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divaD
Jan 18th 2009, 07:02 AM
Here's another interpretation that I've observed being used by some others. For some reason, many take this verse to literally mean that Jesus did not come to call the righteous, as in there were actually righteous people to call, except that wasn't who Jesus came to call. This passage isn't even addressing this as a possibility. Jesus is simply making a point here. Does anyone know what that point is? I'll give you a clue. Keep in mind that He was saying this to the Pharisees. So, what did Jesus really mean when He stated 'for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance'? Ill give one more hint. Take a look in Matthew ch 23.

Matthew 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Diggindeeper
Jan 18th 2009, 07:37 AM
I've concluded there was no one on the face of the earth who prayed more, or louder, or who fasted more and put on a long, sad face to prove it, or who observed the Sabbath more diligently, or who even washed their hands more than the Pharasees; the RIGHTEOUS Pharasees!

My goodness, they were all the time looking down their noses at Jesus and his followers! They loved to be seen of men, and get high praises for all their righteousness. They craved titles.

But they were hypocrites; all their so-called righteousness was in doing to be seen and praised. They are summed up pretty well in this verse:

Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

...and notice, he was speaking to the MULTITUDE and to his disciples. He was telling them, "Don't pretend to be righteous. Practice what you preach!" :
Matthew 23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

For some reason, they were so haughty as to actually believe they were oh, so righteous, and everyone else was nothing in their eyes. Even Christ Jesus! But there is none righteous. No, not one. We (and they!) are nothing but dirt of the earth.

We best remind ourselves that pride was Satan's sin. Jesus saw right through all the "righteousness" of the Pharasees.

I hope I'm getting what you are aiming at. I look forward to checking this thread as it progresses!

Interesting!

timmyb
Jan 18th 2009, 02:41 PM
Here's another interpretation that I've observed being used by some others. For some reason, many take this verse to literally mean that Jesus did not come to call the righteous, as in there were actually righteous people to call, except that wasn't who Jesus came to call. This passage isn't even addressing this as a possibility. Jesus is simply making a point here. Does anyone know what that point is? I'll give you a clue. Keep in mind that He was saying this to the Pharisees. So, what did Jesus really mean when He stated 'for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance'? Ill give one more hint. Take a look in Matthew ch 23.

Matthew 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

he didn't come to call the self righteous... the Pharisees in their mind didn't need help... He starts the Sermon on the Mount with Blessed are the poor in spirit... but guys like Matthew who were in a tight situation the Pharisees didn't want him and he couldn't find a way out... Luckily for Matthew and for us, Jesus doesn't call the righteous, but sinner to repentance

divaD
Jan 18th 2009, 03:46 PM
I've concluded there was no one on the face of the earth who prayed more, or louder, or who fasted more and put on a long, sad face to prove it, or who observed the Sabbath more diligently, or who even washed their hands more than the Pharasees; the RIGHTEOUS Pharasees!

My goodness, they were all the time looking down their noses at Jesus and his followers! They loved to be seen of men, and get high praises for all their righteousness. They craved titles.

But they were hypocrites; all their so-called righteousness was in doing to be seen and praised. They are summed up pretty well in this verse:

Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

...and notice, he was speaking to the MULTITUDE and to his disciples. He was telling them, "Don't pretend to be righteous. Practice what you preach!" :
Matthew 23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

For some reason, they were so haughty as to actually believe they were oh, so righteous, and everyone else was nothing in their eyes. Even Christ Jesus! But there is none righteous. No, not one. We (and they!) are nothing but dirt of the earth.

We best remind ourselves that pride was Satan's sin. Jesus saw right through all the "righteousness" of the Pharasees.

I hope I'm getting what you are aiming at. I look forward to checking this thread as it progresses!

Interesting!



Hi Diggindeeper. You certainly have a correct understanding of this passage. This is exactly what I'm aiming at. I also like how you pinpointed Matthew 23:28 out of that ch. This was the exact same verse I was thinking of as well.

divaD
Jan 18th 2009, 03:48 PM
he didn't come to call the self righteous... the Pharisees in their mind didn't need help... He starts the Sermon on the Mount with Blessed are the poor in spirit... but guys like Matthew who were in a tight situation the Pharisees didn't want him and he couldn't find a way out... Luckily for Matthew and for us, Jesus doesn't call the righteous, but sinner to repentance



Hi timmyb. You also have a correct understanding of this passage as well. This was exactly what Jesus' point was...He didn't come to call the self righteous. Well said.

9Marksfan
Jan 19th 2009, 10:31 AM
Good posts - another good verse is Lk 17:9!

I've also heard the even MORE ridiculous interpretation that when Jesus said "righteous people who do not need to repent" in Lk 15:7 he meant that, once we are Christians ("righteous") we'll never need to repent again! Clearly such people don't have Rev 2 and 3 in their bibles!

divaD
Jan 19th 2009, 04:12 PM
Good posts - another good verse is Lk 17:9!

I've also heard the even MORE ridiculous interpretation that when Jesus said "righteous people who do not need to repent" in Lk 15:7 he meant that, once we are Christians ("righteous") we'll never need to repent again! Clearly such people don't have Rev 2 and 3 in their bibles!



I agree, LK 15:7 is another perfect example of a Scripture some tend to misinterpret. All one has to do once again is note whom Jesus was also addressing...those same Pharisees and scribes...those self righteous ones. Then it's pretty clear what He meant by "more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance".

reformedct
Jan 19th 2009, 09:45 PM
Here's another interpretation that I've observed being used by some others. For some reason, many take this verse to literally mean that Jesus did not come to call the righteous, as in there were actually righteous people to call, except that wasn't who Jesus came to call. This passage isn't even addressing this as a possibility. Jesus is simply making a point here. Does anyone know what that point is? I'll give you a clue. Keep in mind that He was saying this to the Pharisees. So, what did Jesus really mean when He stated 'for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance'? Ill give one more hint. Take a look in Matthew ch 23.

