PDA

View Full Version : Once saved always saved?



Pages : [1] 2 3

nessa
Jan 18th 2009, 03:30 AM
Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?

Amos_with_goats
Jan 18th 2009, 03:48 AM
Ok, since it is early in the thread I will take a swing at it.

Salvation is not just a past event. It happened at the cross, it happens when we accept Christ, but it is not complete until the judgment.

Both the Greek and the Hebrew convey this idea. Our silly arguments would fall to the wayside if we were to consider the entirety of scripture rather then picking a few verses and pitting them against each other.

Scripture will not controdict its self.

shepherdsword
Jan 18th 2009, 03:52 AM
Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?

I think there are at least three active threads on this subject now. I think most people that are willing to discuss this have already weighed in on one of them.

Julian
Jan 18th 2009, 03:52 AM
Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?
Good question.

Here's a scripture:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are born again not of a seed that is corruptible or could fade away, but of an incorruptible seed. I don't picutre an incorruptible seed going away or being 'lost'.

Here's another:
Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom [Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

God seals us with the holy spirit upon our believing faith in Christ - our salvation. He doesn't mention a partial seal or a broken seal. And then he even says that it is the down-payment UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, instead of saying that he's going to lose you before that redemption.

Since scripture doesn't use the term 'once saved always saved' we must search the scriptures and see what they say along the topic. If God does a lasting work of salvation after we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ when we are sealed with the holy spirit, then loosing it is kinda out of the question. But if God doesn't make his work of salvation last even after we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ - then it seems kind of a half-hearted effort on God's ability to seal us with the holy spirit - and a less than lasting accomplishment of our Lord Jesus Christ's salvation that he did for us.

I believe that it shows a much more loving God and a God who is faithful to his word to seal us until the redemption if we lose not our salvation upon receiving it. It also shows a much more permanent accomplishment in the work of our Lord Jesus Christ in his sacrifice on the cross. It's like saying 'yeah I know you accomplished our salvation, but somehow it got lost along the way!'

Sirus
Jan 18th 2009, 03:54 AM
I agree Amos.


Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?Yes. There are many passages for and against OSAS, which makes it impossible to cling to one set of verses without ignoring the other set of verses. Salvation is by grace through faith alone. Really! Alone! Keep the faith to the end and you will be saved. :)

th1bill
Jan 18th 2009, 04:30 AM
... The problem with arguing this doctrine, taught in the scriptures, is the inability of so very many people to remember context, context and did I say context? The Bible, the very Word of God, does teach eternal salvation and if you can be saved and then lose it you never had eternal salvation. The big argument surfaces as soon as people forget that the Bible is one continuous context from Gen. 1:1 through the last Amen of Revelation. that being said, Jesus explained the entire hoorah in the parable of the sower and the seeds. When the seed for a large field is cast (thrown by hand) it lands all over the place, just as does the Gospel when it is preached. Some of the seed lands on good ground and receives the right amount of sunlight and water and grows rapidly and produces fruit. The seed that landed on a stone just lies there and never produces because it has no roots. Then there is the seed that confuses the issue. This seed takes root, springs from the ground rapidly but then just dies because it had not enough soil depth or sunshine or water. In the church today that is the person that makes a big splash, works like crazy, thinks he is doing great because he is so busy but he burns out and leaves. He never made contact with God through the Holy Spirit because he never sought after it and so he was never saved but he looked good.
... Jesus even told His desciples that He preached in parables so that the ones that were truely listening would know and the rest would just miss the message. What you ought to do, I'm assuming your not as mature a Christian as this old man is, is to watch carefully for what God is doing and when you see an old fox or an old woman if your a lass, then join them in the work. If you'll do just this you will grow closer and closer to God and all the nay sayers will never shake you because you'll learn to hear God.

TrustingFollower
Jan 18th 2009, 04:35 AM
I agree with both Amos and Sirus on this. We claim salvation now through faith in Jesus Christ, but that salvation is not completed until the judgment. We have the promise from God that we will be saved if we continue in faith so we can cling to that promise. We can't gain nor lose what we don't already have in hand, hence the reason the apostles all preached on preserving until the end in faith in Jesus Christ.

faithfulfriend
Jan 18th 2009, 06:14 AM
Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?

Well this has certainly been a hot topic lately, along with debate on alcohol.

OSAS is untrue, and here are the passages to show such:

I. Parables that show the possibility of falling from grace.
1. The sower and the seed (or the soil). Matthew 13:1-23; especially verses 20-21: Mt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Also Luke 8:4-15; especially verse 13: Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Note that Matthew has that they “endured” (were saved) for a time, then were offended. Luke has that many believed for a time, then fell away.

2. The vine and the branches (John 15:1-8). Note verse two: Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Branches that are in Christ (new creatures II Cor. 5:17) are “taken away” (cut off) if they do not bear fruit. Same thought in verse six: Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

3. The lost sheep (Matthew 18:12-14). This sheep was once with the shepherd (Christ) but strayed away from Christ, then was brought back. The argument that this sheep was still secure because it was still a sheep is invalid. In this parable the saved are represented by the sheep in the fold. The unsaved (lost) are represented by the sheep that is lost. Once it was saved, then lost.

4. The fruitless tree (Luke 13:6-9), teaches exactly the same truth as the fruitless branch of John 15.

5. The five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). These virgins had lights (were saved) but these lights went out. They were rejected.

II. Some did backslide.
1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ. One who does these things cannot be a Christian. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

III. Apostasy is shown to be possible.
1. Ezekiel 33:18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. This is a prophecy of the gospel dispensation.

2. Romans 11:20-21: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Christians can be cut off.

3. I Corinthians 8:11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? It is possible for a weak brother to PERISH through our uncharitable activities.

4. I Corinthians 9:27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. As great as Paul was, he knew he could still be lost.

5. I Corinthians 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. An admonition showing the possibility of apostacy.

6. Galatians 5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. People can “fall from grace.”

7. I Thessalonians 3:5: For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. If these failed under temptations, Paul’s labors in getting them saved would be wasted labor.

8. I Timothy 5:11-12: But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. Those who cast off their first faith are damned.

9. Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14:
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Admonitions showing the possibility of falling.

10. Hebrews 4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. We can fall just as the Israelites did.

11. Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. These passages very strongly show the possibility of final and complete apostasy, as well as backsliding. (As well as Hebrews 10:26-39)

12. Hebrews 12:15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; It is possible for one to fail (lack) the grace of God after having had it at one time.

13. James 5:19-20: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. People who have departed from the truth require a second conversion experience.

14. II Peter 1:10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: An admonition to avoid falling from grace.

15. II Peter 2:20-22: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. A strong statement showing how apostasy can come.

16. Revelation 3:14-16: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. God will not tolerate unwholesome conditions.

END PART I....PART II in next post.

faithfulfriend
Jan 18th 2009, 06:16 AM
PART II

IV. Saving faith and obedience are inseparably linked in the following texts.
1. Matthew 24:13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Must endure (be obedient) to the end to be saved.

2. Romans 1:5: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

3. Romans 2:6-11: Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. This passage repeatedly indicates that we will be judged by our deeds and failure to obey will bring swift retribution. Remember verse 11 says that God is no respecter of persons. He will not take one person to heaven and send another one to hell for the same act.

4. Romans 3:31: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. The idea that Christians can do as they please in regard to the demands of God is spiked by this text.

5. Romans 6:1-2: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Christians must be dead to sin. If one continues in sin, it is proof he is not a Christian.

6. Romans 6:12-16: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? The proof of being a Christian is in the life one lives. If he yields his members unto sin, it will produce death even if he did at one time believe on the Lord.

7. Romans 6:17-23: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Same thought as above. The wages of sin, even in one who once believed on the Lord, is death.

8. Romans 8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. If one who once had life, changes his life, changes his way of life and lives after the flesh, he shall die.

9. I Corinthians 6:9-10: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. If a believer should commit one of these sins, he would cease to be a believer and would lose his inheritance.

10. Galatians 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. If a so-called Christian sows to the flesh, he will reap corruption (death) according to this passage.

11. Hebrews 3:14-19: For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Only by maintaining faithful obedience to the end can we hope to be with Christ in eternity. Note verse 14.

12. Hebrews 4:2, 6, 11:
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
We can fail to enter in just as the Israelites failed to enter in though they were delivered from Egypt.

13. James 2:14-26: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. It is absurd to claim to have faith if one is living a life of sin at the same time. Such faith is dead and valueless. It will not stand the judgment test.

14. I John 3:6-10: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Christians do not sin. Those who are righteous do righteous deeds. We know sinners (unsaved people) by the fact that they sin. Such are of the devil. Note verse 10. Efforts to weaken these texts by the use of the Greek tenses is of no avail. In verse 8, “He that committeth sin is of the devil” is in the present tense. It is argued that this should read, He who habitually sins is of the devil. Now this is true as far as it goes. Certainly one who habitually sins is of the devil. The Greek present tense also has the significance of a process as well as a repeated action. Hence the full translation of this text would have to read, He who is in the process of sinning or who habitually sins is of the devil.

15. Revelation 21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. There will be a lot of church members in this group.

crystalbrite
Jan 18th 2009, 06:48 AM
Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?

Well, personally I believe, "Once saved, always saved". However, Jesus said there would be some that call Him "Lord", but He would tell His Father He does not know them. I think those are the people who claim to be Christian, they might even believe it because they were raised in church or whatever, but they never really accepted Jesus as their Savior. A lot of people give lip service to Jesus, but they never really pick up their cross and follow Him.

Jemand
Jan 18th 2009, 06:54 AM
Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?

No, there are not. There are a number of “proof texts” that have been put forth to prove that once a Christian is saved he cannot lose his salvation, but when each of these “proof texts” is read in the Greek New Testament we find that it is necessary to assume in them an anomalous use of the Greek tenses and moods (especially the Greek present tense, the Greek perfect tense, and the subjunctive mood) and an anomalous use of the vocabulary and phraseology of the first century church in order for them to teach such a thing.

That is not at all the case regarding the passages in the New Testament that teach that the Christians continued salvation is conditional upon his continued faith in Christ and his continued obedience to Christ. There are a number of these passages, including the following:

Matt. 13:18-23
Matt. 24:9-13
Mark 4:13-20
Luke 8:11-15
Rom. 11:16-22
1 Cor. 9:25-27
1 Cor. 10:1-11
Col. 1:21-23
2 Thess. 2:3
1 Tim. 1:18-20
1 Tim. 4:1
Heb. 3:12-15
Heb. 6:4-9
Heb. 10:26-31
2 Pet. 2:20-22
2 Pet. 3:17-18
Rev. 3:5
Rev. 22:19

crossnote
Jan 18th 2009, 06:58 AM
Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?

I haven't weighed in on this topic yet so here goes.

Often what is couched in this question is :"How far can I go and still be saved?".
So a good reply to your friend would be, "Why do you ask"? If they are truly trembling with fear of losing their salvation, then the Gospel promises need to be given for comfort and assurance.
On the other hand if the questioner seems to be playing theological gymnastics, or is known to be in sin or complacency, then stern warnings about falling away from Christ is in order.
All in all, I would say "If it is possible to lose the salvation one already has it would mean that they would have to lose Christ and the Holy Spirit. And this would only be thru a continual hardening of heart due to sin until they reach a point where they ultimately reject Jesus as their Savior. You tell me if that rejection is possible...I don't know.

shepherdsword
Jan 18th 2009, 12:20 PM
faithfulfriend posted just a few of the verses that prove tghis doctrice false. As jermand has pointed out even the verses they FOR their position in reality speaks against it when you consider two things:

1)As has been pointed out, the parsing of the verbs in Greek
2) The conditions set in the verse before it.

example one(parsing of the verb)

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


They use this verse and say "see ,the life is everlasting" What they fail to mention that the "believeth" has a durative aspect in the greek and it means that the "whosoever' is continuously believing

example two(conditions to the promise)

John 10:28-29
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Here we see that we are promised that we can never be plucked from the Father's hand...it looks like they got us. However, what does the verse before this say?

John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Now we see the conditions
1) They hear his voice
2)He knows them( or is intimate with them)
3)They follow him

However even with all of this I think it is crossnote that has hit it on the head.

Why are we asking the question? Is it to see how far we can go and still be saved?

JesusPhreak27
Jan 18th 2009, 01:05 PM
I dont have a lot of scripture to back this up like a lot of my brothers and sisters do for their belief on this.....but this is what I do know:

1. Jesus tells us that there is only ONE sin that He is unable to forgive and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Now what does that mean? To me it means -- not falling away, because falling away means you still believe but arent active in your walk any more --turning your back to God and renouncing Him. To me it seems pretty cut and dry..... If you believe in Jesus and what He did on the Cross then you will recieve salvation.

2. The Bible also states that salvation is given on faith not deeds. Yes James does state that faith with out works is dead but that is something different, that I will get to in a second. But to say that we must do certain things or that we can do something to LOSE our salvation then puts us in control of our own destiny and then doesnt that lessen the sacrifice Christ made on the cross?

3. Though James does say that faith without works is dead, that is NOT aclaim that we can lose our salvation. Paul talks about the different levels of heaven. So as believers we all pass the initial judgment. We all get into heaven because of Christ. Where works come in to play is at the second judgment. This judgment determines our placement in Heaven. This judgment is based off of what you did as a Christian while on earth. Did you use the gifts God blessed you with to the best of your ability or did you just sit on the proverbial sidelines?

Just my 2 cents though......

crystalbrite
Jan 18th 2009, 03:35 PM
I dont have a lot of scripture to back this up like a lot of my brothers and sisters do for their belief on this.....but this is what I do know:

1. Jesus tells us that there is only ONE sin that He is unable to forgive and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Now what does that mean? To me it means -- not falling away, because falling away means you still believe but arent active in your walk any more --turning your back to God and renouncing Him. To me it seems pretty cut and dry..... If you believe in Jesus and what He did on the Cross then you will recieve salvation.

2. The Bible also states that salvation is given on faith not deeds. Yes James does state that faith with out works is dead but that is something different, that I will get to in a second. But to say that we must do certain things or that we can do something to LOSE our salvation then puts us in control of our own destiny and then doesnt that lessen the sacrifice Christ made on the cross?

3. Though James does say that faith without works is dead, that is NOT aclaim that we can lose our salvation. Paul talks about the different levels of heaven. So as believers we all pass the initial judgment. We all get into heaven because of Christ. Where works come in to play is at the second judgment. This judgment determines our placement in Heaven. This judgment is based off of what you did as a Christian while on earth. Did you use the gifts God blessed you with to the best of your ability or did you just sit on the proverbial sidelines?

Just my 2 cents though......

I agree with you! Salvation is completed at the cross. The purpose of Jesus' sacrifice was so He would be judged in our stead, thus enabling our relationship with God be restored. The wrong concept that salvation is not complete until judgement is just so full of fear and hopelessness since none of us can perfectly tow the mark up until that time.

Butch5
Jan 18th 2009, 04:05 PM
I agree with you! Salvation is completed at the cross. The purpose of Jesus' sacrifice was so He would be judged in our stead, thus enabling our relationship with God be restored. The wrong concept that salvation is not complete until judgement is just so full of fear and hopelessness since none of us can perfectly tow the mark up until that time.

It's not a wrong concept, how do you explain Jesus many statements "shall be saved"? This means future.

Yukerboy
Jan 18th 2009, 06:17 PM
1. The sower and the seed (or the soil). Matthew 13:1-23; especially verses 20-21: Mt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Also Luke 8:4-15; especially verse 13: Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Note that Matthew has that they “endured” (were saved) for a time, then were offended. Luke has that many believed for a time, then fell away.


1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

They never belonged to us (the born again). Sure, they believed for a while, but only those who endure to the end are born again and are saved.


The vine and the branches (John 15:1-8). Note verse two: Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Branches that are in Christ (new creatures II Cor. 5:17) are “taken away” (cut off) if they do not bear fruit. Same thought in verse six: Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 7:17-19 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Every good tree (born again) bears good fruit. This is a result.
Every good tree (born again) is kept from being cut down and thrown into the fire.

John 15:4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

All those who remain in Christ (the born again) will bear fruit.

Romans 11:20 But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

They were broken off because of unbelief. Those who believe remain in Christ and produce good fruit. To be broken off is through unbelief.


3. The lost sheep (Matthew 18:12-14). This sheep was once with the shepherd (Christ) but strayed away from Christ, then was brought back. The argument that this sheep was still secure because it was still a sheep is invalid. In this parable the saved are represented by the sheep in the fold. The unsaved (lost) are represented by the sheep that is lost. Once it was saved, then lost.

1 Corinthians 1:8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ is the shephard here. Note that Christ did not say the sheep finds His way back, but, to make God's promise true in the above verse, the sheep didn't come back on his own. Christ went and brought him back.

Matthew 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

Note that this is God's will. Whatever God wills will be done. None of the sheep shall be lost.

John 10:4-5 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice.

Note that the sheep ALWAYS follow Christ. They NEVER follow a stranger.


4. The fruitless tree (Luke 13:6-9), teaches exactly the same truth as the fruitless branch of John 15.

Yes, it does!


5. The five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). These virgins had lights (were saved) but these lights went out. They were rejected.

Matthew 25:3-8 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'" Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

Obviously, the light is belief and not being born again. The foolish believed for a while (not being born again), but did not have any oil (the Holy Spirit) like the ones who endured. Thus, they fell away.

JesusPhreak27
Jan 18th 2009, 06:25 PM
Guys doesnt it seem as if we are taking the act of salvation (to those who believe in NOSAS -- works etc) out of Jesus' hands and putting it in our own?

By what you guys are saying its up to us whether we "keep" our salvation or not by how we act and what we do.

