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mikebr
Jan 16th 2009, 12:50 PM
"I exhort therefore, that, supplications, prayers, intercessions, -and giving of thanks be made for all men .... this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to be saved' --1 Timothy 2:14.

Assuming that you believe that "will" means "desire". do you desire that all men (and women;)) be saved?

matthew7and1
Jan 16th 2009, 12:55 PM
yes i do!
but admittedly it is sometimes hard to remember that everyone is God's child when you are struggling. even your enemies.

Yukerboy
Jan 16th 2009, 06:07 PM
Assuming that you believe that "will" means "desire". do you desire that all men (and women) be saved?

Wow, what a great question. Right away my mind went to Osama bin Laden. If I had the chance, would I tell him Christ died for him or tell him to literally go to hell? Then, even if he did accept Christ as his Savior, would I be joyful or be the brother of the prodigal son?

Really made me think.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Not to derail the thread, as it is a good OP, but there are those who are children of God, and then those who are not.

mikebr
Jan 16th 2009, 08:52 PM
Wow, what a great question. Right away my mind went to Osama bin Laden. If I had the chance, would I tell him Christ died for him or tell him to literally go to hell? Then, even if he did accept Christ as his Savior, would I be joyful or be the brother of the prodigal son?

Really made me think.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Not to derail the thread, as it is a good OP, but there are those who are children of God, and then those who are not.

I almost put that this verse was a good argument against limited atonement but knew what direction it would go in.

all means all or it doesn't

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 12:58 AM
"I exhort therefore, that, supplications, prayers, intercessions, -and giving of thanks be made for all men .... this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to be saved' --1 Timothy 2:14.

Assuming that you believe that "will" means "desire". do you desire that all men (and women;)) be saved?

Sometimes i wish everyone would just be magically transformed into a Christian lol that would solve all world problems haha but i must admit i am lacking in the witnessing department and i need to step my game up by grace. Yes, i wish everyone would be saved even Hitler. Why would we want anyone to go to hell? But also at the end of the day, for those who have refused to repent and accept Gods free gift, their punishment will be exactly what they deserve, unfortunately. Glory be to the One True and Just God

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 01:04 AM
I almost put that this verse was a good argument against limited atonement but knew what direction it would go in.

all means all or it doesn't

God does indeed will that all be saved. He desires all men to come to repentance

there is a sense in which everyone is a child of God because He is the Father of creation (the Father of all spirits) even demons were born of God before they rebelled.

However there is also a sense in which some people are sons of the devil and not sons of God.

Its a thin line but a line indeed that is drawn between the general(God loved the world, He is the Father of all spirits) and the particular(God hates all evildoers, some are sons of Satan, sons of disobedience)

but i do indeed think that the word "wills" in that verse means desires. If it meant the active will as in a will that will be accomplished that would be universalism

just my two pennies in the bucket of knowledge:cool:

mikebr
Jan 17th 2009, 02:44 AM
Sometimes i wish everyone would just be magically transformed into a Christian lol that would solve all world problems haha but i must admit i am lacking in the witnessing department and i need to step my game up by grace. Yes, i wish everyone would be saved even Hitler. Why would we want anyone to go to hell? But also at the end of the day, for those who have refused to repent and accept Gods free gift, their punishment will be exactly what they deserve, unfortunately. Glory be to the One True and Just God

If they are getting what they deserve why don't you get what you deserve or I get what I deserve? Is it because Jesus died on Calvary or because you have faith in why He died?

If God wants people to get what they deserve why did Jesus come in the first place?

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 03:21 AM
If they are getting what they deserve why don't you get what you deserve or I get what I deserve? Is it because Jesus died on Calvary or because you have faith in why He died?

If God doesn't want people to get what they deserve why did Jesus come in the first place?

Jesus came to display the glorious grace and love of God. Grace is getting what we dont deserve. SO those who dont accept Jesus will get what they deserve, and what we all deserve, which is seperation from God forever. When i mentioned Hitler what i was trying to say is that i dont care how evil someone is, i would like to see them saved. Why wouldnt i want someone to be saved? UNfortunately Hitler was not saved. I dont mean that i wish people who have died in unbelief would then be granted salvation in the afterlife, that would be unjust and a mockery of the righteousness of God. None of us deserve it so its not like i am better than Hitler or any other evil person. Maybe their evil is more manifest outwardly but i am just as evil inwardly if not for what God ha done for me and in me.

