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pc_benz
Jan 19th 2009, 11:13 PM
Christ said before dying on the cross "It's Finished." This literally means the debt has been paid in full.

Question:

If the debt has been paid in full, and it is finished, leaving nothing to do, but some say you have to believe and have faith, was it really finished?

It seems that some believe it was not finished, because man still has to believe to have salvation.

LookingUp
Jan 19th 2009, 11:17 PM
Christ said before dying on the cross "It's Finished." This literally means the debt has been paid in full.

Question:

If the debt has been paid in full, and it is finished, leaving nothing to do, but some say you have to believe and have faith, was it really finished?

It seems that some believe it was not finished, because man still has to believe to have salvation.There is nothing left for Him to do. Just because Jesus hands you a check doesn't mean your bill is paid. You must deposit it into your account.

Butch5
Jan 19th 2009, 11:22 PM
Christ said before dying on the cross "It's Finished." This literally means the debt has been paid in full.

Question:

If the debt has been paid in full, and it is finished, leaving nothing to do, but some say you have to believe and have faith, was it really finished?

It seems that some believe it was not finished, because man still has to believe to have salvation.

Can you show that Jesus meant the debt is paid when He made that statement?

pc_benz
Jan 19th 2009, 11:25 PM
There is nothing left for Him to do. Just because Jesus hands you a check doesn't mean your bill is paid. You must deposit it into your account.

So you are saying that some people don't deposit their checks? Does this mean some of Christ' blood is going to waste?

I still don't see how it was finished, if we have something left to do. It's like Jesus saying, "Well I've done my part. Hope it's good enough. Hope they deposit it and don't waste my blood."

pc_benz
Jan 19th 2009, 11:26 PM
Can you show that Jesus meant the debt is paid when He made that statement?

From what I understand this is what "It's Finished." literally means. The debt of course is God's wrath.

Psalms Fan
Jan 19th 2009, 11:31 PM
pc,

I will word things in a way that has helped me a lot with the same issue.

I look at "being saved by faith" slightly differently. It's not so much our faith that saves us (as if faith died on the cross). Rather, we have faith in what saves us, which is the finished work of Christ on the cross.

9Marksfan
Jan 19th 2009, 11:33 PM
From what I understand this is what "It's Finished." literally means. The debt of course is God's wrath.

Yes, tetalestai means "it is paid" and was what was written on bills once they had been paid.

Not sure the debt is God's wrath - but sin is spoken of as debt in the Lord's Prayer and also in the parable of the unmerciful servant - and of course we have this scripture:-

And you who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. Col 2:14 ESV

LookingUp
Jan 19th 2009, 11:39 PM
So you are saying that some people don't deposit their checks? Does this mean some of Christ' blood is going to waste?

I still don't see how it was finished, if we have something left to do. It's like Jesus saying, "Well I've done my part. Hope it's good enough. Hope they deposit it and don't waste my blood."Some people don't want to be reconciled with God no matter how much debt they have. Some don't believe they have any debt to be paid in the first place. Some believe they can pay for their own debt without the help of God.

If I had two children and I died for both of them, but only one received it as a gift, I would not feel my blood was wasted.

I don't think the blood of Jesus was a waste. Do you?

pc_benz
Jan 19th 2009, 11:43 PM
pc,

I will word things in a way that has helped me a lot with the same issue.

I look at "being saved by faith" slightly differently. It's not so much our faith that saves us (as if faith died on the cross). Rather, we have faith in what saves us, which is the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Yes this is true. But I think scripture is clear man cannot believe or have faith without God doing something. Man in his natural state will never do anything but rebel agaisnt a Holy God, and cannot do anything otherwise. God has to cause the man to come alive (regeneration), then he can believe and have faith.

Remember Esp.2:8? What is important there is the order. It's by grace (undeserved), we are saved through faith, etc...

It was finished at the cross as Jesus said, leaving nothing left to do for the elect (saved).

I will be careful here that although we cannot do anything unless God causes us to be born again, we are commanded to repent and believe if He so chooses to give us grace.

pc_benz
Jan 19th 2009, 11:47 PM
Some people don't want to be reconciled with God no matter how much debt they have. Some don't believe they have any debt to be paid in the first place. Some believe they can pay for their own debt without the help of God.

If I had two children and I died for both of them, but only one received it as a gift, I would not feel my blood was wasted.

I don't think the blood of Jesus was a waste. Do you?

Ahhhhhhh! No way do I think the blood of Christ was a waste. I just do not believe He shed His blood for those whom will not come. It was a perfect sacrifice that completely atoned for the sin of His elect.

LookingUp
Jan 19th 2009, 11:55 PM
Ahhhhhhh! No way do I think the blood of Christ was a waste. I just do not believe He shed His blood for those whom will not come. It was a perfect sacrifice that completely atoned for the sin of His elect.Oh okay. I see where you are going - limited atonement, right?

Yukerboy
Jan 20th 2009, 12:00 AM
Ahhhhhhh! No way do I think the blood of Christ was a waste. I just do not believe He shed His blood for those whom will not come. It was a perfect sacrifice that completely atoned for the sin of His elect.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

I believe in limited effectual atonement. The effectual atonement of Christ's sacrifice is limited to those who are born again. However, I never deny the fact that Christ sacrificed Himself not only for our sins, but the sins of the world.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 12:05 AM
From what I understand this is what "It's Finished." literally means. The debt of course is God's wrath.


different words have many meanings, if say you're cool, he's would think I am saying he is with the times, however, that statement could also mean he has a chill, or it could mean, he gives someone the cold shoulder. So just because that statement may have been used to mark a debt paid does not mean that that is the way Jesus meant to use it. His usage must be determined from the context of Scripture. Having said that, can we show from Scripture there is a debt to be paid?

LookingUp
Jan 20th 2009, 12:07 AM
Hey, I was thinking of a funny picture. Let's say a Hebrew man brings a lamb for a sin offering for his family. The lamb is sacrificed with the father of the household's good intentions that it cover the sins of his entire household. But then his unruly teenager comes up and says "I don't need your stinkin' lamb!" So, although the lamb was sacrificed and his blood was shed for the entire family, the lamb's blood could not atone for the child who refused it. Do you think they had these kinds of problems with their teens back then? Ouy vey!

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 20th 2009, 12:10 AM
was it really finished?
----------------------------------------------

I'll answer that with His Words...

It is Finished.......

He said it just before expiring physically... If He said it then I believe what He said.. He had Completed what He had been sent to do.. To die as the Lamb Slain before the foundation of the World... Why? to PROVIDE a Way back to the Father..

Jesus said He was the WAY, TRUTH, and LIFE....

there is no other 'way' to Heaven but thru Him.. You can't add to or take away what HE has Accomplished... He 'calls' men to Repent and Believe in Him and What He has accomplished... and In Him and His Completed Work .. It is Finished... is Eternal Life...

tt1106
Jan 20th 2009, 12:28 AM
Tetelestai is the final brush stroke on a masterpiece. It doesn't "just" mean paid in full.
I like to think that This ended the final scene in the first act. God unfolds his love to his creation throughout time. He then offers salvation through the law in the OT. Of course, he knows that the law cannot be followed. That man is incapable of keeping the law. This is the moment we have all been waiting for....the moment God unfolds his offer of salvation through his son.
How Great is our God, that we get salvation instead of just being rightfully obliterated.

Blessings

chad
Jan 20th 2009, 09:33 AM
Hi Pc_Benz,

To me when Jesus says it is finished, what does that actually mean. What was he referring to?

(John 19:30 KJV) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Finished = G5055 teleo – from G5056 to end, complete, execute, discharge (a debt) – accomplish, make an end, expire, fill-up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

The question could be asked - finished what?

The work that God called him to do, while on earth?

The old convenant is finished?
No more blood sacrifice offered by priests under the Mosaic law?

Was it Jesus suffering that was finished?
As he died on the cross


The difficult thing to work out is what is the 'It'. 'IT' could mean different things.

9Marksfan
Jan 20th 2009, 10:30 AM
Tetelestai is the final brush stroke on a masterpiece. It doesn't "just" mean paid in full.

Agreed, but that is its primary meaning.


I like to think that This ended the final scene in the first act. God unfolds his love to his creation throughout time. He then offers salvation through the law in the OT.

The law was never "offered" - it was revealed. And it was never a means of salvation.


Of course, he knows that the law cannot be followed. That man is incapable of keeping the law. This is the moment we have all been waiting for....the moment God unfolds his offer of salvation through his son.

But is it just an offer? or was it ACCOMPLISHED?


How Great is our God, that we get salvation instead of just being rightfully obliterated.

Blessings

Well amen to that!

pc_benz
Jan 20th 2009, 04:58 PM
Having said that, can we show from Scripture there is a debt to be paid?

Of course we can. It's a sin debt.

pc_benz
Jan 20th 2009, 05:06 PM
Hey, I was thinking of a funny picture. Let's say a Hebrew man brings a lamb for a sin offering for his family. The lamb is sacrificed with the father of the household's good intentions that it cover the sins of his entire household. But then his unruly teenager comes up and says "I don't need your stinkin' lamb!" So, although the lamb was sacrificed and his blood was shed for the entire family, the lamb's blood could not atone for the child who refused it. Do you think they had these kinds of problems with their teens back then? Ouy vey!

Interesting idea no doubt. Teens are teens no matter what century.

Hey I asked a friend of mine who is an attorney if someone broke the law and let's say there was a legal demand of $100.00 fine or a day in prison, could the "law" or legal demand be rejected by the criminal? He said the criminal could reject it, but if someone else paid the fine the criminals rejection would not matter. The law is satisified no matter who pays it, and the criminal cannot over ride the law by rejecting it. So if I pay the $100.00 fine, legally the law has been satisfied and it does not matter if the person who broke the law allows me to do it or not. Once I pay the fine, the law has no recourse agaisnt the criminal.

pc_benz
Jan 20th 2009, 05:09 PM
How Great is our God, that we get salvation instead of just being rightfully obliterated.

Blessings

Amen and Amen!!!

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 20th 2009, 05:22 PM
Interesting idea no doubt. Teens are teens no matter what century.

Hey I asked a friend of mine who is an attorney if someone broke the law and let's say there was a legal demand of $100.00 fine or a day in prison, could the "law" or legal demand be rejected by the criminal? He said the criminal could reject it, but if someone else paid the fine the criminals rejection would not matter. The law is satisified no matter who pays it, and the criminal cannot over ride the law by rejecting it. So if I pay the $100.00 fine, legally the law has been satisfied and it does not matter if the person who broke the law allows me to do it or not. Once I pay the fine, the law has no recourse agaisnt the criminal.
Does this mean you believe everybody will be saved and nobody will go to hell?

RabbiKnife
Jan 20th 2009, 05:25 PM
"Paying the price for sin" is not the reason people go to hell.

People go to hell because they choose to be there. They choose to spend eternity away from God. God won't force them to be in His presence when they don't want to be.

The price of all sin for all time was completely, utterly, and forever paid in Christ's sacrifice. Nothing more can be paid, either by Christ or by any human in hell for all eternity.

It is finished. Now people just make choices, and God honors their free will.

pc_benz
Jan 20th 2009, 05:35 PM
Does this mean you believe everybody will be saved and nobody will go to hell?

No of course not that would go agaisnt Holy Writ. Those who have not been "Born Again" will not see the kingdom of heaven.

pc_benz
Jan 20th 2009, 05:38 PM
Oh okay. I see where you are going - limited atonement, right?

;)

Please do not stone me!

9Marksfan
Jan 20th 2009, 09:33 PM
"Paying the price for sin" is not the reason people go to hell.

People go to hell because they choose to be there. They choose to spend eternity away from God. God won't force them to be in His presence when they don't want to be.

The price of all sin for all time was completely, utterly, and forever paid in Christ's sacrifice. Nothing more can be paid, either by Christ or by any human in hell for all eternity.

It is finished. Now people just make choices, and God honors their free will.

So if all sin has been paid for, why does God still condemn people? If you're going to say "their unbelief", isn't that sin? If so, then wasn't it atoned for too? :hmm:

RabbiKnife
Jan 20th 2009, 09:40 PM
God doesn't condemn anyone.

They condemn themselves to hell by choosing to reject Christ.

No human can pay the penalty for sin.

The debt for all sin is paid. Whether sinners choose to avail themselves of grace or not is an entirely different issue.

Julian
Jan 20th 2009, 09:47 PM
Christ said before dying on the cross "It's Finished." This literally means the debt has been paid in full.

Question:

If the debt has been paid in full, and it is finished, leaving nothing to do, but some say you have to believe and have faith, was it really finished?

It seems that some believe it was not finished, because man still has to believe to have salvation.
You've got to believe in what he accomplished, or else you'll still be living in all the sin/debt/death that you have been born into. His accomplishment it a reality for anyone who believes and makes him their Lord. The act has been completed, now it is up to us to believe that he really did it and respond in a proper believing way.

pc_benz
Jan 20th 2009, 10:08 PM
Whether sinners choose to avail themselves of grace or not is an entirely different issue.

Interesting comment. So would you say human will is more powerful than God's will to save?

By the way, if you say all the sin of all people was paid for, then when someone does not believe (sin of unbelief) they have to pay for it and go to hell, this does not make sense. It seems you are saying that Christ died for all sin except the sin of unbelief. Which by the way leaves us with a problem that Christ death was not enough to cover all our sin. This can not be because scripture testifies Christ death covers "All" sin.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 11:31 PM
Of course we can. It's a sin debt.

Where is that in Scripture?

pc_benz
Jan 20th 2009, 11:47 PM
Where is that in Scripture?

And you who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. Col 2:14 ESV

Courtesy of Marksfan.

I am amazed at how many people do not realize it was a legal transaction that took place on Calvary. Violation of God's law is sin, the law requires a payment for this sin. We either pay the fine in our destruction, or Christ pays the fine for us.

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 12:32 AM
And you who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. Col 2:14 ESV

Courtesy of Marksfan.

I am amazed at how many people do not realize it was a legal transaction that took place on Calvary. Violation of God's law is sin, the law requires a payment for this sin. We either pay the fine in our destruction, or Christ pays the fine for us.


That is a poor translation there,


Colossians 2:14 ( KJV ) 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Here's Young's literal translation,

Colossians 2:14 ( YLT ) 14having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

There is no mention of a debt in the Greek text, therefore there should not be in the English text. However when you translate you get the bias of the translator.


Where does Scripture tell us that sin can be paid for?

pc_benz
Jan 21st 2009, 02:46 AM
That is a poor translation there,


Colossians 2:14 ( KJV ) 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Here's Young's literal translation,

Colossians 2:14 ( YLT ) 14having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

There is no mention of a debt in the Greek text, therefore there should not be in the English text. However when you translate you get the bias of the translator.


Where does Scripture tell us that sin can be paid for?

Butch this means the same thing "the handwriting of ordinances" or "canceling the record of debt."

The greek word used here is cheirographon which means literally:

a handwritten document, legal note, bond, certificate of debt.

Obivously I could argue the KJV and YLT are poor translations. This will not get us anywhere.


Where does Scripture tell us that sin can be paid for?

So are you saying sin does not need to be paid for? You do know what sin is right?

By the way, handwriting of ordinances - sounds like a legal term to me.

pc_benz
Jan 21st 2009, 03:09 AM
I was curious so I looked up the definition of "ordinance" and this is what I found.

Ordinance

1 a: an authoritative decree or direction : order (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/order) b: a law set forth by a governmental authority ; specifically : a municipal regulation
2: something ordained or decreed by fate or a deity

I once heard Marshall Foster say, "God's law (ordinances) cannot be broken, God's law (ordinances) breaks you."

It is just an illusion when we break God's law-ordinaces (sin) and nothing happens. Once we die we will be judged and all our sin will have to be paid for some how. This is the Gospel Truth. No one will escape God's judgment except those who have the Advocate.

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 03:24 AM
pc_benz
pc_benz[--- Butch this means the same thing "the handwriting of ordinances" or "canceling the record of debt."

The greek word used here is cheirographon which means literally:

a handwritten document, legal note, bond, certificate of debt.


My friend, the handwriting of ordinances is the "law," the OT law.

If we accept your definition, can you please show me Paul's teaching that we owe a debt?


pc_benz[---Obivously I could argue the KJV and YLT are poor translations. This will not get us anywhere.

You could argue it, however, Young's is a "literal" translation,



pc_benz[---So are you saying sin does not need to be paid for? You do know what sin is right?

That's not the answer, can you show me where Scripture teaches that we are to pay for sins?


pc_benz[---By the way, handwriting of ordinances - sounds like a legal term to me.


It is a legal term it is the law.

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 03:27 AM
I was curious so I looked up the definition of "ordinance" and this is what I found.

Ordinance

1 a: an authoritative decree or direction : order (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/order) b: a law set forth by a governmental authority ; specifically : a municipal regulation
2: something ordained or decreed by fate or a deity

I once heard Marshall Foster say, "God's law (ordinances) cannot be broken, God's law (ordinances) breaks you."

It is just an illusion when we break God's law-ordinaces (sin) and nothing happens. Once we die we will be judged and all our sin will have to be paid for some how. This is the Gospel Truth. No one will escape God's judgment except those who have the Advocate.

I agree all will be judged, however, I disagree regarding the sin, I don't see where it is paid for, I see where it is forgiven.

pc_benz
Jan 21st 2009, 04:24 AM
My friend, the handwriting of ordinances is the "law," the OT law.

Come on Butch, is there a NT law?

If we accept your definition, can you please show me Paul's teaching that we owe a debt?

I did not define it, I just showed the greek word.

You could argue it, however, Young's is a "literal" translation,

So is the ESV and the NAS. What's your point? Just because one translation says literal does not make it better than others.

That's not the answer, can you show me where Scripture teaches that we are to pay for sins?

Conceed this point, I will continue to look. Let me ask you a question. If the law is broken what has to happen? Here on earth in our courtrooms. Man cannot pay for sin or atone for sin that will make him right with God. Enter Jesus.

It is a legal term it is the law.

Again what happens when the law is broken?

I agree all will be judged, however, I disagree regarding the sin, I don't see where it is paid for, I see where it is forgiven.

It's not all forgiven, so what happens to the sin that is not forgiven?

9Marksfan
Jan 21st 2009, 11:53 AM
God doesn't condemn anyone.

They condemn themselves to hell by choosing to reject Christ.

What about this passage then?

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power 2 Thess 1:7b-9 NKJV



No human can pay the penalty for sin.

Agreed - that's why we need Christ!


The debt for all sin is paid. Whether sinners choose to avail themselves of grace or not is an entirely different issue.

So they condemn themselves for their unbelief - but hasn't that been dealt with on the cross? See pc benz's post on the same point.

LookingUp
Jan 21st 2009, 06:03 PM
Interesting idea no doubt. Teens are teens no matter what century.


Hey I asked a friend of mine who is an attorney if someone broke the law and let's say there was a legal demand of $100.00 fine or a day in prison, could the "law" or legal demand be rejected by the criminal? He said the criminal could reject it, but if someone else paid the fine the criminals rejection would not matter. The law is satisified no matter who pays it, and the criminal cannot over ride the law by rejecting it. So if I pay the $100.00 fine, legally the law has been satisfied and it does not matter if the person who broke the law allows me to do it or not. Once I pay the fine, the law has no recourse agaisnt the criminal.Well if we knew for certain that our manmade Gentile laws accurately exemplified God's laws, we would have ourselves a little help with some of these questions. Any time we use real-life examples from our flawed system of running things, we need to be cautious how widely we apply them to help us see how God runs things. What makes sense to us doesn’t necessarily mean it makes sense to God.

Something to keep in mind with all of this is the main theme which runs throughout the Holy Scriptures – a relationship built on love and trust. Forced love is not love at all.

LookingUp
Jan 21st 2009, 06:52 PM
Please do not stone me!Well if the rocks fit… wear ‘em. Wait a minute… I don’t need to stone you. The Lord died for that sin too!

LookingUp
Jan 21st 2009, 07:43 PM
What about this passage then?...


