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chad
Jan 19th 2009, 11:35 PM
This is a question I have had for a long time now regarding prayer.

When we pray, who is it that we are meant to pray to? God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit? :confused

If we pray to God, are we leaving Jesus out. If we pray to Jesus, are we meant to be directing the prayer to God and where does the Holy spirit comes into the equation - regarding prayer?

JesusPhreak27
Jan 19th 2009, 11:43 PM
When I pray I pray directly to God (remember that once the curtain was torn when Jesus died on the cross that opened God up to ALL believers not just the Priests).

Now when I end a prayer I end it in Jesus' name because in the Gospels Jesus tells us that if we ask anything in His name it will be done.

I hope this helps?

Psalms Fan
Jan 20th 2009, 02:17 AM
Jesus prayed to the Father by the Holy Spirit. We, because of Jesus, can address the Father directly in Jesus' name.

I'll tend to pray to all three Persons, but typically I use the "model" that I typed above.

Dani H
Jan 20th 2009, 02:51 AM
To the Father, in Jesus' name with the help of the Holy Spirit.

crossnote
Jan 20th 2009, 06:00 AM
This is a question I have had for a long time now regarding prayer.

When we pray, who is it that we are meant to pray to? God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit? :confused

If we pray to God, are we leaving Jesus out. If we pray to Jesus, are we meant to be directing the prayer to God and where does the Holy spirit comes into the equation - regarding prayer?

Since when is Jesus not God?
Technically, we pray to the Father through Jesus. A good Scripture to keep in mind is-
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1Ti 2:5)
So just as Jesus is the God/man his role as mediator between us and God (Trinity) is accepted by God in His humanity.

chad
Jan 20th 2009, 09:06 AM
Yeah, the trinity always confuses me. We can pray to God, and also to Jesus, but Jesus is also God.

So technically, if were praying to Jesus, we are praying to God at the same time. :confused


Since when is Jesus not God?
Technically, we pray to the Father through Jesus. A good Scripture to keep in mind is-
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1Ti 2:5)
So just as Jesus is the God/man his role as mediator between us and God (Trinity) is accepted by God in His humanity.

CoffeeCat
Jan 20th 2009, 07:40 PM
I pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, with the understanding that God's sent His Holy Spirit to both help us and convict us. Honestly, there have been many times in my life when I've felt weak, been very low or at my worst, and simply cried out "God" or "Lord" and trusted that God would understand my heart, regardless of the words I used. We ALL hit that point at some time or another.

Emanate
Jan 20th 2009, 07:52 PM
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Emanate
Jan 20th 2009, 07:53 PM
Since when is Jesus not God?

did someone say that?

Emanate
Jan 20th 2009, 07:55 PM
Now when I end a prayer I end it in Jesus' name because in the Gospels Jesus tells us that if we ask anything in His name it will be done.


I am not sure that ending a prayer "in the name of Jesus" is the meaning of "in my name". It means to pray by his authority, as his disciple.

JesusPhreak27
Jan 20th 2009, 08:06 PM
I am not sure that ending a prayer "in the name of Jesus" is the meaning of "in my name". It means to pray by his authority, as his disciple.

I dont suppose it makes much of a difference either way?

BroRog
Jan 20th 2009, 08:30 PM
This is a question I have had for a long time now regarding prayer.

When we pray, who is it that we are meant to pray to? God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit? :confused

If we pray to God, are we leaving Jesus out. If we pray to Jesus, are we meant to be directing the prayer to God and where does the Holy spirit comes into the equation - regarding prayer?

Chad,

I agree with those who say that we should pray to the Father, because Jesus taught us to pray, "Our Father, who art in heaven . . . " etc.

Having said that, I guarantee that he will hear you no matter what you say. :)

When I first became a believer, I pictured God as a king sitting on a throne with Angelic guards all around living in a huge castle surrounded by great halls and large doors than no human could move. I wanted to be forgiven and given another chance (not even thinking about eternal salvation at the time. My theology was very limited.) All I wanted was forgiveness and another chance at being a good person. And so, I actually prayed to the angels if they might take a message to God for me. I pictured God as being so holy, so above me, so great, and so powerful, and in my mind I was such a sinner, so low, and undeserving, I couldn't bring myself to asking him directly. I honestly thought that my only hope was if an angel could get close enough to him so as to hear my petition. So I said something like, "Angels in heaven, please take my message to God. Ask him if he will please forgive me and if he will please help me in my despair to become a better person." I believe he heard me.