Where that could not be farther from the truth. Juesus died on the cross so that we could get away from those chains. Our sins were forgiven the minute we believed. It has nothing to do with who we are or what we do it has EVERYTHING to do with who He is and what He did.

reformedguy
Jan 18th 2009, 06:31 PM
faithfulfriend posted just a few of the verses that prove tghis doctrice false. As jermand has pointed out even the verses they FOR their position in reality speaks against it when you consider two things:

1)As has been pointed out, the parsing of the verbs in Greek
2) The conditions set in the verse before it.

example one(parsing of the verb)

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


They use this verse and say "see ,the life is everlasting" What they fail to mention that the "believeth" has a durative aspect in the greek and it means that the "whosoever' is continuously believing

example two(conditions to the promise)

John 10:28-29
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Here we see that we are promised that we can never be plucked from the Father's hand...it looks like they got us. However, what does the verse before this say?

John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Now we see the conditions
1) They hear his voice
2)He knows them( or is intimate with them)
3)They follow him

However even with all of this I think it is crossnote that has hit it on the head.

Why are we asking the question? Is it to see how far we can go and still be saved?


I think what needs to be proven is that when God adopts us into His family that He unadopts us at some point. Or if we are new creation in Christ, is it possible to become uncreated? Is the law written on our heart somehow erased? It says in Matthew 1:21 That Christs mission was to come and save His people from their sins. Did He or didnt He?

Yukerboy
Jan 18th 2009, 07:08 PM
1. Matthew 24:13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Must endure (be obedient) to the end to be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

They will endure to the end. Christ does that for everyone who is born again.


2. Romans 1:5: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him

The Holy Spirit is only given to those who are born again. The born again obey God. If they are not obedient, they were never given the Holy Spirit



3. Romans 2:6-11: Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. This passage repeatedly indicates that we will be judged by our deeds and failure to obey will bring swift retribution. Remember verse 11 says that God is no respecter of persons. He will not take one person to heaven and send another one to hell for the same act.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

All have sinned, therefore all must be condemned, but no! God has given eternal life to those who are born again. And that gift He has given He will never take away. They have eternal life forever.


4. Romans 3:31: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. The idea that Christians can do as they please in regard to the demands of God is spiked by this text.

What pleases a Christian? Sin? No, for the following Scripture promises that.

Romans 8:5-11 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

So those who are born again can do whatever they please, for their mind is controlled by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who is not born again does not have the Spirit of Christ and do not belong to Christ.


5. Romans 6:1-2: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Christians must be dead to sin. If one continues in sin, it is proof he is not a Christian.

Romans 7:16-17 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

Paul said he does do that which he doesn't want to do. What did Paul, whose mind is being controlled by the Holy Spirit, not want to do? Sin.

But Paul, understanding the following truth...

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

...knew that he cannot sin (not ought not, or should not, but CANNOT) so it was no longer Paul himself that does it, but it is sin living in him.


6. Romans 6:12-16: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? The proof of being a Christian is in the life one lives. If he yields his members unto sin, it will produce death even if he did at one time believe on the Lord.

Amen! One must persevere to the end. And one will if one is born again, for Christ makes Him endure to the end.


7. Romans 6:17-23: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Same thought as above. The wages of sin, even in one who once believed on the Lord, is death.

Not all who once believed in the Lord are born again. I think all can agree.


8. Romans 8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. If one who once had life, changes his life, changes his way of life and lives after the flesh, he shall die.

The gift of God is eternal life, and God's gifts are irrevocable.


9. I Corinthians 6:9-10: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. If a believer should commit one of these sins, he would cease to be a believer and would lose his inheritance.

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Those who are born again are MADE righteous, meaning they are no longer unrighteous. They will inherit the kingdom of God.


10. Galatians 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. If a so-called Christian sows to the flesh, he will reap corruption (death) according to this passage.

Can't argue that, a so-called Christian (one who never was born again). Agree wholeheartedly.


11. Hebrews 3:14-19: For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Only by maintaining faithful obedience to the end can we hope to be with Christ in eternity. Note verse 14.

The born again, as shown throughoout this post are made righteous, are controlled by the Spirit, and are made to endure to the end.



12. Hebrews 4:2, 6, 11:
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
We can fail to enter in just as the Israelites failed to enter in though they were delivered from Egypt.


Ah, not the bold above. It was because of unbelief. Those who are born again believe and will continue to do so.


13. James 2:14-26: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. It is absurd to claim to have faith if one is living a life of sin at the same time. Such faith is dead and valueless. It will not stand the judgment test.

True.

1 Thessalonians 1:3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Works is a direct result of faith, being produced by faith.


14. I John 3:6-10: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Christians do not sin. Those who are righteous do righteous deeds. We know sinners (unsaved people) by the fact that they sin. Such are of the devil. Note verse 10. Efforts to weaken these texts by the use of the Greek tenses is of no avail. In verse 8, “He that committeth sin is of the devil” is in the present tense. It is argued that this should read, He who habitually sins is of the devil. Now this is true as far as it goes. Certainly one who habitually sins is of the devil. The Greek present tense also has the significance of a process as well as a repeated action. Hence the full translation of this text would have to read, He who is in the process of sinning or who habitually sins is of the devil.

Amen, the born again do not sin.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

Facts from these Scriptures:

1. Sin is the transgression of the law. And...
2. The born again cannot sin. For..
2. The born again are led by the Spirit. So then...
3. The born again are made righteous. Which results in...
4. The born again are not under law. For...
5. The law was made for the unrighteous.


15. Revelation 21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. There will be a lot of church members in this group.

Agreed.

Yukerboy
Jan 18th 2009, 07:12 PM
Anyway, the above shows that OSAS is as untrue as NOSAS.

As someone here pointed out to me (Roger?) it truly is POTS (Perseverance of the Saints).

Those who believe for now are not granted eternal life.

Those who are given the gift of eternal life never lose it.

Those who persevere to the end are the ones that have been granted eternal life.

Yuke

TrustingFollower
Jan 18th 2009, 07:40 PM
Romans 11:20 But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

They were broken off because of unbelief. Those who believe remain in Christ and produce good fruit. To be broken off is through unbelief.


Now you have me wondering something. How could any of them not believe when they are God's chosen.

1 Chronicles 16

13 O seed of Israel His servant, Sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!

tt1106
Jan 18th 2009, 07:43 PM
Guys doesnt it seem as if we are taking the act of salvation (to those who believe in NOSAS -- works etc) out of Jesus' hands and putting it in our own?

By what you guys are saying its up to us whether we "keep" our salvation or not by how we act and what we do.

Where that could not be farther from the truth. Juesus died on the cross so that we could get away from those chains. Our sins were forgiven the minute we believed. It has nothing to do with who we are or what we do it has EVERYTHING to do with who He is and what He did.


Traditionally God saved the remnant. I believe that if you are truly saved, then you will go to Heaven. I believe the only indication of this is Christ in your life and your Christian walk.
When Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, he was modeling for us the path to salvation. He that believeth in me, is the Greek Pisteuo.
It is the response to the offer of Agape love and Grace.
We must continue in Christ. We must model Christs model to the world.
Christ is not talking about "just faith" he is asking for more than that.
Although it is nothing we can do on our own, it is our response to the offer of Grace that is important to our eternal soul. The gift is the Holy Spirit which leads us down the path of righteousness, if we honor his prompting and allow him to.

Yukerboy
Jan 18th 2009, 08:54 PM
Now you have me wondering something. How could any of them not believe when they are God's chosen.

1 Chronicles 16

13 O seed of Israel His servant, Sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!


Matthew 3:9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

John 8:37-47 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father." "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."
The Children of the Devil

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Romans 9:6-9 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son

Galatians 3:7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

His chosen ones were always those who came from promise, not from physical seed. As Paul says, it is not as though God's Word failed.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.


Those God chose will be saved and this was before Israel had even come to be.

crystalbrite
Jan 18th 2009, 09:17 PM
It's not a wrong concept, how do you explain Jesus many statements "shall be saved"? This means future.

The way I interpret "shall be saved" is that Jesus is indicating that being saved isthe result of accepting Him as Lord and Savior.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 18th 2009, 09:22 PM
Matt 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Matt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I believe with all my heart, that God so loved the world, He made Salvation so simple, that even a child could understand and receive it.

TrustingFollower
Jan 18th 2009, 10:18 PM
His chosen ones were always those who came from promise, not from physical seed. As Paul says, it is not as though God's Word failed.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Those God chose will be saved and this was before Israel had even come to be.
Great verse you chose here. I bolded in red the part that seems to be overlooked in the verse most often. God chose those whom believe in the Messiah, the promise God gave to Abraham. God's spirit calls and belief in the truth saves. Jesus is the way the truth and the light, the Messiah. It was the same yesterday as it is today and that is the elect are the people that believe, with their heart, in the messiah. So in other words, God chose the Messiah and our belief in the Messiah through the calling of God's spirit allows us to have salvation.

humbled
Jan 18th 2009, 10:48 PM
Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?What are we saved FROM?

The correct answer to this question will answer your original question.

Also a correct focus on the OBJECT of our salvation will answer this. For if it is the decision of the sinner, then yes the sinner can again decide to quit following ... however, if it is the action of the Savior, then what could negate the action of the Savior?

What saves you, and what are you saved from are the two questions that really matter regarding this issue.

JesusMySavior
Jan 18th 2009, 10:51 PM
It's never a matter of God rejecting the person; it is the person rejecting God. To "lose" something means you have misplaced it but possibly you are still looking for it (albeit "losing" something dictates the disregard for and unmindedness of it, therefore "losing" salvation may actually prove itself a worthy adjective). On the other hand, if you consciously "give it up" or "throw it away", you are purposefully taking what was of value to you and casting it aside, as if it were unimportant or of no value.

We sin, and the deceitfulness of sin hardens the heart. As the heart becomes hardened the voice of God does not penetrate through - not from a lack of power, but from an opposition of pride. Therefore without the conviction of the Holy Ghost we fail to do what God has us to do, and fall back into the world, therefore denying our Lord Jesus in both action and word.

Soon after the deceitfulness of sin hardens the heart and one falls back into sin, it is easy to complacently say that Jesus doesn't matter to you anymore, therefore you are making His sacrifice a void issue in your life. Soon after that you may DENY the Lord Himself, turning away from what once saved you, choosing rather to scoop loads of vomit down your throat, craving the unthinkable and cleansing yourself with excrement.

Just as there is one way to God, through the bridge of the cross on which our Lord was crucified; there is also a bridge to unbelief and that bridge is the deceitfulness of sin. Let us remain pure before the Lord and keep ourselves clean from unbelief and evil deeds.

Let our light shine before men so that they may see it and glorify the Father that is in heaven, that He may shine the glorious light of the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ onto them, so that they may be saved in the day of judgment.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 12:24 AM
It's not a wrong concept, how do you explain Jesus many statements "shall be saved"? This means future.

Does this mean future as well?

Matt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matt 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 12:30 AM
Guys doesnt it seem as if we are taking the act of salvation (to those who believe in NOSAS -- works etc) out of Jesus' hands and putting it in our own?

By what you guys are saying its up to us whether we "keep" our salvation or not by how we act and what we do.

Where that could not be farther from the truth. Juesus died on the cross so that we could get away from those chains. Our sins were forgiven the minute we believed. It has nothing to do with who we are or what we do it has EVERYTHING to do with who He is and what He did.

Salvation is completely of God, whether He puts conditions on it or not. If God decided that He wouldn't save anyone,it wouldn't matter what anyone did, they would not be saved. However, God has said He will saved people, He said you must be in continual belief, of the Gospel message and you must be obedient to the Gospel message.

Can you show me where Scripture teaches that a person is forgiven of their sins the moment they believe?

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 12:37 AM
I think what needs to be proven is that when God adopts us into His family that He unadopts us at some point. Or if we are new creation in Christ, is it possible to become uncreated? Is the law written on our heart somehow erased? It says in Matthew 1:21 That Christs mission was to come and save His people from their sins. Did He or didnt He?

The church is the bride of Christ, God divorced Israel because she was unfaithful, will He not divorce us if we are unfaithful?

Why does the law have to be erased? If you are told that stealing is a crime, does that mean that in order to steal you have to have that knowledge removed? No, you just disobey it. Just as the law written on our hearts, you can just disobey it, and many do.

Did He die for our sins or not? Yes he did, however, who sins did He die for? His sheep, who are His sheep? Those who know His voice and "follow" Him. If you stop following Him you are no longer one of His sheep.

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 12:45 AM
The way I interpret "shall be saved" is that Jesus is indicating that being saved isthe result of accepting Him as Lord and Savior.

No disrespect Crystal, but it doesn't matter how you or I interpret it. What matters is what it says, And "shall be saved" is in the future tense, and shall take place at the end. Jesus said He who endure to the end shall be saved. The Statement says that the salvation comes after the enduring to the end. So, until you or I have endured to the end we are not ultimately saved.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 12:49 AM
Salvation is completely of God, whether He puts conditions on it or not. If God decided that He wouldn't save anyone,it wouldn't matter what anyone did, they would not be saved. However, God has said He will saved people, He said you must be in continual belief, of the Gospel message and you must be obedient to the Gospel message.

Can you show me where Scripture teaches that a person is forgiven of their sins the moment they believe?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 12:49 AM
Does this mean future as well?

Matt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matt 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!


How does this relate to the issue?

TerriP
Jan 19th 2009, 12:53 AM
The church is the bride of Christ, God divorced Israel because she was unfaithful, will He not divorce us if we are unfaithful?

The Church is the body of Christ.

Excuse me, where does it say in Scripture that God divorced Israel?

With all due respect.

Terri P.

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 12:57 AM
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Where does this say sins are forgiven the moment one believes?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 01:01 AM
The church is the bride of Christ, God divorced Israel because she was unfaithful, will He not divorce us if we are unfaithful?

Why does the law have to be erased? If you are told that stealing is a crime, does that mean that in order to steal you have to have that knowledge removed? No, you just disobey it. Just as the law written on our hearts, you can just disobey it, and many do.

Did He die for our sins or not? Yes he did, however, who sins did He die for? His sheep, who are His sheep? Those who know His voice and "follow" Him. If you stop following Him you are no longer one of His sheep.

There is no 'IF's'

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

I am amazed how far some will go, to try and kill off some of His sheep.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

TerriP
Jan 19th 2009, 01:02 AM
OSAS [once saved, always saved] is untrue, and here are the passages to show such:

Thank you for such an excellent and thorough Bible study!

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 01:04 AM
How does this relate to the issue?

You said 'shall be' is future.

I asked the question, if they were also future by your understanding of 'shall be'

SO I will ak it again:

Matt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matt 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 01:06 AM
Where does this say sins are forgiven the moment one believes?

Then tell us when, if it is not when we first believe?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 01:14 AM
No disrespect Crystal, but it doesn't matter how you or I interpret it. What matters is what it says, And "shall be saved" is in the future tense, and shall take place at the end. Jesus said He who endure to the end shall be saved. The Statement says that the salvation comes after the enduring to the end. So, until you or I have endured to the end we are not ultimately saved.

Were does this speak of Salvation?

It is to be saved from the danger they face.

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 01:16 AM
The Church is the body of Christ.

Excuse me, where does it say in Scripture that God divorced Israel?

With all due respect.

Terri P.


OK, the church is the body of Christ, maybe not the bride, however, will God not divorce us for being unfaithful if He did so to Irsael?

Jeremiah 3:6-11 ( KJV ) 6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. 9And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. 10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD. 11And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 01:25 AM
You said 'shall be' is future.

I asked the question, if they were also future by your understanding of 'shall be'

SO I will ak it again:

Matt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matt 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Yes, it's future relative to the conditions, just as it was in the other post. When shall the body be full of light? After thine eye be single. In Christ's statement here, the condition must be met before the result is achieved. When the eye is single, the body will be full of light, not before. Just as in the other post "shall be saved" is the result which happens after the condition, which "he who endure to the end"

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 01:31 AM
Were does this speak of Salvation?

It is to be saved from the danger they face.

So, if they endure to the end of their life they will be saved from the danger they faced?

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 01:33 AM
Then tell us when, if it is not when we first believe?

This was a question to Jesusphreak, you chose to answer it and that is fine, you don't need to know what I believe to answer the question.

Yukerboy
Jan 19th 2009, 02:00 AM
Great verse you chose here. I bolded in red the part that seems to be overlooked in the verse most often. God chose those whom believe in the Messiah, the promise God gave to Abraham. God's spirit calls and belief in the truth saves. Jesus is the way the truth and the light, the Messiah. It was the same yesterday as it is today and that is the elect are the people that believe, with their heart, in the messiah. So in other words, God chose the Messiah and our belief in the Messiah through the calling of God's spirit allows us to have salvation.

I do not ignore it.

God chose the who - born again
God chose the when - before the beginning of creation
God chose the what - to be saved
God chose the how - through belief in the truth and the sanctifying work of the spirit.

Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

What was granted? To believe on Him.
Who granted to believe? God
Who was it granted to? Those who will be saved (Philippians 1:28)

What about people destined to be unbelievers. Were they not given the right to believe?

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

ProjectPeter
Jan 19th 2009, 04:04 AM
You guys having fun yet? :lol:

reformedct
Jan 19th 2009, 04:31 AM
i will say this as i always do:

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f7) for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified these he also glorified.

there is no such thing as a person that God justifies that He does not glorify.

If someone tells you different, they are saying that this verse is a lie. Plain and simple. It doesnt matter how many Scriptures someone throws at you, it doesnt matter how much they yell at you, it doesnt matter how much they want to argue, it doesnt matter if they type in big red font. If someone has an interpretation that those whom God justifies might not be glorified, THEY ARE A LIAR. The Bible itself says that those whom GOd justifies, these same ones He glorifies. It does not say, those whom He justified have the potential to be glorified. It says all who are justified will be glorified

Those whom He justified these(same ones that were justified) He also glorified.

Those whom God justifies He glorifies. there are no exceptions. Some will try to tell you that loving God is a condition of being justified, which is not the case, for it is not of ourselves that we have been saved. Even if love was a condition to be justified(which it isnt, but lets assume it was), once that person was justified by God, THEY WILL be glorified, or else this verse is a lie.

