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Petey
Jan 16th 2009, 01:42 PM
In Joshua, the Israelites lead an attack on Ai, and God says that the Israelites must not take plunder for themselves. One of the Israelites disobeys this guideline. However, he comes forward with repentance:

"19 Then Joshua said to Achan, "My son, give glory to the LORD, [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5996d)] the God of Israel, and give him the praise. [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5996e)] Tell me what you have done; do not hide it from me." 20 Achan replied, "It is true! I have sinned against the LORD, the God of Israel. This is what I have done: 21 When I saw in the plunder a beautiful robe from Babylonia, [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998f)] two hundred shekels [g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998g)] of silver and a wedge of gold weighing fifty shekels, [h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998h)] I coveted them and took them. They are hidden in the ground inside my tent, with the silver underneath."


This is of no importance, however:


"24 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today." 25
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them."

Why would would such incredible cruelty be shown? The man comes to repentence, and that is of no consequence. Not only is he brutally stoned to death by a mob, but his whole family, who have done nothing, are stoned to death also. Is this degree of harshness necessary to show a lesson? Could they have not been banished from Israel?

Soon after this, the Israelites destroy the whole city of Ai, striking down all who are in it- men, women, and children. Where is the chance for repentence? These verses trouble me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ixthus
Jan 16th 2009, 02:03 PM
Repentance wasn't the the Dispensation (Latin for "Law of the House") of the time. In Greek the word is oikonomos which we get the word (economy from).

I'm still trying to figure out how to get a table on here so I could give you a visual

Friend of I AM
Jan 16th 2009, 04:19 PM
In Joshua, the Israelites lead an attack on Ai, and God says that the Israelites must not take plunder for themselves. One of the Israelites disobeys this guideline. However, he comes forward with repentance:

"19 Then Joshua said to Achan, "My son, give glory to the LORD, [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5996d)] the God of Israel, and give him the praise. [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5996e)] Tell me what you have done; do not hide it from me." 20 Achan replied, "It is true! I have sinned against the LORD, the God of Israel. This is what I have done: 21 When I saw in the plunder a beautiful robe from Babylonia, [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998f)] two hundred shekels [g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998g)] of silver and a wedge of gold weighing fifty shekels, [h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998h)] I coveted them and took them. They are hidden in the ground inside my tent, with the silver underneath."


This is of no importance, however:


"24 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today." 25
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them."

Why would would such incredible cruelty be shown? The man comes to repentence, and that is of no consequence. Not only is he brutally stoned to death by a mob, but his whole family, who have done nothing, are stoned to death also. Is this degree of harshness necessary to show a lesson? Could they have not been banished from Israel?

Soon after this, the Israelites destroy the whole city of Ai, striking down all who are in it- men, women, and children. Where is the chance for repentence? These verses trouble me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

There was repentance and mercy, but the Israelites were held to a higher standard during this particular period of time being that they were God's chosen people...and since they were under the Mosaic law until the fulfillment of the promise of Christ.

SeattleSun
Jan 16th 2009, 06:16 PM
Let's go back to the beginning of Joshua when God commissioned him:

Josh. 1:6 "Be strong and courageous, for you shall give this people possession of the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

7"Only be strong and very courageous; be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go. 8"This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.

And when Joshua assumes command and Israel responds:

16They answered Joshua, saying, "All that you have commanded us we will do, and wherever you send us we will go.

17"Just as we obeyed Moses in all things, so we will obey you; only may the LORD your God be with you as He was with Moses. 18"Anyone who rebels against your command and does not obey your words in all that you command him, shall be put to death; only be strong and courageous."

Which refers to:

Deut 7:26"You shall not bring an abomination into your house, and like it come under the ban; you shall utterly detest it and you shall utterly abhor it, for it is something banned.

Which goes to:

Lev. 27:28'Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD.
29'No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

Achan disobeyed God. He stole from God. His sin infected Israel. The penalty was paid as commanded by the just and righteous Lord because Achan's sin was imputed onto Israel.

RogerW
Jan 16th 2009, 07:19 PM
Let's go back to the beginning of Joshua when God commissioned him:

Josh. 1:6 "Be strong and courageous, for you shall give this people possession of the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

7"Only be strong and very courageous; be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go. 8"This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.

And when Joshua assumes command and Israel responds:

16They answered Joshua, saying, "All that you have commanded us we will do, and wherever you send us we will go.

17"Just as we obeyed Moses in all things, so we will obey you; only may the LORD your God be with you as He was with Moses. 18"Anyone who rebels against your command and does not obey your words in all that you command him, shall be put to death; only be strong and courageous."

Which refers to:

Deut 7:26"You shall not bring an abomination into your house, and like it come under the ban; you shall utterly detest it and you shall utterly abhor it, for it is something banned.

