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Veretax
Jan 15th 2009, 04:21 AM
I stumbled upon Joel during my study this evening, and for some reason the passage and those that follow it really got my attention. I've gone back to try and get the context around this statement about a "northern army", and I'll admit I'm not sure whether the prophecy from around verse 12 to the part where he speaks of the Day of the Lord has already happened or will yet happen:

For those who are Curious it begins around this point:

Joel 2:12-24

12 "Now, therefore," says the Lord, "Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning." 13 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He relents from doing harm. 14 Who knows if He will turn and relent, And leave a blessing behind Him-- A grain offering and a drink offering For the Lord your God? 15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, Consecrate a fast, Call a sacred assembly; 16 Gather the people, Sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, Gather the children and nursing babes; Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, And the bride from her dressing room. 17 Let the priests, who minister to the Lord, Weep between the porch and the altar; Let them say, "Spare Your people, O Lord, And do not give Your heritage to reproach, That the nations should rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where is their God?' "

18 Then the Lord will be zealous for His land, And pity His people. 19 The Lord will answer and say to His people, "Behold, I will send you grain and new wine and oil, And you will be satisfied by them; I will no longer make you a reproach among the nations. 20 "But I will remove far from you the northern army, And will drive him away into a barren and desolate land, With his face toward the eastern sea And his back toward the western sea; His stench will come up, And his foul odor will rise, Because he has done monstrous things." 21 Fear not, O land; Be glad and rejoice, For the Lord has done marvelous things! 22 Do not be afraid, you beasts of the field; For the open pastures are springing up, And the tree bears its fruit; The fig tree and the vine yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, you children of Zion, And rejoice in the Lord your God; For He has given you the former rain faithfully, F6 And He will cause the rain to come down for you-- The former rain, And the latter rain in the first month. 24 The threshing floors shall be full of wheat, And the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil.

Later on he also calls judgement on phillistia, which if memory serves is near present day Gaza, so I got to thinking if this could be referencing an event that has already occured, or will occur, probably between Israel and Lebanon/Hezballoah in the north. I'm not entirely sure though because I've not looked in depth at this passage before so I'm very interested in what some of you believe God was trying to say. Is this a prophecy of the end or near end times? Or is it already fullfilled?

wombat
Jan 15th 2009, 02:42 PM
Hi, Veretax! I actually believe that much of what is written in the books of the Bible prophets have two (or more) layers of fulfillments, part historic and part future. It may very well be that this particular segment of Scripture that you are asking about could be fulfilled in future, but also at least partly fulfilled in the past. As I've studied the Old Testament, I am increasingly aware that the prophets' words were not just for people that lived long before me, but they are also speaking directly to me and my generation. So many Christians I've known have said that they generally don't read the Old Testament prophetic books because they're either "too boring", "too depressing", or "too confusing". But I say keep reading those prophets' words! They are as alive today as yesterday, because God's entire Word is for every generation, and I believe we are about to see the fulfillment layers play out on the earth's stage right before our eyes.

Veretax
Jan 15th 2009, 03:15 PM
Hi, Veretax! I actually believe that much of what is written in the books of the Bible prophets have two (or more) layers of fulfillments, part historic and part future. It may very well be that this particular segment of Scripture that you are asking about could be fulfilled in future, but also at least partly fulfilled in the past. As I've studied the Old Testament, I am increasingly aware that the prophets' words were not just for people that lived long before me, but they are also speaking directly to me and my generation. So many Christians I've known have said that they generally don't read the Old Testament prophetic books because they're either "too boring", "too depressing", or "too confusing". But I say keep reading those prophets' words! They are as alive today as yesterday, because God's entire Word is for every generation, and I believe we are about to see the fulfillment layers play out on the earth's stage right before our eyes.

I am inclined to believe this as well, because while we saw what happened at pentecost and it does match in part the predictions in Joel 2, I am not inclined to believe that then was the "Day of the Lord". Which leads me to believe that there may be a new pouring out of God's spirit either in the end times, possibly during the millenial reign, but I've not studied this out carefully enough to pin that up just yet.

John146
Jan 15th 2009, 07:08 PM
I am inclined to believe this as well, because while we saw what happened at pentecost and it does match in part the predictions in Joel 2, I am not inclined to believe that then was the "Day of the Lord". Which leads me to believe that there may be a new pouring out of God's spirit either in the end times, possibly during the millenial reign, but I've not studied this out carefully enough to pin that up just yet.Since we know that Joel 2:28-32 is quoted in Acts 2:16-21 this establishes that at the very least Joel 2 is related in part to what happened at Pentecost. Most likely, it refers to the outpouring of the Spirit that has occurred throughout the NT time period and not just at Pentecost, even though that was a special event. People are still being saved by calling on the name of the Lord (Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21) and still being indwelt by the Spirit. This will continue right up until the day of the Lord.

vinsight4u8
Jan 16th 2009, 02:03 PM
Hi

I see it as for the endtimes.

v13
"...repenteth him of the evil." (Joel 2)

---------------------------------
Deuteronomy 32:36
"For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants..."
v43
"...for he will avenge the blood of his servants...will be merciful unto his land [and] to his people."


--------------------
Rev. 19:1
"...Salvation..."
v2
"...hath avenged the blood of his servants..."

(this is the taking down time of mystery, Babylon)

Rev. 18 - shows regular Babylon
"...for God hath avenged you on her."
v20

v4
"...Come out of her, my people,...that ye receive not of her plagues..."

-----------------------
Something to notice in Joel 2 is that a key is given to us as to what this means.

"...I will send you corn and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen."

"send you corn and wine, and oil"

See how when the Lord speaks as to the food supply - He is restoring a nation?

