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Bex4Jesus
Jan 20th 2009, 05:32 PM
For some reason I was thinking of this recently. Its been really bugging me for a few days. The more I think about it, God killed babies to convince the king to let God's people go. But the king had already agreed to let them go, and God had forced the king to change his mind. When I thought about this, my thought was, "That's horrible"

Do this bother anyone? How do you look at it?

Love to all,

Bex

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 05:40 PM
the reason we think it is horrible is because we dont understand how evil and heinous sin is. Sin is treason against the Mighty and Holy and infinetly good God. It is a disrespect for the words of the Creator of all things. As God declares, "i KILL, and i make alive"

people have a sense that God is just a good fuzzy wuzzy lovey dovey fairy goodness God. He is soverign, and when Jesus comes back, He will slaughter His enemies and the birds will be filled with their flesh. Our God is a God of War.

All humans deserve death. What we should be asking is how could God be gracious enough to allow any of those Egyptians to live.

Psalms 5:5 You HATE all who do evil


that being said, God also loves the world, however His love does not cancel His wrath and righteous anger against sin AND all who sin

there is a Christian saying: God loves the sinner, hates the sin

Problem is that phrase was coined by Mahatma Ghandi who doesnt believe Jesus is God.

God loves the world, but He also hates evil and evildoers.

Anything apart from faith in the true God is sin

The Egyptians served every God except the true God

therefore, our perfect God was just in slaughtering the firstborns

the reason we feel troubled is because we are under the false notion that we arent really that bad, and that the universe is a democracy where everyone gets to vote and give their opinion. Not so with God. He is a dictator, His universe is a monarchy. Whatever He declares shall come to pass. We all deserve to drop dead and die right now. Most Christians are not aware of that

Yes God slaughters babies. Yes God is just. Therefore the babies deserved to be slaughtered. sounds harsh but it is the reality of the Bible and the reality of The true Holy God. This is a God that i can fear and reverence and worship. Not a fairy hippie lovey dovey youre OK im Ok kind of God that is worshipped in many churches today lol

Bex4Jesus
Jan 20th 2009, 05:54 PM
You are obviously entitled to your opinion but I strongly disagree. If we all 'deserve death' God wouldn't have made us in the first place! That doesn't make any sense to me.

And little babies haven't sinned so even if you are saying we deserve death because we sin, the babies had not even done that! Its like God killed the most innocent people for some reason. Like I said, it bothers me.

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 06:02 PM
You are obviously entitled to your opinion but I strongly disagree. If we all 'deserve death' God wouldn't have made us in the first place! That doesn't make any sense to me.

And little babies haven't sinned so even if you are saying we deserve death because we sin, the babies had not even done that! Its like God killed the most innocent people for some reason. Like I said, it bothers me.

so you must conclude that:

A. God killed babies

B. The babies didnt deserve it (your opinion)

So that means God is unjust in your opinion

It is not just my opinion, it is what the Bible says. The Bible says the Lord is perfect in all His ways. The Bible says the Lord kills babies. Therefore the Lord was perfectly righteouss in killing those babies.

it is not just my opinion it is Scripture. God is just. God kills babies. God is just in killing babies. If the babies did not deserve to be killed, God would be unjust. WHat do you call it when you kill someone who doesnt deserve ti? isnt that sin? are you saying God sinned?:hmm:

Bex4Jesus
Jan 20th 2009, 06:10 PM
so you must conclude that:

A. God killed babies

B. The babies didnt deserve it (your opinion)

So that means God is unjust in your opinion

It is not just my opinion, it is what the Bible says. The Bible says the Lord is perfect in all His ways. The Bible says the Lord kills babies. Therefore the Lord was perfectly righteouss in killing those babies.

it is not just my opinion it is Scripture. God is just. God kills babies. God is just in killing babies. If the babies did not deserve to be killed, God would be unjust. WHat do you call it when you kill someone who doesnt deserve ti? isnt that sin? are you saying God sinned?:hmm:

