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Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 03:37 PM
If we do not know if we are born again, how do we know whether we are children of God or children of the devil, with all the scriptures that verify/ identify those that are children of God and those that are not?

Who is our father?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

reformedct
Jan 19th 2009, 03:46 PM
whoever loves the brethren has been born of God

Yukerboy
Jan 19th 2009, 04:00 PM
If we do not know if we are born again, how do we know whether we are children of God or children of the devil, with all the scriptures that verify/ identify those that are children of God and those that are not?

Who is our father?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

As you have shown in another thread. Those who endure to the end are born again.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 19th 2009, 04:05 PM
If we do not know if we are born again, how do we know whether we are children of God or children of the devil, with all the scriptures that verify/ identify those that are children of God and those that are not?

Who is our father?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Born again Feb 3 1994.. Touched by the GRACE of God.. I was going in a total opposite direction of Him.. then thru His Holy Spirit....He 'drew' me in.. By revelation He revealed His unmerited Goodness, Grace, and Mercy in my life, delivered me and set me free.. bringing this sinner to his knees... I will never forget that day.. It is Eternal.. I can still remember that as if it was yesterday..

How do I know I'm born again from Above?

His Spirit bears WITNESS with my spirit that I"m His child.. and not only that but a 'son'.. and an 'heir'...I know without a shadow of a doubt that my LORD and Savior is the ONLY True Living God
Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh.....who was crucified and He is 'alive' today.. for I know.. He 'touched' me.. He gave His life a Ransom for me and not only for me.. but those He came for and those He loves...
The devil today.. still wants me to believe what happened Feb 3 1994 .. didn't really happen.. it was a fluke... that I'm still lost and heading to hell, God has abandoned me... He is insideous in His attacks.. his fiery arrows flying in the face of Faith.. but taking the shield of Faith.. we quench those 'lies' and 'doubts'.. by the Shield of Faith.. and the Word..discerning and realizing that he is truly the 'father of lies'...

amen and amen..

Ye must be born again...from Above....by the Will of God and not by the will of men and their understanding..

amen and amen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 04:21 PM
As you have shown in another thread. Those who endure to the end are born again.

Thanks Yukerboy,

Would we not know whether we are born of God before the end, according to scripture?

Firstfruits

mikebr
Jan 19th 2009, 04:22 PM
If we do not know if we are born again, how do we know whether we are children of God or children of the devil, with all the scriptures that verify/ identify those that are children of God and those that are not?

Who is our father?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I would suggest that you go back and read John 3 and see what Jesus said about being born again.

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 04:22 PM
Born again Feb 3 1994.. Touched by the GRACE of God.. I was going in a total opposite direction of Him.. then thru His Holy Spirit....He 'drew' me in.. By revelation He revealed His unmerited Goodness, Grace, and Mercy in my life, delivered me and set me free.. bringing this sinner to his knees... I will never forget that day.. It is Eternal.. I can still remember that as if it was yesterday..

How do I know I'm born again from Above?

His Spirit bears WITNESS with my spirit that I"m His child.. and not only that but a 'son'.. and an 'heir'...I know without a shadow of a doubt that my LORD and Savior is the ONLY True Living God
Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh.....who was crucified and He is 'alive' today.. for I know.. He 'touched' me.. He gave His life a Ransom for me and not only for me.. but those He came for and those He loves...
The devil today.. still wants me to believe what happened Feb 3 1994 .. didn't really happen.. it was a fluke... that I'm still lost and heading to hell, God has abandoned me... He is insideous in His attacks.. his fiery arrows flying in the face of Faith.. but taking the shield of Faith.. we quench those 'lies' and 'doubts'.. by the Shield of Faith.. and the Word..discerning and realizing that he is truly the 'father of lies'...

amen and amen..

Ye must be born again...from Above....by the Will of God and not by the will of men and their understanding..

amen and amen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks TBD,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 04:26 PM
I would suggest that you go back and read John 3 and see what Jesus said about being born again.

Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So all that are born according to what Christ has said knows they are born again?

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 19th 2009, 06:45 PM
To be born again, meaning to be born from above, born of God, there is no question one must be aware of his or her faith, trust and acceptance along with devoting all that he or she is to God’s will. But as Jesus clearly instructed, the seal of this commitment or devotion is the Baptism of water. That is not to say that a person who has walked three quarters of the journey has not progressed but just as Jesus did not declare on the cross “ it is finished” until He was giving up His spirit, neither have we arrived until we have done what is required of us.

Firstfruits
Jan 19th 2009, 07:21 PM
To be born again, meaning to be born from above, born of God, there is no question one must be aware of his or her faith, trust and acceptance along with devoting all that he or she is to God’s will. But as Jesus clearly instructed, the seal of this commitment or devotion is the Baptism of water. That is not to say that a person who has walked three quarters of the journey has not progressed but just as Jesus did not declare on the cross “ it is finished” until He was giving up His spirit, neither have we arrived until we have done what is required of us.


Thank you Thomas 1621,

So to say we do not know whether or not we are born again is a no, no, or not scriptual with what is written, is that right?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 20th 2009, 12:57 AM
Thank you Thomas 1621,

So to say we do not know whether or not we are born again is a no, no, or not scriptual with what is written, is that right?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I have seen nothing to support the alternative at all. It is brought about by a conscious covenant.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 01:16 AM
Thanks Yukerboy,

Would we not know whether we are born of God before the end, according to scripture?

Firstfruits

There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again.

stillforgiven
Jan 20th 2009, 01:33 AM
There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again.

So, are we just hoping in the end we made it? Is it a roll of the dice at the end?

I'm not trying to be difficult. Sometimes it "seems" I doing alright, therefore born again, and other times (the past year), it seems I'm just as lost as the next person.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 01:39 AM
So, are we just hoping in the end we made it? Is it a roll of the dice at the end?

(I'm not trying to be difficult. Sometimes it "seems" I doing alright, therefore born again, and other times, it seems I'm just as lost as the next person.)


Even Paul hoped he would make it to the end.

It is difficult, though I know you are not trying to be.

There is no blessed assurance, so I can't tell anyone do not worry about your salvation. Worry. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure.

How? By believing to the end. The only ones that fall away, the only branches that are broken off, the only ones that are cast away are those who either never believed, or believed for a while and then fell away.

However, the ones who remain with us belong to us.

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 01:55 AM
There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 04:57 AM
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


I don't disagree with any one of these Scriptures.

Each one of them implies a continuing endurance to the end. Some will do the things above for a while and then fall away, those were not born again for the born again overcomes and endures to the end. Christ makes them endure to the end.

There are some seed that fall on rocky soil. They received the word with joy and believed, but then fell away. They did not endure to the end.

However, a son belongs to his Father forever. He will never fall away.

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 06:10 AM
Irrelevant to the fact that you said
"There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again."

They clearly show a knowing without consideration of enduring. Tomorrow takes care of itself.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 07:03 AM
Irrelevant to the fact that you said
"There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again."

They clearly show a knowing without consideration of enduring. Tomorrow takes care of itself.

But that knowledge is based on a condition.

Being born again is not.

1. The born again will persevere to the end.
2. Not one of us has persevered to the end.
3. None of us can then know we are born again and will persevere to the end.

rom826
Jan 20th 2009, 07:07 AM
There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again.


People know whether they have done Rom 10:9 or not.



That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 07:10 AM
But that knowledge is based on a condition.

Being born again is not.Yes, and faith without works is dead. ;)

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 07:21 AM
on second thought, that knowledge is based on fruit not condition, to put it more accurately. You are confusing the two.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 07:21 AM
People know whether they have done Rom 10:9 or not.


Quote:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


People know that they have done "shalt believe"?

No, they know if they have believed, or do believe, but they do not know if they shall believe.


Yes, and faith without works is dead.

Amen.

Sirus
Jan 20th 2009, 07:35 AM
on second thought, that knowledge is based on fruit not condition, to put it more accurately. You are confusing the two.
Just in case you didn't see it YB.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 07:46 AM
Just in case you didn't see it YB.

The knowledge comes from fulfilling conditions in the future, thus enduring to the end.

The fruits are a result of being born again, which cannot be known or recognized as fruit unless one endures to the end.

No one who is unsaved can have good fruit, nor can one who is born again have bad fruit.

Firstfruits
Jan 20th 2009, 09:20 AM
There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again.

Are you you not being led of the Spirit?

Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Are the children of God not born again?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 09:30 AM
Are you you not being led of the Spirit?

Rom 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Are the children of God not born again?

Firstfruits

Every son of God is born again.
Everyone who is born again is a child of God.

I believe I am led by the Spirit.
I believe you are led by the Spirit.
You believe you are led by the Spirit.
However, if you did not endure to the end, you were never led by the Spirit.
If I do not endure to the end, I was never led by the Spirit.
If I do not endure to the end, I was never a son of God.

A person can believe they are led by the Spirit and be wrong in that belief.

Firstfruits
Jan 20th 2009, 09:46 AM
Every son of God is born again.
Everyone who is born again is a child of God.

I believe I am led by the Spirit.
I believe you are led by the Spirit.
You believe you are led by the Spirit.
However, if you did not endure to the end, you were never led by the Spirit.
If I do not endure to the end, I was never led by the Spirit.
If I do not endure to the end, I was never a son of God.

A person can believe they are led by the Spirit and be wrong in that belief.

Are you saying that if we did according to the following scripture and then did not endure to the end, that we never followed in the first place?

Galatians 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Firstfruits

chad
Jan 20th 2009, 10:02 AM
You mean like in John 3:5; John3:7-8

(John 3:5 NIV) Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

(John 3:7 NIV) You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' (John 3:8 NIV) The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Born of water, possibly referring to Water Baptism (Water baptism = Johns Baptism for the repentence of sins) and born of the spirit referring to Baptism of the holy spirit?


(Eph 1:13 NIV) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, (Eph 1:14 NIV) who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.



I would suggest that you go back and read John 3 and see what Jesus said about being born again.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 10:15 AM
Are you saying that if we did according to the following scripture and then did not endure to the end, that we never followed in the first place?

Galatians 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Firstfruits

That's exactly what I am saying.

We can show fruits of the Spirit outwardly and not have them (Gandhi). A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

DIZZY
Jan 20th 2009, 12:19 PM
Even Paul hoped he would make it to the end.

It is difficult, though I know you are not trying to be.

There is no blessed assurance, so I can't tell anyone do not worry about your salvation. Worry. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure.

How? By believing to the end. The only ones that fall away, the only branches that are broken off, the only ones that are cast away are those who either never believed, or believed for a while and then fell away.

However, the ones who remain with us belong to us.


Hi Yukerboy,
I know for sure I have eternal salvation. God can not break his promise that all who believe in Jesus Christ shall have eternal salvation.

John 1:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

I know I am a child of God, for I believe in Jesus Christ.

John 6:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=29&version=50&context=verse)
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

I believe in the one God sent to die on the cross for my sins. Jesus Christ paid the price of my sins. No longer am I under the condemnation of God.

1 John 5:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=5&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

As I said I know I have eternal life for I believe in the Son of God.

There is nothing I can do to save my soul from my sin, but Jesus on the other hand gave his life so I may live.

Matthew 16:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=16&verse=26&version=50&context=verse)
For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Not even my best works are pleasing to God, but if those works are done in faith then God will be pleased.

We live by faith and we are saved by God's grace and mercy, even though we are undeserving Christ died for us.

I live in Christ and He reigns in me.

I have seen many people who profess to be christians but their lives show differently.

Yes you have to endure to the end, but that doesn't mean we will not make mistakes along the way. This is why we have an advocate in heaven for us.

1 John 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Our goal is not to sin, but we all slip up sooner or later.

1 John 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yes I slip up but if I confess my sin, I know my Lord is faithful and just to forgive me my sin.

1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I have no fear of being rejected by God or not receiving eternal life.

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 12:33 PM
Hi Yukerboy,
I know for sure I have eternal salvation. God can not break his promise that all who believe in Jesus Christ shall have eternal salvation.

John 1:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

I know I am a child of God, for I believe in Jesus Christ.

John 6:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=29&version=50&context=verse)
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

I believe in the one God sent to die on the cross for my sins. Jesus Christ paid the price of my sins. No longer am I under the condemnation of God.

1 John 5:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=5&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

As I said I know I have eternal life for I believe in the Son of God.

There is nothing I can do to save my soul from my sin, but Jesus on the other hand gave his life so I may live.

Matthew 16:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=16&verse=26&version=50&context=verse)
For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Not even my best works are pleasing to God, but if those works are done in faith then God will be pleased.

We live by faith and we are saved by God's grace and mercy, even though we are undeserving Christ died for us.

I live in Christ and He reigns in me.

I have seen many people who profess to be christians but their lives show differently.

Yes you have to endure to the end, but that doesn't mean we will not make mistakes along the way. This is why we have an advocate in heaven for us.

1 John 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Our goal is not to sin, but we all slip up sooner or later.

1 John 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yes I slip up but if I confess my sin, I know my Lord is faithful and just to forgive me my sin.

1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I have no fear of being rejected by God or not receiving eternal life.

Good on you!

Now, those who believe for a while and then fall away, did they know for sure they had eternal life?

Firstfruits
Jan 20th 2009, 01:41 PM
That's exactly what I am saying.

We can show fruits of the Spirit outwardly and not have them (Gandhi). A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

We were all sinners/bad fruit, so how do we now bear good fruit?

Firstfruits

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 20th 2009, 02:12 PM
Good on you!

Now, those who believe for a while and then fall away, did they know for sure they had eternal life?
What if we say those who fell away walked the Way to Zion for a while but then didn't keep to the straight and narrow and never ended up at their destination?

rom826
Jan 20th 2009, 03:37 PM
People know that they have done "shalt believe"?

No, they know if they have believed, or do believe, but they do not know if they shall believe.



Amen.

Let's look at that verse again.

Rom 10:9


That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


It does not say if you do these two things you might be saved. It say you shalt be saved. Furthermore, there are two ingedients to this verse. Believing alone is not the only part to the verse. Believing has to be followed with confessing Him as lord. If someone truly believes, it will be followed with the action of confessing Him as Lord.

Vhayes
Jan 20th 2009, 03:46 PM
Let's look at that verse again.

Rom 10:9


It does not say if you do these two things you might be saved. It say you shalt be saved. Furthermore, there are two ingedients to this verse. Believing alone is not the only part to the verse. Believing has to be followed with confessing Him as lord. If someone truly believes, it will be followed with the action of confessing Him as Lord.
I agree. And that confession will not be only with the mouth but with the heart and out of a grateful and submissive heart will come actions. But the actions are a RESULT of the salvation, not as a step towards that salvation.

As far as being born again - what does Jesus say?
John 3
5 - Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 - "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'


Paul also had something to say about it regarding the bond and the free -

Galatians 4
29 - But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

Firstfruits
Jan 20th 2009, 03:48 PM
How we are born again.

1 Pet 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Lk 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Lk 8:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Lk 11:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Rom 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1 Thess 2:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 Jn 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

By the scriptures given we must know whether or not we have heard the word of God and do it, we must know if we keep it or not.

Remember the parable of the sower.

Mt 13:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mt 13:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Mt 13:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mt 13:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

We must keep the word and do it.

We must endure to the end.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 20th 2009, 08:17 PM
If we do not know whether or not we live our live in righteousness would mean that we do not know what is sin, since sin/unrighteousness is contrary to righteousness.

1 Jn 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

God bless!

Firstfruits

rom826
Jan 20th 2009, 08:35 PM
We must endure to the end.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


It is the Spirit he has freely given us as a gift that causes us to endure to the end. Enduring to the end is not something we do by our own goodness.

Firstfruits
Jan 20th 2009, 08:44 PM
It is the Spirit he has freely given us as a gift that causes us to endure to the end. Enduring to the end is not something we do by our own goodness.

When we follow the Spirit and walk in the Spirit we have to live and walk therein however not all will endure.

Mk 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Firstfruits

Sirus
Jan 21st 2009, 01:36 AM
The knowledge comes from fulfilling conditions in the future, thus enduring to the end.

The fruits are a result of being born again, which cannot be known or recognized as fruit unless one endures to the end.

No one who is unsaved can have good fruit, nor can one who is born again have bad fruit.Having fruit is not a condition it is a result. Works are not a condition either.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The verses in John said nothing about the future. Nothing! That's all you. Again, tomorrow takes care of itself. You want to apply your theological definitions to a future scripture never concerns itself with. Warning to endure to the end is not a concern for a believer to consider or wonder if they will. We live today because tomorrow takes care of itself.

pc_benz
Jan 21st 2009, 02:14 AM
If I might jump in here, I think FirstFruits you have hit on the biggest and most important issue the American christian faces today. Are we truly born again? If you look at current polls and surveys that say things like 90 plus percent of people lie on a regular basis and about 60 percent of people claim to have a personal relationship with Christ, you should start to see there is a major problem. People seem to not be born again based on their actions.

I believe this is due to our preachers. Not all preachers mind you, but most preach you can get saved by praying a prayer. There is little to no mention about being born again and what that means. No mention of regeneration of the heart. No mention of voilating God's law. I would say that most people think sin is just basically doing something wrong to other people (which sin is), but most people don't understand they are sinning mainly agaisnt a holy God. When they lie, steal, lust, disobey their parents, etc...They are breaking God's moral law. Without this understanding how can a person really repent and turn towards God?

Two things I would point out which are in line with what you are saying I believe. First we must study Matthew chapter 7 closely and not forget our Lords words "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." And second, I believe we should understand our hearts can deceive us (Jerm.17:9). We should never really go by what we feel, but always examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Cor.13:5).

If you are not in God's word on a regular basis, let me encourge you to do so. His Word is Life and those who read it with a "humble" heart will receive grace.

John Piper is coming out with a new book called "Finally Alive" which deals directly with being born again. It's due to be released anytime now.

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2009, 08:54 AM
If I might jump in here, I think FirstFruits you have hit on the biggest and most important issue the American christian faces today. Are we truly born again? If you look at current polls and surveys that say things like 90 plus percent of people lie on a regular basis and about 60 percent of people claim to have a personal relationship with Christ, you should start to see there is a major problem. People seem to not be born again based on their actions.

I believe this is due to our preachers. Not all preachers mind you, but most preach you can get saved by praying a prayer. There is little to no mention about being born again and what that means. No mention of regeneration of the heart. No mention of voilating God's law. I would say that most people think sin is just basically doing something wrong to other people (which sin is), but most people don't understand they are sinning mainly agaisnt a holy God. When they lie, steal, lust, disobey their parents, etc...They are breaking God's moral law. Without this understanding how can a person really repent and turn towards God?

Two things I would point out which are in line with what you are saying I believe. First we must study Matthew chapter 7 closely and not forget our Lords words "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." And second, I believe we should understand our hearts can deceive us (Jerm.17:9). We should never really go by what we feel, but always examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Cor.13:5).

If you are not in God's word on a regular basis, let me encourge you to do so. His Word is Life and those who read it with a "humble" heart will receive grace.

John Piper is coming out with a new book called "Finally Alive" which deals directly with being born again. It's due to be released anytime now.

Thanks pc_benze,

I would also add that it would be pointless for us to work out our own salvation if we did not know where we stood by doing so.

Phil 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

DIZZY
Jan 21st 2009, 11:19 AM
Good on you!

Now, those who believe for a while and then fall away, did they know for sure they had eternal life?

I can not answer for others only myself, sorry.
I know in my life many things have happened and if it wasn't for my faith I would not have endured the hardships.

It is our faith in Christ that helps us to endure and that faith is not of ourselves, it is a gift to us by God.

I know by abiding in my Lord I will endure all things that are throne at me in this life. How do I know this? I am in him and he is in me, we are one and nothing can seperate us.


Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2009, 12:38 PM
Good on you!

Now, those who believe for a while and then fall away, did they know for sure they had eternal life?

That, I should say is the promise of eternal life which we we not obtain until the end.

Mk 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Mk 10:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Acts 13:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Tit 1:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=56&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

1 Jn 2:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

So it is a promise of etenal life which we will inherit if we endure until the end.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 21st 2009, 07:41 PM
If our lives/examples are according to the following then we are living according to Gods will and his Spirit.

1 Tim 4:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

1 Pet 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Eph 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Phil 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


We not only have to know that we are born again, but we also need to know those that do not follow the right example.

Phil 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

If we do not know if we are born again, how can we be expected to know another?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 21st 2009, 08:15 PM
But that knowledge is based on a condition.

Being born again is not.

1. The born again will persevere to the end.
2. Not one of us has persevered to the end.
3. None of us can then know we are born again and will persevere to the end.

I thought you said before you were born again....:o

pc_benz
Jan 21st 2009, 08:27 PM
Again I think we need to understand scripture tells us we cannot trust our hearts, and if we cannot trust are own hearts then we cannot trust other men to tell us the truth about our hearts.

The only source of true Truth is in scripture. We should pray with a "humble" heart the Lord would give us "Grace", and allow us to become his children, and would manifest His truth to us.

Then we should with a humble heart search scriptures on a regular basis, examining ourselves and working out our own salvations.

This is why I recommend feeding on God's word daily, without fail.

DIZZY
Jan 21st 2009, 11:49 PM
Philippians 2:11-13
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

It is God's will and promise of eternal life, and nothing can seperate us for it is God who is working in us.

Romans 8:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=31&version=50&context=verse)
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:26 AM
Even Paul hoped he would make it to the end.

It is difficult, though I know you are not trying to be.

There is no blessed assurance, so I can't tell anyone do not worry about your salvation. Worry. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Make your election sure.

How? By believing to the end. The only ones that fall away, the only branches that are broken off, the only ones that are cast away are those who either never believed, or believed for a while and then fell away.

However, the ones who remain with us belong to us.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Faith is assurance, not insurance.

1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is [the] assurance [or, substance] of [things] being hoped for [or, being confidently expected], [the] confident assurance [or, proof] of things not seen.

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2009, 08:58 AM
How can we who have put on Christ walk as though we do not know that we are Christs or that we are truly born again, is that not a contradiction, to be saved/born again but no know it?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2009, 09:01 AM
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Faith is assurance, not insurance.

1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is [the] assurance [or, substance] of [things] being hoped for [or, being confidently expected], [the] confident assurance [or, proof] of things not seen.

Thanks Partaker of Christ,

Blessed assurance Jesus is mine, o what a fore taste of glory divine!!!!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 22nd 2009, 09:05 AM
Philippians 2:11-13
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

It is God's will and promise of eternal life, and nothing can seperate us for it is God who is working in us.

Romans 8:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=31&version=50&context=verse)
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Thanks Dizzy,

If we believe God works in us then unless we doubt the power of God we must know we are born again.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:08 PM
Again I think we need to understand scripture tells us we cannot trust our hearts, and if we cannot trust are own hearts then we cannot trust other men to tell us the truth about our hearts.

The only source of true Truth is in scripture. We should pray with a "humble" heart the Lord would give us "Grace", and allow us to become his children, and would manifest His truth to us.

Then we should with a humble heart search scriptures on a regular basis, examining ourselves and working out our own salvations.

This is why I recommend feeding on God's word daily, without fail.

The trust is to be in God. In total honesty, it can be at first difficult for those who haven't known that relationship with Him but your advice is wise in that it is each persons responsibility to learn the Truth, Jesus, and in turn our faith, love and Trust will build. When total trust is reached, that is when a person reaches that point he or she can give all that they have been, all that they are and all that that will be to Him and in His control, then the Truth is easily seen.

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:39 PM
I thought you said before you were born again....:o

You'd have to find where I stated that and show me.

I believe, I have every intention of enduring to the end and I believe I am born again.

I cannot KNOW I am born again.


Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


I believe I have full assurance of faith. However, if I should fall away, the fact then remains I was not born again and had no assurance. It wasn't God that failed.


1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

I do not deny the power of the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit is a guarantee you are born again and will endure to the end.

2 Corinthians 5:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

I believe I have the Holy Spirit and will endure to the end. If I do not endure to the end, then I never had the Holy Spirit. God's guarantees don't fail.


Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Correct. So, if I do not endure to the end, I may have believed for a while, but I lost the "assurance of things hoped for" and "the convictions of things not seen". If I do not endure to the end, the faith I thought I had was not of God.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If we hold fast until the end, we were partakers of Christ. If we do not hold fast, we were never partakers of Christ.

pc_benz
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:15 PM
The trust is to be in God. In total honesty, it can be at first difficult for those who haven't known that relationship with Him but your advice is wise in that it is each persons responsibility to learn the Truth, Jesus, and in turn our faith, love and Trust will build. When total trust is reached, that is when a person reaches that point he or she can give all that they have been, all that they are and all that that will be to Him and in His control, then the Truth is easily seen.

"Trust is to be in God."

Well said!

It so concerns me that studies-surveys show about 80% of Christians only read their Bibles once a week, and that is most likely on Sundays.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:33 PM
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

You explain to me how Peter can make this 'statement' under the influence of the Holy Ghost.. and not 'know' he is born again or the beloved he is writing to?

If Peter did not 'know' he was born again... then how could he write about it? or tell other 'brethern' that they were 'born of God' born of the incorruptible seed and not corruptible...

I strongly and I mean strongly disagree with your statement..

That 'one' cannot know one is born again....

Its almost to the point that if one doesnt know one is born again.. your basing your faith and condition on works... am I working enough? have I done enough good to warrant God's favor? your salvation is conditional on your works or your ability to do good... never believing your born again...

for it is Grace by whicy ye are saved.. not works...

His Spirit 'bears witness' with our 'spirit' that we are His children..

One cannot be a child of God and 'not be born again'..

If you are Truly Born from Above.. then you are His child.. and His Spirit will bear witness to that.. does the Spirit 'leave you in limbo' when it bears witness... does it play hide and seek and leave you in the dark as to whether your His child and born again?

the Scripture says.. it 'bears witness'. with our spirit..

now thats not somebody who plays hide and seek with you..

but it 'bears witness'... to your spirit..

symmartyreō

1) to bear witness with, bear joint witness

If the Holy Ghost is 'bearing witness' to your spirit that you are His child then He will reveal this to you and He'll reveal that you are 'born again'...
for 'one' cannot be His child thru the witness of the Holy Ghost with our spirit and 'not be born again'.or 'know' one is born again.......

To me it sounds like 'salvation' has been made conditional based on works...

Salvation belongs to God alone.. and He will bear witness to you that you are Born Again..and You are His child.. for He is the one that 'drew you in' to Himself thru the Father and Saved you....

and how do we 'know' the Spirit of God is present? by the 'confession' of Jesus coming in the flesh.. God manifesting Himself in the flesh.. which is the mystery of Godliness

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:46 PM
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

You explain to me how Peter can make this 'statement' under the influence of the Holy Ghost.. and not 'know' he is born again or the beloved he is writing to?

If Peter did not 'know' he was born again... then how could he write about it? or tell other 'brethern' that they were 'born of God' born of the incorruptible seed and not corruptible...


Who is Peter talking to? To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

All who have been chosen are God's elect. All who are God's elect are born again.



I strongly and I mean strongly disagree with your statement..

That 'one' cannot know one is born again....


No. You can't. How could you possibly disagree with me? No one else does. ;)


Its almost to the point that if one doesnt know one is born again.. your basing your faith and condition on works... am I working enough? have I done enough good to warrant God's favor? your salvation is conditional on your works or your ability to do good... never believing your born again...

Almost, but not quite. There are characteristics of the born again throughout the New Testament. Those works and enduring to the end and so forth are all in making your election sure. Working out your salvation with fear and trembling.

The saving work is still done by Christ. To be born again is not a choice you made, but the will of God alone.


His Spirit 'bears witness' with our 'spirit' that we are His children..

One cannot be a child of God and 'not be born again'..

If you are Truly Born from Above.. then you are His child.. and His Spirit will bear witness to that.. does the Spirit 'leave you in limbo' when it bears witness... does it play hide and seek and leave you in the dark as to whether your His child and born again?

Did those who had faith and fell away believe the Spirit told them they were born again?


1) to bear witness with, bear joint witness

If the Holy Ghost is 'bearing witness' to your spirit that you are His child then He will reveal this to you and He'll reveal that you are 'born again'...
for 'one' cannot be His child thru the witness of the Holy Ghost with our spirit and 'not be born again'.or 'know' one is born again.......

To me it sounds like 'salvation' has been made conditional based on works...

Salvation belongs to God alone.. and He will bear witness to you that you are Born Again..and You are His child.. for He is the one that 'drew you in' to Himself thru the Father and Saved you....

and how do we 'know' the Spirit of God is present? by the 'confession' of Jesus coming in the flesh.. God manifesting Himself in the flesh.. which is the mystery of Godliness

Do you think those who believed for a while and then fell away did not confess Jesus came in the flesh?

Yet, they still fell away.

Those who fell away believed, thought they were "drawn" to Christ by God, and confessed Christ as coming in the flesh. They even believed that they had the Holy SPirit, a deposit guaranteeing what is to come, yet, they fell away.

They were wrong in believing they were born again.
Why? Because they did not endure to the end?
Why? Because they were not born again.

Everyone who is born again will endure to the end.
Everyone who endures to the end is born again.
Sounds circular, but still true.

Anyone who does not endure to the end was not born again.
Anyone who is not born again will not endure to the end.
Sounds circular, but still true.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:52 PM
Correct. So, if I do not endure to the end, I may have believed for a while, but I lost the "assurance of things hoped for" and "the convictions of things not seen". If I do not endure to the end, the faith I thought I had was not of God.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

If we hold fast until the end, we were partakers of Christ. If we do not hold fast, we were never partakers of Christ.

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father"

This 'remain in you' cannot mean 'to endure to the end', because it says that if it remain in you, you shall continue in the Son and in the Father.

1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Note the word 'shall'
Not, you must, or ought to.

Again I bring up the parable of the sower, the ground that bare fruit, was the one who received the word and understood.
If it is received and understood, then it will hold fast, take root and bare fruit.
The one who recieve's and understand's will bare fruit. No 'if's or but's.

If you are baring fruit, The fruit of the Spirit is love;

1Co 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind; love does not envy; love does not boast, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave disgracefully, does not seek its own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

1Co 13:8a Love never fails.

Yukerboy
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:25 AM
1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father"

This 'remain in you' cannot mean 'to endure to the end', because it says that if it remain in you, you shall continue in the Son and in the Father.

1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Note the word 'shall'
Not, you must, or ought to.

Again I bring up the parable of the sower, the ground that bare fruit, was the one who received the word and understood.
If it is received and understood, then it will hold fast, take root and bare fruit.
The one who recieve's and understand's will bare fruit. No 'if's or but's.

If you are baring fruit, The fruit of the Spirit is love;

1Co 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind; love does not envy; love does not boast, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave disgracefully, does not seek its own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

1Co 13:8a Love never fails.


That's exactly what I'm saying. If you have it, you can't lose it. If you don't have it, you never had it. You can believe you have it and not.

If you are born again, you will endure to the end. If you do not endure to the end, you were never born again.

My heart's Desire
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:15 AM
If we do not know if we are born again, how do we know whether we are children of God or children of the devil, with all the scriptures that verify/ identify those that are children of God and those that are not?

Who is our father?

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Interesting question considering we still have to take it all by faith, believing what the Word tells us to believe and to know it is true.
Just as the story went, he didn't understand how someone could be born again but of course he was looking at it in the natural fleshly way thinking someone had to be physically born all over again the same way as he was at the beginning. But of course, Christ meant it in a spiritual way.
If one comes to Christ for salvation, one has to take HIS word for it that they've been born again, by the Spirit, because the Word says so. (faith)

Denny606
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:09 AM
I know for me and me alone ,do you want to know how I know, I was there.

crystalbrite
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:59 AM
I know for me and me alone ,do you want to know how I know, I was there.

:yes: I am very interested! I saw the abyss. Yes, the real abyss not the movie. :lol:

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:39 AM
Hi Yukerboy,

With regards to your statement;

I do not deny the power of the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit is a guarantee you are born again and will endure to the end.

The Holy Spirit is a our gaurantee that we are born again however in order for us to endure to the end we must follow the Spirit until the end.

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

We must live the life as one that is following the Spirit, and believe by faith that we truly are born again. If not, how can we stand if we are doubtful as to who we are, or where we stand with God?

God bless!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:55 AM
Interesting question considering we still have to take it all by faith, believing what the Word tells us to believe and to know it is true.
Just as the story went, he didn't understand how someone could be born again but of course he was looking at it in the natural fleshly way thinking someone had to be physically born all over again the same way as he was at the beginning. But of course, Christ meant it in a spiritual way.
If one comes to Christ for salvation, one has to take HIS word for it that they've been born again, by the Spirit, because the Word says so. (faith)

Thanks My hearts Desire,

So we must have faith without doubting that through the Spirit we are born again, with regards to the following?

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Jas 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

We must know where we stand.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:58 AM
That's exactly what I'm saying. If you have it, you can't lose it. If you don't have it, you never had it. You can believe you have it and not.

If you are born again, you will endure to the end. If you do not endure to the end, you were never born again.

Have you ever doubted?

Has your faith ever wavered in times of distress?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:06 PM
Have you ever doubted?

Has your faith ever wavered in times of distress?

Firstfruits

Of course, but I never lost faith.

Thomas1621
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:18 PM
Of course, but I never lost faith.

Your human.... perhaps it was HankZ who said he was born again and not you afterall.... Sorry if I was mistaken on that.

anyway, a person can be born again and fall to sin. We must never underestimate the power of evil but again the power of evil can not sustain itself against the forgiveness of God to those who seek forgiveness... God Himself can make us a guarantee but we can not make one to Him.

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:27 PM
Of course, but I never lost faith.

Is it possible for a believer to lose faith with regards to the scripture?

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Jas 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Firstfruits

HankZ
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:35 PM
Your human.... perhaps it was HankZ who said he was born again and not you afterall.... Sorry if I was mistaken on that.

anyway, a person can be born again and WILL fall to sin. We must never underestimate the power of evil but again the power of evil can not sustain itself against the forgiveness of God to those who seek forgiveness... God Himself can make us a guarantee but we can not make one to Him.


I'm not sure why I have been named in this post. Yes, I am a born again Christian. I know 100% that I am born again and therefore a child of God's.

John 3:3-8 (New Living Translation)



3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
4 “What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?” 5 Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:3-8;&version=51;#fen-NLT-26093d)] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”


"you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit."

HankZ
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:46 PM
Is it possible for a believer to lose faith with regards to the scripture?

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Jas 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Firstfruits

Philippians 1:6 (New Living Translation)

6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Thomas1621
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:37 PM
I'm not sure why I have been named in this post. Yes, I am a born again Christian. I know 100% that I am born again and therefore a child of God's.

Hankz, I had asked Yukerboy if it was he who said he was born again but I recalled it was you, thats all that was to the mention of your name.

John 3:3-8 (New Living Translation)



3 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
4 “What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?” 5 Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203:3-8;&version=51;#fen-NLT-26093d)] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”


"you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit."

Now which translation is closer to the true Latin Vulgate Hankz? the one you offered above? or the one below:

New American bible
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RH) from above." 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I told you, 'You must be born from above.' 8 The wind 4 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RI) blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Old Latin Vulgate
3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
5 "Unless a man be born again"... By these words our Savior hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.
6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. 7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again. 8 The Spirit breatheth where he will; and thou hearest his voice, but thou knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Thomas1621
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:47 PM
Philippians 1:6 (New Living Translation)

6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Philippians 1:27
12 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P10F.HTM#$4MO) "Only, conduct yourselves in a way worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that, whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear news of you, that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind struggling together for the faith of the gospel..."

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:36 PM
Philippians 1:6 (New Living Translation)

6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

The question is, is it possible for a believer to lose their faith, not if God will keep his side of the bargain?

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Jas 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Mt 6:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Mt 8:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Mt 14:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
Mt 14:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Mt 16:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

2 Tim 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Wiil we all believers stand?

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:20 PM
There is an old expression that God does not put more on us than we can bear. To this there is a truth in that He does not put it on us. But God knows our weak humanity and knows well the adversary we are often confronted with. God gives us the strength to fight back without removing the free will to choose but we must never forget that the very adversary who wishes us to fall is more powerful than us although not as powerful as God.
We can succumb to the treachery of Satan (this always by choice but not always of desire) at times but once our failure realized and we become repentant of the fall, God is there to accept us. Would God refuse the grace of the Holy Spirit knowing our sincerity and desire to remain in His light? No. Not a God as Loving and Forgiving and Merciful as we know Him to be. Not a God who would offer His only, begotten Son for our salvation. Can we guarantee we will not weaken during this life? Not if we are honest. But once aware of our failures and sincerely repentant of them would God extend His mercy and forgiveness? This is what we must never take for granted. It is always a gift and never something we are due.

Firstfruits
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:43 PM
There is an old expression that God does not put more on us than we can bear. To this there is a truth in that He does not put it on us. But God knows our weak humanity and knows well the adversary we are often confronted with. God gives us the strength to fight back without removing the free will to choose but we must never forget that the very adversary who wishes us to fall is more powerful than us although not as powerful as God.
We can succumb to the treachery of Satan (this always by choice but not always of desire) at times but once our failure realized and we become repentant of the fall, God is there to accept us. Would God refuse the grace of the Holy Spirit knowing our sincerity and desire to remain in His light? No. Not a God as Loving and Forgiving and Merciful as we know Him to be. Not a God who would offer His only, begotten Son for our salvation. Can we guarantee we will not weaken during this life? Not if we are honest. But once aware of our failures and sincerely repentant of them would God extend His mercy and forgiveness? This is what we must never take for granted. It is always a gift and never something we are due.


By being born again we must be aware. We must know ourselves that we are truly born again. We must know who we follow.

Mt 24:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Lk 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 24th 2009, 03:19 PM
By being born again we must be aware. We must know ourselves that we are truly born again. We must know who we follow.

Mt 24:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Lk 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Yes, just as we must be aware we are choosing to sin in order for it to be a sin, the free will is never taken from us.

jrepp
Jan 24th 2009, 03:53 PM
Well, I always thought that we are born children of sin, and dont become children of satan until we reject the Lord....just my 2 cents worth...

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 03:59 PM
Your human.... perhaps it was HankZ who said he was born again and not you afterall.... Sorry if I was mistaken on that.

anyway, a person can be born again and fall to sin. We must never underestimate the power of evil but again the power of evil can not sustain itself against the forgiveness of God to those who seek forgiveness... God Himself can make us a guarantee but we can not make one to Him.


A person who is born again cannot sin, therefore how could he fall to it?

A person who is born of God will be kept blameless. This is a promise that no one who is born again negate.


Is it possible for a believer to lose faith with regards to the scripture?

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Jas 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Firstfruits

Yes, a believer can lose faith.

One who is born again cannot.

DeafPosttrib
Jan 24th 2009, 04:53 PM
Yukerboy said:


A person who is born again cannot sin, therefore how could he fall to it?

Your comment reminds of 1 John 3:9 says, "Whoseover is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

I have read throughout this thread debate about "born again". I consider this thread is the issue about unconditional eternal security salvation vs. conditional eternal security salvation.

