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wombat
Jan 20th 2009, 03:06 PM
Hello! I want to share a few interesting things I've discovered as I've been reading the book of I Kings, in particular how it seems to hold clues to the book of Revelation. I have done some extensive study on this, and there is much to share, so please excuse me for breaking the information into several separate posts. I'll start with this one, then add more as soon as I can get back to my computer.

First, let's take a look at interesting numbers. The Book of 1st Kings is the 11th book of the Bible. It has 22 chapters. The Book of Revelation also has 22 chapters, but it is the 66th book of the Bible. As I've been studying Bible prophecy, I notice that multiples of 11 keep showing up (11, 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99, and the same for 111, 222, 333, 444, 555, 666, 777, 888, and 999). The Greek text of the Book of Revelation actually has 888 words, which is also interesting, because 8 represents Jesus.

I Kings and Revelation also have a unique connection in that both books speak of the number 666. In Revelation 13:18, it says, "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six." In I Kings 10:14, it says, "Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold." Notice that both numbers are connected to an economic theme. The number of the beast, which gives the beast control over the world's financial matters, and the wealth of gold given to Solomon in a year's time. I find it interesting that the verse from Revelation also mentions "Here is wisdom," for there surely is a connection with I Kings here, King Solomon being noted for his incredible wisdom.

wombat
Jan 20th 2009, 03:23 PM
Here is some more from my research:

I calculated the number of Solomon's name in Greek, and it totaled 1260. This is interesting because the number 1260 is also that used to describe 3.5 years of the tribulation period. It is the number of years that the two witnesses of Revelation will prophesy.

I also calculated the number for Shulamite in Greek. Remember from Song of Solomon that the woman is called the "Shulamite." Her number totaled 1261. This is only one more than Solomon's number. I've heard scholars say that the Song of Solomon is a representation of Christ and His Bride, the Church. If so, could 1260 (Solomon) + 1261 (Shulamite), which equals 2521 (only 1 more than 2520, which is 7 years), represent the 1st day after the 7-year tribulation in which Christ and His bride begin to reign in the Millennial Kingdom? On a side note here, the Book of Ruth also is said to represent Christ and His Bride (Boaz, the redeemer and husband of Ruth), and it is the 8th book of the Bible. The number 8 represents Jesus.

wombat
Jan 20th 2009, 03:28 PM
And a bit more from my research:

I Kings has several topics of interest prophetically speaking. It details the life of Solomon, including the building of the first temple. Revelation 11 speaks of measuring the temple that will be built in the last days. I Kings also details the ministry of Elijah, whom many scholars believe will be one of the two witnesses of Revelation. Notice Revelation 11 also tells us about the two witnesses and their resurrection after being killed by the antiChrist. I find it interesting that both the temple measurement and the two witnesses are spoken of in the 11th chapter of Revelation (notice the 11).

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2009, 08:18 PM
Well, I have to give you credit for figuring out all those numbers whether it means anything or not. :spin:

shepherdsword
Jan 21st 2009, 12:31 AM
wombat , I want to caution you against a tendency that has ruined many a good bible student...numeric paredolia.

It is the same tendency that some people exhibit when they see the virgin Mary in the patterns on a burned piece of toast. It appears to look like her but it is sheer apophenia. It is also a somewhat similar error that many scholars make when they adopt the gematria that comes from the kaballah and begin to see the unfolding of future events in the "Bible Code"

Jerome1
Jan 21st 2009, 01:14 AM
Wombat could you show us how you calculated Solomon's and Shulamite's names in Greek to arrive at 2521.

Wasn't the vast majority of the Old Testament orignally written in Hebrew? Why then would you calculate their names from Greek?

