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View Full Version : China: a look at two churches



shepherdsword
Jan 16th 2009, 10:58 PM
I don't know if anyone has opened a thread on the church in China. If they have it's been awhile.

I guess everyone has heard of the movement in China. You have probably been subjected to a mini sermonette by some over zealous brother who uses them as a litmus test for your walk. Even so,there are some stark differences between the hunger I see in them and in our casual indifference to our lack of true anointing. Our great prosperity and religious freedom have allowed the enemy to substitute a Spirit filled church of living stones that God corporately empowers and inhabits with a dead institutional organization that operates using the methods and programs of men. This isn't a bash on organized religion or the church in general but a simple and honest observation. We had a movement or something of that nature that occurred just to the north of my location last year. Despite the many problems with some of things that were going and and being said from the pulpit(or NOT being said) Christians flocked to it in droves. The compelling hunger for Jesus and a real demonstration of his glory overrode any theological concerns. The move died out,as all moves must do that do not encourage the saints to take up their cross,deny themselves and follow Jesus. The message of self denial (through the Holy Spirit) isn't a popular one. In China they are taught from the very beginning that following Jesus will cost them all and result in a trail of hardship and tears. However,they view the life that flows from such a death to self as a bargain. In America we want the bless me now God that grants us our every wish. We seem to judge God's love for us based on what he gives us in natural blessings and not what was done by him at calvary. I would like to post a video for you to watch and discuss.
The underground church movement in China:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYuCFIQ2M1w&feature=related

Oh yeah,the title is a look at TWO churches. Here is a video on the state sanctioned church:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NobN0HfmouU&feature=related

Maybe we can discuss the contrast between the two...and us.

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 16th 2009, 11:46 PM
I know of a Pastor who last year spent 6 weeks visiting the underground Church in China. Before he left them he said he would pray for them always and then asked if there was anything specific they wanted him to pray for. Their answer was...

"Please pray that our Church in China doesn't end up like your Church in the United States."

Sad but true in many, many respects.

HisLeast
Jan 17th 2009, 12:42 AM
Are all the churches in the US worthless and reprobate, or just the ones people talk about?

shepherdsword
Jan 17th 2009, 12:51 AM
Are all the churches in the US worthless and reprobate, or just the ones people talk about?

I am not qualified to answer that question. All I know is I don't see the hunger and attitude here that I see over there. I am sure if we examined them with our critical spirit that we label as discernment we could find fault with them as well. However, the real issue isn't what is right or wrong. It is what has life and what does not have life

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 02:11 AM
i must admit i am a bit excited about the economic downturn in America. It will be interesting to see how many of these "Name it and claim it, blab it and grab it, call it and haul it" type churches respond. For those who are true believers I pray that God will show Himself in a way that American have not seen Him, as a God who is worthy to be praised even when we have nothing. And for those who have believed false gospel, i pray that God would also become sufficient in and of Himself for them as well

HisLeast
Jan 17th 2009, 04:29 AM
I am not qualified to answer that question. All I know is I don't see the hunger and attitude here that I see over there. I am sure if we examined them with our critical spirit that we label as discernment we could find fault with them as well. However, the real issue isn't what is right or wrong. It is what has life and what does not have life

I just wish there was some way to delineate between the "christians" in the US who are "christian" because of vague social connection and the "christians" in the USA who really mean it. And the reason I wish this is because my church is a place where people are BUSTING THEIR BUTTS. If people aren't going to apologetics classes to make them better evangelizers, then they're involved in many of the ministries to the poor: soup kitchens, tutoring and peer mentoring at the worste housing projects in the nation. And if they aren't doing either of those, maybe they're members of the congregation funding the costs of sending missionaries into China, only to be told our church is worthless.

Its just funny to me how a church (and I know we're not the only one) can work so hard and hear nothing but how useless, reprobate, careless, and worthy of scorn every last Christian in America is.

It makes me lose hope. It makes me want to say "OK! OK OK OK OK... none of my efforts are useful, so whatever, forget it. I'll stop fueling the missions with my tithe. I'll stop looking constantly constanly looking for ways to be involved. I'll just stop and do what everyone is telling me I'm doing in the first place and be a christian couch potatoe. Because what does it matter? No matter what I do, the Western church is dead right? Its useless, right? I mean we're funding missionaries to go to China for them to tell us this right?"

Each time someone asks me the reason for the hope I have ... I have to fight against my first instinct to say "what hope?"

shepherdsword
Jan 17th 2009, 04:53 AM
I just wish there was some way to delineate between the "christians" in the US who are "christian" because of vague social connection and the "christians" in the USA who really mean it. And the reason I wish this is because my church is a place where people are BUSTING THEIR BUTTS. If people aren't going to apologetics classes to make them better evangelizers, then they're involved in many of the ministries to the poor: soup kitchens, tutoring and peer mentoring at the worste housing projects in the nation. And if they aren't doing either of those, maybe they're members of the congregation funding the costs of sending missionaries into China, only to be told our church is worthless.

Its just funny to me how a church (and I know we're not the only one) can work so hard and hear nothing but how useless, reprobate, careless, and worthy of scorn every last Christian in America is.

