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VerticalReality
Jan 17th 2009, 06:27 PM
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

What are everyone's thoughts on these passages of Scripture? What sins are those that lead to death, and what sins are those that do not lead to death?

Vhayes
Jan 17th 2009, 06:51 PM
I think you will get a whole diverse set of answers here. My personal thought is the only unforgivable sin is the sin of telling Jesus you don't need Him - that you can make it in your own merits. That's blaspemy of the highest order in my mind.
V

VerticalReality
Jan 17th 2009, 10:38 PM
Another scripture to throw into the ring here . . .

James 1:14-15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

My feeling here is that if desire (a.k.a. lust) is implanted into a person's heart it will give birth to sin. That sin if it is not turned from (repentance) will dillude a person's conscience to the point where they will be given over to that sin. In other words, they will be given over to a debased mind that no longer has a desire to live righteously for the Lord. One who is dead is totally submitted to the spirit of this world and is led by him. This person will submit themselves to the devil and they will be a slave of sin.

We all know that to commit a sin is one thing, but to practice sin is another all together. Is the sin leading to death just a one that is practiced regularly rather than just one done in ignorance?

faithfulfriend
Jan 18th 2009, 02:44 AM
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

What are everyone's thoughts on these passages of Scripture? What sins are those that lead to death, and what sins are those that do not lead to death?

Sin results in an immediate spiritual death when committed.

As far as the sins that are not unto death, those are due to an individuals personal knowledge and understanding:

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed [attributed, put on account] when there is no law.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Sin is not based on an absolute basis, but rather a relative basis.

VerticalReality
Jan 18th 2009, 04:29 AM
Sin results in an immediate spiritual death when committed.

Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Are you stating that anytime a Christian knowledgeably sins they die spiritually?

faithfulfriend
Jan 18th 2009, 04:59 AM
Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Are you stating that anytime a Christian knowledgeably sins they die spiritually?

Well to begin with, Christians don't sin. If an individual does commit sin, they are a sinner, not a Christian. Yes they can maintain a profession of Christianity, but their committed sin voids their Salvation.

So yes, I'm saying when an individual commits sin, they spiritually die. The Bible states this also:

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Notice the past tense "WERE" dead [spiritually] in trespasses and sins. You can be alive physically, but dead spiritually. Adam and Eve DIED spiritually in the Garden when they committed sin.

Col 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Dead in sins. This is obviously not physical death, but rather spiritual death. Sin produces spiritual death.

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

This woman was alive physically, but dead spiritually. She was dead while she lived. Again, sin produces spiritual death.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Can't get much more plain than this. The soul that sins, it will die spiritually.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The soul that sins, will die. Again, another scripture.

Ex 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Whoever sins is blotted out of the book of Life.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages [results] of sin is death. Not physical death, but spiritual death.

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Notice in the Garden of Eden that at the very point that Adam and Eve disobeyed, they would die. Obviously they lived very long lives, so it's so easy to see that this scripture is proving once again that sin results in a spiritual death. Adam and Eve died spiritually once they committed sin.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin when it is finished [committed] bringeth forth death. Again, spiritual death.

VerticalReality
Jan 18th 2009, 05:26 AM
Well to begin with, Christians don't sin. If an individual does commit sin, they are a sinner, not a Christian. Yes they can maintain a profession of Christianity, but their committed sin voids their Salvation.

So yes, I'm saying when an individual commits sin, they spiritually die. The Bible states this also:

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Notice the past tense "WERE" dead [spiritually] in trespasses and sins. You can be alive physically, but dead spiritually. Adam and Eve DIED spiritually in the Garden when they committed sin.

Col 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Dead in sins. This is obviously not physical death, but rather spiritual death. Sin produces spiritual death.

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

This woman was alive physically, but dead spiritually. She was dead while she lived. Again, sin produces spiritual death.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Can't get much more plain than this. The soul that sins, it will die spiritually.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The soul that sins, will die. Again, another scripture.

Ex 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Whoever sins is blotted out of the book of Life.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages [results] of sin is death. Not physical death, but spiritual death.

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Notice in the Garden of Eden that at the very point that Adam and Eve disobeyed, they would die. Obviously they lived very long lives, so it's so easy to see that this scripture is proving once again that sin results in a spiritual death. Adam and Eve died spiritually once they committed sin.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin when it is finished [committed] bringeth forth death. Again, spiritual death.

I can see that we are pretty far off doctrinally, and in all honesty your response will take this thread in a direction I'm not really wanting it to go. I don't really want this thread to turn into a "Christians can't or don't sin" type of thread. If Christians couldn't or wouldn't sin then there would be no need for about half of the New Testament because a good portion of the New Testament is directed towards instructing Christians to either repent of sin (Corinthians) or refrain from it. If it were impossible for a Christian to sin then there would be no need for the Word to give instruction on the issue.

