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Elouise
Jan 15th 2009, 09:31 AM
What are your ideas/ concepts /beliefs about what sin is.

[If you know which school of theology or denomination your pov is from that would be most helpful to me]

mikebr
Jan 15th 2009, 01:01 PM
What are your ideas/ concepts /beliefs about what sin is.

[If you know which school of theology or denomination your pov is from that would be most helpful to me]

Sin is either a disease that needs a cure or a crime that needs to be punished.

The way you see sin determines the way you see God.

Walstib
Jan 15th 2009, 03:56 PM
Lately I have been defining sin as anything in us falling short of the glory of God that would dirty us and prevent us from being worthy of standing before the Father in heaven. Something that only the blood of our dear Saviour Jesus the Christ can cleanse us of.

Peace,
Joe

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 15th 2009, 04:30 PM
What are your ideas/ concepts /beliefs about what sin is.

[If you know which school of theology or denomination your pov is from that would be most helpful to me]


1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
5) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin

Sin according to the Greek Translation is translated as the above...
My thoughts on 'sin' .. are 'to miss the mark'.. and to miss or wander from the path of Uprightness and honour.. being outside of God's will.
As an avid archer and bowhunter I can relate to 'missing the mark'.. I thank God today for Jesus the Christ.. who didn't miss the mark.. He did what He did perfectly.. and what He was called to do. and He did it for our benefit... He did what we could never do nor attain.. because the flesh is weak. My 'FAITH' AND 'BELIEF' AND 'TRUST' in what He has accomplished on that bloody tree...... is what gets me thru.. Persevereing... to the end.. and putting that 'faith' belief and trust into Action.. moving forward in the Power of the Holy Ghost..as He calls me...doing whatever He calls me to do... in His Will...

Like He told the Jews when He tabernacled in the flesh here the first time..

If you don't believe He is, who He says He is, and repent.. then you will die in your sins..

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 04:53 PM
What are your ideas/ concepts /beliefs about what sin is.

[If you know which school of theology or denomination your pov is from that would be most helpful to me]

Two definitions presented in the Bible.

1. whatever is not from faith. (Romans 14:23)
2. the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)

faithfulfriend
Jan 15th 2009, 04:54 PM
What are your ideas/ concepts /beliefs about what sin is.

[If you know which school of theology or denomination your pov is from that would be most helpful to me]

Instead of using my ideas, I prefer to use the Bible. :D

I. Meanings of the term sin.
1. Sin as an act which is in violation of God's will
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

2. Sin as a state of condition
1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

3. Inbred sin or the Adamic nature
Ro 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

4. Sin as an attitude toward God
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

5. Mental sin without the outward overt act
Mt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

II. Sin as an act. Because of two concepts of sin in this respect this will be studied under two divisions.

1. The absolute view of sin. This view holds that any act short of absolute perfection is to some degree contrary to the will of God and hence constitutes sin, regardless of light, knowledge, intent, or circumstances involved. Since it is impossible for finite creatures to be absolute in their knowledge, this view of sin would make it impossible for any one to live free from sin. Yet, the Bible teaches that Christians do live holy lives which are free from sin. Therefore, this definition must be in error. There are certain scriptures that support this view however:
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

2. The view that sin is relative or conditional. It cannot be denied that the absolute view is true in a limited sense. The error in the above view is that sin is not imputed or charged against the individual on an absolute basis. The charging of sin is on a relative basis. When the transgression is not deliberate or rebellious, no guilt is incurred. Hence, the essential element of sin is not present. The general view of sin in the Bible is to disregard mistakes and errors of judgment, reserving the term sin for those transgressions that involve guilt; those that are imputed as sin:
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Joh 15:22-24 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

3. The results and correction of willful disobedience.

a. Rebellious acts or willful disobedience separates from God:
Ge 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

b. They produce spiritual death
Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Eze 18:20-24 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

c. The must be confessed and forsaken.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

III. Sin as a state or condition.
This simply means that one is living outside of the law; one whose way of life is not acceptable unto God. The wrath of God abides on these (John 3:36). This is comparable to an outlaw. In addition to specific acts of sin, they are essentially rebellious toward God.

