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reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 04:51 AM
Of course i believe the opposite, but i would like to see Scriptures that are in support of man being born with a sinless nature. Perhaps i will be convinced to change my views

threebigrocks
Jan 20th 2009, 04:58 AM
Well that title gave me a small palpitation! :lol:

No man born of man is sinless. Christ wasn't conceived as you and I were - men (woman) - by a man, but of the Spirit, of God.

Matthew 1
9And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.


2 Corinthians 5
21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Nanoson
Jan 20th 2009, 05:09 AM
it is the fact that we are born with the nature to sin that we need god no matter who we are or who we were raised by

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 05:13 AM
it is the fact that we are born with the nature to sin that we need god no matter who we are or who we were raised by

lol i believe with you, but i am just using this thread to give those with an alternative view a chance to Scripturaly support their position. I have seen there are a few on this site who dont believe that we are born with a corrupted nature (which of course would be related to Adam)

so all we have to do is see if there is Scripture that supports men being born with a sinless nature

Nanoson
Jan 20th 2009, 05:26 AM
i don't believe there is unless

A. There reworded it to change it's meaning
or
B. It refers to Christ who is an exemption to the rule because though is man he is also God

sheina maidle
Jan 20th 2009, 05:27 AM
lol i believe with you, but i am just using this thread to give those with an alternative view a chance to Scripturaly support their position. I have seen there are a few on this site who dont believe that we are born with a corrupted nature (which of course would be related to Adam)

so all we have to do is see if there is Scripture that supports men being born with a sinless nature
I have also seen this doctrine on other forums and in some chat rooms. Seems that those who believe this haven't read Romans 5:12:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

TrustingFollower
Jan 20th 2009, 05:28 AM
lol i believe with you, but i am just using this thread to give those with an alternative view a chance to Scripturaly support their position. I have seen there are a few on this site who dont believe that we are born with a corrupted nature (which of course would be related to Adam)

so all we have to do is see if there is Scripture that supports men being born with a sinless nature
All were born with a sin nature even Adam. Paul illustrates it in Romans using himself as the example, but the example is the very same commandment Adam had.

Romans 7:7-11 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." (8) But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. (9) I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. (10) The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. (11) For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Adam had one rule, don't eat of the tree of good and evil. That rule comes down to do not covet. Adam broke that command as God knew he would. We are no different than Adam. We have the same sin nature he had.

Clydson
Jan 20th 2009, 05:29 AM
Of course i believe the opposite, but i would like to see Scriptures that are in support of man being born with a sinless nature. Perhaps i will be convinced to change my views
Greetings.

All men are born with a sinful nature, flesh and blood; including the man Jesus. Perhaps a word study of "sinful nature" might help. Exactly what, according to scripture, does "sinful nature" mean?

Jake

threebigrocks
Jan 20th 2009, 05:33 AM
Greetings.

All men are born with a sinful nature, flesh and blood; including the man Jesus. Perhaps a word study of "sinful nature" might help. Exactly what, according to scripture, does "sinful nature" mean?

Jake

How is it that Christ was sinful when scripture clearly says He was sinless?

Hebrews 4
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Nanoson
Jan 20th 2009, 05:38 AM
How is it that Christ was sinful when scripture clearly says He was sinless?

Hebrews 4
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

christ was tempted by his humanly sinful nature but due to his divineness never actually sinned, he always rose above the nature

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 05:46 AM
How is it that Christ was sinful when scripture clearly says He was sinless?

Hebrews 4
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

it is my understanding that the sin of Adam is spread through the head male. There is something about the male that is significant. When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, her eyes were not opened until Adam also ate. It wasnt until the head also sinned that the woman was effected. SO Jesus did not have a sinful nature because he was not born of a human man. Also the Bible says he came in the likeness of sinful flesh not a sinful nature. there is a difference between the sinful flesh, our physical bodies, and sinful nature ( a heart or inner nature that is sinful) Jesus was concieved of incorruptable seed

Clydson
Jan 20th 2009, 06:09 AM
How is it that Christ was sinful when scripture clearly says He was sinless?

Hebrews 4
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
I suggest you learn the meaning, according to scripture, of "sinful nature".

Here's a little help. If my memory serves me correctly, the NIV translation was the first to use the phrase "sinful nature". Consider;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
NIV

There is also a footnote at "sinful nature" which states;

Rom 7:5
7:5 a Or the flesh; also in verse 25
NIV

Now let's consider the same passage in the KJV;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
KJV

Our "sinful nature" is simple our flesh and blood body or "outward man", which Jesus also shared in. It doesn't mean he committed sin, but rather took on the form of flesh and blood.

Being "controlled by the sinful nature" is merely choosing to be slave to sin, Rom 6:16.

Jake

TrustingFollower
Jan 20th 2009, 01:47 PM
I suggest you learn the meaning, according to scripture, of "sinful nature".

Here's a little help. If my memory serves me correctly, the NIV translation was the first to use the phrase "sinful nature". Consider;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
NIV

There is also a footnote at "sinful nature" which states;

Rom 7:5
7:5 a Or the flesh; also in verse 25
NIV

Now let's consider the same passage in the KJV;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
KJV

Our "sinful nature" is simple our flesh and blood body or "outward man", which Jesus also shared in. It doesn't mean he committed sin, but rather took on the form of flesh and blood.

Being "controlled by the sinful nature" is merely choosing to be slave to sin, Rom 6:16.

Jake
Your understanding of what the sin nature is incorrect. Sin nature is not a flesh thing, but rather a spiritual thing. When we come to Christ and are made anew we crucify the old man which is the sin nature and are give a new heart. Paul shows this if you read a little further in Romans 7. His flesh still sins, but he no longer considers that to be where he walks. Paul states that he serves God with his mind while his flesh serve the law of sin.

Romans 7:21-25 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. (22) For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, (23) but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. (24) Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (25) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Simply put sin nature is where our spirit sows to. Are we going to allow our spirit to be subject to the will pf the flesh and fulfill just the desires of the flesh or are we going to sow to the heavenly and deny the fleshy desires. It is all a matter of where our hearts are and the focus of our minds being continually on Christ.

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 03:29 PM
I suggest you learn the meaning, according to scripture, of "sinful nature".

Here's a little help. If my memory serves me correctly, the NIV translation was the first to use the phrase "sinful nature". Consider;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
NIV

There is also a footnote at "sinful nature" which states;

Rom 7:5
7:5 a Or the flesh; also in verse 25
NIV

Now let's consider the same passage in the KJV;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
KJV

Our "sinful nature" is simple our flesh and blood body or "outward man", which Jesus also shared in. It doesn't mean he committed sin, but rather took on the form of flesh and blood.

Being "controlled by the sinful nature" is merely choosing to be slave to sin, Rom 6:16.

Jake

but dont you think there is a difference between being concieved by the Holy Spirit and being concieved by a normal fleshly man and woman?

is the "nature" of a man concieved by the Holy Spirit

exactly the same as the "nature" of a man concieved by a normal man?

threebigrocks
Jan 20th 2009, 04:15 PM
christ was tempted by his humanly sinful nature but due to his divineness never actually sinned, he always rose above the nature


it is my understanding that the sin of Adam is spread through the head male. There is something about the male that is significant. When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, her eyes were not opened until Adam also ate. It wasnt until the head also sinned that the woman was effected. SO Jesus did not have a sinful nature because he was not born of a human man. Also the Bible says he came in the likeness of sinful flesh not a sinful nature. there is a difference between the sinful flesh, our physical bodies, and sinful nature ( a heart or inner nature that is sinful) Jesus was concieved of incorruptable seed


I suggest you learn the meaning, according to scripture, of "sinful nature".

Here's a little help. If my memory serves me correctly, the NIV translation was the first to use the phrase "sinful nature". Consider;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
NIV

There is also a footnote at "sinful nature" which states;

Rom 7:5
7:5 a Or the flesh; also in verse 25
NIV

Now let's consider the same passage in the KJV;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
KJV

Our "sinful nature" is simple our flesh and blood body or "outward man", which Jesus also shared in. It doesn't mean he committed sin, but rather took on the form of flesh and blood.

Being "controlled by the sinful nature" is merely choosing to be slave to sin, Rom 6:16.

Jake


but dont you think there is a difference between being concieved by the Holy Spirit and being concieved by a normal fleshly man and woman?

is the "nature" of a man concieved by the Holy Spirit

exactly the same as the "nature" of a man concieved by a normal man?

HUH??? How in the world are you against the scripture that clearly states that Christ was tempted but never sinned? He was sinless.

He was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. His flesh was the only thing that made Him able to be tempted. His divinity spiritually far outweigh his fleshy self. That is how it ought to be for us, to be spiritually strong to resist sin when the flesh desires it.

Hebrews 2
11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12saying,
"I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
13And again,
"I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM "
And again,
"BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that (through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.


He was made man for many reasons, but one of which was so that He could understand our peril in this world to resist temptation.

I'm just not understanding the objection to the verses I shared above. It says what it says.

wesand24
Jan 20th 2009, 04:27 PM
Jesus was not tempted by His sinful nature, He was tempted by Satan, there is nothing wrong with being tempted, even God allowed Himself to be tempted by Satan.

wesand24
Jan 20th 2009, 04:35 PM
Let me just say that I made it sound above like I believed Jesus to have had a sinful nature, but I don't, that is the whole reason He came to the cross, to be the SPOTLESS Lamb. Christ did not have the war against the Spirit and flesh that we do, he had one nature, the nature of God himself, yet standing in the world as a man.

holyrokker
Jan 20th 2009, 04:49 PM
There aren't any verses that say: "Mankind is born with a sinless nature" - but there are also no verses that say; "Mankind is born with a sinful nature."

In fact, the Bible doesn't even use the term "sinful nature". Oh, yes the translators of the NIV chose the term in certain passages when translating the Greek word for "flesh", but there is nothing in the Greek word (sarx) that indicates any such legitimate translation.

Some passages where the word is found include:

Matthew 19:5 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Luke 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

John 6:53-56 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."

In each of these verese, the word translated "flesh" is the same word translated "sinful nature" in the NIV in verses like:

Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

There is no linguistic reason for such a distinction, however.

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 05:04 PM
There aren't any verses that say: "Mankind is born with a sinless nature" - but there are also no verses that say; "Mankind is born with a sinful nature."

In fact, the Bible doesn't even use the term "sinful nature". Oh, yes the translators of the NIV chose the term in certain passages when translating the Greek word for "flesh", but there is nothing in the Greek word (sarx) that indicates any such legitimate translation.

Some passages where the word is found include:

Matthew 19:5 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Luke 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

John 6:53-56 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."