Early in my Christian life back in early 1990's. I used to believe in unconditional eternal security salvation-so called, 'Once Saved Always Saved'. Because I attended Baptist church. Baptist teaching unconditonal eternal security salvation doctrine. That why I believed in Baptist's doctrine. Now, I am no longer believe in unconditional eternal security salvation doctrine. Because I have seen many misinterpretings within Baptist's doctrine on salvation. Baptist is strongly teaching of OSAS.

In year 2002, I left OSAS camp, now believing in conditional eternal security salvation doctrine by base upon Bible only.

Both Yokerboy and FirstFruits are correct that we must endure our faith unto the end then shall be saved according Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

But, Yokerboy says, when a person who is not endure, is not born in the first place.

Firstfruits says, when a person did born again, but later not endure, will not be saved at the end.

Yokerboy, your argue is not make sense.

Many OSAS people often saying many people who are sinning or not endure are not saved or born again at first place. That is the type of argument. I disagree with them.

Many people did actual born again at the first place, did have relationship with Jesus at the first place BEFORE fall away or quit being endure.

According to Luke 15:11-32, father owns two sons at the first place, before his younger son departs his father. Clearly this scene telling us, that a young son did actual "born again" at the first place before decide leave his father.

Keep in mind, Luke 15:32 tells us that, a young son was "dead" and "lost", that means during in the period, a young son were remain in the dark, if he continuing practical in sinful life by the way to his death(phyiscal), then he would have been remain "dead' and "lost" means is not saved at the end - Matt. 7:14; Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13. UNLESS, if a person who is currently backslidding during lifetime still have chance to repent again before too late(at death-physical), can be restoration again.

yes, a perosn can be re-born again as restoration relationship with God/Christ again by repent.

OR, if a person who was did actual born again at the beginning, and then later stop serve the Lord, turn into sinning life, and continue in dark life all the way to death(physical), then will be no longer remain born again and child of God, is lost in everlasting fire. Because that person is cut off from the Olive Tree (Romans 11:20-23).

Noiw let me tell you of 1 John 3:9. I understand this verse telling us that a person who is doing practical walk in the life, doing the right way, is a truly born again, because that person have seed in Christ-means that a person is abiding in Christ long as perosn is walking holy life WHILE as Christ is abide in person same time is a truly born again.

the first epistle of John talking about our practical walk in our life & our relationship with God in our daily life, then we can have truly assurance of our salvation, IF we do these the right way. OR, if we walk in the dark, then we could being doubt our assurance of our salvation.

Clearly, the Bible teaches us that our salvation is conditional, that we must meet: 1. Walk 2. Obedience 3. Do not sin. Then we will receive eternal life at the end (at our death-physical).

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 05:36 PM
The Prodigal son was dead and now alive. He was lost, but now he is found.

This is the case with ALL who are born again. They were dead, then alive, lost, then found.

I see this as sinner who is elected converts to born again.

You see this as a sinner converts to born again converts to sinner converts to bron again.

The prodigal son, however, had to be a child of God, for the father at the beginning is the same as the father in the end.

John 8:35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.

The son was always a child of God.

Not all sinners are.

HankZ
Jan 24th 2009, 08:23 PM
Philippians 1:27
12 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P10F.HTM#$4MO) "Only, conduct yourselves in a way worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that, whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear news of you, that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind struggling together for the faith of the gospel..."

Philippians 1:6 is a fact, 1:27 is advice.

HankZ
Jan 24th 2009, 08:25 PM
Now which translation is closer to the true Latin Vulgate Hankz? the one you offered above? or the one below:

New American bible
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RH) from above." 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I told you, 'You must be born from above.' 8 The wind 4 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RI) blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Old Latin Vulgate
3 Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
5 "Unless a man be born again"... By these words our Savior hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.
6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. 7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again. 8 The Spirit breatheth where he will; and thou hearest his voice, but thou knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.






I see no difference. They both clearly say that you cannot explain how someone is born of the spirit.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 08:26 PM
The Prodigal son was dead and now alive. He was lost, but now he is found.

This is the case with ALL who are born again. They were dead, then alive, lost, then found.

I see this as sinner who is elected converts to born again.

You see this as a sinner converts to born again converts to sinner converts to bron again.

The prodigal son, however, had to be a child of God, for the father at the beginning is the same as the father in the end.

John 8:35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.

The son was always a child of God.

Not all sinners are.
What do you think Jesus meant when relating that parable and he said... alive again? According to your passage he was dead and then became alive... yet Jesus specifically says "alive again."

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 08:27 PM
Philippians 1:6 is a fact, 1:27 is advice.
Advice? That is interesting... you say that why?

HankZ
Jan 24th 2009, 08:29 PM
The question is, is it possible for a believer to lose their faith, not if God will keep his side of the bargain?

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Jas 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Mt 6:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Mt 8:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Mt 14:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
Mt 14:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Mt 16:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

2 Tim 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Wiil we all believers stand?

Firstfruits

If God began a good work in you, there is no way you will lose your salvation. God is faithful to complete the good work He began in you. Even if you do not have strong faith.

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2009, 08:32 PM
A person who is born again cannot sin, therefore how could he fall to it?

A person who is born of God will be kept blameless. This is a promise that no one who is born again negate.



Yes, a believer can lose faith.

One who is born again cannot.

What is the difference between one that has put their faith in Christ and is a believer and one that is born again, according to the scriptures?

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Lk 8:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

Jn 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 3:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 6:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jn 6:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Those are just a few regarding believers, so where according to scripture is there a difference?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2009, 08:41 PM
If God began a good work in you, there is no way you will lose your salvation. God is faithful to complete the good work He began in you. Even if you do not have strong faith.

I would have to say that scripture states otherwise.

Jas 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Jas 4:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 11:32 PM
What do you think Jesus meant when relating that parable and he said... alive again? According to your passage he was dead and then became alive... yet Jesus specifically says "alive again."

I believe that coming alive again is just as one was alive before sin, sin came and they died, Christ came and they live.


What is the difference between one that has put their faith in Christ and is a believer and one that is born again, according to the scriptures?

The born again are children of God. Being a son of God forever. Those who believe but are not born again are those that fall away. They could never be a son of God for God's children are given eternal life.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 11:43 PM
I believe that coming alive again is just as one was alive before sin, sin came and they died, Christ came and they live.



The born again are children of God. Being a son of God forever. Those who believe but are not born again are those that fall away. They could never be a son of God for God's children are given eternal life.
Then what could they possibly fall away from? How does one never born again fall away from somewhere they have never been? I can't fall away from a chair unless I am actually sitting in the chair. Listen to what you are actually saying. ;)

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 11:46 PM
Then what could they possibly fall away from? How does one never born again fall away from somewhere they have never been? I can't fall away from a chair unless I am actually sitting in the chair. Listen to what you are actually saying. ;)

They fell away from the faith. They fell away from believing in Christ. When Christ talks of those that fall away, He states they believe for a while. Those who believe for a while were never born again. They couldn't have been for the born again are made to stand firm in Christ by God.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 11:57 PM
They fell away from the faith. They fell away from believing in Christ. When Christ talks of those that fall away, He states they believe for a while. Those who believe for a while were never born again. They couldn't have been for the born again are made to stand firm in Christ by God.
Scripture doesn't say they are MADE to endure. If they were MADE to endure then there would be absolutely no need to include the biblical injunction TO ENDURE to the end. It would be an automatic given... yet you won't find that implied in Scripture at all but instead they are told they MUST endure to the end.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 12:01 AM
Scripture doesn't say they are MADE to endure. If they were MADE to endure then there would be absolutely no need to include the biblical injunction TO ENDURE to the end. It would be an automatic given... yet you won't find that implied in Scripture at all but instead they are told they MUST endure to the end.

1 Corinthians 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

2 Corinthians 1:21
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

God makes the born again stand firm. Those who are made to stand firm will be saved. Those who think they stand firm, could fall....but only if they are not born again as God will not fail.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 12:40 AM
1 Corinthians 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

2 Corinthians 1:21
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

God makes the born again stand firm. Those who are made to stand firm will be saved. Those who think they stand firm, could fall....but only if they are not born again as God will not fail.
I am guessing that folks simply gain doctrine through a concordance now while searching for a verse and forget context... who needs that context thing anyway. :rolleyes:

Look at the context of the 2 Corinthians passage. What is Paul speaking of here?

2 Corinthians 1:15 *¶And in this confidence I intended at first to come to you, that you might twice receive a blessing;
16 *that is, to pass your way into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and by you to be helped on my journey to Judea.
17 *Therefore, I was not vacillating when I intended to do this, was I? Or that which I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yes, yes and no, no at the same time ?
18 *But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no.
19 *For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us -- by me and Silvanus and Timothy -- was not yes and no, but is yes in Him.
20 *For as many as may be the promises of God, in Him they are yes; wherefore also by Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.
21 *Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22 *who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
23 *¶But I call God as witness to my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.
24 *Not that we lord it over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 12:49 AM
I am guessing that folks simply gain doctrine through a concordance now while searching for a verse and forget context... who needs that context thing anyway. :rolleyes:

Look at the context of the 2 Corinthians passage. What is Paul speaking of here?

2 Corinthians 1:15 *¶And in this confidence I intended at first to come to you, that you might twice receive a blessing;
16 *that is, to pass your way into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and by you to be helped on my journey to Judea.
17 *Therefore, I was not vacillating when I intended to do this, was I? Or that which I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yes, yes and no, no at the same time ?
18 *But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no.
19 *For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us -- by me and Silvanus and Timothy -- was not yes and no, but is yes in Him.
20 *For as many as may be the promises of God, in Him they are yes; wherefore also by Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.
21 *Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
22 *who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
23 *¶But I call God as witness to my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.
24 *Not that we lord it over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm.

LOL, yes you really put it in context.

The born again are made to stand firm, anointed, sealed, given the Spirit as a pledge....stand firm in their faith, do not fall away....glad you cleared that up putting it in context.

:pp

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:11 AM
LOL, yes you really put it in context.

The born again are made to stand firm, anointed, sealed, given the Spirit as a pledge....stand firm in their faith, do not fall away....glad you cleared that up putting it in context.

:pp
Look again. Paul isn't speaking of the "born again." He is speaking of Timothy, Silvanus and Paul.

God established Timothy, Silvanus and Paul with the Corinthian folk in Christ and anointed (set them in that office) them. Paul, as is his pattern, simply establishes his authority with them.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:21 AM
Look again. Paul isn't speaking of the "born again." He is speaking of Timothy, Silvanus and Paul.

God established Timothy, Silvanus and Paul with the Corinthian folk in Christ and anointed (set them in that office) them. Paul, as is his pattern, simply establishes his authority with them.

I'm not sure I disagree with that...and I don't think you are disagreeing with me.

Paul, Timothy, Silvanus = born again.

The Corinthians may or may not be. Some were, some weren't.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:32 AM
I'm not sure I disagree with that...and I don't think you are disagreeing with me.

Paul, Timothy, Silvanus = born again.

The Corinthians may or may not be. Some were, some weren't.
Well now... you weren't using that passage that way at all. :lol: Come on now Yuke!

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:46 AM
Well now... you weren't using that passage that way at all. :lol: Come on now Yuke!


Seriously, Born again is born again, whether it be Paul, Timothy, Silvanus, Ken, Peter, Yuke, whoever......

The gifts and promises effective for Paul, Timothy, and the rest are just as effective to the rest of the born again.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:50 AM
Seriously, Born again is born again, whether it be Paul, Timothy, Silvanus, Ken, Peter, Yuke, whoever......

The gifts and promises effective for Paul, Timothy, and the rest are just as effective to the rest of the born again.
Nah... again, you are going outside of the context again. He wasn't talking about them in the way that you are trying to make it fit. You are trying to fit a square into a round hole Yuke. While you might hammer it enough to wedge it down in there and make it work for you... it still don't fit proper. ;)

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:59 AM
Nah... again, you are going outside of the context again. He wasn't talking about them in the way that you are trying to make it fit. You are trying to fit a square into a round hole Yuke. While you might hammer it enough to wedge it down in there and make it work for you... it still don't fit proper. ;)

What makes you different from Timothy? Are you both born again? Are you both learned from the Scriptures? Did not Paul teach you both? What makes Timothy appointed, sealed, established, standing firm and having the Spirit, but you not?

No, the promises made to Timothy, Paul, and Silvanus are effective to the born again.

God is not a respecter of persons.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 02:04 AM
What makes you different from Timothy? Are you both born again? Are you both learned from the Scriptures? Did not Paul teach you both? What makes Timothy appointed, sealed, established, standing firm and having the Spirit, but you not?

No, the promises made to Timothy, Paul, and Silvanus are effective to the born again.

God is not a respecter of persons.
And again... you are trying to make the square fit in the round hole. You have to force it into that text because that is not at all what Paul is saying. That means you are adding to it and in fact tweaking Scripture to fit what you want it to believe.

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2009, 10:59 AM
1 Corinthians 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

2 Corinthians 1:21
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

God makes the born again stand firm. Those who are made to stand firm will be saved. Those who think they stand firm, could fall....but only if they are not born again as God will not fail.

We agree that to stand firm means that we never stumble, never err from the truth and that we never sin.

Believing that you are born again, have you never stumbled, have you never erred from the truth have you never sinned, have you never been overtaken in a fault?

I ask in regards to what Jesus said in the following scripture.

Lk 17:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

By the way, I know the answer to one of them.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 02:50 PM
And again... you are trying to make the square fit in the round hole. You have to force it into that text because that is not at all what Paul is saying. That means you are adding to it and in fact tweaking Scripture to fit what you want it to believe.


I aksed you questions. Answer them and you will find that they are talking of themselves and themselves are the born again.


We agree that to stand firm means that we never stumble, never err from the truth and that we never sin.

Believing that you are born again, have you never stumbled, have you never erred from the truth have you never sinned, have you never been overtaken in a fault?

I ask in regards to what Jesus said in the following scripture.

Lk 17:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

By the way, I know the answer to one of them.

Firstfruits

Depends on your definition of stuble.

If I am born again, I sinned before I was born again, but not after.

If I am born again, I have erred. When you say change of belief, then that implies error was made.

If I am born again, I still have faults, but overtaken is such a strong word. Overtaken as to fall? No. Overtaken as to not mortifying the deeds of the flesh? Yes.

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2009, 07:52 PM
I aksed you questions. Answer them and you will find that they are talking of themselves and themselves are the born again.



Depends on your definition of stuble.

If I am born again, I sinned before I was born again, but not after.

If I am born again, I have erred. When you say change of belief, then that implies error was made.

If I am born again, I still have faults, but overtaken is such a strong word. Overtaken as to fall? No. Overtaken as to not mortifying the deeds of the flesh? Yes.

Are you saying that as you do not know whether or not you are born again, that if you should sin that you are not born again?

Have those in the following never been born again, where were they restored to? remembering that they were either born again or they were not.

Mt 18:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Gal 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Jas 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Jas 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Again, you cannot be saved and unsaved at the same time.

Firstfruits

HankZ
Jan 25th 2009, 08:30 PM
I would have to say that scripture states otherwise.

Jas 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Jas 4:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Philippians 1:5-7 (New American Standard Bible)



5in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.
6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. 7For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.


Scripture does not conflict with itself. Philipians 1:6 says that He who began a good work is faithful to complete it. If one could lose that salvation He would not be faithful to complete the good work He begin. I do not see anything in the verses you pointed out to show one could lose salvation.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 11:34 PM
Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Right. A brother tresspasses against thee, not God.


Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Restore him to what? To the church. To the faith. We cannot restore him to salvation for we cannot give the Spirit.


Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Amen.


Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Right a sinner who was not converted.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 03:38 AM
Advice? That is interesting... you say that why?

He is telling them how they should live as christians. Do you think it to be a command or an order?

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 10:25 AM
Philippians 1:5-7 (New American Standard Bible)



5in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.
6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. 7For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.


Scripture does not conflict with itself. Philipians 1:6 says that He who began a good work is faithful to complete it. If one could lose that salvation He would not be faithful to complete the good work He begin. I do not see anything in the verses you pointed out to show one could lose salvation.

It is not Gods ability to do his part, which is alraedy complete, it is our ability to follow as he leads.

Jn 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jn 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Jn 10:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Jn 10:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jn 12:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

1 Cor 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

What therefore does it mean to follow Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 11:18 AM
Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Right. A brother tresspasses against thee, not God.

So if I sin against my brother, it is not also against God?

Isn't all sin against our brother/sister?

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Restore him to what? To the church. To the faith. We cannot restore him to salvation for we cannot give the Spirit.

Considering that you can either be restored to sin or restored to God, would you restore someone to unrighteousness in the spirit of meekness?

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Right a sinner who was not converted.

In order to err from the truth, would mean that they had the truth and then turned from the truth.

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 26th 2009, 01:08 PM
Philippians 1:6 is a fact, 1:27 is advice.

Advice or instruction, the Gospel is the teaching of Christ, as such it is ALL instruction. And when does someone offer another advice but when a choice must be made. It serves no purpose to offer direction or advice to someone who can not choice willingly.

Thomas1621
Jan 26th 2009, 01:25 PM
If God began a good work in you, there is no way you will lose your salvation. God is faithful to complete the good work He began in you. Even if you do not have strong faith.


You keep referring to God’s end of things but ignore your or our side of the equation. What God would do as far as His covenant is not the issue , it is what man as the weak would or could choose to do in not keeping his end of the covenant that we speak of. We are not Gods and we are weak in human nature and no one can place the responsibility on God for what we may choose to do or not do.

Thomas1621
Jan 26th 2009, 01:33 PM
I believe that coming alive again is just as one was alive before sin, sin came and they died, Christ came and they live.



The born again are children of God. Being a son of God forever. Those who believe but are not born again are those that fall away. They could never be a son of God for God's children are given eternal life.

A person is "born again" through Baptism, some at an early age and some at a more mature age. Regardless they are all born again provided they are of sincere heart or innocent. Sin does not come it is committed knowingly. Unless you can say that Baptism does not provide the cleansing and make one a child of God, you can not dispute this without saying once they sin, they are never born again into the Holy Spirit in which case damned.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 02:00 PM
He is telling them how they should live as christians. Do you think it to be a command or an order?
Sure it was and Paul made it perfectly clear in his writings. Were one not to do those things then they were to be put out of the church and given over to satan so their souls might be saved. Gotta figure that this goes beyond just some subtle recommendation eh? If it was merely Paul's opinion... he made that clear as well.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 02:40 PM
Sure it was and Paul made it perfectly clear in his writings. Were one not to do those things then they were to be put out of the church and given over to satan so their souls might be saved. Gotta figure that this goes beyond just some subtle recommendation eh? If it was merely Paul's opinion... he made that clear as well.


Philippians 1:27 (New American Standard Bible)

27Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;


I think Paul is advising them. I would even say pleading with them to live good, clean, christian lives worthy of that name. I do not see the command in this verse.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 02:44 PM
Philippians 1:27 (New American Standard Bible)

27Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;


I think Paul is advising them. I would even say pleading with them to live good, clean, christian lives worthy of that name. I do not see the command in this verse.
I see. That one verse seals it for you eh?

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 02:49 PM
You keep referring to God’s end of things but ignore your or our side of the equation. What God would do as far as His covenant is not the issue , it is what man as the weak would or could choose to do in not keeping his end of the covenant that we speak of. We are not Gods and we are weak in human nature and no one can place the responsibility on God for what we may choose to do or not do.

Philippians 1:6 (New American Standard Bible)


6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

The bible keeps referring to God's promises. I am simply pointing them out.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 02:51 PM
I see. That one verse seals it for you eh?

