in Jesus?

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 02:31 AM
Well, how was it for you before you believed in Jesus?

im not sure what you are asking. I will say that God did something to my heart one day when i was not even searching for Him. Ever since that day i have been different. So i am the wrong person to ask about choosing God lol but maybe you could clarify what you are asking?

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 02:44 AM
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

It is not the Jews Peter was talking to here, but all Christians.

Therefore when PoC states "Yukerboy is not saying God hand picked some people to eternal damnation. It is you who are saying Yukerboy says this.", PoC is incorrect.

I'm saying exactly that.

God picked some people to stumble, not believe, reject the cornerstone, what have you. He chose some to be saved and some not.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 02:49 AM
im not sure what you are asking. I will say that God did something to my heart one day when i was not even searching for Him. Ever since that day i have been different. So i am the wrong person to ask about choosing God lol but maybe you could clarify what you are asking?
Before you came to repentance I am sure you were forced to go to church with someone. How was that to you when you were forced to go to church when you had no desire to be there?

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 02:52 AM
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

It is not the Jews Peter was talking to here, but all Christians.

Therefore when PoC states "Yukerboy is not saying God hand picked some people to eternal damnation. It is you who are saying Yukerboy says this.", PoC is incorrect.

I'm saying exactly that.

God picked some people to stumble, not believe, reject the cornerstone, what have you. He chose some to be saved and some not.
So then is it a lie then when Peter wrote his second letter?

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

If God desires none to perish, but all to come to repentance why would he make it not available to all?

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 02:57 AM
Before you came to repentance I am sure you were forced to go to church with someone. How was that to you when you were forced to go to church when you had no desire to be there?

well my dad was the pastor of a small church so i had to go because of him. Its small so i had to help set up and record the service. i grew up in church but i didnt really get deep into it, outside of the occasional "emotional tears" because of the music or atmosphere, but then i would go right back to my wordly life on Monday. Church was just what my family "did". Most of the time i would bring my mp3 player or something or fall asleep since i was sitting in the back lol. but one Sunday i was sitting in the back as usual doing sound equipment, thinking about what college major i should pick. All of the sudden something happened to me. I swear it was so weird it was like the whole world looked so beutiful lol. I felt like i was in a Bambi scene or something it was soooooo weird. After the service i got up and gladly announced i was dedicating my life to God. It was weeeiiirrrd. My dad was telling people about it. He was surprised cuz i never really did anything like that . My Bible, which i used to NEVER read, all of the sudden became the center of my life. I have constantly been studying Scripture ever since that day. So that was my experience. Thats why i am reformed, not just because of a "man-made doctrine" but because i feel like i experienced "unconditional election" first-hand. It gives me hope because it is not my persuasiveness that will save but the Spirit of God. Many reformed believers that i know share a similar experience to mine. A inner change that has affected them forever. He can change anybody even if they have hated God all their life. soooo thats my two cents:hmm:

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 03:04 AM
So then is it a lie then when Peter wrote his second letter?

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

If God desires none to perish, but all to come to repentance why would he make it not available to all?

its available to all but the mind of the natural mind is hostile to God.

Lets see:

no one seeks God
Dead in sins
The mind of the natural man hostile to God (not just indifferent or unknowing)
man is enemy to God
Hater of God
Supresses truth in unrighteousness
Stony heart

What is the chance that this man will repent outside of a changed heart?

will a person with a stony heart, a mind hostile to God, who hates God and does not seek Him, and supresses the truth in unrighteousness, whose heart is exceedingly wicked, choose God?

Also, we see Lydia had her heart opened to recieve. What if He didnt do that? She obviously "believed in God" prior?. But then God did something extra on the inside. If we already have everything we need to believe then why did God open Lydias heart? did she ask Him to do that? Why didnt He just let her believe/repent out of her heart the way it was when she heard the gospel?

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 03:13 AM
So then is it a lie then when Peter wrote his second letter?

2 Peter 3

9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

If God desires none to perish, but all to come to repentance why would he make it not available to all?

It is Scripture and therefore not a lie.

God desires all to be saved, but His will differs from His desires.

If God willed all to be saved, then all would be saved for who can resist His will?

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 03:25 AM
It is Scripture and therefore not a lie.

God desires all to be saved, but His will differs from His desires.

If God willed all to be saved, then all would be saved for who can resist His will?
God's will is that everything is through Christ. So I don't see anything in scripture that says different. Either believe in Christ and live or don't believe and die. Christ is the whole meaning of this world we know of today.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 03:41 AM
God's will is that everything is through Christ. So I don't see anything in scripture that says different. Either believe in Christ and live or don't believe and die. Christ is the whole meaning of this world we know of today.

I would agree with that.

But I also understand that it is given by God to us to believe on Christ. (Philippians 1:29)

God has destined some according to Peter to disbelief. God has also given some according to Paul the gift of believing in Christ.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 04:09 AM
its available to all but the mind of the natural mind is hostile to God.

Lets see:

no one seeks God
Dead in sins
The mind of the natural man hostile to God (not just indifferent or unknowing)
man is enemy to God
Hater of God
Supresses truth in unrighteousness
Stony heart

What is the chance that this man will repent outside of a changed heart?

will a person with a stony heart, a mind hostile to God, who hates God and does not seek Him, and supresses the truth in unrighteousness, whose heart is exceedingly wicked, choose God?
Were you unrighteous until you choose God? Wasn't everyone an enemy to God when Christ died on the cross for us?

Doesn't scripture tell us that all are called to Christ by the Holy Spirit? So if all are called then salvation is available to all, but not all will receive it.

All of us had a heart of stone before we believed in Christ, but when we choose to accept Christ our heart was changed. Saul/Paul is a perfect example of this. We can not do the work of Christ if we were not given the new heart, so it all comes back to being about Christ.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 04:12 AM
I would agree with that.

But I also understand that it is given by God to us to believe on Christ. (Philippians 1:29)

God has destined some according to Peter to disbelief. God has also given some according to Paul the gift of believing in Christ.
While I see it as God desires all to come to repentance, but God also allows those to not believe. Why would God allow those to not believe? Simple answer is to demonstrate His power through it all.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 04:18 AM
While I see it as God desires all to come to repentance, but God also allows those to not believe. Why would God allow those to not believe? Simple answer is to demonstrate His power through it all.

To be destined not to believe is a lot different than being allowed not to believe.

See what I mean about redefining terms? It is given to some to believe (Philippians) and some are destined to unbelief (1 Peter)

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 04:45 AM
Were you unrighteous until you choose God? Wasn't everyone an enemy to God when Christ died on the cross for us?

Doesn't scripture tell us that all are called to Christ by the Holy Spirit? So if all are called then salvation is available to all, but not all will receive it.

All of us had a heart of stone before we believed in Christ, but when we choose to except Christ our heart was changed. Saul/Paul is a perfect example of this. We can not do the work of Christ if we were not given the new heart, so it all comes back to being about Christ.


i dont think you understood me. Something happened to my heart first. My heart was changed first. Then I believed. That is my personal experience. It wasnt that i called on the Lord and then He changed me. Something happened inside of me first and then I looked to the Lord. Yes i was unrighteous before but then when God grabbed me He cleansed me

A pastor i enjoy named Matt Chandler had a similar experience. He said God did something to his heart and it took Him awhile to figure out what happened. When God first did that to me, i was so confused about what had happened that i deliberately tried to go back to my old way of life to see if i had really been changed. I felt miserable. The more i sinned, the more i was convinced that i had to stop. There was a change in my nature, everything else came AFTER. but that is just my experience so i cant expect all to relate i guess

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 04:51 AM
i dont think you understood me. Something happened to my heart first. My heart was changed first. Then I believed. That is my personal experience. It wasnt that i called on the Lord and then He changed me. Something happened inside of me first and then I looked to the Lord. Yes i was unrighteous before but then when God grabbed me He cleansed me
This is contrary to what scripture says. You heard, believed what you heard then your heart was changed that is the way scripture says it happens. Now I ask do you have the ability to measure the time it took for all this to happen or did this happen in the twinkle of an eye?