Matthew 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


he was reffering to people who were self-righteous. The people who were trusting and relying and boasting in their own righteousness aka the Pharisees. All have sinned. so when he says He didnt come for the righteous means he didnt come for self-righteous people. Also you can interpret it as Jesus saying no one is righteous in a way as well.

dan
Jan 20th 2009, 09:49 AM
he was reffering to people who were self-righteous. The people who were trusting and relying and boasting in their own righteousness aka the Pharisees. All have sinned. so when he says He didnt come for the righteous means he didnt come for self-righteous people. Also you can interpret it as Jesus saying no one is righteous in a way as well.

Just as you always have the poor, I believe, you also have the righteous. But, the righteous are not held up as examples, indeed, in the end times they will be shown to be evil.

JN 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
JN 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
JN 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 10:20 AM
Good posts - another good verse is Lk 17:9!

I've also heard the even MORE ridiculous interpretation that when Jesus said "righteous people who do not need to repent" in Lk 15:7 he meant that, once we are Christians ("righteous") we'll never need to repent again! Clearly such people don't have Rev 2 and 3 in their bibles!

Hmmm, I tend to believe the even more ridiculous interpretation.

Did Christ call the Pharisees to repent? Were the Pharisees sinners?

The only ones that would need to be called to repent are those who have not repented.

9Marksfan
Jan 20th 2009, 10:32 AM
Hmmm, I tend to believe the even more ridiculous interpretation.

Did Christ call the Pharisees to repent? Were the Pharisees sinners?

The only ones that would need to be called to repent are those who have not repented.

So why did he tell all but two of the churches in Asia to repent? Wasn't he telling Christians to repent there? Don't Christians disobey? Don't we need sanctification, which involves ongoing repentance and new obedience, by the Spirit?

9Marksfan
Jan 20th 2009, 10:34 AM
Just as you always have the poor, I believe, you also have the righteous. But, the righteous are not held up as examples, indeed, in the end times they will be shown to be evil.

Where do you see this in Scripture?


JN 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
JN 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
JN 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

How does that bear upon your contention that the righteous will be shown to be evil in the end times?

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 10:55 AM
So why did he tell all but two of the churches in Asia to repent? Wasn't he telling Christians to repent there?

He was telling the churches to repent, but not Christians. The born again have repented. Those who still need to repent are not born again. It is impossible to renew people to repentance. A person either has been granted repentance, will be granted repentance, or never will be granted repentance.


Don't Christians disobey?

No.



Don't we need sanctification, which involves ongoing repentance and new obedience, by the Spirit?


The born again are sanctified.

9Marksfan
Jan 20th 2009, 04:38 PM
No.

Wow - well I'm in one big heap of trouble then!


The born again are sanctified.

Why then are we encouraged to "pursue" and "perfect" holiness?

So you have never sinned since your conversion and will never sin until glory, right?

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 07:44 PM
Wow - well I'm in one big heap of trouble then!



Why then are we encouraged to "pursue" and "perfect" holiness?

So you have never sinned since your conversion and will never sin until glory, right?

just for a heads up, Yukerboy doesnt believe that Christians sin. He believes that when a person who believes in Christ sins it is not really that person but the flesh that did it. just thought i would let you know so your not too confused

9Marksfan
Jan 20th 2009, 09:30 PM
just for a heads up, Yukerboy doesnt believe that Christians sin. He believes that when a person who believes in Christ sins it is not really that person but the flesh that did it. just thought i would let you know so your not too confused

I kinda guessed that - but he comes over as believing in sinless perfection. I'll see what he comes back with.....

timmyb
Jan 21st 2009, 12:13 AM
to say we're legally righteous to approach God by Jesus blood covering our sins is one thing... but to say that our issue with sin is gone is a different can of beans...

God desires ALL men to repent and to come to the knowledge of the truth..

the reality is that Jesus is calling sinners... we're all sinners...but the first step to repentance is to admit that you are... kinda like addicts in rehab, they have to know that they have a problem and admit it and ask for help... Jesus by his calling is calling all men to repent, but not all have responded... it's a corporate call... meaning some will accept it and some will not... but to say that the unsaved have not been called is not biblically correct

dan
Jan 21st 2009, 08:57 AM
Where do you see this in Scripture?

Call it deductive reasoning:

We, as Christians, are described in the Bible as "walking in the light" of God:

1JN 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1JN 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1JN 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1JN 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1JN 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

In order for Satan to be transformed into a being of light, his works must be accepted by the Body Of Christ. Even if it is only one. This is part of the nature of the Falling Away.

2COR 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2COR 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2COR 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2COR 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Therefore, through whatever means, we will be forced to accept some sin as part of our acceptance by the beast. It has already happened.

How can a being of darkness allow himself to be close to the light? The answer is: He can't. But if the light weren't so bright, perhaps he could tolerate it. So he will add a lampshade to the light, so it isn't so blinding. That shade is one or more of Satan's works.

It reminds me of a part of a song:

"...I've seen angels fall from blinding heights,
But you yourself are nothing so divine,
Just next in line,
Arm yourself because no one else here will save you...":lol:


How does that bear upon your contention that the righteous will be shown to be evil in the end times?

Of course, it follows that, in order for one of Satan's works to be accepted, it must be presented as bad to everyone. And everyone must chew it and swallow.

And all of the brothers and sisters that continue to practice the work that has been brought to disrepute shall be hated by the rest of the congregation, for their refusal to submit to the "rules".

MT 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

MK 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.