It makes me lose hope. It makes me want to say "OK! OK OK OK OK... none of my efforts are useful, so whatever, forget it. I'll stop fueling the missions with my tithe. I'll stop looking constantly constanly looking for ways to be involved. I'll just stop and do what everyone is telling me I'm doing in the first place and be a christian couch potatoe. Because what does it matter? No matter what I do, the Western church is dead right? Its useless, right? I mean we're funding missionaries to go to China for them to tell us this right?"

Each time someone asks me the reason for the hope I have ... I have to fight against my first instinct to say "what hope?"

I hear your heart. My church is much the same way. In fact I'm much the same way. I guess the question I have is if there are so many dedicated people busting humps and giving til it hurts WHY is our nation sliding down hill? Why is abortion and homosexuality running rampant while our verbal objections,however intense, result in no more fruit bearing than other's casual indifference? Why is it that when you turn on christian TV you hardly hear a sermon on repentance or taking up your cross? All you seem to hear is the latest method on how to be a successful member of God's little bless me club. Anyone with a real burden for people or the state of the body of Christ is labeled a troublemaker with a negative attitude. It's because we have built a commerical enterprise using the gospel as our product. We have a method to solve every problem but we just need more money and labor from you to make the vision happen! Just don't ask us if it's God's will because we will answer "Of COURSE IT IS" just sign the check. Peter told the cripple "gold and silver have I none" but he manifested the power of Jesus to heal. We have all the gold and silver on the planet but almost NO ONE gets healed. If they do by God's grace then we rush them to the podium and they become our latest marketing tactic to keep the whole thing going. When Jesus healed he told them "see you tell no man" but we say "make sure you tell everyone that you got healed at MY church. We need to be broken. We need to start weeping between the porch and the alter for our church and our nation. We need to take up our cross and follow Jesus. Maybe then he will reveal to us if all this activity we do in his name is really rooted in his will. If we don't we will not hear "well done my good and faithful servant" we will hear "depart from me you worker of iniquity I never KNEW you" I tell you this in fear. I do not want to hear that.

HisLeast
Jan 17th 2009, 05:03 AM
I hear your heart. My church is much the same way. In fact I'm much the same way. I guess the question I have is if there are so many dedicated people busting humps and giving til it hurts WHY is our nation sliding down hill? Why is abortion and homosexuality running rampant while our verbal objections,however intense, result in no more fruit bearing than other's casual indifference?

Well, we know where the world is headed right? Lord help the last generation of the church if it has the same spectators who judge the USA. One would think that the ineffectiveness of ministry is entirely the fault of Christians, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the hearts of those hearing the message.


All you seem to hear is the latest method on how to be a successful member of God's little bless me club. Anyone with a real burden for people or the state of the body of Christ is labeled a troublemaker with a negative attitude. It's because we have built a commerical enterprise using the gospel as our product. We have a method to solve every problem but we just need more money and labor from you to make the vision happen! Just don't ask us if it's God's will because we will answer "Of COURSE IT IS" just sign the check. Peter told the cripple "gold and silver have I none" but he manifested the power of Jesus to heal. We have all the gold and silver on the planet but almost NO ONE gets healed. If they do by God's grace then we rush them to the podium and they become our latest marketing tactic to keep the whole thing going. When Jesus healed he told them "see you tell no man" but we say "make sure you tell everyone that you got healed at MY church. We need to be broken. We need to start weeping between the porch and the alter for our church and our nation. We need to take up our cross and follow Jesus. Maybe then he will reveal to us if all this activity we do in his name is really rooted in his will. If we don't we will not hear "well done my good and faithful servant" we will hear "depart from me you worker of iniquity I never KNEW you" I tell you this in fear. I do not want to hear that.

Yeah... I get it. There's just SO much more to the church than the mass marketing. My dad gets no less than 3 monthly publications from Christian groups with practically zero funding just going into warzone neighbourhoods in the US and Canada and ministering. But you never hear about those churches from the critics? Why? Because it takes away from their brand message of the critics: That being that the north American church is dead. The north American Christian is useless, and that any individual's efforts to the contrary is naught but the steaming refuse of bacteria.

shepherdsword
Jan 17th 2009, 05:14 AM
Well, we know where the world is headed right? Lord help the last generation of the church if it has the same spectators who judge the USA. One would think that the ineffectiveness of ministry is entirely the fault of Christians, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the hearts of those hearing the message.

Maybe it's because they can't hear the message over the noise of what we are?




Yeah... I get it. There's just SO much more to the church than the mass marketing. My dad gets no less than 3 monthly publications from Christian groups with practically zero funding just going into warzone neighbourhoods in the US and Canada and ministering. But you never hear about those churches from the critics? Why? Because it takes away from their brand message of the critics: That being that the north American church is dead. The north American Christian is useless, and that any individual's efforts to the contrary is naught but the steaming refuse of bacteria.When a doctor operates on a body he doesn't focus on the healthy tissue. He is focusing on the source of the problem that will eventually kill the entire person if it's not dealt with. My comments were in no way directed at you personally or at your dad. My apology is that came across other wise.

HisLeast
Jan 17th 2009, 04:13 PM
Maybe it's because they can't hear the message over the noise of what we are?
Could it also be that their hearts are hardened?


When a doctor operates on a body he doesn't focus on the healthy tissue. He is focusing on the source of the problem that will eventually kill the entire person if it's not dealt with. My comments were in no way directed at you personally or at your dad. My apology is that came across other wise.
My friend, I know you aren't accusing.