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 04:51 AM
While I see it as God desires all to come to repentance, but God also allows those to not believe. Why would God allow those to not believe? Simple answer is to demonstrate His power through it all.
yes, the verse clearly says "destined" , not "allowed". its hard to win an argument by using a different word to describe the word that has been written. just my humble opinion.

When i see "destined" i think "destined"

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 04:52 AM
To be destined not to believe is a lot different than being allowed not to believe.

See what I mean about redefining terms? It is given to some to believe (Philippians) and some are destined to unbelief (1 Peter)
OK I'll bite, show me the passages you are referring to in Philipians and 1 Peter.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 04:56 AM
yes, the verse clearly says "destined" , not "allowed". its hard to win an argument by using a different word to describe the word that has been written. just my humble opinion.

When i see "destined" i think "destined"
I don't have a problem with using the word destined as long as what is destined is spoken of in truth to what the scriptures teach. Christ is the only one destined and through Christ we are adopted into that destiny. But it is still all about Christ.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 05:00 AM
This is contrary to what scripture says. You heard, believed what you heard then your heart was changed that is the way scripture says it happens. Now I ask do you have the ability to measure the time it took for all this to happen or did this happen in the twinkle of an eye?

lol how are you going to theologically re-tell me what i experienced? look. something happened to me. Then i believed and turned to God. You can say whatever you want to believe but im telling you what i experienced and i am not alone on this. One of my favorite pastors Mark Driscoll told his wife before they were married that he was a christian too so she would date him(he really wasnt) in college one day he was reading the bible she had given him. He didnt really understand anything about jesus except that in all the pictures he was a wimp. He said opened and read a verse in romans that said:"and you have been called from among them to belong to Jesus Christ"

He said at that moment he just changed. The blinders came off and he was never the same.

In a moment i just changed. I didnt even know about repentance and faith/works or any of that because i never read my Bible or really knew what the gospel really was. When God changed my heart that moment, it was like seeing God for the first time. AFTER that moment i began to read and study and learn about Jesus.

One of the main reasons i beleive in reformed teaching is because what happened to me.

If you dont want to agree or if you think its contrary to Scripture i respect that, but dont try to retell me what happened to me just because it doesnt line up with your understanding of the Scriptures. there have been many other great proponents of our Christian faith (like Augustine) who would agree with what happened to me and how it came about so its not like im on some heretical island. I didnt fully know what the gospel was when i changed. I was changed and then i sought to know what happened to me

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 05:01 AM
OK I'll bite, show me the passages you are referring to in Philipians and 1 Peter.

Philippians 1:28-29 you will be saved—and that by God. 29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

1 Peter 2:7-8 But to those who do not believe,
"The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone, 8and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 05:14 AM
lol how are you going to theologically re-tell me what i experienced? look. something happened to me. Then i believed and turned to God. You can say whatever you want to believe but im telling you what i experienced and i am not alone on this. One of my favorite pastors Mark Driscoll told his wife before they were married that he was a christian too so she would date him(he really wasnt) in college one day he was reading the bible she had given him. He didnt really understand anything about jesus except that in all the pictures he was a wimp. He said opened and read a verse in romans that said:"and you have been called from among them to belong to Jesus Christ"

He said at that moment he just changed. The blinders came off and he was never the same.

In a moment i just changed. I didnt even know about repentance and faith/works or any of that because i never read my Bible or really knew what the gospel really was. When God changed my heart that moment, it was like seeing God for the first time. AFTER that moment i began to read and study and learn about Jesus.

One of the main reasons i beleive in reformed teaching is because what happened to me.

If you dont want to agree or if you think its contrary to Scripture i respect that, but dont try to retell me what happened to me just because it doesnt line up with your understanding of the Scriptures. there have been many other great proponents of our Christian faith (like Augustine) who would agree with what happened to me and how it came about so its not like im on some heretical island. I didnt fully know what the gospel was when i changed. I was changed and then i sought to know what happened to me
Well scripture is very clear on the matter. You heard the word, you believed the word and then your heart was changed. Same thing goes for your favorite Pastor. Believe what I say or not I really don't care if you except this, but this is what the scriptures say happens. Use the scriptures to show me differently if you wish.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 05:21 AM
Philippians 1:28-29 you will be saved—and that by God. 29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
Philippians 1

27 ¶Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 in no way alarmed by your opponents -- which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

Nice of you to cut verse 28 in half to make your point. We can clearly see from the context that yes salvation is from God, but this is talking about conducting oneself in a worthy manor while under persecution.


1 Peter 2:7-8 But to those who do not believe,
"The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone, 8and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
This is the same verses that started this discussion and does not prove that God picks some to not believe. This shows that the word of God is a stumbling block for those that don't believe. Gig difference between God making someone not believe here and someone stumbling because of the word.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 05:23 AM
Well scripture is very clear on the matter. You heard the word, you believed the word and then your heart was changed. Same thing goes for your favorite Pastor. Believe what I say or not I really don't care if you except this, but this is what the scriptures say happens. Use the scriptures to show me differently if you wish.

Whatever you say boss i see you are stuck in your interpretation. Just because you know the "words" in the Word doesnt mean your theology is correct. Perhaps there is indeed something deeper than what you think there is.

Augustine, one of the most influential writers of the Christian faith, believed in what i believe. Many of the greatest Christian preachers in history believe what i believe. And they drew their theology from Scripture just like you do. I get my theology from Scripture. I was called. God called me. I did not call Him. There is no need in showing you anything because i see you are stuck firm in your interpretation, which is fine, but there are many Christians out there who disagree with you, so i dont need to prove anything to you. Its not like im alone on an island making some bogus new age claim. the very ones who rose from the split from the catholic church believe what i believe. I know what happened to me and so does Jesus. I dont need to show you anything as if i have something to prove. You dont wanna believe me? thats fine. im tired of wasting my time typing trying to convince people to belive what i do. Im not going to sit here and play "scripture wars". people believe what they think is right. You think some of salvation is in the power of mans hands, i think its 100% in Gods hands. Lets not pretend like we havent heard the Scriptures from both sides already.:cool:

RogerW
Jan 15th 2009, 05:35 AM
This is the same verses that started this discussion and does not prove that God picks some to not believe. This shows that the word of God is a stumbling block for those that don't believe. Gig difference between God making someone not believe here and someone stumbling because of the word.

1 Peter 2:7-8 But to those who do not believe,
"The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone, 8and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."

The Jews were destined to stumble, rejecting Christ, that salvation would go unto all the nations of the world. However their stumbling over the Rock does not mean that they too cannot become saved, if they do not continue in unbelief they too can be saved through the proclamation of the gospel of salvation. Since the cross the power of salvation is by grace through faith through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. All who hear the Word, and receive the gift of saving faith will be saved, and it matters not what nation they come from...for now there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles, we, who are in Christ are one holy people unto the Lord.