But again, I'm not wanting this thread to head that direction. I'm interested in hearing from those who do believe that Christians can and do sin and what they believe is meant by a sin that leads to death versus sin that does not lead to death. However, if you would like to discuss the issue of whether or not Christians can or will sin then I encourage you to start a thread on that. I will take part as I find the time.

faithfulfriend
Jan 18th 2009, 05:53 AM
I can see that we are pretty far off doctrinally, and in all honesty your response will take this thread in a direction I'm not really wanting it to go.

It humors me to a point to see that it's automatically me who is off doctrinally. Christ told people the truth as well and they thought he was pretty insane himself, some accused him of even having devils.


I don't really want this thread to turn into a "Christians can't or don't sin" type of thread. I certainly understand and respect that, but at the same token I was simply answering the question you asked me, and provided the necessary scriptures to prove the statements I made. Whether or not you accept it is your own personal decision.


If Christians couldn't or wouldn't sin then there would be no need for about half of the New Testament because a good portion of the New Testament is directed towards instructing Christians to either repent of sin (Corinthians) or refrain from it. The whole point Christ came was to deliver man kind FROM sin completely. The NT is exactly about that, complete deliverance from sin. Romans 6, 8, and I John 3 come to mind....

If you can refrain from one sin, you can refrain from all of them. In order to commit sin, you must be tempted first. See James 1.

As for those in the Bible who did sin, of course they were commanded to repent. Don't you remember that repentance includes a FORSAKING of sin?

Pr 28:13 ¶ He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Forsaketh means to leave altogether. So just confessing sin doesn't deliver you from them unless you forsake them altogether, to the point that you will never [with the help of God] sin again.

In the OT, people kept committing sin, repenting, sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting, on and on and on. That is the whole point Christ came. He was sick of His children disobeying [sinning], and he wanted to provide complete deliverance from all sin. Bible says it wasn't possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. But Christ's blood can, and His Word declares that His blood cleanses us from all sin. Therefore if ALL sin is cleansed, there is none left over.


If it were impossible for a Christian to sin then there would be no need for the Word to give instruction on the issue.I never said it was impossible for somebody to commit sin. But if somebody is truly saved [a Christian] and they give into temptation and sin, then they die spiritually, which was proven above, and are no longer a Christian but rather a sinner. Also Christ himself said that he came NOT to call the righteous [saved] but the SINNERS to repentance. Obviously those who are righteous are not sinners, or else that scripture contradicts itself.


But again, I'm not wanting this thread to head that direction. I'm interested in hearing from those who do believe that Christians can and do sin and what they believe is meant by a sin that leads to death versus sin that does not lead to death. In other words you don't want to hear what I have to say. :lol:. No worries, no offense taken. You basically want to hear from others who believe similar to you do, rather than me who is "off doctrinally" according to you.


However, if you would like to discuss the issue of whether or not Christians can or will sin then I encourage you to start a thread on that. I will take part as I find the time.Probably a half dozen or so threads have already been started, so there's no point in starting another one.

The process usually goes like this: I differ from everyone else on this forum [except for 3 others who live without sin], therefore I'm completely outnumbered and the majority opinion on this forum (and in the world) is that you can't help but sin more or less everyday. Therefore everyone who believes that bands together against what I say, and I'm automatically discredited because there are more who believe the "sin every day" doctrine rather than "living holy." Then I spend the time and effort to get scripture upon scripture upon scripture to prove my points....and it's either ignored, or I get called names, or people just call me self-righteous [which I'm not].

So yes, there isn't a point in making another thread, but I do understand as to why you would state that. Continuing this conversation would certainly derail from the OP, which is never a good thing. But I also already answered your questions, but maybe you didn't like the answer....

VerticalReality
Jan 18th 2009, 06:08 AM
Actually, I did not say that it is you who is off doctrinally, although I do believe that you are . . .

I stated that we are off doctrinally, which by that I meant that I do not believe or teach the same doctrines as you have above. In other words, we do not agree on this particular issue, and this thread is not intended to go into why that is indeed the case.

Now, I'm not going to go into a point by point rebuttal of your two posts above because, quite frankly, that is not what this thread is for and I do not want to derail it.

However, again, if you would like to discuss this issue then by all means begin another thread on it and we can discuss it as I have time.

crystalbrite
Jan 18th 2009, 06:15 AM
Another scripture to throw into the ring here . . .

James 1:14-15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

My feeling here is that if desire (a.k.a. lust) is implanted into a person's heart it will give birth to sin. That sin if it is not turned from (repentance) will dillude a person's conscience to the point where they will be given over to that sin. In other words, they will be given over to a debased mind that no longer has a desire to live righteously for the Lord. One who is dead is totally submitted to the spirit of this world and is led by him. This person will submit themselves to the devil and they will be a slave of sin.

We all know that to commit a sin is one thing, but to practice sin is another all together. Is the sin leading to death just a one that is practiced regularly rather than just one done in ignorance?

I agree the Word says eventually God will turn you over to your evil mind if you don't turn away from sin. and that holds with what Vhayes said about the only unforgivable sin is rejection of Jesus. If a person continually keeps on repeating the same sin, then they have not truly repented and therefore they are rejecting Jesus. so, yes. Repeated sin without trying to turn away from it will certainly lead to ultimate destruction.