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reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 01:11 AM
This seems very amusing to me, something that a preacher just pointed out to me...

i didnt realize that God made this covenant while Abraham was asleep! lol

12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. 14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for yourself, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+15#f3) this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es and the Jebusites.”


No wonder we dont hear Abrahams response lol

mikebr
Jan 17th 2009, 03:18 AM
This seems very amusing to me, something that a preacher just pointed out to me...

i didnt realize that God made this covenant while Abraham was asleep! lol

12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. 14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for yourself, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+15#f3) this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es and the Jebusites.”


No wonder we dont hear Abrahams response lol

Further proof that God doesn't need us to do what He pleases.

Ixthus
Jan 17th 2009, 05:23 AM
Very Funny........

Sirus
Jan 17th 2009, 06:01 AM
cute!
but not true!

God had already made the covenant.

Gen 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

When?
Gen 17:3-8 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 04:55 PM
cute!
but not true!

God had already made the covenant.

Gen 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

When?
Gen 17:3-8 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.


yes but He passed through the slaughtered animals as a "signature" of the covenant while Abraham was asleep

Sirus
Jan 17th 2009, 05:28 PM
yes but He passed through the slaughtered animals as a "signature" of the covenant while Abraham was asleepWhere does it say He passed through?

Abraham asked for a sign. God gave it. It was not the covenant.
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 13:15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.
Gen 13:16 I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted.
Gen 13:17 Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you."


Also, it says
Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, ................

Which we already read before Abraham asked for a sign.
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great."
Gen 15:2 But Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, "Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir."
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: "This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir."
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 05:30 PM
Where does it say He passed through?

Abraham asked for a sign. God gave it. It was not the covenant.
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 13:15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.
Gen 13:16 I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted.
Gen 13:17 Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you."


Also, it says
Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, ................

Which we already read before Abraham asked for a sign.
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great."
Gen 15:2 But Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, "Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir."
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: "This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir."
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

ok ok you win;)

but the fact remains that what happened in that passage i posted happened while Abraham was asleep so i still find it amusing:P

Sirus
Jan 17th 2009, 05:34 PM
Well, I guess one could consider the comfort the sign gave Abraham as part of the process? In that sense, yes, interesting. Is that a better way to put it?

BroRog
Jan 17th 2009, 10:44 PM
Well, I guess one could consider the comfort the sign gave Abraham as part of the process? In that sense, yes, interesting. Is that a better way to put it?

I don't understand your point. God did pass between the cuttings without Abraham, which indicates that his covenant has no condition or contingency. Don't confuse the covenant of Genesis 15 with the Covenant of Genesis 17. These are two different covenants.

Genesis 15 is a covenant even though it doesn't actually use the word "covenant". The Hebrew word for "covenant" actually means "cuttings", which were present when Abraham cut the animals in half.

shepherdsword
Jan 18th 2009, 12:26 PM
I don't understand your point.


Join the club.


God did pass between the cuttings without Abraham, which indicates that his covenant has no condition or contingency. Don't confuse the covenant of Genesis 15 with the Covenant of Genesis 17. These are two different covenants.

Genesis 15 is a covenant even though it doesn't actually use the word "covenant". The Hebrew word for "covenant" actually means "cuttings", which were present when Abraham cut the animals in half.:amen:

Sirus
Jan 18th 2009, 07:02 PM
I don't understand your point. God did pass between the cuttings without Abraham, which indicates that his covenant has no condition or contingency.

Genesis 15 is a covenant even though it doesn't actually use the word "covenant". The Hebrew word for "covenant" actually means "cuttings", which were present when Abraham cut the animals in half.It does use the word covenant.
"Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram,..."

You don't understand my point because you think the covenant was established by blood. Abraham asked for a sign and God gave a sign. The animals are used in that sign. God is not "a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp". Those were symbols in the sign representing what is said in v13-16. It was not a covenant of blood at that time but a covenant of faith of God in Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
It was completely unconditional, and an oath from God. Abraham did not sacrifice his son.
Heb 6:13-18 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he swore by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Gen 22:16-18 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
The old covenant which came afterwards, needed the blood of bulls and goats, and the new covenant needed a better sacrifice of God's only Son. This time the only Son's blood would be shed, unlike with Abraham.