Many Blessings,
RW

Jemand
Jan 15th 2009, 07:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reformedct
i dont think you understood me. Something happened to my heart first. My heart was changed first. Then I believed. That is my personal experience. It wasnt that i called on the Lord and then He changed me. Something happened inside of me first and then I looked to the Lord. Yes i was unrighteous before but then when God grabbed me He cleansed me



This is contrary to what scripture says. You heard, believed what you heard then your heart was changed that is the way scripture says it happens. Now I ask do you have the ability to measure the time it took for all this to happen or did this happen in the twinkle of an eye?

I had an experience very similar to the one described by reformedct. As a young person, I had been going to church for social reasons, but I did not at all believe the gospel message. And then one evening I was walking down the sidewalk downtown in a metropolis and one moment I was an unbelieving heathen and the next moment the Holy Spirit came over me, bore witness in my heart that the gospel is true, and I instantly became a born-again Christian. I bought a Bible and began reading and studying it with great enthusiasm praying every day for God to teach me His truths in the Bible and to protect me from doctrinal error. Some years and thousands of volumes of Old and New Testament exegesis, Hebrew and Greeks studies, Christian theology, Church history, and the history of the interpretation of the New Testament later, I am absolutely certain that John Calvin was very seriously in error in five major points (as in TULIP) of Christian doctrine.

Jemand
Jan 15th 2009, 07:17 AM
Whatever you say boss i see you are stuck in your interpretation. Just because you know the "words" in the Word doesnt mean your theology is correct. Perhaps there is indeed something deeper than what you think there is.

Augustine, one of the most influential writers of the Christian faith, believed in what i believe. Many of the greatest Christian preachers in history believe what i believe. And they drew their theology from Scripture just like you do. I get my theology from Scripture. I was called. God called me. I did not call Him. There is no need in showing you anything because i see you are stuck firm in your interpretation, which is fine, but there are many Christians out there who disagree with you, so i dont need to prove anything to you. Its not like im alone on an island making some bogus new age claim. the very ones who rose from the split from the catholic church believe what i believe. I know what happened to me and so does Jesus. I dont need to show you anything as if i have something to prove. You dont wanna believe me? thats fine. im tired of wasting my time typing trying to convince people to belive what i do. Im not going to sit here and play "scripture wars". people believe what they think is right. You think some of salvation is in the power of mans hands, i think its 100% in Gods hands. Lets not pretend like we havent heard the Scriptures from both sides already.:cool:

In all fairness, however, we do need to observe the fact that very much of what is known today as Reformed theology was new in the 16th century when it was first taught. We do not find any of it in the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and only a few bits and pieces of it in the later writings of Saint Augustine.

We do find in the Bible the concepts of God being sovereign, God having foreknowledge, and God predestining events, but these concepts must be viewed and interpreted in the context in which they are found and in the greater context of Scripture which explicitly teaches the fatal error of resisting the will of God.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 12:33 PM
Nope, not talking to just the Jews here, this is to all that do not believe. Think about it a little. this letter was written some thirty years after Jesus died and so the gospel has been spread greatly to both Jew and Gentile.

Hi again!

Is ther not a difference between who Paul is talking to, and who he is talking about?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 01:08 PM
So throw out the word doom, is the word of God a stumbling block to those that do not believe in Christ?

To the Jews yes.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 01:27 PM
This is contrary to what scripture says. You heard, believed what you heard then your heart was changed that is the way scripture says it happens. Now I ask do you have the ability to measure the time it took for all this to happen or did this happen in the twinkle of an eye?

In the parable of the sower.
Was the one who's heart is the good ground, was he born with a good heart? For the seed fell on the good ground.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 01:48 PM
lol how are you going to theologically re-tell me what i experienced? look. something happened to me. Then i believed and turned to God. You can say whatever you want to believe but im telling you what i experienced and i am not alone on this. One of my favorite pastors Mark Driscoll told his wife before they were married that he was a christian too so she would date him(he really wasnt) in college one day he was reading the bible she had given him. He didnt really understand anything about jesus except that in all the pictures he was a wimp. He said opened and read a verse in romans that said:"and you have been called from among them to belong to Jesus Christ"

He said at that moment he just changed. The blinders came off and he was never the same.

In a moment i just changed. I didnt even know about repentance and faith/works or any of that because i never read my Bible or really knew what the gospel really was. When God changed my heart that moment, it was like seeing God for the first time. AFTER that moment i began to read and study and learn about Jesus.

One of the main reasons i beleive in reformed teaching is because what happened to me.

If you dont want to agree or if you think its contrary to Scripture i respect that, but dont try to retell me what happened to me just because it doesnt line up with your understanding of the Scriptures. there have been many other great proponents of our Christian faith (like Augustine) who would agree with what happened to me and how it came about so its not like im on some heretical island. I didnt fully know what the gospel was when i changed. I was changed and then i sought to know what happened to me

Same type of experience with me.

11 years of age, I did not know anything Christian, but Christmas and Easter. None of my family, friends or even neighbours (that I knew of) were Christians, an none were church goers.

Then one day, as I was walking home from school, I was (best I can describe) consumed with this light, and filled with this sense of love. I just knew it was the Lord. From there on (without any human prompting) I went and found this church, attended most every meeting, saved up and bought a bible.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 01:56 PM
Well scripture is very clear on the matter. You heard the word, you believed the word and then your heart was changed. Same thing goes for your favorite Pastor. Believe what I say or not I really don't care if you except this, but this is what the scriptures say happens. Use the scriptures to show me differently if you wish.

Matt 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Matt 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Matt 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Matt 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Matt 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Matt 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Matt 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

It clearly says, that the good ground (good heart) received the seed.

Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 04:26 PM
Philippians 1

27 ¶Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 in no way alarmed by your opponents -- which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

Nice of you to cut verse 28 in half to make your point. We can clearly see from the context that yes salvation is from God, but this is talking about conducting oneself in a worthy manor while under persecution.


Ok, though all verses, whether one on it's own, or one surrounded by others are true, we will use the passage you post.

It is given by God to those who are saved to believe in Christ. There's no way around this fact.


This is the same verses that started this discussion and does not prove that God picks some to not believe. This shows that the word of God is a stumbling block for those that don't believe. Gig difference between God making someone not believe here and someone stumbling because of the word.

It shows they were destined by God for unbelief. Now, you may define destined as chose, that's your right. Myself, I shall go by what is said rather than what I want it to say.


The Jews were destined to stumble, rejecting Christ, that salvation would go unto all the nations of the world. However their stumbling over the Rock does not mean that they too cannot become saved, if they do not continue in unbelief they too can be saved through the proclamation of the gospel of salvation. Since the cross the power of salvation is by grace through faith through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. All who hear the Word, and receive the gift of saving faith will be saved, and it matters not what nation they come from...for now there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles, we, who are in Christ are one holy people unto the Lord.

But it was written to those who disbelieve, Jew or no. Peter begins the passage by saying "but to those who disbelieve" and ends it with "They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for."

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 04:39 PM
In all fairness, however, we do need to observe the fact that very much of what is known today as Reformed theology was new in the 16th century when it was first taught. We do not find any of it in the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and only a few bits and pieces of it in the later writings of Saint Augustine.

We do find in the Bible the concepts of God being sovereign, God having foreknowledge, and God predestining events, but these concepts must be viewed and interpreted in the context in which they are found and in the greater context of Scripture which explicitly teaches the fatal error of resisting the will of God.

thanks for the shared testimony jermand. I would like to say that i am loosley reformed, meaning that i dont totally deny the free will of man and i do not totally deny resistable grace or resisting the will of God. I believe every reformed teacher believed in something that i didnt agree with in some area. But i do hold on to much of the core beliefs. I actually dont like to refer to myself as a calvinist because my views are also fairly lined up with arminianism. I think both sides had truth and my view tries to bring together all Scriptures

Have a Blessed day:cool:

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 06:35 PM
To the Jews yes.
So are you saying that the word of God is only a stumbling block for the Jews?

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 06:37 PM
Same type of experience with me.

11 years of age, I did not know anything Christian, but Christmas and Easter. None of my family, friends or even neighbours (that I knew of) were Christians, an none were church goers.

Then one day, as I was walking home from school, I was (best I can describe) consumed with this light, and filled with this sense of love. I just knew it was the Lord. From there on (without any human prompting) I went and found this church, attended most every meeting, saved up and bought a bible.
Yes, here too you heard the gospel first as with every person that it drawn to God.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 06:40 PM
Matt 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Matt 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Matt 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Matt 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Matt 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Matt 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Matt 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

It clearly says, that the good ground (good heart) received the seed.

Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
It don't say they were born with a good heart. The bible tells us that all were enemies when Christ died for us. Now we also know that part of the job of the Holy Spirit is to quicken the word to us and change our hearts.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 06:46 PM
It don't say they were born with a good heart. The bible tells us that all were enemies when Christ died for us. Now we also know that part of the job of the Holy Spirit is to quicken the word to us and change our hearts.

so you agree that the Spirit did not produce good soil in those who did not bear fruit?

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 06:50 PM
Yes, here too you heard the gospel first as with every person that it drawn to God.


do you realize what you are doing? we keep telling you that the light penetrated our hearts first then we believed. We are not denying that we did not hear the gospel and believe. We are showing you that our hearts were changed first, THEN we sought the gospel and then we believed.

We keep saying something happened in the heart before understanding or even hearing the gospel

and then you come around and say, yes you heard the gospel first lol

you dont have to fully know or understand and believe the gospel to be born again. When my heart changed i did not understand the gospel. I had to study the Bible to find out what had happened to me. It wasnt like someone was preaching the gospel when i changed. It starts with the light shining in your heart. Thats why i believe unborn babies can enter heaven without hearing the gospel, because God can call whoever He wants wherever He wants however He wants. Abraham, Noah, and Moses did not have full knowledge of the gospel. They knew of the Messiah but they didnt know His name was going to be Jesus or all of those details, but they were saved because God called them

if everyone must hear and understand the gospel to be born again then there is no hope for mentally retarded, and the dumb, and those who are both physically deaf and blind. Also that would mean that every single human being that was ever born on this Earth who did not "hear the gospel" had no chance of being born of the Spirit. As Jesus clearly says unless you are born again you will by no means enter the kingdom of God.

If being born again can only happen if you hear the gospel then aborted babies and the disabled will all go to hell

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 07:04 PM
Ok, though all verses, whether one on it's own, or one surrounded by others are true, we will use the passage you post.

It is given by God to those who are saved to believe in Christ. There's no way around this fact.
Please spare the drama here. Taking scripture out of context is the most dangerous place we could ever find ourselves. You accused me of twisting words earlier in this thread yet you quote a verse and leave the entire context out of the verse plus didn't even quote the entire verse. That is twisting the scripture to make a case for your own need not exploring the scriptures to see what god is telling us.



It shows they were destined by God for unbelief. Now, you may define destined as chose, that's your right. Myself, I shall go by what is said rather than what I want it to say.



But it was written to those who disbelieve, Jew or no. Peter begins the passage by saying "but to those who disbelieve" and ends it with "They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for."

What is here in this scripture is not God hand picking some to not believe. This is God saying those that do not believe are destined to stumble over the truth of what the gospel says. You are reading into the verses so I am open to you showing me further how God is saying he is destining people to not believe by this verse. I come with an open mind, but we are going to have to look at in in context not a half verse here and part of a verse there.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 07:09 PM
so you agree that the Spirit did not produce good soil in those who did not bear fruit?
I am saying that God call through the spirit, but like we see in the gospel of John it says not all will receive that calling.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 07:13 PM
I am saying that God call through the spirit, but like we see in the gospel of John it says not all will receive that calling.

yes but you also just admitted that it is the Spirits job to change our hearts no? So the Spirit failed to do His job? God failed? If His job is to change our hearts and our hearts are not change, did He not do his job?


you dont have to fully know or understand and believe the gospel to be born again. When my heart changed i did not understand the gospel. I had to study the Bible to find out what had happened to me. It wasnt like someone was preaching the gospel when i changed. It starts with the light shining in your heart. Thats why i believe unborn babies can enter heaven without hearing the gospel, because God can call whoever He wants wherever He wants however He wants. Abraham, Noah, and Moses did not have full knowledge of the gospel. They knew of the Messiah but they didnt know His name was going to be Jesus or all of those details, but they were saved because God called them

if everyone must hear and understand the gospel to be born again then there is no hope for mentally retarded, and the dumb, and those who are both physically deaf and blind. Also that would mean that every single human being that was ever born on this Earth who did not "hear the gospel" had no chance of being born of the Spirit. As Jesus clearly says unless you are born again you will by no means enter the kingdom of God.

If being born again can only happen if you hear the gospel then aborted babies and the disabled will all go to hell

Jesus described the Spirit as a wind. those led by the Spirit are like the wind. You dont know where it comes from, you just see the effects

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 07:24 PM
do you realize what you are doing? we keep telling you that the light penetrated our hearts first then we believed. We are not denying that we did not hear the gospel and believe. We are showing you that our hearts were changed first, THEN we sought the gospel and then we believed.

We keep saying something happened in the heart before understanding or even hearing the gospel

and then you come around and say, yes you heard the gospel first lol

you dont have to fully know or understand and believe the gospel to be born again. When my heart changed i did not understand the gospel. I had to study the Bible to find out what had happened to me. It wasnt like someone was preaching the gospel when i changed. It starts with the light shining in your heart. Thats why i believe unborn babies can enter heaven without hearing the gospel, because God can call whoever He wants wherever He wants however He wants. Abraham, Noah, and Moses did not have full knowledge of the gospel. They knew of the Messiah but they didnt know His name was going to be Jesus or all of those details, but they were saved because God called them

if everyone must hear and understand the gospel to be born again then there is no hope for mentally retarded, and the dumb, and those who are both physically deaf and blind.
What is the job of the Holy Spirit, but to convict us of our need for a savior. How is that done?

1 Corinthians 2

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 ¶But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

No one is expected to know everything when they come to Christ. Peter made this very well known in his second letter. See 2 Peter 1:1-11

But the fact that all through the NT scripture says we hear, believe then receive a changed heart does not change anything on how you feel you came to Christ. You may have not seen it all happening that way and that is fine. I will trust in the way God says things happen rather than what I think or even what you think. This is the same thing as asking a fish if they know they are wet and if so when they became wet. They are too close to the situation to be able to tell the exact detail of it all.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 07:30 PM
What is the job of the Holy Spirit, but to convict us of our need for a savior. How is that done?

1 Corinthians 2

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 ¶But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

No one is expected to know everything when they come to Christ. Peter made this very well known in his second letter. See 2 Peter 1:1-11

But the fact that all through the NT scripture says we hear, believe then receive a changed heart does not change anything on how you feel you came to Christ. You may have not seen it all happening that way and that is fine. I will trust in the way God says things happen rather than what I think or even what you think. This is the same thing as asking a fish if they know they are wet and if so when they became wet. They are too close to the situation to be able to tell the exact detail of it all.

so in other words, your interpretation of the Scripture brings you to the conclusion that all aborted babies will go to hell since they have not heard and believed the gospel.

divaD
Jan 15th 2009, 07:33 PM
you dont have to fully know or understand and believe the gospel to be born again.