Since then, of course, I know that God is much bigger than even I imagined at first, big enough to hear my prayer from anywhere and wise enough to even interpret my emotional blabbering grunts, when I am so at my wits end I can't say anything meaningful. But I feel free to come before the throne of grace myself now.

I guess I just want to be encouraging to you and others reading this. If you want to talk to God, pray to the Father. He will hear you. And if you pray to Jesus, he will hear you too. And if, in foolish ignorance you pray as I did, he will hear that too. God can relate to you where ever you are at. I can personally attest to this myself. I was foolish and ignorant and didn't know anything except I hated being a sinner and wanted to be a better person and God was able to meet me there and hear my plea anyway.

Just be humble and honest. That's it.

crossnote
Jan 21st 2009, 06:04 AM
Yeah, the trinity always confuses me. We can pray to God, and also to Jesus, but Jesus is also God.

So technically, if were praying to Jesus, we are praying to God at the same time. :confused

Chad to simplify it. Picture praying to the Father, yet having His Son as the go-between. Yet all in all you are praying to God.

crossnote
Jan 21st 2009, 06:08 AM
did someone say that?

Yes, in the very first post of this thread, Chad asked..."When we pray, who is it that we are meant to pray to? God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?"

The question implies that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God. The better way to ask the question would have been, "When we pray, who is it that we are meant to pray to? The Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?", since they are all the ONE God.

chad
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:51 AM
Thanks all for you replies. I recieved an answer today from Mt 6:9-13

(Mat 6:9 NIV) "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, (10) your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. (11) Give us today our daily bread. (12) Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'

Psalms Fan
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:59 AM
I think it was C.S. Lewis who gave a prayer analogy similar to the following:

The Father is like an island out across the water. Christ is like the ship in which we sail to get to the island. And the Holy Spirit is like the wind in the sails, pushing the boat to the island.

My heart's Desire
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:48 AM
I pray to Father God in Jesus name. John 16:22-28 is an interesting passage of Scripture on Prayer, yet plainly says, ask the Father in Jesus Name.

9Marksfan
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:52 PM
Jesus prayed to the Father by the Holy Spirit. We, because of Jesus, can address the Father directly in Jesus' name.

I'll tend to pray to all three Persons, but typically I use the "model" that I typed above.

Hmm - is there any authority for us to pray TO the Spirit? IN the Spirit, yes (Eph 6:18, Jude 20), but TO?

There is also authority to pray directly to Christ - Acts 7:59 and 2 Cor 12:8, where "Lord" is kurios, the name Paul generally uses for Christ.

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 01:05 AM
For anyone that would say we can pray to the Spirit.....can you produce just one example from scripture? I know it's popular these days, but a lot of things are, I'm just sayin' ;)

Sandusky
Jan 24th 2009, 02:57 AM
For anyone that would say we can pray to the Spirit.....can you produce just one example from scripture? I know it's popular these days, but a lot of things are, I'm just sayin' ;)

Well to this I'd answer...The Holy Spirit is God, and we pray to God. Therefore, of course we can pray to the HS, just as we can pray to the Father and the Son! ;)

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 04:14 AM
that's assumption without scripture

Jesus willingly submits to the Father and says to pray to the Father

what scripture says to or is an example of praying to the Spirit?

Sandusky
Jan 24th 2009, 06:32 PM
that's assumption without scripture

Jesus willingly submits to the Father and says to pray to the Father

what scripture says to or is an example of praying to the Spirit?

Any prayer to God is a prayer to the Holy Spirit. :)

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 06:35 PM
Of course, but that is not addressing the prayer TO the Spirit as we would TO Christ or TO the Father.

Sandusky
Jan 24th 2009, 07:12 PM
Of course, but that is not addressing the prayer TO the Spirit as we would TO Christ or TO the Father.

If it somehow makes you uncomfortable, then I suppose you shouldn't do it. But this really isn't an issue that needs addressing if you believe in the Trinity.

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 07:23 PM
It has nothing to do with believing in 'trinity' but scripture being full of examples of prayer, none of which include a prayer TO the Spirit.

Sandusky
Jan 24th 2009, 08:11 PM
It has nothing to do with believing in 'trinity' but scripture being full of examples of prayer, none of which include a prayer TO the Spirit.

This really isn't an issue. It's God we're praying to. Like I said though, by all means don't pray to God the Holy Spirit if you don't want to.