So i dont see why we wouldnt want someone to be saved? Now as far as those who died in hard-hearted unbelief, it is just that they suffer eternally to the glorious praise of the righteousness and justice of God

mikebr
Jan 17th 2009, 03:25 AM
Jesus came to display the glorious grace and love of God. Grace is getting what we dont deserve. SO those who dont accept Jesus will get what they deserve, and what we all deserve, which is seperation from God forever. When i mentioned Hitler what i was trying to say is that i dont care how evil someone is, i would like to see them saved. Why wouldnt i want someone to be saved? UNfortunately Hitler was not saved. I dont mean that i wish people who have died in unbelief would then be granted salvation in the afterlife, that would be unjust and a mockery of the righteousness of God. None of us deserve it so its not like i am better than Hitler or any other evil person. Maybe their evil is more manifest outwardly but i am just as evil inwardly if not for what God ha done for me and in me.

So i dont see why we wouldnt want someone to be saved? Now as far as those who died in hard-hearted unbelief, it is just that they suffer eternally to the glorious praise of the righteousness and justice of God


But you agree that God doesn't want them to?

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 03:30 AM
But you agree that God doesn't want them to?

God does not desire that any should perish and He does not delight in the death of the wicked. Thats all im sayin lol (im not the most educated in Scripture)

Ixthus
Jan 17th 2009, 05:22 AM
I do, but I know that it won't happen.

Vhayes
Jan 17th 2009, 05:30 AM
Yes, God desires that ALL men should come to Him. Will that happen? No. Is it my place to say who will and who won't? Nope.

Jesus came to earth the first time as a man, not to judge but to save. He will come again as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and He will judge at that point, not me and not anyone else.

As ghastly as this may sound, I pray that Osama bin Laden comes to know the Lord Jesus Christ as His savior.

I think we will all be very surprised by who we will meet in heaven and who will be conspicuously absent.

V

Dani H
Jan 17th 2009, 06:17 AM
Being born again and being forgiven does not mean "not reaping what we sow."

Just FYI. God is not mocked. What we do will certainly catch up with us, good or bad.

David was forgiven by God after what happened with Bathsheeba, but there were still consequences. God is merciful, but He will also judge, and in His judgment, show mercy because the two go hand in hand. In more modern days, Carla Faye Tucker (spelling?) the "ice pick murderer" received salvation but still also the death penalty for what she did before she was saved. That is justice and mercy working together. For some reason we think that salvation means "God lets us off the hook." He does not. He places us into His Kingdom so we can learn to live life under His rules so we can sow better seed and reap better fruit (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit) according to His ways, and not our own.

I still reaped what I had sown after I was saved (still am), and God uses that to teach and lead and guide and change me and bring me to repentance, and it happens completely under His control. Am I spared? No. Am I forgiven and made new? Certainly, because God isn't a liar. Has God ever turned His back on me? No, never. Is He still with me during those times of reaping from the non-God seeds? You bet your sweet tooshie. :)

So ... yes. I desire every man, woman and child to come to that place of surrender to Jesus. God is well able to take it from there. It's my job to be obedient and carry the Gospel message to all who would listen and receive it. It's not my job to play God and decide who is worthy, and under what circumstances, and what happens afterwards.

mikebr
Jan 17th 2009, 03:31 PM
Yes, God desires that ALL men should come to Him. Will that happen? No. Is it my place to say who will and who won't? Nope.

Jesus came to earth the first time as a man, not to judge but to save. He will come again as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and He will judge at that point, not me and not anyone else.

As ghastly as this may sound, I pray that Osama bin Laden comes to know the Lord Jesus Christ as His savior.

I think we will all be very surprised by who we will meet in heaven and who will be conspicuously absent.

V


The fact that it sounds ghastly to you indicates that something is wrong with our thinking. Why does it sound ghastly? Don't you think that what Jesus did on the cross was big enough to save Him. Will we rejoice more to see Billy Graham or Billy the Kid? I won't be surprised to see Billy Graham but I will be blown away by the power of the Cross if I see Hitler there.

timmyb
Jan 17th 2009, 04:27 PM
When we intercede for our unsaved friends and relatives we are partnering and identifying with God's desire to see all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth... All prayer should be is agreeing with who God is and what comes from that is a heart that is alive in knowledge of God... Intercession and agreement with God's desires results in Identification with God's heart on the issues that are most dear to his heart..