I agree, no one has to fully know or understand in order to be born again, but to state that someone doesn't even have to believe the gospel, yet can still be born again, well I totally disagree with that. That defies logic. How can someone be born again unto something they don't even believe? Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? Can you show some examples in Scriptures where a person was born again first, then believed the gospel later? Also I did note that you used the mentally challenged, the deaf and blind, etc in order to convey this concept, but I don't see how that explains it.

Perhaps I'm simply misunderstanding what you mean in the above quotes, and if so, I do apologize, but this is how I interpret what you're saying.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 07:39 PM
I agree, no one has to fully know or understand in order to be born again, but to state that someone doesn't even have to believe the gospel, yet can still be born again, well I totally disagree with that. That defies logic. How can someone be born again unto something they don't even believe? Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? Can you show some examples in Scriptures where a person was born again first, then believed the gospel later? Also I did note that you used the mentally challenged, the deaf and blind, etc in order to convey this concept, but I don't see how that explains it.

Perhaps I'm simply misunderstanding what you mean in the above quotes, and if so, I do apologize, but this is how I interpret what you're saying.


this is what i believe: the requirement to go to heaven is to be born again as Jesus said. It is my view from my own experience and from Scripture that God can quicken anyones spirit, even if they dont understand or know the full gospel. If everyone must know the gospel to be born again, every aborted baby will go to hell.

I dont have a lot of Scripture because i am still a young believer and i cant locate all verses. But if hearing and believing the gospel is what is needed prior to being born again, then all aborted babies and mentally challenged kids MUST go to hell unless God does a miracle and heal them.

Even if you believe babies are born sinless, it doesnt change the fact that they must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom.

i believe that faith in the gospel comes from a heart quickened by the Spirit. I believe the new heart is given prior to believing

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 07:48 PM
What is the job of the Holy Spirit, but to convict us of our need for a savior. How is that done?

1 Corinthians 2

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 ¶But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

No one is expected to know everything when they come to Christ. Peter made this very well known in his second letter. See 2 Peter 1:1-11

But the fact that all through the NT scripture says we hear, believe then receive a changed heart does not change anything on how you feel you came to Christ. You may have not seen it all happening that way and that is fine. I will trust in the way God says things happen rather than what I think or even what you think. This is the same thing as asking a fish if they know they are wet and if so when they became wet. They are too close to the situation to be able to tell the exact detail of it all.

thank you for this scripture. this is a passage which clearly says that a natural man CANNOT understand them. Not simply that it is difficult. It says he cannot understand them. This is why i believe the Spirit quikcens the spirit of the believer first, and then they believe

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 09:17 PM
Please spare the drama here. Taking scripture out of context is the most dangerous place we could ever find ourselves. You accused me of twisting words earlier in this thread yet you quote a verse and leave the entire context out of the verse plus didn't even quote the entire verse. That is twisting the scripture to make a case for your own need not exploring the scriptures to see what god is telling us.

:rolleyes:

If I post all of Philippians, the fact remains that it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him.

While I may choose one verse or even a part of a verse to show the point, I will not disagree with any Scripture. I believe in Philippians 1-3 just as much as Philippians 1:3. I don't pick and choose Scriptures to disagree with. I accept all the Scripture as fact.

So, with that said, do you agree that it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ to believe on him?




What is here in this scripture is not God hand picking some to not believe. This is God saying those that do not believe are destined to stumble over the truth of what the gospel says. You are reading into the verses so I am open to you showing me further how God is saying he is destining people to not believe by this verse. I come with an open mind, but we are going to have to look at in in context not a half verse here and part of a verse there.

Who does the destineding? (new word?)

God destined those who do not believe to stumble. Therefore, God has destined all who do not believe to not believe.

Is it God that gives eyes to see and ears to hear?

I mean, if you want to change the meaning of destine, that's your choice (but then, seeing that you would be destined to do what you do, then it's not really your choice :P )

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 10:33 PM
so in other words, your interpretation of the Scripture brings you to the conclusion that all aborted babies will go to hell since they have not heard and believed the gospel.
I never said that so please don't put words in my mouth. I can't give you a positive answer either way about aborted babies as the scriptures don't speak about them. If I were to fashion an opinion it would be sepculating. I don't do that so I will leave that up to God to decide what happens in those cases.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 10:45 PM
thank you for this scripture. this is a passage which clearly says that a natural man CANNOT understand them. Not simply that it is difficult. It says he cannot understand them. This is why i believe the Spirit quikcens the spirit of the believer first, and then they believe
The scriptures I quote show that the Holy Spirit call and speaks directly to your spirit. You nature before excepting Christ is to resist, hence forth the stumbling block Peter is talking about in 1 Peter 2:8. Once you receive that word and believe it is no longer a stumbling block, but rather the power of God as shown in 1 Corinthians 1:18 (this is the quickening part).

As far as the order is concerned Jesus shows it in this verse. Hear, believe and then he enters the heart.

Revelation 3

20 `Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Hears his voice is heeding the calling, opens the door is believing, then he enters quickens the word or in other words gives you a changed heart.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 10:49 PM
So are you saying that the word of God is only a stumbling block for the Jews?

Yes, to the Jews only.

They stumbled over the Gospel, because they were blind. They were the children of the promised One. They were waiting for the Messiah to come, and be the King of the Jews.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 10:58 PM
Yes, here too you heard the gospel first as with every person that it drawn to God.

But again you are wrong.

If Jesus had said to me on that day, before my experience "who do you say I AM", I guess I would have maybe answered, a baby in a manger or a man who did lots of good things and then died on a cross.

If you call that hearing the gospel, then :eek:

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 11:39 PM
:rolleyes:

If I post all of Philippians, the fact remains that it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him.

While I may choose one verse or even a part of a verse to show the point, I will not disagree with any Scripture. I believe in Philippians 1-3 just as much as Philippians 1:3. I don't pick and choose Scriptures to disagree with. I accept all the Scripture as fact.

So, with that said, do you agree that it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ to believe on him?


I never said that our salvation is not from God. I am saying you are not looking at these verses in context. God is not telling us here that he hand picked some for salvation and made them believe. Let's look again at these in context and compare them to how you are quoting them.

Here is what Paul wrote in context.
Philippians 1

27 ¶Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 in no way alarmed by your opponents -- which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

Here is how you quoted it out of context to make your point.

Philippians 1:28-29 you will be saved—and that by God. 29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

Paul is teaching that we need to stay steadfast in the gospel of Christ. We will be persecuted for the gospel and hated for our belief the same way Jesus told us we would be. We will be hated because the world hated him first. This is also saying that salvation is granted to those whom believe as well as destruction to those whom do not believe. It is a real stretch to make the case that these verses are teaching that God is granting salvation to only whom he chooses, unless these verses are taken out of context.

In fact these verses are a common way of Paul's, in his letters as for how he teaches that we are going to suffer to the sake of Christ and the spreading of the gospel.


Who does the destineding? (new word?)

God destined those who do not believe to stumble. Therefore, God has destined all who do not believe to not believe.

Is it God that gives eyes to see and ears to hear?