Have a blessed day, and if you have truly been justified, do not let the joy of Gods promise to glorify you be snatched by those who have flawed doctrine. NO matter what people say to you, remember in your mind, those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There are indeed many "conditions" such as perserverance, turning from sin, etc. But do not worry. There are many verses that promise that God will indeed complete His work in you unto the day of Christ. He will keep you. You are in the hands of Jesus and you are HIs responsibility. Its His job not to lose you, not yours. If you have truly been justified, God has given you a new heart and placed His fear in you, that you shall not turn away.

Later,
Reformedct:cool:

crystalbrite
Jan 19th 2009, 05:05 AM
You said 'shall be' is future.

I asked the question, if they were also future by your understanding of 'shall be'

SO I will ak it again:

Matt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matt 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

I think you just proved my point that "shall be" is correctly interpreted as "a result". Thank you! :)

TrustingFollower
Jan 19th 2009, 05:12 AM
i will say this as i always do:

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f7) for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified these he also glorified.

there is no such thing as a person that God justifies that He does not glorify.

If someone tells you different, they are saying that this verse is a lie. Plain and simple. It doesnt matter how many Scriptures someone throws at you, it doesnt matter how much they yell at you, it doesnt matter how much they want to argue, it doesnt matter if they type in big red font. If someone has an interpretation that those whom God justifies might not be glorified, THEY ARE A LIAR. The Bible itself says that those whom GOd justifies, these same ones He glorifies. It does not say, those whom He justified have the potential to be glorified. It says all who are justified will be glorified

Those whom He justified these(same ones that were justified) He also glorified.

Those whom God justifies He glorifies. there are no exceptions. Some will try to tell you that loving God is a condition of being justified, which is not the case, for it is not of ourselves that we have been saved. Even if love was a condition to be justified(which it isnt, but lets assume it was), once that person was justified by God, THEY WILL be glorified, or else this verse is a lie.

Have a blessed day, and if you have truly been justified, do not let the joy of Gods promise to glorify you be snatched by those who have flawed doctrine. NO matter what people say to you, remember in your mind, those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There are indeed many "conditions" such as perserverance, turning from sin, etc. But do not worry. There are many verses that promise that God will indeed complete His work in you unto the day of Christ. He will keep you. You are in the hands of Jesus and you are HIs responsibility. Its His job not to lose you, not yours. If you have truly been justified, God has given you a new heart and placed His fear in you, that you shall not turn away.

Later,
Reformedct:cool:
Question, how are you justified now.

Answer, by faith

Romans 5

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Remain in faith and we have hope in the glory of God.

JesusMySavior
Jan 19th 2009, 05:17 AM
i will say this as i always do:

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f7) for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified these he also glorified.

there is no such thing as a person that God justifies that He does not glorify.

If someone tells you different, they are saying that this verse is a lie. Plain and simple. It doesnt matter how many Scriptures someone throws at you, it doesnt matter how much they yell at you, it doesnt matter how much they want to argue, it doesnt matter if they type in big red font. If someone has an interpretation that those whom God justifies might not be glorified, THEY ARE A LIAR. The Bible itself says that those whom GOd justifies, these same ones He glorifies. It does not say, those whom He justified have the potential to be glorified. It says all who are justified will be glorified

Those whom He justified these(same ones that were justified) He also glorified.

Those whom God justifies He glorifies. there are no exceptions. Some will try to tell you that loving God is a condition of being justified, which is not the case, for it is not of ourselves that we have been saved. Even if love was a condition to be justified(which it isnt, but lets assume it was), once that person was justified by God, THEY WILL be glorified, or else this verse is a lie.

Have a blessed day, and if you have truly been justified, do not let the joy of Gods promise to glorify you be snatched by those who have flawed doctrine. NO matter what people say to you, remember in your mind, those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There are indeed many "conditions" such as perserverance, turning from sin, etc. But do not worry. There are many verses that promise that God will indeed complete His work in you unto the day of Christ. He will keep you. You are in the hands of Jesus and you are HIs responsibility. Its His job not to lose you, not yours. If you have truly been justified, God has given you a new heart and placed His fear in you, that you shall not turn away.

Later,
Reformedct:cool:


Great post, well said.:)

crystalbrite
Jan 19th 2009, 05:22 AM
i will say this as i always do:

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f7) for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified these he also glorified.

there is no such thing as a person that God justifies that He does not glorify.

If someone tells you different, they are saying that this verse is a lie. Plain and simple. It doesnt matter how many Scriptures someone throws at you, it doesnt matter how much they yell at you, it doesnt matter how much they want to argue, it doesnt matter if they type in big red font. If someone has an interpretation that those whom God justifies might not be glorified, THEY ARE A LIAR. The Bible itself says that those whom GOd justifies, these same ones He glorifies. It does not say, those whom He justified have the potential to be glorified. It says all who are justified will be glorified

Those whom He justified these(same ones that were justified) He also glorified.

Those whom God justifies He glorifies. there are no exceptions. Some will try to tell you that loving God is a condition of being justified, which is not the case, for it is not of ourselves that we have been saved. Even if love was a condition to be justified(which it isnt, but lets assume it was), once that person was justified by God, THEY WILL be glorified, or else this verse is a lie.

Have a blessed day, and if you have truly been justified, do not let the joy of Gods promise to glorify you be snatched by those who have flawed doctrine. NO matter what people say to you, remember in your mind, those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There are indeed many "conditions" such as perserverance, turning from sin, etc. But do not worry. There are many verses that promise that God will indeed complete His work in you unto the day of Christ. He will keep you. You are in the hands of Jesus and you are HIs responsibility. Its His job not to lose you, not yours. If you have truly been justified, God has given you a new heart and placed His fear in you, that you shall not turn away.

Later,
Reformedct:cool:

:amen: Thank you. It's the truth!

InSchoolStudy
Jan 19th 2009, 05:28 AM
Good question.

Here's a scripture:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are born again not of a seed that is corruptible or could fade away, but of an incorruptible seed. I don't picutre an incorruptible seed going away or being 'lost'.

Here's another:
Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom [Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

God seals us with the holy spirit upon our believing faith in Christ - our salvation. He doesn't mention a partial seal or a broken seal. And then he even says that it is the down-payment UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, instead of saying that he's going to lose you before that redemption.

Since scripture doesn't use the term 'once saved always saved' we must search the scriptures and see what they say along the topic. If God does a lasting work of salvation after we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ when we are sealed with the holy spirit, then loosing it is kinda out of the question. But if God doesn't make his work of salvation last even after we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ - then it seems kind of a half-hearted effort on God's ability to seal us with the holy spirit - and a less than lasting accomplishment of our Lord Jesus Christ's salvation that he did for us.

I believe that it shows a much more loving God and a God who is faithful to his word to seal us until the redemption if we lose not our salvation upon receiving it. It also shows a much more permanent accomplishment in the work of our Lord Jesus Christ in his sacrifice on the cross. It's like saying 'yeah I know you accomplished our salvation, but somehow it got lost along the way!'


To all the people who say OSAS is not true, did you read this guys points? this would make the Bible contradict itself and the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

See what I dont understand about the people who argue against OSAS is, if you were a true Christian, then God would work in you until the end.

Also accepting Christ and then losing your salvation because you; Deny that God is real? or because you; Just fall from God and you start falling in love with the world?

If OSAS wasn't true, which I believe it is, then the first one would make sense because you are denying God, but we aren't perfect, we will fall sometimes and will do things that we aren't supposed to, so 'Just fall from God and you start falling in love with the world' makes no sense at all as to why you would lose your salvation. Because I have fallen far from God and started falling in love with the world, but I have always come back and I am spiritually healthier than ever.

I read this after posting this



Originally Posted by reformedct http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1949890#post1949890)
i will say this as i always do:

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f7) for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified these he also glorified.

there is no such thing as a person that God justifies that He does not glorify.

If someone tells you different, they are saying that this verse is a lie. Plain and simple. It doesnt matter how many Scriptures someone throws at you, it doesnt matter how much they yell at you, it doesnt matter how much they want to argue, it doesnt matter if they type in big red font. If someone has an interpretation that those whom God justifies might not be glorified, THEY ARE A LIAR. The Bible itself says that those whom GOd justifies, these same ones He glorifies. It does not say, those whom He justified have the potential to be glorified. It says all who are justified will be glorified

Those whom He justified these(same ones that were justified) He also glorified.

Those whom God justifies He glorifies. there are no exceptions. Some will try to tell you that loving God is a condition of being justified, which is not the case, for it is not of ourselves that we have been saved. Even if love was a condition to be justified(which it isnt, but lets assume it was), once that person was justified by God, THEY WILL be glorified, or else this verse is a lie.

Have a blessed day, and if you have truly been justified, do not let the joy of Gods promise to glorify you be snatched by those who have flawed doctrine. NO matter what people say to you, remember in your mind, those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There are indeed many "conditions" such as perserverance, turning from sin, etc. But do not worry. There are many verses that promise that God will indeed complete His work in you unto the day of Christ. He will keep you. You are in the hands of Jesus and you are HIs responsibility. Its His job not to lose you, not yours. If you have truly been justified, God has given you a new heart and placed His fear in you, that you shall not turn away.

Later,
Reformedct:cool:

I am kind of a new Christian and didn't really understand this whole post but what do you mean by and those whom he justified these he also glorified. are you saying that neither OSAS or NOSAS are right?

*confused*

and why are my letters tilted to the right and look weird

crystalbrite
Jan 19th 2009, 05:42 AM
Question, how are you justified now.

Answer, by faith

Romans 5

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Remain in faith and we have hope in the glory of God.

My bible, Amplified version, reads Romans 5:2; through Him also we have [our] access (entrance, introduction) by faith into this grace (state of God's favor) in which we [firmly and safely] stand. And let us rejoice and exult in our hope of experiencing and enjoying the glory of God.

To me that sounds like Paul was simply telling them to look forward to being in the presence of God.

crystalbrite
Jan 19th 2009, 05:49 AM
To all the people who say OSAS is not true, did you read this guys points? this would make the Bible contradict itself and the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

See what I dont understand about the people who argue against OSAS is, if you were a true Christian, then God would work in you until the end.

Also accepting Christ and then losing your salvation because you; Deny that God is real? or because you; Just fall from God and you start falling in love with the world?

If OSAS wasn't true, which I believe it is, then the first one would make sense because you are denying God, but we aren't perfect, we will fall sometimes and will do things that we aren't supposed to, so 'Just fall from God and you start falling in love with the world' makes no sense at all as to why you would lose your salvation. Because I have fallen far from God and started falling in love with the world, but I have always come back and I am spiritually healthier than ever.

I read this after posting this



I am kind of a new Christian and didn't really understand this whole post but what do you mean by and those whom he justified these he also glorified. are you saying that neither OSAS or NOSAS are right?

*confused*

and why are my letters tilted to the right and look weird
[/i]

Jesus justified us with His sacrifice. God glorified us upon accepting Jesus as our Savior. Since we have been glorified already, obviously we are saved now and forever, not on judgement day as the NOSASer's are saying. Read the post again. It is really beautifully put and indesputable.

TrustingFollower
Jan 19th 2009, 05:58 AM
My bible, Amplified version, reads Romans 5:2; through Him also we have [our] access (entrance, introduction) by faith into this grace (state of God's favor) in which we [firmly and safely] stand. And let us rejoice and exult in our hope of experiencing and enjoying the glory of God.

To me that sounds like Paul was simply telling them to look forward to being in the presence of God.
Yes Paul is telling them to look forward to the glory. That glory is our salvation that is completed when we are resurrected.

Yukerboy
Jan 19th 2009, 06:11 AM
You guys having fun yet? :lol:

Jump on in, the water's fine. :rofl:

InSchoolStudy
Jan 19th 2009, 06:13 AM
Jesus justified us with His sacrifice. God glorified us upon accepting Jesus as our Savior. Since we have been glorified already, obviously we are saved now and forever, not on judgement day as the NOSASer's are saying. Read the post again. It is really beautifully put and indesputable.

OSAS threads are done, why is it here.

Who ever posted that just told you why you are once and always saved.

Yukerboy
Jan 19th 2009, 06:25 AM
i will say this as i always do:

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f7) for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified these he also glorified.

there is no such thing as a person that God justifies that He does not glorify.

If someone tells you different, they are saying that this verse is a lie. Plain and simple. It doesnt matter how many Scriptures someone throws at you, it doesnt matter how much they yell at you, it doesnt matter how much they want to argue, it doesnt matter if they type in big red font. If someone has an interpretation that those whom God justifies might not be glorified, THEY ARE A LIAR. The Bible itself says that those whom GOd justifies, these same ones He glorifies. It does not say, those whom He justified have the potential to be glorified. It says all who are justified will be glorified

Those whom He justified these(same ones that were justified) He also glorified.

Those whom God justifies He glorifies. there are no exceptions. Some will try to tell you that loving God is a condition of being justified, which is not the case, for it is not of ourselves that we have been saved. Even if love was a condition to be justified(which it isnt, but lets assume it was), once that person was justified by God, THEY WILL be glorified, or else this verse is a lie.

Have a blessed day, and if you have truly been justified, do not let the joy of Gods promise to glorify you be snatched by those who have flawed doctrine. NO matter what people say to you, remember in your mind, those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There are indeed many "conditions" such as perserverance, turning from sin, etc. But do not worry. There are many verses that promise that God will indeed complete His work in you unto the day of Christ. He will keep you. You are in the hands of Jesus and you are HIs responsibility. Its His job not to lose you, not yours. If you have truly been justified, God has given you a new heart and placed His fear in you, that you shall not turn away.

Later,
Reformedct:cool:

I've been quite hard on those of NOSAS doctrines. Now, it is your turn.

You say "There are indeed many "conditions" such as perserverance, turning from sin, etc. But do not worry."

I say...

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Of course worry. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Paul, who had was told by Christ Himself that he was a chosen instrument thought he could be a castaway.

Only those that persevere to the end are justified. There is no guarantee that those who believe they are saved will persevere to the end and therefore are justified.

This is why I say that there is no blessed assurance.

I believe I am saved. Paul believed he was saved. However, Paul and I both know that unless we endured to the end, we may not be saved.

Not one of us can be sure we are born again and the born again are the only ones that will be saved. Many will believe they are born again and find Christ saying "I never knew you".

Sure, the born again have eternal security, but that security comes only from enduring to the end, which no one alive on earth has done yet.

Sirus
Jan 19th 2009, 07:38 AM
Not one of us can be sure we are born again and the born again are the only ones that will be saved. Many will believe they are born again and find Christ saying "I never knew you".OK, I don't want to pass this one up.

So basically, we are either under the spell of the devil or possessed by the Spirit? I mean really..."Not one of us can be sure we are born again"???
Can you elaborate please?

Just because some may just think they are born again doesn't mean some that are don't know they are. Know what I'm sayin'?

Yukerboy
Jan 19th 2009, 07:49 AM
]OK, I don't want to pass this one up.[/COLOR]

So basically, we are either under the spell of the devil or possessed by the Spirit? I mean really..."Not one of us can be sure we are born again"???
Can you elaborate please?

Just because some may just think they are born again doesn't mean some that are don't know they are. Know what I'm sayin'?


Those who believe they are born again do not know they are born again. Many of them think they know they are born again (and some will actually be right), but until they have actually endured to the end, they cannot know.

I'm not saying they aren't born again, I'm just saying they might not be and need to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. They need to endure to the end to ensure they were born again.

If Paul couldn't say he was qualified beyond a shadow of a doubt, how can I?

Sirus
Jan 19th 2009, 08:08 AM
You said that already but the exception doesn't make the rule. Just because some are deceived doesn't mean all are. That's just plain common sense. You can't take that one verse and broad brush all professed believers with it.

Yukerboy
Jan 19th 2009, 08:34 AM
You said that already but the exception doesn't make the rule. Just because some are deceived doesn't mean all are. That's just plain common sense. You can't take that one verse and broad brush all professed believers with it.

Many of them think they know they are born again (and some will actually be right), but until they have actually endured to the end, they cannot know.

I'm saying that not all are deceived. Some believe they are born again and are born again. However, there is no litmus test except for that of enduring to the end. Only then can one be sure.

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 01:06 PM
Well my friend said that once saved always saved is the truth. That once your a christian you cant lose your salvation. Is there any scriptures in the bible on this?

Jesus said that in order to be saved you must endure to the end.

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mk 13:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Jesus also said that not all will endure to the end.

Mk 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 19th 2009, 01:39 PM
The term OSAS and NOSAS are simply identifying labels that man has made up to try and sum up a persons belief in a phrase.

Take for example myself. NOSAS. But then not really because I do believe in eternal security for those saved. Thing is... while we are still here in the nasty now and now, we are people saved by faith. We aren't yet saved in reality and that time comes when we are no longer of this world and we have in fact finished the race; stood firm until the end; endured to the end; persevered; etc. (there are many such phrases throughout Scripture). Our hope is in eternal life and that salvation and at the redemption of our bodies we will realize that hope and bear the fruit of that enduring faith. Then we will be adopted as sons of God and then we are eternally secure.

So yes, there is eternal security. Just not as is taught by most today.

RabbiKnife
Jan 19th 2009, 01:47 PM
Christianity is filled with paradox and truths that are impossible or incongruent from a human perspective.

1. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
2. Jesus is God but died.
3. Salvation is a free gift yet costs you everything.
4. The believer can be 100% sure of his calling, election, and eternal security in faith and yet there remain the possibility of apostasy.

Just because I can't understand it doesn't mean it isn't true.

ProjectPeter
Jan 19th 2009, 01:50 PM
Christianity is filled with paradox and truths that are impossible or incongruent from a human perspective.

1. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
2. Jesus is God but died.
3. Salvation is a free gift yet costs you everything.
4. The believer can be 100% sure of his calling, election, and eternal security in faith and yet there remain the possibility of apostasy.