In each of these verese, the word translated "flesh" is the same word translated "sinful nature" in the NIV in verses like:

Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

There is no linguistic reason for such a distinction, however.

however, the Bible does indeed say that we are by nature objects of Gods wrath. If this was only reffering to our flesh and blood, that would mean Gods wrath is on us just for being born a human, which would sound unjust. How can God be incurred with wrath towards us simply because our flesh and blood is fallen? I think by nature objects of Gods wrath indicates something deepr than flesh and blood alone, and does indeed indicate a sinful nature, though the exact term "sinful nature is not used". there need not be an exact term used in order to use it to explain. there is not one time in the Bible where Trinity is used, though we use it frequently. Therefore just because a term is not expressly used doesn not mean that its meaning is not supported by Scripture

holyrokker
Jan 20th 2009, 05:37 PM
however, the Bible does indeed say that we are by nature objects of Gods wrath.

The passage to which you refer is found in Ephesians 2:1-10

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It’s important to see that phrase in its context. I know, I know - always trying to wiggle out of a “sinful nature” proof-text by pointing to “context”. Why can’t I just make a small group of words mean what I want it to mean without getting all technical?

First – Notice that the phrase is just that, grammatically; a phrase. It’s not a complete thought. It’s not a full sentence. It isn’t even a full clause. It’s part of a larger thought.

The thought pattern actually begins in chapter one. How do I know? The paragraph begins with the conjunction “and”. This section is an addition to what Paul was addressing in the previous paragraph.
Ephesians 1:15-16 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your lovetoward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you…

Paul then goes on to talk about what Christ did for us.

Second – Notice the phrase that finishes the sentence: “like the rest of mankind”. Paul is reminding us that we who are Christians weren’t always Christians. We are not a particularly special group of people. There is nothing about us that makes us better than “sinners” – because that’s what we used to be.

This thought is also seen in verse 9 - And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast


Third – The word translated by nature is translated from the Greek word physis; which can also be translated into English as:
· the nature of things, the force, laws, order of nature: as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse;
· a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature


Conclusion – This passage is not a discussion of an inherent sinful nature, rather it is part of a broader discussion about how we are completely dependent upon the mercy of God, because, just like everyone else, we have all sinned and become the natural objects of God’s judgment.

Bex4Jesus
Jan 20th 2009, 05:57 PM
My problem with this is how you worded the questions. I mean, what does "sinless nature" or "sinful nature mean?" To have a sinful nature just means you are not perfect. You sin. Okay, that describes all of us. This is not a news flash at eleven!

But that does not mean we enjoy sinning or sin most of the time or sin in really big ways. It just means we are not perfect. "Sinless" would mean perfect which we obviously aren't.

Love to all,

Bex

holyrokker
Jan 20th 2009, 06:00 PM
My problem with this is how you worded the questions. I mean, what does "sinless nature" or "sinful nature mean?" To have a sinful nature just means you are not perfect. You sin. Okay, that describes all of us. This is not a news flash at eleven!

But that does not mean we enjoy sinning or sin most of the time or sin in really big ways. It just means we are not perfect. "Sinless" would mean perfect which we obviously aren't.

Love to all,

Bex

Bex,
You brought up a very good point here. If it were the nature of man to sin, then it would be unnatual for man to do anything but sin.

Unselfish acts of kindness and mercy, forgiveness, charity, compassion etc. would be impossible for a non-Christian.

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 06:03 PM
My problem with this is how you worded the questions. I mean, what does "sinless nature" or "sinful nature mean?" To have a sinful nature just means you are not perfect. You sin. Okay, that describes all of us. This is not a news flash at eleven!

But that does not mean we enjoy sinning or sin most of the time or sin in really big ways. It just means we are not perfect. "Sinless" would mean perfect which we obviously aren't.

Love to all,

Bex


19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Bex4Jesus
Jan 20th 2009, 06:04 PM
Bex,
You brought up a very good point here. If it were the nature of man to sin, then it would be unnatual for man to do anything but sin.

Unselfish acts of kindness and mercy, forgiveness, charity, compassion etc. would be impossible for a non-Christian.

Thank you for explaining that better than I did! But yes, I was trying to say that people who define our entire nature by describing it as "sinless" or "sinful" are missing the point. ;) And actually if we had all sinful natures, it would be impossible/unnatural for even Christians (let alone non Christians) to do good.

Love to all,

Bex

threebigrocks
Jan 20th 2009, 06:11 PM
Jesus was not tempted by His sinful nature, He was tempted by Satan, there is nothing wrong with being tempted, even God allowed Himself to be tempted by Satan.

His flesh was the object and target of the temptation, no different than us. Spiritually, he was untouchable.

Is that not where we are, as born again believers? Keep the flesh dead and the spirit redeemed though faith?

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 06:12 PM
Bex,
You brought up a very good point here. If it were the nature of man to sin, then it would be unnatual for man to do anything but sin.

Unselfish acts of kindness and mercy, forgiveness, charity, compassion etc. would be impossible for a non-Christian.

you guys are ignoring Scripture. I never said that evil people cant do good things. Im saying that in Gods eyes, whether you do a good or bad thing, if it is apart from faith it is sin

Sinners can feed the poor and cure disease and all that "good" stuff. But at the end of the day, anything apart from faith is sin. The act is good, the intention and integrity of the actor is sinful
its plain and clear i dont know why you all dont humble yourselves and let the Scripture dictate your thoughts instead of filtering the Scripture through your own understanding?

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 06:14 PM
My problem with this is how you worded the questions. I mean, what does "sinless nature" or "sinful nature mean?" To have a sinful nature just means you are not perfect. You sin. Okay, that describes all of us. This is not a news flash at eleven!

But that does not mean we enjoy sinning or sin most of the time or sin in really big ways. It just means we are not perfect. "Sinless" would mean perfect which we obviously aren't.

Love to all,

Bex

we do enjoy sin:


19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

sin is pleasurable. men LOVE darkness. i affirm the Bible

holyrokker
Jan 20th 2009, 06:17 PM
you guys are ignoring Scripture. I never said that evil people cant do good things. Im saying that in Gods eyes, whether you do a good or bad thing, if it is apart from faith it is sin

Sinners can feed the poor and cure disease and all that "good" stuff. But at the end of the day, anything apart from faith is sin. The act is good, the intention and integrity of the actor is sinful
its plain and clear i dont know why you all dont humble yourselves and let the Scripture dictate your thoughts instead of filtering the Scripture through your own understanding?

But you are also saying that the reason we sin is because we are born with that nature.

The Bible doesn't teach us that we are born with a sinful nature. The doctrines of Augustine teach that. You are applying Augustine's doctrine to Scripture, rather than looking at Scripture objectively.

Bex4Jesus
Jan 20th 2009, 06:37 PM
I would add that talking about "sinful nature" is not helpful to anyone. You are just trying to define people by the fact they are not perfect. That does not make sense no matter how you look at it.

Our imperfection is not our defining characteristic, anymore than is our ability to be good, to help others, to use our minds, or anything else. It is just one part of us that makes us who were are.

God made us in God's own image right? At the very least, that means our -main- nature is not bad. I mean, God doesn't make things in God's own image that are mostly bad. We can do bad things but we are not -bad- just because of that. I mean, if I do one good thing am I "good?"

Love to all,

Bex

sheina maidle
Jan 20th 2009, 07:26 PM
Man was created in God's image. However that perfect image was marred when Adam disobeyed God:

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (Genesis 3:6)

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. (Genesis 3:7)

Notice that their eyes were not opened UNTIL Adam ate.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

Everybody is born with a sin nature...Adam's nature after the Fall. Jesus Christ was the only Man born without a sin nature...for He was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psalms 58:3)

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalms 51:5)

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 07:31 PM
I would add that talking about "sinful nature" is not helpful to anyone. You are just trying to define people by the fact they are not perfect. That does not make sense no matter how you look at it.

Our imperfection is not our defining characteristic, anymore than is our ability to be good, to help others, to use our minds, or anything else. It is just one part of us that makes us who were are.

God made us in God's own image right? At the very least, that means our -main- nature is not bad. I mean, God doesn't make things in God's own image that are mostly bad. We can do bad things but we are not -bad- just because of that. I mean, if I do one good thing am I "good?"

Love to all,

Bex

image of God deosnt mean we are good. image of God means we look like Him in one way or another. We have dominon like Him, we have a sense of right and wrong like Him, we have feelings, emotions, and thought like Him. we are fearfully and wonderfully made like Him. At the same time the Bible declares that the hearts of man are FULL OF EVIL and we are BY NATURE OBJECTS OF GODS WRATH.

this is not me this your Bible saying these things. Does full of evil sound like mostly good? i would challenge you to use the BIBLE to support the idea that man is mostly good inside. please do not rely on what you personally believe or what most people say, but actually base your understanding on the Word of God

"My ways are not your ways"

One of the main reasons people dont accept and submit to Christ is because they dont think they are "that bad". If everyone knew just how bad and evil they looked in the sight of God they would run to Christ. It is imperitive and very important that you make others aware of their sinful nature so they will know how bad they need Christ. God is not as concerned about us having "self-esteem or a good "self image" or "feeling good" as much as He is concerned with us knowing the ugly truth. Truth hurts.

Just the fact that we dont even know how bad we are shows how far our minds are from what God has said about us.

No one is righteous, no not one
Together they have all become worhtless
Man is a worm Job 25:6

Thats the whole point of Jesus! we are ALL WICKED. Thats why we need Jesus to cleanse us of all unrighteousness and to be born of the Spirit

Every human being on the face of this Earth is wicked apart from God

self-esteem is a lie. We are supposed to have Christ-esteem

i am a worhtless worm. You are a worthelss worm. But praise be to God for His grace and His Son which gives us new life. Our identity and value is IN CHRIST

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 20th 2009, 07:48 PM
Christ born with a sinful nature? wow...

Jesus was made in the 'likeness of 'sinful' flesh...

notice in the 'likeness'.. not 'as' or 'having'

He didn't have sinful flesh nor did He have a sinful nature...

He was 'pure' and 'knew no sin"

When He was tempted He was 'tempted' by the Devil... but He never did sin...

Jesus at the Last supper told His disciples that the 'prince of this world' cometh.. he is referring to Satan in that verse.... for he has 'nothing' in me... Satan had nothing on Jesus.. nor 'in him'.. which means a sinful nature.. Satan had nothing 'on Jesus' nor 'in Him' and this from an Accusatory role.. that Satan plays before the Throne.. Jesus was 'pure'.. period.. and His time to be offered up as the Perfect Lamb slain before the foudnation of the World was at hand..... He was ready to 'drink of the cup His Father had called Him to do'.........

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.



In Romans Paul talks about the 'law of sin' which abides in a believers flesh...... while the believer Serves God thru Jesus the Christ with his/her mind/soul/spirit...... Christ never had that... He was made in the 'likeness' of sinful flesh.. but had none period.. and not a sinful nature.. even though He was tempted to sin... this coming from the devil..

God 'condemned' sin in the flesh on the Cross.. by nailing His Son to it.. His Son in the 'likeness of sinful flesh'...

now how can someobdoy who is suppose to have a sinful nature be sacraficed in the role of condeming sinful flesh? that doesnt make sense and won't work..