I didn't go that far, but I don't think I could call it "just." I mean....if someone disagreed with you and didn't do what you said, would you kill their babies and their neighbors' babies? I know God has different rules, but still it seems wrong to me. Are you saying you have any problem with it at all??

cross crusader
Jan 20th 2009, 06:15 PM
I didn't go that far, but I don't think I could call it "just." I mean....if someone disagreed with you and didn't do what you said, would you kill their babies and their neighbors' babies? I know God has different rules, but still it seems wrong to me. Are you saying you have any problem with it at all??
God was just pouring out wrath on the egyptians, God pours out his wrath today. the death of the babies was because of the sin of the egyptians, the same reason death of babies happen today for the unsaved. it is not the babies sinning. it is the wrath of God for unrighteousness. john 3:36. this includes multiple things.
Jhn 3:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&v=1&t=NKJV#comm/36)He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 06:26 PM
I didn't go that far, but I don't think I could call it "just." I mean....if someone disagreed with you and didn't do what you said, would you kill their babies and their neighbors' babies? I know God has different rules, but still it seems wrong to me. Are you saying you have any problem with it at all??

the reason i dont have a problem is because i believe that we are born in sin. Many disagree and thats fine with me, but this is another reason why i believe we are born in sin. Born guilty. If the babies did not deserve death and God killed them He would be unjust. If the baby was born in sin and thus deserving of wrath then God is just. I am aware that many will disagree


18 Therefore, as one trespass [5] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+5#f5) led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [6] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+5#f6) leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous


im sure people will disagree with my interpretation shortly, however i read this text to literally mean that all came under the guilt and condemnation of Adams sin. People have many arguments and Greek translation this and that but i hold that Adam represented all of mankind and thus all of mankind fell under condemnation. Therefore babies are under condemnation

the reason i believe i am right is because this interpretation preserves the justice and holiness and perfection of God in killing babies.

As i said, im sure many will try to disagree with me, but i have already discussed it and would not like to argue further on this point for now

BrckBrln
Jan 20th 2009, 06:33 PM
Let God be God. God does what is just and we, as creatures, are in no position to question God, the Creator.

Prophet Daniel
Jan 20th 2009, 06:36 PM
You might not like this answer. I seen people that are absolutely devoted to their partner/lover/husband/spouse. That ultimate kind of love brings ultimate jealousy.

I think that God is jealous about His people and loves them to that extreme point. In the process He uses the disobedient as ensamples. (See book of Jude)

Yes it bothers, but His love covers it. I believe that His full measure of mercy to mankind as discribed in Romans is not yet been revealed.

Bex4Jesus
Jan 20th 2009, 06:39 PM
God was just pouring out wrath on the egyptians, God pours out his wrath today. the death of the babies was because of the sin of the egyptians, the same reason death of babies happen today for the unsaved. it is not the babies sinning. it is the wrath of God for unrighteousness. john 3:36. this includes multiple things.
Jhn 3:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&v=1&t=NKJV#comm/36)He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Wait...are you saying God kills babies today of people who are not saved?

CoffeeCat
Jan 20th 2009, 06:42 PM
I'd look at it this way, Bex: if God was pouring out His wrath on the Egyptians and babies' lives were taken in the process, then we have to know that God is a Just God -- He knows our hearts. If anyone is so young that they couldn't possibly know about Him yet and couldn't possibly make a conscious choice to sin on their own, then could we say that God, being both Just and Loving, would take that into account? I believe He would.

Babies die all the time. Sometimes naturally, sometimes unnaturally -- but we trust God to treat their souls with the same Justice and Love as He's shown for the rest of us, who are sinners. The only difference between us and them is that we've had the chance to deliberately commit sin, as well as come to Christ -- if any babies haven't had either chance, then I fully believe God will do what's right by them, because He is righteous is ways we can't even comprehend. What God gives, He sometimes takes back.... and I know how hard it is for us to wrap our minds around that, but we need to trust that He knows what He's doing.