I mean, if you want to change the meaning of destine, that's your choice (but then, seeing that you would be destined to do what you do, then it's not really your choice :P )
I haven't changed the word destined anywhere. Those that do not believe in Christ are going to stumble because of the truth of the gospel. Now we need to ask what is the purpose for making them stumble. Is it to cause their destruction or is it to open their eyes to the fact that the gospel is here and is in deed the truth? If God desires that none should perish, but all to come to repentance then we can safely use logic to understand that God is using this to open the eyes of the unbeliever to the truth and giving them a chance to repent and believe.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 11:41 PM
Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Luke 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

Luke 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luke 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luke 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luke 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luke 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

Luke 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luke 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

Luke 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

Please tell me that you see the beautiful Gospel here!!!

Luke 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luke 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Who is our Neighbour?

Yes, all who we are near, but this story tells us, that Jesus Christ is our Neighbour!!

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 11:42 PM
Yes, to the Jews only.

They stumbled over the Gospel, because they were blind. They were the children of the promised One. They were waiting for the Messiah to come, and be the King of the Jews.
Nope, this is to all of the unbelievers all throughout the world. You are referring to this in the past tense, but these verses as with every verse in the bible still apply today.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 11:44 PM
But again you are wrong.

If Jesus had said to me on that day, before my experience "who do you say I AM", I guess I would have maybe answered, a baby in a manger or a man who did lots of good things and then died on a cross.

If you call that hearing the gospel, then :eek:
You knew the fact that Jesus died at Easter for the forgiveness of your sins. That is knowing from hearing. God said we are all without excuse and this case would not be any different.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 11:52 PM
Nope, this is to all of the unbelievers all throughout the world. You are referring to this in the past tense, but these verses as with every verse in the bible still apply today.

Sorry you cannot see the truth.

To the Gentiles the gospel is foolishness, not a stumbling block.

To stumble over something, you have to be on the path were the stumbling block is.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 15th 2009, 11:57 PM
You knew the fact that Jesus died at Easter for the forgiveness of your sins. That is knowing from hearing. God said we are all without excuse and this case would not be any different.

No I did not.

Why do you put God in a box?

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 12:47 AM
Sorry you cannot see the truth.
Why do you insult me? I thought we were having a nice conversation here and thus no need to be insulting and condescending in this way.


To the Gentiles the gospel is foolishness, not a stumbling block.

To stumble over something, you have to be on the path were the stumbling block is.
Scripture teaches us that there is no difference between Jew or Greek and yes Greek is referring to the gentiles. So if there is no difference between us then it is also a stumbling block to lost gentiles as well as foolishness to lost Jews.

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 12:49 AM
No I did not.

Why do you put God in a box?
Perhaps you can show me how I have put God in a box. I have simple stated what the scriptures say.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 16th 2009, 12:59 AM
Why do you insult me? I thought we were having a nice conversation here and thus no need to be insulting and condescending in this way.


Scripture teaches us that there is no difference between Jew or Greek and yes Greek is referring to the gentiles. So if there is no difference between us then it is also a stumbling block to lost gentiles as well as foolishness to lost Jews.

I was not aiming to insult you?

There are lots of truths that I don't see.

There is no difference between Jews or Greeks 'In Christ'

Those who are not 'in Christ' are different.

reformedct
Jan 16th 2009, 01:11 AM
The scriptures I quote show that the Holy Spirit call and speaks directly to your spirit. You nature before excepting Christ is to resist, hence forth the stumbling block Peter is talking about in 1 Peter 2:8. Once you receive that word and believe it is no longer a stumbling block, but rather the power of God as shown in 1 Corinthians 1:18 (this is the quickening part).

As far as the order is concerned Jesus shows it in this verse. Hear, believe and then he enters the heart.

Revelation 3

20 `Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Hears his voice is heeding the calling, opens the door is believing, then he enters quickens the word or in other words gives you a changed heart.

ok, well let me ask this. If what can be known is evident so that men are without excuse, does that mean that ervyone has the knowledge of the gospel inside of them? if so, why does God require us to witness, since everyone knows what they need to know?

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 01:16 AM
I was not aiming to insult you?

There are lots of truths that I don't see.

There is no difference between Jews or Greeks 'In Christ'

Those who are not 'in Christ' are different.
How are those not in Christ different. I see scripture saying that all not in Christ have the same fate. Those not with Christ are against Christ.

Matthew 12

30 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Luke 11

23 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 01:25 AM
Paul is teaching that we need to stay steadfast in the gospel of Christ. We will be persecuted for the gospel and hated for our belief the same way Jesus told us we would be. We will be hated because the world hated him first.

Agreed, Paul teaches that.


This is also saying that salvation is granted to those whom believe as well as destruction to those whom do not believe. It is a real stretch to make the case that these verses are teaching that God is granting salvation to only whom he chooses, unless these verses are taken out of context.

A stretch? No, I read the words as they are, it is others who must stretch it.

it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him

Let's get as literal as it gets.

It has been granted. What was granted?
To believe on Christ. Granted by Who?
Granted by God. Granted to who?
Granted to you. Who is you?
Those who are saved. Who are those who are saved?
Ah, here's the kicker....using your own words.
You stated "We will be hated because the world hated him first." Agreed. As Christ said "I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." (John 15:19)

It doesn't get more plain than that. Put them all together and you have...

To believe in Christ has been granted by God to those who Christ chosen out of this world.

Isn't it funny how Scripture confirms Scripture?


I haven't changed the word destined anywhere. Those that do not believe in Christ are going to stumble because of the truth of the gospel. Now we need to ask what is the purpose for making them stumble. Is it to cause their destruction or is it to open their eyes to the fact that the gospel is here and is in deed the truth? If God desires that none should perish, but all to come to repentance then we can safely use logic to understand that God is using this to open the eyes of the unbeliever to the truth and giving them a chance to repent and believe.


They stumble because they were destined to stumble. They don't believe because it (remember your words) was not granted to them to believe as Christ did not choose them out of this world. Once again, Scripture confirming Scripture.

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 01:27 AM
ok, well let me ask this. If what can be known is evident so that men are without excuse, does that mean that ervyone has the knowledge of the gospel inside of them? if so, why does God require us to witness, since everyone knows what they need to know?
Never said everyone has the knowledge inside them. The spirit testifies on behalf of Christ to all plus God has made it evident to all.

1 John 5

6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

Romans 1

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 01:43 AM
A stretch? No, I read the words as they are, it is others who must stretch it.

it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him

Let's get as literal as it gets.

It has been granted. What was granted?
To believe on Christ. Granted by Who?
Granted by God. Granted to who?
Granted to you. Who is you?
Those who are saved. Who are those who are saved?
Ah, here's the kicker....using your own words.
You stated "We will be hated because the world hated him first." Agreed. As Christ said "I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." (John 15:19)

It doesn't get more plain than that. Put them all together and you have...

To believe in Christ has been granted by God to those who Christ chosen out of this world.

Isn't it funny how Scripture confirms Scripture?
And yet you still insist in putting a couple half verses together and make a doctrine out of it.

Christ is the only one that God chose. All come through Christ period. God chose Christ not anyone of us. This entire world was made through Christ, for Christ, and was given to Christ. This has always been about Christ not you so quit taking a half verse here and there to make it look like God chose certain people when in reality God don't give a rip about anything but Christ.



They stumble because they were destined to stumble. They don't believe because it (remember your words) was not granted to them to believe as Christ did not choose them out of this world. Once again, Scripture confirming Scripture.
It don't say they were not granted to believe by Christ. This verse says nothing about Christ choosing anyone to believe in him or not.