He that was 'pure' and 'knew no sin'.. and had 'no sin'.. and 'no sin nature'.. was Nailed to that tree.. Pure, no sin, no sin nature... 'knew no sin'... and in the likeness of sinful flesh... even though His flesh had no sin nature or law of sin in it...

If Christ had a sin nature... then woulnt that make His blood. Impure and unclean? but after He ascended He as a High Priest.. He offered up His own blood... blood that was 'tainted' or had a sin nature? no I dont think so... it won't work..

Christ was pure.... 100% percent of His human form... God in the flesh was pure... if not then the 'cross is in vain'.. and I know its not..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Christ came from Heaven... concieved by the Holy Ghost.. and not thru the '1st Adam'...

Jesus is the 'new Adam'... which was made a quickening Spirit.. and He was pure and had no sin or sin nature...

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 07:51 PM
Christ born with a sinful nature? wow...

Jesus was made in the 'likeness of 'sinful' flesh...

notice in the 'likeness'.. not 'as' or 'having'

He didn't have sinful flesh nor did He have a sinful nature...

He was 'pure' and 'knew no sin"

When He was tempted He was 'tempted' by the Devil... but He never did sin...

Jesus at the Last supper told His disciples that the 'prince of this world' cometh.. he is referring to Satan in that verse.... for he has 'nothing' in me... Satan had nothing on Jesus.. nor 'in him'.. which means a sinful nature.. Satan had nothing 'on Jesus' nor 'in Him' and this from an Accusatory role.. that Satan plays before the Throne.. Jesus was 'pure'.. period.. and His time to be offered up as the Perfect Lamb slain before the foudnation of the World was at hand..... He was ready to 'drink of the cup His Father had called Him to do'.........

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.



In Romans Paul talks about the 'law of sin' which abides in a believers flesh...... while the believer Serves God thru Jesus the Christ with his/her mind/soul/spirit...... Christ never had that... He was made in the 'likeness' of sinful flesh.. but had none period.. and not a sinful nature.. even though He was tempted to sin... this coming from the devil..

God 'condemned' sin in the flesh on the Cross.. by nailing His Son to it.. His Son in the 'likeness of sinful flesh'...

now how can someobdoy who is suppose to have a sinful nature be sacraficed in the role of condeming sinful flesh? that doesnt make sense and won't work..

He that was 'pure' and 'knew no sin'.. and had 'no sin'.. and 'no sin nature'.. was Nailed to that tree.. Pure, no sin, no sin nature... 'knew no sin'... and in the likeness of sinful flesh... even though His flesh had no sin nature or law of sin in it...

If Christ had a sin nature... then woulnt that make His blood. Impure and unclean? but after He ascended He as a High Priest.. He offered up His own blood... blood that was 'tainted' or had a sin nature? no I dont think so... it won't work..

Christ was pure.... 100% percent of His human form... God in the flesh was pure... if not then the 'cross is in vain'.. and I know its not..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Christ came from Heaven... concieved by the Holy Ghost.. and not thru the '1st Adam'...

Jesus is the 'new Adam'... which was made a quickening Spirit.. and He was pure and had no sin or sin nature...

im not sure if this was in response to something i said but i by no means believe Jesus had a sinful nature and i apologize if i somehow said that. everything i was talking about was in reference to normal men like me not Jesus:cool:

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 20th 2009, 08:32 PM
im not sure if this was in response to something i said but i by no means believe Jesus had a sinful nature and i apologize if i somehow said that. everything i was talking about was in reference to normal men like me not Jesus:cool:

No problem my Friend.. and brother.. I was just making a point that Christ had no 'sin nature'.. I know of some who think He did when He was born.. yet He was God.... keep pressing forward...:hug::hug:

divaD
Jan 20th 2009, 08:42 PM
i am a worhtless worm. You are a worthelss worm.

I wonder why God just didn't create us as worthelss worms to begin with, and just get it over with?
If God really and truly thought this about us, He would never have sent His Son in order to save us. Sinners we are, but worthless we're not, especially worthless worms.

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 10:13 PM
I wonder why God just didn't create us as worthelss worms to begin with, and just get it over with?
If God really and truly thought this about us, He would never have sent His Son in order to save us. Sinners we are, but worthless we're not, especially worthless worms.


thats why its called gracE! lol we dont deserve it!

as far as my comments about being worthless and being worms, im sorry but that is truly what the Bible says, i didnt just make this up lol its funny people dont really realize how small and insignificant we are without God

Worthless:

Romans 3:12 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;

Worm or maggot:

Job 25:6 (English Standard Version)

6 how much less man, who is a maggot,
and



the son of man, who is a worm!"


lol God Himself says it here:


(Isaiah 41:14)



"Fear not, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel! I will help you, says the Lord; your redeemer is the Holy One of Israel." :D


im just agreeing with the Bible instead of my preconcieved notions thats all
part of what makes Jesus so great is how much we did not deserve Him. Now as far as those in Christ, we are loved, we are valued and God cares very much about us. But apart from Christ we are worms lol

just speakin the Bible guys

pc_benz
Jan 20th 2009, 10:25 PM
I wonder why God just didn't create us as worthelss worms to begin with, and just get it over with?
If God really and truly thought this about us, He would never have sent His Son in order to save us. Sinners we are, but worthless we're not, especially worthless worms.

It's not about us. It's about God. All of creation is to glorify Him, even us wicked creatures, so that He might show His grace to whom He pleases.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 10:34 PM
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Ok, so, when Christ came the people loved darkness, that does not say that all people of all time will love darkness.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 10:35 PM
you guys are ignoring Scripture. I never said that evil people cant do good things. Im saying that in Gods eyes, whether you do a good or bad thing, if it is apart from faith it is sin

Sinners can feed the poor and cure disease and all that "good" stuff. But at the end of the day, anything apart from faith is sin. The act is good, the intention and integrity of the actor is sinful
its plain and clear i dont know why you all dont humble yourselves and let the Scripture dictate your thoughts instead of filtering the Scripture through your own understanding?

That phrase is out of context.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 20th 2009, 10:38 PM
Ok, so, when Christ came the people loved darkness, that does not say that all people of all time will love darkness.

Do you think today there are people who 'love darkness' rather than Light? and do you think there are people who 'walk in darkness'.. yet confess and believe they are walking in the Light?

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 10:42 PM
Of course i believe the opposite, but i would like to see Scriptures that are in support of man being born with a sinless nature. Perhaps i will be convinced to change my views

If man was created with a sinful nature, what is that saying about Christ???

Hebrews 2:14-18 ( KJV ) 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Scripture says that "in all things" we was made like man.

divaD
Jan 20th 2009, 10:50 PM
It's not about us. It's about God. All of creation is to glorify Him, even us wicked creatures, so that He might show His grace to whom He pleases.



I'm not putting us above God, but I do have sense to know, that if God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, in order that those who believe on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life, then this means that we're not worthless. We just can't save ourselves. But that doesn't mean we have no value. Most people don't even take into consideration how Christ also suffered beyond belief, in order that we should not perish, but obtain eternal life instead. No one would go thru all of that for people who are completely worthless. It's true, none of us can save ourselves, but that doesn't mean that we are worthless and not worth saving.

divaD
Jan 20th 2009, 10:52 PM
thats why its called gracE! lol we dont deserve it!

as far as my comments about being worthless and being worms, im sorry but that is truly what the Bible says, i didnt just make this up lol its funny people dont really realize how small and insignificant we are without God

Worthless:

Romans 3:12 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;

Worm or maggot:

Job 25:6 (English Standard Version)

6 how much less man, who is a maggot,
and



the son of man, who is a worm!"


lol God Himself says it here:


(Isaiah 41:14)



"Fear not, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel! I will help you, says the Lord; your redeemer is the Holy One of Israel." :D


im just agreeing with the Bible instead of my preconcieved notions thats all
part of what makes Jesus so great is how much we did not deserve Him. Now as far as those in Christ, we are loved, we are valued and God cares very much about us. But apart from Christ we are worms lol

just speakin the Bible guys



I'm going to have to be honest. If we are to read one passage here, then read another passage there, that are undeniably unrelated, then conclude from the 2 passages this is what it means, then I may as well quit reading the Bible all together. Obviously I'm wasting my time and interpreting it all wrong.

And as far as that passage in Romans 3 you're referring to, one needs to interpret that from the contexts of Psalms 14, Psalms 53, Psalms 5, Psalms 140, Psalms 10, and Psalms 36, and from the perspective of Isaiah 59, just to name a few.
Yes it's a lot to do, but it's all about finding truth and coming to the correct conclusions.

pc_benz
Jan 20th 2009, 10:56 PM
Genesis 6:5

5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 8:21

21The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Show us in scripture where man gets better, or should I say where mans heart gets better.

Isaiah 64:6

6For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;

Christ had the sinful nature of humans, but was holy and divine from the Holy Spirit. Christ was a real man with real desires, but He never subcame to those desires and sinned. He was perfect and had no sin.

Man is born guilty. Christ was sinless. Scripture does not lie.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 11:08 PM
Do you think today there are people who 'love darkness' rather than Light? and do you think there are people who 'walk in darkness'.. yet confess and believe they are walking in the Light?

I'm sure there are.

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 11:13 PM
Genesis 6:5

5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 8:21

21The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Show us in scripture where man gets better, or should I say where mans heart gets better.

Isaiah 64:6

6For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;

Christ had the sinful nature of humans, but was holy and divine from the Holy Spirit. Christ was a real man with real desires, but He never subcame to those desires and sinned. He was perfect and had no sin.

Man is born guilty. Christ was sinless. Scripture does not lie.

Were'nt all of those in Gen. 6:5 destroyed?

The quote from Isaiah 64, is Isaiah speaking on behalf of Israel, He is saying that all of Israel's righteousness's are as filthy rags, he is not saying this of every human being.

divaD
Jan 20th 2009, 11:32 PM
The quote from Isaiah 64, is Isaiah speaking on behalf of Israel, He is saying that all of Israel's righteousness's are as filthy rags, he is not saying this of every human being.



Exactly! And this is one of my major points that I try to stress. We have to interpret Scriptures according to the context, otherwise we come to wrong conclusions, which does nothing but confuse people.

mikebr
Jan 20th 2009, 11:35 PM
What about John the Baptist? Wasn't he born full of the Holy Spirit? Was he special; one of a kind?

Butch5
Jan 20th 2009, 11:38 PM
Exactly! And this is one of my major points that I try to stress. We have to interpret Scriptures according to the context, otherwise we come to wrong conclusions, which does nothing but confuse people.

You are exactly right and I agreed with you in the thread on context. Context is of the utmost importance.

reformedct
Jan 21st 2009, 12:28 AM
Were'nt all of those in Gen. 6:5 destroyed?