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 07:04 PM
I'd look at it this way, Bex: if God was pouring out His wrath on the Egyptians and babies' lives were taken in the process, then we have to know that God is a Just God -- He knows our hearts. If anyone is so young that they couldn't possibly know about Him yet and couldn't possibly make a conscious choice to sin on their own, then could we say that God, being both Just and Loving, would take that into account? I believe He would.

Babies die all the time. Sometimes naturally, sometimes unnaturally -- but we trust God to treat their souls with the same Justice and Love as He's shown for the rest of us, who are sinners. The only difference between us and them is that we've had the chance to deliberately commit sin, as well as come to Christ -- if any babies haven't had either chance, then I fully believe God will do what's right by them, because He is righteous is ways we can't even comprehend. What God gives, He sometimes takes back.... and I know how hard it is for us to wrap our minds around that, but we need to trust that He knows what He's doing.


imo it is very easy to understand. We are by nature objects of Gods wrath, as is the rest of mankind. Not hard folks! "I kill and I make alive"

CoffeeCat
Jan 20th 2009, 07:12 PM
imo it is very easy to understand. We are by nature objects of Gods wrath, as is the rest of mankind. Not hard folks! "I kill and I make alive"

Let's balance that by saying we're objects of God's salvation, and that He desires to have us know Him. We don't deserve salvation because we sin, but God offers it all the same. If a baby who has had neither the chance to deliberately sin OR to come to Christ dies, even though he/she has a sin nature, I'd prefer to trust in God's justness and mercy. His ways aren't ours. If we just leave it at "we're all objects of God's wrath because of our human nature", then where does that leave the millions of babies who die every year? Hopeless, without a chance, hellbound because of their human nature? I don't believe so. As I said before... He knows our hearts. And that's all I'll say about that. I trust HIM to do what's right. God does NOT create something merely to permanently destroy it.

SnakeWesker
Jan 20th 2009, 07:18 PM
I agree with CoffeeCat. I'm sure those babies didn't go to Hell when they were killed. God was punishing the Egyptian adults and leaders, not the babies.

CoffeeCat
Jan 20th 2009, 07:23 PM
Here's another thought.

Exodus 11:1 - 12:36 mentions all firstborns being killed. Does this mean babies, per se? I'd say no. Firstborn can mean anyone of any age.

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 07:26 PM
I agree with CoffeeCat. I'm sure those babies didn't go to Hell when they were killed. God was punishing the Egyptian adults and leaders, not the babies.

i was not claiming that the babies went to hell, i was simply arguing for the justice of God in killing babies. as it may be obvious by my logname i am more of a calvinist in my interpretation so that may help you all see where i am coming from

cross crusader
Jan 20th 2009, 08:03 PM
Wait...are you saying God kills babies today of people who are not saved?
no. God doesnt kill babies of unsaved people, they are just not promised anything from God. does that make sense? if they are not His then they have no promise of life or life more abundantly. it is not the babies fault, let me make that clear, they cannot decide for themselves if they are going to follow God or their enviroment, as we learned from the egyptians,unsaved people, the death of those babies was because of wrath on wicked people. today if you are not of God then you are subject to fear and death, including your children. Hebrews 2.

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 08:08 PM
no. God doesnt kill babies of unsaved people, they are just not promised anything from God. does that make sense? if they are not His then they have no promise of life or life more abundantly. it is not the babies fault, let me make that clear, they cannot decide for themselves if they are going to follow God or their enviroment, as we learned from the egyptians,unsaved people, the death of those babies was because of wrath on wicked people. today if you are not of God then you are subject to fear and death, including your children. Hebrews 2.


just a sidenote on that, David had a baby killed, though it was Gods judgement over the whole situation, He did indeed kill a baby of one of His own people

SnakeWesker
Jan 20th 2009, 08:11 PM
Also very true! I never thought of it that way! So most of these firstborns could have been fifteen years old, for all we know.

