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RZ06
Jan 15th 2009, 06:02 AM
I know tithing is a debatable topic as I read the ones on here, but this is something my husband and I are dealing with.

We have a lot of debt and are about to start paying down on it, but the issue of tithing is weighing on us.

We're following the Dave Ramsey plan and even he states about tithing the 10% even when in debt.

I've talked to our pastor about it, fellow Christians, and have done a lot of reading on the 'net. At the same time, I've also read from fellow Christians about not tithing 10% and they use scripture too!

We're unsure of what to do...I know we are to pray about it...but it really seems like we should tithe our 10%. We will be able to pay our bills still, but not have anywhere near left over what we would of had. We will have a little extra, but like 1/3 of what we would of had.

Also, if we do tithe, what about any over time he gets? Can we keep that for ourselves as we are already being faithful and obedient to God and sacrificing 10% and my husband is working hard to bring in any extra pay to put down on our bills. Or should we do 10% from that also?

Psalm
Jan 15th 2009, 06:28 AM
First of all, go and see what the BIBLE say about it. Ask God, but dont expect a different answer from what His Word tells you.

My opinion:
I am convinced that it's 10% of ALL the income you get - before tax (firstfruits). Yes I know it's not that easy.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
This is the only scripture I know of that God tells us to prove Him herewith.

If it doesnt come from a cheerful heart but from a grudingly or of necessity, there is something wrong with the relationship between you and God. God loves a cheerful giver.

Lefty
Jan 15th 2009, 06:45 AM
God loves a cheerful giver.

That's the one aspect of this that I'm absolutely sure of.:thumbsup:

tt1106
Jan 15th 2009, 06:49 AM
What did your pastor say?

My personal feeling is somewhere right around where Psalm is

2 Corinthians 9:6-8 says, 6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

You should give what's on our heart to give. The widow threw in all she had.
She gave everything to the Lord. If you cannot, give what you can.

Veretax
Jan 15th 2009, 12:25 PM
I know tithing is a debatable topic as I read the ones on here, but this is something my husband and I are dealing with.

We have a lot of debt and are about to start paying down on it, but the issue of tithing is weighing on us.

We're following the Dave Ramsey plan and even he states about tithing the 10% even when in debt.

I've talked to our pastor about it, fellow Christians, and have done a lot of reading on the 'net. At the same time, I've also read from fellow Christians about not tithing 10% and they use scripture too!

We're unsure of what to do...I know we are to pray about it...but it really seems like we should tithe our 10%. We will be able to pay our bills still, but not have anywhere near left over what we would of had. We will have a little extra, but like 1/3 of what we would of had.

Also, if we do tithe, what about any over time he gets? Can we keep that for ourselves as we are already being faithful and obedient to God and sacrificing 10% and my husband is working hard to bring in any extra pay to put down on our bills. Or should we do 10% from that also?

Every person's situation is unique, and I am of the opinion that the Tithe is not on the Standard pay you had, but on wherever there was an increase. The bible talks about tithing in terms of the first fruits of the increase, thus, I believe the tithe, technically only applies to that money over and above what you may have had previous (For example when you receive a raise.) The Pastor I used to have at my last home, believed this as well.

However, let me say, that if it is in your ability to give more now, by all means do so, and do so cheerfully, for God loves a cheerful giver, and he will certainly bless you accordingly.

A lot of folks subscribe their "lawful" tithe as some service to God and expect blessing from it (in terms of more money), but I am of the opinion that God does not only bless us in financial areas. You can also tithe of you time, or your goods. My wife and I are also under some bad debt that we've worked hard for almost ten years now to get out from under, and we
are not there yet.

There is another thing that I've been considering of late, that this increase may actually be over and above the general provisions to which God provides. For example I believe God promises to provide us with food, clothing, shelter, running water, and other things necessary to maintain that home (electricity or gas heating for example) anything above that which is extra (cable, internet, telephone) would be extra as well.

However, given our nature of indebtedness and our desire to dig out of it as quickly as possible, we do not presently tithe, though we wish we had enough room in the budget to do so. We instead give as we are able and do so Cheerfully, longing for the day when enough of this debt burden is relieved to where it does not hinder us from tithing.

I would definitely pray about it though, God expects different things from different people, and I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination :/

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 02:41 PM
From a personal expierence I can tell you this. We have been in debt (and still are) and we did not tithe because we didn't think we would have the money to make it. Guess what? When we didn't tithe things just got worse. We would overdraw our account, have to get my parents to buy us groceries, it would be tough to get gas to get to work.

Then, we started tithing our 10% and now, even in debt, we always have extra money. God has met each and every one of our needs, and He has never let us down. Even though you may think it is going to be tough if you tithe while in debt, then just remember that God will protect and watch over his children. He will meet all of your needs. You will have to find ways to cut back, like not eating out, not buying that cd you want, and so on and so forth.

So from personal expierence. Tithe. You won't regret it. God will provide, especially when you are obeying his commands.

billy-brown 2
Jan 16th 2009, 05:35 AM
This is my first experience at this forum, and the modern-day "tithing" issue in the OP caught my attention; not only the "benefits" that people are having, but the challenges that people are having in their "obediance" to this teaching.