The quote from Isaiah 64, is Isaiah speaking on behalf of Israel, He is saying that all of Israel's righteousness's are as filthy rags, he is not saying this of every human being.

hello butch5

you are correct about genesis 6. it was before the flood. im not sure about isaiah 64, so i will not comment on it.

however, lets look here at genesis 8:21, which was spoken after the flood:

21 And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth (a word study on the original word for "youth" includes infancy)


also we have ecclesiastes 9:3 far after the flood:

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead

also, if Israel, the people of God, had the righteousness of filthy rags, how does the righteousness of Gentiles look? Just because something is said to one particular person does not mean it doesnt apply to everyone. For example, Jesus said many things to His disciples who were Jews in Israel. Yet we know that much of what He say applies to us as well. Also, we as christians are Israel. we have been grafted in. The children of Israel are the children of Abraham who have faith

also, in romans it also declares

no one is righteous, no not one
all have sinned

here are a few more:



Micah 7:2-4 - The godly person has perished from the land, and there is no upright person among men. All of them lie in wait for bloodshed; each of them hunts the other with a net. Concerning evil, and a great man speaks the desire of his soul; so they weave it together. The best of them is like a briar, the most upright like a thorn hedge.

even jesus:

Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."

Psalm 143:2 - And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, for in Your sight no man living is righteous.

Galatians 3:22 - the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin

Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one. (c.f. Psalm 14:1-3, 53:1-3)

as you have seen a number of these are NT Scriptures to the church in Christ

just because something is said of Israel does not mean it doesnt apply to all. That would be like me saying the ten commandments were given to Israel at that time, so it doesnt apply to everyone. if you could convince me that that verse in Isaiah doesnt apply to all then maybe i can consider.

So lets think for a second....if the people of God's righteousness at that time was as filthy rags, what about the righteousness of those who didnt even serve that God? what about Gentiles?

whether isaiah is reffering only to israel or not, the fact remains: "whatever is apart from faith is sin"

therefore, according to Scripture(not just my opinion) every righteous act done by anyone, anywhere, is sin if it is not from faith. now can we ask...can sin be righteous?

reformedct
Jan 21st 2009, 12:36 AM
What about John the Baptist? Wasn't he born full of the Holy Spirit? Was he special; one of a kind?

John did have a special birth. However it is my view that being born of man he was still born fallen. When it says full of the Spirit, it is my view is simply that God called Him and filled him with the Spirit from the womb. However, Johns filling of the Spirit was unique and different than how the Spirit fills us. (once again not saying i am 100% right just gving my opinion from reading Scripture)

the Spirit had not come on anyone the same way it does today until after Jesus was glorified, on the day of Pentecost. Now prior to Jesus ressurection, the Spirit was often upon kings to help them do the will of God, and the prophets. God often called prophets at a very young age, such as jeremiah. John the Baptist was a prophet. As Jesus said, there was not a greater prophet than John the Baptist. Because of the uniqueness of his calling, (the prophet that would see and declare the Messiah) God chose to call him and fill him from the womb. However i also dont take that to mean that JOhn was born sinless, but that is just my view, based on my understanding of Scripture. Being filled with the Spirit does not make a person perfect, it empowers them to do the will of God(imo). For example, though he was filled at birth, when he was in jail, he was doubting whether or not Jesus was even the chosen one. He sent out messangers to ask Jesus if He was even the one, or if he should wait for someone else to save Israel. Being filled of the Spirit doesnt mean you are sinless or perfect it seems. For example, christians are filled with the pirit, but they are not sinless

just my 2 cents:hmm:

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 12:57 AM
hello butch5

you are correct about genesis 6. it was before the flood. im not sure about isaiah 64, so i will not comment on it.

however, lets here at genesis 8:21, which was spoken after the flood:

21 And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth (a word study on the original word for "youth" includes infancy)


also we have ecclesiastes 9:3 far after the flood:

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead

Have you heard of Hyperbole? It is when language is exaggerated to make a point. Consider this,

John 12:18-19 ( KJV ) 18For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle. 19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Did the earth start following Jesus around? No. Did everyone on earth start following Jesus? No. It is hyperbole, it is an exaggerated statement to make a point, the point being that a lot of people were following Jesus. We do the same thing, for instance when we see someone who is very tall we might say, wow, he's gotta be 10 feet tall. Obviously we don't literally mean that he is 10 feet tall, only that he is very tall. How do we know the statement in John is hyperbole? Simple, we know that not every person on earth followed Jesus. How do we know that the verses you quoted are hyperbole? Simple Not every person's heart is full of evil. Jesus was a man and His heart was not full of evil. David was man and his heart was not full of evil, and Abraham, and Jacob, etc.

If you look at those verses in context you will see that not every single person is evil.

reformedct
Jan 21st 2009, 01:03 AM
Have you heard of Hyperbole? It is when language is exaggerated to make a point. Consider this,

John 12:18-19 ( KJV ) 18For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle. 19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Did the earth start following Jesus around? No. Did everyone on earth start following Jesus? No. It is hyperbole, it is an exaggerated statement to make a point, the point being that a lot of people were following Jesus. We do the same thing, for instance when we see someone who is very tall we might say, wow, he's gotta be 10 feet tall. Obviously we don't literally mean that he is 10 feet tall, only that he is very tall. How do we know the statement in John is hyperbole? Simple, we know that not every person on earth followed Jesus. How do we know that the verses you quoted are hyperbole? Simple Not every person's heart is full of evil. Jesus was a man and His heart was not full of evil. David was man and his heart was not full of evil, and Abraham, and Jacob, etc.

If you look at those verses in context you will see that not every single person is evil.


yes i know about hyperbole. i also know that there are only two interpretations of the Bible: literal and literal-figurative

what this means is that even though the Bible may make communicate figuratively, it is making a literal point. For example, in Revelations, the beast with seven horns or whatever. Im sure there wont literally be a monstrous being walking around, but there will literally be something or somethings that will compose the beast. that is literal figurative

Now, that being said, statements like: no one is righteouss, i dont even consider to be literal-figurative. it just seems literal to me


i see verse after verse saying all have sinned, all are condemned, all hearts are evil

now if you, personally, would like to take those verses to mean something else, you are free to do that

but i personally think it is more humble and respectful to the word of God to read literally. when the Bible says no one is righteouss then i just read it and accept it as it is. i dont see any reason to claim it is "hyperbole" or this or that

however if that is what you would like to do then i cannot make you change your mind:cool:

of course Jesus was not evil, because He was the last Adam, and the Bible is clear that He did not sin. As Jesus said: No one is good, except God. Jesus is God.

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 01:07 AM
just because something is said of Israel does not mean it doesnt apply to all. That would be like me saying the ten commandments were given to Israel at that time, so it doesnt apply to everyone. if you could convince me that that verse in Isaiah doesnt apply to all then maybe i can consider.

So lets think for a second....if the people of God's righteousness at that time was as filthy rags, what about the righteousness of those who didnt even serve that God? what about Gentiles?


Again, consider the context. Why was Isaiah making this plea? because of the sins Israel committed.


Reformed---whether isaiah is reffering only to israel or not, the fact remains: "whatever is apart from faith is sin"

therefore, according to Scripture(not just my opinion) every righteous act done by anyone, anywhere, is sin if it is not from faith. now can we ask...can sin be righteous?

Again, context. The statement "what is not of faith is sin" was made in context to the rest of Paul's statement, what was Paul speaking of here?

reformedct
Jan 21st 2009, 01:31 AM
Again, consider the context. Why was Isaiah making this plea? because of the sins Israel committed.



Again, context. The statement "what is not of faith is sin" was made in context to the rest of Paul's statement, what was Paul speaking of here?

in context he was talking about things such as eating and drinking and such. However, he did not say: "these things, apart from faith are sin"

he said whatever is apart from faith. if you would like to limit the word "whatever" to only mean what he was previously talking about, that is fine. I, will interpret it literally as whatever.

Now, as i said about israel, that is fine, though i disagree with you. There is many NT epistles which claim no one is righteous, no, not one, and that mankind is dead in tresspasses and sins.

Now if you would like to take words such as "the rest of mankind" and "all" to mean "not everyone" that is your choice, though i would discourage you from doing that

also, as i noticed your statements about Jesus was righteous so therefore no one is righteous is false.

let me just say, i believe ALL scripture. therefore, when it says no one is righteouss, i interpret it that way, unless the Bible clealy shows an exception. The Bible clearly shows that Jesus is an exception. also, Jacob and Abraham and all the good guys, apart from God, do have evil and wicked hearts. God changed their hearts and declared them righteouss.
this does not mean that they did not have evil in their hearts. why? because Jesus said. Jesus said out of the heart comes evil. So, David, who committed adultery, did so because of something in his heart. Thats why he continually prayed for God to change his heart. he knew the condition of his heart apart from Gods grace.

so, in conclusion, in the specific reference to israel, the fact remains that there are many NT epistles which also declare the sinfulness of mankind. If you would like to call it "exaggeration or hyperbole", as i said, it is your mind, not mine. However, i hope you will understand that i am taking heed to the literal words. i think that is why our interpretations are different. I hold to a literal/literal-figurative view only. it is either literal, or making a literal point figuratively. Always literal. but a i said that is just how i do it, because i feel it is more respectful and honest interpretation of Gods Holy Word

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 01:31 AM
yes i know about hyperbole. i also know that there are only two interpretations of the Bible: literal and literal-figurative

what this means is that even though the Bible may make communicate figuratively, it is making a literal point. For example, in Revelations, the beast with seven horns or whatever. Im sure there wont literally be a monstrous being walking around, but there will literally be something or somethings that will compose the beast. that is literal figurative

Now, that being said, statements like: no one is righteouss, i dont even consider to be literal-figurative. it just seems literal to me


i see verse after verse saying all have sinned, all are condemned, all hearts are evil

now if you, personally, would like to take those verses to mean something else, you are free to do that

but i personally think it is more humble and respectful to the word of God to read literally. when the Bible says no one is righteouss then i just read it and accept it as it is. i dont see any reason to claim it is "hyperbole" or this or that

however if that is what you would like to do then i cannot make you change your mind:cool:

of course Jesus was not evil, because He was the last Adam, and the Bible is clear that He did not sin. As Jesus said: No one is good, except God. Jesus is God.

Hyperbole is not figurative language, it is exaggerated language to make a point. Regarding the taking of Scripture literally, I do, however there are times when taking the Scripture literally creates a contradiction, as the verse I posted. If we understand that verse literally, then everyone in the world followed Jesus, is that what Scripture teaches? We have Scripture that says everyone followed Jesus and Scripture that says not everyone followed Jesus. Do you see the problem that you will run into here? Now regarding there being none righteous, you say there is not single righteous person correct?

Genesis 7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Exodus 23:7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.

Exodus 23:8 And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous.

Deut. 16:19 You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.