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 08:26 PM
not to be harsh, but God did condone the specific killing of babies and even pregnant women. Forgive me if these verses are out of context, i just grabbed this list off of a website, please read the context for yourselves as there may be error



Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
Deuteronomy 2:34 utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.
Deuteronomy 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Lamentations 2:20 Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.
Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

moonglow
Jan 20th 2009, 08:27 PM
Here's another thought.

Exodus 11:1 - 12:36 mentions all firstborns being killed. Does this mean babies, per se? I'd say no. Firstborn can mean anyone of any age.

No where does it say babies were killed. I am my mother's first born child...but I am 48 years old! Bex4Jesus is assuming it meant they were all babies..but more then likely few were babies...IF any babies at all. We don't know because no verse says so.

I saw an interesting show a few weeks ago about how the plagues of Egypt might have come about...I know some will object to this, but I do believe God uses natural means to enact supernatural things. (timing is everything!) Anyway they said it was common for the first born of Egypt to be served the grain on top of what they had in each other their homes. And the grain just on top had been contaminated (I forget now how but it had to do with the other plagues)...but that was why only the first born died. They ate it and got sick and died. Now a little baby could not be served grain...but Bex4Jesus is overlooking the fact that it was Pharaoh AND the Egyptian people that were killing all the male babies of the Hebrews...this how this whole thing got started in the first place. Its like oh its ok if they were killing these baby boys but how dare God cause any of their babies to die...:rolleyes: (if indeed any babies did die).


reformedct


just a sidenote on that, David had a baby killed, though it was Gods judgement over the whole situation, He did indeed kill a baby of one of His own people

Post scripture please.

In the OT those pagan nations that went after the old, the young, the weak of the Hebrews coming out of Egypt and later (after they had many, many years to stop tormenting and killing the Hebrews) THEN God had the Hebrews go to war against them and yes then babies were killed. Alot of reasons why for that and I have told Bex4Jesus why before. The Hebrews were in the desert, traveling by tents...no CPS to turn them over too and no way to care for them. The choices were this...let them die slowly starving to death in the desert...have wild animals get them...let them stay with their pagan parents (who were throwing them alive into fire as a sacrifice to their pagan gods) which would mean allowing the parents to live and keep killing the Hebrews AND their own babies...not alot of good choices here...so the most merciful thing to do was kill them by the sword quickly. I would choose that over being burned alive any day!

Of course God could have zapped them into robots making them 'behave' taking away their free will....but then everyone would be objecting to that!

How dare God take away people's free will...who does He think He is anyway? We have a right to burn our babies alive! ugh!

Good question...shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes? (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/rbutcher1.html)

There is the link again Bex4Jesus for you.

God bless

moonglow
Jan 20th 2009, 08:41 PM
not to be harsh, but God did condone the specific killing of babies and even pregnant women. Forgive me if these verses are out of context, i just grabbed this list off of a website, please read the context for yourselves as there may be error



Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
Deuteronomy 2:34 utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.
Deuteronomy 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Lamentations 2:20 Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.
Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.


You know atheist don't need help...
Please read those in content...many of those apply to what the pagans did to the Jews. Also it would be extremely helpful, especially to new Christians and those weak in faith if you would explain why these things happened...what truly horrible things were the Jews or others were doing to cause such judgment to come upon them? Otherwise all this does it make God look horribly cruel, evil and unjust and you could shake the faith of the Christians I mentioned.

Take this one for instance: Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Adam Clark bible commentary: (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ho&chapter=013)
Verse 16. Samaria shall become desolate
This was the capital of the Israelitish kingdom. What follows is a simple prophetic declaration of the cruelties which should be exercised upon this hapless people by the Assyrians in the sackage of the city.

It needs to be explained that God does not always condone or command such things...these were either things that did happen (the bible is a history book and shows how awful people can be to each other) or were going to happen. Many times we can clearly see how the adults did things to bring on this type of horror all by themselves. Just as we still do today. Take the Gaza Strip for instance...because the people voted in a terrorist group to lead them they are now being bombed..knowing its because this terrorist group is bombing Israel. Instead of telling this group to stop is so their children can be safe, they instead blame Israel for defending itself. :rolleyes: Makes no sense at all! Yet this is the type of thing people did in the OT all the time.. it would be like allowing someone in your home that you knew liked to start fires...and doing nothing to protect your children. Then blaming the fire...not the person that started it for burning your home down and killing your children...