…So they condemn themselves for their unbelief - but hasn't that been dealt with on the cross? See pc benz's post on the same point.Christ died for all sin including unbelief, but unbelief isn’t the reason the sinner is condemned to hell. Not having eternal life is the reason they are condemned to hell.

Forgiveness doesn’t erase the result of the sin.

Sin of murder – those he killed are still dead
Sin of adultery – the act cannot be erased
Sin of lying – the results of the lies already did the damage
Sin of unbelief in Savior – name not found in book of life

The Lord can forgive the murderer for what he has done but He does not take away the result of his sin. The Lord can forgive the one who lacks belief in Him but He does not take away the result of the sin. Unbelief results in one’s name not being found in the Book of Life.

At the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) people from Hades are released to stand before the Judge, Jesus Christ (John 5:22). First, they are judged according to their works to see if their works justify their release from eternal judgment (Rev. 20:13). As we know, there will be no justification based on works (Rom. 3:20). Next, the Book of Life is searched to see if they qualify for eternal life. Their name is not found in the Book of Life due to the result of their unbelief and therefore they are sentenced to the Lake of Fire.

In this entire process at judgment, notice that Scripture makes no reference at all to sin but instead refers first to works and then to life (Rev. 20:15). Sin has no place as a determining factor at this judgment. Why is that? Because the Judge, Christ Jesus, has taken away the sin of the world. One is not condemned to hell because he is a sinner. One is condemned to hell because his name is not found in the Book of Life.

pc_benz
Jan 21st 2009, 08:09 PM
LookingUp you are just playing with words.


Christ died for all sin including unbelief, but unbelief isn’t the reason the sinner is condemned to hell. Not having eternal life is the reason they are condemned to hell.

Why does a person not have eternal life? Is it not because they are "dead in their sins" and lack of belief. Unbelief is a sin.


Sin of unbelief in Savior – name not found in book of life

Then Christ did not die for this sin.


Because the Judge, Christ Jesus, has taken away the sin of the world. One is not condemned to hell because he is a sinner. One is condemned to hell because his name is not found in the Book of Life.

Why is the name not recorded in the book of life? I still do not understand how Christ atoned or died for "all" the sin of "all" the world, but then someone dies in their unbelief and goes to hell.

Christ death makes more sense when He is atoning for "all" the sin of His sheep. He came and died for His sheep.

RabbiKnife
Jan 21st 2009, 08:30 PM
Why does your position "make more sense"?

Do you believe that a penalty must be paid for sin?

If so, do you believe that a human has the capacity to pay for a infinite affront to a Holy God?

pc_benz
Jan 21st 2009, 08:47 PM
Why does your position "make more sense"?

Do you believe that a penalty must be paid for sin?

If so, do you believe that a human has the capacity to pay for a infinite affront to a Holy God?

It only makes more sense to me :(

Yes sin needs to be atoned for because God is just and it would be un-just to allow sin to go un-punished.

No human can pay this fine or atone for breaking God's law, and put them in a right standing with God.

When God's law is broken by man there needs to be an atonement (Enter Christ). Since Christ was holy and divine, His death can and does cover all sin for those it's given. This is why hell is eternal, because the law of the Holy Being that is being violated is eternal.

This is why Christ came. To atone and become the perfect sacrifice. Only a sinless person could atone for sin.

RabbiKnife
Jan 21st 2009, 08:54 PM
Then what is the point of hell.

If a human is in hell for all eternity, there is still no end to the need to pay for sin, thus the debt for sin can never be satisfied.

According to your definition, it would be unjust to allow this sin to be unpunished, yet according to your definition, sin always remains.

Paul teaches us that in the coming resurrection, sin is no more. Sin cannot continue to exist if it must still be atoned for, and humans certainly cannot atone for sin.

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 09:00 PM
pc_benz---Come on Butch, is there a NT law?

Christ did not take away a NT law, He took away the OT law.




pc_benz---I did not define it, I just showed the greek word.

In order to use that definition, it needs to be in context with what Paul is saying. So we must find where he taught that we owed a debt.



pc_benz---So is the ESV and the NAS. What's your point? Just because one translation says literal does not make it better than others.