Deut. 25:1 If there is a dispute between men, and they come to court, that the judges may judge them, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked,

2 Samuel 4:11 How much more, when wicked men have killed a righteous person in his own house on his bed? Therefore, shall I not now require his blood at your hand and remove you from the earth?”

1 Kings 8:32 Then hear in heaven, and act, and judge Your servants, condemning the wicked, bringing his way on his head, and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness.
Matthew 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Matthew 25:37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.

1 Timothy 1:9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

1 Peter 4:18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

Notice in the very first verse it is God calling Noah righteous. Now, here is the problem, if there is not a single righteous person in the world, what are these Scriptures saying? I could post a whole lot more, probably well over a hundred. OK, this is not hyperbole because it speaks of individuals as being righteous, whereas the other verses, the ones you posted say all people are unrighteous, this has to be hyperbole because we see here that there is Scripture that speaks of some who are righteous.

reformedct
Jan 21st 2009, 01:39 AM
Hyperbole is not figurative language, it is exaggerated language to make a point. Regarding the taking of Scripture literally, I do, however there are times when taking the Scripture literally creates a contradiction, as the verse I posted. If we understand that verse literally, then everyone in the world followed Jesus, is that what Scripture teaches? We have Scripture that says everyone followed Jesus and Scripture that says not everyone followed Jesus. Do you see the problem that you will run into here? Now regarding there being none righteous, you say there is not single righteous person correct?

Genesis 7:1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Exodus 23:7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.

Exodus 23:8 And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous.

Deut. 16:19 You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.

Deut. 25:1 If there is a dispute between men, and they come to court, that the judges may judge them, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked,

2 Samuel 4:11 How much more, when wicked men have killed a righteous person in his own house on his bed? Therefore, shall I not now require his blood at your hand and remove you from the earth?”

1 Kings 8:32 Then hear in heaven, and act, and judge Your servants, condemning the wicked, bringing his way on his head, and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness.
Matthew 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Matthew 25:37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.

1 Timothy 1:9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

1 Peter 4:18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

Notice in the very first verse it is God calling Noah righteous. Now, here is the problem, if there is not a single righteous person in the world, what are these Scriptures saying? I could post a whole lot more, probably well over a hundred. OK, this is not hyperbole because it speaks of individuals as being righteous, whereas the other verses, the ones you posted say all people are unrighteous, this has to be hyperbole because we see here that there is Scripture that speaks of some who are righteous.

it is not a contradiction.

no one is righteous, but the Bible has shown over and over that we can become righteous by faith
its not a contradiction, you simply must be able to rightly divide.

no one is righteous, but, by faith you can be declared righteous. its not a contradiction, it is simply a matter of rightly dividing. And as i said earlier, just because something sounds exaggerrated does not mean that it is not making a literal point. I think the difference between you and me is that when you see an exaggeration, you dont take it to be making a literal point, because at the time it seems like a contradiction. The Bible is full of what seems to be contradictory, for example: the Lord is one. then: Let Us make man in Our image

no contradiction, its just that there is a missing piece of understanding that can be found throughout the rest of Scripture

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 01:49 AM
in context he was talking about things such as eating and drinking and such. However, he did not say: "these things, apart from faith are sin"

he said whatever is apart from faith. if you would like to limit the word "whatever" to only mean what he was previously talking about, that is fine. I, will interpret it literally as whatever.

Now, as i said about israel, that is fine, though i disagree with you. There is many NT epistles which claim no one is righteous, no, not one, and that mankind is dead in tresspasses and sins.

Now if you would like to take words such as "the rest of mankind" and "all" to mean "not everyone" that is your choice, though i would discourage you from doing that

also, as i noticed your statements about Jesus was righteous so therefore no one is righteous is false.

let me just say, i believe ALL scripture. therefore, when it says no one is righteouss, i interpret it that way, unless the Bible clealy shows an exception. The Bible clearly shows that Jesus is an exception. also, Jacob and Abraham and all the good guys, apart from God, do have evil and wicked hearts. God changed their hearts and declared them righteouss.
this does not mean that they did not have evil in their hearts. why? because Jesus said. Jesus said out of the heart comes evil. So, David, who committed adultery, did so because of something in his heart. Thats why he continually prayed for God to change his heart. he knew the condition of his heart apart from Gods grace.

so, in conclusion, in the specific reference to israel, the fact remains that there are many NT epistles which also declare the sinfulness of mankind. If you would like to call it "exaggeration or hyperbole", as i said, it is your mind, not mine. However, i hope you will understand that i am taking heed to the literal words. i think that is why our interpretations are different. I hold to a literal/literal-figurative view only. it is either literal, or making a literal point figuratively. Always literal. but a i said that is just how i do it, because i feel it is more respectful and honest interpretation of Gods Holy Word

Paul was speaking of causing a brother to stumble, He said if eating meat causes your brother to stumble then don't eat meat. To do so is not of faith it is sin. Now regarding the context, if you came to me and said you were going to build me either and dresser, a cabinet, or a Jewelry box and asked me which I preferred, and I replied "whatever", should I expect the possibility that you will build me a boat? No, "whatever" doesn't mean that you build whatever you want to, it has to be kept in the context of the statement, which gave the options of a dresser, or a cabinet, or a jewelry box. So the "whatever" means which ever of those options you would like to build. It is the same with Paul's statement "whatever is not of faith is sin".

I believe all Scripture also, and you have Scripture that states none are righteous and you have Scripture that states some are righteous, can both be taken literally?

Clydson
Jan 21st 2009, 02:25 AM
but dont you think there is a difference between being concieved by the Holy Spirit and being concieved by a normal fleshly man and woman?

is the "nature" of a man concieved by the Holy Spirit

exactly the same as the "nature" of a man concieved by a normal man?
Greetings.

If flesh and blood, "nature of man", cannot be conceived by the Holy Spirit, then there would have been much difficulty with God's production of Adam and Eve. I have no problem believing God made Adam in His own image, and that He provided the necessary elements for his appearance in flesh and blood.

Jesus also appeared in the flesh, born of a woman. Exactly what trait of Jesus' flesh and blood was not identical to Adam, who was not born of a woman? You see, the man Adam and the man Jesus both had the exact same Father... and we today are from the exact same seed, 1 Cor 15:38ff.

Jake

Sirus
Jan 21st 2009, 02:46 AM
I suggest you learn the meaning, according to scripture, of "sinful nature".

Here's a little help. If my memory serves me correctly, the NIV translation was the first to use the phrase "sinful nature". Consider;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
NIV

There is also a footnote at "sinful nature" which states;

Rom 7:5
7:5 a Or the flesh; also in verse 25
NIV

Now let's consider the same passage in the KJV;

Rom 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
KJV

Our "sinful nature" is simple our flesh and blood body or "outward man", which Jesus also shared in. It doesn't mean he committed sin, but rather took on the form of flesh and blood.

Being "controlled by the sinful nature" is merely choosing to be slave to sin, Rom 6:16.

JakeI suggest you go look at the Greek and see if sinful nature even appears once!
It doesn't.

Sirus
Jan 21st 2009, 02:50 AM
You are applying Augustine's doctrine to Scripture, rather than looking at Scripture objectively.True, but the Gnostics taught it first, hence people saying we have two natures at once, which is a freak and a direct contradiction to the word nature, which means essence.

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 03:33 AM
True, but the Gnostics taught it first, hence people saying we have two natures at once, which is a freak and a direct contradiction to the word nature, which means essence.

Agreed, the Gnostics did teach it first, which is where Augustine came from. He was of the Manichean school of thought.

Sirus
Jan 21st 2009, 03:55 AM
absolutely.... correct

Clydson
Jan 21st 2009, 04:44 AM
I suggest you go look at the Greek and see if sinful nature even appears once!
It doesn't.
That's one of my points... thanks...

The NIV is a "thought for thought" translation which necessarily modifies the Greek sentence structure from time to time. This results in a strange and confusing rendering when some passages are laid side by side in comparison with literal translations. "Sinful nature" is the product of one of these "thought for thought" efforts in communications. It doesn't always work in the effort to produce clearness and retain established doctrine.

"Sinful nature", especially as used by a lot of religious folk, was not borne by Greek or Hebrew manuscripts.

Jake

Sirus
Jan 21st 2009, 04:47 AM
I was under the impression you were in favor of a sinful nature. I apologize.

Clydson
Jan 21st 2009, 04:49 AM
I was under the impression you were in favor of a sinful nature. I apologize.
No need. I appreciate the opportunity to clarify.

Jake

Bex4Jesus
Jan 21st 2009, 04:40 PM
I am still trying to figure out what "sinful nature" means. Does it mean just that you sin? (that's all of us) Or does it mean you sin a lot? Or does it mean you enjoy sinning? Or does it mean you are incapable of doing good because that would be against your nature?

Like if I say someone has a "playful nature" (like me!), that doesn't mean she can't be serious sometimes. See what I mean?

Sure there are wicked people who love the 'darkness' but it would be wrong to view most, or even many, people like that. That is a tiny little minority.

Confused,

Bex

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 21st 2009, 05:27 PM
[And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 John 5: 19

What does John reveal to us under the Inspiritation of the Holy Ghost?

Would one consider one to be in 'spiritual darkness' if they are wicked? According to John the 'whole' world lieth in wickedness...
Can one appear outwardly 'righteous' yet be walking in darkness? oh most certainly..

Your either Born Again from Above or your not.. if Your born again from above.. then you 'know' you are of God.. and of the Truth..

black and white.

but you see there is one who sows confusion and distortion to the scriptures.. he is at work 24 hours/day.. he is a liar and the father of it.. he never abode in the Truth ..

he will get people to really believe that they are in 'light' when they are in darkness.. .look at Jesus's rebuttal to those elite of His day.. they thought they were the 'chosen' of God.. sons of Abraham.. but they were not.. outwardly they appeared that way.. but God looks on the heart.. and He will judge men by the secrets of men's hearts according to the Gospel that was taught me.. and others..

Satan has taken and twisted the Scriptures thru this mesmorizing theology that there are many ways to be 'born again'... and that born again wil take on many different conotations.. all leading to Heaven.. If your Truly Born Again.. its something God has done.. and initiated.. not man.. not mens works.. but God Himself has initiated in Heaven and will finish His Work of Faith in that Individual... and a person does not come to God on their own will or on their own power..

Spiritual darkness comes masquerading as 'light'.. and will lead many to believe they walk in the light.. but are walking in darkness... When you look at Revelation.. darkness has gotten so bad.. that it takes an 'invasion' from Heaven by Jesus Christ Himself to save those on this planet and the planet as whole.. from mans own destructive wickedness and the Wrath of God that has been poured out on a rebellious planet.. Jesus went to the Cross for the 'sin's of His people.. and not only that but the 'sins ' of this world........and the mess it has gotten itself into..

Yes if you are Born Again from above you will 'know' it.. and you will realize that the whole world around you lieth in wickedness.. with the exception of a few good 'seed's (light).. the wheat that Jesus Himself has transplanted... amongst the darkness and tares(weeds).