Just because I can't understand it doesn't mean it isn't true.
In many ways... that is truth. :)

reformedguy
Jan 19th 2009, 01:53 PM
The church is the bride of Christ, God divorced Israel because she was unfaithful, will He not divorce us if we are unfaithful?

Why does the law have to be erased? If you are told that stealing is a crime, does that mean that in order to steal you have to have that knowledge removed? No, you just disobey it. Just as the law written on our hearts, you can just disobey it, and many do.

Did He die for our sins or not? Yes he did, however, who sins did He die for? His sheep, who are His sheep? Those who know His voice and "follow" Him. If you stop following Him you are no longer one of His sheep.


So your basically saying that sheep becomes goats? Do you have a example of a sheep becoming a goat anywhere? In scripture would be a good place to start. And your saying the great Shepard loses some of His sheep? Didnt He say if He had 100 sheep and one went lost He would go recover it?

ProjectPeter
Jan 19th 2009, 02:16 PM
So your basically saying that sheep becomes goats? Do you have a example of a sheep becoming a goat anywhere? In scripture would be a good place to start. And your saying the great Shepard loses some of His sheep? Didnt He say if He had 100 sheep and one went lost He would go recover it?
If you want to try and take the "sheep" analogy where it wasn't intended to go... where do you stop? For example... if going by your logic... how can a goat become a sheep and show me in Scripture where it shows a goat becoming a sheep. You cannot any more than a person can show you an analogy where goats turn to sheep therefore it is impossible for a goat to ever become a sheep. ;)

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 02:57 PM
The term OSAS and NOSAS are simply identifying labels that man has made up to try and sum up a persons belief in a phrase.

Take for example myself. NOSAS. But then not really because I do believe in eternal security for those saved. Thing is... while we are still here in the nasty now and now, we are people saved by faith. We aren't yet saved in reality and that time comes when we are no longer of this world and we have in fact finished the race; stood firm until the end; endured to the end; persevered; etc. (there are many such phrases throughout Scripture). Our hope is in eternal life and that salvation and at the redemption of our bodies we will realize that hope and bear the fruit of that enduring faith. Then we will be adopted as sons of God and then we are eternally secure.

So yes, there is eternal security. Just not as is taught by most today.

So no endurance to the end means no salvation?

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 19th 2009, 03:04 PM
So no endurance to the end means no salvation?

Firstfruits
I can't find any such passage in Scripture saying otherwise.

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 03:09 PM
I can't find any such passage in Scripture saying otherwise.

Therefore what Jesus has said is direct and to the point we must endure to the end.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

reformedguy
Jan 19th 2009, 04:40 PM
If you want to try and take the "sheep" analogy where it wasn't intended to go... where do you stop? For example... if going by your logic... how can a goat become a sheep and show me in Scripture where it shows a goat becoming a sheep. You cannot any more than a person can show you an analogy where goats turn to sheep therefore it is impossible for a goat to ever become a sheep. ;)


The sheep have always been sheep that is why we will hear his voice right? Given Gods omniscience this would be true correct? God knows who the sheep and the goats are correct? After all he created them that way right? Knowing full well ones eternal destination correct? So if God creates a goat it does not become a sheep because it was never intended to be a sheep.;)

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 04:44 PM
The sheep have always been sheep that is why we will hear his voice right? Given Gods omniscience this would be true correct? God knows who the sheep and the goats are correct? After all he created them that way right? Knowing full well ones eternal destination correct? So if God creates a goat it does not become a sheep because it was never intended to be a sheep.;)

Are all that are unsaved goats?

Are those that have come to christ sheep?

Firstfruits

reformedguy
Jan 19th 2009, 04:50 PM
Are all that are unsaved goats?

Are those that have come to christ sheep?

Firstfruits

Yes all the unsaved are goats just as their creator created them. Some who come to Christ are wolves in sheeps clothing as the apostle Paul informs us. They appear to be sheep on the outside but on the inside they are not geniune. Wouldnt you agree?:)

wtj
Jan 19th 2009, 05:04 PM
G0d is a spirit – who’s spirit indwells – That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:21

When we have the spirit of god we sin not - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1John 3:6

Satan is a spirit – who’s spirit indwells - And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. John 13:27

But one can quench the holy spirit that it leaves - as Sampson did - Quench not the Spirit. 1Th. 5:19 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

This we know that when we sin that it is not the spirit of god that indwells. He who has the spirit of Satan hath not gods eternal life dwelling in him.

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. Ezek. 33:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matt. 24:13

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 19th 2009, 05:06 PM
What are we saved FROM?

The correct answer to this question will answer your original question.

Also a correct focus on the OBJECT of our salvation will answer this. For if it is the decision of the sinner, then yes the sinner can again decide to quit following ... however, if it is the action of the Savior, then what could negate the action of the Savior?

What saves you, and what are you saved from are the two questions that really matter regarding this issue.

This reply was overlooked by many another comment after it, so bringing this back up front so it can be read a bit closer....

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 19th 2009, 05:25 PM
So no endurance to the end means no salvation?

Firstfruits

If you look at many references of 'enduring to the end', they are surrounded by 'last days context...'


So by context, those who survive in faith during this very trying time of tribulation and persecution, if they hold on, whether by death or by rapture - as some are destined to die because of their faith - will confirm to themselves their salvation - Look at Matthew 24:13 and Revelation 3:21; 12:17 as a prime example.



So 'enduring to the end' doesn't also hold to mean enduring 'til you die', as some here try to explain.... Salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and because of God, least any man boast, so if Christ be in you, then you are His. Humbled gave a better set of questions to ask than the beloved [O]SAS debate.

For His glory...
RbG

Bladers
Jan 19th 2009, 06:39 PM
Think on this, if you live in your mom's house. Then one day you decide to move out, are you associated or benefit with the things that goes in the house any longer? No, cause your not apart of it.

Same with the Kingdom of God, if you accept Jesus. The angels welcome you through the gates. if you reject Jesus after accepting Him, is to carry your bags and leave Kingdom. If you decide to leave, your no more God's property or heir...

Salvation are only given to the children of the Household of God, if you walk out. Your no more in the house or in the household. Outside the gates the bible says; are sinners...

Its just like the healthcare plan that people have, if a child live with their parents, it applies to them. But once they move out of the family, your no longer covered.

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 07:33 PM
Yes all the unsaved are goats just as their creator created them. Some who come to Christ are wolves in sheeps clothing as the apostle Paul informs us. They appear to be sheep on the outside but on the inside they are not geniune. Wouldnt you agree?:)

Thanks reformedguy,

Even though some that come to Christ are not genuine, we were all under sin, we were all goats, therefore for us to become sheep we had to change in order to belong to God. Unless we have not changed and we are still unsaved, meaning that we are still goats.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 07:46 PM
If you look at many references of 'enduring to the end', they are surrounded by 'last days context...'


So by context, those who survive in faith during this very trying time of tribulation and persecution, if they hold on, whether by death or by rapture - as some are destined to die because of their faith - will confirm to themselves their salvation - Look at Matthew 24:13 and Revelation 3:21; 12:17 as a prime example.



So 'enduring to the end' doesn't also hold to mean enduring 'til you die', as some here try to explain.... Salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and because of God, least any man boast, so if Christ be in you, then you are His. Humbled gave a better set of questions to ask than the beloved [O]SAS debate.

For His glory...
RbG

If the promise we have cannot be obtained until the end (eternal life) would that mean that endurance meant until the end, as we cannot obtain the promise until we die?

Heb 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
God bless you!

Firstfruits

crystalbrite
Jan 19th 2009, 08:26 PM
Christianity is filled with paradox and truths that are impossible or incongruent from a human perspective.

1. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
2. Jesus is God but died.
3. Salvation is a free gift yet costs you everything.
4. The believer can be 100% sure of his calling, election, and eternal security in faith and yet there remain the possibility of apostasy.

Just because I can't understand it doesn't mean it isn't true.

A lot of unbelievers don't understand the Trinity. I get because I get it through the Holy Spirit. Just try to explain it to an unbeliever! :B

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 08:50 PM
Yes Paul is telling them to look forward to the glory. That glory is our salvation that is completed when we are resurrected.

Yes to be completed (although in Heaven it is now completed)

If I died as a very wealthy man, and left in my will all that I had to my child. In that will I stated that when the child reaches the age of 21, he will receive all that I gave. In the mean time, he should have all that is needed for his growth and wellbeing.

The child has received his full inheritance, but has not yet entered into the fullness of it.

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 08:59 PM
Yes to be completed (although in Heaven it is now completed)

If I died as a very wealthy man, and left in my will all that I had to my child. In that will I stated that when the child reaches the age of 21, he will receive all that I gave. In the mean time, he should have all that is needed for his growth and wellbeing.

The child has received his full inheritance, but has not yet entered into the fullness of it.

For the children of God we will not get our inheritance until the end or when we die.

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 09:00 PM
I've been quite hard on those of NOSAS doctrines. Now, it is your turn.

You say "There are indeed many "conditions" such as perserverance, turning from sin, etc. But do not worry."

I say...

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Of course worry. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Paul, who had was told by Christ Himself that he was a chosen instrument thought he could be a castaway.

Only those that persevere to the end are justified. There is no guarantee that those who believe they are saved will persevere to the end and therefore are justified.

This is why I say that there is no blessed assurance.

I believe I am saved. Paul believed he was saved. However, Paul and I both know that unless we endured to the end, we may not be saved.

Not one of us can be sure we are born again and the born again are the only ones that will be saved. Many will believe they are born again and find Christ saying "I never knew you".

Sure, the born again have eternal security, but that security comes only from enduring to the end, which no one alive on earth has done yet.


Those who are born again WILL endure to the end.

How can we work out our Salvation, if God has not worked it in?

If you are not sure that God has worked it in, then your working it out will not be with faith.

reformedguy
Jan 19th 2009, 09:07 PM
Thanks reformedguy,

Even though some that come to Christ are not genuine, we were all under sin, we were all goats, therefore for us to become sheep we had to change in order to belong to God. Unless we have not changed and we are still unsaved, meaning that we are still goats.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


But Christ does not say that the goats will hear His voice, only His sheep will hear His voice but that being said I do not wish to hijack this thread. I believe OSAS is the topic and we seem to be veering off the path so to speak.

God bless you as well brother (or sister) :)

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 09:09 PM
Those who are born again WILL endure to the end.

How can we work out our Salvation, if God has not worked it in?

If you are not sure that God has worked it in, then your working it out will not be with faith.

If you have not started the journey can you be expected to endure to the end, so was Jesus talking about believers that must endure to the end in order to be saved?

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mk 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Mk 13:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 09:11 PM
Those who believe they are born again do not know they are born again. Many of them think they know they are born again (and some will actually be right), but until they have actually endured to the end, they cannot know.

I'm not saying they aren't born again, I'm just saying they might not be and need to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. They need to endure to the end to ensure they were born again.

If Paul couldn't say he was qualified beyond a shadow of a doubt, how can I?

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Php 1:25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Php 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

Was Paul being presumptuous when he wrote this?

crystalbrite
Jan 19th 2009, 09:18 PM
Those who believe they are born again do not know they are born again. Many of them think they know they are born again (and some will actually be right), but until they have actually endured to the end, they cannot know.

I'm not saying they aren't born again, I'm just saying they might not be and need to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. They need to endure to the end to ensure they were born again.

If Paul couldn't say he was qualified beyond a shadow of a doubt, how can I?

I get what you are saying. There are people who think they are born again' but really aren't... That accounts for Jesus saying, "I'll tell My Father I never knew them." However, real born again people will persevere to the end because they love God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and want to do His will. Yerp, I get ya! :spin:

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 09:21 PM
But Christ does not say that the goats will hear His voice, only His sheep will hear His voice but that being said I do not wish to hijack this thread. I believe OSAS is the topic and we seem to be veering off the path so to speak.

God bless you as well brother (or sister) :)

But we were all goats if we were all unsaved, so at what point do we change into sheep?

Remember that we are not really goats or sheep.

Firstfruits (Brother)

crystalbrite
Jan 19th 2009, 09:44 PM
Think on this, if you live in your mom's house. Then one day you decide to move out, are you associated or benefit with the things that goes in the house any longer? No, cause your not apart of it.

Same with the Kingdom of God, if you accept Jesus. The angels welcome you through the gates. if you reject Jesus after accepting Him, is to carry your bags and leave Kingdom. If you decide to leave, your no more God's property or heir...

Salvation are only given to the children of the Household of God, if you walk out. Your no more in the house or in the household. Outside the gates the bible says; are sinners...

Its just like the healthcare plan that people have, if a child live with their parents, it applies to them. But once they move out of the family, your no longer covered.

If one truly accepts Jesus as their Savior and has a relationship with Him, who could turn away? the only people who could turn away are those who never truly accepted Him in the first place. There is a big difference between giving lip service to Jesus and really, truly accepting Him as your Savior and Lord and uniting with Him as a child of God.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 19th 2009, 09:55 PM
I get what you are saying. There are people who think they are born again' but really aren't... That accounts for Jesus saying, "I'll tell My Father I never knew them." However, real born again people will persevere to the end because they love God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and want to do His will. Yerp, I get ya! :spin:

The true born again, will not be greeting Jesus Christ with 'Lord we did this, or Lord we did that', they glory in their own works. We will be giving Him all the Glory, honour and thanks for what He has done for us, in us and through us, for His own Glory sake.

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 11:29 PM
There is no 'IF's'

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

I am amazed how far some will go, to try and kill off some of His sheep.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.


There may be not be "if"'s in the passages you quoted, but there are in other passages. Also, when John speaks of the believing sheep, he uses the present tense, so, the promise is "only" the those who are presenetly believing. Also "sheep" is a reference to the Jews, where are the gentiles ever referred to as sheep?????

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 11:35 PM
i will say this as i always do:

Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f7) for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified these he also glorified.

there is no such thing as a person that God justifies that He does not glorify.

If someone tells you different, they are saying that this verse is a lie. Plain and simple. It doesnt matter how many Scriptures someone throws at you, it doesnt matter how much they yell at you, it doesnt matter how much they want to argue, it doesnt matter if they type in big red font. If someone has an interpretation that those whom God justifies might not be glorified, THEY ARE A LIAR. The Bible itself says that those whom GOd justifies, these same ones He glorifies. It does not say, those whom He justified have the potential to be glorified. It says all who are justified will be glorified

Those whom He justified these(same ones that were justified) He also glorified.

Those whom God justifies He glorifies. there are no exceptions. Some will try to tell you that loving God is a condition of being justified, which is not the case, for it is not of ourselves that we have been saved. Even if love was a condition to be justified(which it isnt, but lets assume it was), once that person was justified by God, THEY WILL be glorified, or else this verse is a lie.

Have a blessed day, and if you have truly been justified, do not let the joy of Gods promise to glorify you be snatched by those who have flawed doctrine. NO matter what people say to you, remember in your mind, those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There are indeed many "conditions" such as perserverance, turning from sin, etc. But do not worry. There are many verses that promise that God will indeed complete His work in you unto the day of Christ. He will keep you. You are in the hands of Jesus and you are HIs responsibility. Its His job not to lose you, not yours. If you have truly been justified, God has given you a new heart and placed His fear in you, that you shall not turn away.

Later,
Reformedct:cool:


Reformed---there is no such thing as a person that God justifies that He does not glorify.


Can you show me this in Scripture?

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 11:39 PM
Yes Paul is telling them to look forward to the glory. That glory is our salvation that is completed when we are resurrected.

Paul is telling them what happened in the past, that is why "all" of the verbs are past tense. Paul is describing something that God had done in the past.

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 11:44 PM
So your basically saying that sheep becomes goats? Do you have a example of a sheep becoming a goat anywhere? In scripture would be a good place to start. And your saying the great Shepard loses some of His sheep? Didnt He say if He had 100 sheep and one went lost He would go recover it?

Was Judas not one of those chosen by Christ?

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 11:53 PM
The sheep have always been sheep that is why we will hear his voice right? Given Gods omniscience this would be true correct? God knows who the sheep and the goats are correct? After all he created them that way right? Knowing full well ones eternal destination correct? So if God creates a goat it does not become a sheep because it was never intended to be a sheep.;)

Can you show from Scripture that some were created sheep and some goats?

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 12:23 AM
Thanks reformedguy,

Even though some that come to Christ are not genuine, we were all under sin, we were all goats, therefore for us to become sheep we had to change in order to belong to God. Unless we have not changed and we are still unsaved, meaning that we are still goats.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Christ did not refer to goats. Christ said, "I have other sheep not of this fold." The born again are always sheep. They were never goats.

Sheep refers to those who have been, are, or will be born again.
Goats are those who have not been, are not, or will not be born again.


Those who are born again WILL endure to the end.

How can we work out our Salvation, if God has not worked it in?

If you are not sure that God has worked it in, then your working it out will not be with faith.

I never disagreed with that. Those who are born again will endure to the end. 100% of the time. Without fail. The problem is assuming we are born again. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure. If you are born again, it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose (Philippians 2:13)


If you have not started the journey can you be expected to endure to the end, so was Jesus talking about believers that must endure to the end in order to be saved?


All those who are born again are believers. Not all believers are those who are born again.


Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Php 1:25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Php 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

He was confident that he would complete the race, as we all are. He also knew that if he called it the end now, he was saved. However, that does not negate the fact that he admits he could become a castaway or disqualified. He, like anyone who is truly born again will do, had to endure to the end or find he was never born again.


I get what you are saying. There are people who think they are born again' but really aren't... That accounts for Jesus saying, "I'll tell My Father I never knew them." However, real born again people will persevere to the end because they love God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and want to do His will. Yerp, I get ya!

Yes, you do. :) Thank you.


