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reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 02:29 AM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right?? how do you know your interpretation is right?? how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol


So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?


i personally look at fruit and respect of Scripture. Does the person (or do i) hold a high view of Scripture, as the only authoritative Word of God? Do they interpret literally or do they have some weird new trajectory hermaneutic?(Bell/Mclaren) Also what is the temperment of that person? Are they like Jesus? Or are they mean-spirited, finger pointing tighty religious in personality? Ive learned for the most part that people who yell all the time OR TYPE LIKE THIS are normally off. So that is my view. Do they stand under the Bible in humility or over it looking down? Do they change as society does or do they stay the same throughout? And can you always sense a feeling of love and concern and a connection with Jesus from them? Or do they just like to argue all the time disrespectfully?

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 02:35 AM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right?? how do you know your interpretation is right?? how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol


So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?

Reconcile your doctrine with "all" of Scripture.

TrustingFollower
Jan 15th 2009, 02:37 AM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right?? how do you know your interpretation is right?? how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol


So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?
The only way to have the right doctrine is to humble ourselves and let the Holy Spirit dictate doctrine. We have to pray and submit to the control that is truly God's and quit listening to what men tell us. Paul spoke about this in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 we can only know when the Holy Spirit gives us the revelation right from God.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 02:40 AM
The only way to have the right doctrine is to humble ourselves and let the Holy Spirit dictate doctrine. We have to pray and submit to the control that is truly God's and quit listening to what men tell us. Paul spoke about this in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 we can only know when the Holy Spirit gives us the revelation right from God.

But how do you know you have recieved revelation? What if you say you are folowing the Spirit and i say i am also following the Spirit and we end up in two different places? How do we know whose right/wrong?

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 03:05 AM
But how do you know you have recieved revelation? What if you say you are folowing the Spirit and i say i am also following the Spirit and we end up in two different places? How do we know whose right/wrong?

When God says "You were right here here and here, but wrong here here and there." :lol:

However, like Butch said, read all the Scripture. If one person says anything that contradicts even a verse, that's fine, but the Scripture needs to show why their view is right and that the seeming contradiction is not a contradiction.

When Satan quoted Scripture, Christ didn't call him a liar or say it was wrong. Christ quoted more Scripture to show the fallacy.

Steve M
Jan 15th 2009, 02:43 PM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right?? how do you know your interpretation is right?? how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol


So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?


i personally look at fruit and respect of Scripture. Does the person (or do i) hold a high view of Scripture, as the only authoritative Word of God? Do they interpret literally or do they have some weird new trajectory hermaneutic?(Bell/Mclaren) Also what is the temperment of that person? Are they like Jesus? Or are they mean-spirited, finger pointing tighty religious in personality? Ive learned for the most part that people who yell all the time OR TYPE LIKE THIS are normally off. So that is my view. Do they stand under the Bible in humility or over it looking down? Do they change as society does or do they stay the same throughout? And can you always sense a feeling of love and concern and a connection with Jesus from them? Or do they just like to argue all the time disrespectfully?
Good question.

Here's my rule of thumb; I do the best I can to read all the scripture, to examine it, and to get it right the first time through.

But I always try to stay mindful that I am a man, I am fallible, and I could get it wrong. So I come here and listen carefully. I try not to come here just to yell my position over and over, but to consider other ideas, to try to search out the truth.

Paul spoke of a noble spirit;


Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

I try to do this. When I hear a new idea I try to search the scriptures to see if it is so.

Some of my ideas become reinforced the more I look at scripture. Some become more and more questionable. I've even had to change some as it became clear they weren't right.

But at all things; the scripture is my basis and foundation.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 04:42 PM
That’s a good question. How does one know when they are right or wrong? The easy answer would be that their doctrine has to agree with ALL the scriptures has to say about any subject. That’s correct but easier said than done. If everyone who said they were lead by the Spirit were lead by the Spirit, they would all come to the same conclusions. But we know that is never going to happen. So that means that there are many who say they are lead by the Spirit but are not.