Yes, that is the one verse we were talking about not the whole bible.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 02:52 PM
Philippians 1:6 (New American Standard Bible)


6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

The bible keeps referring to God's promises. I am simply pointing them out.
And you can go into most of the introduction parts of the letters and find such comments. Get into the doctrinal part of the letters... your case falls apart. Imagine that. ;)

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 02:57 PM
A person is "born again" through Baptism, some at an early age and some at a more mature age. Regardless they are all born again provided they are of sincere heart or innocent. Sin does not come it is committed knowingly. Unless you can say that Baptism does not provide the cleansing and make one a child of God, you can not dispute this without saying once they sin, they are never born again into the Holy Spirit in which case damned.


Can you show where an unwilling participant is "Baptized," into the kingdom of heaven or where baptism has any saving power? I am also currious as to where you read that one must be innocent or have a sincere heart before they are be saved.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 03:03 PM
Can you show where an unwilling participant is "Baptized," into the kingdom of heaven or where baptism has any saving power? I am also currious as to where you read that one must be innocent or have a sincere heart before they are be saved.

John 2:23 ¶Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs which He was doing.
24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,
25 and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man.

You also have...

John 8

30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.
31 ¶Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's offspring, and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, `You shall become free´?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 "And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 "If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
37 "I know that you are Abraham's offspring; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38 "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father."
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
48 ¶The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50 "But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
52 The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, `If anyone keeps My word, he shall never taste of death.´
53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be ?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, `He is our God´;
55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word.
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 03:05 PM
And you can go into most of the introduction parts of the letters and find such comments. Get into the doctrinal part of the letters... your case falls apart. Imagine that. ;)


Does this mean that the begining of the letter is less important than the middle or end of the letter? :hmm: Let's see it then.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 03:12 PM
John 2:23 ¶Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs which He was doing.
24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,
25 and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man.

You also have...

John 8

30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.
31 ¶Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's offspring, and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, `You shall become free´?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 "And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 "If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
37 "I know that you are Abraham's offspring; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38 "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father."
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
48 ¶The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50 "But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
52 The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, `If anyone keeps My word, he shall never taste of death.´
53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be ?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, `He is our God´;
55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word.
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.

:huh: :OFFT:

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 03:15 PM
Does this mean that the begining of the letter is less important than the middle or end of the letter? :hmm: Let's see it then.
The introductions are just that. Paul wasn't getting into the meat of doctrine in his introductions. His instruction and commands came in the meat of the letter.

Take for example...

2 Thessalonians 3:3 *But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
4 *And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command.

Now... Paul wasn't recommending that they do what he said... Paul was commanding them. Again... if they didn't and were continuously contentious... they were also instructed to put that person out.

2 Thessalonians 3:14 *And if anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him, so that he may be put to shame.

Recommendations do not require obedience. Commands do. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 03:16 PM
:huh: :OFFT:
You asked "where does it say one has to be sincere" did you not? Read those passages again and if you can't see the answer... ask someone for help.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 03:28 PM
The introductions are just that. Paul wasn't getting into the meat of doctrine in his introductions. His instruction and commands came in the meat of the letter.

Take for example...

2 Thessalonians 3:3 *But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
4 *And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command.

Now... Paul wasn't recommending that they do what he said... Paul was commanding them. Again... if they didn't and were continuously contentious... they were also instructed to put that person out.

2 Thessalonians 3:14 *And if anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him, so that he may be put to shame.

Recommendations do not require obedience. Commands do. ;)

You said that the doctine would fall apart in the middle. I do not see this happening. The verse the was being targetred is Philipians 1:6. Can you or can you not show that this statement that God is faithful to complete the work He started, is not doctrinally sound? I took this statement as fact and said that if God has begun a good work in you, He will be faithful and not take away your salvation. That is the doctrine you are refering to, is it not?

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 03:46 PM
You said that the doctine would fall apart in the middle. I do not see this happening. The verse the was being targetred is Philipians 1:6. Can you or can you not show that this statement that God is faithful to complete the work He started, is not doctrinally sound? I took this statement as fact and said that if God has begun a good work in you, He will be faithful and not take away your salvation. That is the doctrine you are refering to, is it not?
Actually we are discussing "being born again." ;)

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 03:53 PM
I am. That is what Philipians 1:6 was about. If God has begun a good work in us and if the scripture is correct that He is faithful to complete that work, then we are born again.

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 04:07 PM
Philippians 1:27 (New American Standard Bible)

27Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;


I think Paul is advising them. I would even say pleading with them to live good, clean, christian lives worthy of that name. I do not see the command in this verse.

What is the manner that we should conduct ourselves that is worthy of the Gospel of Christ?

How do we strive for the faith of the Gospel?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 04:11 PM
Philippians 1:6 (New American Standard Bible)


6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

The bible keeps referring to God's promises. I am simply pointing them out.

It is gauranteed that God keeps his promises both to those that keep his will and those that do not keep his will. If we therefore do not endure until the end what promises of God should we expect?

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 04:29 PM
I am. That is what Philipians 1:6 was about. If God has begun a good work in us and if the scripture is correct that He is faithful to complete that work, then we are born again.
He is always faithful... what about man?

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 04:41 PM
He is always faithful... what about man?

I believe that what is not being taken into account is that although God is faithful, man may not be.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 04:47 PM
I believe that what is not being taken into account is that although God is faithful, man may not be.

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Sure but that is because they believe that man can be unfaithful and God will look past that and they'll be okay. That is deception in pure form.

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 04:59 PM
Sure but that is because they believe that man can be unfaithful and God will look past that and they'll be okay. That is deception in pure form.

God is aware whether we are faithful or unfaithful;

Acts 17:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Let us also endevour to also be aware, so that we are not caught unawares when the end comes.

Lk 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Lk 21:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 05:11 PM
He is always faithful... what about man?

Man is man. Fallen and sinful though he is, God's grace is sufficient.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 05:35 PM
Man is man. Fallen and sinful though he is, God's grace is sufficient.
If you are a sinful man then you aren't a man free from sin. If you aren't free... then sin is still your master and not righteousness and if that is the case... not a good thing. ;)

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 06:05 PM
If you are a sinful man then you aren't a man free from sin. If you aren't free... then sin is still your master and not righteousness and if that is the case... not a good thing. ;)

Then how do you explain 1 John 1:8-10?
1 John 1:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)



8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.



What is with the smiling winking face? You make a claim as if I am headed to hell and somehow find it humorous?

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 06:11 PM
Then how do you explain 1 John 1:8-10?
1 John 1:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)



8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.



What is with the smiling winking face? You make a claim as if I am headed to hell and somehow find it humorous?
I don't have to explain it... John did that just fine. Why did John tell us those things?

1 John 2:1 *My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 06:16 PM
I don't have to explain it... John did that just fine. Why did John tell us those things?

1 John 2:1 *My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Originally Posted by ProjectPeter http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1959167#post1959167)
If you are a sinful man then you aren't a man free from sin. If you aren't free... then sin is still your master and not righteousness and if that is the case... not a good thing.

Your posts are not consistent.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by ProjectPeter http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1959167#post1959167)
If you are a sinful man then you aren't a man free from sin. If you aren't free... then sin is still your master and not righteousness and if that is the case... not a good thing.

Your posts are not consistent.
Uh... okie dokie. Where is my inconsistency?

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 06:25 PM
Uh... okie dokie. Where is my inconsistency?

I am sorry if I said something that sparked this arguement we seem to be having. I will no longer continue to converse in this manner. It is not doing any good and seems to be counter productive.
God bless you brother,
HankZ

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 06:26 PM
I am sorry if I said something that sparked this arguement we seem to be having. I will no longer continue to converse in this manner. It is not doing any good and seems to be counter productive.
God bless you brother,
HankZ
You said I was inconsistent and I'm curious as to where that was... figure you either read something wrong or was just being cantankerous. ;)

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 06:33 PM
You said I was inconsistent and I'm curious as to where that was... figure you either read something wrong or was just being cantankerous. ;)

You say that if you are a sinful man, you are in trouble, but then say that if you are a sinful man, you have Jesus to advocate on your behalf. That, my friend, is inconsistency.

The addition of the contankerous part is very helpful.

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 07:29 PM
Man is man. Fallen and sinful though he is, God's grace is sufficient.

So as a man are you still sinful, meaning that you are not born again? or are you walking and living in the Spirit and therefore not fulfilling the lusts/works of the flesh as men do?

Are we flesh or spirit?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 08:28 PM
Born again does not mean you are now sin free and now you can sit arround singing kum ba ya, my Lord, kum by ya! It means being free from sins control over our life.

If sin has no control over your life, are you not therefore free from sin?

What does it mean to be born again?

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Jan 26th 2009, 08:44 PM
Born again does not mean you are now sin free and now you can sit arround singing kum ba ya, my Lord, kum by ya!its


Why can we not sing that song anymore? :spin:

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 08:46 PM
Why can we not sing that song anymore? :spin:


Let's get a camp fire going first.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 08:48 PM
Born again does not mean you are now sin free and now you can sit arround singing kum ba ya, my Lord, kum by ya! It means being free from sins control over our life.

If sin has no control over your life, are you not therefore free from sin?

What does it mean to be born again?

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Firstfruits

Galatians 5:16-18 (New Living Translation)

16 So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions. 18 But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.



1 John 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&verse=1&version=51&context=verse)
My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 10:01 PM
A person is "born again" through Baptism, some at an early age and some at a more mature age. Regardless they are all born again provided they are of sincere heart or innocent. Sin does not come it is committed knowingly. Unless you can say that Baptism does not provide the cleansing and make one a child of God, you can not dispute this without saying once they sin, they are never born again into the Holy Spirit in which case damned.


A person is born again through baptism of the Holy Spirit, agreed.

Sin came to all men, don't kid yourself. It was God who bounded all men over to sin.

I don't understand the last part. I can say that once they are baptized with the Holy Spirit, they cannot sin.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 10:56 PM
You say that if you are a sinful man, you are in trouble, but then say that if you are a sinful man, you have Jesus to advocate on your behalf. That, my friend, is inconsistency.

The addition of the contankerous part is very helpful.Uh... I didn't say that. That was one of them there Bible passages in 1 John. ;)

And the point of the passage was that John was telling us this so we didn't sin but IF (meaning it should be more a rarity than the norm for sure) we did then we had an advocate with the Father. If that is "inconsistent" to you then check out the meaning of the word "inconsistent" at http://www.dictionary.com . It really isn't at all.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 11:13 PM
Uh... I didn't say that. That was one of them there Bible passages in 1 John. ;)

And the point of the passage was that John was telling us this so we didn't sin but IF (meaning it should be more a rarity than the norm for sure) we did then we had an advocate with the Father. If that is "inconsistent" to you then check out the meaning of the word "inconsistent" at http://www.dictionary.com . It really isn't at all.

Could you give reference to the bible passage in 1 John that refers to if you sin then sin is your master? I don't seem to find that one.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 11:17 PM
Could you give reference to the bible passage in 1 John that refers to if you sin then sin is your master? I don't seem to find that one.
You can begin here.

Romans 6:12 *¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13 *and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 *For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.
15 *¶What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 *Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 *But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 *and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 *I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 *For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 *Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 *But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 *For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

shepherdsword
Jan 26th 2009, 11:19 PM
There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again.

1 John 14:
If we love our Christian brothers and sisters, it proves that we have passed from death to eternal life. But a person who has no love is still dead.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 11:47 PM
You can begin here.

Romans 6:12 *¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13 *and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 *For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.
15 *¶What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 *Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 *But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 *and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 *I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 *For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 *Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 *But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 *For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


This is Romans which is not part of 1 John as you said. Even so, this does not support your earlier claim though.


If you are a sinful man then you aren't a man free from sin. If you aren't free... then sin is still your master and not righteousness and if that is the case... not a good thing. ;)

1 John 2:1 *My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

How does this pertain to a saved person who stills has sin in their life?
<H3>Romans 7:20-21 (New American Standard Bible)



20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

</H3>Is Paul not saved because he still had sin in his life?

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 11:55 PM
This is Romans which is not part of 1 John as you said. Even so, this does not support your earlier claim though.


If you are a sinful man then you aren't a man free from sin. If you aren't free... then sin is still your master and not righteousness and if that is the case... not a good thing. ;)

1 John 2:1 *My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

How does this pertain to a saved person who stills has sin in their life?
<H3>Romans 7:20-21 (New American Standard Bible)



20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

</H3>Is Paul not saved because he still had sin in his life?


Um... my comment about sin being your master had nothing to do with our discussion on 1 John in particular.

Romans 7 has nothing to do with Paul the Christian being a servant of sin... that was Paul speaking of when Paul was under the Law. Read it very carefully and you will see that fact. Notice at the beginning of that chapter where he lets them know... he is speaking to those that know the law. ;)

HankZ
Jan 27th 2009, 12:01 AM
Um... my comment about sin being your master had nothing to do with our discussion on 1 John in particular.

Romans 7 has nothing to do with Paul the Christian being a servant of sin... that was Paul speaking of when Paul was under the Law. Read it very carefully and you will see that fact. Notice at the beginning of that chapter where he lets them know... he is speaking to those that know the law. ;)

:giveup:I'm hopping off this merry go round. Have a wonderful evening.

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 12:09 AM
Alrighty then.

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2009, 11:04 AM
Galatians 5:16-18 (New Living Translation)

16 So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions. 18 But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.



1 John 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&verse=1&version=51&context=verse)
My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

Not sure if you are aware that this comment is not mine.

Born again does not mean you are now sin free and now you can sit arround singing kum ba ya, my Lord, kum by ya! It means being free from sins control over our life.

Just in case you were wondering.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 27th 2009, 01:21 PM
1 John 14:
If we love our Christian brothers and sisters, it proves that we have passed from death to eternal life. But a person who has no love is still dead.


I understand what you are saying.

Now, if I love my Christian brothers and sisters, yet I do not endure to the end, then I did not cross over from death to life.

Therefore, this love must be a love that also endures to the end.

shepherdsword
Jan 27th 2009, 01:29 PM
I understand what you are saying.

Now, if I love my Christian brothers and sisters, yet I do not endure to the end, then I did not cross over from death to life.

Therefore, this love must be a love that also endures to the end.

Yes..it must endure to the end. This is in context of enduring to the end:

Mt 24:
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Yukerboy
Jan 27th 2009, 01:51 PM
Yes..it must endure to the end. This is in context of enduring to the end:

Mt 24:
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Correct. So then my original statement that "There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again" stands true.

Loving our brethern in Christ to the end proves we have crossed from death to life, but not until then. We cannot know we will endure to the end, but we can believe we will.

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2009, 02:41 PM
Correct. So then my original statement that "There seems to be no Scriptural support for knowing if one knows he is born again" stands true.

Loving our brethern in Christ to the end proves we have crossed from death to life, but not until then. We cannot know we will endure to the end, but we can believe we will.

Are you saying that we cannot know whether or not we are loving as Christ has commanded?

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 27th 2009, 03:27 PM
Are you saying that we cannot know whether or not we are loving as Christ has commanded?

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Rom 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Firstfruits

I'm saying we can know if we are doing these things, but we cannot know if we have done them to the end. The ones who believed Christ and fell away still loved one another and fulfilled the law for a time.

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2009, 04:24 PM
I'm saying we can know if we are doing these things, but we cannot know if we have done them to the end. The ones who believed Christ and fell away still loved one another and fulfilled the law for a time.

Those that fell away must have done something contrary to Christs command, either by turning away from the faith, or doing ill to another.

Would you agree with that?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 27th 2009, 06:43 PM
Those that fell away must have done something contrary to Christs command, either by turning away from the faith, or doing ill to another.

Would you agree with that?

Firstfruits

No. you have included "done", such as based on works. Acted.

They did not act to fall away, They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Not by an act they have done, but by no longer believing.

The branches broken off the vine were broken off because of unbelief.

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2009, 07:49 PM
No. you have included "done", such as based on works. Acted.

They did not act to fall away, They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Not by an act they have done, but by no longer believing.

The branches broken off the vine were broken off because of unbelief.

Isn't sinning an act of doing something contrary to Christs commandment to love one another since that would cause ill to another.

Gal 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

All these are contrary to following the Spirit, all the are acts.

You cannot fall unless you do one of these acts.

Based on what is written I would like to ask again:

Those that fell away must have done something contrary to Christs command, either by turning away from the faith, or doing ill to another.

Would you agree with that?

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 27th 2009, 08:42 PM
No. you have included "done", such as based on works. Acted.

They did not act to fall away, They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Not by an act they have done, but by no longer believing.

The branches broken off the vine were broken off because of unbelief.

Luke CH: 15 4 "What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them would not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after the lost one until he finds it? 5 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/1K.HTM) And when he does find it, he sets it on his shoulders with great joy 6 and, upon his arrival home, he calls together his friends and neighbors and says to them, 'Rejoice with me because I have found my lost sheep.' 7 I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.
In order to loose something you must have had it to begin with. This refers to the joy god has in the reunion with one who has drifted away and returned. By your theory if you drift away you could never have been as one of His to begin with which is incorrect.

1 John CH: 1 5 Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, 2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4Z8) and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say, "We have fellowship with him," while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say, "We are without sin," we deceive ourselves, 3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4Z9) and the truth is not in us. 9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. 10 If we say, "We have not sinned," we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
When John refers to walking in the light and remaining in fellowship he refers to remaining strong in faith against the pitfall of sin but he is speaking to those who have already received the Holy spirit. When he refers to those who may claim to be without sin he refers to the brothers or those of the fellowship who believe they are no longer sinners because they have been saved and those are who deceive themselves.

HankZ
Jan 27th 2009, 09:49 PM
Not sure if you are aware that this comment is not mine.

Born again does not mean you are now sin free and now you can sit arround singing kum ba ya, my Lord, kum by ya! It means being free from sins control over our life.

Just in case you were wondering.

Firstfruits



That was my comment. I deleted it about a minute after I sent it. You must have hit reply as soon as it came up.

Yukerboy
Jan 27th 2009, 10:10 PM
Isn't sinning an act of doing something contrary to Christs commandment to love one another since that would cause ill to another.

Gal 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

All these are contrary to following the Spirit, all the are acts.

You cannot fall unless you do one of these acts.

Based on what is written I would like to ask again:

Those that fell away must have done something contrary to Christs command, either by turning away from the faith, or doing ill to another.

Would you agree with that?

Firstfruits

Those that fell away were broken off due to unbelief. They may never commit another sin, but unbelief is why they fell.

So to answer the question, if you wish to call it an act, fine. They did not endure to the end. They did not believe.


Luke CH: 15 4 "What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them would not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after the lost one until he finds it? 5 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/1K.HTM) And when he does find it, he sets it on his shoulders with great joy 6 and, upon his arrival home, he calls together his friends and neighbors and says to them, 'Rejoice with me because I have found my lost sheep.' 7 I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.
In order to loose something you must have had it to begin with. This refers to the joy god has in the reunion with one who has drifted away and returned. By your theory if you drift away you could never have been as one of His to begin with which is incorrect.


The sheep is still a sheep my friend.


1 John CH: 1 5 Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, 2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4Z8) and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say, "We have fellowship with him," while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say, "We are without sin," we deceive ourselves, 3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4Z9) and the truth is not in us. 9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. 10 If we say, "We have not sinned," we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
When John refers to walking in the light and remaining in fellowship he refers to remaining strong in faith against the pitfall of sin but he is speaking to those who have already received the Holy spirit. When he refers to those who may claim to be without sin he refers to the brothers or those of the fellowship who believe they are no longer sinners because they have been saved and those are who deceive themselves.

John is referring to the flesh which has sin abiding in it. While we no longer commit sin (according to 1 John also), we have sin abiding in us.