In John, 8:31-32, it is recorded that Jesus is speaking to his disciples that believed on Him and He said that " . . . If you continue in my Word, then are you my disciples indeed, And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 8:31-32 is a capstone passage for any Christian to consider as he or she seeks to live the life of repentance and obedience to God.

In fact, I have learned a law from John 8:31-32: if any teaching from the Word does not bring freedom to the lives of all, then it CANNOT BE TRUTH.

Might there be an opportunity to rethink the modern-day "tithing" teaching in our day? The horror stories that I (and others) have seen and heard with people who seek to obey the modern day "tithing" teaching is not good--it really takes on the stature of a modern-day scandal. Of course, there are saints who mention the"good" things that have come to them "because they tithed"--and they (unknowingly, to be sure) make an honest, and open, discussion of this issue problematic.

Nevertheless, I hope we will all really do some rethinking on the "tithing" teaching in the modern church--and think about whether it is biblical or not.

We really need to understand that if we are taught in the Word, we should contribute financially to the support of those doing the teaching (see Gal. 6:6ff). The contribution should be generous, but entirely voluntary (no pressure); it's not a big deal, really.

The issue in this is clear, though: THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL TITHING.

After being a born-again Christian for more than 30 years, I have come to the conclusion that NOBODY can tithe today biblically. One can, of course, give money to a 501c3 ministry effort in a city--and, in the USA, get a "tax break" for doing so. Nevertheless, biblical tithing is an altogether different thing than "giving money" to a ministry. (This is where major misunderstandings occur among the saints.)

As we might remember, the first example of tithing in the Bible was between Abram and Melchesidek (the High Priest of that day), and that never happened again--where Abram would provide the tithe from the "spoils of war" that he fought in (NOT his personal wealth--see Gen. 12-14). There is only one more voluntary example of tithing in the book of Genesis (Jacob's--and this was conditional).

Since that time, tithing was incorporated into the Law of Moses, and at least four other things are REQUIRED to be in place TOGETHER for the tithing command:

1) A Physical, Earthly Temple (or tabernacle) having YHWY's name (the "storehouse" to store the tithe was in this facility)
2) Earthly Crops and Livestock (money was NOT involved in tithing)
3) Earthly Levites and an Earthly High Priest (the Levites provided a tithe of the tithe to the High Priest).
4) Specific "Sabbath" Covenant Configurations and Conventions

Some commentary on these four items are given below:

1) Beside the tabernacle of Moses, there have been three (3) earthly brick-and-mortar temples on the earth respectively: Solomon's, Zerubabbel's, and Herod's. All three earthly temples have been destroyed: Solomon's was destroyed when Judah went into Babylonian captivity; Zerubabbel's and Herod's (Herod expanded Zerubabbel's temple during the time of the Christ) were destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD per the prophesy of the Lord Jesus Christ (Matt. 24, Mark 13, Lk. 21). HENCE, THERE IS NO PHYSICAL EARTHLY TEMPLE, TABERNACLE, OR STOREHOUSE TODAY. (The implication is this: the local church of today is not the storehouse of Mal. Ch. 3--despite shouts to the contrary by preachers.)

2) Is there a mention of tithing in the Law that indicates activity other than someone giving or eating livestock or plants? Jesus mentions in Matt. 23:23 that the Pharisees tithed "mint, anise, and cumin" in a hypocritical manner--these come from PLANTS. Several translations of Proverbs 3:9 indicate that if honor is given to the Lord with substance and first-fruits of CROPS (it is incorrectly translated "increase" in the KJV), there would be barns filled with plenty and so on. It is clear that money is not involved in this, because money can not be eaten. Actually, the first-fruits and the tithe of the Bible was not the same thing anyway; more about this under 4) below. Additionally, all the Hebrew people would celebrate the Lord by EATING the so-called "Festival tithe"--but I will write more about the "Festival tithe" under item 4) below as well.

3) There is NO Earthly High Priest today--only a Heavenly one (the Lord Jesus Christ). Every believer in Christ is a PRIEST today as well as the "TEMPLE" (see 1 Pet. 2-9 and 1 Cor. 3 and 6); there is no Levitical priesthood today. Every believer is born into the BODY OF CHRIST, and the BODY OF CHRIST is the CHURCH (the "TEMPLE" of GOD indeed)--you can't "join" this, you must be "born again" into it per the New Covenant mandate of Jeremiah the Prophet (Jer. 31).

4) No commentary on tithing should ignore the 7-year “Sabbath” cycles of the Hebrew people that YWHW set up for them in the Torah (the Law of Moses). This is very important, because the Law of Moses set this system in place--and to disobey carried severe consequences. Indeed, tithing was configured so dynamically to this Hebrew “life rhythm”cycle of “sevens” that it is really impossible to separate them (in my mind, at least). As I understand it, the “life rhythm” of the Hebrew people was expressed in “sevens” in the Tanakh (the Old Testament). The format is as follows:

a) the 7-day week (7 days)— 6 days of work, a Sabbath rest on day 7.

b) a week of 7 years (7 years)—6 years of farming, a Sabbath rest on year 7 for the land.

c) 7 weeks of 7 years (49 years)—7 sets of 6 years of farming followed by a Sabbath rest year PLUS an additional Sabbath year (the 50th year; this is called the “Jubilee”).