There may be not be "if"'s in the passages you quoted, but there are in other passages. Also, when John speaks of the believing sheep, he uses the present tense, so, the promise is "only" the those who are presenetly believing. Also "sheep" is a reference to the Jews, where are the gentiles ever referred to as sheep?????

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

The sheep shall never perish. The only other ones that have this characteristic are those who are born again. Thus, the sheep = the born again.


Was Judas not one of those chosen by Christ?

Chosen to be a disciple though he was a devil already. Never chosen to eternal life, but doomed to perdition.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 20th 2009, 12:24 AM
There may be not be "if"'s in the passages you quoted, but there are in other passages. Also, when John speaks of the believing sheep, he uses the present tense, so, the promise is "only" the those who are presenetly believing. Also "sheep" is a reference to the Jews, where are the gentiles ever referred to as sheep?????

So, you want to take the "if's" out of other passages, and plant them in these passages, just make your erroneous theories look good?

Matt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

or would you have it:
Matt 25:33 And he shall set the Jews on his right hand, but the the rest of the nations in the world on the left. :hmm:


John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Does this only apply to the Jews?

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does this only apply to the Jews?

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Does this only apply to the Jews?

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2009, 12:36 AM
The sheep have always been sheep that is why we will hear his voice right? Given Gods omniscience this would be true correct? God knows who the sheep and the goats are correct? After all he created them that way right? Knowing full well ones eternal destination correct? So if God creates a goat it does not become a sheep because it was never intended to be a sheep.;)I think it is the reformed folk that say all men are born reprobate. That being said... good luck finding an analogy describing reprobate sheep. ;)

faithfulfriend
Jan 20th 2009, 12:48 AM
Christ did not refer to goats. Christ said, "I have other sheep not of this fold." The born again are always sheep. They were never goats.

Sheep refers to those who have been, are, or will be born again.
Goats are those who have not been, are not, or will not be born again.

That is incorrect.

In the passages in Matthew 18 concerning the one lost sheep, those who are saved are represented by the sheep who are IN the fold.

Those who are lost are represented by the sheep who are NOT in the fold. Therefore there was a sheep who was saved, then lost. Obviously the shepherd represents Christ.

To argue that the sheep are still secure because they are a sheep is completely invalid.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 12:49 AM
Partaker of Christ---So, you want to take the "if's" out of other passages, and plant them in these passages, just make your erroneous theories look good?

I did not say take the if's out of other passages and insert them into your passages, I said, there are other passages that contain if.



Partaker of Christ---Matt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
or would you have it:
Matt 25:33 And he shall set the Jews on his right hand, but the the rest of the nations in the world on the left.


Show me this applies to the gentiles. Keep in mind that at this time salvation had not yet gone to the gentiles.


Partaker of Christ---John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Who are the other sheep? Jesus does not tell us. Do you know?


Partaker of Christ---Does this only apply to the Jews?
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Notice Paul quoted the OT, this is a reference to Israel. He did not say the gentiles were sheep.


Partaker of Christ---Does this only apply to the Jews?
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Who is this book written to ???

[QUOTE]Partaker of Christ---Does this only apply to the Jews?
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
[/QUOTE

]Who was Peter addressing ????

1 Peter 1:1 ( KJV ) 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Peter 1:1 ( YLT ) 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
He is addressing the Jews.

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2009, 12:49 AM
If you look at many references of 'enduring to the end', they are surrounded by 'last days context...'


So by context, those who survive in faith during this very trying time of tribulation and persecution, if they hold on, whether by death or by rapture - as some are destined to die because of their faith - will confirm to themselves their salvation - Look at Matthew 24:13 and Revelation 3:21; 12:17 as a prime example.



So 'enduring to the end' doesn't also hold to mean enduring 'til you die', as some here try to explain.... Salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and because of God, least any man boast, so if Christ be in you, then you are His. Humbled gave a better set of questions to ask than the beloved [O]SAS debate.

For His glory...
RbG
You still say that after the MANY times that I have shown that to be a false assumption? I find that rather odd.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

1 Corinthians 16:13 ¶Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Philippians 4:1 Therefore, my beloved brethren whom I long to see, my joy and crown, so stand firm in the Lord, my beloved.

1 Thessalonians 3:6 But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us, longing to see us just as we also long to see you,
7 for this reason, brethren, in all our distress and affliction we were comforted about you through your faith;
8 for now we really live, if you stand firm in the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 ¶But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14 And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Hebrews 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hebrews 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

Revelation 3:11 `I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, in order that no one take your crown.
12 `He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Those are but some of many more verses that teach us the necessity of endurance.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 01:21 AM
That is incorrect.

In the passages in Matthew 18 concerning the one lost sheep, those who are saved are represented by the sheep who are IN the fold.

Those who are lost are represented by the sheep who are NOT in the fold. Therefore there was a sheep who was saved, then lost. Obviously the shepherd represents Christ.

To argue that the sheep are still secure because they are a sheep is completely invalid.

Did the sheep return to the Shephard or did the Shephard go get the lost sheep?

Is it God's will that Christ lose any?

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 01:40 AM
Many of them think they know they are born again (and some will actually be right), but until they have actually endured to the end, they cannot know.

I'm saying that not all are deceived. Some believe they are born again and are born again. However, there is no litmus test except for that of enduring to the end. Only then can one be sure.Notice you didn't say 'they believed they were born again'? You said they think. Then you said 'believe' but they are not, but first you also said 'not all are deceived'. I see a lot of word juggling and assumption in your reasoning. It says, many will say....is that because they thought or because they believed? If believed how can you say they were not deceived whether by themselves or the devil?

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 01:45 AM
Are all that are unsaved goats?

Are those that have come to christ sheep?

FirstfruitsAre we assuming here this is the Judgment? If so why? Does other scripture confirm that those without works will be saved or damned?

There's over a page of posts here declaring what is contrary to the gospel using Mat 25 which is after Mat 24 where we see one taken and another left.

TrustingFollower
Jan 20th 2009, 03:44 AM
Paul is telling them what happened in the past, that is why "all" of the verbs are past tense. Paul is describing something that God had done in the past.
You are going to have to help out on this. Which verses are you referring to?

TrustingFollower
Jan 20th 2009, 03:53 AM
Paul makes it pretty clear in Romans that God will in deed cut off thase that do not continue in faith. This also shows that they were born again because they were grafted into the vine.

Romans 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. (22) Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 04:02 AM
Notice you didn't say 'they believed they were born again'? You said they think. Then you said 'believe' but they are not, but first you also said 'not all are deceived'. I see a lot of word juggling and assumption in your reasoning. It says, many will say....is that because they thought or because they believed? If believed how can you say they were not deceived whether by themselves or the devil?

I am using believing and thought interchangably. I agree.

1. Those who are born again will be saved.
2. There are those who don't believe or think they are born again and are not. They shall perish.
3. There are those that do believe or think that they are born again and are not. They shall perish.
4. There are those that do believe or think they are born again and are correct. They have everlasting life.
5. There are those who do not know if they are born again or not and are. They have everlasting life.
6. There are those who do not know if they are born again or not and are not. They shall perish.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 04:03 AM
Paul makes it pretty clear in Romans that God will in deed cut off thase that do not continue in faith. This also shows that they were born again because they were grafted into the vine.

Romans 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. (22) Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Where does it say that those who were grafted into the vine were born again?

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 04:03 AM
Show me this applies to the gentiles. Keep in mind that at this time salvation had not yet gone to the gentiles.Salvation not going to the gentiles is irrelevant here because what was said in Mat 25 is future. After Mat 24 Jesus said 'then shall the kingdom of heaven be like...."

To say Mat 25 does not include gentiles is to assume no Gentiles will survive the Tribulation and only Israel will survive. I don't know of any text to support that do you? Israel and Gentile will be both sheep and goats, depending on their works, according to Mat 25. Faith is not in the picture. There's no need for it at this point with the king of kings standing in front of them and the elect already taken in Mat 24.

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 04:05 AM
Where does it say that those who were grafted into the vine were born again?How else is one to be a part of His body?

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

topcat2
Jan 20th 2009, 04:33 AM
I have had friends who believed that a saved person could lose their salvation..some of the scriptures listed in some above posts, would be their basis of fact.The only interpretation that I've ever received in reading God's Word is that Christ's sacrifice was perfect, and if I could do anything to change what He did on that cross to buy my eternal salvation, after I have accepted Him as my savior , then the sacrifice that was made would then become an imperfect sacrifice..that is what I have come to believe., and the theory of losing my salvation through something I can do just doesn't seem correct, to me.

TrustingFollower
Jan 20th 2009, 04:42 AM
Where does it say that those who were grafted into the vine were born again?
Paul is teaching the same thing Jesus taught.

John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 04:52 AM
How else is one to be a part of His body?

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.


Paul is teaching the same thing Jesus taught.

John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Whatever is born of God will overcome and not have unbelief.

Those branches that were broken off did not overcome, had unbelief, and therefore could not be born again.

TrustingFollower
Jan 20th 2009, 05:16 AM
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Whatever is born of God will overcome and not have unbelief.

Those branches that were broken off did not overcome, had unbelief, and therefore could not be born again.
They had to abide in the vine first, before they could be broken off. If they abide in the vine then they were in deed born again. Can't abide in the vine without being born again.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 05:30 AM
They had to abide in the vine first, before they could be broken off. If they abide in the vine then they were in deed born again. Can't abide in the vine without being born again.

Nice words, but unscriptural.

Once again, I ask where does it say that those who abide in the vine are born again?

I know this:

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Is unbelief sin? I say absolutely.

Yet, Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Those who were broken off were broken off because of unbelief. Did they sin? If so, then we can say they did not abide in him, or John lied.

TrustingFollower
Jan 20th 2009, 05:39 AM
Hey you don't have to go to this so and so lied if someone shows you that you don't have all the answers. Look at the scriptures posted. It is clear that they were part of the vine and broken off. I did not write that into the scriptures God did. Continue in faith and all is good, doubt your faith and fall away from believing and become broken off. Very clear in that passage. Hebrews 6 also shows that someone can be born again and fall away.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 06:07 AM
Those branches that were broken off did not overcome, had unbelief, and therefore could not be born again.The branches that were broken off were before the cross. ;) Of course this holds true for natural branches in unbelief after the cross as well.

crystalbrite
Jan 20th 2009, 06:42 AM
Yukerboy: "All those who are born again are believers. Not all believers are those who are born again."

That is exactly right. The devil is a believer, but he sure isn't born again!

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 06:49 AM
Hey you don't have to go to this so and so lied if someone shows you that you don't have all the answers.

John says those who abide in Him do not sin. You say those who abide in him do sin. One is lying and the other is correct.


Look at the scriptures posted. It is clear that they were part of the vine and broken off.

Agreed.


I did not write that into the scriptures God did. Continue in faith and all is good, doubt your faith and fall away from believing and become broken off. Very clear in that passage.

Agreed again.



Hebrews 6 also shows that someone can be born again and fall away.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


Is falling away sin? If it is, then we can say, for this and John to be right, that it is impossible to renew those who have fallen away to repentance. Repentance, being a gift from God, is irrevocable. There is no such thing as God granting repentance, taking it away and granting it again.

Who falls away? The seed sown on the rocky soil is the ONLY time Christ defines those who fall away. Those who believe for a while, then fall away.

Did they belong to us? John says the only ones that belong to us (the sheep) are those that remain with us (the sheep).

Firstfruits
Jan 20th 2009, 09:25 AM
Yukerboy: "All those who are born again are believers. Not all believers are those who are born again."

That is exactly right. The devil is a believer, but he sure isn't born again!

Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

All the children of God are born again.

Are we being led by the Spirit of God? if not then we are not children of God we are not born again.

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 20th 2009, 02:29 PM
Where does it say that those who were grafted into the vine were born again?If the cultured branches were cut off for unbelief... do you really believe that God would graft in unbelieving wild ones? That is just devoid of God given common sense. :rolleyes:

Nevertheless... let's actually look at the passage.

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Paul is speaking of those with faith who are in His kindness. That's what the passage makes clear. He is not talking about unbelievers here.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 09:51 PM
You are going to have to help out on this. Which verses are you referring to?

Romans 8:29-30.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 10:20 PM
Salvation not going to the gentiles is irrelevant here because what was said in Mat 25 is future. After Mat 24 Jesus said 'then shall the kingdom of heaven be like...."

To say Mat 25 does not include gentiles is to assume no Gentiles will survive the Tribulation and only Israel will survive. I don't know of any text to support that do you? Israel and Gentile will be both sheep and goats, depending on their works, according to Mat 25. Faith is not in the picture. There's no need for it at this point with the king of kings standing in front of them and the elect already taken in Mat 24.

I'll concede that verse.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 10:55 PM
John says those who abide in Him do not sin. You say those who abide in him do sin. One is lying and the other is correct.



Agreed.



Agreed again.



Is falling away sin? If it is, then we can say, for this and John to be right, that it is impossible to renew those who have fallen away to repentance. Repentance, being a gift from God, is irrevocable. There is no such thing as God granting repentance, taking it away and granting it again.

Who falls away? The seed sown on the rocky soil is the ONLY time Christ defines those who fall away. Those who believe for a while, then fall away.

Did they belong to us? John says the only ones that belong to us (the sheep) are those that remain with us (the sheep).

Yukerboy, I posted a post addressed to you, later I was reading over the post and realized I spelled your name wrong and fixed it. Come to find out that it was originally spelled correctly. It was an honest mistake and I apologize for doing so. I did not mean to insult you. If you were offended I apologize.

crystalbrite
Jan 20th 2009, 11:36 PM
Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

All the children of God are born again.

Are we being led by the Spirit of God? if not then we are not children of God we are not born again.

Firstfruits

:hmm: I'm not sure what your point was, but I don't disagree with what you wrote.:)

TrustingFollower
Jan 21st 2009, 02:17 AM
Romans 8:29-30.
You seem to be overlooking a small detail in there. The phrase "in order that he might be the first born among many brothers" The little phrase might be tells us that it is not a guarantee, but rather more of a promise. Paul wrote in chapter 5 that we are justified by faith, he wouldn't change that just a couple chapters later. In fact search all of Paul's letters and you will see the common theme, that theme is faith. Continue in faith and then there is nothing to worry about.

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 03:38 AM
You seem to be overlooking a small detail in there. The phrase "in order that he might be the first born among many brothers" The little phrase might be tells us that it is not a guarantee, but rather more of a promise. Paul wrote in chapter 5 that we are justified by faith, he wouldn't change that just a couple chapters later. In fact search all of Paul's letters and you will see the common theme, that theme is faith. Continue in faith and then there is nothing to worry about.

That is not hte issue I was addressing. I was just stating that verse 29 and 30 of Romans 8 are speaking of events in the past. When Paul speaks of being glorified in verse 30, he is not referring to a future glorification. He is speaking of something God has done in the past for previous saints.

TrustingFollower
Jan 21st 2009, 04:06 AM
That is not hte issue I was addressing. I was just stating that verse 29 and 30 of Romans 8 are speaking of events in the past. When Paul speaks of being glorified in verse 30, he is not referring to a future glorification. He is speaking of something God has done in the past for previous saints.
I don't argue that Christ died before Paul wrote the letter, but if you are implying that you have been glorified already then you are sadly mistaken. Look at the whole of scripture and see where all the apostles wrote about who we are glorified. It is plain to see that we do not have our glorified bodies yet and that our spirits are still held captive here in this corrupted world in a corrupted body.

Sirus
Jan 21st 2009, 04:43 AM
Ah...by faith
God calls that which is not as though it is then sees if man believes it. Who says what we have in our reality is God's reality? Doubting Thomas comes to mid here.....

Yukerboy
Jan 21st 2009, 07:01 AM
Yukerboy, I posted a post addressed to you, later I was reading over the post and realized I spelled your name wrong and fixed it. Come to find out that it was originally spelled correctly. It was an honest mistake and I apologize for doing so. I did not mean to insult you. If you were offended I apologize.

I was not offended and I appreciate your post.

I'm also impressed with the fact that this is the 133rd post to a thread called "Once saved always saved?" and no moderator has had to say "tone it down guys" or "be more careful in what you say before I close this thread." :lol:

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2009, 08:59 AM
:hmm: I'm not sure what your point was, but I don't disagree with what you wrote.:)

It is knowing who we are, knowing that by living and abiding in the Spirit of God that we are born again, that we are His children by His Spirit.

God bless!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 21st 2009, 05:40 PM
If the cultured branches were cut off for unbelief... do you really believe that God would graft in unbelieving wild ones? That is just devoid of God given common sense. :rolleyes:

Nevertheless... let's actually look at the passage.

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Paul is speaking of those with faith who are in His kindness. That's what the passage makes clear. He is not talking about unbelievers here.

PP, you are equating believers with being born again.

He is talking about believers here, I agree with you.

However, not all believers are born again. Some will fall away. The born again are the children of God. The Spirit giving birth to spirit. They are sons of God forever. Those who fall away aren't told "I knew you once but now I don't." They will be told "I never knew you".

ProjectPeter
Jan 21st 2009, 06:06 PM
So then the believe that isn't really born again can still make it if he just continues in God's kindness and never be born again? You aren't reading the clear writing of Paul there. He isn't talking about folks not born again.

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2009, 07:23 PM
PP, you are equating believers with being born again.

He is talking about believers here, I agree with you.

However, not all believers are born again. Some will fall away. The born again are the children of God. The Spirit giving birth to spirit. They are sons of God forever. Those who fall away aren't told "I knew you once but now I don't." They will be told "I never knew you".

What does it mean to you to be born again?

1 Tim 4:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.


When does a believer originally promised that befitting a child of God lose their benefits?

Lk 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Firstfruits

crystalbrite
Jan 21st 2009, 07:32 PM
It is knowing who we are, knowing that by living and abiding in the Spirit of God that we are born again, that we are His children by His Spirit.

God bless!