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 08:27 PM
It's not a question of 'if I don't want to' the question is why do you if there is no example in scripture telling you to? This isn't Burger King -have it your way.

Sandusky
Jan 25th 2009, 03:29 AM
It's not a question of 'if I don't want to' the question is why do you if there is no example in scripture telling you to? This isn't Burger King -have it your way.

Hi again Sirus :)

To answer you again-- any time you're praying to God, you're praying to the Holy Spirit. That's Who He is, so there's absolutely no reason why it's innapropriate to address Him as such.

Just curious...why do you think that addressing God the Holy Spirit is a problem simply because you can't find an example of it in Scripture? I don't understand the reasoning there.

Sirus
Jan 25th 2009, 08:46 AM
Just curious...why do you think that addressing God the Holy Spirit is a problem simply because you can't find an example of it in Scripture? I don't understand the reasoning there.2Timothy 3:15-17

Sandusky
Jan 25th 2009, 05:17 PM
2Timothy 3:15-17

"And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures which can instruct thee to salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice: That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work."

I'm not trying to be difficult here lol. I still don't understand why you have a problem praying to God the Holy Spirit...? :confused

Sirus
Jan 25th 2009, 07:14 PM
Again, there's no examples in scripture.

Sandusky
Jan 27th 2009, 01:54 PM
Again, there's no examples in scripture.

Matt 28:19-- Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 13:14-- The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the charity of God and the communication of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

These are just two of the many verses revealing that the Holy Spirit is Who God is.

But even if we didn't have these examples, there's still no reason to suppose that it's wrong to address God in the person of His Holy Spirit simply because you can't find a suitable example in Scripture.

Neither the 2000-year old Church (whether you believe the Church a visible institution or an invisible body of believers) nor the Scriptures themselves instruct us to use the Bible in that way.

Interesting discussion, though! ;)

9Marksfan
Jan 27th 2009, 02:07 PM
Matt 28:19-- Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 13:14-- The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the charity of God and the communication of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

These are just two of the many verses revealing that the Holy Spirit is Who God is.

But even if we didn't have these examples, there's still no reason to suppose that it's wrong to address God in the person of His Holy Spirit simply because you can't find a suitable example in Scripture.

Neither the 2000-year old Church (whether you believe the Church a visible institution or an invisible body of believers) nor the Scriptures themselves instruct us to use the Bible in that way.

Interesting discussion, though! ;)

Not at all - as far as the Protestant church goes, have you never heard of the regulative principle? And as far as the Scriptures go, how does that passage in Matt 28 go on?

...and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Now - Jesus is saying that He will be with those who teach everything He commands - the corollary is clear if we don't do that. And how did He command us how to pray? "Our Father in Heaven". He also indicated that we could ask HIM for things, so praying to Jesus is fine too.

Did He ever instruct us to pray to God the Holy Spirit? Did He maybe forget to do that? I doubt it. So He clearly didn't mean us to do that.

When we realise that we come to the Father through the Son by the Spirit, then we will have a better understanding of what prayer is about and how the three Persons of the Trinity interact with One another regarding it.

Sandusky
Jan 28th 2009, 12:10 AM
Not at all - as far as the Protestant church goes, have you never heard of the regulative principle?

No, actually I hadn't...so I just did a google search. According to what I've found, the regulative principle holds that God instituted in the Scriptures everything he requires for worship (by explicit command or example in the Bible) and that everything else is prohibited. To be blunt, this sounds like just another man-made doctrine with no Scriptural or historical basis.


And as far as the Scriptures go, how does that passage in Matt 28 go on?

...and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Now - Jesus is saying that He will be with those who teach everything He commands - the corollary is clear if we don't do that. And how did He command us how to pray? "Our Father in Heaven". He also indicated that we could ask HIM for things, so praying to Jesus is fine too.

Yes, "to obey everything I have commanded you" means exactly that. It means don't obey some of it, but obey all of what was commanded. So...where does this preclude addressing God in His person of the Holy Spirit?



Did He ever instruct us to pray to God the Holy Spirit? Did He maybe forget to do that? I doubt it. So He clearly didn't mean us to do that.


Nothing clear about that. It's a conclusion that you've come to on your own. To follow your line of reasoning...Did God mean for us to post on Christian forums? No? Well then clearly He didn't mean for us to do it.

If the Holy Spirit is indeed Who He is, then there's no reason why we shouldn't address Him as such. Any time you're praying to God, you're praying to the Holy Spirit. With all due respect, yall seem to be making up rules to follow about praying that are not confirmed by either Scripture, the Church or (IMO) common sense.

I'm curious...why do you believe in the regulative principle, or why we shouldn't say anything in prayer that isn't expressly commanded or shown in the Bible? Where/how did you come up with this?

Sirus
Jan 28th 2009, 01:22 AM
Yes, "to obey everything I have commanded you" means exactly that. It means don't obey some of it, but obey all of what was commanded. So...where does this preclude addressing God in His person of the Holy Spirit?Because it is not in scripture! Your examples said no such thing at all, not even remotely close.

You posted
2 Cor 13:14-- The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the charity of God and the communication of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.


but communication does not mean speak only with words there. Even the NIV says fellowship.
(KJV) 2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

fellowship, 12
Act_2:42, 1Co_1:9, 2Co_8:4, Eph_3:9 (2), Phi_1:5, Phi_2:1, Phi_3:10, 1Jo_1:3 (2), 1Jo_1:6-7 (2)
communion, 4
1Co_10:16 (2), 2Co_13:14 (2)
communicate, 1
Heb_13:16
communication, 1
Phm_1:6
contribution, 1
Rom_15:26
distribution, 1
2Co_9:13

Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Phm 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

These don't mean speak by words alone but with love, action, fruit.

Sandusky
Jan 28th 2009, 03:12 AM
Because it is not in scripture! Your examples said no such thing at all, not even remotely close.

Yeah, I know Sirus...my examples just showed that God is referred to as the Holy Spirit in Scripture. Therefore, we can address God as the Holy Spirit...as 2000 years of Christians have done.

We simply disagree on the notion that something has to be explicitly commanded or exlemplefied in Scripture in order for it to be acceptable for Christians to do. Christians were worshipping God for a long time before the New Testament was even written.

And, once again, this idea you are arguing for isn't even backed up by Scripture.

paidforinfull
Jan 28th 2009, 03:14 AM
To the Father, in Jesus' name with the help of the Holy Spirit.

The Truth in a nutshell - thanks Dani.

Sirus
Jan 28th 2009, 03:20 AM
Christians were worshipping God for a long time before the New Testament was even written.Right, so why no examples of prayer addressed to the Spirit?

Sandusky
Jan 28th 2009, 03:46 AM
Right, so why no examples of prayer addressed to the Spirit?

Any prayer to God in the Scriptures is an example of a prayer to the Holy Spirit.

I feel we are going around in circles, Sirus. The bottom line is I don't accept the regulative principle of worship. It's not a principle supported by Scripture and IMO tests common sense.

Once again, why do you feel you have to see an example of God addressed as the Holy Spirit in Scripture in order for it to be acceptible for you to do?

Sirus
Jan 28th 2009, 04:10 AM
Any prayer to God in the Scriptures is an example of a prayer to the Holy Spirit.I agree!

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

In verse 3 the Spirit is included in "to God" but it never says

We give thanks to God and the Spirit



Once again, why do you feel you have to see an example of God addressed as the Holy Spirit in Scripture in order for it to be acceptible for you to do?The Spirit is God. I have no problem with that.

one_lost_coin
Jan 28th 2009, 06:11 PM
Psalms Fan did a very good job pointing out how all prayer is Trinitarian in that all the Trinitarian God is present with us when we pray. It is only by the Spirit that we can cry Jesus is Lord and only in Jesus we approach the Father and truly come to know Him as Father. For it is Jesus Christ Himself that reveals to us God as our Father.

But I wonder if some of the confussion as to whether the Holy Spirit can be prayed to is the result of some misunderstanding of the One God in Trinity. Relevant portions from the Athanasian Creed pasted below (It's actually all relevant but I only pasted whats below).

...So the Father is God, the Son is, and the Holy Ghost is. And yet they are not Three, but One. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be and Lord, ... The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding... And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity...

It would seem to say that we can not address the Holy Spirit can not ask Him to come and come into and be part of our Life and to fill us (which is a prayer) would be to treat Him as if He were any less God. It would seem to me that that would be drawing a distinction where it cannot be drawn in a God of Co-eternal Co-equal and above all would destroy the way toward any proper understanding of the perfect unity that exists within the Godhead. How could we ever understand God as existing in perfect unity if we believe one of the persons of the Godhead must be treated as different than the other two.

When in fact the Holy Spirit is truly, entirely and also God. Not only can He be prayed to but is to also be Worshipped.

catholicdude
Jan 28th 2009, 10:46 PM
Outside of the Trinity itself, God is one. So when you pray to Him, whether it be the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, you are praying to all of Them. If you pray to the Father, you pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit, because they are ONE. Sirus' (and several other people's) argument(s) indirectly states either, 1) that the Holy Spirit is not God, or 2) that the Holy Spirit is less God than the other two persons of the Trinity. I'm sure everyone on this board would agree that that is an un-Christian thought. This point is one of many that leads me to believe that the 'regulative principle' (is it the same as sola scriptura?) is wrong.

Pax,
Zach

9Marksfan
Jan 28th 2009, 11:30 PM
Outside of the Trinity itself, God is one. So when you pray to Him, whether it be the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, you are praying to all of Them. If you pray to the Father, you pray to Jesus and the Holy Spirit, because they are ONE. Sirus' (and several other people's) argument(s) indirectly states either, 1) that the Holy Spirit is not God, or 2) that the Holy Spirit is less God than the other two persons of the Trinity. I'm sure everyone on this board would agree that that is an un-Christian thought. This point is one of many that leads me to believe that the 'regulative principle' (is it the same as sola scriptura?) is wrong.

Pax,
Zach

Yes it is the same as sola scriptura. I'm sure I speak for Sirus (and others) when I say that we do NOT believe that he Holy Spirit is not God and we do NOT believe that He is less God than the Father and the Son - they have different roles within the Godhead. Did the Son send the Spirit to die on the cross? No! Did the Spirit send the Father to die on the cross? No! The role of the Holy Spirit in prayer is clearly defined in Scripture and it does NOT mean that He is "less God" than the Father and the Son - Jesus taught us to pray to the Father and Himself - but principally the Father - the NT writers taught the same. It is neither wise nor right for us to go beyond the Scriptures - that is a Protestant principle and can I remind you that this is a Protestant Forum. Be careful in your reply, as your last post bordered on an infraction.....

catholicdude
Jan 29th 2009, 12:50 AM
that is a Protestant principle and can I remind you that this is a Protestant Forum. Be careful in your reply, as your last post bordered on an infraction.....

I have a specific question about this. Why is everyone on this board so closed off to other opinions. You think (or know, so you say) that you are doing what God wills and that Catholics are dead wrong, if they're dead wrong, why are you against correcting their "mistakes"? Every Catholic forum I've been on has been open to having opposing views on there to help show them the right way. Why are the people here against it?

Pax,
Zach

Sandusky
Jan 29th 2009, 02:46 AM
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

In verse 3 the Spirit is included in "to God" but it never says

We give thanks to God and the Spirit

Of course not, because that would be redundant wouldn't it? As you said, God is the Holy Spirit. :)

laundrygirl
Jan 29th 2009, 02:51 AM
If you pray to God, you pray to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Jews used to use a certain word for the Name of God. For example, if they said, "in the Name of God", they would use the word for "Name" there. If it is said in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then all three are incorporated into that same Name. Therefore, if you are going to pray in the Name, you are praying in all three. As God, all three are equal in status and are all three One God.

I believe the Greek word used is "Kyrios", meaning "Lord"; the Hebrews used "Adonai" to prevent from using the Lord's sacred Name in vain. Now the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father are all called Lord. Therefore they are all worthy of the same prayers and such. If you do not think that Jesus or the Holy Spirit should receive prayer, you are thinking of them as something less than God. Both are Kyrios; both are Lord; both we pray in, through, and to.

This is not contrary to Scripture if you also look within the context of the entire Bible.

Sirus
Jan 29th 2009, 04:14 AM
Yes it is the same as sola scriptura. I'm sure I speak for Sirus (and others) when I say that we do NOT believe that he Holy Spirit is not God and we do NOT believe that He is less God than the Father and the Son - they have different roles within the Godhead. Did the Son send the Spirit to die on the cross? No! Did the Spirit send the Father to die on the cross? No! The role of the Holy Spirit in prayer is clearly defined in Scripture and it does NOT mean that He is "less God" than the Father and the Son - Jesus taught us to pray to the Father and Himself - but principally the Father - the NT writers taught the same. It is neither wise nor right for us to go beyond the Scriptures - that is a Protestant principle.....Yes, I agree. I cannot understand how it's I saying the Spirit is not God or less than the Father and Jesus since it is scripture that never shows prayer addressed to the Spirit. :B I honestly don't know how some have come to the conclusion that is what I am saying, even after I have said the opposite. :hmm:

Could this be a translation issue or something? When I exhausted scripture for this study I just used the KJV, ESV, and the TR. I don't think so, it's just a thought.

one_lost_coin
Jan 29th 2009, 07:03 PM
I am not so sure the Holy Spirit is indeed neglected as a focus of our prayers in Scripture.

In prayer we spend time with God speaking to Him and listening to what God has to say also. In prayer we can sit silently in Adoration of God like James, John and Peter. Matthew 17:5: He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him." 6: When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces, and were filled with awe.

or like the Blessed Virgin Mary who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit by whom Jesus was conceived.

or like Mary and the Disciples at Pentecost.

There are a number of examples of the actual words spoken by the Holy Spirit in the Gospels.

Phillip listened to the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:29: And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."

or the too many to mention verses in scripture that say pray to God. Revelation 8: 4: and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

The Holy Spirit is God our prayers rise before Him.

If the Spirit should not be worshiped, how can he divinize me through Baptism? If he should be worshiped, should he not be the object of adoration?

It would be a shame not to know the power of this one prayer "Come Holy Spirit" what a treasure, what peace and what love comes through saying it.

I don't expect you to believe me but you can ask our Lord to teach you if this is true. Pray always in listening and adoration.

9Marksfan
Jan 29th 2009, 07:23 PM
I am not so sure the Holy Spirit is indeed neglected as a focus of our prayers in Scripture.

In prayer we spend time with God speaking to Him and listening to what God has to say also. In prayer we can sit silently in Adoration of God like James, John and Peter. Matthew 17:5: He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him." 6: When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces, and were filled with awe.

or like the Blessed Virgin Mary who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit by whom Jesus was conceived.

or like Mary and the Disciples at Pentecost.

There are a number of examples of the actual words spoken by the Holy Spirit in the Gospels.

Phillip listened to the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:29: And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."

The Spirit is indeed deeply involved in our prayers - He helps us in our weaknesses and we are to "pray in the Spirit (not TO) on all occasions" - I really am quite shocked that many people here are playing fast and loose with the Bible's teaching on prayer - we are given very clear instruction and we are on dangerous ground if we seek to depart from it in any way at all - there are specific roles for Father, Son and Spirit in our prayers and if we choose to jumble them up because we feel that we'll get somewhere by praying to the Spirit that we won't if we simply pray to the Father (and that's the real issue, isn't it?) doesn't authorise us to do that.


or the too many to mention verses in scripture that say pray to God. The Holy Spirit is God.

Yds, but that doesn't mean that we can say "the Spirit became flesh and dwelt among us" - the Word is God too - they're NOT interchangeable!


If the Spirit should not be worshiped, how can he divinize me through Baptism?

What does THAT mean? Deify?!?!?


If he should be worshiped, should he not be the object of adoration?

Yes - but that's not the same as praying to Him iow requesting things - we ask the Father (or the Son) for them and the Spirit HELPS us to pray in accordance with God's will.

9Marksfan
Jan 29th 2009, 07:33 PM
I have a specific question about this. Why is everyone on this board so closed off to other opinions. You think (or know, so you say) that you are doing what God wills and that Catholics are dead wrong, if they're dead wrong, why are you against correcting their "mistakes"? Every Catholic forum I've been on has been open to having opposing views on there to help show them the right way. Why are the people here against it?

Pax,
Zach

We're not against other views here at all - the whole purpose of the Forum is for exchange of views! But there are some views that are restricted to Contro or World Religions, because they are agreed by all the Mods here as being contrary to the Bible's teaching - that's why I warned you of being careful in your reply - I was concerned you might accuse people with my stance of being non-Trinitarian - a very serious allegation, I'm sure you'll agree.

The errors of the RCC are regularly refuted on these Forums - what was your point?

one_lost_coin
Jan 30th 2009, 03:56 PM
Quote:
If the Spirit should not be worshiped, how can he divinize me through Baptism?
What does THAT mean? Deify?!?!?



It is the Eastern Churches equivalent of sanctification. It is a quote by St. Gregory of Nazianzus. A fuller version can be read following.

St. Gregory Nazianzus, Oratio 31, 28 This, then, is my position with regard to these things, and I hope it may be always my position, and that of whosoever is dear to me; to worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, Three Persons, One Godhead, undivided in honour and glory and substance and kingdom, as one of our own inspired philosophers not long departed shewed. Let him not see the rising of the Morning Star, as Scripture saith, nor the glory of its brightness, who is otherwise minded, or who follows the temper of the times, at one time being of one mind and of another at another time, and thinking unsoundly in the highest matters. For if He is not to be worshipped, how can He deify me by Baptism? but if He is to be worshipped, surely He is an Object of adoration, and if an Object of adoration He must be God; the one is linked to the other, a truly golden and saving chain. And indeed from the Spirit comes our New Birth, and from the New Birth our new creation, and from the new creation our deeper knowledge of the dignity of Him from Whom it is derived.

I would wonder how is it that the Holy Spirit who comes to live in us, who works in our lives, who we come to know and experience in our lives who we worship and adore (quote "Adoration is the first attitude of man acknowledging that he is a creature before his Creator. It exalts the greatness of the Lord who made us and the almighty power of the Savior who sets us free from evil. Adoration is homage of the spirit to the "King of Glory,"respectful silence in the presence of the "ever greater" God. Adoration of the thrice-holy and sovereign God of love blends with humility and gives assurance to our supplications." end quote. It is in fact a most deep and wonderful experience of prayer.) who we become so intimite with that our bodies become the temple of the Holy Spirit could not even receive a simple prayer of Thankyou from us.

It would seem to be such a terrible loss that we could not even thank the third person of the Trinity in the simple gesture of love that we could thank our Heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The proposed line of demarcation is that it has to be explicitly written in the bible criteria would seem to be so arbitrary. You claim to accept the doctrine of the Trinity please so me the specific verse in the bible that tells me it is so. How is it you can apply your criteria so flippantly?

one_lost_coin
Jan 30th 2009, 04:05 PM
This is a most natural and heartfelt prayer of thankyou and petition to the Holy Spirit by St. Anselm.

NOW, O Thou Love that art the bond of the Godhead, Thou that art the holy Love which is betwixt the Father Almighty and His most blessed Son, Thou Almighty Spirit, the Comforter, the most merciful consoler of them that mourn, do Thou enter by Thy mighty power into the innermost sanctuary of my heart, and of Thy goodness dwell therein, making glad with the brightness of Thy glorious light the neglected corners thereof, and making fruitful by the visitation of Thine abundant dew the fields that are parched and barren with long continued drought. Pierce with the arrows of Thy love the secret chambers of the inner man. Let the entrance of Thy healthful flames set the sluggish heart alight, and the burning fire of Thy sacred inspiration enlighten it and consume all that is within me, both of mind and body. Give me drink of Thy pleasures as out of the river; so that I may take no pleasure hereafter in the poisonous sweetness of worldly delights. Give sentence with me, God, and defend my cause against the ungodly people. Teach me to do the thing that pleaseth Thee, for Thou art my God. I believe that in whomsoever Thou dost dwell, Thou makest there an habitation for the Father and for the Son. Blessed is he who shall be counted worthy to entertain Thee; because by Thee the Father and the Son shall make their abode with him. Come, O come, most gracious consoler of the soul that sorroweth, Thou refuge in due time of trouble. Come, Thou cleanser from sin, Thou healer of wounds. Come, Thou strength of the weak, Thou lifter up of them that fall. Come, Thou teacher of the lowly and destroyer of the proud. Come, Thou gracious father of the fatherless, Thou gentle defender of the cause of the widows. Come, Thou hope of the poor, and cherisher of the sick. Come, Thou star of the seafarer, Thou haven of the shipwrecked. Come, Thou that art the only glory of them that live, the only salvation of them that die. Come, most holy Spirit, come and have mercy upon me, and fit me to receive Thee: and graciously grant to me that my littleness may be pleasing to Thy greatness, my weakness to Thy strength, according to the multitude of Thy mercies, through Jesus Christ my Saviour, who liveth and reigneth with the Father in the Unity that is of Thee, world without end. Amen.

one_lost_coin
Jan 30th 2009, 04:11 PM
Yds, but that doesn't mean that we can say "the Spirit became flesh and dwelt among us" - the Word is God too - they're NOT interchangeable!



They are One. "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith". The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men "and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin".

enter into the mystery.