There is really no point to arguing translaion's since they contain the bias of the translators




pc_benz---Conceed this point, I will continue to look. Let me ask you a question. If the law is broken what has to happen?

Punishment, Which Paul tells us is death.


pc_benz---Here on earth in our courtrooms. Man cannot pay for sin or atone for sin that will make him right with God. Enter Jesus.

Agreed, man cannot atone for sin.



pc_benz---Again what happens when the law is broken?

Punishment.



pc_benz---It's not all forgiven, so what happens to the sin that is not forgiven?

I didn't say it was all forgiven, I said I don't see where sin is paid for.

LookingUp
Jan 22nd 2009, 12:59 AM
LookingUp you are just playing with words.I’m not playing. I'm trying to use some level of logic without infringing on what I know to be true of God, which is not always possible. Sometimes our own logic must be reevaluated in order to avoid violating what we know to be true of God according to Scripture. If we are unable to fit Him into the cleverly designed puzzle we have created with our carefully crafted exegesis without destroying the prime essence of who we know God to be, we need to reconsider our conclusions at the very least.


Why does a person not have eternal life? Is it not because they are "dead in their sins" and lack of belief. Unbelief is a sin.I think you’re half right. A person does not lack eternal life because of the sin called “unbelief”. A person lacks eternal life because they are dead in their sins, which means their name is not written in the Book of Life. Unbelief doesn’t cause us to be dead in our sins. We start out dead in our sins. We start out without eternal life. The sin of unbelief doesn’t take away something we never had. Faith gives us something we previously did not have.

What you are saying is that a person does not have eternal life because of unbelief. In other words, unbelief causes one to not have eternal life – as if one ever had a right to it in the first place. Sin, of any kind, does not cause us to lack eternal life. One is not condemned because he is a sinner, he is a sinner because he is dead in his sins. Because he is dead in his sins, he is condemned to hell.

You see, Christ has taken away the sin of the world. The sinner is forgiven, but this forgiveness does not give life to one who is dead in his sins. The result of his sin remains until he chooses Life (Christ). Just like the victim of the forgiven murderer is still physically dead due to the 'now forgiven' sin, the unbeliever is still dead due to his 'now forgiven' sin of unbelief. The results of the sin remain. It is not the forgiven sin that condemns him. He is sentenced to the Lake of Fire because he was still dead in his sin. His name was not found in the Book of Life which would have saved him.


Then Christ did not die for this sin.As I pointed out above, just because our Lord died for sins does not mean the results of those sins are eliminated.


Why is the name not recorded in the book of life? I still do not understand how Christ atoned or died for "all" the sin of "all" the world, but then someone dies in their unbelief and goes to hell.Where in Scripture does it say that Christ’s atonement means that the results of our sins are removed?


Christ death makes more sense when He is atoning for "all" the sin of His sheep. He came and died for His sheep.Remaining steadfast in our conviction of what we know to be true of God’s character is more important than making sure our sensibilities are appeased. But in all things, it’s important for you to go where the Holy Spirit leads you.

pc_benz
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:58 PM
You see, Christ has taken away the sin of the world.


Where in Scripture does it say that Christ’s atonement means that the results of our sins are removed?

I do not see how these two comments are consistent with what you are saying?


Sin, of any kind, does not cause us to lack eternal life. One is not condemned because he is a sinner, he is a sinner because he is dead in his sins. Because he is dead in his sins, he is condemned to hell.

:confused


The result of his sin remains until he chooses Life (Christ).

So you are saying a dead person can make himself alive by choosing? Where is God in this process, sitting on the sidelines biting His nails hoping man chooses life?


As I pointed out above, just because our Lord died for sins does not mean the results of those sins are eliminated.


Where in Scripture does it say that Christ’s atonement means that the results of our sins are removed?

Please explain your point of "results" again.


Remaining steadfast in our conviction of what we know to be true of God’s character

What is true of God's character to you LookingUp?

pc_benz
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:08 PM
Let me just get back to the main point. If Christ said "It's Finished" what did He mean?

To answer this correctly you will need to explain a few things:

Why did He come?
What did He do while He was here?
Why did He suffer and die?
What did He teach us about God and man?