Firstfruits

My point was not about the saved, it was about believers who are not saved. Even Satan believes (knows) God is the Creator, and he believes (knows) Jesus died on the cross to restore mankind to righteous standing with God. Satan is definitely a believer, but he is definitely not saved.

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2009, 07:55 PM
My point was not about the saved, it was about believers who are not saved. Even Satan believes (knows) God is the Creator, and he believes (knows) Jesus died on the cross to restore mankind to righteous standing with God. Satan is definitely a believer, but he is definitely not saved.


With regards to what I wrote; Are we being led by the Spirit of God? if not then we are not children of God we are not born again.

It is clear that unbelievers are not born again or saved, that therefore means that only a believer can fail to endure by losing or by betraying the faith they have in Christ.

If you have not begun the race, can you lose your faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 09:07 PM
I don't argue that Christ died before Paul wrote the letter, but if you are implying that you have been glorified already then you are sadly mistaken. Look at the whole of scripture and see where all the apostles wrote about who we are glorified. It is plain to see that we do not have our glorified bodies yet and that our spirits are still held captive here in this corrupted world in a corrupted body.

I was not implying that I have been glorified. What I saw saying is this, in Romans 8:30 where Paul says those He justified He also glorified. Paul is referring the saints that had died before he wrote the letter to he Romans, he is referring to people like Abraham and David.

TrustingFollower
Jan 21st 2009, 11:07 PM
My point was not about the saved, it was about believers who are not saved. Even Satan believes (knows) God is the Creator, and he believes (knows) Jesus died on the cross to restore mankind to righteous standing with God. Satan is definitely a believer, but he is definitely not saved.
Knowing something and believing something are two completely different things. Satan knows God, does not believe in God. Hence the reason he was cast out of heaven. Satan did not believe God to be truly God the creator of all things. It is the same as me knowing the JW church is out there, but I don't believe in the JW church.

crystalbrite
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:10 AM
With regards to what I wrote; Are we being led by the Spirit of God? if not then we are not children of God we are not born again.

It is clear that unbelievers are not born again or saved, that therefore means that only a believer can fail to endure by losing or by betraying the faith they have in Christ.

If you have not begun the race, can you lose your faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I don't think true believers fail to endure or ever turn back. If a person turns away from Jesus, they never really followed Him in the first place.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:35 AM
Psa 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psa 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa 37:21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

Psa 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

Psa 37:26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.
Psa 37:27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psa 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
Psa 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
Psa 37:32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
Psa 37:33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2009, 09:11 AM
I don't think true believers fail to endure or ever turn back. If a person turns away from Jesus, they never really followed Him in the first place.

Thanks Crystalbrite,

If an unbeliever has never turned to Jesus and never followed him, how can they turn away from him or cease to endure what they have not begun?

Can you lose something that you never had?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 22nd 2009, 12:23 PM
If the promise we have cannot be obtained until the end (eternal life) would that mean that endurance meant until the end, as we cannot obtain the promise until we die?

Heb 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
God bless you!

Firstfruits

Sorry for the delay FF, for I've been traveling and will be on the road again in about an hour or two...

To your reply, again context, context, context....

Hebrews 6:15 refers to Abraham.... and thus by application, those too, who are in the faith who were before the birth and resurrection of Jesus [11:13]... By faith, they are saved just like us today


Have a great day!

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 12:41 PM
So then the believe that isn't really born again can still make it if he just continues in God's kindness and never be born again? You aren't reading the clear writing of Paul there. He isn't talking about folks not born again.

No, for all who believe and endure to the end are born again.

These are characteristics of the born again and also why no one can claim being born again. If you endured to the end, you were born again. If not, you never were.

If they continue in God's kindness to the end, they were born again. If not, they never were.


What does it mean to you to be born again?


The simplest explanation would be those who believe and endure to the end.


When does a believer originally promised that befitting a child of God lose their benefits?


They never had the benefits of the born again. The born again are made to endure to the end by Christ. If they didn't endure to the end, they were never born again, for Christ does not fail.

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2009, 12:46 PM
Sorry for the delay FF, for I've been traveling and will be on the road again in about an hour or two...

To your reply, again context, context, context....

Hebrews 6:15 refers to Abraham.... and thus by application, those too, who are in the faith who were before the birth and resurrection of Jesus [11:13]... By faith, they are saved just like us today


Have a great day!

Thanks Redeemed by Grace,

Knowing that we are saved just as they were, then we therefore know that we cannot receive the promise of eternal life until we die or at Christs return.

In therefore the same manner we too must endure until the end because as it is written;

Heb 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Safe journeying,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:08 PM
No, for all who believe and endure to the end are born again.

These are characteristics of the born again and also why no one can claim being born again. If you endured to the end, you were born again. If not, you never were.

If they continue in God's kindness to the end, they were born again. If not, they never were.

So then... folks were grafted into Christ although they weren't born again and they were drawing on the holy root and being sustained by that root even though they weren't for real... and yet we know that Jesus doesn't commit himself to those not "born again."

You have some real skeewaddy understanding of Scripture Yukerboy... gotta be honest with you there!

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:54 PM
So then... folks were grafted into Christ although they weren't born again and they were drawing on the holy root and being sustained by that root even though they weren't for real

You got it!


and yet we know that Jesus doesn't commit himself to those not "born again."

That would need to be backed by Scripture.

I know that the born again are made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21). I know that the born again will be kept blameless until the day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:8)
I know that the born again belong to God’s family forever (John 8:35, Romans 8:14)

Therefore, no one who is born again will be cast away.

Thus, if anyojne is cast away, they were not born again.

They may have believed for a while (seed on the rocky soil), but never were born again.


You have some real skeewaddy understanding of Scripture Yukerboy... gotta be honest with you there!

Define skeewaddy. I'm sure it's a Southern term for perfect and correct. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:36 PM
You got it!



That would need to be backed by Scripture.

I know that the born again are made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21). I know that the born again will be kept blameless until the day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:8)
I know that the born again belong to God’s family forever (John 8:35, Romans 8:14)

Therefore, no one who is born again will be cast away.

Thus, if anyojne is cast away, they were not born again.

They may have believed for a while (seed on the rocky soil), but never were born again.



Define skeewaddy. I'm sure it's a Southern term for perfect and correct. ;)
Skeewaddy is anything that is outside the boundary of having a real word to describe it. ;)

As to Scripture...

John 2:23 ¶Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs which He was doing.
24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,
25 and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man.

Many believed but in knowing their heart... Jesus didn't commit to them.

TrustingFollower
Jan 22nd 2009, 06:37 PM
No, for all who believe and endure to the end are born again.

These are characteristics of the born again and also why no one can claim being born again. If you endured to the end, you were born again. If not, you never were.
If no one is born again until they endure to the end then who do people have spiritual gifts?

1 Corinthians 12:1-5 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. (2) You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. (3) Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit. (4) Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; (5) and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;

If the Holy Spirit is inside someone then they would have to be born again.

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:06 PM
Skeewaddy is anything that is outside the boundary of having a real word to describe it. ;)

As to Scripture...

John 2:23 ¶Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs which He was doing.
24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,
25 and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man.

Many believed but in knowing their heart... Jesus didn't commit to them.

I guess we have a disagreement on what "commit to them" is.

Christ does not commit to those who are not born again, however, if they believe, they are fed from the same root (Word) as those who are born again. If they fall away, they were never born again and are broken off.


If no one is born again until they endure to the end then who do people have spiritual gifts?

Whoa!

I never said no one is born again until they endure to the end. No, there are many who are born again walking the earth right now. However, they would find that the only way to KNOW if they are born again is to endure to the end.

I'm sure many believers assume they are born again and are correct.

I'm just as sure many believers assume they are born again and are not.

The only way it can go from assumption to knowledge is enduring to the end.


1 Corinthians 12:1-5 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. (2) You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. (3) Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit. (4) Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; (5) and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;

If the Holy Spirit is inside someone then they would have to be born again.

Agreed.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:29 PM
Thanks Redeemed by Grace,

Knowing that we are saved just as they were, then we therefore know that we cannot receive the promise of eternal life until we die or at Christs return.

In therefore the same manner we too must endure until the end because as it is written;

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Safe journeying,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi FF,

I think you've got that backwards... The OT saints were saved just like us, not we like them... We have the fulfilled word of God behind us, they had the promise of God before them – that is Jesus.... So no one can come to God except through Jesus....So by faith in the promise of Christ - they were saved, by faith... we are saved in the fulfillment, by faith. That's why John the Baptist was the greatest OT prophet, for he was the only OT prophet to see Jesus face-to-face living on the earth and saw what the other prophets could only write about.


So no enduring or waiting is required.... Salvation is now. And to Hebrews 9:27, context again points somewhere else away from enduring to the end.


And thanks for your well wishing... God blessed today with good travels.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:44 PM
Hi FF,

I think you've got that backwards... The OT saints were saved just like us, not we like them... We have the fulfilled word of God behind us, they had the promise of God before them – that is Jesus.... So no one can come to God except through Jesus....So by faith in the promise of Christ - they were saved, by faith... we are saved in the fulfillment, by faith. That's why John the Baptist was the greatest OT prophet, for he was the only OT prophet to see Jesus face-to-face living on the earth and saw what the other prophets could only write about.


So no enduring or waiting is required.... Salvation is now. And to Hebrews 9:27, context again points somewhere else away from enduring to the end.


And thanks for your well wishing... God blessed today with good travels.

yes, we are saved by grace thru faith in the promises of God. ANd this is not of ourselves, we are in Christ becaus of His will. He predestined us to be adopted through Christ. He did not wait for us to get in Christ and thus predestine us. He predestined us to be adopted. ALl that the Father gives me will come to me, and i will raise Him up on the last day

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:46 PM
If no one is born again until they endure to the end then who do people have spiritual gifts?

1 Corinthians 12:1-5 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. (2) You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. (3) Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit. (4) Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; (5) and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;

If the Holy Spirit is inside someone then they would have to be born again.

Whoever believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, not will be born lol. He has caused us to be born again:

phillipians 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again (once again past tense)to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 23rd 2009, 12:27 AM
yes, we are saved by grace thru faith in the promises of God. ANd this is not of ourselves, we are in Christ becaus of His will. He predestined us to be adopted through Christ. He did not wait for us to get in Christ and thus predestine us. He predestined us to be adopted. ALl that the Father gives me will come to me, and i will raise Him up on the last day

Yep !

Yukerboy
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:31 AM
Whoever believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, not will be born lol. He has caused us to be born again:

phillipians 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again (once again past tense)to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

The ones represented by the rocky soil believed and then fell away.

If they have been born of God, then when they fell away, did they become unborn? Of course not. Thus, there are people who believe and were never born again.

crystalbrite
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:34 AM
Thanks Crystalbrite,

If an unbeliever has never turned to Jesus and never followed him, how can they turn away from him or cease to endure what they have not begun?

Can you lose something that you never had?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Isn't that a fallacious argument, though? We were dicussing onced saved, always saved. Not never saved.

Here's an example of a believer who is not saved. I personally know someone who believes in God, believes Jesus died on the cross to save mankind from ultimate destruction. However, he refuses to turn his life over to Christ because he's afraid he'll have to give up drinking. And to make matters worse, he does not appreciate what it means to be separated from God by going to hell. He already thinks he's separated from God right now, which he is, but the separation in hell is not the same as the separation here. Simply because God is not in hell, but He is here, and His presence is felt by all people whether they admit it or not. But, in hell, the separation is full and complete because God is not there in any way, shape or form. But, people in hell are very aware of His absence and it is the greatest torment of all. And that should answer your question about losing something you never had. They may never have had salvation, but all people inately have a little knowledge of God. So, if they end up going to hell, they lose all the essence of God within, are profoundly aware of the loss, and it is torment.

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2009, 10:19 AM
You got it!



That would need to be backed by Scripture.

I know that the born again are made to stand firm in Christ by God (2 Corinthians 1:21). I know that the born again will be kept blameless until the day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:8)
I know that the born again belong to God’s family forever (John 8:35, Romans 8:14)

Therefore, no one who is born again will be cast away.

Thus, if anyojne is cast away, they were not born again.

They may have believed for a while (seed on the rocky soil), but never were born again.



Define skeewaddy. I'm sure it's a Southern term for perfect and correct. ;)

What you say depends on whether or not we stand;

Eph 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

1 Thess 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

2 Thess 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

It is our responsibility.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:03 PM
What you say depends on whether or not we stand;

Eph 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

1 Thess 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

2 Thess 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

It is our responsibility.

Firstfruits

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

If the born again ever do not stand firm, not only did they fail (it is their responsibility), but God has failed (God promises to make them stand firm).

God doesn't fail, therefore the born again will not fail.

Without God, we can do nothing.

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:19 PM
2 Corinthians 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

If the born again ever do not stand firm, not only did they fail (it is their responsibility), but God has failed (God promises to make them stand firm).

God doesn't fail, therefore the born again will not fail.

Without God, we can do nothing.

Are you saying that a believers faith cannot fail?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:22 PM
Isn't that a fallacious argument, though? We were dicussing onced saved, always saved. Not never saved.

Here's an example of a believer who is not saved. I personally know someone who believes in God, believes Jesus died on the cross to save mankind from ultimate destruction. However, he refuses to turn his life over to Christ because he's afraid he'll have to give up drinking. And to make matters worse, he does not appreciate what it means to be separated from God by going to hell. He already thinks he's separated from God right now, which he is, but the separation in hell is not the same as the separation here. Simply because God is not in hell, but He is here, and His presence is felt by all people whether they admit it or not. But, in hell, the separation is full and complete because God is not there in any way, shape or form. But, people in hell are very aware of His absence and it is the greatest torment of all. And that should answer your question about losing something you never had. They may never have had salvation, but all people inately have a little knowledge of God. So, if they end up going to hell, they lose all the essence of God within, are profoundly aware of the loss, and it is torment.

Would you agree that only a believer can turn away from serving God, since an unbeliever would not have put their trust in God, or if they did that would then make them a believer.

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 02:27 PM
Would you agree that only a believer can turn away from serving God, since an unbeliever would not have put their trust in God, or if they did that would then make them a believer.

Firstfruits
It really is simple. An unbeliever, never turned to God, therefore an unbeliever can't turn away from God... it is like saying those abiding in him who no longer abide in him were never really abiding in the first place. Makes absolutely no sense if one really ponders what is actually being said.

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2009, 02:46 PM
Hi FF,

I think you've got that backwards... The OT saints were saved just like us, not we like them... We have the fulfilled word of God behind us, they had the promise of God before them – that is Jesus.... So no one can come to God except through Jesus....So by faith in the promise of Christ - they were saved, by faith... we are saved in the fulfillment, by faith. That's why John the Baptist was the greatest OT prophet, for he was the only OT prophet to see Jesus face-to-face living on the earth and saw what the other prophets could only write about.


So no enduring or waiting is required.... Salvation is now. And to Hebrews 9:27, context again points somewhere else away from enduring to the end.


And thanks for your well wishing... God blessed today with good travels.

Acts 15:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

What I am saying is that no believer can receive the promise of eternal life until the end, or when we die.

We must endure and we must wait.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2009, 02:49 PM
It really is simple. An unbeliever, never turned to God, therefore an unbeliever can't turn away from God... it is like saying those abiding in him who no longer abide in him were never really abiding in the first place. Makes absolutely no sense if one really ponders what is actually being said.

Thanks PP,

That's agreed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 03:06 PM
Are you saying that a believers faith cannot fail?

Firstfruits


I'm saying the faith of one who is born again cannot fail.

TrustingFollower
Jan 24th 2009, 04:52 PM
I'm saying the faith of one who is born again cannot fail.
Yet Hebrews tells us that they can fail. Who do you reconcile this with your theory?

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

If one tastes in the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit then they are in deed someone born again.

DeafPosttrib
Jan 24th 2009, 05:12 PM
Hebrews 4:4-6 clearly teach us, a person already did taste of salvation means person is already saved at the first place, then afterward fall away, and continue sinning life all the way, then, impossible for the person to be remain saved at the end. This doesn't saying that a perosn CANNOT have another chance to repentance again to be saved. Rather, this passage tells us, IF a person is CONTINUE sinning and backslidding ALL THE WAY till the end(at death-physical), therefore, a person is impossible remain saved afterward.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 05:27 PM
Hebrews 4:4-6 clearly teach us, a person already did taste of salvation means person is already saved at the first place, then afterward fall away, and continue sinning life all the way, then, impossible for the person to be remain saved at the end. This doesn't saying that a perosn CANNOT have another chance to repentance again to be saved. Rather, this passage tells us, IF a person is CONTINUE sinning and backslidding ALL THE WAY till the end(at death-physical), therefore, a person is impossible remain saved afterward.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!You mean Heb 6:4-6

It doesn't teach anyone tasted and fell away. Verse 1 and the previous chapter just told them to grow up and quit hanging around the basics and redoing the basics getting saved over and over because that is foolish nonsense. Verses 7-9 confirms that salvation in Christ is much more than that. Get off the milk, onto meat, and go on unto perfection in Christ, is the message here. They were Jews used to continual sacrifice, but that is no longer necessary.

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 05:41 PM
Yet Hebrews tells us that they can fail. Who do you reconcile this with your theory?

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

If one tastes in the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit then they are in deed someone born again.

I agree, it is impossible. It cannot happen. It is impossible to restore them to repentance, for repentance is an irrevocable gift granted by God.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 05:57 PM
I agree, it is impossible. It cannot happen. It is impossible to restore them to repentance, for repentance is an irrevocable gift granted by God.
Is it?

Matthew 18:21 *¶Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22 *Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 *"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 *"And when he had begun to settle them, there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents.
25 *"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 *"The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, `Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.´
27 *"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 *"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, `Pay back what you owe.´
29 *"So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, `Have patience with me and I will repay you.´
30 *"He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 *"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 *"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
33 *`Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?´
34 *"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 *"So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

1. Who does the king in this parable represent?

2. Does the king forgive the debt of the servant?

3. Does the servant continue in the kindness of the king?

4. Does the king then in fact call the servant back and revoke the mercy/forgiveness shown the servant?

5. Is the last punishment greater than the original punishment?

6. Did Jesus then make it clear to the disciples that the same would happen to them IF they didn't forgive their brother from their heart?