So, you are saying that those who are incorrect in the tiniest bit are not led by the Spirit and therefore condemned.

When Paul confronted Peter, Paul was led by the Spirit, but make no mistake, The Spirit never left nor forsook Peter. He did as he was led by the Spirit to do.


Just look at some threads going on at this very moment. There’s one side that is very right and the other side that is very wrong about their doctrines. I honestly just skim through threads of that nature and just shake my head. It’s amazing to me that we all call ourselves Christians yet can’t even harmonize the most basic of beliefs. Are we saved by something we do or believe or by God alone? LOL. So basic but such contoversy. OSAS or not? LOL, so basic but such controversy.

Some people need to hear one and the other. I would have never come to Christ had I thought it was OSAS, but knowing that POTS is true now doesn't make it wrong that I thought NOSAS. As the Spirit leads, the Christian will go.


It all really comes down to us. How do we approach the bible? Is it the ultimate authority and infallable? Are we going to listen to it and let it teach us? HA!! Again easier said than done. EVERYONE here will say “yes, I let the word of God teach me”. Noone will tell you different. Everyone that hold onto their main beliefs think that they are following what the bible says. A great example is the “how do we become saved?” issue. Everyone who holds to the doctrine of free will just know for a fact that the bible teaches that we can choose to accept or reject Christ. Everyone who holds to the doctrine of God alone saves just know for a fact that the bible teaches that we can’t choose to follow Christ or that faith helps in salvation.

Yes let's look at a passage where some may be thinking one thing and the Scripture screams another.

Someone (not naming names) may say "Many will think they are right when Christ comes to rapture us. But most will realize when they are left that they were wrong."

Matthew 24:37-40
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I ask, when the flood waters came, who was taken? Who was left? Christ did say that "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.", correct?


All I can say to those not believing what God says is this. Good luck.

I find no random chance in the Bible, so I say to you, may God bless you.

Vhayes
Jan 15th 2009, 04:57 PM
This is just me and I've been known to be wrong on the past, so...

Our Christian life is ever growing. When I was a small child, I knew how to ride a bike but I didn't know how to drive a car. As I grew up and it became necessary for me to drive a car, lessons were provided and I learned the skill sets necessary to drive. When I was 8, I didn't need to know how to drive. When I was 18, I DID need to know how to drive in order to get to and from work, etc.

I think "doctrine" is the same. If I NEED to know something, I will be led into truth by study and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. God knows what we need, when we need it. While I believe the doctrine of Eternal Security was imperative for me to know at a particular point in my life, it may be that another does not have that particular need but MUST know about the Trinity or Baptism.

Not sure if that makes sense or not - I don't think any of us have a complete knowledge of the total "Truth" - not even in any given aspect of it. We are given what we need at the time to develop our growth in the way God knows is best.

faithfulfriend
Jan 15th 2009, 05:07 PM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right??

The Bible is right, and God is right. In order to find out a doctrine must be tested against the tenure of all the scriptures. We must rightly divide the word of truth.



how do you know your interpretation is right??

II Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

There is no "your" interpretation and "my" interpretation. The Bible is meant to be understood as one doctrine, one truth, one faith. God didn't write the Bible for men to come up with their own conclusions, doctrines, and beliefs.


how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol

Not everybody is led by the Spirit. Just because an individual claims to be led, doesn't mean it is so. The Bible promises in John:

John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth"

Obviously those who have the spirit will be led into ALL truth. That's why this belief that "nobody knows all truth" is a deception from the Devil.



So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?

Majority acceptance of a doctrine does not make it true. Millions of people in the early days believed the Earth was flat....it was not so. The number of people who follow a belief does not determine whether or not it is true.



i personally look at fruit and respect of Scripture. Does the person (or do i) hold a high view of Scripture, as the only authoritative Word of God? Do they interpret literally or do they have some weird new trajectory hermaneutic?(Bell/Mclaren) Also what is the temperment of that person? Are they like Jesus? Or are they mean-spirited, finger pointing tighty religious in personality? Ive learned for the most part that people who yell all the time OR TYPE LIKE THIS are normally off. So that is my view. Do they stand under the Bible in humility or over it looking down? Do they change as society does or do they stay the same throughout? And can you always sense a feeling of love and concern and a connection with Jesus from them? Or do they just like to argue all the time disrespectfully?

The truth can be revealed to anyone who is willing. Good commentaries are Adam Clarkes, Matthew Henry, and Halleys Bible Handbook. They don't contain all truth, but it's a start.

RogerW
Jan 15th 2009, 05:50 PM
In trying to determine whether or not we have rightly divided (2Ti 2:15) the Word of truth can be difficult because of the many opinions we have. To Paul the most important aspect of our understanding of truth is determined by our foundation (1Co 3:11; Ep 2:20). Our foundation will determine all of doctine, if the foundation is wrong, our doctrine will be wrong.

This gets a bit murky because we all say we build on the foundation of Christ. What do we mean by that? For some the foundation of Christ will be Christ plus our response to Him. But the truthfulness of doctrine does not rely upon the response of man. Without realizing, our foundation has become the foundation of Christ plus man.

A doctrine that builds on the foundation of Christ plus man's response to Him, is a doctrine that not only robs God of all glory, but also makes Christ dependent upon fallen man for salvation.

How do I know whether or not my doctrine is biblical? Is the True Foundation of my doctrine Christ alone, grace alone, Scripture alone, faith alone, to the glory of God alone...or does my doctrine make man a co-worker or co-regent with Christ in any way? In other words if my doctrine is even in the least bit man-centered, then it is a doctrine coming from the mind of man. Therefore, as a starting place I try to make sure that my understanding of doctrine is God-centered. When I find my understanding of certain doctrine appears to give man some of the glory that rightly belongs to God alone, then my understanding of doctrine is not biblical and must be discarded.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Jan 15th 2009, 06:02 PM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right?? how do you know your interpretation is right?? how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol


So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?


i personally look at fruit and respect of Scripture. Does the person (or do i) hold a high view of Scripture, as the only authoritative Word of God? Do they interpret literally or do they have some weird new trajectory hermaneutic?(Bell/Mclaren) Also what is the temperment of that person? Are they like Jesus? Or are they mean-spirited, finger pointing tighty religious in personality? Ive learned for the most part that people who yell all the time OR TYPE LIKE THIS are normally off. So that is my view. Do they stand under the Bible in humility or over it looking down? Do they change as society does or do they stay the same throughout? And can you always sense a feeling of love and concern and a connection with Jesus from them? Or do they just like to argue all the time disrespectfully?You can find disrespectful people on both sides of any debate and you can find humble, respectful people on both sides of any debate, so how can you use that as a gauge for who is right or wrong?

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 15th 2009, 06:20 PM
In trying to determine whether or not we have rightly divided (2Ti 2:15) the Word of truth can be difficult because of the many opinions we have. To Paul the most important aspect of our understanding of truth is determined by our foundation (1Co 3:11; Ep 2:20). Our foundation will determine all of doctine, if the foundation is wrong, our doctrine will be wrong.

This gets a bit murky because we all say we build on the foundation of Christ. What do we mean by that? For some the foundation of Christ will be Christ plus our response to Him. But the truthfulness of doctrine does not rely upon the response of man. Without realizing, our foundation has become the foundation of Christ plus man.

A doctrine that builds on the foundation of Christ plus man's response to Him, is a doctrine that not only robs God of all glory, but also makes Christ dependent upon fallen man for salvation.

How do I know whether or not my doctrine is biblical? Is the True Foundation of my doctrine Christ alone, grace alone, Scripture alone, faith alone, to the glory of God alone...or does my doctrine make man a co-worker or co-regent with Christ in any way? In other words if my doctrine is even in the least bit man-centered, then it is a doctrine coming from the mind of man. Therefore, as a starting place I try to make sure that my understanding of doctrine is God-centered. When I find my understanding of certain doctrine appears to give man some of the glory that rightly belongs to God alone, then my understanding of doctrine is not biblical and must be discarded.

Many Blessings,
RW
------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent post and yes I agree.. the foundation is 'Jesus Christ" its all about God.. and Him alone...

Listen to Pauls Words Here...

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

this the True Christ.. Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh..

and when He is made the foundation.. its about God... Your life is about what He has done for you.... and you will testify to it.. thru the Power of the Holy Ghost..

I posted in another thread about His Chastisement in my life.. and this was the major reason for His discipline in my life as a New Christian.. because I had 'slowly' progressed into what He had done in my life to a 'man centered' type of salvation and what I could do and what I've done... He Gently turned me around again to get the focus back On Him .. and what He did and will continue to do in my life... with the focus all pointing towards what He did on Calvary.. its because of that I exist today and His Unmerited Favor and Grace in my life.. and its the fact the He Loved me first... those who have a God centered foundation will understand this.......

It's because of Him I exist today...

and the foundation must be in Him.. Jesus Christ, and not man centered religous works or theology... and when Its IN HIM.. then you will 'know' and understand... He will HELP you and GIVE YOU strenth and Widsom to understand... For He is Humble and Meek and very Patient and His Burden is Light and not Heavy......... He loves you! amen and amen..

Jemand
Jan 15th 2009, 07:10 PM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right?? how do you know your interpretation is right?? how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol


So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?


i personally look at fruit and respect of Scripture. Does the person (or do i) hold a high view of Scripture, as the only authoritative Word of God? Do they interpret literally or do they have some weird new trajectory hermaneutic?(Bell/Mclaren) Also what is the temperment of that person? Are they like Jesus? Or are they mean-spirited, finger pointing tighty religious in personality? Ive learned for the most part that people who yell all the time OR TYPE LIKE THIS are normally off. So that is my view. Do they stand under the Bible in humility or over it looking down? Do they change as society does or do they stay the same throughout? And can you always sense a feeling of love and concern and a connection with Jesus from them? Or do they just like to argue all the time disrespectfully?

First of all, it is critically important that we separate the doctrine from the man teaching it or advocating for it. The truth is the truth regardless of the man; and false doctrine is false doctrine regardless of the man.

Secondly, the Holy Spirit is not a respecter of persons; He has taught the very same truths and interpretations of them to Christians willing to receive them throughout the history of the Church. Other spirits have taught other Christians a vast multitude of wrong and conflicting doctrines. Every true doctrine can be found being taught throughout the history of the Church; they are generally accompanied by false doctrines, but the true doctrines are there in their midst. Therefore, a good test for the truth of any doctrine taught today is whether or not it is found being taught throughout the history of the Church. If it is not, it is a spurious and false doctrine—as are very many doctrines being taught and advocated for today. If it is found being taught throughout the history of the Church, further tests must be applied to it because a number of false doctrines have been taught throughout the history of the Church.

Once it has been established that a doctrine has been taught throughout the history of the church, all of the other relevant facts must be considered because, in order for any doctrine to be true, it must be in harmony with all of the facts.

Emanate
Jan 15th 2009, 07:17 PM
This is just me and I've been known to be wrong on the past


I do not recall that event.

Emanate
Jan 15th 2009, 07:24 PM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right?? how do you know your interpretation is right?? how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol


So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?


i personally look at fruit and respect of Scripture. Does the person (or do i) hold a high view of Scripture, as the only authoritative Word of God? Do they interpret literally or do they have some weird new trajectory hermaneutic?(Bell/Mclaren) Also what is the temperment of that person? Are they like Jesus? Or are they mean-spirited, finger pointing tighty religious in personality? Ive learned for the most part that people who yell all the time OR TYPE LIKE THIS are normally off. So that is my view. Do they stand under the Bible in humility or over it looking down? Do they change as society does or do they stay the same throughout? And can you always sense a feeling of love and concern and a connection with Jesus from them? Or do they just like to argue all the time disrespectfully?


A marvelous question.