DIZZY
Jan 27th 2009, 11:53 PM
What is sin?
1. A bad action
2. A bad thought

You sin in deed and in thoughts. There is not one Christian after being saved through the blood of Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit who can say they are without sin.

1 John 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yes we long to fulfill the desires of the spirit and not the flesh, yet Satan put's a rug under us now and then and gives it a great pull. Down we come, but the thing is we get back up confess the sin and God is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.

1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are not perfect, but we are perfected in Him who died for us. The Lord stands before God as an advocate asking God to forgive us because we are covered by His blood.

1 John 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Romans 8:2-4
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

We no longer have sin indwelling us, but that doesn't mean that we don't slip up, we are not perfect yet.

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2009, 08:56 AM
Those that fell away were broken off due to unbelief. They may never commit another sin, but unbelief is why they fell.

So to answer the question, if you wish to call it an act, fine. They did not endure to the end. They did not believe.



The sheep is still a sheep my friend.



John is referring to the flesh which has sin abiding in it. While we no longer commit sin (according to 1 John also), we have sin abiding in us.

If our sins have been forgiven and Christ has made us clean from sin how can we say that we still have sin?

Jn 15:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Rom 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Col 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 10:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. (Unclean)

Acts 11:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. (Unclean)

If after we have been cleansed from our sins we go back to it then we must go to Christ to be cleansed/forgiven.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 28th 2009, 01:05 PM
What is sin?
1. A bad action
2. A bad thought

You sin in deed and in thoughts. There is not one Christian after being saved through the blood of Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit who can say they are without sin.


You are entitled to your opinion.

Jon says sin is transgression of the law. Those who are not under law cannot transgress the law.

As for saying we are without sin, sin abides in the flesh. No man can say they are without sin, lest they are no longer in the flesh.


1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yes we long to fulfill the desires of the spirit and not the flesh, yet Satan put's a rug under us now and then and gives it a great pull. Down we come, but the thing is we get back up confess the sin and God is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.

Christ's blood has washed us of all unrighteousness. The born again are white as snow and kept blameless to the end.


1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are not perfect, but we are perfected in Him who died for us. The Lord stands before God as an advocate asking God to forgive us because we are covered by His blood.


Is it the sinner that must confess or the righteous? Did Christ make the born again righteous or are they still sinners? Did John lie when he said one who is born again cannot sin?


1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Romans 8:2-4
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

We no longer have sin indwelling us, but that doesn't mean that we don't slip up, we are not perfect yet.

Then you are no longer flesh. Good on you!

I, however, am still in my fleshly body and as Paul said, it is no longer I who sins, but the sin living within my flesh that does it.

The Spirit is made perfect, but the flesh profits nothing.


If our sins have been forgiven and Christ has made us clean from sin how can we say that we still have sin?

Jn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. (Unclean)

Acts 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. (Unclean)

If after we have been cleansed from our sins we go back to it then we must go to Christ to be cleansed/forgiven.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Does the blood of Christ clean your flesh or your spirit?

Can what God made clean be made unclean?

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2009, 01:43 PM
You are entitled to your opinion.

Jon says sin is transgression of the law. Those who are not under law cannot transgress the law.

As for saying we are without sin, sin abides in the flesh. No man can say they are without sin, lest they are no longer in the flesh.



Christ's blood has washed us of all unrighteousness. The born again are white as snow and kept blameless to the end.



Is it the sinner that must confess or the righteous? Did Christ make the born again righteous or are they still sinners? Did John lie when he said one who is born again cannot sin?



Then you are no longer flesh. Good on you!

I, however, am still in my fleshly body and as Paul said, it is no longer I who sins, but the sin living within my flesh that does it.

The Spirit is made perfect, but the flesh profits nothing.



Does the blood of Christ clean your flesh or your spirit?

Can what God made clean be made unclean?

How would you address this scripture?

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Since it is written that we who have Gods spirit are not in the flesh can we say otherwise?

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 28th 2009, 03:47 PM
Those that fell away were broken off due to unbelief. They may never commit another sin, but unbelief is why they fell.

So to answer the question, if you wish to call it an act, fine. They did not endure to the end. They did not believe.



The sheep is still a sheep my friend.


John is referring to the flesh which has sin abiding in it. While we no longer commit sin (according to 1 John also), we have sin abiding in us.
The human still human but that doesn't change becoming lost and finding your way back.
also We are flesh until the end

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2009, 04:18 PM
The human still human but that doesn't change becoming lost and finding your way back.
also We are flesh until the end

Did you see the following?

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Since it is written that we who have Gods spirit are not in the flesh can we say otherwise?

Gal 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Are we not born again?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 28th 2009, 07:23 PM
How would you address this scripture?

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Since it is written that we who have Gods spirit are not in the flesh can we say otherwise?

Firstfruits


Paul says For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Was Paul in the flesh? No. But that didn't mean that his flesh wasn't him, or did not exist.

The born again are spiritual, but the flesh remains flesh. The born again is who we are, the flesh is what we are.

It's difficult to understand and difficult to explain. The flesh is not the born again anymore, yet the born again are not free from the flesh.


The human still human but that doesn't change becoming lost and finding your way back.
also We are flesh until the end

If you notice, the sheep doesn't find his way back. The shephard goes out and brings the sheep back.

Once a sheep always a sheep.

And I agree, we are flesh until the end.

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2009, 10:14 PM
Paul says For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Was Paul in the flesh? No. But that didn't mean that his flesh wasn't him, or did not exist.

The born again are spiritual, but the flesh remains flesh. The born again is who we are, the flesh is what we are.

It's difficult to understand and difficult to explain. The flesh is not the born again anymore, yet the born again are not free from the flesh.



If you notice, the sheep doesn't find his way back. The shephard goes out and brings the sheep back.

Once a sheep always a sheep.

And I agree, we are flesh until the end.

We are however not debtors to the flesh, to live as though we were still flesh and not spiritual.

Rom 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

The flesh and the spirit are two different lives.

Rom 8:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) There is Therefore now no condemnation to Them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after The flesh, but after The Spirit.

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 Cor 12:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 29th 2009, 08:57 AM
Are we still dead or are we alive/born again.

Rom 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Are we born again or are we still dead? we cannot be both, and if we do not know whether or not we are dead or alive we really have a problem.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 29th 2009, 01:32 PM
Did you see the following?

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Since it is written that we who have Gods spirit are not in the flesh can we say otherwise?

Gal 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Are we not born again?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I understand, but perhaps this will explain better the point I was trying to make;

Romans CH: 8
1 1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$47J) Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit. (To sin is the returning to life in the flesh for that falling which we are all to be aware and cautious of.) 6 The concern of the flesh is (spiritual) death, but the concern of the spirit is (eternal spiritual) life and peace. 7 For the concern of the flesh is hostility (sin being hostile to God's nature) toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. 12 Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. "

Historical Interpretation
1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#-47J) [1-13] After his warning in Romans 7 against the wrong route to fulfillment of the objective of holiness expressed in ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYU.HTM#NTLET.ROM.6.22) Romans 6:22, Paul points his addressees to the correct way. Through the redemptive work of Christ, Christians have been liberated from the terrible forces of sin and death. Holiness was impossible so long as the flesh (or our "old self"), that is, self-interested hostility toward God (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.7) Romans 8:7), frustrated the divine objectives expressed in the law. What is worse, sin used the law to break forth into all manner of lawlessness (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.8) Romans 8:8). All this is now changed. At the cross God broke the power of sin and pronounced sentence on it (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.3) Romans 8:3). Christians still retain the flesh, but it is alien to their new being, which is life in the spirit, namely the new self, governed by the holy Spirit. Under the direction of the holy Spirit Christians are able to fulfill the divine will that formerly found expression in the law (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.4) Romans 8:4). The same Spirit who enlivens Christians for holiness will also resurrect their bodies at the last day (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.11) Romans 8:11). Christian life is therefore the experience of a constant challenge to put to death the evil deeds of the body through life of the spirit (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.13) Romans 8:13).

Galatians CH: 6
1 1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4KM) Brothers, even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one in a gentle spirit, looking to yourself, so that you also may not be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. 2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4KN) 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deluding himself.

Historical interpretation
1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#-4KM) [1-10] The ethical exhortations begun at ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.1) Gal 5:1 continue with a variety of admonitions to the community (brothers: see the note on ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P101.HTM#NTLET.GAL.1.2) Gal 1:2). Nearly every sentence contains a separate item of practical advice; the faith and freedom of the gospel underlie each maxim. Tensions and temptation within communal life have previously been addressed in ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.15) Gal 5:15, ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.26) 26 and ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P106.HTM#NTLET.GAL.6.1) Gal 6:1 continues with a case in which a person is caught in some transgression such as those in ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.19) Gal 5:19-21; cf ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P102.HTM#NTLET.GAL.2.17) Gal 2:17.
2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#-4KN) [2] The law of Christ: cf ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.2) Romans 8:2; ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PZE.HTM#NTLET.1COR.9.21) 1 Cor 9:21; ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.14) Gal 5:14. The principle of love for others is meant. To bear one another's burdens is to "serve one another through love" (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.13) Gal 5:13).
3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#-4KO) [4-5] Self-examination is the cure for self-deception. Compare what you are with what you were before, and give the glory to God; cf ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYU.HTM#NTLET.ROM.6.19) Romans 6:19-22. Load: used elsewhere of a soldier's pack. Correcting one's own conduct avoids burdening others with it.

Yukerboy
Jan 29th 2009, 02:34 PM
We are however not debtors to the flesh, to live as though we were still flesh and not spiritual.

Rom 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

The flesh and the spirit are two different lives.

Rom 8:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) There is Therefore now no condemnation to Them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after The flesh, but after The Spirit.

Rom 8:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 Cor 12:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Now here, I agree with you completely.


Are we still dead or are we alive/born again.

Rom 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Are we born again or are we still dead? we cannot be both, and if we do not know whether or not we are dead or alive we really have a problem.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

There is a huge difference between believing and knowing.

I believe I am born again. You believe you are born again. We would like to say we know we are born again, but if we do not endure to the end, we then could not have been born again.

We can believe we are alive and still be dead. There are those that believed for a while, but did not endure. They never crossed from death to life. They believed they were born again, they thought they knew they were born again, but they were not.

Knowing means it is a fact. Believing means you think it is a fact. I think it is a fact I am born again. It is not a fact I am born again lest I endure to the end.

Firstfruits
Jan 29th 2009, 02:34 PM
I understand, but perhaps this will explain better the point I was trying to make;

Romans CH: 8
1 1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$47J) Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit. (To sin is the returning to life in the flesh for that falling which we are all to be aware and cautious of.) 6 The concern of the flesh is (spiritual) death, but the concern of the spirit is (eternal spiritual) life and peace. 7 For the concern of the flesh is hostility (sin being hostile to God's nature) toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. 12 Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. "

Historical Interpretation
1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#-47J) [1-13] After his warning in Romans 7 against the wrong route to fulfillment of the objective of holiness expressed in ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYU.HTM#NTLET.ROM.6.22) Romans 6:22, Paul points his addressees to the correct way. Through the redemptive work of Christ, Christians have been liberated from the terrible forces of sin and death. Holiness was impossible so long as the flesh (or our "old self"), that is, self-interested hostility toward God (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.7) Romans 8:7), frustrated the divine objectives expressed in the law. What is worse, sin used the law to break forth into all manner of lawlessness (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.8) Romans 8:8). All this is now changed. At the cross God broke the power of sin and pronounced sentence on it (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.3) Romans 8:3). Christians still retain the flesh, but it is alien to their new being, which is life in the spirit, namely the new self, governed by the holy Spirit. Under the direction of the holy Spirit Christians are able to fulfill the divine will that formerly found expression in the law (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.4) Romans 8:4). The same Spirit who enlivens Christians for holiness will also resurrect their bodies at the last day (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.11) Romans 8:11). Christian life is therefore the experience of a constant challenge to put to death the evil deeds of the body through life of the spirit (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.13) Romans 8:13).

Galatians CH: 6
1 1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4KM) Brothers, even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one in a gentle spirit, looking to yourself, so that you also may not be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. 2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4KN) 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deluding himself.

Historical interpretation
1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#-4KM) [1-10] The ethical exhortations begun at ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.1) Gal 5:1 continue with a variety of admonitions to the community (brothers: see the note on ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P101.HTM#NTLET.GAL.1.2) Gal 1:2). Nearly every sentence contains a separate item of practical advice; the faith and freedom of the gospel underlie each maxim. Tensions and temptation within communal life have previously been addressed in ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.15) Gal 5:15, ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.26) 26 and ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P106.HTM#NTLET.GAL.6.1) Gal 6:1 continues with a case in which a person is caught in some transgression such as those in ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.19) Gal 5:19-21; cf ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P102.HTM#NTLET.GAL.2.17) Gal 2:17.
2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#-4KN) [2] The law of Christ: cf ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYW.HTM#NTLET.ROM.8.2) Romans 8:2; ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PZE.HTM#NTLET.1COR.9.21) 1 Cor 9:21; ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.14) Gal 5:14. The principle of love for others is meant. To bear one another's burdens is to "serve one another through love" (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_P105.HTM#NTLET.GAL.5.13) Gal 5:13).
3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#-4KO) [4-5] Self-examination is the cure for self-deception. Compare what you are with what you were before, and give the glory to God; cf ⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PYU.HTM#NTLET.ROM.6.19) Romans 6:19-22. Load: used elsewhere of a soldier's pack. Correcting one's own conduct avoids burdening others with it.

Thanks Thomas1621,

That has been well explained and is understood and agreed.

So it does depend on how we live, therefore if we know how we are living we should know whether or not we are born again.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HankZ
Jan 29th 2009, 02:37 PM
The human still human but that doesn't change becoming lost and finding your way back.
also We are flesh until the end

Romans 8:37-39 (New King James Version)

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


It is impossible to be separated from God unless the thing which is separating you from God is not included in this list? The part that says, "Nor any other created thing," there is nothing that has not been created. Since everything has been created, except the Creator, we can safely trust that we who have been saved will never be separated from God.

Firstfruits
Jan 29th 2009, 02:44 PM
Romans 8:37-39 (New King James Version)

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


It is impossible to be separated from God unless the thing which is separating you from God is not included in this list? The part that says, "Nor any other created thing," there is nothing that has not been created. Since everything has been created, except the Creator, we can safely trust that we who have been saved will never be separated from God.

Thanks HankZ,

As long as those things mentioned do not overtake us and cause us to sin according to the flesh.

Endurance throughout is required.

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Jan 29th 2009, 04:08 PM
Romans 8:37-39 (New King James Version)

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


It is impossible to be separated from God unless the thing which is separating you from God is not included in this list? The part that says, "Nor any other created thing," there is nothing that has not been created. Since everything has been created, except the Creator, we can safely trust that we who have been saved will never be separated from God.

"...Separate us FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD." Nothing can separate us from God's love, a love that reaches so deeply that He sent us His only begotten Son. God loves the sinner but hates the sin. He never stops loving us.

Lets consider this. Two people love each other for many years in marriage and dedicate themselves to their relationship but something occurs and one commits an act that hurts the other so deeply that they become soured by it and out of a lack of clear thought commit an act them self that was wrong. Not necessarily out of spite but wrong none the less. Is it fair to say one or the other or both never loved the other or committed themselves, as they should have? Or can outside forces, diabolical forces sway a person a times to commit an act that they would not normally do and which they would without doubt be repentant for. Satan is not to be taken casually for he knows how to play with the weaknesses of humanity and there are no signs that point to his responsibility for what might happen in this pilgrimage.

Firstfruits
Jan 29th 2009, 07:49 PM
"...Separate us FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD." Nothing can separate us from God's love, a love that reaches so deeply that He sent us His only begotten Son. God loves the sinner but hates the sin. He never stops loving us.

Lets consider this. Two people love each other for many years in marriage and dedicate themselves to their relationship but something occurs and one commits an act that hurts the other so deeply that they become soured by it and out of a lack of clear thought commit an act them self that was wrong. Not necessarily out of spite but wrong none the less. Is it fair to say one or the other or both never loved the other or committed themselves, as they should have? Or can outside forces, diabolical forces sway a person a times to commit an act that they would not normally do and which they would without doubt be repentant for. Satan is not to be taken casually for he knows how to play with the weaknesses of humanity and there are no signs that point to his responsibility for what might happen in this pilgrimage.


Truly as Jesus has said that no sin shall enter into Heaven.

Rev 21:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 21:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Is 35:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=35&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

HankZ
Jan 30th 2009, 02:47 PM
"...Separate us FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD." Nothing can separate us from God's love, a love that reaches so deeply that He sent us His only begotten Son. God loves the sinner but hates the sin. He never stops loving us.

Lets consider this. Two people love each other for many years in marriage and dedicate themselves to their relationship but something occurs and one commits an act that hurts the other so deeply that they become soured by it and out of a lack of clear thought commit an act them self that was wrong. Not necessarily out of spite but wrong none the less. Is it fair to say one or the other or both never loved the other or committed themselves, as they should have? Or can outside forces, diabolical forces sway a person a times to commit an act that they would not normally do and which they would without doubt be repentant for. Satan is not to be taken casually for he knows how to play with the weaknesses of humanity and there are no signs that point to his responsibility for what might happen in this pilgrimage.


God is nothing like man and there is no comparison between the Love that God has for those who He has chose and a couple who has infidelity or other issues in their marriage.

Thomas1621
Jan 30th 2009, 02:56 PM
God is nothing like man and there is no comparison between the Love that God has for those who He has chose and a couple who has infidelity or other issues in their marriage.

Hankz, you misunderstood the point here. The example was not in comparison to God’s love, but man's. God's love is pure and cannot be severed. Man's love can be vulnerable to outside forces regardless of who that love is for. That is the point. Man can have sincere love but still be weak in humanity. To believe otherwise is deceiving to one’s self.

Let me ask you this… Do you believe in the purpose of the Lord’s prayer?

Firstfruits
Jan 30th 2009, 02:58 PM
God is nothing like man and there is no comparison between the Love that God has for those who He has chose and a couple who has infidelity or other issues in their marriage.

Do you agree that only those that do Gods will will be chosen?

Mt 20:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Mt 22:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If we therefore sin, which is against the will of God, will we be chosen?

Firstfruits

Mt 12:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

HankZ
Jan 30th 2009, 03:37 PM
Thanks HankZ,

As long as those things mentioned do not overtake us and cause us to sin according to the flesh.

Endurance throughout is required.

Firstfruits

That is why God has also given the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. He will never guide us into sin. If we do as Paul said and pray without ceasing, we will be more sensitive to the Holy Spirits leading. The Holy Spirit is given as a token of what we are to recieve in eternal life, so He is another sign that we are Born Again.

Firstfruits
Jan 30th 2009, 03:53 PM
That is why God has also given the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. He will never guide us into sin. If we do as Paul said and pray without ceasing, we will be more sensitive to the Holy Spirits leading. The Holy Spirit is given as a token of what we are to recieve in eternal life, so He is another sign that we are Born Again.

We have to follow the Spirit where the Spirit leads.

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Firstfruits

HankZ
Jan 30th 2009, 05:36 PM
Hankz, you misunderstood the point here. The example was not in comparison to God’s love, but man's. God's love is pure and cannot be severed. Man's love can be vulnerable to outside forces regardless of who that love is for. That is the point. Man can have sincere love but still be weak in humanity. To believe otherwise is deceiving to one’s self.

Let me ask you this… Do you believe in the purpose of the Lord’s prayer?



I do believe that Jesus gave us the Lord's prayer as a guide for us to follow in our own prayers. How does this pertain to being born again? :hmm:

HankZ
Jan 30th 2009, 05:45 PM
Do you agree that only those that do Gods will will be chosen?