Which goes to:

Lev. 27:28'Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD.
29'No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

Achan disobeyed God. He stole from God. His sin infected Israel. The penalty was paid as commanded by the just and righteous Lord because Achan's sin was imputed onto Israel.

To give credence to what Seattle Sun has written consider how the anger of the Lord was kindled against the children of Israel because of one man's transgression.

Jos 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.

There are consquences for sin. It was not only Achan and his family who died for this one man's sin. Ai was little and should have been easily defeated, but the Lord was against them because of the transgression of the covenant. If Joshua had not obeyed the Lord and utterly destroyed Achan and all he possessed, then the Lord would no longer be with them, assuring even more of the children of Israel would be killed.

Jos 7:2 And Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is beside Bethaven, on the east side of Bethel, and spake unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai.
Jos 7:3 And they returned to Joshua, and said unto him, Let not all the people go up; but let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai; and make not all the people to labour thither; for they are but few.
Jos 7:4 So there went up thither of the people about three thousand men: and they fled before the men of Ai.
Jos 7:5 And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water

Jos 7:11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
Jos 7:12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
Jos 7:13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
Jos 7:14 In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the LORD taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the LORD shall take shall come by households; and the household which the LORD shall take shall come man by man.
Jos 7:15 And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.

Petey
Jan 17th 2009, 01:12 PM
Though harsh, I could see why such a punishment was necessary for Achan. Why the rest of his family though? They are completely innocent.

timmyb
Jan 17th 2009, 02:45 PM
In Joshua, the Israelites lead an attack on Ai, and God says that the Israelites must not take plunder for themselves. One of the Israelites disobeys this guideline. However, he comes forward with repentance:

"19 Then Joshua said to Achan, "My son, give glory to the LORD, [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5996d)] the God of Israel, and give him the praise. [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5996e)] Tell me what you have done; do not hide it from me." 20 Achan replied, "It is true! I have sinned against the LORD, the God of Israel. This is what I have done: 21 When I saw in the plunder a beautiful robe from Babylonia, [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998f)] two hundred shekels [g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998g)] of silver and a wedge of gold weighing fifty shekels, [h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998h)] I coveted them and took them. They are hidden in the ground inside my tent, with the silver underneath."


This is of no importance, however:


"24 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today." 25
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them."

Why would would such incredible cruelty be shown? The man comes to repentence, and that is of no consequence. Not only is he brutally stoned to death by a mob, but his whole family, who have done nothing, are stoned to death also. Is this degree of harshness necessary to show a lesson? Could they have not been banished from Israel?

Soon after this, the Israelites destroy the whole city of Ai, striking down all who are in it- men, women, and children. Where is the chance for repentence? These verses trouble me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

my reasoning is that if we knew the severity of Achan's sin... maybe we would know the depths of his mercy behind this situation...

the only way you will really know his mercy is to search for his heart behind the scriptures...

9Marksfan
Jan 19th 2009, 10:38 AM
Though harsh, I could see why such a punishment was necessary for Achan. Why the rest of his family though? They are completely innocent.

Do we know that? They may well have been complicit - or aware of it and said nothing. Even if not, it all goes back to the strong concept of covenant in the family in the OT (and actually in the NT too) - Achan was the federal head of his family - if he was obedient, his family would be blessed - if he was disobedient, his family would also suffer the consequences.

As far as women and children being killed. God often ordered this - because his judgement on his people had to be total - our flesh is offended by this, but then God is far holier than we are and we really have no concept of how sinful sin and rebellion are - shall not the judge of all the earth do right?

rom826
Jan 19th 2009, 12:37 PM
In Joshua, the Israelites lead an attack on Ai, and God says that the Israelites must not take plunder for themselves. One of the Israelites disobeys this guideline. However, he comes forward with repentance:

"19 Then Joshua said to Achan, "My son, give glory to the LORD, [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5996d)] the God of Israel, and give him the praise. [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5996e)] Tell me what you have done; do not hide it from me." 20 Achan replied, "It is true! I have sinned against the LORD, the God of Israel. This is what I have done: 21 When I saw in the plunder a beautiful robe from Babylonia, [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998f)] two hundred shekels [g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998g)] of silver and a wedge of gold weighing fifty shekels, [h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+7-9#fen-NIV-5998h)] I coveted them and took them. They are hidden in the ground inside my tent, with the silver underneath."


This is of no importance, however:


"24 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today." 25
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them."

Why would would such incredible cruelty be shown? The man comes to repentence, and that is of no consequence. Not only is he brutally stoned to death by a mob, but his whole family, who have done nothing, are stoned to death also. Is this degree of harshness necessary to show a lesson? Could they have not been banished from Israel?

Soon after this, the Israelites destroy the whole city of Ai, striking down all who are in it- men, women, and children. Where is the chance for repentence? These verses trouble me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Did God command the Joshua and the children of Israel to stone them? I read the record and it looks to me that God did not command them to stone the guy and his family but that was their own doing.