We on this board of diamterically opposed views of dcotrine in some areas and we all know that we are right :D. We will be surprised when we found out where our error was, and where it was not. Doctrine can be very divisive and at the same time very binding to one another. We must always keep in mind that our doctrine will not save us. Our salvation rests solely on the accomplished work of Messiah. When doctrinal disputations arise, as they will and do, we must always keep or mind on the prize - the high calling of God in Messiah Y'shua.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 07:25 PM
This is just me and I've been known to be wrong on the past, so...

Our Christian life is ever growing. When I was a small child, I knew how to ride a bike but I didn't know how to drive a car. As I grew up and it became necessary for me to drive a car, lessons were provided and I learned the skill sets necessary to drive. When I was 8, I didn't need to know how to drive. When I was 18, I DID need to know how to drive in order to get to and from work, etc.

I think "doctrine" is the same. If I NEED to know something, I will be led into truth by study and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. God knows what we need, when we need it. While I believe the doctrine of Eternal Security was imperative for me to know at a particular point in my life, it may be that another does not have that particular need but MUST know about the Trinity or Baptism.

Not sure if that makes sense or not - I don't think any of us have a complete knowledge of the total "Truth" - not even in any given aspect of it. We are given what we need at the time to develop our growth in the way God knows is best.

yes, security was VERY important for me as well. When i first got saved i didnt understand these things, so i was ALWAYS miserable or paranoid. I never knew if i had done enough good works. And then when i was resting from working, was that sin? How long can i rest before i do another good thing? If i do good for 70 years but then do something bad will i go to hell? I had a ton of questions. I couldnt even focus on God because the focus was on me and how well i was performing. I had real high ups when i obeyed (pride) and depressing lows if i stumbled. I actually would get so frustrated that i would run back to old sins in an attempt to just forget it all, but because of what happened in me the sin was like drinking vomit and i hated it. I was stuck. I hated sin yet i hated this works-based relationship with God

As someone said earlier the foundation is Christ. Once i started focusing on Christ, i began to live in freedom. I am not perfect but i am experiencing victory over sinful habits that once enslaved me by simply focusing on Him. Its like a little boy putting on his dads shoes. I just watch my Heavenly Father and try to be like Him by the power He gives me

My current conviction is that the focus is on Jesus. He is the foundation and cornerstone. Any interpretation that includes Christ alone sounds right to me, although im sure some here will disagree. But lets not get too off subject, which is how can we know if we are right:hmm:

revrobor
Jan 15th 2009, 07:56 PM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is?

The problem here is you are asking people who come from different denominational backgrounds and are more than likely more devoted to their denomination and its interpretation of Scripture than the are to actual Biblical truth. The Bible tells us to ask for wisdom - not from people but from God. He inspired the Book and He can tell you what it means. From people you will get only what they have been taught (thus the hundreds of conflicting doctrines) rather than what Scripture actually means. God is perfectly capable of speaking to you so why put yourself through all the confusion by asking those who have been brainwashed into conflicting interpretations? This will mean of course putting your trust solely in God.

Veretax
Jan 15th 2009, 08:04 PM
Psalm 119 is a pretty good one on this fact and too lengthy to site, but in general. We must read the scripture in context, and I believe in many times expository of the bible should be done rather than henpecking verses because when you start henpecking (and even I am guilty of this recently) you often lose some of the perfect context in which the words were spoken. But we should be as bereans, daily searching the scriptures to see what is so, reading them line by line, precept by precept.

Isaiah 28:9-10 (NKJV)


9 “Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little.”

2 Peter 1:19-21 (NKJV)

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.


We all should remember that the interpretation of scriptures is not private to us, God has the interpretation, and if we seek it in the scriptures, they will interpret themselves for us in time and study. So if we are seeking scriptures in context and yielding to the guidance of his Holy Spirit, we all in time will come to the Unity of Spirit that one day we will have when Christ returns.

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 09:20 PM
John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth"

This verse was spoken to the Jesus' disciples, not to all Christians, look at the context.

John 16:12-16 ( KJV ) 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.



16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.