Walstib
Jan 21st 2009, 05:33 PM
I am still trying to figure out what "sinful nature" means. Does it mean just that you sin? (that's all of us) Or does it mean you sin a lot? Or does it mean you enjoy sinning? Or does it mean you are incapable of doing good because that would be against your nature?

Hi Bex,
I believe in it's simplest form it is that we fall short of the glory of God from conception and with our free choice do not perfectly choose God every moment with no selfishness. In our essence we are not perfect enough to stand before God and it can be called sinful to not be worthy.

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.(Rom 3:20-26 NKJV)

Imagine standing before our heavenly Father in His absolute perfect glory. No one, even a baby is pure enough to be worthy of this. Too imperfect without the imputed perfection of Jesus, the washing in the blood of the lamb.

John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.(Rev 1:4-7 NKJV)

They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev 15:2-4 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe

Clydson
Jan 21st 2009, 06:14 PM
I am still trying to figure out what "sinful nature" means. Does it mean just that you sin? (that's all of us) Or does it mean you sin a lot? Or does it mean you enjoy sinning? Or does it mean you are incapable of doing good because that would be against your nature?

Like if I say someone has a "playful nature" (like me!), that doesn't mean she can't be serious sometimes. See what I mean?

Sure there are wicked people who love the 'darkness' but it would be wrong to view most, or even many, people like that. That is a tiny little minority.

Confused,

Bex
Greetings Bex.

Here's the problem; first, scripture does not define "sinful nature", simply because the phrase is not found in any of the Greek manuscripts. Thus, whatever definition to be found for it is from human thinking.

Webster defines sinful as "tainted with, marked by, or full of sin". Webster defines nature as "the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing". Most of Christendom uses the phrase "sinful nature" as an inherent trait that renders a newborn eternally condemned to hell by God.

Peter, in Luke 5:8, calls himself a "sinful man". He used the Greek word "hamartolos", which simply means "sinner". Peter said he was a man who sins. Peter did not say he had an inherent nature that was sinful, but rather that he actually sinned.

Jake

Walstib
Jan 21st 2009, 06:28 PM
Most of Christendom uses the phrase "sinful nature" as an inherent trait that renders a newborn eternally condemned to hell by God.

Babies don't even have to be born yet but that is beside my point. Eternally condemned to hell is a bit strong no, even for "most of Christendom". I don't think I know many people that figure all babies are going to hell.

I think even those who believe in pre-determination like to think all babies are elected. ;)

Peace,
Joe

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:42 AM
Babies don't even have to be born yet but that is beside my point. Eternally condemned to hell is a bit strong no, even for "most of Christendom". I don't think I know many people that figure all babies are going to hell.

I think even those who believe in pre-determination like to think all babies are elected. ;)

Peace,
Joe

yes, this is one of the benefits of unconditional election. God can use His grace to save the unborn, the deaf or blind, etc.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:48 AM
Greetings Bex.

Here's the problem; first, scripture does not define "sinful nature", simply because the phrase is not found in any of the Greek manuscripts. Thus, whatever definition to be found for it is from human thinking.

Webster defines sinful as "tainted with, marked by, or full of sin". Webster defines nature as "the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing". Most of Christendom uses the phrase "sinful nature" as an inherent trait that renders a newborn eternally condemned to hell by God.

Peter, in Luke 5:8, calls himself a "sinful man". He used the Greek word "hamartolos", which simply means "sinner". Peter said he was a man who sins. Peter did not say he had an inherent nature that was sinful, but rather that he actually sinned.

Jake

how would you explain the nature mentioned in ephesians 2? you were by nature objects of Gods wrath? also, why did Jesus say that all wickidness flows from the heart? also why does the Bible call it "sinful flesh"? do these things all simply mean we make bad choices? imo it seems to indicate that it is indeed deeper than just choice. As Jesus said, a bad tree CANNOT produce good fruit. If we are simply sinners because we choose sin, why would the Bible speak so much of sinful actions proceeding from our hearts? is it accurate to say our hearts are just fine? is the heart not the core of a human beings will, thoughts, and actions?

i feel the Bible STRONGLY opposes the idea that we are simply sinners because we choose sin. As Paul says, i know that no good thing dwells in me

the Bible says the carnal mind is HOSTILE to the things of God. that does not sound like a neutral inner state that merely chooses to sin

Jesus also called some Jews sons of their father Satan. The Bible also says the prince of the air(Satan) is now at work IN the sons of disobedience

does this all sound like simply choosing wrong things?

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:43 AM
Greetings Bex.

Here's the problem; first, scripture does not define "sinful nature", simply because the phrase is not found in any of the Greek manuscripts. Thus, whatever definition to be found for it is from human thinking.

Webster defines sinful as "tainted with, marked by, or full of sin". Webster defines nature as "the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing". Most of Christendom uses the phrase "sinful nature" as an inherent trait that renders a newborn eternally condemned to hell by God.

Peter, in Luke 5:8, calls himself a "sinful man". He used the Greek word "hamartolos", which simply means "sinner". Peter said he was a man who sins. Peter did not say he had an inherent nature that was sinful, but rather that he actually sinned.

Jake

So, you are saying that we have no sin nature? That we are not born into a state that requires reconciliation to God?

sheina maidle
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:37 AM
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:16-24)

How are the "works of the flesh" made manifest if there is no sin nature? And why, after salvation, do we still still have spiritual battles (since the Spirit and the flesh are contrary to each other) if there is no sin nature?

Sirus
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:45 AM
So, you are saying that we have no sin nature? That we are not born into a state that requires reconciliation to God?How can it be our natural that needs reconciliation when we are fearfully and wonderfully made in his image knowing right very well as was Adam? Reconciliation has to do with relationship not a nature created and given by God.

Sirus
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:48 AM
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:16-24)

How are the "works of the flesh" made manifest if there is no sin nature? And why, after salvation, do we still still have spiritual battles (since the Spirit and the flesh are contrary to each other) if there is no sin nature?How did Adam sin? Did he have a sin nature?

We do not war after the flesh. Do you have spiritual battles with your natural flesh? Seriously? Having begun in the Spirit are you then made perfected in the flesh?

sheina maidle
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:23 AM
How did Adam sin? Did he have a sin nature?

We do not war after the flesh. Do you have spiritual battles with your natural flesh? Seriously? Having begun in the Spirit are you then made perfected in the flesh?
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

Adam was created with a free will....he was created in the image of God...that image was marred when he chose to disobey God and eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By that one act of disobedience, sin entered the world. We are all descended from Adam and have inherited that marred image (sin nature). Jesus Christ was the only sinless Man, being conceived of the Holy Spirit, He did not inherit the sin nature of Adam.

The life of the believer is not perfected in the flesh. Our battles during this lifetime are not carnal:

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; ) (2 Corinthians 10:4)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6:12)

Was Paul's struggle in Romans 7 a spiritual one or a carnal one? Was he trying to be made perfect in the flesh?

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Romans 7:14)

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Romans 7:17)

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:24)

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)

Paul was not warring after the flesh...his battle was and our battles are SPIRITUAL, NOT CARNAL.

Sirus
Jan 22nd 2009, 06:29 AM
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

Adam was created with a free will....he was created in the image of God...that image was marred when he chose to disobey God and eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By that one act of disobedience, sin entered the world. We are all descended from Adam and have inherited that marred image (sin nature). Jesus Christ was the only sinless Man, being conceived of the Holy Spirit, He did not inherit the sin nature of Adam.Made is designated/ordained not made in the English sense of the word. I posted how the word is used in the Greek earlier. Did you read them. The nature on those made was not affected as a result of being made. Plain and simple.

There is not one verse that supports the image of God being corrupted and marred by man and then that permanent new changed image passed down genetically. Not one.

If Christ was the only sinless non-sin nature man then Adam was sinful? There's no scripture for this either. Not one.



Was Paul's struggle in Romans 7 a spiritual one or a carnal one? Was he trying to be made perfect in the flesh?

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Romans 7:14)

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Romans 7:17)

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:24)

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)

Paul was not warring after the flesh...his battle was and our battles are SPIRITUAL, NOT CARNAL.
'I am carnal'
Is that what believers are to be? Isn't that what the Corinthians were chewed out for? Is Paul now claiming to be what he accused them of? Hardly! I am Paul the apostle and I can't do anything but sin! Are you serious?

'in my flesh'
Is that where Christians are? "you are not in the flesh if so be the Spirit dwell in you" ....not according to scripture!

I notice you didn't emphasize and underline Paul's deliverance ...."I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"
Why is that? You have completely missed the point here in Romans 7. You have pulled it out and separated it from Romans 6 and 8. Unfortunately most do.

The law is spiritual, yes, but it failed to accomplish righteousness because of the flesh. Jesus crucified our flesh that we could be married to him who condemned sin in the flesh through crucifixion.

So while I agree the battle for the Israeli under the law was spiritual because the law was spiritual, because the flesh lived the law was not effectual. The cross is. That is Paul's point. That is why though we live in the flesh we do not live after (follow) the flesh, but after (follow) the Spirit.....which says we were buried with him in baptism, crucified, buried, dead, raised to new life in a new man and old things pass away and all is new.

So again I ask.....Do you have spiritual battles with your natural flesh? Seriously? Having begun in the Spirit are you then made perfected in the flesh?

sheina maidle
Jan 22nd 2009, 08:17 AM
Made is designated/ordained not made in the English sense of the word. I posted how the word is used in the Greek earlier. Did you read them. The nature on those made was not affected as a result of being made. Plain and simple.

There is not one verse that supports the image of God being corrupted and marred by man and then that permanent new changed image passed down genetically. Not one.

If Christ was the only sinless non-sin nature man then Adam was sinful? There's no scripture for this either. Not one.


'I am carnal'
Is that what believers are to be? Isn't that what the Corinthians were chewed out for? Is Paul now claiming to be what he accused them of? Hardly! I am Paul the apostle and I can't do anything but sin! Are you serious?

'in my flesh'
Is that where Christians are? "you are not in the flesh if so be the Spirit dwell in you" ....not according to scripture!

I notice you didn't emphasize and underline Paul's deliverance ...."I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"
Why is that? You have completely missed the point here in Romans 7. You have pulled it out and separated it from Romans 6 and 8. Unfortunately most do.

The law is spiritual, yes, but it failed to accomplish righteousness because of the flesh. Jesus crucified our flesh that we could be married to him who condemned sin in the flesh through crucifixion.

So while I agree the battle for the Israeli under the law was spiritual because the law was spiritual, because the flesh lived the law was not effectual. The cross is. That is Paul's point. That is why though we live in the flesh we do not live after (follow) the flesh, but after (follow) the Spirit.....which says we were buried with him in baptism, crucified, buried, dead, raised to new life in a new man and old things pass away and all is new.