IV. Original sin, inbred sin, Adamic nature, native depravity and other names have been applied to the derangements that are inherited from Adam as a result of the marring of the image of God through the first sin. All are born with it. It does not involve guilt. It is a weakness or tendency toward sin. It remains in the justified Christian. It is removed in the experience of Sanctification or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is essentially rebellious. Texts covering these points can be given in the study of the experience of Bible Sanctification.

V. Sin as an attitude towards God. A legitimate act becomes sin if done with an attitude of rebellion.
Ro 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Ro 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

VI. Mental sin without the outward or overt act. This involves the consent of the will to an act known to be evil. It may or may not lead to the consummation of the act. It precedes the overt act, and is therefore separate from it. One first decides to do it, or at least would be prepared to do it if conditions permitted. This constitutes sin, and must be confessed regardless of whether the actual act was committed or not. See (Matthew 5:28). This should not be confused with temptation.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 04:56 PM
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Anytime we disobey a commandment from the bible, it's sin.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We don't disobey anymore.

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 05:23 PM
We don't disobey anymore.


So you are telling me you don't sin anymore?

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 05:32 PM
So you are telling me you don't sin anymore?

Let me just say that "Whoever is born of God cannot sin." and "Sin is transgression of the law."

So, if one is born of God, one cannot transgress the law.

faithfulfriend
Jan 15th 2009, 05:45 PM
Let me just say that "Whoever is born of God cannot sin." and "Sin is transgression of the law."

So, if one is born of God, one cannot transgress the law.

Committing a sin is a choice. One can choose to sin [disobey God] or one can choose to not sin [obey God].

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 05:55 PM
Committing a sin is a choice. One can choose to sin [disobey God] or one can choose to not sin [obey God].

Sounds great.

But when God gave a command, sin sprang up and we died.

My Bible states "God has bound all men over to disobedience". If God binds all men to do something, can they refuse to do it? Can man refuse to not be disobedient? Kind of a contradiction in itself, is it not?

Think of the statement that is made if you say man has a choice - Man can choose to obey the law and thus disobey God who bound man over to be disobedient.

faithfulfriend
Jan 15th 2009, 05:57 PM
Sounds great.

But when God gave a command, sin sprang up and we died.

My Bible states "God has bound all men over to disobedience". If God binds all men to do something, can they refuse to do it? Can man refuse to not be disobedient? Kind of a contradiction in itself, is it not?

Think of the statement that is made if you say man has a choice - Man can choose to obey the law and thus disobey God who bound man over to be disobedient.

No it's not a contradiction, but if we want to discuss Predestination....you may create a new thread to do so.

I'm not going to derail from the OP.

Elouise
Jan 15th 2009, 06:09 PM
Mikebr



The way you see sin determines the way you see God.

I have to agree with this, it also affects how we see the need of salvation.

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 06:09 PM
The subject is "What are your ideas/ concepts /beliefs about what sin is. "

You say sin is a choice.

God said that He bound all men over to disobedience (sin).

faithfulfriend
Jan 15th 2009, 06:54 PM
The subject is "What are your ideas/ concepts /beliefs about what sin is. "

You say sin is a choice.

God said that He bound all men over to disobedience (sin).

Sin is the transgression of the law.


I John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.



This law is the law of Christ.


Galatians 6:2 - Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.



John 12:48 - He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Sin is a willful transgression.


John 9:41 - Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


James 4:17 - Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Walstib
Jan 15th 2009, 07:39 PM
Hi Yuke
Two definitions presented in the Bible.I think an argument could be made there are more than two but I won't argue with the plain wording of the scripture you posted.;)

Few questions for you, if you are in to it.
1. whatever is not from faith. (Romans 14:23)What does this mean? What other scriptures are there that help explain what things not done in faith are.
2. the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4) What law would you say is being talked about here?

Peace,
Joe

Yukerboy
Jan 15th 2009, 09:08 PM
Sin is the transgression of the law.
I John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Amen.



This law is the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2 - Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


And...Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

Love one another and fulfill the law. Love one another and you cannot sin. Love one another and you are born again.

But the law of Christ is not the law of sin and death, which is the law that is being talked about in sin being the transgression of the law. We are no longer under that law, but under grace. This is why John is correct in saying "whosoever is born of God cannot sin"


John 12:48 - He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Amen.



Sin is a willful transgression.
John 9:41 - Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


Sin sprang to life when the command came. The law was made to increase the transgression.


James 4:17 - Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Exactly. As one who is born again, our mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit, we do good. If you continue to love one another, you do not sin.