At least three different “tithes” were featured in the Torah--and they were configured dynamically with this “life rhythm” cycle of “sevens” as follows:

A) The Levitical tithe (Masser Rishon)—

i. eaten (!) by the Levites (servants to the Priests); it was their reward for their service in the temple/tabernacle; it was received from the non-Levitical Hebrews; a “tenth of this tithe” was given by the Levites to the Priests for their food also.

ii. The Priests did not tithe, nor did any non-Levite give tithes to the Priests directly (they gave first-fruits to the Priests directly only).

iii. This Levitical tithe was to be given in years 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 of the Hebrew 7-year cycle; no tithing was commanded for the 7th year of the cycle (Sabbath year).

iv. The Levites brought the “tenth of this tithe” to the Priests in the temple/tabernacle; the Levites did not live in the city where the name of YWHW was. The Priests would have opportunity to place this “tenth of the tithe” in the storeroom of the temple/tabernacle.

v. Since the Levites had no inherited land, YWHW gave them 48 “Levitical cities” to live in. These cities were scattered throughout the lands of the 11 Hebrew tribes. Most of the tithe that they received from the non-Levitical Hebrews remained in the fields around these cities. In fact, specific “courses” of Levite families had a week of rotation work time in the temple (there was 24 courses, in fact). A Levite family “course” would bring a portion of their own tithe with them—plus the “tenth of the tithe” for the Priest when they would go for their “week of work” in the temple/tabernacle. The Levites that worked in the temple as servants to the Priests would store their portion in the storeroom of the temple/tabernacle also.

B) Festival tithe (Masser Sheni)—

i. eaten (!) by the non-Levitical Hebrew people (along with Levites from their cities also) as a celebration of the goodness of YWHW at the yearly festivals around the temple/tabernacles in Jerusalem. This is an additional “tenth” of corn, wine, olive oil, animals, etc. of what remained AFTER the Levitical tithe was given. The food (!) could be exchanged for money if need be, and, after traveling to Jerusalem, the non-Levitical Hebrew people could buy things to eat in celebration at the feasts; some of this would be given to Levites who would accompany the trip to the feasts in Jerusalem.

ii. This was to be done in year 1, 2, 4, and 5 of the 7-year cycle; no tithing was commanded for the 7th year (Sabbath year).

C) “Poor” tithe (Masser Ani)—

i. eaten (!) AT HOME (”within thy gates”) by the non-Levitical people along with the Levite, stranger, orphan, and widow.

ii. This was to be done in the third year (years 3 and 6) of the 7-year cycle; all would be at the homes of the non-Levitical Hebrew people during these years (year 3 and 6).

So, from the facts of 1), 2), 3), and 4) above, can any Christian can be involved in any of the modern-day church "tithing" configuration today--and remain biblical?

Is not the goal of the Christian to maintain biblical fidelity to the Lord and the truth from the Scriptures?

Comments are welcome . . .

Cheers and love,

billy-brown 2

:pp

Bob Carabbio
Jan 16th 2009, 06:08 AM
"We're unsure of what to do...I know we are to pray about it...but it really seems like we should tithe our 10%"

And so you HAVE your answer. If you have a conviction that you should tithe, then tithe.

This or that "theology" to the contrary notwithstanding, if you go with what your "Peace" leads you toward, you'll be O.K.

jbbaab44
Jan 16th 2009, 07:53 PM
Can a man/woman serve two masters? One debt and one tithing?

doubledcattle
Jan 16th 2009, 07:57 PM
Debt is not a master nor is tithing. Jesus is the master and he is the way the truth and the life. We are serving Jesus when we tithe. So the answer to your question is no, we can only serve one master and if we let someone esle or something take that place then we will be disciplined.

Julian
Jan 16th 2009, 07:59 PM
I know tithing is a debatable topic as I read the ones on here, but this is something my husband and I are dealing with.

We have a lot of debt and are about to start paying down on it, but the issue of tithing is weighing on us.

We're following the Dave Ramsey plan and even he states about tithing the 10% even when in debt.

I've talked to our pastor about it, fellow Christians, and have done a lot of reading on the 'net. At the same time, I've also read from fellow Christians about not tithing 10% and they use scripture too!

We're unsure of what to do...I know we are to pray about it...but it really seems like we should tithe our 10%. We will be able to pay our bills still, but not have anywhere near left over what we would of had. We will have a little extra, but like 1/3 of what we would of had.

Also, if we do tithe, what about any over time he gets? Can we keep that for ourselves as we are already being faithful and obedient to God and sacrificing 10% and my husband is working hard to bring in any extra pay to put down on our bills. Or should we do 10% from that also?
Scriptures speak about giving from your heart joyfully of your increase. So overtime is part of that. But you ought to be on the same page and EXPECT GOD TO MAKE GOOD ON HIS PROMISE.

Read 2 Cor 9:6-8 (and the whole chapter), then get likeminded with your spouse and pray to God, ask him to bless that which you give out of the joyfulness of your heart. If you really trust him to provide for you, you can give cheerfully even in hard times - for that's when HE works even harder to bless you. Keep your eyes on God's riches in glory in Christ that he has for you. (And don't let anyone talk you out of it)

RZ06
Jan 16th 2009, 09:30 PM
Debt is not a master nor is tithing. Jesus is the master and he is the way the truth and the life. We are serving Jesus when we tithe. So the answer to your question is no, we can only serve one master and if we let someone esle or something take that place then we will be disciplined.

Yes, but we're to pay our debts and keep our "promises". Since, before truly starting to come to the Lord, we got ourselves in financial debt by over committing and wouldn't the Lord want us to pay those people in a timely fashion?

(I'm asking as if I'm thinking out loud...That is a way of thinking my husband & I both have, so that's what adds to our being unsure of the tithing full 10% right now)

Billy-brown, you had some good points too.

Julian
Jan 16th 2009, 09:37 PM
Yes, but we're to pay our debts and keep our "promises". Since, before truly starting to come to the Lord, we got ourselves in financial debt by over committing and wouldn't the Lord want us to pay those people in a timely fashion?

(I'm asking as if I'm thinking out loud...That is a way of thinking my husband & I both have, so that's what adds to our being unsure of the tithing full 10% right now)

Billy-brown, you had some good points too.
What you sow you will reap - the tithing isn't mentioned in the NT - but the priniciple applies. Whatever you choose, do it cheerfully of your increase and not with a grudge and see God go to work.

billy-brown 2
Jan 17th 2009, 03:10 AM
Can we do some more “rethinking” in the area of “tithing”?

Why do we struggle with this “tithing” thing so much as a church?

Almost all of the posts above (particularly #8- #13) indicate a struggle with this on some level—and this sends a “red flag” up to me. (The very fact that we have to discuss this in a forum such as this is revealing also.)

Anyway, all of the posts in this thread are really interesting—and reveal the need for answers to the following questions:



Is there a correlation between “tithing” and “sowing and reaping” in the scriptures?




Are the passages in II Cor. 8-9 dealing with tithing in any way? What is the argument of the Apostle Paul in these chapters?




Does the Lord “curse” the saints if they do not “tithe”? What is the “curse of the Law”?




What are “the Riches in Glory” that is mentioned by Paul in Phil. 4:19?




Are the scriptures the only “standard” for Christian conduct? Or shall we refer only to the Tenets of Faith of a particular ministry as the only “standard” for Christian Conduct?




Is there anything wrong with giving 10% of your finances to a ministry effort?


I hope we can have BIBLICAL answers to these questions, because only the biblical answers will bring the FREEDOM the Lord Jesus Christ is offering to us (John 8:31-32).

Of course, any incorrect answer to these questions (i. e., unbiblical answers) will indicate the amount of BONDAGE that we all may be in--and the will of God for all of us is FREEDOM.



Grace to all,



billy-brown 2

:pp

Revinius
Jan 17th 2009, 03:43 AM
be generous and give your best, your first fruits to the Lord. Tithing is an OT rule that can be healthy in some cases but generally isnt. You should just be 'generous' with the cash God owns (and gives to you).

Athanasius
Jan 17th 2009, 03:55 AM
I'm in debt, I tithe... Ends seem to always meet.

superwoman8977
Jan 17th 2009, 04:17 PM
This is one thing I am sure of when I tithe 10% regardless of whether I am in debt or not (which I will always be unfortunately) God always provides. My husband left me a year ago and I went down to one income and sporadic child support and I didnt give up, I kept on tithing and now God has shown me over and over in the past year that He has me in the palm of His hand and He just keeps on providing. Its such an awesome thing to have him provide ..since the divorce I have never run out of money, never not had enough money for gas, childcare and groceries all because I keep my tithe to Him. You dont have to tithe all of the money to just one place either. I place a percentage of my tithe to my church in my hometown of which I am still a member, a percentage to the church I attend now here and then a percentage to a couple of other ministries I support. My pastor back home explained to us that tithing was a very important part of worship with the Lord and He is the blessor, He blesses us and then we are to be blessings to others. So yes despite the financial situation of myself, I still tithe and God is gracious.

Marc B
Jan 17th 2009, 05:02 PM
First of all, go and see what the BIBLE say about it. Ask God, but dont expect a different answer from what His Word tells you.

My opinion:
I am convinced that it's 10% of ALL the income you get - before tax (firstfruits). Yes I know it's not that easy.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
This is the only scripture I know of that God tells us to prove Him herewith.

If it doesnt come from a cheerful heart but from a grudingly or of necessity, there is something wrong with the relationship between you and God. God loves a cheerful giver.


Before taxes can be a problem for many people, especially those living in heavily taxed countries like Canada, France and Sweden just to mention a few. If you tithe your gross income depending on where you live you could end up tithing a third to half your take home pay leaving you with very little to live on depending on your circumstances. 10% of your take home pay makes a lot more sense since your net income IS all YOUR increase, the government always takes it's cut before you ever see it so in reality that money is never yours to begin with.

Julian
Jan 17th 2009, 05:12 PM
Before taxes can be a problem for many people, especially those living in heavily taxed countries like Canada, France and Sweden just to mention a few. If you tithe your gross income depending on where you live you could end up tithing a third to half your take home pay leaving you with very little to live on depending on your circumstances. 10% of your take home pay makes a lot more sense since your net income IS all YOUR increase, the government always takes it's cut before you ever see it so in reality that money is never yours to begin with.Well if your taxes are 95% and you put God 2nd and only give based on your 5%, then he'll get like 1%. Perhaps putting God first would be better, and trusting him to provide even in a difficult circumstance. God's greatness is shown in much more contrast in the challenges rather than the easy to do things anyway.

I'm confident we should put God first and not our taxes first.

Marc B
Jan 17th 2009, 05:22 PM
Umm OK, according to your example at a 95% tax rate all you will have left to give is the remaining 5% in tithes so where will you get the missing 5% to say nothing about paying your rent, mortgage, bills groceries, transportation costs to get to and from work, etc. :hmm:

Like it or not the government has already taken it's share first so according to your analogy God is already in second place since the firstfruits have already gone to Uncle Sam before you even got your hands on it. So what's a person to do about that?

Revinius
Jan 17th 2009, 05:36 PM
Umm OK, according to your example at a 95% tax rate all you will have left to give is the remaining 5% in tithes so where will you get the missing 5% to say nothing about paying your rent, mortgage, bills groceries, transportation costs to get to and from work, etc. :hmm:

Like it or not the government has already taken it's share first so according to your analogy God is already in second place since the firstfruits have already gone to Uncle Sam before you even got your hands on it. So what's a person to do about that?

Give a percentage of your gross as first fruits. It doesnt matter who takes first cut, but it does matter from which viewpoint you are taking God's cut. If it's from net you are assuming the govt tax is more important. If from Gross you are saying: 'from all that i made, here is what i set aside for you Lord'.

Julian
Jan 17th 2009, 07:16 PM
Umm OK, according to your example at a 95% tax rate all you will have left to give is the remaining 5% in tithes so where will you get the missing 5% to say nothing about paying your rent, mortgage, bills groceries, transportation costs to get to and from work, etc. :hmm:

Like it or not the government has already taken it's share first so according to your analogy God is already in second place since the firstfruits have already gone to Uncle Sam before you even got your hands on it. So what's a person to do about that?
I'm not trying to debate - but if you are willing to look at it like giving to God first, because we put him first - then you can give of your increase. There are many places taxes go to, and if they add up too much then God is last and gets the leftovers.

If you are self-employed you get paid before taxes, so that's a good example to see why we should put God first instead of 2nd or last in the line.

Psalm
Jan 17th 2009, 08:23 PM
I agree with Julian,

firstfruits means firstfruits.

Like I quoted in my first post:

Mal 3:10 "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

If God said this, I believe it, I'm convinced!

Julian
Jan 17th 2009, 08:59 PM
Can we do some more “rethinking” in the area of “tithing”?
...
Anyway, all of the posts in this thread are really interesting—and reveal the need for answers to the following questions:


Is there a correlation between “tithing” and “sowing and reaping” in the scriptures?
They both speak of giving to God for the things of God.



Are the passages in II Cor. 8-9 dealing with tithing in any way?

They don't say tithing as the Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for all who believe. Simply put: what you sow you shall reap.

Does the Lord “curse” the saints if they do not “tithe”? What is the “curse of the Law”?


See above.

Thankfully we are not under the law, but unders Christ:
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law


What are “the Riches in Glory” that is mentioned by Paul in Phil. 4:19?


I don't fully know - but I think it speaks about the riches he has in heaven stored up for us. God has the means and methods to take care of us - and even this scripture, in context, speaks of giving and receiving.

Are the scriptures the only “standard” for Christian conduct? Or shall we refer only to the Tenets of Faith of a particular ministry as the only “standard” for Christian Conduct?


They are my standard. I believe we ought to obey God rather than men.

Is there anything wrong with giving 10% of your finances to a ministry effort?
If you give with a cheerful heart with for the things God is concerned about, I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

If you give with a grudging and unthankful heart toward a ministry that uses your finances to persecute Chrstiains - then there would be much wrong with that.

amazzin
Jan 17th 2009, 09:06 PM
I know tithing is a debatable topic as I read the ones on here, but this is something my husband and I are dealing with.

We have a lot of debt and are about to start paying down on it, but the issue of tithing is weighing on us.

We're following the Dave Ramsey plan and even he states about tithing the 10% even when in debt.

I've talked to our pastor about it, fellow Christians, and have done a lot of reading on the 'net. At the same time, I've also read from fellow Christians about not tithing 10% and they use scripture too!

We're unsure of what to do...I know we are to pray about it...but it really seems like we should tithe our 10%. We will be able to pay our bills still, but not have anywhere near left over what we would of had. We will have a little extra, but like 1/3 of what we would of had.

Also, if we do tithe, what about any over time he gets? Can we keep that for ourselves as we are already being faithful and obedient to God and sacrificing 10% and my husband is working hard to bring in any extra pay to put down on our bills. Or should we do 10% from that also?