So again I ask.....Do you have spiritual battles with your natural flesh? Seriously? Having begun in the Spirit are you then made perfected in the flesh?
In other words, you are saying that we are sinless...right? Do we attain sinless perfection in this life? If so, why do people still die?

Walstib
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:27 PM
So again I ask.....Do you have spiritual battles with your natural flesh?

Just wondering if you are saying that you think the battles against the lusts and desires of the flesh are done and gone when regenerated?

Peace,
Joe

holyrokker
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:38 PM
In other words, you are saying that we are sinless...right? Do we attain sinless perfection in this life? If so, why do people still die?
Here's a very brief overview of what I see the Bible saying about human nature, sin and death.

1) Adam was created in God's image. Part of that means that he had the capacity to choose right and wrong.
1a) God is Spirit, so man is also spirit. But God also created man with a physical body from the dust of the earth.
1b) The physical body is subject to physical death.
1c) The spirit is subject to spiritual death

2) Adam sinned and died spiritually.
2a) He was then driven from the Garden, and not allowed to eat from the Tree of Life, resulting in eventual physical death.
2b) Adam was now separated from God, which is spiritual death.
2c) Nothing changed in Adam's "nature".

3) Because of Adam's sin and banishment from the Garden and the Tree of Life, everyone since then is born separated from God (spiritually "dead") and we are also subject to physical death. (Romans 5:12, John 3:3-7)

4) The result of being born apart from God means we do not have the Holy Spirit to lead us into righteousness. (John 3:3-7)
4a) We make choices based upon our physical needs and wants. (James 1:14-15)
4b) There is nothing inherently sinful about the physical needs and wants. Jesus had the same desires.
4c) By the time we become aware of making choices based on morality, instead of just physically, we are too accustomed to our physical wants that we are unable to make clear, right choices.
4d) This results in choosing sin.

Like I said, this is a very brief sketch. I've come to these conclusions after many years of Bible study.

I once held to the false doctrine of inherited sin, but changed my opinion when I began to analyze it closely.

Grace40
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:48 PM
I have also seen this doctrine on other forums and in some chat rooms. Seems that those who believe this haven't read Romans 5:12:

Lol or they don't have children. Babies/toddlers will do what they know they should not and hope they don't get caught. We are all born sinners.

holyrokker
Jan 22nd 2009, 06:37 PM
Lol or they don't have children. Babies/toddlers will do what they know they should not and hope they don't get caught. We are all born sinners.
Babies do not behave that way. Babies cry when the are hungry. Is that a sin? Babies cry when they are in pain. Is that a sin? Babies cry when the are uncomfortable. Is that a sin?

Babies cry because that's all they can do to let the parents know that something is wrong.

Toddlers sometimes do what is wrong, but not always. Toddlers are in the process of learning right from wrong.

The Bible doesn't teach that we are born sinners. That is a man-made doctrine (Augustine) introduced into the Church.

It must first be presumed to be true, then a few passages taken out of context are applied to the presumed truth.

That's backwards from how we should study Scripture and arrive at doctrinal conclusions.

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:12 PM
Babies do not behave that way. Babies cry when the are hungry. Is that a sin? Babies cry when they are in pain. Is that a sin? Babies cry when the are uncomfortable. Is that a sin?

Babies cry because that's all they can do to let the parents know that something is wrong.

Toddlers sometimes do what is wrong, but not always. Toddlers are in the process of learning right from wrong.

The Bible doesn't teach that we are born sinners. That is a man-made doctrine (Augustine) introduced into the Church.

It must first be presumed to be true, then a few passages taken out of context are applied to the presumed truth.

That's backwards from how we should study Scripture and arrive at doctrinal conclusions.

Backwards?

If men are not born sinners....you have this progression.

1. Man born righteous.
2. Man becomes unrighteous through sin.
3. Man made righteous again through Christ.

If men are born sinners....

1. Man born unrighteous.
2. Man made righteous through Christ.

The result is the same....

...However, to say man is not a born sinner, you then have this possibility.

1. Man born righteous.
2. Man dies righteous wihtout need for savior.

Grace40
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:26 PM
Babies do not behave that way. Babies cry when the are hungry. Is that a sin? Babies cry when they are in pain. Is that a sin? Babies cry when the are uncomfortable. Is that a sin?

Babies cry because that's all they can do to let the parents know that something is wrong.

Toddlers sometimes do what is wrong, but not always. Toddlers are in the process of learning right from wrong.

The Bible doesn't teach that we are born sinners. That is a man-made doctrine (Augustine) introduced into the Church.

It must first be presumed to be true, then a few passages taken out of context are applied to the presumed truth.

That's backwards from how we should study Scripture and arrive at doctrinal conclusions.
Not babies babies I mean older babies. My twins are five and I still call them babies. Yes, we are born sinners. I don't think when they where toddlers that I taught them to fight over toys and be mean to each other at times. That is just human nature and we the parents have to teach not to do sinful things.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:28 PM
Not babies babies I mean older babies. My twins are five and I still call them babies. Yes, we are born sinners. I don't think when they where toddlers that I taught them to fight over toys and be mean to each other at times. That is just human nature and we the parents have to teach not to do sinful things.

dont allow them to fool you with talk of hyperbole and such

Psalm 51:5 David, confessing His sinfulness, clearly confesses that he was sinful from His mothers womb. people willl try to take you on a rabbit trail and say that David is talking about his mother being a defiled woman and all this stuff, or some will just dismiss it as "hyperbole" but there are many other Scriptures supporting corruption from birth/infancy


Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth
Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; those who speak lies go astray from birth.
Isaiah 48:8 - "You have not heard, you have not known. Even from long ago your ear has not been open, because I knew that you would deal very treacherously; and you have been called a rebel from birth."
John 3:6 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"
Ecclesiastes 9:3 - the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

the Bible is very clear. if people want to deny what is clearly written let them go their own way the bible is clear that sin comes out of us, it is not just something we choose

Mark 7:21-23 - "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (c.f. Matthew 15:19)

its amazing that we even have to argue this. in fact, i am done with this thread lol

God Bless you all and i pray you will humble yourself under the Holy Word of God


Psalm 51 in the Hebrew Text
To begin with the Hebrew, the verse is roughly transliterated from the original characters
as “ubechete yechemachni imi”
viii
and can be translated as “sinful in my mother’s hot
passion.” The word often translated as “conceived” (“yechemachni” in Hebrew) actually
refers directly to the sexual act of conception and arousal, as the demonstrated by the
rendering of “hot passion.” It could also be more colloquially translated as “sinful from
the time my mother was hot.


David was sinful, not Davids mom was sinful

sheina maidle
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:29 PM
Not babies babies I mean older babies. My twins are five and I still call them babies. Yes, we are born sinners. I don't think when they where toddlers that I taught them to fight over toys and be mean to each other at times. That is just human nature and we the parents have to teach not to do sinful things.
Amen! Anybody who is a parent knows that they never have to teach their children to do wrong:

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. (Proverbs 22:15)

The Bible teaches that all are sinners and that all who are born of Adam's race inherit a sin nature:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)

David knew that he had a sin nature at birth:

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalms 51:5)

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psalms 58:3)

This doesn't mean we are sinning at birth...it means we are all born with the propensity to sin.

Sin brings death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Death is separation. Physical death is the separation of the body from the soul and spirit. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God (not the separation of the spirit). The spirit of man returns to God...it does not die:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

The breath of God is the soul:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:44 PM
Amen! Anybody who is a parent knows that they never have to teach their children to do wrong:

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. (Proverbs 22:15)

The Bible teaches that all are sinners and that all who are born of Adam's race inherit a sin nature:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)

David knew that he had a sin nature at birth:

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalms 51:5)

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psalms 58:3)

This doesn't mean we are sinning at birth...it means we are all born with the propensity to sin.

Sin brings death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Death is separation. Physical death is the separation of the body from the soul and spirit. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God (not the separation of the spirit). The spirit of man returns to God...it does not die:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

The breath of God is the soul:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)


yes, we are also by nature objects of Gods wrath.thats why i cant believe that some people still try to say that man is good on the inside lol how much more clear can it be?

Sirus
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:41 AM
In other words, you are saying that we are sinless...right?Born sinless.


Do we attain sinless perfection in this life?If you believe, do you 'have' eternal life? Jesus says yes. If he died for all of your sin and you are forgiven, do you have any sin? No. So in that sense no Christian is in the flesh and no Christian has sin. To quote 1John 1:9 at this point is out of context. That's not what 1John 1:9 is about.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,



Can a Christian reach a point where he does not sin? I can't imagine it, but I also cannot limit the power of our death burial resurrection and ascension with Christ -gospel- because I have personally experienced it's power to deliver me from the 'stronghold' sins of my life. What I struggled with for 15 years in modern Christian sin nature, black dog/white dog, ancient greek and eastern philosophy ascetic dualism, and gnostic dualism, was brought to nothing in days after I realized and finally believed the gospel that I am truly crucified and dead in Christ.



If so, why do people still die?They die because;
1) in Adam -Adam was created natural and earthy -mortal. Not one scripture implies otherwise.
2) Adam's sin separated man from the tree of life
3) relationship between God and man now had a veil ensuring all men would sin their own sin

Because of those three things death passes on all men. That is the judgment (condemnation) found 2x in Romans 5 and 1x in Romans 8 referencing Genesis 3, specifically -Adam. That Greek word is only found in those two passages.

Sirus
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:49 AM
Amen! Anybody who is a parent knows that they never have to teach their children to do wrong:

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. (Proverbs 22:15)

The Bible teaches that all are sinners and that all who are born of Adam's race inherit a sin nature:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)

David knew that he had a sin nature at birth:

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalms 51:5)

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psalms 58:3)

This doesn't mean we are sinning at birth...it means we are all born with the propensity to sin.

Sin brings death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Death is separation. Physical death is the separation of the body from the soul and spirit. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God (not the separation of the spirit). The spirit of man returns to God...it does not die:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

The breath of God is the soul:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)Where's born in or with sin? Psalms 51:5? What does 'shapen' mean and who was 'in sin'? 'Brought forth in iniquity' is not 'in iniquity'.

Psalms 58:3? Talk about being out of context! Not to mention it says 'they go astray'. Astray from? Is that like Romans 1 saying their sin caused their hearts to be darkened? Darkened from?

sheina maidle
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:00 AM
Where's born in or with sin? Psalms 51:5? What does 'shapen' mean and who was 'in sin'? 'Brought forth in iniquity' is not 'in iniquity'.

Psalms 58:3? Talk about being out of context! Not to mention it says 'they go astray'. Astray from? Is that like Romans 1 saying their sin caused their hearts to be darkened? Darkened from?
That answers my question....you do believe in sinless perfectionism. All I can say is this:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

Good luck!

Sirus
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:21 AM
That answers my question....you do believe in sinless perfectionism.That's funny. I would have thought you would have actually used my answer to this question by you in the previous post.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1955381&postcount=90
I said nothing of attaining sinless perfectionism in this post. It's an easy out for you though, so I understand.