Or are you ready to go on record as saying that Jesus is seperate in some way? Are you misunderstanding persons as regard the Trinity?

because you may want to note that a special understanding of persons had to be revealed for use in understanding of the revelation of God in Himself there is no corresponding human understanding of persons in the relation of man to each other to draw upon. It was a completely brand new understanding and concept in all of human history a true revelation revealed only to the Church and offered to all mankind. One would expect no less.

one_lost_coin
Jan 30th 2009, 04:38 PM
Yes - but that's not the same as praying to Him iow requesting things - we ask the Father (or the Son) for them and the Spirit HELPS us to pray in accordance with God's will.


As a final question I would like to ask what you mean by this? It is indeed prayer. Are you saying that we can only offer certain prayers to the Holy Spirit and not others? I need clarification.

and as one final challenge. Where in the Sacred Scripture does it say we cannot pettition the Holy Spirit? I have done a bible word search for every use of the Name Holy Spirit and it doesn't come up even once. All I have is you word that this is true.

9Marksfan
Jan 30th 2009, 05:15 PM
It is the Eastern Churches equivalent of sanctification. It is a quote by St. Gregory of Nazianzus. A fuller version can be read following.

St. Gregory Nazianzus, Oratio 31, 28 This, then, is my position with regard to these things, and I hope it may be always my position, and that of whosoever is dear to me; to worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, Three Persons, One Godhead, undivided in honour and glory and substance and kingdom, as one of our own inspired philosophers not long departed shewed. Let him not see the rising of the Morning Star, as Scripture saith, nor the glory of its brightness, who is otherwise minded, or who follows the temper of the times, at one time being of one mind and of another at another time, and thinking unsoundly in the highest matters. For if He is not to be worshipped, how can He deify me by Baptism? but if He is to be worshipped, surely He is an Object of adoration, and if an Object of adoration He must be God; the one is linked to the other, a truly golden and saving chain. And indeed from the Spirit comes our New Birth, and from the New Birth our new creation, and from the new creation our deeper knowledge of the dignity of Him from Whom it is derived.

So you are deified by God, then? A bit new age, isn't it? How does "baptise" = "deify" = "divinize"?!?!


I would wonder how is it that the Holy Spirit who comes to live in us, who works in our lives, who we come to know and experience in our lives who we worship and adore (quote "Adoration is the first attitude of man acknowledging that he is a creature before his Creator. It exalts the greatness of the Lord who made us and the almighty power of the Savior who sets us free from evil. Adoration is homage of the spirit to the "King of Glory,"respectful silence in the presence of the "ever greater" God. Adoration of the thrice-holy and sovereign God of love blends with humility and gives assurance to our supplications." end quote. It is in fact a most deep and wonderful experience of prayer.) who we become so intimite with that our bodies become the temple of the Holy Spirit could not even receive a simple prayer of Thankyou from us.

No problem there - there are different types of prayer - I'm really talking about supplication and intercession. That should be to the Fathr or the Son.


It would seem to be such a terrible loss that we could not even thank the third person of the Trinity in the simple gesture of love that we could thank our Heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

As I said, no problem with that.


The proposed line of demarcation is that it has to be explicitly written in the bible criteria would seem to be so arbitrary.

I'm sorry you have such a low view of the Word of God. What He says I will do. What he forbids I will avoid. When He is silent, I will not assume.


You claim to accept the doctrine of the Trinity please show me the specific verse in the bible that tells me it is so. How is it you can apply your criteria so flippantly?

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 Jn 5:7 NKJV

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Matt 28:19 NKJV

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. 2 Cor 13:14 NKJV

Sandusky
Jan 31st 2009, 01:23 PM
The Holy Spirit is God, the church has addressed him as such for a couple thousand years, so it seems like some of these arguments are people thinking a bit too hard and applying arbitrary rules of their own making to the worship of God.

Think about it- who made up this rule?

Also I hope everyone here is receiving the Eucharist regularly as Christ and Paul explicitly instruct us all to do in the Bible.

9Marksfan
Feb 2nd 2009, 03:39 PM
The Holy Spirit is God, the church has addressed him as such for a couple thousand years, so it seems like some of these arguments are people thinking a bit too hard and applying arbitrary rules of their own making to the worship of God.

Think about it- who made up this rule?

What rule?


Also I hope everyone here is receiving the Eucharist regularly as Christ and Paul explicitly instruct us all to do in the Bible.

Er - relevance to the thread?!?