Maybe this will help you

1 Now I want you to know, dear brothers and sisters,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=8&version=51#fen-NLT-28893a)] what God in his kindness has done through the churches in Macedonia. 2 They are being tested by many troubles, and they are very poor. But they are also filled with abundant joy, which has overflowed in rich generosity.
3 For I can testify that they gave not only what they could afford, but far more. And they did it of their own free will. 4 They begged us again and again for the privilege of sharing in the gift for the believers[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=8&version=51#fen-NLT-28896b)] in Jerusalem. 5 They even did more than we had hoped, for their first action was to give themselves to the Lord and to us, just as God wanted them to do.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 17th 2009, 09:08 PM
Moved this to Bible Chat, which is more of a debate forum that MiC.

RZ06
Jan 17th 2009, 10:43 PM
I don't really understand the whole idea of giving before taxes, if then, you won't have enough to pay your rent/mortagage, etc. I'm just not too sure God would want that, when you've made a commitment.

Romans 13:7-8 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?passage=Romans+13%3A7-8) Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Psalm 37:21: 21 The wicked borrow and do not repay, but the righteous give generously;

Ecclesiastes 5:4 When you make a vow to God, do not be late in paying it; for He takes no delight in fools. Pay what you vow!

Those verses also make me rethink on tithing 10% if you can't pay all of your debts...

BroRog
Jan 17th 2009, 11:15 PM
I know tithing is a debatable topic as I read the ones on here, but this is something my husband and I are dealing with.

We have a lot of debt and are about to start paying down on it, but the issue of tithing is weighing on us.

We're following the Dave Ramsey plan and even he states about tithing the 10% even when in debt.

I've talked to our pastor about it, fellow Christians, and have done a lot of reading on the 'net. At the same time, I've also read from fellow Christians about not tithing 10% and they use scripture too!

We're unsure of what to do...I know we are to pray about it...but it really seems like we should tithe our 10%. We will be able to pay our bills still, but not have anywhere near left over what we would of had. We will have a little extra, but like 1/3 of what we would of had.

Also, if we do tithe, what about any over time he gets? Can we keep that for ourselves as we are already being faithful and obedient to God and sacrificing 10% and my husband is working hard to bring in any extra pay to put down on our bills. Or should we do 10% from that also?

Tithing is a Jewish deal. You are free in Christ and don't need to give another dime to anyone. Period. I don't know who this Dave Ramsey is but you need to throw his book away. Just get rid of it. Forget about Tithing and start thinking about giving.

Tithing was an obligation under the Mosaic Law and just like all the other goofy things that God made the Jews do, like dressing funny, and eating funny, we are not under any obligation to do those things. Think about it. Are you under Law? No. Do you feel compelled to sacrifice animals for your sins? You shouldn't. Do you feel obligated to eat the passover?, avoid mixing cotton with wool?, stay home during your menstrual cycle, walk down the road shouting "unclean, unclean"? show your clean skin to a priest after a skin rash has healed?

Christians are to be givers. And giving is spontaneous as appropriate to the needs of the Christian community. For instance, you might save up what you can and when someone in your church loses a job, buy them some groceries. If a member of your church has a pipe break and can't find the cash to get it fixed right away, give them some money. In other words, save your money and then look for opportunities to give directly to an individual or a family.

Take a lesson from the parable of the good Samaritan. The moral of that story is simple. Help those you trip over. That is, give money directly to those whom God brings to you, especially if it's someone in your church who needs help.

The point is, Tithing is deceitful because it give you a sense of generosity and giving without actually requiring you to come face-to-face with those you help. It's sterile. God's love is not institutional love; it's person-to-person love. God gives money to some and takes money from others in order to force us to face each other and love each other.

When I was down and out and without food to feed my family, my good friends got together and bought my family food. And I was left with the feelings of failure and inadequacy, which God wanted me to experience and come to terms with it. Proving for my family was a matter of pride, and accepting food from others was a teaching moment of humility. If I had accepted a box of food from an institution, I would never have had to face my pride. I would never have had to learn my lesson.

Forget the Tithe. It's an evil institution perpetrated by those who are too insecure to trust God. If you appreciate your pastor, give to him directly. Hand him a check now and again. Keep it real and keep it personal. Use the opportunity to speak to him or her directly, either personally or by letter, to let them know that you appreciate his efforts to feed you spiritually.

Help those you trip over.

crystalbrite
Jan 17th 2009, 11:23 PM
I know tithing is a debatable topic as I read the ones on here, but this is something my husband and I are dealing with.

We have a lot of debt and are about to start paying down on it, but the issue of tithing is weighing on us.

We're following the Dave Ramsey plan and even he states about tithing the 10% even when in debt.

I've talked to our pastor about it, fellow Christians, and have done a lot of reading on the 'net. At the same time, I've also read from fellow Christians about not tithing 10% and they use scripture too!

We're unsure of what to do...I know we are to pray about it...but it really seems like we should tithe our 10%. We will be able to pay our bills still, but not have anywhere near left over what we would of had. We will have a little extra, but like 1/3 of what we would of had.

