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poochie
Jan 17th 2009, 04:59 AM
So what do you say it says on this issue? There are many interpretations and partly because of the variations that the debt passage in Romans is translated via the KJV/NIV. Some are convicted never to own a Credit Card, buy a house on credit, etc.. And others have different convictions.

So what are yours?

crossnote
Jan 17th 2009, 07:45 AM
So what do you say it says on this issue? There are many interpretations and partly because of the variations that the debt passage in Romans is translated via the KJV/NIV. Some are convicted never to own a Credit Card, buy a house on credit, etc.. And others have different convictions.

So what are yours?

The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
(Pro 22:7)

A man void of understanding striketh hands, and becometh surety in the presence of his friend.
(Pro 17:18)

chad
Jan 17th 2009, 08:12 AM
I like this teaching in Deuteronomy. It is part of OT tithing.

If I tithe nowdays will my debts be cancelled as under OT Tithing?

(Deu 15:1 NIV) At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts.

(Deu 15:2 NIV) This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the Lord's time for canceling debts has been proclaimed.

(Deu 15:3 NIV) You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your brother owes you.
(Deu 15:1 NIV) At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts.

(Deu 15:2 NIV) This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the Lord's time for canceling debts has been proclaimed.

(Deu 15:3 NIV) You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your brother owes you.




So what do you say it says on this issue? There are many interpretations and partly because of the variations that the debt passage in Romans is translated via the KJV/NIV. Some are convicted never to own a Credit Card, buy a house on credit, etc.. And others have different convictions.

So what are yours?

tango
Jan 17th 2009, 09:52 AM
So what do you say it says on this issue? There are many interpretations and partly because of the variations that the debt passage in Romans is translated via the KJV/NIV. Some are convicted never to own a Credit Card, buy a house on credit, etc.. And others have different convictions.

So what are yours?

I have no issue with credit cards on the basis I pay them off every month. Therefore although technically as a borrower I am a servant to the lender, should the lender require their money back at a moment's notice I would be able to comply and am not enslaved by the card.

What I do have an issue with is the use of credit to by things that are not necessary. I see so many people who buy things they don't really want with money they don't have and as a result are stuck in a job they don't like to pay the interest. It's truly remarkable talking to people who have no idea how interest really works and how much of their working life is spent paying interest.

When I took out my mortgage (I wasn't a Christian at the time) I made it my highest priority to repay it. So I did without a lot of modern luxuries in order to do that. Some neighbours of ours make less than I normally make and seem to be constantly taking loans for home improvements, a new car, a holiday and so on. But they are now stuck in jobs they care little for and are past the age they hoped to retire, yet still fighting to pay their mortgage. Like many others they are not physically chained to their desks at work, but they might as well be.

poochie
Jan 17th 2009, 01:58 PM
What would you say to someone in a different situation?

A friend at school working on his BA about 38 years old, recently had a major heart operation. Praise the Lord the Catholic hospital he was taken too was very generous and some donors made a great majority of his debt, but Allan got left with $6,000 that he cannot pay. School insurance is as low as it will go, and in some ways perhaps the new Socialist policies coming to the USA, may be better for students and those with low incomes in the poverty and working class categories.

Allan wants to work more, but his heart condition limits that, and for know the creditor will not be getting their money as Allan has no way to pay this debt. His parents wont/cant help him here and he attends a very small church.

This question is not just for you Tango but for anyone.



I have no issue with credit cards on the basis I pay them off every month. Therefore although technically as a borrower I am a servant to the lender, should the lender require their money back at a moment's notice I would be able to comply and am not enslaved by the card.

What I do have an issue with is the use of credit to by things that are not necessary. I see so many people who buy things they don't really want with money they don't have and as a result are stuck in a job they don't like to pay the interest. It's truly remarkable talking to people who have no idea how interest really works and how much of their working life is spent paying interest.

When I took out my mortgage (I wasn't a Christian at the time) I made it my highest priority to repay it. So I did without a lot of modern luxuries in order to do that. Some neighbours of ours make less than I normally make and seem to be constantly taking loans for home improvements, a new car, a holiday and so on. But they are now stuck in jobs they care little for and are past the age they hoped to retire, yet still fighting to pay their mortgage. Like many others they are not physically chained to their desks at work, but they might as well be.

tango
Jan 17th 2009, 03:34 PM
The thing is with any generalisation it's possible to find examples that don't fit neatly into the mould.

I'd say staying alive is a good reason to borrow - having life-saving heart surgery is a far cry from having an extra large SUV or a huge plasma TV.

Amos_with_goats
Jan 17th 2009, 03:50 PM
I believe that debt is bad in both a spiritual and a temporal sense. (as is so often the case).

Debt = slavery.

I have never owned a new car, I do not believe they are a wise investment and in a spiritual sense I believe that you are a slave not just to the person you borrow the money from... but to the very thing you buy with borrowed money.

If you consider the word 'worship' one definition is to 'assign worth to'. Is that new car "worth" the commitment of so much of your time spent working>?

Of course most people need a car in modern society... but used cars abound.

There is a certain foolishness (imho) that persists today that has been recently exposed. This idea that one should buy the biggest house you can afford, or that a family of 4 needs 3500' of living space. This foolsihness spawned very very poor financial products like interest only loans. What a terrible idea. I was counseling people not to do this when the market was hot and have since heard back that they wish they had listened.

Buying the house you NEED rather then the one your realtor / broker / loan agent is trying to talk you into is smart. Debt, in the porper context can be usefull. If you remember that debt = slavery and seek to get out of it as quickly as possible you will do well.

Other foolsihness that is commonly heard today is that you should not pay off a mortgage since the interest is tax deductable. This is amazingly wrongminded. The tax write off saves you a portion of the money you loose to the interest.

Even small efforts to pay against a mortage can net huge gains. If the average family either turned off or downgraded their cable TV they could knock as much as 10 years off of their mortgage.

Obviously this is a subject I feel strongly about. I will wait now for other replies before I rant all day long.. :D

By the way, great topic for discussion.

tango
Jan 17th 2009, 04:04 PM
One of the reasons I used spare cash to overpay my mortgage was the immediate return. Since 25 years worth of compound interest meant that every 1 I borrowed would cost me 3 to repay by the time the term was up I figured that, very roughly speaking, every 1 I overpaid would save me 3 and therefore I got a 200% return instantly.

Financial advisers said I should put the money into the stock market instead and hope for a better return over time, but to me a 200% instant return seemed like something that would take a lot of beating.

Amos_with_goats
Jan 17th 2009, 04:07 PM
Absolutely

Not to mention the freedom of being debt free! :pp:pp:pp




One of the reasons I used spare cash to overpay my mortgage was the immediate return. Since 25 years worth of compound interest meant that every 1 I borrowed would cost me 3 to repay by the time the term was up I figured that, very roughly speaking, every 1 I overpaid would save me 3 and therefore I got a 200% return instantly.

Financial advisers said I should put the money into the stock market instead and hope for a better return over time, but to me a 200% instant return seemed like something that would take a lot of beating.

JesusPhreak27
Jan 17th 2009, 04:54 PM
Guys trust me as someone who lives on the other side of the proverbial tracks on this issue (my ex wife and I put ourselves in a very poor financial position -- she went "upside down on three different vehicles, we massed THOUSANDS of dollars in CC debt and she opened a line of credit account IN MY NAME and took out the entire amount to pay off her part of the bills but leaving me with that bill as well) learning how to Biblically live with your finances has been hard to say the least.

Luckily God blessed me with my wife now and she was raised in a house that followed the Biblical model of finances. This year we will have her car payed off (my truck is already paid off 0-- but I will be in need of a new (for me) one next year)and we should have at least two of our CC paid off this year.... leaving us with only 4 bills (not including rent etc) to pay off. Now three of them are my mistakes from my first marriage and the other one a mistake from her life before me......

But she has taken away all my cards except the debit card and she has gotten us into a routine of putting away at least $100 /month (in a savings account) to build a nice little nest egg incase something happens. But she wont let me use the CC at all. That was my biggest vice. Earlier in life I looked at them as free money and boy Im paying for it now.

But we are slowly but surely digging our selves out from under all that because we no longer want to live that way as you can not serve two masters. Our goal is to eventually get to the point to where we cna actually be able to tithe 10% (right now we MAY tithe 1-3% -- Thats all we have available)

So my biggest bit of advice is that you stay away from CC's -- now I will say this....having one and using it like another poster said and paying off the balance each month will help raise your credit score. It alsos is nice to have in the event of an emergency (take my situation -- we live in North Dakota -- her family lives in California mine is in Ohio) this allows for us to be able to get back on a moments notice if there were to be a death or some sort of other emergeny that needed our presence.

If anything guys I hope you read what I have written and it keeps you from making the same mistakes.....

poochie
Jan 17th 2009, 06:21 PM
I agree but in my situation as a student I only use my Cards when necessary.

I had some dental work done this past summer and had to use it, and I had an emergency auto repair that needed to be done, and I used it then. Unfortunately as a student I do not make much ($11-12,000 a year) so as you can imagine I cant afford much.

But when I get out this May Lord willing I will find a decent job and start making some real money and start saving. But until then unfortunately I will have to use one.

The tragedy of my life is my earlier days when I leisurely spent and spent and spent and spent, and did not save. I had to have every techo gadget and software toy on the market and some years later 99% of that garbage is worth less than $100!

Spent some $600 on the card back in 2000 for a USED Handheld PC (retailing for $1000) at the time and a recent search on ebay saw this device selling for $9.99!


Guys trust me as someone who lives on the other side of the proverbial tracks on this issue (my ex wife and I put ourselves in a very poor financial position -- she went "upside down on three different vehicles, we massed THOUSANDS of dollars in CC debt and she opened a line of credit account IN MY NAME and took out the entire amount to pay off her part of the bills but leaving me with that bill as well) learning how to Biblically live with your finances has been hard to say the least.

Luckily God blessed me with my wife now and she was raised in a house that followed the Biblical model of finances. This year we will have her car payed off (my truck is already paid off 0-- but I will be in need of a new (for me) one next year)and we should have at least two of our CC paid off this year.... leaving us with only 4 bills (not including rent etc) to pay off. Now three of them are my mistakes from my first marriage and the other one a mistake from her life before me......

But she has taken away all my cards except the debit card and she has gotten us into a routine of putting away at least $100 /month (in a savings account) to build a nice little nest egg incase something happens. But she wont let me use the CC at all. That was my biggest vice. Earlier in life I looked at them as free money and boy Im paying for it now.

But we are slowly but surely digging our selves out from under all that because we no longer want to live that way as you can not serve two masters. Our goal is to eventually get to the point to where we cna actually be able to tithe 10% (right now we MAY tithe 1-3% -- Thats all we have available)

So my biggest bit of advice is that you stay away from CC's -- now I will say this....having one and using it like another poster said and paying off the balance each month will help raise your credit score. It alsos is nice to have in the event of an emergency (take my situation -- we live in North Dakota -- her family lives in California mine is in Ohio) this allows for us to be able to get back on a moments notice if there were to be a death or some sort of other emergeny that needed our presence.

If anything guys I hope you read what I have written and it keeps you from making the same mistakes.....

poochie
Jan 17th 2009, 06:25 PM
The thing is with any generalisation it's possible to find examples that don't fit neatly into the mould.

I'd say staying alive is a good reason to borrow - having life-saving heart surgery is a far cry from having an extra large SUV or a huge plasma TV.

I agree. Unfortunately Allan is stuck with a debt he cannot pay. But under the circumstances what else could he have done? Praise the Lord he only owe's $6,000 as the garbage student insurance covered nothing, and it was only some very generous donors that reduced the debt down to $6,000.

tango
Jan 17th 2009, 06:40 PM
The tragedy of my life is my earlier days when I leisurely spent and spent and spent and spent, and did not save. I had to have every techo gadget and software toy on the market and some years later 99% of that garbage is worth less than $100!

Spent some $600 on the card back in 2000 for a USED Handheld PC (retailing for $1000) at the time and a recent search on ebay saw this device selling for $9.99!

Yup, and buying that stuff on credit means you've bought something that devalues while the amount you owe against it increases. Being on the other side of that deal certainly beats working for a living.

poochie
Jan 17th 2009, 11:36 PM
Yup, and buying that stuff on credit means you've bought something that devalues while the amount you owe against it increases. Being on the other side of that deal certainly beats working for a living.

Thats for sure! Never again buy a techo gadget on credit as its a waste!