The covenant promises with Abraham is centered around the 'seed' of Abraham not 'seed's', but 'seed', which is Christ, who never knew sin. He didn't need a sacrifice for His sins. All men needed a sacrifice since the blood of animal's was just a type and shadow of the requirement of blood and not good enough to be permanent.
Heb 7:26-27 For such a high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.


You say
"God did pass between the cuttings without Abraham, which indicates that his covenant has no condition or contingency."
but if the sacrifice was necessary we have a conditional covenant. That is not the case. Abram asked for a sign.



Don't confuse the covenant of Genesis 15 with the Covenant of Genesis 17. These are two different covenants.Really? Two? If we considered each promise a covenant every time God said promise just how many covenants would we have? There's only one Abrahamic covenant with multiple promises.

BroRog
Jan 18th 2009, 08:08 PM
It does use the word covenant.
"Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram,..."

You don't understand my point because you think the covenant was established by blood.

Actually, I don't remember saying anything about blood.

My initial post in this thread was in response to your exclamation,


cute!
but not true!


Now, admittedly I might have misunderstood what you thought was untrue. The point of the OP, it seems to me, was the idea that God made a covenant with Abram while Abram remained motionless in a stupor, in the words of the OP -- asleep. Interpreted your statement as a rebuttal of the original premise.

I pointed out that, indeed, God had made a covenant with Abram in Genesis 15 and that Abram's inability to pass between the cuttings signaled God's intent to make this covenant unilateral and non-contingent.

Reformedct reiterated his observation again in his follow-up post to point out that indeed, God passed between the cuttings while Abram did not.

And though I was having trouble following your rebuttal exactly, it did appear as if you took issue with the original premise of the OP, which continues to baffle me even now.


Abraham asked for a sign and God gave a sign. The animals are used in that sign. God is not "a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp".

Did Abram ask for a sign? The way I read it, Abram was asking for something else.

Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" And Abram said, "Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir."

I underlined the phrases "I am childless", and "one born in my house is my heir" to demonstrate the Abram's thoughts and hopes were focused beyond his own lifetime. A man's wish for a child expresses his desire that some part of himself will last beyond death. A man, through a child, can extend his life and influence beyond his death as he trains and teaches his child, passing on his wisdom to the next generation. And a man would prefer this to be his own child as he sees the reflection of his own face in that of his son.

Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them " And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

At this point, God promised that indeed, Abram would have child from his own body. And not just this, but his progeny would extend to such a great degree that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars. At the word of the Lord, Abram believed God. He did not express the need for a confirmatory sign or promissory note. He immediately took God's word as his only guarantee.

And He said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it." He said, "O Lord GOD, how may I know that I will possess it?"

I suppose this might sound like a request for a sign. But in my view, Abram is asking for a title deed. Given evidence above that Abram takes God at his word without any necessity for a confirmatory sign, I believe Abram is asking for some formal way to take possession of the land. For this purpose, God makes a covenant with Abram.

Now a covenant is in effect AFTER a man dies. And this covenant is an expression of God's intent to fulfill the terms of this covenant after Abram dies. Again, Abram's thoughts and wishes extend past his own lifetime. I don't believe these are confirmatory signs of God's promises but a formal enactment of Abram's last will and testament.

My heart's Desire
Jan 18th 2009, 09:20 PM
God basicly ratified the covenant with Himself for Abraham. Just as God swore by Himself as there was No one greater to swear by. What was Abraham's part. He believed God and it was reckoned to he as righteousness.

My heart's Desire
Jan 18th 2009, 09:33 PM
The way I understand it this is the way covenants were made back then. Both parties would walk between the pieces to show their acceptance of the part of the covenant that both parties were agreeing to. It could not be changed.
Heb 6:13-18

Sirus
Jan 19th 2009, 05:28 AM
The way I understand it this is the way covenants were made back then. Both parties would walk between the pieces to show their acceptance of the part of the covenant that both parties were agreeing to. It could not be changed.
Heb 6:13-18I posted that passage above
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1949400&postcount=11
and it says nothing you just did.