Also, if we do tithe, what about any over time he gets? Can we keep that for ourselves as we are already being faithful and obedient to God and sacrificing 10% and my husband is working hard to bring in any extra pay to put down on our bills. Or should we do 10% from that also?

Wild horses can't make me tithe! That doesn't mean that I don't give, donate or support ministries. I absolutely believe in those things and supporting good works. But, I don't tithe any particular percentage because tithing is old mosaic law and scripture says if you are going to keep one part of the law, you must keep it all. I am not capable of keeping the old law and depend soley on Jesus' perfect Sacrifice for my salvation.

Marc B
Jan 17th 2009, 11:57 PM
I'm not trying to debate - but if you are willing to look at it like giving to God first, because we put him first - then you can give of your increase. There are many places taxes go to, and if they add up too much then God is last and gets the leftovers.

If you are self-employed you get paid before taxes, so that's a good example to see why we should put God first instead of 2nd or last in the line.


You still didn't answer my question Julian. How would you resolve the 95% tax issue you brought up? I'm not trying to make excuses, just looking for real life practicle answers here. It's easy to quote scripture but it's not always so easy to put them into real life practice.

Julian
Jan 18th 2009, 12:45 AM
I don't really understand the whole idea of giving before taxes, if then, you won't have enough to pay your rent/mortagage, etc. I'm just not too sure God would want that, when you've made a commitment.

Romans 13:7-8 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?passage=Romans+13%3A7-8) Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Psalm 37:21: 21 The wicked borrow and do not repay, but the righteous give generously;

Ecclesiastes 5:4 When you make a vow to God, do not be late in paying it; for He takes no delight in fools. Pay what you vow!

Those verses also make me rethink on tithing 10% if you can't pay all of your debts...The whole point is trusting in God to supply your needs. You give to God first and he takes care of your needs.

Wouldn't it be a step of faith to give to God when you have need instead of putting him 2nd or last and not having faith that he'll supply?

The whole concept goes against the commom way of thinking - but then it is God supplying your needs instead of you or some other man.

Those verses you provided are true, but we still need to put God first.

Julian
Jan 18th 2009, 12:50 AM
You still didn't answer my question Julian. How would you resolve the 95% tax issue you brought up? I'm not trying to make excuses, just looking for real life practicle answers here. It's easy to quote scripture but it's not always so easy to put them into real life practice.
I hope you can learn from the rest of what I said even though you have this hangup.

God will supply your needs if you trust him and put him first. That's a concrete promise. So if you want to put him last and pay everyone else first, then you aren't believing his promise. I would trust God to get me into a better situation than only having 5% of my income after taxes are factored in, and I'd put him first in giving to take a step of faith and get out of that situation.

Veretax
Jan 18th 2009, 01:53 AM
I hope you can learn from the rest of what I said even though you have this hangup.

God will supply your needs if you trust him and put him first. That's a concrete promise. So if you want to put him last and pay everyone else first, then you aren't believing his promise. I would trust God to get me into a better situation than only having 5% of my income after taxes are factored in, and I'd put him first in giving to take a step of faith and get out of that situation.


We should remember that just because we trust Christ for something, does not mean he will grant it. What if the dead end low wage job you have is where God wants you? there is nothing in the Gospel that guarantees that we will receive what we deem to be "acceptable" income, and there is nothing that says he will give an increase either. As a matter of fact, back when I tried to tithe, I found the lord actually decreased my income , or at least allowed my employer to do so. Therefore I cannot agree that simply trusting God to do something will guarantee it happens, the things he does have to be in accordance with his will, whether we like it or not.

Julian
Jan 18th 2009, 02:51 AM
We should remember that just because we trust Christ for something, does not mean he will grant it. What if the dead end low wage job you have is where God wants you? there is nothing in the Gospel that guarantees that we will receive what we deem to be "acceptable" income, and there is nothing that says he will give an increase either. As a matter of fact, back when I tried to tithe, I found the lord actually decreased my income , or at least allowed my employer to do so. Therefore I cannot agree that simply trusting God to do something will guarantee it happens, the things he does have to be in accordance with his will, whether we like it or not.
I'm talking about God supplying your needs, as the scriptures say - not necessarily having the perfect wage at a job. God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, even if we have a lower paying job. The first step is believing his word, walking out in faith and putting him first in our lives.

The Lord didn't decrease your income, your employer made that decision.

There is a scripture that says "I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health."

Marc B
Jan 18th 2009, 04:39 AM
I hope you can learn from the rest of what I said even though you have this hangup.

God will supply your needs if you trust him and put him first. That's a concrete promise. So if you want to put him last and pay everyone else first, then you aren't believing his promise. I would trust God to get me into a better situation than only having 5% of my income after taxes are factored in, and I'd put him first in giving to take a step of faith and get out of that situation.

I already know about putting God first. You believe you have to give a tenth of your gross earnings even if your net is less than a tithe. Be that as it may. I believe a tenth of your net pay. What you see on your paycheck that you can put in the bank and spend. That's your increase. Firstfruits of that gain. Then pay your bills etc. That isn't putting God second, third or last. How can you give what you never had?