Originally Posted by Yukerboy http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1945445#post1945445)
1. whatever is not from faith. (Romans 14:23)
What does this mean? What other scriptures are there that help explain what things not done in faith are.

Anything not done in faith is sin. If you do not have faith, then everything you do whether "good" or bad, is sin.


Originally Posted by Yukerboy http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1945445#post1945445)
2. the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)
What law would you say is being talked about here?

The law of sin and death.

Walstib
Jan 16th 2009, 01:56 AM
Hi Yuke,
Anything not done in faith is sin. If you do not have faith, then everything you do whether "good" or bad, is sin.
Looking at the passage we can see there are people being addressed that have doubt. To me I think it hard to argue they are not doubters with faith. He has faith but it not acting from that faith, but from doubt, therefore the action is rightly judged as sinful.

Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. (Rom 14:22-23 NKJV)

Consider Peter on the lake.

But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid." And Peter answered Him and said, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water." So He said, "Come." And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!" And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.(Mat 14:27-32 NKJV)

Peter has faith, enough to be walking on the water for a while, then doubt came and he started to sink.

I would agree there are "good" actions that are sinful when not coming from faith, but that does not prove that with faith everything that is done is a holy action.
The law of sin and death.What is the law of sin and death? Please humor me I want to understand your definitions before I jump to conclusions.

Example: Where would you place this reference to being Holy in your understanding?

Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." (1Pe 1:13-16 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 02:28 AM
I would agree there are "good" actions that are sinful when not coming from faith, but that does not prove that with faith everything that is done is a holy action.

"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. (1 Corinthians 10:23)

Paul allows that everything is permissible for the born again, but points out that not everything is beneficial or constructive.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (Galatians 5:18)

We are no longer under law. The very definition of sin is transgression of the law. (1 John 3:3)

John then confirms all of this when he says Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

Now, John doesn't make a mistake here. John could have said ought not to sin or should not sin (implying no permission), but he says cannot and does not (implying inability).

Thus, not everything we do is profitable or constructive, but it is also not sin.


What is the law of sin and death? Please humor me I want to understand your definitions before I jump to conclusions.

Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

The law that God handed down, the commandments of God are the law of sin and death. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. (Romans 5:20)

The law itself, which is holy and good, afforded the opportunity to sin to deceive and put man to death.


Example: Where would you place this reference to being Holy in your understanding?

Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." (1Pe 1:13-16 NKJV)

This is like every other time the Epistles go on to exhort, to encourage, to strengthen.

This is all in making our election sure. To work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

These are not commands given to people to become saved or to continue to be saved. These are commands to make sure you are saved, that you are one of the elect.

It is very easy to say "I'm saved" and not be saved because you did not endure to the end. These commands are to ensure you endure to the end. It is works that prove out your faith.

Walstib
Jan 16th 2009, 04:19 AM
Hi Yuke,
"Everything is permissible"óbut not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"óbut not everything is constructive. (1 Corinthians 10:23)

Paul allows that everything is permissible for the born again, but points out that not everything is beneficial or constructive.
Focusing on sin, for something to be permissible there is a law that governs the reasoning behind it. Thatís the NIV you are quoting right? Many others, KJV for one, use the word lawful.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (1Co 10:23 KJV)

So then it leads to your next partÖ

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (Galatians 5:18)

We are no longer under law. The very definition of sin is transgression of the law. (1 John 3:3)Letís consider permissible things in the light of law and judgment. More from the Galatians chapter..

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.(Gal 5:13-18 NIV)

Weíll throw in this one too, you already spoke of it.

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:3-4 NIV)

You say ďthe very definition ofĒ in your reply, yet you used two different verses as a definition yourself before. What law is being transgressed when not doing something in faith? There is still law and sin regardless of whether the righteous requirements are met in us or not. Meeting the righteous requirements involves not imputing sinful actions.

just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." (Rom 4:6-8 NKJV)

A someone whose sins are covered, has sin that is covered. They donít have no sin, as per 1 John 1:8, they have sin that is taken care of by grace through Faith in our crucified Lord Jesus. To not define a sinful act as a sin gives too many verses no meaning at all.

With the rest of your post, I heard you. Iíll find some time soon to get to more of it.

Peace,
Joe

Ixthus
Jan 16th 2009, 04:23 AM
To not do God's will.