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 06:50 PM
1. Who does the king in this parable represent?

God.


2. Does the king forgive the debt of the servant?

Absolutely.


3. Does the servant continue in the kindness of the king?

No.


4. Does the king then in fact call the servant back and revoke the mercy/forgiveness shown the servant?

Absolutely.


5. Is the last punishment greater than the original punishment?

You bet.


6. Did Jesus then make it clear to the disciples that the same would happen to them IF they didn't forgive their brother from their heart?

Absolutely.

7. Was the servant renewed to repentance?

Absolutely not.

8. Could the disciples be renewed to repentance if they did not forgive from the heart?

Absolutely not.

9. Does anyone who is born again not forgive from the heart?

Absolutely not.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 07:03 PM
God.



Absolutely.



No.



Absolutely.



You bet.



Absolutely.

7. Was the servant renewed to repentance?

Absolutely not.

8. Could the disciples be renewed to repentance if they did not forgive from the heart?

Absolutely not.

9. Does anyone who is born again not forgive from the heart?

Absolutely not.
Now there you go... going well beyond anything in that parable as if Jesus wasn't smart enough to get something that important in His lesson to the disciples. :rolleyes:

Be careful in adding stuff that isn't even remotely close to being there.

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2009, 08:54 PM
God.



Absolutely.



No.



Absolutely.



You bet.



Absolutely.

7. Was the servant renewed to repentance?

Absolutely not.

8. Could the disciples be renewed to repentance if they did not forgive from the heart?

Absolutely not.

9. Does anyone who is born again not forgive from the heart?

Absolutely not.

Are you saying that if one that is born again has sinned that they cannot be restored with regards to the scripture?

Gal 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Jas 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I have to say that what you believe contradicts that which is written.

Firstfruits

Fresco
Jan 24th 2009, 09:03 PM
So those who say"Once saved always saved", you believe people like David Koresh ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh ) are in heaven now, correct??? Same goes for this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

Beause I have a hard time accepting that. A very hard time

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 09:13 PM
So those who say"Once saved always saved", you believe people like David Koresh ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh ) are in heaven now, correct??? Same goes for this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

Beause I have a hard time accepting that. A very hard time

That sort of thing really doesn't prove anything one way or the other as it is simply going by folks emotions in one way or the other. Better to stick with Scripture. There are plenty of passages to discuss that get into Scriptural truth rather than emotional appeal. :)

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2009, 09:15 PM
So those who say"Once saved always saved", you believe people like David Koresh ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh ) are in heaven now, correct??? Same goes for this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

Beause I have a hard time accepting that. A very hard time


I believe that what will be said is that they were never saved in the first place.

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 09:30 PM
Yet Hebrews tells us that they can fail. Who do you reconcile this with your theory?

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

If one tastes in the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit then they are in deed someone born again.

Does it say they will loose their salvation? NO
Does it say they cannot come back to God? NO

It says they cannot be born from above again, and again. They cannot crucify the Son of God to themselves afresh. Repentance unto Salvation is a once only, not several.

The foundation is laid, now move on, and build on that sure foundation.

Salvation is God's work, and only His work. It is a work of Gold, Silver and Precious Stones.

Neither you, nor I, nor any other created in the heavens or the earth, can add too His work, nor can we destroy His work. It is ALL His Glory, and He will not share His Glory with another.

He did not save you for your sake. He saved you for His sake.

Salvation is receiving the word. Baring fruit is through the understanding.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 09:33 PM
Does it say they will loose their salvation? NO
Does it say they cannot come back to God? NO

It says they cannot be born from above again, and again. They cannot crucify the Son of God to themselves afresh. Repentance unto Salvation is a once only, not several.

The foundation is laid, now move on, and build on that sure foundation.

Salvation is God's work, and only His work. It is a work of Gold, Silver and Precious Stones.

Neither you, nor I, nor any other created in the heavens or the earth, can add too His work, nor can we destroy His work. It is ALL His Glory, and He will not share His Glory with another.

He did not save you for your sake. He saved you for His sake.

Salvation is receiving the word. Baring fruit is through the understanding.
Nah... that's missing the context of the entire letter. The writer of Hebrews continues that theme throughout the letter and speaks of it again a bit later.

Hebrews 10:26 *¶For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 *but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 *Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 *How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 *For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 *It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 *¶But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33 *partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
34 *For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one.
35 *Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 *For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 *FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 *BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 *But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

He's clearly talking about salvation and how one can shrink back to destruction. Clue... shrinking back to destruction ain't talking about heaven and the preservation of the soul. ;)

aTrueHybrid
Jan 24th 2009, 09:34 PM
Well what about John 3:15 which says if we believe we have eternal life? If we lose our salvation, it was not eternal to begin with.

And what about 1 John 2:19 which shows if they left the faith they were not of the faith to begin with?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 09:37 PM
Is it?

Matthew 18:21 *¶Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22 *Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 *"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 *"And when he had begun to settle them, there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents.
25 *"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 *"The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, `Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.´
27 *"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 *"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, `Pay back what you owe.´
29 *"So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, `Have patience with me and I will repay you.´
30 *"He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 *"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 *"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
33 *`Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?´
34 *"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 *"So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

1. Who does the king in this parable represent?

2. Does the king forgive the debt of the servant?

3. Does the servant continue in the kindness of the king?

4. Does the king then in fact call the servant back and revoke the mercy/forgiveness shown the servant?

5. Is the last punishment greater than the original punishment?

6. Did Jesus then make it clear to the disciples that the same would happen to them IF they didn't forgive their brother from their heart?

Salvation is changing the heart. If the heart is not changed then it has not been received and understood.

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2009, 09:39 PM
Well what about John 3:15 which says if we believe we have eternal life? If we lose our salvation, it was not eternal to begin with.

And what about 1 John 2:19 which shows if they left the faith they were not of the faith to begin with?

When do we get what we have been promised, eternal life?

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 09:50 PM
Well what about John 3:15 which says if we believe we have eternal life? If we lose our salvation, it was not eternal to begin with.

And what about 1 John 2:19 which shows if they left the faith they were not of the faith to begin with?
The belief that John is speaking of is an enduring believing... one that is ever present. Eternal life (the age to come) hasn't began until you have endured to the end and at the redemption of your body. Paul speaks of that in the book of Romans.

Romans 8:23 *And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 *For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
25 *But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 09:51 PM
Salvation is changing the heart. If the heart is not changed then it has not been received and understood.
So then Jesus shouldn't have used this parable to make the point to the disciples... somewhere in that Jesus got it all wrong and the kingdom of heaven really can't be compared to this at all?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 10:02 PM
Is it?

Matthew 18:21 *¶Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22 *Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 *"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 *"And when he had begun to settle them, there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents.
25 *"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 *"The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, `Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.´
27 *"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 *"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, `Pay back what you owe.´
29 *"So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, `Have patience with me and I will repay you.´
30 *"He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 *"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 *"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
33 *`Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?´
34 *"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 *"So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

1. Who does the king in this parable represent?

2. Does the king forgive the debt of the servant?

3. Does the servant continue in the kindness of the king?

4. Does the king then in fact call the servant back and revoke the mercy/forgiveness shown the servant?

5. Is the last punishment greater than the original punishment?

6. Did Jesus then make it clear to the disciples that the same would happen to them IF they didn't forgive their brother from their heart?

Hi Ken!
Why do we assume that this has to do with salvation?
Is this parable about being a child of God, or a servant of the King?

Since you believe that we are not yet saved, are we servants of the King, before we are children of God?

Does the servant stop being a servant?

As a servant of the King, will we not do somethings that we need to seek forgiveness for?

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 10:06 PM
Hi Ken!
Why do we assume that this has to do with salvation?
Is this parable about being a child of God, or a servant of the King?

Since you believe that we are not yet saved, are we servants of the King, before we are children of God?

Does the servant stop being a servant?

As a servant of the King, will we not do somethings that we need to seek forgiveness for?
Again... did Jesus come up with a faulty analogy here? It is His words... not Ken's words. You have to first decide... is this like the kingdom of heaven and if it is then God will certainly revoke mercy God has shown... will He not?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 10:13 PM
So then Jesus shouldn't have used this parable to make the point to the disciples... somewhere in that Jesus got it all wrong and the kingdom of heaven really can't be compared to this at all?

Jesus is teaching them how they should treat one another, as His servants. Obviously the servant that had just been forgiven much, did not have a change of heart.

He who has been forgiven much loves much. The servant has not seen the debt owed to be much, for he say that he will pay if given time to pay.

Many Christian see some sin as not being too grievous, when if fact God hates all sin, and even the stain of sin.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 10:15 PM
Jesus is teaching them how they should treat one another, as His servants. Obviously the servant that had just been forgiven much, did not have a change of heart.

He who has been forgiven much loves much. The servant has not seen the debt owed to be much, for he say that he will pay if given time to pay.

Many Christian see some sin as not being too grievous, when if fact God hates all sin, and even the stain of sin.
You can speculate a lot about what you think it means even though it isn't what was said nor the point Jesus made. Was the servant forgiven by God? Did God later revoke that forgiveness? Did Jesus not tell the disciples that the same would happen to them IF they didn't forgive their brother with their heart?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 10:21 PM
Again... did Jesus come up with a faulty analogy here? It is His words... not Ken's words. You have to first decide... is this like the kingdom of heaven and if it is then God will certainly revoke mercy God has shown... will He not?

No ken. Jesus never gets it wrong. We do get it wrong.

Now why not answer the questions, instead of throwing in a red herring?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 10:29 PM
You can speculate a lot about what you think it means even though it isn't what was said nor the point Jesus made. Was the servant forgiven by God? Did God later revoke that forgiveness? Did Jesus not tell the disciples that the same would happen to them IF they didn't forgive their brother with their heart?

I am sure that if you can speculate, then so can I. You take this parable out of context, and then tell me that I am speculating.:)

This is about a King and the Kingdom, and about our conduct of service in His Kingdom. It is not about being a child of God.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 10:32 PM
No ken. Jesus never gets it wrong. We do get it wrong.

Now why not answer the questions, instead of throwing in a red herring?
I didn't toss out a red herring at all. I am not second guessing what Jesus said in that parable and simply taking it for what it actually says. What does it actually say without any commentary?

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 10:34 PM
I am sure that if you can speculate, then so can I. You take this parable out of context, and then tell me that I am speculating.:)

This is about a King and the Kingdom, and about our conduct of service in His Kingdom. It is not about being a child of God.
Excuse me... I simply quoted the parable how it is written. I didn't say "what He really meant was" nor did I try and explain away what Jesus actually did say.

Did Jesus say that God would revoke the mercy shown His servant if they did didn't forgive their brother from the heart? If God will revoke the mercy/forgiveness shown this servant and God warns the disciples that the same could happen to them IF.... why do you think we are immune from such a revocation of mercy if we don't forgive our brothers from the heart?

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 10:38 PM
Are you saying that if one that is born again has sinned that they cannot be restored with regards to the scripture?

Gal 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Jas 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I have to say that what you believe contradicts that which is written.

Firstfruits

They believed. They have fallen. Yet, the born again does not fall. How can the Bible be any clearer? The born again are kept blameless until the end.


Eternal life (the age to come) hasn't began until you have endured to the end and at the redemption of your body. Paul speaks of that in the book of Romans.

I saw the passage talks of body redemption, but nothing on eternal life, but here's one that does.

John 5:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=5&verse=24&version=31&context=verse)
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Fresco
Jan 24th 2009, 10:43 PM
And what about 1 John 2:19 which shows if they left the faith they were not of the faith to begin with?
Believe it or not but I wasnt familiar with that verse.

I am now though and I have to agree, Koresh may never have been a real Christian to begin with.

aTrueHybrid
Jan 24th 2009, 11:03 PM
John 6:37

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

This supports not only Predestination, but also Once Saved Always Saved. Those the Father give Christ WILL come to Christ, and He will NEVER cast them out.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 11:08 PM
John 6:37

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

This supports not only Predestination, but also Once Saved Always Saved. Those the Father give Christ WILL come to Christ, and He will NEVER cast them out.
Why would Jesus cast out anyone that comes to him? Nevertheless... what about those who fall away from Him? Those that turn away... etc?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 24th 2009, 11:15 PM
Excuse me... I simply quoted the parable how it is written. I didn't say "what He really meant was" nor did I try and explain away what Jesus actually did say.

Did Jesus say that God would revoke the mercy shown His servant if they did didn't forgive their brother from the heart? If God will revoke the mercy/forgiveness shown this servant and God warns the disciples that the same could happen to them IF.... why do you think we are immune from such a revocation of mercy if we don't forgive our brothers from the heart?

And the parable speaks about a servant, who serves the King in His Kingdom.

You are trying to turn it into a matter of child of God, and His Heavenly Father. A matter of salvation, or the loss of salvation. You add your own bias to it.

You bias is, if we are good and faithful servant, then we might become children of God. Or our salvation is based on our service.

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 11:20 PM
Why would Jesus cast out anyone that comes to him? Nevertheless... what about those who fall away from Him? Those that turn away... etc?

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2009, 11:21 PM
John 6:37

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

This supports not only Predestination, but also Once Saved Always Saved. Those the Father give Christ WILL come to Christ, and He will NEVER cast them out.

It doesn't support either if you read it in context.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 11:50 PM
And the parable speaks about a servant, who serves the King in His Kingdom.

You are trying to turn it into a matter of child of God, and His Heavenly Father. A matter of salvation, or the loss of salvation. You add your own bias to it.

You bias is, if we are good and faithful servant, then we might become children of God. Or our salvation is based on our service.
If you notice and you don't even have to look very hard... I am not adding anything to it at all. I simply asked you a question in regard to the text itself. I haven't made any commentary at all to speak of.

Did the king show the servant mercy/forgiveness and then revoke that forgiveness and did Jesus warn the disciples that the very same could happen to them if they didn't forgive their brother from the heart?

Now look at that and notice... it is a question without my opinion attached at all. So... do you want to actually tackle that question according to that Scripture or do you just want to in fact be the one that offers your opinion and commentary while ignoring the clear text?

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 11:52 PM
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
If they "really didn't belong" then they were never part of them in the first place therefore they didn't really fall away from Christ if they were never part of Christ in the first place. Gotta figure that John is talking about something different here because John ain't talking about falling away. Call that a hunch on my part since Scripture doesn't contradict itself and there are many instances where it speaks of folks falling away. You guys take that one passage and toss it around as if it was a trump card to rid the Bible of the many instances where it does in fact speak of a person falling from the faith. Doesn't nor should it work that way. ;)

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 11:58 PM
If you fall away, you didn't remain.

If you didn't remain, you never belonged.

I thought it was pretty clear.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 12:03 AM
If you fall away, you didn't remain.

If you didn't remain, you never belonged.

I thought it was pretty clear.
If you were in in order to fall away... you had to belong. In other logic is pretty much simply deformed logic.

Fresco
Jan 25th 2009, 12:04 AM
If you fall away, you didn't remain.

If you didn't remain, you never belonged.

I thought it was pretty clear.
Its clear to me

Life as I see it is just one big test.
With death being the final exam

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 12:07 AM
If you were in in order to fall away... you had to belong. In other logic is pretty much simply deformed logic.

Logic?

I say those who fall away did not remain and therefore did not belong as John said.

You say they belonged, which John says means they remain, even though they fall away.

So if you fall away, you remain? Think it through

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 12:23 AM
Logic?

I say those who fall away did not remain and therefore did not belong as John said.

You say they belonged, which John says means they remain, even though they fall away.

So if you fall away, you remain? Think it through
Uh... again... John ain't talking about falling away folk. He never mentions that nor really even implies that. He is speaking of folks that teach that Jesus wasn't the Christ... antichrist.

1 John 2:18 *¶Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 *They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.
20 *But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
21 *I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 *Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 *Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 *As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 *And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

He is not speaking of one that falls away. Here, he is pretty much just speaking of wolves that come in... tares if you will. Sons of satan... seeds satan sows... etc... he covers all of that very well.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 25th 2009, 12:24 AM
If you notice and you don't even have to look very hard... I am not adding anything to it at all. I simply asked you a question in regard to the text itself. I haven't made any commentary at all to speak of.

Did the king show the servant mercy/forgiveness and then revoke that forgiveness and did Jesus warn the disciples that the very same could happen to them if they didn't forgive their brother from the heart?

Now look at that and notice... it is a question without my opinion attached at all. So... do you want to actually tackle that question according to that Scripture or do you just want to in fact be the one that offers your opinion and commentary while ignoring the clear text?

Ken, you gave this 'servant' text in response to Yukerboy's claim of irrevocable gift's and callings of repentance.
This has to do with repentance unto salvation, in Hebrew 6. This is to do with being children of God, not about a servant of the King.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 12:29 AM
Do those who fall away, never able to repent, deny the Father and the Son?

He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.

Did Christ mean that? Those who are not with Him are against Christ? Antichrist?

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 12:44 AM
Ken, you gave this 'servant' text in response to Yukerboy's claim of irrevocable gift's and callings of repentance.
This has to do with repentance unto salvation, in Hebrew 6. This is to do with being children of God, not about a servant of the King.
Uh... who does the king in the parable represent and who does the servant represent?

While you ponder... I'll answer and if you disagree... good luck showing that.

The parable represents God and the servant represents a disciple. Proof of that would be in the very last verse. Jesus made the message to the disciples VERY clear did he not? Now... if you want to try and make a case that Peter (who asked the question) wasn't a child of God... another good luck to you on that one. ;)

And by the way... you ever going to answer those questions I asked of you about that parable? So far... you have responded five or six times there or about and you seem to be avoiding answering. Curious as to why?