What form of numerology did you use?

markedward
Jan 21st 2009, 01:45 AM
First, let's take a look at interesting numbers. The Book of 1st Kings is the 11th book of the Bible. It has 22 chapters. The Book of Revelation also has 22 chapters, but it is the 66th book of the Bible. As I've been studying Bible prophecy, I notice that multiples of 11 keep showing up (11, 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99, and the same for 111, 222, 333, 444, 555, 666, 777, 888, and 999). The Greek text of the Book of Revelation actually has 888 words, which is also interesting, because 8 represents Jesus.Considering the original manuscripts of the books of the Bible had no numerical divisions, and neither did they have a specific order to be placed in... this sort of numerology is all in your head. It starts off with you noticing mere coincidence, and then you start looking for more coincidences. Here are things I call into question:


"The Book of 1st Kings is the 11th book of the Bible" = Consider that Judges and Ruth were originally one scroll. Then consider that 1 and 2 Samuel were originally one scroll. Then consider that 1 and 2 Kings were originally one scroll. That means, originally, Kings was the ninth book of the Bible, if we go in the order that it is in now. (By extension, this would make Judges/Ruth the seventh book, so Ruth wouldn't be the 8th book, and 1/2Samuel would be the 8th book. Now what are we going to connect 1/2Samuel to since it's the 8th book instead of Ruth? Whatever we think works, right? In this case people will clamor for David.)
"the 11th book of the Bible" = On this point, keep in mind that originally the Bible was not as it is now. All of the "books" of the Bible were originally scrolls, and they were kept separately, not in one volume. So, originally, there was no ordering of the Bible.
"It has 22 chapters." = Originally, it had no chapters and no verses. It was just one whole. Plus, even if we did count the number of chapters and verses it has now, it was still originally one 'book' together with 2 Kings. That's... 47 chapters.
"The Book of Revelation also has 22 chapters" = Again, it originally didn't have chapter divisions. Those were added in at a far later date in time than when it was actually written.
"but it is the 66th book of the Bible." = Again, not if you take into account that there was no ordering to begin with.
"The Greek text of the Book Revelation actually has 888 words" = Which Greek text? Many copies have been found, and none of them are exactly the same.
"8 is the number of Jesus" = What about 1, as in one Messiah? Or three, He's a trinity? Or 4, He has four gospels? (Coincidentally, however, 888 is the Greek gematria of Jesus' name in Greek.)


I Kings and Revelation also have a unique connection in that both books speak of the number 666.Again, "I Kings" was originally one whole book with "II Kings". So, Kings has 666 in it. But does that even mean anything, once the other coincidences fall apart when you re-unite the two books?

Again, numerology starts with noticing a few coincidences, then you start looking for them everywhere, and then start pushing them into the texts where there's no reason to find them.


I find it interesting that the verse from Revelation also mentions "Here is wisdom,"John was simply saying to use wisdom in deciphering the meaning of the number, because, as he said, it was the number of the beast's name, and that the number was a man's number (and hence, the number of a man's name).

wombat
Jan 21st 2009, 02:07 AM
Wombat could you show us how you calculated Solomon's and Shulamite's names in Greek to arrive at 2521. Wasn't the vast majority of the Old Testament orignally written in Hebrew? Why then would you calculate their names from Greek? What form of numerology did you use?
Hi, Jerome1! I actually did it with both Hebrew and Greek, though it was the Greek spelling that came up with this interesting number. In Hebrew it totaled 375 for Solomon and 786 for Shulamite, to equal 1161. I found the spelling in Strong's Greek concordance and Strong's Hebrew concordance. I don't have a reference for the alphanumeric pages I used to find out the values, but I just Googled ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew language/spelling and found references to their numbering system. Greek and Hebrew are the only languages I know of that use an alpha-numeric-type language, and it is significant that both are languages used by the Bible authors.

Shulamite (Greek)
Σ 200
Ο 70
Υ 400
Λ 30
Α 1
Μ 40
Ι 10
Τ 300
Ι 10
Σ 200


1261


Solomon (Greek)
Σ 200
Ο 70
Λ 30
Ο 70
Μ 40
Ω 800
Ν 50





1260

Jerome1
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:44 AM
Hi, Jerome1! I actually did it with both Hebrew and Greek, though it was the Greek spelling that came up with this interesting number. In Hebrew it totaled 375 for Solomon and 786 for Shulamite, to equal 1161. I found the spelling in Strong's Greek concordance and Strong's Hebrew concordance. I don't have a reference for the alphanumeric pages I used to find out the values, but I just Googled ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew language/spelling and found references to their numbering system. Greek and Hebrew are the only languages I know of that use an alpha-numeric-type language, and it is significant that both are languages used by the Bible authors.

Shulamite (Greek)
Σ 200
Ο 70
Υ 400
Λ 30
Α 1
Μ 40
Ι 10
Τ 300
Ι 10
Σ 200


1261


Solomon (Greek)
Σ 200
Ο 70
Λ 30
Ο 70
Μ 40
Ω 800
Ν 50





1260

Thanks for the info wombat, very interesting.

Do you know if you arrived at those figures using the Hebrew numerology of gematria?

I think that is the type of numerology scholars used to support their assertions thats Johns use of the numbers 666 was a reference to Caesar Nero.

shepherdsword
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:57 AM
Thanks for the info wombat, very interesting.

Do you know if you arrived at those figures using the Hebrew numerology of gematria?

I think that is the type of numerology scholars used to support their assertions thats Johns use of the numbers 666 was a reference to Caesar Nero.

Hmmmm,
Now where has he heard THAT before?:hmm:

wombat
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:06 PM
Thanks for the info wombat, very interesting.
Do you know if you arrived at those figures using the Hebrew numerology of gematria? I think that is the type of numerology scholars used to support their assertions thats Johns use of the numbers 666 was a reference to Caesar Nero.
You're welcome, Jerome1! Here is the Hebrew calculation I worked on.

Solomon/Shelomoh (Hebrew)
ה 5
מ 40
ל 30
ש 300








375



Shulamite (Hebrew)
ת 400
י 10
מ 40
ל 30
ו 6
ש 300






786


The totals are different numbers in Hebrew than in Greek, if my findings are correct.

I'm not sure about this, but I suspect that differences in Hebrew and Greek alphanumeric spellings may account for the two different translations of the number of the beast, which are 666 and 616 depending on your Bible's translation. Could it be that 666 is Greek and 616 is Hebrew, or vice-versa?

Jerome1
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:01 PM
The totals are different numbers in Hebrew than in Greek, if my findings are correct.

I'm not sure about this, but I suspect that differences in Hebrew and Greek alphanumeric spellings may account for the two different translations of the number of the beast, which are 666 and 616 depending on your Bible's translation. Could it be that 666 is Greek and 616 is Hebrew, or vice-versa?


I think when Nero's name was translated from Latin into Hebrew an, "n" was added in accordance with the Hebrew translation. Without the added, "n" the total comes to 616.

I didn't know but apparently a saint by the name of Bernard of Clairvaux made a connection between the song of Solomon and Christs return for his Church.

My local Church is named after Saint Bernard,(strange coincidence).

I'd be interested to hear your other connections wombat.

wombat
Jan 24th 2009, 06:51 AM
I think when Nero's name was translated from Latin into Hebrew an, "n" was added in accordance with the Hebrew translation. Without the added, "n" the total comes to 616. I didn't know but apparently a saint by the name of Bernard of Clairvaux made a connection between the song of Solomon and Christs return for his Church. My local Church is named after Saint Bernard,(strange coincidence). I'd be interested to hear your other connections wombat.
This is very interesting to me, Jerome1! Thanks for the information! I'm going to do some research about Bernard to see what I can discover about this topic. In the meantime, here is another bit of information from my research on I Kings:

I find it interesting that Solomon's throne had 6 steps leading to it, with 6 lions on the right and 6 lions on the left. Here again is another reference to 6's connected with Solomon's reign.