I will send you corn -

as in hurt not the oil and the wine
- destroy it not
give it not to the strangers in your land
time to send the army of strangers in their land out

So now consider the words of the 3rd seal of Rev. 6.

It is showing us that the nation where the beast (4th seal rider) is from will first undergo a time of famine - war with an enemy.

Iraq - and the USA

but - then will come - "hurt not the oil and the wine"

The third seal is not a time of world famine, but God speaking as to the fall and rise to power and plenty again in Iraq.


--------------
Joel 2 is about how the land of Babylon will again come and destroy the land of Israel - but after a bit - God will be jealous for His land and restore the food supply and raise the nation back up.

wombat
Jan 16th 2009, 02:23 PM
I am inclined to believe this as well, because while we saw what happened at pentecost and it does match in part the predictions in Joel 2, I am not inclined to believe that then was the "Day of the Lord". Which leads me to believe that there may be a new pouring out of God's spirit either in the end times, possibly during the millenial reign, but I've not studied this out carefully enough to pin that up just yet.
From what I've read about this,there will be a great number of people becoming believers in Jesus during the 7-year tribulation period. There will also be the moment when Israel's remnant who survive the antiChrist's invasion of Jerusalem (and all the other horrors of the last 3.5 years) come to realize that Jesus is indeed their Messiah and Savior.

vinsight4u8
Jan 16th 2009, 02:25 PM
Isaiah 65 is another place to look.

v1
"..unto a nation..."
v8
"...as the new wine is found, and [one] saith, Destroy it not...that I may not destroy them all."


v13
"...Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry..."
v14
"Behold, my servants shall sing for joy, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart..."

vinsight4u8
Jan 16th 2009, 02:32 PM
When will Jesus repent of the evil that was to come in the end days?

When the seven thunders part comes in Revelation - just before the last trumpet sounds.

quiet dove
Jan 16th 2009, 10:16 PM
When will Jesus repent of the evil that was to come in the end days?

When the seven thunders part comes in Revelation - just before the last trumpet sounds.

What does "Jesus repent of the evil" mean? :confused

vinsight4u8
Jan 16th 2009, 11:19 PM
What does "Jesus repent of the evil" mean? :confused

It means that He will call back some of the punishment part that was to come.

Isaiah 31:2 is an example.

"...and will bring evil, and will not call back his words..."


also Exodus 32:12
"...Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people."

v14
"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."


-----------
Judges 2:18
"And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them, and vexed them."

quiet dove
Jan 18th 2009, 01:23 AM
It means that He will call back some of the punishment part that was to come.

Isaiah 31:2 is an example.

"...and will bring evil, and will not call back his words..."


also Exodus 32:12
"...Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people."

v14
"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."


-----------
Judges 2:18
"And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them, and vexed them."

Ok, I'm sorry. I was blank when I read what you had.

Gods Child
Jan 18th 2009, 04:25 AM
I stumbled upon Joel during my study this evening, and for some reason the passage and those that follow it really got my attention. I've gone back to try and get the context around this statement about a "northern army", and I'll admit I'm not sure whether the prophecy from around verse 12 to the part where he speaks of the Day of the Lord has already happened or will yet happen:



I believe that The Lord's Day = Day of the Lord by scripture is at the end. The Day of the Lord has not happened yet.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

1 Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Cor 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.



I believe northern army is speaking of something yet future.

Ezekiel 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. 17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? 18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

Dan 11:6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.
7 But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:
8 And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the north.
11 And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, even with the king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand.
13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.
15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand.
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

shepherdsword
Jan 18th 2009, 04:41 AM
Hi, Veretax! I actually believe that much of what is written in the books of the Bible prophets have two (or more) layers of fulfillments, part historic and part future. It may very well be that this particular segment of Scripture that you are asking about could be fulfilled in future, but also at least partly fulfilled in the past. As I've studied the Old Testament, I am increasingly aware that the prophets' words were not just for people that lived long before me, but they are also speaking directly to me and my generation. So many Christians I've known have said that they generally don't read the Old Testament prophetic books because they're either "too boring", "too depressing", or "too confusing". But I say keep reading those prophets' words! They are as alive today as yesterday, because God's entire Word is for every generation, and I believe we are about to see the fulfillment layers play out on the earth's stage right before our eyes.

It looks like we are all pretty much in agreement here. I think this is a good place to apply the "prophetic law of double reference"
We know Joel is written to the end times because Peter applied it as a reference to the early rain in the book of Acts when the Spirit was poured out. The latter rain part of that particular passage has yet to be fulfilled.
The passage you referenced lines up pretty much with the prophecy in Ez 38 against Magog who comes out of the north.
It defiantly has an end time fulfillment

*sorry God's Child, I responded with out even reading your post so I repeated you*

Psalms Fan
Jan 18th 2009, 11:57 PM
There were multiple Days of the Lord in the OT. Any time God acted mightily was a "Day of the Lord". When Christ came the first time and visited His people, it was a "Day of the Lord". When Christ returns in judgement it will be a "day of the Lord".

Almost every enemy of Israel attacked from the north. Geographically it was an excellent place from which to attack. Some people like the Philistines, for example, wouldn't be "from the north" since they were right in the midst of them. For example, it was the Babylonians, a people from the "east", who besieged the kingdom of Judah, yet in Jeremiah 1 they are said to be from "the north" when they were clearly from the east. "The North" is the direction of attack of most hostile nations in relation to Israel, so attacking enemies were from "the north" or were "the people of the north", regardless of where they were physically located.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 12:13 AM
It may be a silly question, but:

Was North, South, East and West, the same in those days, as we know them to be today?

When the Ark landed at Ararat, it say they travelled from the East to Shinar. I seem to think that Ararat is North of Shinar.