Furthermore the verses in question are OT, are being used by you to support being born with a sin nature without any choice of our own therefore we cannot be judged for it, and they do not apply the blood of Christ and grace given us by his complete and finished work. That's very convenient for you, isn't it?

Clydson
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:29 AM
how would you explain the nature mentioned in ephesians 2? you were by nature objects of Gods wrath? also, why did Jesus say that all wickidness flows from the heart? also why does the Bible call it "sinful flesh"? do these things all simply mean we make bad choices? imo it seems to indicate that it is indeed deeper than just choice. As Jesus said, a bad tree CANNOT produce good fruit. If we are simply sinners because we choose sin, why would the Bible speak so much of sinful actions proceeding from our hearts? is it accurate to say our hearts are just fine? is the heart not the core of a human beings will, thoughts, and actions?

i feel the Bible STRONGLY opposes the idea that we are simply sinners because we choose sin. As Paul says, i know that no good thing dwells in me

the Bible says the carnal mind is HOSTILE to the things of God. that does not sound like a neutral inner state that merely chooses to sin

Jesus also called some Jews sons of their father Satan. The Bible also says the prince of the air(Satan) is now at work IN the sons of disobedience

does this all sound like simply choosing wrong things?
Absolutely! Especially when left in its context. Consider;

Josh 24:15
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
NKJV

1 Kings 18:21
21 And Elijah came to all the people, and said, "How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." But the people answered him not a word.
NKJV

John 6:66-67
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
NKJV

It has always been a choice to serve righteousness or evilness, and it always will be. At least until the last day.

Jake

Clydson
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:40 AM
So, you are saying that we have no sin nature? That we are not born into a state that requires reconciliation to God?
No. I'm saying that scripture does not teach the doctrine of "original sin". I'm saying that this doctrine is man-made.

If man did not have the nature or ability to choose to rebel against God, he could not do it. It is man's choice to sin, not God's enforcement for man to sin. God gave man freewill to choose whom he will serve. And there are only two choices.

Jake

Clydson
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:43 AM
How can it be our natural that needs reconciliation when we are fearfully and wonderfully made in his image knowing right very well as was Adam? Reconciliation has to do with relationship not a nature created and given by God.
Excellent point Sirus! I wish I had made it...

Jake

Sirus
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:46 AM
Thanks! God said it was good, not perfect. Natural, earthy, mortal, man was good for his plan of redemption, which is in Christ (heavenly), from the foundation of the world!

wtj
Jan 25th 2009, 03:46 PM
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT shall return unto God who gave it. Eccl. 12:7
It is by the spirit that one is of the old nature or of divine nature
The spirit that god gives to a child is of divine nature not of a fallen nature. God does not promote the work of Satan. Children are born of divine nature and are Holy.
Sin entered the world by partaking of the knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge is a learned trait – from the womb all men learn it and sin.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom. 5:12

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? John 9:2 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. John 9:3

threebigrocks
Jan 25th 2009, 07:40 PM
No. I'm saying that scripture does not teach the doctrine of "original sin". I'm saying that this doctrine is man-made.

If man did not have the nature or ability to choose to rebel against God, he could not do it. It is man's choice to sin, not God's enforcement for man to sin. God gave man freewill to choose whom he will serve. And there are only two choices.

Jake

If death came by 1 man, Adam, to all - how is it that we can be born good. All fall short of the grace of God. All. From day one.


Thanks! God said it was good, not perfect. Natural, earthy, mortal, man was good for his plan of redemption, which is in Christ (heavenly), from the foundation of the world!

Huh? How is it that we have anything to do with our own redemption? We couldn't do anything, we couldn't save ourselves. It is through Christ, who was slain from the foundation of the world, in who we find grace which can lead to redemption.


Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT shall return unto God who gave it. Eccl. 12:7
It is by the spirit that one is of the old nature or of divine nature
The spirit that god gives to a child is of divine nature not of a fallen nature. God does not promote the work of Satan. Children are born of divine nature and are Holy.
Sin entered the world by partaking of the knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge is a learned trait – from the womb all men learn it and sin.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom. 5:12

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? John 9:2 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. John 9:3

God gives us all our spirit, it doesn't come from any other source. Evil cannot give life. It's a matter of what we choose to sow with that nature. No matter what, it does return to God where all are judged. Not all are granted eternal life.

Sirus
Jan 25th 2009, 08:06 PM
Huh? How is it that we have anything to do with our own redemption? We couldn't do anything, we couldn't save ourselves. It is through Christ, who was slain from the foundation of the world, in who we find grace which can lead to redemption.That's exactly what I said and being made natural mortal dying decaying flesh has everything to do with it.

threebigrocks
Jan 25th 2009, 08:19 PM
That's exactly what I said and being made natural mortal dying decaying flesh has everything to do with it.

Gotcha, I misread. :)

holyrokker
Jan 25th 2009, 10:49 PM
Ezekiel 18:19-20 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

The notions of inherited sin and inherited guilt are nowhere to be found in Jewish tradition. Neither is there any indication that these ideas were held in the Church prior to the 5th Century AD.

The doctrine of “Original Sin” originated with Aurelius Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, in North Africa. The central passage of Scripture for this doctrine is Romans 5:12
“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” (English Standard Version).

Notice that the passage says that death passed to all. It does not say that sin or that guilt passed to all men. This is an obvious reference Genesis 2:16-17
"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Adam did indeed die on the day of his disobedience, but his death was not physical; rather it was a spiritual death. Just as physical death is the separation of man's spirit from his body, so spiritual death is separation of man from God. It is the opposite of spiritual life, which is fellowship and communion with God.
Spiritual death is separation, alienation, from God. It is not something wrong inside of man, but a negative or wrong relationship between man and God. Spiritual death is like a barrier between man and God.

A careful interpretation of Romans 5:12 depends upon the Greek prepositional phrase eph hos. This phrase is made up of a preposition (epi) and a relative pronoun (hos).
The preposition has several different meanings depending upon the immediate context and the case of the noun or pronoun with which it occurs. Since the relative pronoun (hos) is in the dative case, it should be translated "on the ground of", "by reason of", "on the condition of", "because of".
The meaning of the relative pronoun depends upon its antecedent. In the Greek language the relative pronoun agrees with its antecedent in number and gender. Here the relative pronoun is singular in number but it may be either masculine or neuter in gender. In this passage, the Greek noun thanatos (death) is the nearest singular noun, making thanatos its logical antecedent.
In this scenario then, the prepositional phrase eph hos would be equivalent to epi thanatos (because of death). In that case, the phrase should be translated "because of which" or "upon which condition."
With this meaning given to the prepositional phrase, the whole clause may be translated "because of which all sinned" and interpreted to mean that all men sinned because of the death (spiritual) that of Adam.
What this means is that Adam sinned. The result of his sin was death (separation from God). Adam was subsequently driven from the Garden and banned fro the Tree of Life.
This has resulted in a "death sentence" upon all of humanity. All of mankind is born (physically) with a spiritual separation from God.

This idea is further developed in the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in the third chapter of John. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:5-6)

Here Jesus is telling Nicodemus that a spiritual birth is needed in order to have a right relationship with God, since mankind is born spiritually dead (separated from God).
Jesus is not saying that there is an inherent sinfulness to the physical birth; simply that a physical birth is not sufficient. Since God is Spirit, we must be born of the Spirit to have a relationship with Him.

holyrokker
Jan 25th 2009, 10:58 PM
I posted this in another thread,( http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1957874&postcount=8 ) but I think it applies here, too.




There is only one word used in the Greek New Testament that is translated as "flesh" - that word is "sarx".

It refers to the physical body, as opposed to what is spiritual.

It's the same word used in verses such as Luke 3:6 "...and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."

It's also used in John 3:6 when Jesus said; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

After Adam sinned, God drove him from the Garden of Eden, and banned him from the tree of life.

Genesis 3:22-24 "Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."

As a result, we also do not have access to the tree of life. When we are born, we are separated from God (spiritually).

That why Jesus said; "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' " (John 3:7)

Since we are born physically, not spiritually, we do not have the advantage of the Holy Spirit to direct our hearts and minds. We naturally do what the body desires.

Those desires aren't inherently sinful, though; just natural. (similar to animals?)

So when we begin to be aware of right and wrong, we are already accustomed to choosing whatever pleases the body (flesh).

If we get a sense that maybe giving into a particular desire is inappropriate in a certain instance, it's foreign to us.

That's why James can say:

James 1:14-15 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Once we've made a choice contrary to our conscience, we've sinned.

Romans 2:14-15 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Once we've sinned, we are guilty, and condemned by our conscience, becoming slaves to sin.

Romans 6:15 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 6:19 For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

BCF
Jan 26th 2009, 12:38 AM
How can it be our natural that needs reconciliation when we are fearfully and wonderfully made in his image knowing right very well as was Adam? Reconciliation has to do with relationship not a nature created and given by God.

But God did not create sin......Adam did.

Yes....God created Adam and Eve in His own likeness, and did indeed call it good. But that was before the fall of man that God called His creation good. After the fall of man....God said in Genesis 3:22:

"22. Then the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

From what I gather in my studies of scripture, what God is saying here is......since Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life, they have now become a god. A god to themselves. I say this b/c of what God says in this verse that I have highlighted in bold.

If I would not be correct with this, you are welcome to tell me who God could possibly mean by "like one of
Us" then? Who was God talking to when He said one of Us?

Also.....if reconciliation has to do with relationship not a nature created and given by God as you said, why did God destroy His creation that you seem to believe God thought was so good.... with a flood?

God Bless,

Dave

Sirus
Jan 26th 2009, 02:06 AM
But God did not create sin......Adam did.

Yes....God created Adam and Eve in His own likeness, and did indeed call it good. But that was before the fall of man that God called His creation good. After the fall of man....God said in Genesis 3:22:

"22. Then the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."

From what I gather in my studies of scripture, what God is saying here is......since Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life, they have now become a god. A god to themselves. I say this b/c of what God says in this verse that I have highlighted in bold.

If I would not be correct with this, you are welcome to tell me who God could possibly mean by "like one of
Us" then? Who was God talking to when He said one of Us?

Also.....if reconciliation has to do with relationship not a nature created and given by God as you said, why did God destroy His creation that you seem to believe God thought was so good.... with a flood?

God Bless,

Dave

No one 'created' a thing called sin. It is not a thing to be created. Either is evil, yet Isaiah 45 says God created evil. It means he created the environment whereby evil could be done. Adam was not the first to sin. Lucifer was. God created all things knowing full well what it would bring, and that is sin. So, who created sin? Not who created a thing but who made sin possible? God did. God created evil right? Not evil itself. It is not a thing to be created.

As for your second attempted point, well, man wasn't having a relationship with him were they? Man was so separated by God in those days that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison from that time. Why? God then renewed the covenant he made with Adam with Noah.