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 05:56 AM
Hi Yuke, Focusing on sin, for something to be permissible there is a law that governs the reasoning behind it. Thatís the NIV you are quoting right? Many others, KJV for one, use the word lawful.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (1Co 10:23 KJV)


I like that translation better for this verse. Let's go with that. If everything is lawful to those who are saved, then transgressing the law becomes impossible.



So then it leads to your next partÖLetís consider permissible things in the light of law and judgment. More from the Galatians chapter..

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.(Gal 5:13-18 NIV)

Weíll throw in this one too, you already spoke of it.

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:3-4 NIV)

You say ďthe very definition ofĒ in your reply, yet you used two different verses as a definition yourself before. What law is being transgressed when not doing something in faith? There is still law and sin regardless of whether the righteous requirements are met in us or not. Meeting the righteous requirements involves not imputing sinful actions.


Once again, if you are born again, then being under grace and not under law allows you to do whatever without breaking the law.

For those who are born again, Christ abolished in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. (Ephesians 2:15)

We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers (1 Timothy 1:9)

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)




just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." (Rom 4:6-8 NKJV)

A someone whose sins are covered, has sin that is covered. They donít have no sin, as per 1 John 1:8, they have sin that is taken care of by grace through Faith in our crucified Lord Jesus. To not define a sinful act as a sin gives too many verses no meaning at all.


Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:17-18)

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

Paul did not deny he had sin. He said it dwells within him (that is, in his flesh).


With the rest of your post, I heard you. Iíll find some time soon to get to more of it.

Look forward to it.

mikebr
Jan 16th 2009, 12:29 PM
What if sin could be defined and a solution for it could be found on a message board? It would have saved God a lot of time:hmm:............and all that nasty old cross stuff would have been unnecessary.


We don't have a sin problem they have a "Son" problem.

matthew7and1
Jan 16th 2009, 12:31 PM
Lately I have been defining sin as anything in us falling short of the glory of God that would dirty us and prevent us from being worthy of standing before the Father in heaven. Something that only the blood of our dear Saviour Jesus the Christ can cleanse us of.

Peace,
Joe
I like this definition best of all. I would submit this same response...

Walstib
Jan 17th 2009, 04:52 AM
John then confirms all of this when he says Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

Now, John doesn't make a mistake here. John could have said ought not to sin or should not sin (implying no permission), but he says cannot and does not (implying inability).
Thus, not everything we do is profitable or constructive, but it is also not sin.

I understand the verse says what it says. As we have spoke of before you comment that Jesus, when tempted, did not say the scripture the devil used was wrong. With this truth goes another, that He used other scripture. Why? This part of the reasoning should be included. He put the scripture the enemy used in context.

We could go off on a bunny trail about how to define the word context. Without going there I am just pointing out this is how I understand one truth does not cancel the other out, but they explain each other.

So I agree with you that the verse states one born of God cannot sin, yet this has to be in a way that agrees with all else that is said about the regenerate and sin. Lets go to the next chapter in Galatians.

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his own load. (Gal 6:1-5 NKJV)

I see these people overtaken in trespass are brethren. Following the advice to restore someone with gentleness leads to fulfilling the law of Christ. Where did this law come from when we are not under law?

If this shows a brethren in trespass it must show a deeper meaning to the verse that plainly states they cannot sin. The question I ask myself is not which one is true, but why are both true. And in that I know I can only know anything in part and dimly now anyway.

Peace,
Joe

Yukerboy
Jan 17th 2009, 04:16 PM
I understand the verse says what it says. As we have spoke of before you comment that Jesus, when tempted, did not say the scripture the devil used was wrong. With this truth goes another, that He used other scripture. Why? This part of the reasoning should be included. He put the scripture the enemy used in context.

We could go off on a bunny trail about how to define the word context. Without going there I am just pointing out this is how I understand one truth does not cancel the other out, but they explain each other.

So I agree with you that the verse states one born of God cannot sin, yet this has to be in a way that agrees with all else that is said about the regenerate and sin. Lets go to the next chapter in Galatians.

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his own load. (Gal 6:1-5 NKJV)

I see these people overtaken in trespass are brethren. Following the advice to restore someone with gentleness leads to fulfilling the law of Christ. Where did this law come from when we are not under law?