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 05:00 PM
Being born again and being forgiven does not mean "not reaping what we sow."

Just FYI. God is not mocked. What we do will certainly catch up with us, good or bad.

David was forgiven by God after what happened with Bathsheeba, but there were still consequences. God is merciful, but He will also judge, and in His judgment, show mercy because the two go hand in hand. In more modern days, Carla Faye Tucker (spelling?) the "ice pick murderer" received salvation but still also the death penalty for what she did before she was saved. That is justice and mercy working together. For some reason we think that salvation means "God lets us off the hook." He does not. He places us into His Kingdom so we can learn to live life under His rules so we can sow better seed and reap better fruit (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit) according to His ways, and not our own.

I still reaped what I had sown after I was saved (still am), and God uses that to teach and lead and guide and change me and bring me to repentance, and it happens completely under His control. Am I spared? No. Am I forgiven and made new? Certainly, because God isn't a liar. Has God ever turned His back on me? No, never. Is He still with me during those times of reaping from the non-God seeds? You bet your sweet tooshie. :)

So ... yes. I desire every man, woman and child to come to that place of surrender to Jesus. God is well able to take it from there. It's my job to be obedient and carry the Gospel message to all who would listen and receive it. It's not my job to play God and decide who is worthy, and under what circumstances, and what happens afterwards.

by not reaping what we sow i think most are refferring to entering heaven, not dealing with consequences of our actions here on Earth

i was talking about murderers like Paul who go to heaven even though they dont deserve it because Jesus called them. thats all i was talking about at least

JesusPhreak27
Jan 17th 2009, 05:11 PM
11In him we were also chosen,[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%201&version=31#fen-NIV-29202e)] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

(Ephesians 1:11-14 //NIV)

While it is my prayer that ALL come to know Jesus as their personal Savior, Paul tells us that we were predestined to be His followers and that not all are.

dan
Jan 18th 2009, 01:43 AM
"I exhort therefore, that, supplications, prayers, intercessions, -and giving of thanks be made for all men .... this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to be saved' --1 Timothy 2:14.

Assuming that you believe that "will" means "desire". do you desire that all men (and women;)) be saved?

But, God has imposed limits to how long He will wait, and how many can be saved, because of their belief.

Only one third of believers will be saved:

ZECH 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
ZECH 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
ZECH 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

And, when the time comes, there is an end to His Hope that those on the earth will choose good over evil:

REV 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

mikebr
Jan 18th 2009, 01:55 AM
But, God has imposed limits to how long He will wait, and how many can be saved, because of their belief.

Only one third of believers will be saved:

ZECH 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
ZECH 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
ZECH 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

And, when the time comes, there is an end to His Hope that those on the earth will choose good over evil:

REV 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


Wow. I thought I had heard everything.:lol:

timmyb
Jan 18th 2009, 01:56 AM
But, God has imposed limits to how long He will wait, and how many can be saved, because of their belief.

Only one third of believers will be saved:

ZECH 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
ZECH 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
ZECH 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

And, when the time comes, there is an end to His Hope that those on the earth will choose good over evil:

REV 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

that Zechariah 13 prophecy isn't a refrence to the church... it's for Israel... as to the end times... Zechariah was speaking to the Jewish people in Israel, not to the church

dan
Jan 18th 2009, 02:35 AM
that Zechariah 13 prophecy isn't a refrence to the church... it's for Israel... as to the end times... Zechariah was speaking to the Jewish people in Israel, not to the church

It is a reference to all believers. Remember the falling away? This is an OT reference to it.

timmyb
Jan 18th 2009, 02:52 PM
It is a reference to all believers. Remember the falling away? This is an OT reference to it.

I totally disagree... the prophecies in the OT have nothing to do with the church... Look at the word given at the time and who it was given to...

yes there is a falling away... but Zechariah 13:8 is not prophesying that... it's prophesying Jacob's Trouble in the End Times...

dan
Jan 19th 2009, 06:15 AM
I totally disagree... the prophecies in the OT have nothing to do with the church... Look at the word given at the time and who it was given to...

yes there is a falling away... but Zechariah 13:8 is not prophesying that... it's prophesying Jacob's Trouble in the End Times...

...Would you say that? Back it up with scripture.:D

The Slaughter is predicted in several verses and this is just another one. Also, God says, clearly, that He tells of the end from the beginning:

IS 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: