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View Full Version : Are satan and the serpent in Genesis the same?



Gregg
Jan 17th 2009, 02:19 PM
I was surprised in another thread when it was alluded to that satan and the serpent found in Genesis 3: 1-15 and again 2 Corinthians 11:3 might not be one in the same. So I decided to post this and see what others thought.

Just for the record, I believe that they are one and the same.

Kahtar
Jan 17th 2009, 02:37 PM
Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Seems a pretty clear issue to me. Of course they are the same.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 17th 2009, 06:32 PM
From the Gospel accounts .. we learn and understand that 'spirit's, 'evil spirits', satan and his followers have the 'ability' to possess humans and 'animals'... they are 'spirits'.. they operate in the supernatural but are manifested in the natural thru the 'fruit' of people.. ie actions, intentions, etc... and not only there but the 'weather'.. as the prince of the power of the air.. satan and his followers have limited ability to create nasty weather...

In the NT it doucmented that evil spirits could 'speak' and 'possess' animals ..... the group of demons that were called 'legion'.. moved out of possesed man and went into the 'swine'.. They 'spoke' to Jesus thru the man (vessel) ( supernatural manifested in the natural) , you can look at that account in the Gospels......as Jesus confronted them... then they 'moved' out of the man at Jesus's command and into the swine because Jesus 'commanded' them.. and just as Satan 'entered Judas at the Last Supper.. so we 'know' spirits can and will possess humans.. I know because I was possessed by many of them prior to my conversion.. but Jesus 'set me free' Feb 3 1994... and just to clarify something.. when the devils would manifest themselves speaking..... Jesus didn't see a red horned devil all of a sudden appearing with a pitched fork and tail.. in some mystical cloud standing over people........ no that is Hollywood..
evils spirits that possess people will manifest themselves thru the 'vessel'.. the 'house' as Jesus calls our bodies...

Now back to the Garden... being satan is a 'evil spirit' and has a spiritual body .. not like flesh and bone... Look to the Book of Job.. .. is it possible that he entered the snake and possesed the snake and then spoke to Eve.. We see in the NT where 'evil spirits' will speak thru those people they possess.. could it not be the same for animals? Some say that prior to the fall 'animals' could speak.. I see no Biblical passagages to say so other than the Garden account of 'satan, the devil, speaking to Eve thru the body of a snake...

I believe satan is referrred to as the 'serpent'.. that old devil...
Jesus gave His disciple power and authority over 'serpents' and 'scorpions'... in the natural that would be animals.. but in the supernatural that means ''wicked evil spirits.. so you see Jesus referring to evil spirits as 'serpents'.. I believe and have been taught that satan has a spiritual body.. he is an evil spirit able to operate in the 'supernatural'.. and can manifest himself in the natural.. so can those 'evil spirits' that followed him... They can and do possess people.. and they can possess animals.. he is not some hideous creature nor is a red colored being with a pitch fork and tail and horns... Paul taught he appears as an angel of light.. his appearance if one of beauty.. this used to entice and draw in.. he is 'known' at the 'tempter'... he allures and tempts thru the flesh....

Its interesting the when Jesus came here in the flesh.. God manifest in the flesh..(flesh/bone without sin and God)... here He is and all of a sudden those evil spirits (supernatural) that operate in the supernatural and manfiesting in the natural were 'obeying' Him at His commands.. not only Him but His disciples.. in His Name... Jesus was demonstrating that Kingdom of Heaven was 'at hand'... even the 'devils' obey Him.. Satan wasnt casting out Satan but the Kingdom of Heaven was casting out satan.... the religous elite of his day so greatly erred when they said he casteth out devils by the prince of devils... He responded and said.. a kingdom divided will not stand... how can satan cast out satan? if satan casts out satan then his kingdom will fall.. but If He Jesus casts out satan by the finger of God..... then without a doubt and verily I say unto thee.. behold.. the Kingdom of Heaven is suddenly upon you... and its 'at hand'.. as for satan, the that old devil.. he is real and his end will be the Lake of Fire... for it was prepared for him and his angels...

Thanks for the thread and the dialogue... TBD

Elouise
Jan 17th 2009, 07:45 PM
Current Christian theological thinking is they may not be the same thing if you read the OT with Hebrew understanding rather than NT hindsight.

Gregg
Jan 18th 2009, 06:36 PM
Current Christian theological thinking is they may not be the same thing if you read the OT with Hebrew understanding rather than NT hindsight.

Where would I read about this? And if it is current "Christian theological thinking" why would I not include the NT in my thought process?

Mithrandir
Jan 19th 2009, 04:05 AM
Kahtar’s quote from Revelation 12:9 is the only documentation needed. Yes, they are the same. Here is some Old Testament documentation for those who require some "Hebrew understanding" as well:

Ezekiel 28:12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Ezekiel 28:13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.”

JordanW
Jan 19th 2009, 10:21 AM
Serpent is just another name for Satan, so yes, I believe that they are the same.

Elouise
Jan 19th 2009, 11:22 AM
Gregg

Genesis 3 1-15
In the Hebrew bible 'satan' is rarely used and when it is the literal translation is 'AN adversary'. The few descriptions we do have lack clarity but theologists do agree that the concept of 'satan' in the OT is limited and increadibly obscure. It remains contested. Most christians see the serpant as satan even though this is not actually used in the hebrew text. This is an ot reading being veiwed with 2000 years of NT eyes. If you speak with a hebrew in regards to 'satan' you will hear a very differant arguement as to what this is.

The serpant is compared to the created animal kingdom rather than as a primary spritiual entity. God clearly curses an actual animal [literal reading of text 3 14-15] A. Dillmann would argue that the unusual symbilogy and attributes of speech indicate that there may be more than a simple animal. Something Bonehoffer would concur with BUT whilst
some argue this was merely a fallen creature of some sort [Wakeman] what is not proved is that this is THE adversary as portrayed in the NT.

In 2 Corithians 11: 3 is an analogy used to teach to warn people to be ware of being deceived and given the huge pastoral problems that Paul was trying to wretsle in with the mess that the Corinth Church had become I am not surprised he used the language he did.

I suggest accessing The Journal for the Study of the Old Testament for further current thinking.

Elouise
Jan 19th 2009, 11:23 AM
Serpent is just another name for Satan, so yes, I believe that they are the same.
Not origionally, this is a modern usage. ;)

Kahtar
Jan 19th 2009, 03:14 PM
Not origionally, this is a modern usage. ;)


I suggest accessing The Journal for the Study of the Old Testament for further current thinking.



This is an ot reading being veiwed with 2000 years of NT eyes



if you read the OT with Hebrew understanding rather than NT hindsight.

These are certainly interesting statements, Elouise. On the one hand, you seemingly mock 'modern usage', and on the other support 'Current Christian theological thinking', and seem to promote the idea that using the New Testament to gain understanding of the Old Testament is a bad thing.
This tends to deny or discount the idea that the New Testament is the inspired Word of God, and makes it somehow inferior to either 'original Hebrew thinking' or 'modern theological thinking'.

Elouise
Jan 19th 2009, 04:18 PM
Well we are both allowed to have our own opnions based on the best of our theological understanding. :D

JOST is carried by seminaries and ministry training colleges the world over.

You have also made a assumption about my post rather than reading it in the context it was posted; a response to anothers query.

Kahtar
Jan 20th 2009, 04:13 AM
Well we are both allowed to have our own opnions based on the best of our theological understanding. :DCertainly true, not only of you and I, but these others you have posted to as well.


JOST is carried by seminaries and ministry training colleges the world over.Haven't read it. I'm sure it has some interesting stuff in it. However, the fact that seminaries and colleges use it doesn't go far in promoting it in my estimation. I see seminaries and colleges also promoting homosexuality in the pulpit and denying the sacrifice of Christ. Nor do I believe their use of this book would lend them any particular qualification. But, that is my opinion of course, and one I'm sure you disagree with. No problem.;)


You have also made a assumption about my post rather than reading it in the context it was posted; a response to anothers query.That may be. I have jumped to erroneous conclusions before. My appologies.
As for 'Hebrew understanding' to which you refer, I will agree that much can be gained by studying their understanding, and I view the understanding from a Hebrew perspective, especially in regard to feasts, idioms and so forth to be essential to understanding much of what is written in the New Testament.
You made the suggestion that if one were to speak to a Hebrew about Satan, he would provide a very different perspective. I would submit that if you spoke to him about Jesus Christ he would again provide a very different perspective. That same 'Hebrew perspective' missed, or ignored, the coming of haMashiach the first time around, and considered the world to be flat.
So in that regard, while I will certainly listen to the Hebrew perspective and consider it, and weight it, and check it against the Word of God, I will not just simply accept it as fact, until I have done those things and found it to be sound.
As for the serpent in the garden being a literal creature, I have no doubt. As for the serpent also being Satan I have no doubt, for God, Who IS the author of the entire Word, both testaments, declared him to be satan in the book of Revelation,which thus far you have not addressed.

David Taylor
Jan 20th 2009, 05:31 PM
Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Seems a pretty clear issue to me. Of course they are the same.


Another additional related scripture...

Isaiah 26:21 "For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. (prophesying of the 2nd Advent and the resurrection) In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine."

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 07:41 PM
Current Christian theological thinking is they may not be the same thing if you read the OT with Hebrew understanding rather than NT hindsight.

so you are saying that just because it wasnt fully revealed as Satan at that time that it never was Satan until we found out it was?

interpretations dont always equal truth. Truth is truth, and in the end, the one called Faithful and True will judge all interpretation

i love when people say: well thats your view, thats your opinoin, thats your interpretation, cuz in the back of my mind, i know that one day there will only be one interpretation reigning and ruling everyones reality, the interpretation according to the Trinity

Mithrandir
Jan 21st 2009, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Elouise
The serpant is compared to the created animal kingdom rather than as a primary spritiual entity. God clearly curses an actual animal [literal reading of text 3 14-15]


:hmm:

This is not actually the case if taken in the original Hebrew and Greek, so I can’t agree with you here. The word "beast" in Genesis 3:1 is chay, and this is properly translated as "a living being". Just as it would be incorrect to translate zoa "beasts" (as compared to the created animal kingdom) in Revelation 4, it would be equally incorrect to translate chay "beast" in the same context in Genesis 3. Both are simply defined as living being. The serpent is therefore spoken of as being "more subtle (wise) than any other living being which The Lord had made". This is actually a moot point anyway. Even if the word beast did mean a beast as compared to the animal kingdom (which it does not), it does not say that the serpent "WAS" a beast, but only that he was "more wise" than any other beast (living being) :saint:.

oneinthespirit
Feb 1st 2009, 03:45 AM
Hi friends,
The serpent originally wasn't Satan. the serpent was a Beast. Gen. 3
:1. Satan was and is a spirit. After Satan got thrown down from heaven, and the Creator created humans ( Adam and Eve) Satan was looking for a physical body to be able to beguile the woman, since there wasn't any other humans around at that time, Satan found the closest being to a human. Then he, the spirit (Satan) came into the serpent, tricked/seduced the woman, God then punished the serpent because of Satan. Therefore Satan is now known as the Old Serpent.