If this shows a brethren in trespass it must show a deeper meaning to the verse that plainly states they cannot sin. The question I ask myself is not which one is true, but why are both true. And in that I know I can only know anything in part and dimly now anyway.

Peace,
Joe

Joe, I understand what you are saying.

All Scripture is true. If one verse says something, another verse in another book may explain it more in depth.

I see those "people overtaken in trespass" as believers, though not necessarily born again. Not only that, but Paul then also warns that you "who are spiritual" may also be tempted. We must then rectify this in the light of John saying "whoever is born of God cannot sin, for God's seed remains in Him."

Paul states that "if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, deceives himself".

This means to me that one who thinks he is born again, but is not born again and deceives himself, while believing he is born again and cannot sin, will find that he actually is not born again and sin.

This is all along the lines of making your election sure, enduring to the end, working out your salvation with fear and trembling.

This is why I negate the fact of those who claim that believe and be saved is a "license to sin". It is not. If one believes because he is born again, he can sin as he chooses and still be saved, that one really needs to look at whether he is truly born again or of those that believe for a while and then fall away.

Remember in Luke 8:13 Christ states that those who believe for a while and then fall away did so because "these have no root" and fell "in time of temptation".

This is why I posted some of the characteristics of those who are born again for post 500.

We know that those who are born again:
1. Cannot sin (1 John 3:9)
2. Unable to be deceived (Matthew 24:24)
3. Stand firm to the end (Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)
4. Love one another (Romans 13:8)
5. Are kept strong to the end by Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8)
6. Made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21)

As for the law of Christ. Loving one another is the law of Christ. Those who are born again will love one another (Point #4). They fulfill the law of Christ. However, the law of sin and death, the Mosaic law which was handed down, was written for the unrighteous, the ungodly, the unholy. The born again are made righteous, godly, and holy and no longer are under the law of sin and death, but fulfill the law of Christ.

So, when people on here see what I say and ask "do you sin?", my answer is I don't believe I do, for I believe I am born again. However, if I am wrong, I do sin for I am still under the law of sin and death and will be condemned to hell. I have not endured to the end yet and only then will I know that I am born again. And that goes for all of us.

Right now, I can claim beyond a shadow of a doubt that I believe.

One of the greatest Scriptures that is used wrongly (meaning it is true, but other verses expound on it) is John 3:16.

If I went by John 3:16 alone, I should be able to say beyond a shadow of a douobt that I will not perish but have everlasting life, for I believe.

But what of those who fall away? They believed for a while, too. This is why Christ also said in Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

So it is not just believe in Christ and never perish, but believe in Christ, and endure to the end. All who are born again will do so. Not one who is born again will fail to endure to the end or fail to believe in Christ. God even promises that they will be kept strong to the end by Christ and Christ does not fail. However, there are many (all of us included) that believe they are born again and may actually not be.

All the exhortations to do something are made for us, meaning those who believe they are born again. It doesn't mean that we are, but we are told these characteristics are those of the born again, the ones that will be saved and never perish.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 18th 2009, 12:48 AM
Exactly. As one who is born again, our mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit, we do good. If you continue to love one another, you do not sin.
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This lines up with what Paul taught in Romans.. He defined the 'conflict' between his flesh and walking in the Spirit...

Paul rejoiced in the fact that he served the Law of God thru Christ Jesus with his mind.. but with his flesh he served the law of sin.. He had no confidence in his flesh...

Paul stated that 'that which I want TO DO.. I do not.. but that which I HATE .. that I DO... He stated the reason for doing that 'which HE HATED was the law of sin which was in his flesh.. and in his flesh dwelleth no good thing.. He had 'no confidence in it'..

He even goes on to reveal that it wasnt even 'him' that did those things he hated.. but that the law of sin in his flesh...
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For the good that I would, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
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Paul discovered a law that when he did good... 'evil' was present with him.... and he reveals that he delighted in the Law of God after the 'inward man'.. which is not tied ot the the flesh.. Its the "Inward man".. where Jesus dwells thru His Spirit.. and where you 'walk in the Spirit'..

Paul also goes on to reveal that there is a war going on.. he 'saw' that.. it brought his members into captivity to the law of sin which was in his flesh.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

From here he goes on to rejoice in the fact that he served the Law of God thru Christ Jesus with his mind and not in his flesh..


Was Paul justifying 'sinning' in these verses? No. he was revealing the reality of the conflict in the believers body.. He goes on later to address that if we 'walk in the Spirit'.. communion with God in the 'inner man'.. then we will not fullfill the lusts of the flesh...

In the next chapter he goes on to reveal that there is 'no condemnation' at all for those who are in Christ Jesus and those who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh...

For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death... it had no more power over him... was there still sin in his flesh? yes.. he states it in prior verses....it hadn't vanished.. but was still there... and this is why the flesh returns to the dust at death........................ and he even states that when he did err.. it wasnt even him that did it but 'sin' that dwelleth in him.. in his flesh... but He served God with His inner man...and his mind.....and this thru the power of the Spirit.. and He rejoiced to the future day when he will be delivered from that body of death which is his flesh..

Sin is not imputed where there is no Law.... and Paul lived by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus... for Christ fulfilled the Law...

We are debtors 'not to the flesh'.. but to the Spirit and thru the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh.. that is put to death.. so that you will walk in the Spirit...

There is a day coming though when believers will recieve that 'new body'.. glorified body.. at the Resurrection.. a body which will no longer have a law of sin in it.. it wont be subject to death or disease.. but it will be Eternal... Immortal.. a body like Jesus's body..

Born Again Believers from Above.... Serve God with their 'inner man' and a 'mind' that is in Christ Jesus.. that 'inner man'... soul/spirit/inner thoughts(mind) and have no confidence in the flesh.. That "inner man".. where you learn and are in communion with Jesus the Christ.. this is where 'LIFE"' is found and its in Jesus the Christ...

holyrokker
Jan 18th 2009, 02:03 AM
From Chapter 3 of The God They Never Knew by George Otis Jr.



Sin is a transgression of God's moral law, the intent to live supremely for oneself at whatever the cost. It is a premeditated, calculated choice to live in a manner contrary to your original design. There is absolutely no ignorance involved in sin.

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 9:41

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

James 4:17

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin; but now they have no cloak for their sin .... If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

John 15:22,24

It is most enlightening to look at the various scriptural words used to describe sin. When the root words are analyzed in the original biblical languages (Greek-N.T.; Hebrew-O.T.), the overwhelming evidence is that man is a rebel choosing to violate known requisites. Here is a sampling:

* To act perversely, to twist and distort
* To be stubbornly disobedient
* To refuse to serve God
* To act treacherously or deceitfully
* To be rebellious
* To be lawless, to refuse to conform
* To be obstinate or uncompliant
* To deviate from the right
* To be ungodly, to act impiously
* To be unjust, to refuse to do right.


http://revivaltheology.gharvest.com/14_natureofsin/otis3.html

Walstib
Jan 18th 2009, 02:52 AM
Joe, I understand what you are saying.Great! Thing is this thread is about sin. Now you must type faster than me, but still... there could be books written about each of those precepts you mentioned in your replies. Your answers became focused on teaching me the doctrine you have all nicely bundled up.

I don't want to reply to the whole shebang every topic we meet in. I still have not got through just your first post.

Peace,
Joe

Diolectic
Jan 18th 2009, 03:50 AM
What are your ideas/ concepts /beliefs about what sin is.All sin is:
Whatever is not of faith (when able) is sin. Romans 14:23

Knowingly transgressing the law is sin. 1John 3:4

Knowing to do good and not doing it is sin (within context). James 4:17

All (things in the category of) unrighteousness is sin. 1John 5:17

There is another concept of sin which is spoken of as in Romans 7; this is the unlawful desires which are in the flesh (Romans 7:23,8:3b)



[If you know which school of theology or denomination your pov is from that would be most helpful to me]Pelagian/Molinist (No, I am not a heritic :cool:)

Diolectic
Jan 18th 2009, 04:11 AM
Let me just say that "Whoever is born of God cannot sin." and "Sin is transgression of the law."

So, if one is born of God, one cannot transgress the law.If you interpreted the Scriptures correctly, you would know that the word for "sin" in that verse is in the infinitive mood, present, & active.

Therefore, the verse should be interpreted as:
1John 3:9 Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God."
IOW, those who are begotten of God can not continualy practise sin, because that would be proving him to not be begotten of God
The next verse proves this:
1Jn 3:10 In this are apparent the children of God and the children of the Adversary: everyone who is not doing righteousness is not of God, and who is not loving his brother."

Yukerboy
Jan 18th 2009, 07:25 PM
If you interpreted the Scriptures correctly, you would know that the word for "sin" in that verse is in the infinitive mood, present, & active.

Therefore, the verse should be interpreted as:
1John 3:9 Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God."
IOW, those who are begotten of God can not continualy practise sin, because that would be proving him to not be begotten of God
The next verse proves this:
1Jn 3:10 In this are apparent the children of God and the children of the Adversary: everyone who is not doing righteousness is not of God, and who is not loving his brother."


Fine, I'll use your interpretation and rephrase what I said earlier.

I said..
"Let me just say that "Whoever is born of God cannot sin." and "Sin is transgression of the law."

So, if one is born of God, one cannot transgress the law."

I now change that, at the pleasure of diolectic.

Let me just say that "Whoever is born of God cannot be sinning." and "Sinning is transgressing the law."

So, if one is born of God, one cannot be transgressing the law.

Happy?

holyrokker
Jan 18th 2009, 11:10 PM
Happy?

Of course I'm happy. My happiness is not conditioned upon your theological view point! ;)

I hope you have a wonderful day.

Diolectic
Jan 18th 2009, 11:58 PM
Therefore, the verse should be interpreted as:
1John 3:9 Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God."
IOW, those who are begotten of God can not continualy practise sin, because that would be proving him to not be begotten of God
The next verse proves this:
1Jn 3:10 In this are apparent the children of God and the children of the Adversary: everyone who is not doing righteousness is not of God, and who is not loving his brother."Fine, I'll use your interpretation and rephrase what I said earlier.

I said..
"Let me just say that "Whoever is born of God cannot sin." and "Sin is transgression of the law."

So, if one is born of God, one cannot transgress the law."

I now change that, at the pleasure of diolectic.

Let me just say that "Whoever is born of God cannot be sinning." and "Sinning is transgressing the law."

So, if one is born of God, one cannot be transgressing the law.

Happy?No, I am not happy, because knowing you, you still take it out of context.

It means that anyone who is born of God and sins (every once in a whgil as stumbeling), still transgresses the law, because all sin is transgression of the law.
However, if one calls himself a christian and PRACTISE sin &/or continues IN sinis not is not of God & not realy a christisn, but is lying to himself (1John 2:4).

Yukerboy
Jan 19th 2009, 01:42 AM
No, I am not happy, because knowing you, you still take it out of context.

It means that anyone who is born of God and sins (every once in a whgil as stumbeling), still transgresses the law, because all sin is transgression of the law.
However, if one calls himself a christian and PRACTISE sin &/or continues IN sinis not is not of God & not realy a christisn, but is lying to himself (1John 2:4).

Diolectic and God: sin is transgression of the law.

Diolectic: anyone who is born of God and sins (every once in a whgil as stumbeling), still transgresses the law

God: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I'll stand by God's Word.

Diolectic
Jan 19th 2009, 02:56 AM
Diolectic and God: sin is transgression of the law.

Diolectic: anyone who is born of God and sins (every once in a whgil as stumbeling), still transgresses the law

God: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I'll stand by God's Word.Yah, you'll stand by your wrong interpretaion of Scripture.
1John 3:9 those who are begotten of God can not continualy practise sin, (because that would be proving him to not be begotten of God) for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practise) sin, because he is born of God.
Those practising sin do not have the Seed in him.

You say that a christian can't sin? That's a new one.

Yukerboy
Jan 19th 2009, 03:21 AM
Yah, you'll stand by your wrong interpretaion of Scripture.
1John 3:9those who are begotten of God can not continualy practise sin, (because that would be proving him to not be begotten of God) for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practise) sin, because he is born of God.
Those practising sin do not have the Seed in him.

You say that a christian can't sin? That's a new one.

You may add whatever words to Scripture you like.

My Bible says "whoever is born of God cannot sin".

If it is a new one to you, may I suggest a reading of the Scriptures without preconceived notions?

yaza
Jan 19th 2009, 04:18 AM
Let me just say that "Whoever is born of God cannot sin." and "Sin is transgression of the law."