From the context it is clear that this statement is made to the apostles, there is no reason to apply this to all Christians.

faithfulfriend
Jan 15th 2009, 09:25 PM
This verse was spoken to the Jesus' disciples, not to all Christians, look at the context.

John 16:12-16 ( KJV ) 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.



16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
From the context it is clear that this statement is made to the apostles, there is no reason to apply this to all Christians.



Are you a disciple of Christ?

alethos
Jan 15th 2009, 10:12 PM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)



When you hold no loyalties or presuppositions towards theological schools of thought, but are being led solely by Scripture with the aid of the Holy Spirit, and take Scripture for what it plainly states without having to add any particular theological schools spin on the words contained in Scripture.

The following quote is taken from the Westmister Confession of faith

"All synods or councils since the apostles' times, whether general or particular, may err, and many have erred; therefore they are not to be made the rule of faith or practice"

Even they admit the possibility of error in what they teach.

And there is no theological school of thought that has it all right.

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 12:43 AM
This verse was spoken to the Jesus' disciples, not to all Christians, look at the context.

John 16:12-16 ( KJV ) 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.



16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
From the context it is clear that this statement is made to the apostles, there is no reason to apply this to all Christians.


I am having a hard time figuring out how you think this does not pertain to us. Can you explain your theory on this further because the way I view the scriptures is not God spoke, but rather that God is speaking through them. Way to many see the bible as just a book, but scripture says it is the living word and thus God is still speaking to us.

thethinker
Jan 16th 2009, 01:07 AM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right?? how do you know your interpretation is right?? how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol


So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?


i personally look at fruit and respect of Scripture. Does the person (or do i) hold a high view of Scripture, as the only authoritative Word of God? Do they interpret literally or do they have some weird new trajectory hermaneutic?(Bell/Mclaren) Also what is the temperment of that person? Are they like Jesus? Or are they mean-spirited, finger pointing tighty religious in personality? Ive learned for the most part that people who yell all the time OR TYPE LIKE THIS are normally off. So that is my view. Do they stand under the Bible in humility or over it looking down? Do they change as society does or do they stay the same throughout? And can you always sense a feeling of love and concern and a connection with Jesus from them? Or do they just like to argue all the time disrespectfully?

Reformedct,
Now that you feel better getting all that stuff off your chest can you consider that the only doctrine that really matters is justification by faith alone. Can you accept that Christ's atoning work was 100% effectual or it was nothing at all?

Btw, I'm with you.

thinker

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 01:46 AM
Are you a disciple of Christ?

Yes, I am a disciple, no I was not one of the original 12

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 01:53 AM
I am having a hard time figuring out how you think this does not pertain to us. Can you explain your theory on this further because the way I view the scriptures is not God spoke, but rather that God is speaking through them. Way to many see the bible as just a book, but scripture says it is the living word and thus God is still speaking to us.

Jesus was making this statement to His apostles, it is right there in the text. He was not addressing the crowds, He was not making a general statement, He said to his apostles, I have much to say to you, but you cannot bear it now, but when He comes He will lead you in all truth and show you things to come. Does the holy Spirit show us things to come? No, but He did show the apostles. If this was a general statement made to all Christians then we would all be in agreement on our doctrine, surely the holy Spirit isn't leading us all in different directions. Let me ask you, have you ever changed your position on some doctrine in the Bible?

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 01:54 AM
Reformedct,
Now that you feel better getting all that stuff off your chest can you consider that the only doctrine that really matters is justification by faith alone. Can you accept that Christ's atoning work was 100% effectual or it was nothing at all?

Btw, I'm with you.

thinker

Where does the Bible teach justification by faith alone?

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 04:31 PM
Jesus was making this statement to His apostles, it is right there in the text. He was not addressing the crowds, He was not making a general statement, He said to his apostles, I have much to say to you, but you cannot bear it now, but when He comes He will lead you in all truth and show you things to come. Does the holy Spirit show us things to come? No, but He did show the apostles.
What is written there is not just to take up space in the book. God has not stopped talking to us. God sent the Holy Spirit to be our teacher and Jesus confirms that not only in the passages you quoted, but also in chapter 14. We were told that Jesus would not leave us or forsake us. He is teaching this here to us (all believer) not just the apostles. Every scripture in the bible is written by the divine direction of God through the Holy Spirit and thus makes every word applicable to each and every one of us.

John 14

16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 14

26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 16

13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.


If this was a general statement made to all Christians then we would all be in agreement on our doctrine, surely the holy Spirit isn't leading us all in different directions. Let me ask you, have you ever changed your position on some doctrine in the Bible?
Where does wisdom come from? It comes from God through revelation of the scriptures taught to us by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2

9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

TrustingFollower
Jan 16th 2009, 04:32 PM
Where does the Bible teach justification by faith alone?
Romans 5

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Jehu10842
Jan 16th 2009, 08:43 PM
I plead guilty to scrolling through marathon posts. I've found that people with the most to say can get it done in fewer words. The original thread question is one of the most important ever asked. Someone may have already covered this.

I would consider Acts 17:11

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 10:20 PM
Romans 5

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

How do you define faith?

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 10:35 PM
What is written there is not just to take up space in the book. God has not stopped talking to us. God sent the Holy Spirit to be our teacher and Jesus confirms that not only in the passages you quoted, but also in chapter 14. We were told that Jesus would not leave us or forsake us. He is teaching this here to us (all believer) not just the apostles. Every scripture in the bible is written by the divine direction of God through the Holy Spirit and thus makes every word applicable to each and every one of us.

John 14

16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 14

26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.


John 16

13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.


Where does wisdom come from? It comes from God through revelation of the scriptures taught to us by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2

9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.


Look at the context, Jesus' statements were directly to he apostles, and Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 is speaking of the apostles.

John 14:12-17 ( KJV ) 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.



15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.




Who did greater works than these? Was it not the apostles? Did they not raise the dead, heal the sick, cast out demons? Do Christians today do great works than Christ did? I don't think so, these statements apply to the apostles not all Christians




Not every word in Scripture applies to every Christian. The things Jesus taught apply to us, commands He gave to His apsotles may not.




Again, if everyone is led in all truth please explain to me why there are about 20,000 sects in the protestant church.

shawn_2828
Feb 10th 2009, 03:20 AM
How do we know what the correct doctrine of Scripture is? lol for example, either you can lose your salvation or not right? (Just an example do not turn this into a OSAS/NOSAS debate!)

but how do we know whose right?? how do you know your interpretation is right?? how can any of us know?? Be led by the Spirit? Thats what everyone says and look at us! lol


So how do we know what is 100% right and whats not? Do we go by majority historical acceptance? is that safe?


i personally look at fruit and respect of Scripture. Does the person (or do i) hold a high view of Scripture, as the only authoritative Word of God? Do they interpret literally or do they have some weird new trajectory hermaneutic?(Bell/Mclaren) Also what is the temperment of that person? Are they like Jesus? Or are they mean-spirited, finger pointing tighty religious in personality? Ive learned for the most part that people who yell all the time OR TYPE LIKE THIS are normally off. So that is my view. Do they stand under the Bible in humility or over it looking down? Do they change as society does or do they stay the same throughout? And can you always sense a feeling of love and concern and a connection with Jesus from them? Or do they just like to argue all the time disrespectfully?


The Holy Spirit knows everything and he knows the truth. So, if you have the Holy Spirit then all you have to do is follow his guidance. He will know if something is false, and if it is he will not except it and will guide you to the truth.

The Holy Spirit is equal with The Father, And Jesus, so who better to follow. God gave us His spirit so we wouldn't have to worry about things like this. But sadly people are not relying on the HOly Spirits guidance. That is why we have so many people that are being lead astray into darkness.

If you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you,you will be in good hands. He knows what He is doing, because The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are equal, for there is only one God.

So, by listening to the Holy Spirit, is just like listening to God himself. He will not tell you to do anything that will contradict His word.