Julian
Jan 18th 2009, 04:20 PM
I already know about putting God first. You believe you have to give a tenth of your gross earnings even if your net is less than a tithe. Be that as it may. I believe a tenth of your net pay. What you see on your paycheck that you can put in the bank and spend. That's your increase. Firstfruits of that gain. Then pay your bills etc. That isn't putting God second, third or last. How can you give what you never had?
That's not putting God first. And if everyone else comes before God then he's last. If you have automatic withdrawls for federal taxes, social security, medicaid, state taxes, city taxes, local taxes, mortgage payment, local charities, seperate savings IRAs, and on down the line - then maybe you only take home 40% of what you EARN.

You get it all, but you choose where it goes. You may even get some back as a refund.

Teacup
Jan 19th 2009, 12:20 AM
I have always felt guilty, because I did not or sometimes could not tithe the 10%. However, I have found peace that when I do, I am always cheerful about it. And, I feel like I tithe NOT to be blessed, but because I AM blessed.:D

KingFisher
Jan 19th 2009, 01:30 PM
I agree with Julian,

firstfruits means firstfruits.

Like I quoted in my first post:

Mal 3:10 "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

If God said this, I believe it, I'm convinced!

Please answer some questions for me...

What was the tithe that was placed in the storehouse?

Meat? Why was there meat in this storehouse, when your trying to
show the context as money?

Was there only meat there?

Was money ever placed in the storehouse?

What did pour out when the windows of heaven opened?

What would this blessing be?

Thanks,
KingFisher

Emanate
Jan 19th 2009, 04:59 PM
Tithing was an obligation under the Mosaic Law and just like all the other goofy things that God made the Jews do, like dressing funny, and eating funny, we are not under any obligation to do those things.


Loving God, Loving your neighbor, honesty, and integrity are pretty goofy things.

I have never seen the Word of YHWH called "goofy" by a believer before.

Emanate
Jan 19th 2009, 05:12 PM
Deuteronomy 14

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year
23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

BroRog
Jan 19th 2009, 05:20 PM
Loving God, Loving your neighbor, honesty, and integrity are pretty goofy things.

I have never seen the Word of YHWH called "goofy" by a believer before.

The Mosaic Law describes God's moral vision. As such, it can be summed up, as Jesus said, in this way, "love your neighbor as yourself, and love God with all your heart, soul, and mind." Also, the Mosaic Law gives instructions to a people, living under the covenant at Mt. Sinai, for how to ritually express that moral vision.

So then, all human beings are obligated to live according to God's moral vision. At the same time, however, only the sons of Jacob, living under the covenant at Mt. Sinai are obligated to perform the ritual aspects of the law, which give expression to that moral vision.

The ritual aspects of the law are what I call the "goofy things."

Why do I use that terminology?

In snowboarding, I understand, the term "goofy" indicates when a person rides with the right foot forward. And just like I am not Jewish, I don't go snowboarding.

But whenever we do something out of the ordinary, something that causes us to stand out or be different, we are being "goofy."

The Mosaic Law contains hundreds of ordinances that made the citizens of Israel, under the Mt. Sinai covenant, stand out and be different. The Mosaic Law became the template and basis for an entire nation of "goofy" people, who were to be different from the rest of the world, to stand out, to remain unique, to be distinctive, to be holy. So Moses made the dress funny, eat funny, and act funny in all kinds of different ways so that God might have a holy people that stood out from among the rest of us Gentile dogs.

So then, if a person is going to express God's moral vision through the ritual aspects of the law, they are going to be goofy. Can't get around it.

What modern Jews must decide is when being goofy is worth it.

Emanate
Jan 19th 2009, 05:24 PM
The Mosaic Law describes God's moral vision. As such, it can be summed up, as Jesus said, in this way, "love your neighbor as yourself, and love God with all your heart, soul, and mind." Also, the Mosaic Law gives instructions to a people, living under the covenant at Mt. Sinai, for how to ritually express that moral vision.

So then, all human beings are obligated to live according to God's moral vision. At the same time, however, only the sons of Jacob, living under the covenant at Mt. Sinai are obligated to perform the ritual aspects of the law, which give expression to that moral vision.

The ritual aspects of the law are what I call the "goofy things."

Why do I use that terminology?

In snowboarding, I understand, the term "goofy" indicates when a person rides with the right foot forward. And just like I am not Jewish, I don't go snowboarding.

But whenever we do something out of the ordinary, something that causes us to stand out or be different, we are being "goofy."

The Mosaic Law contains hundreds of ordinances that made the citizens of Israel, under the Mt. Sinai covenant, stand out and be different. The Mosaic Law became the template and basis for an entire nation of "goofy" people, who were to be different from the rest of the world, to stand out, to remain unique, to be distinctive, to be holy. So Moses made the dress funny, eat funny, and act funny in all kinds of different ways so that God might have a holy people that stood out from among the rest of us Gentile dogs.

So then, if a person is going to express God's moral vision through the ritual aspects of the law, they are going to be goofy. Can't get around it.

What modern Jews must decide is when being goofy is worth it.


peculiar indeed.