I believe that only those who are chosen and are born again, are able to do the will of God.

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 10:18 AM
I believe that only those who are chosen and are born again, are able to do the will of God.

Thanks HankZ,

Would you therefore agree that if we are doing the will of God that we are born again with regards to what you have said?

This would mean that we should know whether or not we are doing Gods will and therefore know if we are born again.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Feb 2nd 2009, 02:40 PM
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

The will of God is for those who are born again to persevere. One cannot have known he was born again unless that one perseveres to the end.

God willing, I shall persevere to the end. God willing, I am born again.

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 02:45 PM
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

The will of God is for those who are born again to persevere. One cannot have known he was born again unless that one perseveres to the end.

God willing, I shall persevere to the end. God willing, I am born again.

Would you not say that we must know whether or not we are doing that which is righteous or unrighteous?

Firstfruits

HankZ
Feb 2nd 2009, 03:19 PM
Thanks HankZ,

Would you therefore agree that if we are doing the will of God that we are born again with regards to what you have said?

This would mean that we should know whether or not we are doing Gods will and therefore know if we are born again.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I do not agree, here is why;
Luke 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&verse=1&version=49&context=verse)
[ Jesus' Birth in Bethlehem ] Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.

Caesar Augustus did the will of God by calling all Jews to their home town in order that Jesus would be born in the town of David. The bible does not give any indication that Caesar Augustus wanted to do the will of God, but that God did His will through Caesar. This does not make Caesar born again. Not everyone who does God's will is born again, but everyone who is born again does God's will.

HankZ
Feb 2nd 2009, 03:41 PM
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

The will of God is for those who are born again to persevere. One cannot have known he was born again unless that one perseveres to the end.

God willing, I shall persevere to the end. God willing, I am born again.

2 Timothy 1:8-9 (New American Standard Bible)



8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,


Ephesians 2:8 (New American Standard Bible)


8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Timothy 4:18 (New American Standard Bible)


18The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.


According to these verses, Paul knew that he and Timothy were already saved. They had not endured to the end at this point. We can know God has granted us salvation while we are alive too.

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:08 PM
I do not agree, here is why;
Luke 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=2&verse=1&version=49&context=verse)
[ Jesus' Birth in Bethlehem ] Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.

Caesar Augustus did the will of God by calling all Jews to their home town in order that Jesus would be born in the town of David. The bible does not give any indication that Caesar Augustus wanted to do the will of God, but that God did His will through Caesar. This does not make Caesar born again. Not everyone who does God's will is born again, but everyone who is born again does God's will.

My question was in regards to Yukerboys statement; The will of God is for those who are born again to persevere. One cannot have known he was born again unless that one perseveres to the end.

Thanks,

God bless!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:12 PM
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

The will of God is for those who are born again to persevere. One cannot have known he was born again unless that one perseveres to the end.

God willing, I shall persevere to the end. God willing, I am born again.

If we are to live righteous lives according to the will of God, how can we do so if we do not know the difference between righteousness and unrighteousness?

Firstfruits

HankZ
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:58 PM
My question was in regards to Yukerboys statement; The will of God is for those who are born again to persevere. One cannot have known he was born again unless that one perseveres to the end.

Thanks,

God bless!

Firstfruits


Thanks HankZ,

Would you therefore agree that if we are doing the will of God that we are born again with regards to what you have said?

This would mean that we should know whether or not we are doing Gods will and therefore know if we are born again.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


I thought you directed this post to me.

Yukerboy
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:01 PM
2 Timothy 1:8-9 (New American Standard Bible)



8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,


Ephesians 2:8 (New American Standard Bible)


8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Timothy 4:18 (New American Standard Bible)


18The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.


According to these verses, Paul knew that he and Timothy were already saved. They had not endured to the end at this point. We can know God has granted us salvation while we are alive too.

True, yet Paul feared he could be disqualified. Paul was on course to be saved, but as for being saved, Paul believed he was yet could not know that he was.

Paul had no doubts he would persevere to the end. My point is, neither did those who fell away have any doubts they would also persevere, yet they did not. If you asked them, they would tell you they knew they were born again, yet still fell away. Since we know that those who are born again will never follow a stranger and cannot sin, then those who fell away were never born again.


If we are to live righteous lives according to the will of God, how can we do so if we do not know the difference between righteousness and unrighteousness?

We know the difference. The born again do the will of God, it is a characteristic of the born again. They can't not do the will of God, which is why they are no longer under law. Everything the born again does is righteous.

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:04 PM
I thought you directed this post to me.

Hi HankZ,

No I did not.:)

God bless you!

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:35 PM
True, yet Paul feared he could be disqualified. Paul was on course to be saved, but as for being saved, Paul believed he was yet could not know that he was.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

How can one that 'desires' to depart this planet.. while 'alive and abiding in the flesh'.... desire to depart and be with Christ..

'not 'know' he is born again or saved.....??????

How can one 'who desires' from his inner man.. to depart..

not know he is saved or born again?

If one does not 'know' he or she is saved.. then how can they 'desire' such a thing...

So Paul desired to depart and be with Christ..


yet he didn't 'know' he was saved or born again...:confused:confused

can one 'not' know they are saved and born again.. and yet have this desire? Where does this desire come from?:confused:confused

and Paul 'knew' that if he was do depart.. He would be in the presense of Christ...

so Paul 'knew' that the moment he died.. he would be in the Presense of Christ...

yet while he lived.. he didn't 'know' he was born again or saved... he woulndt know this until he persevered to the end... yet while he lived in the flesh.. he desired to depart and be with Christ.. so he must of 'knew' something... that prior to the end of perservering if he would depart he would be with Christ..

sorry yuke... I disagree with your yukerism...

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:48 PM
True, yet Paul feared he could be disqualified. Paul was on course to be saved, but as for being saved, Paul believed he was yet could not know that he was.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

How can one that 'desires' to depart this planet.. while 'alive and abiding in the flesh'.... desire to depart and be with Christ..

'not 'know' he is born again or saved.....??????

How can one 'who desires' from his inner man.. to depart..

not know he is saved or born again?

If one does not 'know' he or she is saved.. then how can they 'desire' such a thing...

So Paul desired to depart and be with Christ..


yet he didn't 'know' he was saved or born again...:confused:confused

can one 'not' know they are saved and born again.. and yet have this desire? Where does this desire come from?:confused:confused

and Paul 'knew' that if he was do depart.. He would be in the presense of Christ...

so Paul 'knew' that the moment he died.. he would be in the Presense of Christ...

yet while he lived.. he didn't 'know' he was born again or saved... he woulndt know this until he persevered to the end... yet while he lived in the flesh.. he desired to depart and be with Christ.. so he must of 'knew' something... that prior to the end of perservering if he would depart he would be with Christ..

sorry yuke... I disagree with your yukerism...

Truly we cannot believe or have faith that we are saved but not believe that we are born again, it would be a contradiction.

I am born of the spirit but I am not sure if I am born again. That is the doubt that we are not to have if we believe.

God bless TBD!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:57 PM
How can one that 'desires' to depart this planet.. while 'alive and abiding in the flesh'.... desire to depart and be with Christ..

'not 'know' he is born again or saved.....??????

How can one 'who desires' from his inner man.. to depart..

not know he is saved or born again?

If one does not 'know' he or she is saved.. then how can they 'desire' such a thing...

So Paul desired to depart and be with Christ..


yet he didn't 'know' he was saved or born again...

can one 'not' know they are saved and born again.. and yet have this desire? Where does this desire come from?

and Paul 'knew' that if he was do depart.. He would be in the presense of Christ...

so Paul 'knew' that the moment he died.. he would be in the Presense of Christ...

yet while he lived.. he didn't 'know' he was born again or saved... he woulndt know this until he persevered to the end... yet while he lived in the flesh.. he desired to depart and be with Christ.. so he must of 'knew' something... that prior to the end of perservering if he would depart he would be with Christ..

sorry yuke... I disagree with your yukerism...

You are allowed to disagree. That's part of the reason for the board, correct?

However, I desire to depart this planet. I know that if I do depart this planet right now, I am born again, for I would have endured to the end.

If I depart this planet in 10 years, there is no saying I will have endured. I plan to, I expect to, I believe I will. However, if my family crumbles around me and I go through countless trials and tribulations, would I endure? I believe I would, but perhaps not. If I do not, then I was never born again, for the born again will endure to the end.

Firstfruits
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:04 PM
You are allowed to disagree. That's part of the reason for the board, correct?

However, I desire to depart this planet. I know that if I do depart this planet right now, I am born again, for I would have endured to the end.

If I depart this planet in 10 years, there is no saying I will have endured. I plan to, I expect to, I believe I will. However, if my family crumbles around me and I go through countless trials and tribulations, would I endure? I believe I would, but perhaps not. If I do not, then I was never born again, for the born again will endure to the end.

If you believe that if you left this planet right now that you are born again, what therefore would you do that would make your statement uncertain in ten days time?

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:13 PM
I do believe that Jesus gave us the Lord's prayer as a guide for us to follow in our own prayers. How does this pertain to being born again? :hmm:

Its an ongoing venture. "Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us..." we pray for this forgiveness as we continue through this life in the words Jesus instructed us and it doesn't end with the gift of the Holy spirit.

Thomas1621
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:19 PM
I believe that only those who are chosen and are born again, are able to do the will of God.

In that Jesus said many will say Lord, Lord, He refers to those who will do His will as in what He asks but if not for the right reasons, reflecting the love of God, it will be baseless. Just as the Pharisee and the tax collector, the Pharisee spoke of all he performed but the reasons were not from the heart or for the love of others in Jesus.

HankZ
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:26 PM
Its an ongoing venture. "Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us..." we pray for this forgiveness as we continue through this life in the words Jesus instructed us and it doesn't end with the gift of the Holy spirit.

I think we are not on the same page. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is given to ALL believers at the moment of their belief? Do you believe there is a moment of belief or an on going learning process which may or may not lead to salvation?
Acts 2:38 (New American Standard Bible)


38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Thomas1621
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:32 PM
You are allowed to disagree. That's part of the reason for the board, correct?

However, I desire to depart this planet. I know that if I do depart this planet right now, I am born again, for I would have endured to the end.

If I depart this planet in 10 years, there is no saying I will have endured. I plan to, I expect to, I believe I will. However, if my family crumbles around me and I go through countless trials and tribulations, would I endure? I believe I would, but perhaps not. If I do not, then I was never born again, for the born again will endure to the end.
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.
Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.
1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.
Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).
Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.
Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.
2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.
Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.
Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.
1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.
2 Pet. 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.
James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.
1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.
John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).
John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.
Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).
2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.
1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.
1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).
Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).
1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory because of their own choosing.
1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God's sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.

HankZ
Feb 2nd 2009, 07:08 PM
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.
Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.
1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.
Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).
Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.
Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.
2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.
Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.
Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.
1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.
2 Pet. 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.
James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.
1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.
John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).
John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.
Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).
2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.
1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.
1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).
Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).
1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory because of their own choosing.
1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God's sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.

I did not try to insult you in the post, but it could be questionable. I am removing it and appolagizing for not taking more precaution in my post.

tantejess
Feb 2nd 2009, 07:21 PM
i have read the first page and the last of this thread. unbelievable how much can be said about a subject such as this one.

i must say i'm very thankful to be absolutely certain that Jesus' blood saved me and that it is by His grace that i can live with this certainty.

Yukerboy
Feb 2nd 2009, 08:42 PM
If you believe that if you left this planet right now that you are born again, what therefore would you do that would make your statement uncertain in ten days time?

Firstfruits

The question becomes do I think my faith is unshakable. I think it is unshakable, but I do not know it is unshakable. I think there is nothing that can happen which will cause me to lose faith, but I can't know that until it happens.

Let's go with the post-trib rapturist viewpoint for a minute.

If I'm here and my family is here during the tribulation and my family starves and all I need to do is take the mark of the beast to feed them, would I? I don't think I would. The fact is, I might. And if I do, I would not have endured to the end, though I believed and had faith that I was saved.


Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.


Call it what you will. I find no free will in the Bible, but I see a lot of God granting stuff to those He so chooses.


1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Those who are chosen through foreknowledge were chosen to obey. They were not chosen because they obey.


Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

Paul writes that those God foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Paul is writing about those who God has chosen to save.


1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Agreed!


Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Christ says that He will never blot out the names of the born again. Nothing in there about blotting names out that are currently but not ultimately justified. The elect are always justified.


Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.


Is grace a gift of God? Does God take away His gifts? Once again, we have no freewill. It is God who has bound all men to sin.


Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

We are not all God's children. Those who are born again are the children of God.


2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

God is forebearing to us (those who are born again). He wills that none (of the born again) should perish, but that all (of the born again) should come to repentance.


Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.

Did Christ love? Did Christ have freewill? "Let not my will, but your will be done." The will of the Father is that those God gives to Christ should be raised up in the last day.


Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.

I think you read a lot into this. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given only to the born again.


1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.

God wants all men to be saved.
God does not will all men to be saved.
Therefore, God's will and His desires are separate.
God willed that sacrifices be in the law.
God did not desire sacrifices.
Therefore, God's will and His desires are separate.


James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.


You will find many words in the Bible. Freewill is not one of them.
Those who sin were not "tempted by God". However, it is God who laid down the law to make the sin increase.


1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.

It is God who makes the born again stand firm, no doubt.


John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).

Whosoever believes are those God granted belief to.


John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.

Christ saves those God has given Him.


Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).

The free gift can be received by all men, if man had a choice to receive it. However, all, being dead in sins, cannot bring themselves to life. It is God who gives life.


1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.

Amen!


2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.

He died for all, that some (the elect) may live. The others remain dead in their sins.

I think you get the point...

Firstfruits
Feb 3rd 2009, 09:11 AM
The question becomes do I think my faith is unshakable. I think it is unshakable, but I do not know it is unshakable. I think there is nothing that can happen which will cause me to lose faith, but I can't know that until it happens.

Let's go with the post-trib rapturist viewpoint for a minute.

If I'm here and my family is here during the tribulation and my family starves and all I need to do is take the mark of the beast to feed them, would I? I don't think I would. The fact is, I might. And if I do, I would not have endured to the end, though I believed and had faith that I was saved.



Call it what you will. I find no free will in the Bible, but I see a lot of God granting stuff to those He so chooses.



Those who are chosen through foreknowledge were chosen to obey. They were not chosen because they obey.



Paul writes that those God foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Paul is writing about those who God has chosen to save.



Agreed!



Christ says that He will never blot out the names of the born again. Nothing in there about blotting names out that are currently but not ultimately justified. The elect are always justified.



Is grace a gift of God? Does God take away His gifts? Once again, we have no freewill. It is God who has bound all men to sin.



We are not all God's children. Those who are born again are the children of God.



God is forebearing to us (those who are born again). He wills that none (of the born again) should perish, but that all (of the born again) should come to repentance.



Did Christ love? Did Christ have freewill? "Let not my will, but your will be done." The will of the Father is that those God gives to Christ should be raised up in the last day.



I think you read a lot into this. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given only to the born again.



God wants all men to be saved.
God does not will all men to be saved.
Therefore, God's will and His desires are separate.
God willed that sacrifices be in the law.
God did not desire sacrifices.
Therefore, God's will and His desires are separate.



You will find many words in the Bible. Freewill is not one of them.
Those who sin were not "tempted by God". However, it is God who laid down the law to make the sin increase.



It is God who makes the born again stand firm, no doubt.



Whosoever believes are those God granted belief to.



Christ saves those God has given Him.



The free gift can be received by all men, if man had a choice to receive it. However, all, being dead in sins, cannot bring themselves to life. It is God who gives life.



Amen!



He died for all, that some (the elect) may live. The others remain dead in their sins.

I think you get the point...

Again you are allowing doubt and uncertainty control what you state that you believe;

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Jas 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

If as you say, you truly believe then let Christ be your guide;

Mt 21:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Doubt cannot move mountains.

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Feb 3rd 2009, 01:03 PM
I think we are not on the same page. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is given to ALL believers at the moment of their belief? Do you believe there is a moment of belief or an on going learning process which may or may not lead to salvation?
Acts 2:38 (New American Standard Bible)


38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


I believe the Holy Spirit is received when we are baptized and remain adjoined with Him provided we are sincere of heart and live according to God's teaching. But as the Scripture verses following point out, we are instructed we must remain strong and it is a struggle that goes on until the end. This is a teaching that is deeply rooted throughout scripture. We are saved through the blood of Christ and God never stops loving us however we have to persevere and notice how that perseverance is described as to the point of shedding blood if it be necessary.


Reading 1
Heb 12:1-4 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews12.htm#v1)

Brothers and sisters:
Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,
let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us
and persevere in running the race that lies before us
while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus,
the leader and perfecter of faith.
For the sake of the joy that lay before him
Jesus endured the cross, despising its shame,
and has taken his seat at the right of the throne of God.
Consider how he endured such opposition from sinners,
in order that you may not grow weary and lose heart.
In your struggle against sin
you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood.

Thomas1621
Feb 3rd 2009, 01:09 PM
I did not try to insult you in the post, but it could be questionable. I am removing it and appolagizing for not taking more precaution in my post.

No offense has been taken Hankz. I see you as a well meaning person and I realize you have a love of God. Our words to each other are a presentation of Thoughts and an exchange of scriptural interpretation that may lead to a deeper and perhaps more clear awareness.

Thomas1621
Feb 3rd 2009, 04:06 PM
Call it what you will. I find no free will in the Bible, but I see a lot of God granting stuff to those He so chooses....

Yukerboy Wrote: “Call it what you will. I find no free will in the Bible, but I see a lot of God granting stuff to those He so chooses.”

I don’t decide what to call it as you say, I accept it for what is is.
_____________________________

Yukerboy Wrote: “Those who are chosen through foreknowledge were chosen to obey. They were not chosen because they obey.”


1 PETER CH:1 1 1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4X0) “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen sojourners of the dispersion 2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4X1) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance. 3 3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4X2) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you 5 who by the power of God are safeguarded through faith, to a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the final time. 6 4 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$4X3) In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Although you have not seen him you love him; even though you do not see him now yet believe in him, you rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy, 9 as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls.”
This shows there is an effort involved and effort requires the will to act.
____________________________________
Yukerboy Wrote: “Paul writes that those God foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Paul is writing about those who God has chosen to save.”


Again I offer the following interpretation, not a personal interpretation;
"Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.
___________________________________
Yukerboy Wrote: “Christ says that He will never blot out the names of the born again. Nothing in there about blotting names out that are currently but not ultimately justified. The elect are always justified.”
Rev. 3:5 – “Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).”
He will never erase the victor (he who perseveres after repentance) Take it a step further and begin at verse one…
Rev. 3 1 1 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$527) "To the angel of the church in Sardis, 2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$528) write this: " 'The one who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars says this: "I know your works, that you have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent (referring to once being born of the Holy Spirit and returning to God through repentance). If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy.”
_____________________
Yukerboy Wrote : “Is grace a gift of God? Does God take away His gifts? Once again, we have no freewill. It is God who has bound all men to sin.”

God takes away nothing that He has given, but man can certainly perform an act or fail to perform in a manner that rejects what is given. You misinterpret what being bound to sin referred to. It referred to God’s acceptance of the gentiles who where at once pagan but became accepting of God and in accepting the gentiles He extended that acceptance through repentant hearts to the chosen people as well who also had fallen to sinfulness rather than ignore them and only accept the gentiles. He bound all men to sin to offer forgiveness to all equally. Your statement seems to imply God wanted man to be sinners when it is clear that was not His intention when He created us.
________________
Yukerboy Wrote: “We are not all God's children. Those who are born again are the children of God.”

Ezekiel CH 18 20 Only the one who sins shall die. The son shall not be charged with the guilt of his father, nor shall the father be charged with the guilt of his son. The virtuous man's virtue shall be his own, as the wicked man's wickedness shall be his own. 21 But if the wicked man turns away from all the sins he committed, if he keeps all my statutes and does what is right and just, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 None of the crimes he committed shall be remembered against him; he shall live because of the virtue he has practiced. 23 Do I indeed derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? says the Lord GOD. Do I not rather rejoice when he turns from his evil way that he may live? 24 And if the virtuous man turns from the path of virtue to do evil, the same kind of abominable things that the wicked man does, can he do this and still live? None of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered, because he has broken faith and committed sin; because of this, he shall die. 25 You say, "The LORD'S way is not fair!" Hear now, house of Israel: Is it my way that is unfair, or rather, are not your ways unfair? 26 When a virtuous man turns away from virtue to commit iniquity, and dies, it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. 27 But if a wicked man, turning from the wickedness he has committed, does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life; 28 since he has turned away from all the sins which he committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 And yet the house of Israel says, "The LORD'S way is not fair!" Is it my way that is not fair, house of Israel, or rather, is it not that your ways are not fair? 30 Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Turn and be converted from all your crimes, that they may be no cause of guilt for you. 31 Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, says the Lord GOD. Return and live!” God does not refer to those “Born Again” as His children and no one else. He refers to all equally until sin threatens their salvation. He is clear also that repentance will bring us back to the gift of salvation.
Jesus Himself referred to us as Children when He proclaimed how hard it would be for someone of wealth (earthly priorities) to enter Heaven. He did not say how hard it would be for those who were not children of God to get to heaven but referenced. It has to do with devotion and priorities.

Mark CH 10 23 4 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3FI) Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" 24 The disciples were amazed at his words. So Jesus again said to them in reply, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to pass through (the) eye of (a) needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." 26 They were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves, "Then who can be saved?" 27 Jesus looked at them and said, "For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God."
____________________
Yukerboy Wrote: ‘God is forebearing to us (those who are born again). He wills that none (of the born again) should perish, but that all (of the born again) should come to repentance.”

This has been sufficiently responded to previously.
________________
Yukerboy Wrote: “Did Christ love? Did Christ have freewill? "Let not my will, but your will be done." The will of the Father is that those God gives to Christ should be raised up in the last day.”

The will of the father is expressed by the word of the Father above in Ezekiel Chapter 18 quoted above. Jesus first requested the cup pass Him by but then surrendered His will to that of the Father’s will.
________________
Yukerboy Wrote: ‘I think you read a lot into this. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given only to the born again.”


The heart of the issue seems to be more that you are limiting everything to the phrase “born again” and the emphasis you place on that phrase weighs more than the teachings within the gospel as an entirety.
___________


Yukerboy Wrote: ‘You will find many words in the Bible. Freewill is not one of them.
Those who sin were not "tempted by God". However, it is God who laid down the law to make the sin increase.”

Not to sound arrogant, there are many words not in the Bible but I don’t think you want to get into that issue. The fact is the entire Bible reflects the EXISTANCE of MANS FREE WILL and the teachings and instruction on what is necessary for man’s salvation. You would be best to leave out the argument that the “words” free will are not in the Bible, it is a poor attempt for supporting your belief. If man had no free will there would be no necessity for the instructions made in the Gospel because no one could choose to follow them.
_____________
Yukerboy Wrote: “Whosoever believes are those God granted belief to.”

If I were to choose between what you say the gospel teaches and what the gospel teaches, I accept the following; (note that it states God loved the World, all man)

John CH 3: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave 7 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RL) his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$3RM) the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
_____________________

Yukerboy
Feb 3rd 2009, 05:17 PM
1 PETER CH:1 1 1 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen sojourners of the dispersion 2 in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance. 3 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you 5 who by the power of God are safeguarded through faith, to a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the final time. 6 4 In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Although you have not seen him you love him; even though you do not see him now yet believe in him, you rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy, 9 as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls.”
This shows there is an effort involved and effort requires the will to act.


I see nothing on effort here, but I do see where the Bible clearly says that the born again are safeguarded by the power of God through faith to salvation.


Again I offer the following interpretation, not a personal interpretation;
"Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.


Once again, free will would need to be read into the Scripture for this to be true. Those God chose to be born again cannot choose not to be born again. God does not fail.


Rev. 3:5 – “Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).”
He will never erase the victor (he who perseveres after repentance) Take it a step further and begin at verse one…
Rev. 3 1 1 "To the angel of the church in Sardis, 2 write this: " 'The one who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars says this: "I know your works, that you have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent (referring to once being born of the Holy Spirit and returning to God through repentance). If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy.”


We know it is impossible for those who have been born again, who have been granted repentance to be renewed to repentance as Hebrews shows.

Those who need to repent were not born again. Christ doesn't call on the righteous to repent, but the sinner.


Ezekiel CH 18 20 Only the one who sins shall die. The son shall not be charged with the guilt of his father, nor shall the father be charged with the guilt of his son. The virtuous man's virtue shall be his own, as the wicked man's wickedness shall be his own. 21 But if the wicked man turns away from all the sins he committed, if he keeps all my statutes and does what is right and just, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 None of the crimes he committed shall be remembered against him; he shall live because of the virtue he has practiced. 23 Do I indeed derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? says the Lord GOD. Do I not rather rejoice when he turns from his evil way that he may live? 24 And if the virtuous man turns from the path of virtue to do evil, the same kind of abominable things that the wicked man does, can he do this and still live? None of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered, because he has broken faith and committed sin; because of this, he shall die. 25 You say, "The LORD'S way is not fair!" Hear now, house of Israel: Is it my way that is unfair, or rather, are not your ways unfair? 26 When a virtuous man turns away from virtue to commit iniquity, and dies, it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. 27 But if a wicked man, turning from the wickedness he has committed, does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life; 28 since he has turned away from all the sins which he committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 And yet the house of Israel says, "The LORD'S way is not fair!" Is it my way that is not fair, house of Israel, or rather, is it not that your ways are not fair? 30 Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Turn and be converted from all your crimes, that they may be no cause of guilt for you. 31 Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, says the Lord GOD. Return and live!” God does not refer to those “Born Again” as His children and no one else. He refers to all equally until sin threatens their salvation. He is clear also that repentance will bring us back to the gift of salvation.
Jesus Himself referred to us as Children when He proclaimed how hard it would be for someone of wealth (earthly priorities) to enter Heaven. He did not say how hard it would be for those who were not children of God to get to heaven but referenced. It has to do with devotion and priorities.


No one is referred to as children of God except those God has chosen. However, you will find many references to the children of the devil.


The will of the father is expressed by the word of the Father above in Ezekiel Chapter 18 quoted above. Jesus first requested the cup pass Him by but then surrendered His will to that of the Father’s will.

In each case, it is the will of God that is done. As it always shall be.


The heart of the issue seems to be more that you are limiting everything to the phrase “born again” and the emphasis you place on that phrase weighs more than the teachings within the gospel as an entirety.

The born again are called different things throughout the Scripture, but the born again is the most descriptive and accurate phrase. The born again are literally the children of God by the Spirit who has given birth to the spirit of the born again.


Not to sound arrogant, there are many words not in the Bible but I don’t think you want to get into that issue. The fact is the entire Bible reflects the EXISTANCE of MANS FREE WILL and the teachings and instruction on what is necessary for man’s salvation. You would be best to leave out the argument that the “words” free will are not in the Bible, it is a poor attempt for supporting your belief. If man had no free will there would be no necessity for the instructions made in the Gospel because no one could choose to follow them.

The fact is the whole Bible DENIES the existence of man's free will. From Adam to the anitchrist, not one could do as they wished but could only do as what was according to God's plan.


If I were to choose between what you say the gospel teaches and what the gospel teaches, I accept the following; (note that it states God loved the World, all man)

John CH 3: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Yes, John 3:16 is nice. Whosoever believes will not perish. Absolutely.

Now, Philippians 1:28-30 shows us who the whosovever are.

This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

Whosoever believes? Those who will be saved. It has been granted to them by God on behalf of Christ to believe on him.

God's gifts never fail.

Firstfruits
Feb 3rd 2009, 06:58 PM
I see nothing on effort here, but I do see where the Bible clearly says that the born again are safeguarded by the power of God through faith to salvation.



Once again, free will would need to be read into the Scripture for this to be true. Those God chose to be born again cannot choose not to be born again. God does not fail.



We know it is impossible for those who have been born again, who have been granted repentance to be renewed to repentance as Hebrews shows.

Those who need to repent were not born again. Christ doesn't call on the righteous to repent, but the sinner.



No one is referred to as children of God except those God has chosen. However, you will find many references to the children of the devil.



In each case, it is the will of God that is done. As it always shall be.



The born again are called different things throughout the Scripture, but the born again is the most descriptive and accurate phrase. The born again are literally the children of God by the Spirit who has given birth to the spirit of the born again.



The fact is the whole Bible DENIES the existence of man's free will. From Adam to the anitchrist, not one could do as they wished but could only do as what was according to God's plan.



Yes, John 3:16 is nice. Whosoever believes will not perish. Absolutely.

Now, Philippians 1:28-30 shows us who the whosovever are.

This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

Whosoever believes? Those who will be saved. It has been granted to them by God on behalf of Christ to believe on him.

God's gifts never fail.

Hi Yukerboy,

May I ask what you believe it means to work out your own salvation if we need no effort in order to endure until the end?

Phil 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Feb 4th 2009, 12:00 AM
Hi Yukerboy,

May I ask what you believe it means to work out your own salvation if we need no effort in order to endure until the end?

Phil 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Firstfruits

Making your election sure. Working out your salvation with fear and trembling. Hope that you are born again but know you may not be. Try to fulfill the conditions that only the born again are made to fulfill. Endure to the end or be condemned.

The born again will do this with no effort on their part. Those who believe for now but are not born again will put in a ton of effort, try as much as they can, yet fail.

HankZ
Feb 4th 2009, 01:58 AM
I believe the Holy Spirit is received when we are baptized and remain adjoined with Him provided we are sincere of heart and live according to God's teaching. But as the Scripture verses following point out, we are instructed we must remain strong and it is a struggle that goes on until the end. This is a teaching that is deeply rooted throughout scripture. We are saved through the blood of Christ and God never stops loving us however we have to persevere and notice how that perseverance is described as to the point of shedding blood if it be necessary.


Reading 1
Heb 12:1-4 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews12.htm#v1)

Brothers and sisters:
Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,
let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us
and persevere in running the race that lies before us
while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus,
the leader and perfecter of faith.
For the sake of the joy that lay before him
Jesus endured the cross, despising its shame,
and has taken his seat at the right of the throne of God.
Consider how he endured such opposition from sinners,
in order that you may not grow weary and lose heart.
In your struggle against sin
you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood.

Do you believe that if we stop living according to His will, that the Holy Spirit will leave us?

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 07:33 AM
Making your election sure. Working out your salvation with fear and trembling. Hope that you are born again but know you may not be. Try to fulfill the conditions that only the born again are made to fulfill. Endure to the end or be condemned.

The born again will do this with no effort on their part. Those who believe for now but are not born again will put in a ton of effort, try as much as they can, yet fail.

How can you make your election sure if you doubt what your election is in the first place?

How can you doubt your hope that you are born again?

How can you fulfil what only the born again can fulfil unless you are born again?

If it is effortless then you should have no problem accepting that you are born again.

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Feb 4th 2009, 02:04 PM
Thanks HankZ,

Would you therefore agree that if we are doing the will of God that we are born again with regards to what you have said?

This would mean that we should know whether or not we are doing Gods will and therefore know if we are born again.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 03:09 PM
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Thanks Partaker of Christ,

Just a thought regarding your name, can we be partakers of Christ if we are not born again?

1 Cor 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Eph 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Col 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Heb 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Feb 4th 2009, 04:01 PM
Do you believe that if we stop living according to His will, that the Holy Spirit will leave us?

I believe it is us who may separate ourselves from the Holy Spirit by choosing to oppose God’s will. And until repenting that opposition, we have separated from Him. You can get on a train and ride to its end or you can exit the train at some point before completing the journey but the train is always there on the track following its route.
Once repentant, we are accepted as the prodigal son was accepted. Any man who claims he is pure and ready to enter heaven with no debt deceives himself. For man can sin by thought alone and self-righteousness is a debt in itself. The words Of God teach us that it is impossible for a rich man (a man of the world) to get into heaven, but nothing is impossible for God. Now because Jesus said, “nothing is impossible for God”, does not imply nothing is required of man.

Thomas1621
Feb 4th 2009, 04:21 PM
I see nothing on effort here, but I do see where the Bible clearly says that the born again are safeguarded by the power of God through faith to salvation.


Because you don't see it, it means it does not apply? Do you understand when something is stated as an instruction or as a form of guidance the purpose is to teach you what the proper and best choices are? Can you accept that the gospel is a teaching device…?

Once again, free will would need to be read into the Scripture for this to be true. Those God chose to be born again cannot choose not to be born again. God does not fail.

What do you think the purpose of instruction is if not to help guide one's choices.


We know it is impossible for those who have been born again, who have been granted repentance to be renewed to repentance as Hebrews shows.

Those who need to repent were not born again. Christ doesn't call on the righteous to repent, but the sinner.

DO you consider self-rightiousness a sin?


No one is referred to as children of God except those God has chosen. However, you will find many references to the children of the devil.

Then why did Jesus call the apostles "children"


In each case, it is the will of God that is done. As it always shall be.

the will of God is that which He desires, not always that which we choose. He does not force us to love Him, to honor Him, to worship Him, etc.

The born again are called different things throughout the Scripture, but the born again is the most descriptive and accurate phrase. The born again are literally the children of God by the Spirit who has given birth to the spirit of the born again.

But by your own principles, you can not refer to born again unless it states "born again". Otherwise you would be "reading into" things.


The fact is the whole Bible DENIES the existence of man's free will. From Adam to the anitchrist, not one could do as they wished but could only do as what was according to God's plan.

That is not a distortion, that is just false.

Yes, John 3:16 is nice. Whosoever believes will not perish. Absolutely.

Now, Philippians 1:28-30 shows us who the whosovever are.

This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

Whosoever believes? Those who will be saved. It has been granted to them by God on behalf of Christ to believe on him.

God's gifts never fail.

No one ever said God's gift will fail or what God offers will be taken back. You should consider God is not in this covenant alone. the failures and refusals and sins come from the human side of the covenant.

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 04:38 PM
No one ever said God's gift will fail or what God offers will be taken back. You should consider God is not in this covenant alone. the failures and refusals and sins come from the human side of the covenant.

That is why we are told to walk in the Spirit and by walking in the Spirit as the Spirit leads, we shall not falter, however if we fail to follow the Spirit then we shall fall.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Feb 4th 2009, 04:49 PM
Because you don't see it, it means it does not apply? Do you understand when something is stated as an instruction or as a form of guidance the purpose is to teach you what the proper and best choices are? Can you accept that the gospel is a teaching device…?

Of course it is. It teaches us that "here's what the born again do. If you fulfill all of these, then you were born again."


What do you think the purpose of instruction is if not to help guide one's choices.


It is to leave man without excuse. Was the purpose of the law to make men righteous or to make men sin?


DO you consider self-rightiousness a sin?

Yes I do. None of the born again are self righteous. God has given them righteousness.


Then why did Jesus call the apostles "children"

Probably because they were born again?


the will of God is that which He desires, not always that which we choose. He does not force us to love Him, to honor Him, to worship Him, etc.

Is the law God's will?
Sacrifices and offerings required by God in the law, did He desire those?


That is not a distortion, that is just false.

LOL. I'll remember that one. No need to back up what you say, just call it false. That'll learns me.


No one ever said God's gift will fail or what God offers will be taken back. You should consider God is not in this covenant alone. the failures and refusals and sins come from the human side of the covenant.

God grants belief.
God grants repentance.
God grants faith.
God gives the born again to Christ.
God makes the born again stand firm.
God makes the born again endure to the end.
The born again cannot sin.

Now, with the Bible stating these things, then should one who is born again fail, God has failed. If one who is born again fail, God's gifts have failed. If one who is born again fails, then Christ has failed.

Thomas1621
Feb 4th 2009, 05:18 PM
Quote:
Because you don't see it, it means it does not apply? Do you understand when something is stated as an instruction or as a form of guidance the purpose is to teach you what the proper and best choices are? Can you accept that the gospel is a teaching device…?

Yukerboy: Of course it is. It teaches us that "here's what the born again do. If you fulfill all of these, then you were born again."

Where in general does it say here is what the "Born Again" do and please tell me how we recognize them?
_______________________
Quote:
What do you think the purpose of instruction is if not to help guide one's choices.

Yukerboy: It is to leave man without excuse. Was the purpose of the law to make men righteous or to make men sin?

Without excuse for the choices they make? Right…. Not to make men rightious, but that they may become rightious. There is a difference.
____________________________
Quote:
DO you consider self-rightiousness a sin?

Yukerboy: Yes I do. None of the born again are self righteous. God has given them righteousness.

And how does one determine he or she is born again rather than being self rightious in their considerations?

______________________
Quote:
Then why did Jesus call the apostles "children"

Yukerboy: Probably because they were born again?

So if they were born again, what was it that happened when Peter denied Christ three times?
_____________________________
Quote:
the will of God is that which He desires, not always that which we choose. He does not force us to love Him, to honor Him, to worship Him, etc.

Yukerboy: Is the law God's will?
Sacrifices and offerings required by God in the law, did He desire those?

God proclaimed His law and men practiced their traditions. Laws that man creates doesn’t necessarily express that which God proclaims….

__________________
Quote:
That is not a distortion, that is just false.

Yukerboy: LOL. I'll remember that one. No need to back up what you say, just call it false. That'll learns me.

Now you know what I felt reading your statement. The Bible backs itself up on that one. I can provide you a link but I don’t think the forum would like me pasting the contents of the Bible in posts.

____________________
Quote:
No one ever said God's gift will fail or what God offers will be taken back. You should consider God is not in this covenant alone. the failures and refusals and sins come from the human side of the covenant.

God grants belief.
God grants repentance.
God grants faith.
God gives the born again to Christ.
God makes the born again stand firm.
God makes the born again endure to the end.
The born again cannot sin.

Yukerboy: Now, with the Bible stating these things, then should one who is born again fail, God has failed. If one who is born again fail, God's gifts have failed. If one who is born again fails, then Christ has failed.

So explain Peter’s denial of Jesus…. Or was he not “born again”

Firstfruits
Feb 4th 2009, 07:43 PM
Of course it is. It teaches us that "here's what the born again do. If you fulfill all of these, then you were born again."



It is to leave man without excuse. Was the purpose of the law to make men righteous or to make men sin?



Yes I do. None of the born again are self righteous. God has given them righteousness.



Probably because they were born again?



Is the law God's will?
Sacrifices and offerings required by God in the law, did He desire those?



LOL. I'll remember that one. No need to back up what you say, just call it false. That'll learns me.



God grants belief.
God grants repentance.
God grants faith.
God gives the born again to Christ.
God makes the born again stand firm.
God makes the born again endure to the end.
The born again cannot sin.

Now, with the Bible stating these things, then should one who is born again fail, God has failed. If one who is born again fail, God's gifts have failed. If one who is born again fails, then Christ has failed.

With regards to what you say in the following;

God grants belief.
God grants repentance.
God grants faith.
God gives the born again to Christ.
God makes the born again stand firm.
God makes the born again endure to the end.
The born again cannot sin.

Do you believe that God has made you believe?
Has God granted you repentance?
Have you been given to Christ?
Has God made you stand firm?
Will God make you endure to the end?
Have you fulfilled the works of the flesh if you have been given to Christ?

Are you born again?

Can you please provide scriptures for what you have said you believe?

Firstfruits

HankZ
Feb 5th 2009, 01:21 AM
I believe it is us who may separate ourselves from the Holy Spirit by choosing to oppose God’s will. And until repenting that opposition, we have separated from Him. You can get on a train and ride to its end or you can exit the train at some point before completing the journey but the train is always there on the track following its route.
Once repentant, we are accepted as the prodigal son was accepted. Any man who claims he is pure and ready to enter heaven with no debt deceives himself. For man can sin by thought alone and self-righteousness is a debt in itself. The words Of God teach us that it is impossible for a rich man (a man of the world) to get into heaven, but nothing is impossible for God. Now because Jesus said, “nothing is impossible for God”, does not imply nothing is required of man.


To simplify things for me, I will try to compare this to a 401K? God offers a retirement plan of a billion dollars and on top of that, He will match our investment. If we choose to not participate in the retirement plan, we end our carrier with nothing, but if we invest our 10% all of our working years, God matches it with another 10% and we can have a nice retirement. If at anytime we want to change jobs, we are unable to cash the investment and the matching fund ever. In other words if we retire from this job we are forever satisfied, but if we ever quit we will lose everything.

This may seem a bit of a stretch, but am I understanding your point at all?

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 12:04 PM
To simplify things for me, I will try to compare this to a 401K? God offers a retirement plan of a billion dollars and on top of that, He will match our investment. If we choose to not participate in the retirement plan, we end our carrier with nothing, but if we invest our 10% all of our working years, God matches it with another 10% and we can have a nice retirement. If at anytime we want to change jobs, we are unable to cash the investment and the matching fund ever. In other words if we retire from this job we are forever satisfied, but if we ever quit we will lose everything.

This may seem a bit of a stretch, but am I understanding your point at all?

Once you sign up to the plan then in order to reap the benefits of that plan you must remain in the plan. The author of the plan will never withdraw from the plan however the plan is only valid if you remain until the plan comes to its end.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Feb 5th 2009, 01:51 PM
To simplify things for me, I will try to compare this to a 401K? God offers a retirement plan of a billion dollars and on top of that, He will match our investment. If we choose to not participate in the retirement plan, we end our carrier with nothing, but if we invest our 10% all of our working years, God matches it with another 10% and we can have a nice retirement. If at anytime we want to change jobs, we are unable to cash the investment and the matching fund ever. In other words if we retire from this job we are forever satisfied, but if we ever quit we will lose everything.

This may seem a bit of a stretch, but am I understanding your point at all?

yes, if you quit and leave this life in a state of serious sin without repenting, you loose. Being saved or promised heaven doesn't mean there will be no debt to pay before entering heaven, no purification or however you want to put it. But having a debt doesn't cause the loss of salvation as serious sin would. But thats a different thing.

HankZ
Feb 5th 2009, 03:05 PM
yes, if you quit and leave this life in a state of serious sin without repenting, you loose. Being saved or promised heaven doesn't mean there will be no debt to pay before entering heaven, no purification or however you want to put it. But having a debt doesn't cause the loss of salvation as serious sin would. But thats a different thing.

That isn't the God I know from the bible. God is explained in the bible regarding His elect, as a "Father" who loves His sons enough to disipline them(never rejecting,) a shepherd who risks His life so that He will save the one lost sheep, the good shepherd who will fight off bears and lions with no regard to His own protection but His only care is of the flock, a mother hen who wants to gather her chicks to herself, and other things of which show His never ending love and compasion for those He has choosen. Sin seperated man from God, Jesus sacrifice has reunited them. It is God's faithfulness that I cling to, knowing that I am not able to carry myself through this life without error. I will fail many times, but God has promised to finish the work He started in me and to make me perfect. It is in this that I find peace and comfort, not in my own rightousness as I am not able to be rightous by myself. No matter what happens in this life, God is bigger and will never break His promise. To be born again is to be free from the worries of this life and have the freedom to worship God.

As far as having a debt beyond that which Christ has fully paid, that belongs in another thread which I would not participate in.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 03:23 PM
That isn't the God I know from the bible. God is explained in the bible regarding His elect, as a "Father" who loves His sons enough to disipline them(never rejecting,) a shepherd who risks His life so that He will save the one lost sheep, the good shepherd who will fight off bears and lions with no regard to His own protection but His only care is of the flock, a mother hen who wants to gather her chicks to herself, and other things of which show His never ending love and compasion for those He has choosen. Sin seperated man from God, Jesus sacrifice has reunited them. It is God's faithfulness that I cling to, knowing that I am not able to carry myself through this life without error. I will fail many times, but God has promised to finish the work He started in me and to make me perfect. It is in this that I find peace and comfort, not in my own rightousness as I am not able to be rightous by myself. No matter what happens in this life, God is bigger and will never break His promise. To be born again is to be free from the worries of this life and have the freedom to worship God.

As far as having a debt beyond that which Christ has fully paid, that belongs in another thread which I would not participate in.

Doesn't what you have said depend on whether or not we follow the Messiah as we should and not wander off from the right path?

If we do not follow where the Spirit leads does that mean we are likely to the fulfilling the works of the flesh?

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 5th 2009, 03:33 PM
Once you sign up to the plan then in order to reap the benefits of that plan you must remain in the plan. The author of the plan will never withdraw from the plan however the plan is only valid if you remain until the plan comes to its end.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Firstfruits
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I agree.. and its greatly noted that you mentioned the 'author' of the plan.. as God is the author your Salvation and the Salvation He has granted me.. He started it and He will fininish it... He is Faithful.....
there have been so many times when I thought 'as a Christian' God had abandoned me... because of some of my decisions..and the things I had done.. some of the stuff I believed which was contrary to Him... but only to find out Later.. He hadn't.. and that He had always been there.. He was Faithful.. all the time.. and as the Great Shepherd brings in His Sheep with the gentle crook of His Staff.. leading them back to what He wants and setting them on the right track again.... giving them the Strength, Wisdom, Knowledge, Power to perservere to the End.. this not done out of my their own strength or knowledge or power but His..

If God be for you? Who can be against you?
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For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

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HankZ
Feb 5th 2009, 03:41 PM
Doesn't what you have said depend on whether or not we follow the Messiah as we should and not wander off from the right path?

If we do not follow where the Spirit leads does that mean we are likely to the fulfilling the works of the flesh?

Firstfruits

Did you read my post before replying? I never mentioned a path. I said I fail and only through God's faithfulness to do as He promised can I find peace. Jesus being the good shepherd, will leave the path to search and find the lost sheep and bring him back to His flock.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 03:44 PM
Did you read my post before replying? I never mentioned a path. I said I fail and only through God's faithfulness to do as He promised can I find peace.

Doesn't being faithful mean that you are on the right path, that you are following the spirit?

Are you saying that you can never stray from the path of righteousness?

Firstfruits

HankZ
Feb 5th 2009, 03:57 PM
Doesn't being faithful mean that you are on the right path, that you are following the spirit?

Are you saying that you can never stray from the path of righteousness?

Firstfruits

Not my faithfulness, God's faithfulness. He will find me if and when I leave the path. He is faithful to complete the work He began. He wants us to follow him out of love, not like a kidnapped victim follows there captor.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 04:30 PM
Not my faithfulness, God's faithfulness. He will find me if and when I leave the path. He is faithful to complete the work He began. He wants us to follow him out of love, not like a kidnapped victim follows there captor.

God is faithful but we are also required to be faithful.

1 Cor 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Cor 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Rev 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Gal 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

We must be faithful.

Firstfruits

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 5th 2009, 05:21 PM
God is faithful but we are also required to be faithful.

1 Cor 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Cor 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Rev 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Gal 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

We must be faithful.

Firstfruits
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree... we must be faithful.. but He is Faithful even when we fail.. and are not.. due to the weakness of our flesh... He commands to Walk in the Spirit but there will be times that you are not 100% in the Spirit... Paul talked about the 'infirmity' of the flesh.. the 'weakness'...

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

but thru the Spirit He will help you put to death those desires of the flesh.. and walk in the Spirit...giving you strength wisdom and power to Persevere to the end... you are 'kept' by the Power of God... does God Condemn you when you slip up and begin to walk in the flesh? No .. His Spirit will help you put to death those desires... for the Spirit lusteth against the flesh.. and vice versa.. but God will help you put to death those desires.. were you faithful during the times when you walk in the flesh.. probalby not.. but He was and Always will be.. if you are His... and He will help 'crucify' those desires.... He is FOR YOU.. not against You..

to be honest when I find myself being drawn into the flesh.. I actually hate it.. and I will put to death those desires thru the help of the Holy Ghost.. my flesh fights it.. oh it does.. believe me... but then I can literally feel Him help me.. I can feel the Spirit welling up inside me.. like its rising above the occasion.... and its like my body or my flesh dies.. but that Spirit which strengthens the inner man is .. is alive and Well.. for we serve God from the 'inner man'.. and in that 'inward part' thou shalt make me to 'know' Truth and wisdom.......

and He is ABLE TO COMPLETE that which He started in Me.. even until the Day of Christ..

HankZ
Feb 5th 2009, 07:27 PM
God is faithful but we are also required to be faithful.

1 Cor 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Cor 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

1 Corinthians 4:2 (New American Standard Bible)

2In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy.





Rev 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

We are not in the great tribulation as is spoken of in this passage.


Gal 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

We must be faithful.

Firstfruits

I don't see the arguement you are presenting. I can see these verses in complete agreement that God will save us regardless of how little faith we posses because He is still the one that always remains faithful.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 08:01 PM
1 Corinthians 4:2 (New American Standard Bible)

2In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy.






We are not in the great tribulation as is spoken of in this passage.



I don't see the arguement you are presenting. I can see these verses in complete agreement that God will save us regardless of how little faith we posses because He is still the one that always remains faithful.

If we are unfaithful and not trustworthy with regards to the following, can we not fail to enter in because of unfaithfulness?

Heb 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Heb 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

According to these scriptures unbelief can cause us to fall short.

Gods faithfulness will never fail but we have a responsibilty to be faithful to God.

Firstfruits

HankZ
Feb 5th 2009, 08:03 PM
If we are unfaithful and not trustworthy with regards to the following, can we not fail to enter in because of unfaithfulness?

Heb 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Heb 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

According to these scriptures unbelief can cause us to fall short.

Gods faithfulness will never fail but we have a responsibilty to be faithful to God.

Firstfruits


I believe these are to be 100% accurate. There will not be 1 unbeliever in heaven.

Firstfruits
Feb 5th 2009, 08:24 PM
I believe these are to be 100% accurate. There will not be 1 unbeliever in heaven.

So are you agreeing that as well as God being faithful we also must be faithful in order for us not to fail?

Heb 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

God bless!

Firstfruits

HankZ
Feb 5th 2009, 09:02 PM
So are you agreeing that as well as God being faithful we also must be faithful in order for us not to fail?

Heb 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

God bless!

Firstfruits


I read these in your last post. What is your point?

theBelovedDisciple
Feb 5th 2009, 09:11 PM
So are you agreeing that as well as God being faithful we also must be faithful in order for us not to fail?

Heb 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

God bless!

Firstfruits

---------------------------------------------------------------------

From the moment a person is Born Again... does he/she walk in 'COMPLETE FAITHFULNESS' 100 % of the time... lets say a person is saved at the age of 25... They live to 85.. now in those 60 years.. is he/she walking 'perfectly in full faithfullness to God'? in those 60 years never had a doubt about God.. never once 'failed' as far as believing God and having 100% Faithfulness at all times... from the moment they woke up in the morning to the time they went to bed at night..

people talk about 'entering in'.. do you believe its out of your 'own' power that you 'abide in Faithfulness'? man's ability to 'be faithful'.. or do you believe you are helped by the Holy Ghost...

I'll be honest there have been times when I have 'doubted'...I'm not perfected.. but my faith is Strong today.. and its a God Centered Faith .. in Him.. and not in my ability to 'be faithful' out of my own power... but there have been times in the past when I have doubted... and didnt really know what to do.. and I'm sure there are times in the future when I'll be tested too.. in another area of my life..

I failed... to 'believe' 100 percent of the time... did God condemn me for that? Was I in err.. oh yes... because of my unbelief... but He is merciful and gracious .. and revealed to me that even when I didn't believe... He was Faithful... thru this I have come to the realiziation that He does not fail.. He is always Faithful... and when it comes to FAITH....that you can't trust your emotions, circumstances, the devil is tellin you God has abandoned you, feelings and those things around you... all those things are temporal.. but God is Eternal.. and if you are His.. then He won't let you go...

Coming out of those times when I doubted... and realizing He was there all the time.. even when my faith failed and I was unfaithful... I have learned more about Him and that is the reazliation that He is Always Faithful... and when tested in those times.. when my faith fails and I believe not.. then it is a comfort for me to know that He never fails and that He is there... and He is not codemning me for my shortfall on faith....

Does this give me liscense to go out and be 'unfaithful'.. certainly not... I want to remain in the state of Faithfulness.. because of what He showed me when I wasnt faithful.. that He was... this drives me to Persevere thru the Power of the Spirit and Faith 'in Him'.. and not in my ability to 'be faithful' on my own power......Daily we strive thru the Power of the Spirit.. to remain faithful.. and He is there helping you and comforting you.. giving you wisdom and strength to Persevere... in Faith...

If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself

Yukerboy
Feb 5th 2009, 10:26 PM
Where in general does it say here is what the "Born Again" do and please tell me how we recognize them?


From Matthew to Revelation. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=153176

You will find the first 67 characteristics of the born again in this thread.

As for how do we recognize them....by their fruits, and none of the fruits are works.


Without excuse for the choices they make? Right…. Not to make men rightious, but that they may become rightious. There is a difference.


The purpose of the law was to increase transgressions (sin).


And how does one determine he or she is born again rather than being self rightious in their considerations?

Either...
A. They are born again and that righteousness comes from God.
B. They are not born again and any righteousness they think they have comes from self.


So if they were born again, what was it that happened when Peter denied Christ three times?


Peter denied Christ three times. The sin abiding in his flesh sinned.


God proclaimed His law and men practiced their traditions. Laws that man creates doesn’t necessarily express that which God proclaims….

Agreed. However, the law of God was not written for the righteous, but for the lawbreakers. The born again are free from God's law of sin and death.


Now you know what I felt reading your statement. The Bible backs itself up on that one. I can provide you a link but I don’t think the forum would like me pasting the contents of the Bible in posts.

Lots of choosing and electing in the Bible, but not one mention of free will.


So explain Peter’s denial of Jesus…. Or was he not “born again”

Peter denied Christ three times. So, knowing that the born again cannot sin (1 John 3:9), you then have two options.

Peter was born again at that point and did not sin.
Peter was not born again at that point and did sin.


Do you believe that God has made you believe?

Absolutely.

Has God granted you repentance?

I believe so.

Have you been given to Christ?

I believe so.

Has God made you stand firm?
So far.

Will God make you endure to the end?
I believe and hope so.

Have you fulfilled the works of the flesh if you have been given to Christ?
No.

Are you born again?
I believe so.

Can you please provide scriptures for what you have said you believe?

Absolutely

God grants belief. - Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

God grants repentance. - 2 Timothy 2:25 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

God grants faith. - Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse) For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

God gives the born again to Christ. - John 10:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&verse=29&version=31&context=verse) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

God makes the born again stand firm. - 2 Corinthians 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse) Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

God makes the born again endure to the end. - 1 Corinthians 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=1&verse=8&version=31&context=verse) He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The born again cannot sin. - 1 John 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=3&verse=9&version=9&context=verse) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2009, 09:20 AM
[quote=Yukerboy;1971656]From Matthew to Revelation. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=153176


With regards to the following that you have said:

Agreed. However, the law of God was not written for the righteous, but for the lawbreakers. The born again are free from God's law of sin and death.

If you believe that you are free from Gods law of sin and death then you must know that you are born again unless you are saying that you are unrighteous?


Quote:
Do you believe that God has made you believe?
Absolutely.

Quote:
Has God granted you repentance?
I believe so.

Quote:
Have you been given to Christ?
I believe so.

Quote:
Has God made you stand firm?
So far.

Quote:
Will God make you endure to the end?
I believe and hope so.

Quote:
Have you fulfilled the works of the flesh if you have been given to Christ?
No.

Quote:
Are you born again?
I believe so.

If you belive then there is no need to be unsure or to be doubtful according to your answers.

Heb 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Feb 11th 2009, 08:31 PM
From Matthew to Revelation. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=153176

You will find the first 67 characteristics of the born again in this thread.

No "characteristics", I asked about the specific text proclaiming all the Born again do.

As for how do we recognize them....by their fruits, and none of the fruits are works.

Can you recognize, determine, judge those who are and are not of the Holy Spirit?



The purpose of the law was to increase transgressions (sin).

show me credible support for this.



Either...
A. They are born again and that righteousness comes from God.
B. They are not born again and any righteousness they think they have comes from self.

How can one claim to be born again if they can have no idea whether they are actually or not? Why the catagory or raised selfness where one can only "strive" in Faith of it?



Peter denied Christ three times. The sin abiding in his flesh sinned.

you can't sin without will...



Agreed. However, the law of God was not written for the righteous, but for the lawbreakers. The born again are free from God's law of sin and death.

Then they would have to know they are in fact born again without doubt or they would reflect human traits, sin... Would they not?

Lots of choosing and electing in the Bible, but not one mention of free will.

Free will isthe ability to choose, to elect one catagory from the other... What do you consider it to be when you choose or elect one over another?


Peter denied Christ three times. So, knowing that the born again cannot sin (1 John 3:9), you then have two options.

Peter was born again at that point and did not sin.
Peter was not born again at that point and did sin.
one problem with this... Peter surely was saved considering Jesus had prayed for him to His Heavenly Father and Jesus declared the Father in Heaven was the one who revealed to Peter who Jesus was...

.

These are just some of the questions I have regarding your points. We can start with them if you don't mind.

Yukerboy
Feb 12th 2009, 02:41 PM
No "characteristics", I asked about the specific text proclaiming all the Born again do.

Those are specific texts claiming what the born again do, not to become born again, but because they are born again.


Can you recognize, determine, judge those who are and are not of the Holy Spirit?

No. What you can recognize are false prophets by their fruit (Mathew 7:15-20)


The purpose of the law was to increase transgressions (sin).

show me credible support for this.

Romans 7:20-21 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

How credible is Paul?


How can one claim to be born again if they can have no idea whether they are actually or not? Why the catagory or raised selfness where one can only "strive" in Faith of it?

One can claim to be born again by believing he/she is born again. However, that doesn't make the claim accurate.


you can't sin without will...

Hebrews 9:7
But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

Not only that, but the flesh still desires to sin, even after one is born again.


Agreed. However, the law of God was not written for the righteous, but for the lawbreakers. The born again are free from God's law of sin and death.

Then they would have to know they are in fact born again without doubt or they would reflect human traits, sin... Would they not?

They still do sin in the flesh. The difference is the born again will never want to sin, the rest do.


Free will isthe ability to choose, to elect one catagory from the other... What do you consider it to be when you choose or elect one over another?

I agree, but it is God that does the choosing and electing, not man.


one problem with this... Peter surely was saved considering Jesus had prayed for him to His Heavenly Father and Jesus declared the Father in Heaven was the one who revealed to Peter who Jesus was...

I gave you the two options. If you say Peter was born again at that point, then Peter did not sin.