You are twisting the scripture so bad to fit your doctrine I am beginning to wonder about you. Are you afraid to look at any of the scriptures for what they actually say or do you take half verses everywhere to make your point.

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 01:59 AM
You say God chose Christ not anyone of us.

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33)

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you (1 Thessalonians 1:4)

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
(2 Thessalonians 2:13)

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him (1 Peter 2:4)

I know, I know, when we disagree with Scripture, we must say "it is taken out of context" Go ahead, use the ultimate fall back. Use the excuse that is taught by those who disagree with Scripture. When Scripture says God chose, it didn't really mean it....

Scripture confirms Scripture. When Satan quoted a verse, Jesus didn't say "You took it out of context". Christ said, "it is also written...."

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 03:45 AM
You say God chose Christ not anyone of us.

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33)

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you (1 Thessalonians 1:4)

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
(2 Thessalonians 2:13)

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him (1 Peter 2:4)

I know, I know, when we disagree with Scripture, we must say "it is taken out of context" Go ahead, use the ultimate fall back. Use the excuse that is taught by those who disagree with Scripture. When Scripture says God chose, it didn't really mean it....

Scripture confirms Scripture. When Satan quoted a verse, Jesus didn't say "You took it out of context". Christ said, "it is also written...."
So you are saying God chose you over Christ then?

Why did God send Christ, if you were chosen before the world was even founded?

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 05:17 AM
So you are saying God chose you over Christ then?

Not over Christ. God chose those He saves to be in Christ, not over Him.


Why did God send Christ, if you were chosen before the world was even founded?

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22)

There is a correlation here. Why blood needs to be shed for the forgiveness of sins, I have no idea. But, I take it by faith that blood does need to be shed for sins to be forgiven. Could God forgive without the shedding of blood? I think He is all powerful, so He could, but His will included Christ dying for our sins. This is how He chose to forgive sins.

Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:28)

The perfect sacrifice of Christ is the end of blood needing to be shed for sins.

First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:8-10)

The law that God gave required something that did not please God nor was what God desired. Was the law God's will? Think that one through.

Christ came to do the Father's will. His Father's will was for Christ to die for the remission of sins, setting aside the first covenant to establish the second. By that will (the will of God) we (the chosen, saved, elect, etc...) have been made holy (made, not chosen to be) through the sacrifice of Christ.

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 09:48 PM
You say God chose Christ not anyone of us.

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33)

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you (1 Thessalonians 1:4)

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
(2 Thessalonians 2:13)

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him (1 Peter 2:4)

I know, I know, when we disagree with Scripture, we must say "it is taken out of context" Go ahead, use the ultimate fall back. Use the excuse that is taught by those who disagree with Scripture. When Scripture says God chose, it didn't really mean it....

Scripture confirms Scripture. When Satan quoted a verse, Jesus didn't say "You took it out of context". Christ said, "it is also written...."
While those are all great scriptures there is a major problem with the theory in believing God chooses who will believe and who won't.

We can agree that everything came into being through Jesus.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1

14 ¶And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So this is without a doubt Jesus.

Now comes the problem with this theory. God put all thing in subjection to Jesus.

Ephesians 1

22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

Hebrews 2

8 YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

1 Corinthians 15

27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

All things are put under the subjection of Jesus, but for how long?

1 Corinthians 15

24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

So if all things came into being through Jesus and are subject to Jesus and Jesus reigns until all things are put under his feet with the last being death. Then and only then is the kingdom handed over to God the father and Jesus becomes subjected to God the father himself, how is it possible for God the father to hand pick who believe and who does not believe if all things are under Jesus' subjection?

You see God the father does not lie and if he says all authority and rule are subject to Jesus then God the father will not usurp that authority from Jesus.

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 10:35 PM
But you forget the first verse you posted.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So when Christ said "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.", he was talking of the Father giving Him ones that are not to be lost.

If Christ loses one, Christ failed.
If all are given to Christ, then all are saved, or Christ failed.

Christ, who is The Word, which means He is God, cannot fail. Therefore, it is not all people that are given to Him, but only those who are born again.

You see God the father does not lie and if he says Christ will save those He gave to Christ then God the father will not make it so that Christ fails.

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 10:57 PM
But you forget the first verse you posted.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So when Christ said "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.", he was talking of the Father giving Him ones that are not to be lost.

If Christ loses one, Christ failed.
If all are given to Christ, then all are saved, or Christ failed.

Christ, who is The Word, which means He is God, cannot fail. Therefore, it is not all people that are given to Him, but only those who are born again.

You see God the father does not lie and if he says Christ will save those He gave to Christ then God the father will not make it so that Christ fails.
The father desire all to be saved as it says in 2 Peter 3:9 so you are saying Jesus fails if even one person perishes then. Or is it rather that whomsoever believe in Jesus as the Christ will be saved.

If all things came to be through Jesus and Jesus himself says any who hear and believe he will enter. So that would say that salvation is avaible to anyone rather than just a select few.

Revelation 3

20 `Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
21 `He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Everything is subject to Jesus so is Jesus lying when he said this?

threebigrocks
Jan 16th 2009, 11:00 PM
But you forget the first verse you posted.



Yeah, but....
Yeah, but....

:rolleyes:

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 11:06 PM
The father desire all to be saved as it says in 2 Peter 3:9 so you are saying Jesus fails if even one person perishes then. Or is it rather that whomsoever believe in Jesus as the Christ will be saved.

Christ said And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day

For Christ not to fail, He would have to do the will of His father, which is to lose none that His Father gave him.

Now, the desire of God is that all be saved. However, that is not the will of God.

Then, "whomsoever believe in Jesus as the Christ will be saved" are those that are given to Christ by God.


If all things came to be through Jesus and Jesus himself says any who hear and believe he will enter. So that would say that salvation is avaible to anyone rather than just a select few.

Revelation 3

20 `Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
21 `He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Everything is subject to Jesus so is Jesus lying when he said this?


Let God be true and every man a liar. Who is it that opens eyes and ears? God, of course. Who is it that God grants belief to? Those who hear and believe.

Christ did not lie, all those that were given to Him by God will come to Him.

threebigrocks
Jan 16th 2009, 11:10 PM
Thing is there Yuke - how can the Father give anyone to the Son if the only way to the Father is through the Son? Wouldn't one have to have already believe on the One the Father sent in order to be given to the Son by the Father?

All things through Christ. There is no other way.

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 11:14 PM
Yeah, but....
Yeah, but....

:rolleyes:

This is what happens when one finds they disagree with the Scripture. They say nothing coherent and need to resort to insults and mockery.

It's ok, TBR, I forgive you. :kiss:

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 11:17 PM
Thing is there Yuke - how can the Father give anyone to the Son if the only way to the Father is through the Son? Wouldn't one have to have already believe on the One the Father sent in order to be given to the Son by the Father?

All things through Christ. There is no other way.

The Father gave us to Christ while we were yet sinners and unbelievers. That whole foreordained, predestined thing.

God gives us to Christ. Christ saves us. Christ doesn't lose one. We come to the Father through Christ.

threebigrocks
Jan 16th 2009, 11:22 PM
John 3
14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



Someone mentioned a few posts back about the Spirit and the blowing of the wind. It's also here in John 3 in Jesus' reply to Nicodemus.



5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."



If you aren't born of the Spirit, you can't know where it is Christ came from or where it is that He is going. Only spirit can discern the working of the Spirit. Flesh cannot. Simple as that.


How are we born again? By believing.