Solomon is an interesting character. It seems that he claimed to love the Lord God, yet from a young age he also worshipped and sacrificed to idols. So he had a reputation for idol worship even before his heart in later life turned far away from God because of the influence of his many wives who worshipped other gods. After one such sacrifice to false gods was made, God asked Solomon what he most wanted, and Solomon asked for wisdom, which pleased God. Solomon became the wisest man in history, as well as vastly wealthy. But even in his wisdom and all the blessings God lavished upon him, his heart turned away to false gods and all his kingdom was to be taken away from him. There is an interesting verse, Isaiah 47:10, that says wealthy Babylon's wisdom and knowledge caused her to turn away from God. Could it be possible that Solomon's reign is a "type" of this Babylon? And if so, could the prophetic Babylon of the future have some similarities to Solomon's reign? And if this is so, should we possibly be on the lookout for a man to arise to power who seems to claim that he believes in our Lord, but that also appears to have an "inclusive" faith that actually denies the truth of God's Word? Could this man seem to be very wise by the people of the entire world, so much so that many peoples will come to seek his help and advice and council just as people in Solomon's day came to Israel's king? Could this man be seen to hold the world's hopes for peace? Notice Solomon's name means "peaceable."

Something to think about!

Jerome1
Jan 27th 2009, 07:52 PM
Hi Wombat i have never studied the comparisons between 1Kings and it's relation to the New Testament, but there are some striking similarities after just reading 1Kings again briefly.

Solomons accession to the throne included him riding on King Davids mule to Gihon(1Kings1:38)

Similar to Christs triumphal entry into Jerusalem, (Matthew21:1-11).

Mary is the one who prompts Christ to perform his first recorded miracle at Cana, (John2:1-12).

Solomon refuses his mothers request regarding Adonijah when he becomes King, (1Kings2:13-25).

Christ said that if the temple was destroyed he would raise it again in three days, (John2:19).

Solomon rebuilt the temple, (1Kings8:1-13).

Christ restored the mans withered hand(Luke6:6-11)

Jeroboam's hand was withered and then restored, (1Kings13:4-6).

Jezebel is a persecutor of Judaism, she kills the prophets and espouses an idolater's religion, (1Kings18:4).

Altough i believe it is a different Jezebel refered to in Revelation2:20, people often associate the name with idolatry, or apostasy. It is also interesting that in 1Kings Elijah is the one to defeat the priests of Baal, and he is also believed to be one of the two witnesses who will return,(Revelation11:1-14), before the second coming of Christ.

wombat
Jan 29th 2009, 09:32 PM
Hi Wombat i have never studied the comparisons between 1Kings and it's relation to the New Testament, but there are some striking similarities after just reading 1Kings again briefly.

Solomons accession to the throne included him riding on King Davids mule to Gihon(1Kings1:38)

Similar to Christs triumphal entry into Jerusalem, (Matthew21:1-11).

Mary is the one who prompts Christ to perform his first recorded miracle at Cana, (John2:1-12).

Solomon refuses his mothers request regarding Adonijah when he becomes King, (1Kings2:13-25).

Christ said that if the temple was destroyed he would raise it again in three days, (John2:19).

Solomon rebuilt the temple, (1Kings8:1-13).

Christ restored the mans withered hand(Luke6:6-11)

Jeroboam's hand was withered and then restored, (1Kings13:4-6).

Jezebel is a persecutor of Judaism, she kills the prophets and espouses an idolater's religion, (1Kings18:4).

Altough i believe it is a different Jezebel refered to in Revelation2:20, people often associate the name with idolatry, or apostasy. It is also interesting that in 1Kings Elijah is the one to defeat the priests of Baal, and he is also believed to be one of the two witnesses who will return,(Revelation11:1-14), before the second coming of Christ.
Thank you for the interesting comparisons, Jerome1! This is very interesting to me!

Roelof
Feb 1st 2009, 04:08 AM
wombat

Very interesting research, keep on digging