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 12:47 AM
Do those who fall away, never able to repent, deny the Father and the Son?

He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.

Did Christ mean that? Those who are not with Him are against Christ? Antichrist?
Well according to your doctrine... the only ones that can "fall away" are the ones God already created to fry in hell for eternity. More or less... they are firewood from before the foundation of the world and never could repent nor could they ever be anywhere to fall away from. Again... your doctrine is very full of issues. ;)

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 12:51 AM
Well according to your doctrine... the only ones that can "fall away" are the ones God already created to fry in hell for eternity. More or less... they are firewood from before the foundation of the world and never could repent nor could they ever be anywhere to fall away from.

Nah, they can believe for a while and fall away from that belief.

But, other than that, I think you got it.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:15 AM
Nah, they can believe for a while and fall away from that belief.

But, other than that, I think you got it.
Fall away from belief that wasn't real belief at all? If it was "real" belief then you have all sorts of biblical problems Hoss!

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:25 AM
Fall away from belief that wasn't real belief at all? If it was "real" belief then you have all sorts of biblical problems Hoss!

Those who "believed" for a while then fell away no doubt "repented".

However, true repentance and true belief are given by God to those who are/will be born again.

And what's with all the attacks? *puts back of hand to forehead looking drained* ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:31 AM
Those who "believed" for a while then fell away no doubt "repented".

However, true repentance and true belief are given by God to those who are/will be born again.

And what's with all the attacks? *puts back of hand to forehead looking drained* ;)
Attacks? I'd be quite interested in why you would consider anything I have asked and said an "attack?"

So... one can truly believe in on Him but not have everlasting life... but that must be what... because they were not considered the "elect?" Please note that we aren't talking about "repenting" but truly believing.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:39 AM
Attacks? I'd be quite interested in why you would consider anything I have asked and said an "attack?"

You said and I quote "I simply asked you a question in regard to the text itself." That's an attack if I ever saw one. *Overdramatizes fainting from the attack, taking about 2 1/2 minutes to fall down and then overemphasizes the wink*


So... one can truly believe in on Him but not have everlasting life... but that must be what... because they were not considered the "elect?" Please note that we aren't talking about "repenting" but truly believing.

K, Back to topic.

I never said that. True belief is given by God. Those who believed and fell away were never given true belief from God. They weren't born again.

As for repentance, replace belief with repentance in the sentence above and you will get the same idea.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:43 AM
You said and I quote "I simply asked you a question in regard to the text itself." That's an attack if I ever saw one. *Overdramatizes fainting from the attack, taking about 2 1/2 minutes to fall down and then overemphasizes the wink*I see.


K, Back to topic.

I never said that. True belief is given by God. Those who believed and fell away were never given true belief from God. They weren't born again.

As for repentance, replace belief with repentance in the sentence above and you will get the same idea.Then how can someone without true belief be a part of Christ?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 25th 2009, 01:44 AM
Uh... who does the king in the parable represent and who does the servant represent?

While you ponder... I'll answer and if you disagree... good luck showing that.

The parable represents God and the servant represents a disciple. Proof of that would be in the very last verse. Jesus made the message to the disciples VERY clear did he not? Now... if you want to try and make a case that Peter (who asked the question) wasn't a child of God... another good luck to you on that one. ;)

And by the way... you ever going to answer those questions I asked of you about that parable? So far... you have responded five or six times there or about and you seem to be avoiding answering. Curious as to why?

I believe your questions were aimed at Yukerboy. I merely pointed out that this text is out of context, to the point he was making.
He was talking about the gift of repentance unto salvation.

The parable is about Jesus the King, and His servants.

When we become children of God, then we enter His Kingdom. Only a child of God can become a servant in His Kingdom.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:48 AM
I believe your questions were aimed at Yukerboy. I merely pointed out that this text is out of context, to the point he was making.
He was talking about the gift of repentance unto salvation.

The parable is about Jesus the King, and His servants.

When we become children of God, then we enter His Kingdom. Only a child of God can become a servant in His Kingdom.
Who did Jesus liken the king to... again that last verse makes it clear. ;) So God will do to you IF....

Matthew 18:35 *"So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Why did Jesus tell them this? I mean I don't suppose that He was just yanking their chain with a wink and a grin... so He must have really meant it eh?

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:49 AM
Then how can someone without true belief be a part of Christ?

Where did I say they were?

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:52 AM
Where did I say they were?
You said they "fell away." The only way you can fall away from something is to be there in the first place.... right?

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2009, 11:12 AM
You cannot return to what you never left in the first place.

2 Pet 2:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If you have been washed clean and you have left the vomit behind, are you or are you not born again.

If not then it means that you were never clean in the first place, which is contrary to what is written.

We are either born again or we are not, there is no in between.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 02:56 PM
You said they "fell away." The only way you can fall away from something is to be there in the first place.... right?

Fell away from that belief. Not fall away from a secure position.

Christ said they fall away for their belief lasts a while, not enduring to the end.


You cannot return to what you never left in the first place.

2 Pet 2:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If you have been washed clean and you have left the vomit behind, are you or are you not born again.

If not then it means that you were never clean in the first place, which is contrary to what is written.

We are either born again or we are not, there is no in between.

Firstfruits

I agree, either you are crossed over from death to live, a son of God forever, will endure to the end, or you never were.

Absolutely.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 25th 2009, 04:42 PM
Who did Jesus liken the king to... again that last verse makes it clear. ;) So God will do to you IF....

Matthew 18:35 *"So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Why did Jesus tell them this? I mean I don't suppose that He was just yanking their chain with a wink and a grin... so He must have really meant it eh?

It does not alter the argument one jot Ken. The parable is about a servant and his King.
This is not about redemption, but service in His Kingdom.

I know you don't like the true meaning of this verse, but you cannot ignore it or change it:

Matt 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

The Lord Himself say's that this debt can be paid up in full, by the debtor.

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2009, 07:34 PM
Fell away from that belief. Not fall away from a secure position.

Christ said they fall away for their belief lasts a while, not enduring to the end.



I agree, either you are crossed over from death to live, a son of God forever, will endure to the end, or you never were.

Absolutely.

Knowing that all born again are washed and have turned away from sin (vomit) does that not mean that only those that are born again can return to sin after being washed clean?

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Jan 25th 2009, 07:51 PM
Knowing that all born again are washed and have turned away from sin (vomit) does that not mean that only those that are born again can return to sin after being washed clean?

Firstfruits

It does not say they were born of God.

The dog is still a dog, and the sow is still a sow.
Do you suggest that God produces children that are dogs and sows?

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 07:59 PM
Fell away from that belief. Not fall away from a secure position.

Christ said they fall away for their belief lasts a while, not enduring to the end.
So then they fell away from their belief which wasn't the true belief spoken of in Scripture that saves? If their belief wasn't true belief and in the end they didn't have true belief... they really didn't fall away from anything because they never had it to fall away from.

Again... if you say they had true belief and fell away... then you ain't believing in eternal security if you believe that true faith is what one needs to be saved. Again... you have conflicting doctrine here Yukerboy... no matter how you serve it up. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 08:04 PM
It does not say they were born of God.

The dog is still a dog, and the sow is still a sow.
Do you suggest that God produces children that are dogs and sows?
Uh... that passage was quoting a proverb. The point of the proverb isn't that one is a dog or a pig. :rolleyes:

Here is the person described.

They escaped the defilement of the world. They were free from this defilement. They escaped error.

There is only one way to escape that and this is through Christ. The point of the proverb is that they were washed and yet ultimately they return back to the mire. That they were washed makes it clear that this is speaking of folks washed in the Word. It is speaking of folks that were believers.

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2009, 08:05 PM
It does not say they were born of God.

The dog is still a dog, and the sow is still a sow.
Do you suggest that God produces children that are dogs and sows?

Who other than Christ can wash us clean?

Heb 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Rev 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

1 Cor 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph 5:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

What can wash away our sin?

How were they made clean without Christ?

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Jan 25th 2009, 08:19 PM
Who other than Christ can wash us clean?

Heb 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Rev 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

1 Cor 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph 5:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

What can wash away our sin?

How were they made clean without Christ?

Firstfruits

Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Again; The dog is still a dog, and the fool is still a fool.

Not all that are washed are clean:

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
John 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 11:29 PM
Knowing that all born again are washed and have turned away from sin (vomit) does that not mean that only those that are born again can return to sin after being washed clean?

Firstfruits

Of course not. The born again (sheep) come to Christ. Those who do not (dogs, wolves, etc...) wallow in their sins.

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 11:33 AM
Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Again; The dog is still a dog, and the fool is still a fool.

Not all that are washed are clean:

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
John 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

Was Jesus talking about Judas?

We were all sinners meaning that there was no difference, so how did we who were goats change into sheep?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 11:35 AM
Of course not. The born again (sheep) come to Christ. Those who do not (dogs, wolves, etc...) wallow in their sins.

It says that they return to their sins, after being made clean?

Firstfruits

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 26th 2009, 12:37 PM
Cannot a person believe in God and yet not be a believer of God?

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 02:02 PM
Cannot a person believe in God and yet not be a believer of God?
Sure they can. But that doesn't change the fact that one can be a believer of and or in God and later deny Him and walk away.

Fresco
Jan 26th 2009, 02:21 PM
Sure they can. But that doesn't change the fact that one can be a believer of and or in God and later deny Him and walk away.
They can walk away, but they can always come back to God (afterwards) also

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 02:27 PM
They can walk away, but they can always come back to God (afterwards) also
Never said otherwise on that. Flip-side to that... they might not come back. It happens.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 26th 2009, 03:00 PM
Cannot a person believe in God and yet not be a believer of God?


The Pharisees are a prime example that one can believe in God and not be of God... for Jesus declared that they are of their father, the ______!

Saving faith is of God [Ephesians 2:8], and anything else is temporal faith. The deciding factor again is of which faith do you have? God's? Or your own?

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 03:08 PM
The Pharisees are a prime example that one can believe in God and not be of God... for Jesus declared that they are of their father, the ______!

Saving faith is of God [Ephesians 2:8], and anything else is temporal faith. The deciding factor again is of which faith do you have? God's? Or your own?The Pharisee would be a great example of that sure enough.

Nevertheless...

Colossians 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach --
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

These are folks "reconciled in His fleshly body through death" and yet must "continue" in that faith firmly established and steadfast, not moved away from the HOPE of the gospel. If they don't... they won't be presented before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 26th 2009, 03:23 PM
Cannot a person believe in God and yet not be a believer of God?


The Pharisees are a prime example that one can believe in God and not be of God... for Jesus declared that they are of their father, the ______!

Saving faith is of God [Ephesians 2:8], and anything else is temporal faith. The deciding factor again is of which faith do you have? God's? Or your own?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Again, of which faith does one hold is the key.... If your faith is your faith, then it will fail some time now or in the future, and then they followed Him no more....

John 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

For His Glory...

RbG

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 03:44 PM
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Again, of which faith does one hold is the key.... If your faith is your faith, then it will fail some time now or in the future, and then they followed Him no more....

John 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

For His Glory...

RbG
But then in that same writing of John...

John 12:27 *¶"Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, `Father, save Me from this hour´? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 *"Father, glorify Thy name." There came therefore a voice out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
29 *The multitude therefore, who stood by and heard it, were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."
30 *Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 *"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.
32 *"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Partaker of Christ
Jan 26th 2009, 03:45 PM
Uh... that passage was quoting a proverb. The point of the proverb isn't that one is a dog or a pig. :rolleyes:

Here is the person described.

They escaped the defilement of the world. They were free from this defilement. They escaped error.

There is only one way to escape that and this is through Christ. The point of the proverb is that they were washed and yet ultimately they return back to the mire. That they were washed makes it clear that this is speaking of folks washed in the Word. It is speaking of folks that were believers.

In 2Peter the word washed 'louo' is middle voice (not active or passive)

(Passive) We are washed by the word of God, (active) we washed them with the word of God, (middle voice) we wash ourselves in the word of God.

So it would be that 'the dogs washed themselves in the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but then turned back to their own vomit' Having the knowledge, does not save anyone.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 03:58 PM
In 2Peter the word washed 'louo' is middle voice (not active or passive)

(Passive) We are washed by the word of God, (active) we washed them with the word of God, (middle voice) we wash ourselves in the word of God.

So it would be that 'the dogs washed themselves in the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, but then turned back to their own vomit' Having the knowledge, does not save anyone.
You need to read 2 Peter as a whole because you are totally missing the very fact that Peter is speaking of knowledge being the key to the sanctification process. Without knowledge... HIS people perish. Without that knowledge there is no maturity and without maturity... you will stumble and your call and election is not at all sure.

Ephesians 4:11 *And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 *for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 *until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.

You will see that this knowledge Peter is speaking of is central to his letter.

2 Peter 1:2 *Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

2 Peter 1:3 *seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

2 Peter 1:5 *Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;

2 Peter 1:6 *and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;

2 Peter 1:8 *For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 2:12 *But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

2 Peter 2:20 *For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

2 Peter 3:18 *but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

The knowledge of Jesus is the "true" knowledge that Peter is speaking of in this letter and in that second chapter. The knowledge that actually does empower one to escape the defilement of the world.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 26th 2009, 04:11 PM
You need to read 2 Peter as a whole because you are totally missing the very fact that Peter is speaking of knowledge being the key to the sanctification process. Without knowledge... HIS people perish. Without that knowledge there is no maturity and without maturity... you will stumble and your call and election is not at all sure.

Ephesians 4:11 *And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 *for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 *until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.

You will see that this knowledge Peter is speaking of is central to his letter.

2 Peter 1:2 *Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

2 Peter 1:3 *seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

2 Peter 1:5 *Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;

2 Peter 1:6 *and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;

2 Peter 1:8 *For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 2:12 *But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

2 Peter 2:20 *For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

2 Peter 3:18 *but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

The knowledge of Jesus is the "true" knowledge that Peter is speaking of in this letter and in that second chapter. The knowledge that actually does empower one to escape the defilement of the world.

How many people read the bible and gain a knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but they are never saved? Having a knowledge of Jesus Christ, and knowing Him is somewhat different.

It simply means that they have been washed in the word, they may have even changed their lifestyle, and stopped doing many thing that they formally did. The Churches are full of them today.

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 04:19 PM
Cannot a person believe in God and yet not be a believer of God?

If the scripture says that they have been washed clean then they are clean; Heb 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Unless we we do not believe then we are therefore not clean, as it is written we can return to sin.

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 04:32 PM
How many people read the bible and gain a knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but they are never saved? Having a knowledge of Jesus Christ, and knowing Him is somewhat different.

It simply means that they have been washed in the word, they may have even changed their lifestyle, and stopped doing many thing that they formally did. The Churches are full of them today.
Those are not people that have escaped anything. This passage in Peter is speaking of folks that escaped the defilement of the world. Folks that just "stop doing something bad" haven't escaped the defilement of the world... they are just acting differently. There is no escape save Jesus unless you want to make a case that a person that is "good" has really escaped the world... you'll have a biblical problem there though... I assure you. ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 26th 2009, 09:25 PM
If the scripture says that they have been washed clean then they are clean; Heb 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Unless we we do not believe then we are therefore not clean, as it is written we can return to sin.

Firstfruits

Hi Ff,

Who are the they here?

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 09:53 PM
It says that they return to their sins, after being made clean?

Firstfruits

Where does it say they were made clean?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 27th 2009, 01:01 AM
Those are not people that have escaped anything. This passage in Peter is speaking of folks that escaped the defilement of the world. Folks that just "stop doing something bad" haven't escaped the defilement of the world... they are just acting differently. There is no escape save Jesus unless you want to make a case that a person that is "good" has really escaped the world... you'll have a biblical problem there though... I assure you. ;)

:D Not so Ken!

To have been wash by Jesus Christ, it would have been 'louo' in the passive. Try as you may, but you cannot change the fact, that the washing is in the middle voice.

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 01:23 AM
:D Not so Ken!

To have been wash by Jesus Christ, it would have been 'louo' in the passive. Try as you may, but you cannot change the fact, that the washing is in the middle voice.
Um... again... it was a parable quote which would fit a parable. Certainly a pig isn't going to wash itself and that wasn't the point Peter was trying to make. However in the tense... that would have been the actual proverb. :rolleyes:

The text before makes it clear. It is speaking of folks escaping the defilement of the world. Now... show me Scripturally how one can escape defilement of the world without Christ? Show me too how one can escape error and still be in error. If they were still in error then they didn't escape nothing. It's quite clear for those that want to read it for what it says and free of doctrinal dogma. ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 27th 2009, 02:14 AM
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Again, of which faith does one hold is the key.... If your faith is your faith, then it will fail some time now or in the future, and then they followed Him no more....

John 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

For His Glory...

RbG


But then in that same writing of John...

John 12:27 *¶"Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, `Father, save Me from this hour´? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 *"Father, glorify Thy name." There came therefore a voice out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
29 *The multitude therefore, who stood by and heard it, were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."
30 *Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 *"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.
32 *"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

John 12:32 "And I, if1437 I am lifted5312 up from the earth1093, will draw1670 all3956 men3956 to Myself1683."

I see you force fitting this to fit your doctrine... but I'll play along for a moment and take what has been given.

As you and I should agree, this verse does not point that all men are saved... but yet you are using it to say that God draws all men....?

So let's look deeper... Notice that all and men are the same word - #3956, so we must conclude that the translation implies men with all, not wrong if meant to say not just Jews but all men - from every race, not just the Jews - will now be drawn to Jesus in Salvation because to His finished work on the cross. But if we say that each man is called and it's up to each man to do with the calling as each see's fit, it is not there.

So still --- one question still begs an answer, and it deals with what kind of faith you have.... for is it God-breathed, or self-enabled... that is the crux to the [N]OSAS understanding. So who here believes that they will fall away one day? Do you? I for one, do not, for what God has chosen as saved stays chosen and saved.


For His Glory...

RbG