I too had the pow moment when I came to faith. Sat under teachings for 30 years. Heard the Word. It wasn't until the Holy Spirit quickened me did any of it mean anything. It isn't until we are born again that we can know these things. reformedct don't take what has been said as condemation of your testimony, as sometimes we look back after a time and then we are reminded of those little times that the Word was put in front of us. Happened to me too where it was more than sitting in a church pew cause my parents made me go to church. ;)

threebigrocks
Jan 16th 2009, 11:23 PM
The Father gave us to Christ while we were yet sinners and unbelievers. That whole foreordained, predestined thing.

God gives us to Christ. Christ saves us. Christ doesn't lose one. We come to the Father through Christ.

Where does it say the Father gave us to the Son while we were sinners? Guess I saw it as God gave us the Son, and it's up to us to believe.

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 11:27 PM
For Christ not to fail, He would have to do the will of His father, which is to lose none that His Father gave him.
How can God the father give Jesus something that already is Jesus'. God the father would have to usurp Jesus' authority in order to give him certain people. The word says all things came into being through Jesus and are subject to Jesus. So if Jesus made it all then it all belongs to Jesus and the father can't give it to him twice.

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 11:36 PM
Where does it say the Father gave us to the Son while we were sinners? Guess I saw it as God gave us the Son, and it's up to us to believe.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now, having been chosen before the foundation of the world, then we were given to Christ while we were still sinners.

shepherdsword
Jan 16th 2009, 11:39 PM
Yeah, but....
Yeah, but....

:rolleyes:


That had me rotfl.:rofl:


no offense yuke;)

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 11:41 PM
How can God the father give Jesus something that already is Jesus'. God the father would have to usurp Jesus' authority in order to give him certain people. The word says all things came into being through Jesus and are subject to Jesus. So if Jesus made it all then it all belongs to Jesus and the father can't give it to him twice.

If what you said is true, then you have universalism.

Christ will lose none the Father gave Him. If the Father gave Him all, then all shall be saved.

It's either you are right and universalism is true, or you are incorrect and some will be condemned.

Before the creation, God chose who would be given to Christ. Those that God gave Christ, He will lose none, for that is the will of God.

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 11:58 PM
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now, having been chosen before the foundation of the world, then we were given to Christ while we were still sinners.
Sorry you are wrong in your interpretation again. God chose Christ at the foundation of the world. That is why all things were made through Christ and given to Christ. We people that believe in Christ are give the power to be adopted sons of God's. See it all points back to God choosing Christ not God choosing you. Take a look around and everything you see if for Jesus, for the one God is well pleased in. Because all belong to Jesus is the reason we can be adopted into God's family by Jesus, but if someone doesn't choose Jesus they are not adopted in.

Yukerboy
Jan 17th 2009, 12:05 AM
Sorry you are wrong in your interpretation again. God chose Christ at the foundation of the world. That is why all things were made through Christ and given to Christ. We people that believe in Christ are give the power to be adopted sons of God's. See it all points back to God choosing Christ not God choosing you. Take a look around and everything you see if for Jesus, for the one God is well pleased in. Because all belong to Jesus is the reason we can be adopted into God's family by Jesus, but if someone doesn't choose Jesus they are not adopted in.

Sorry you are wrong in your interpretation again.

he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.
As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.

Many more references if you want them.

Those aren't my words or my interpreation, but Scripture alone.

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 12:46 AM
at the end of the day we must agree on this:

God desires all to repent

those who believe are called the elect

We may argue about how it happens but the fact remains that the believers are the elect.

Also we are not on our own in salvation. Jesus is holding on to us and it is the Fathers will that HE does not lose one. Notice the charge of responsibility on Jesus to hold on to His people

So we can all agree:

God desires all to repent
those who believe are the elect
Jesus has been charged by the Father not to lose one of us

as a reformed believer i strongly agree that we must choose God
I also strongly believe that those who choose God must confess and give glory to God for choosing them. It is both, those who choose are chosen. Whether you believe they are chosen because of that choosing Him or if they are chosen unconditionally, we must agree that there is both a sense in which we must choose and a sense in which we are chosen

Yukerboy
Jan 17th 2009, 01:10 AM
So we can all agree:

God desires all to repent
those who believe are the elect
Jesus has been charged by the Father not to lose one of us


That is my point. It is in Scripture, therefore it must be true. However, too many are saying that just because it is in Scripture doesn't mean it is true.

Look at your original post on 1 Peter 2:8.

People are here saying that when God said "They stumble because they disobey the word,(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%202:8;&version=47;#cen-ESV-30391B)) as they were destined to do." that it didn't really mean destine. It is difficult to change one's belief, but when one is confronted with Scripture that disagrees with what they beleive, then change the belief they should. All Scripture (whether it be a sentence, verse, passage, chapter, book, testament, or the whole Bible) is profitable for reproof, for correction, for doctrine.



as a reformed believer i strongly agree that we must choose God
I also strongly believe that those who choose God must confess and give glory to God for choosing them. It is both, those who choose are chosen. Whether you believe they are chosen because of that choosing Him or if they are chosen unconditionally, we must agree that there is both a sense in which we must choose and a sense in which we are chosen


As a reformed believer, I believe that man is so dead in their sins and totally depraved that they cannot choose God.

Maybe your definition of being a reformed believer is different than mine. :confused

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 01:16 AM
That is my point. It is in Scripture, therefore it must be true. However, too many are saying that just because it is in Scripture doesn't mean it is true.

Look at your original post on 1 Peter 2:8.

People are here saying that when God said "They stumble because they disobey the word,(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%202:8;&version=47;#cen-ESV-30391B)) as they were destined to do." that it didn't really mean destine. It is difficult to change one's belief, but when one is confronted with Scripture that disagrees with what they beleive, then change the belief they should. All Scripture (whether it be a sentence, verse, passage, chapter, book, testament, or the whole Bible) is profitable for reproof, for correction, for doctrine.



As a reformed believer, I believe that man is so dead in their sins and totally depraved that they cannot choose God.

Maybe your definition of being a reformed believer is different than mine. :confused


No i definetly agree with you. God has mercy on whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.

it is my position that those who have truly believed on God have only done so because God first chose them before they had done anything good or bad.

As Augustine said:

"God does not choose us because we believe, but that we may believe"

Yukerboy
Jan 17th 2009, 01:20 AM
No i definetly agree with you.

Shhh, don't let the others hear you say that. ;)

RogerW
Jan 17th 2009, 02:12 AM
at the end of the day we must agree on this:

God desires all to repent

those who believe are called the elect

We may argue about how it happens but the fact remains that the believers are the elect.

Also we are not on our own in salvation. Jesus is holding on to us and it is the Fathers will that HE does not lose one. Notice the charge of responsibility on Jesus to hold on to His people

So we can all agree:

God desires all to repent
those who believe are the elect
Jesus has been charged by the Father not to lose one of us

as a reformed believer i strongly agree that we must choose God
I also strongly believe that those who choose God must confess and give glory to God for choosing them. It is both, those who choose are chosen. Whether you believe they are chosen because of that choosing Him or if they are chosen unconditionally, we must agree that there is both a sense in which we must choose and a sense in which we are chosen

Hi Reformer,

I would say this slightly different. Those who are the elect are those who believe. Who will believe? Those whom He has chosen. Yes, these will choose God, but only because God first chose them (2Th 2:13; 1Pe 2:9). This is a very important distinction to make, for no man can choose Christ unless He first enables them. Salvation is of the Lord...all of Him, none of man.

Many Blessings,
RW

threebigrocks
Jan 17th 2009, 04:15 AM
Closing this thread pending review.