So, if one is born of God, one cannot transgress the law.
john also said if you say you have no sin you are a liar. the sin here is unbelief in jesus. please dont say you have stopped sinning, im sure the people that live around you would have something to say about that. besides if you could become perfectly sinless what would you need jesus for. yaza

Yukerboy
Jan 19th 2009, 06:05 AM
john also said if you say you have no sin you are a liar. the sin here is unbelief in jesus. please dont say you have stopped sinning, im sure the people that live around you would have something to say about that. besides if you could become perfectly sinless what would you need jesus for. yaza

Yaza, not only do I not sin if I am born again, but, if you are born again, you don't sin either. Not only that, but even if you thought you wanted to sin, you couldn't, for you are born again. Being born again, you no longer have the ability to sin.

Now, onto 1 John 1:8

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You said "the sin here is unbelief in jesus". Let's replace sin here with your definition and see how it works out.

If we say we have no unbelief in jesus, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

That can't be correct. Even if you cancel the double negative:

If we say we have belief in jesus, we deceive ourselves....

So, let's go with what John says and take it from there.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yet...

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Both of these Scriptures must be true, but it is a seeming contradiction.

How can the born again be unable to sin, yet have sin?

Paul answers it in the following:

Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul says he wants to do good (his mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit {Romans 8:6}) but the evil (in other words, sin) he doesn't want to do, he does. So, if he does that (sin) which he does not want to do (his mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit), it is no longer Paul who does it, but the sin that dwells in Paul (his flesh).

So, as you can see, Paul, who has sin dwelling in his flesh, cannot claim to be without sin and deceive himself, yet Paul himself does not sin.

Elouise
Jan 19th 2009, 10:15 AM
Diolectic.
Thank you.

Guess which lucky soul has been thrown straight into an advanced soteriology course to stop me from getting bored.
I have not managed to play catch up with the other students as they had chance to do reading prep in advance.
I worked out that how we view sin affects how we consider salvation and even God.
Currently looking into the possibility that the western concept of shame may have partly replaced concepts of sin but this still rejects the idea of 'otherness'.
As soon as I can gt to the library today I will check out those two schools of thinking on harmiotology[sp?]

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 19th 2009, 06:17 PM
Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul says he wants to do good (his mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit {Romans 8:6}) but the evil (in other words, sin) he doesn't want to do, he does. So, if he does that (sin) which he does not want to do (his mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit), it is no longer Paul who does it, but the sin that dwells in Paul (his flesh).

So, as you can see, Paul, who has sin dwelling in his flesh, cannot claim to be without sin and deceive himself, yet Paul himself does not sin.
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Exactly! This is what I spoke about in my post earlier... Paul rejoiced in the fact that He served God thru the Spirit with His mind.. but with the flesh the law of sin.. which was still present in his flesh..and in his flesh he had no confidence.. and when he did err.. it wasnt even him that 'did' it.. but the law of sin in his flesh.. and this is the reason the 'body' returns to the 'dust'.. the soul and spirit are saved, washed, and sanctified and justified.. but that flesh returns to the dust.. only sometime in the future.. that body will be transformed into a 'body' that has no law of sin in it.. and is not subject to the 2nd death.. will not disease or die.. when mortality puts on immortality.. and when corruption puts on incorruption.... that's why God had to come here in the flesh.. and do it perfectly.. He did what we could never do and thru Him we have Eternal life and a future glorified body that will house our Saved souls and spirits... Paul was not 'advocating sin' or 'sinning' but he was revealing the conflict between walking in the Spirit and the flesh.. that war that goes on and he saw it and experienced .. if he didn't he wouldnt be writing about it under the Inspiritation of the Holy Ghost......
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For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
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who shall deliver me from this body of this death? Oh but that be Jesus Christ.. when He gives His own that Resurrected Body like His..

now the body is dead because of sin.. but the spirit is 'alive' because of Righteousness.. is that our Righteousness..? mine is like filthy rags.. but its His.. His Gift to His Own.. and His is Perfect..

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And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
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Diolectic
Jan 19th 2009, 08:20 PM
So, as you can see, Paul, who has sin dwelling in his flesh, cannot claim to be without sin and deceive himself, yet Paul himself does not sin. Romans 7:19 I don't do the good that I actually want to do, but I do the evil that I don't want to do.
20 Now if I habitually do what I actually prefer not to do, it is no longer I who am doing it, but my own fleshly desires that dwell within me.
That "sin" wich "dwells" in his members are unlawful affections &/or desires.

The ''law of sin'' in verse 23 is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.
The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.