God bless

moonglow
Jan 20th 2009, 08:46 PM
Also very true! I never thought of it that way! So most of these firstborns could have been fifteen years old, for all we know.

My son just turned 13 and he is my first born..only born actually..lol..my mom is sixty something years old and she is first born...only born too! So if all of us were living in Egypt at this time and were Egyptians all three of us could have died...three generations gone like that ..poof. But none of us are babies by any means. So yes...assuming they were babies is putting something in scriptures that isn't there.

(glad I cook my grain...:lol:)

God bless

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 08:57 PM
No where does it say babies were killed. I am my mother's first born child...but I am 48 years old! Bex4Jesus is assuming it meant they were all babies..but more then likely few were babies...IF any babies at all. We don't know because no verse says so.

I saw an interesting show a few weeks ago about how the plagues of Egypt might have come about...I know some will object to this, but I do believe God uses natural means to enact supernatural things. (timing is everything!) Anyway they said it was common for the first born of Egypt to be served the grain on top of what they had in each other their homes. And the grain just on top had been contaminated (I forget now how but it had to do with the other plagues)...but that was why only the first born died. They ate it and got sick and died. Now a little baby could not be served grain...but Bex4Jesus is overlooking the fact that it was Pharaoh AND the Egyptian people that were killing all the male babies of the Hebrews...this how this whole thing got started in the first place. Its like oh its ok if they were killing these baby boys but how dare God cause any of their babies to die...:rolleyes: (if indeed any babies did die).


Post scripture please.

In the OT those pagan nations that went after the old, the young, the weak of the Hebrews coming out of Egypt and later (after they had many, many years to stop tormenting and killing the Hebrews) THEN God had the Hebrews go to war against them and yes then babies were killed. Alot of reasons why for that and I have told Bex4Jesus why before. The Hebrews were in the desert, traveling by tents...no CPS to turn them over too and no way to care for them. The choices were this...let them die slowly starving to death in the desert...have wild animals get them...let them stay with their pagan parents (who were throwing them alive into fire as a sacrifice to their pagan gods) which would mean allowing the parents to live and keep killing the Hebrews AND their own babies...not alot of good choices here...so the most merciful thing to do was kill them by the sword quickly. I would choose that over being burned alive any day!

Of course God could have zapped them into robots making them 'behave' taking away their free will....but then everyone would be objecting to that!

How dare God take away people's free will...who does He think He is anyway? We have a right to burn our babies alive! ugh!

Good question...shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes? (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/rbutcher1.html)

There is the link again Bex4Jesus for you.

God bless

2 samuel 12

The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Samuel+12#f2) the child who is born to you shall die.” 15 Then Nathan went to his house.And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick. 16 David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground.

it was the Lord who afflicted the child

as i stated in my earlier post those texts may have been out of context as i warned i put that disclaimer in already

moonglow
Jan 20th 2009, 09:20 PM
2 samuel 12

The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Samuel+12#f2) the child who is born to you shall die.” 15 Then Nathan went to his house.And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick. 16 David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground.

it was the Lord who afflicted the child

as i stated in my earlier post those texts may have been out of context as i warned i put that disclaimer in already

Ok but you need to explain why this happen in content. David had an affair with another man's wife! And then she got pregnant and in order to try to cover his sin he got her husband out of battle and had him come home hoping he would sleep with his wife...then think it was his baby..and no one would know what David did. The man instead was so faithful to David he stayed with David instead refusing to be with his wife. So then David plotted to have him killed putting him in the front lines of the battle. He was killed then David took her as his wife to make it appear then she conceived after they were married. David was sinning horribly against God and as the king of his people he was to set an example but doing right. Instead he murdered and committed adultery. He and her..did not deserve the child.

This was part of their punishment. God was going to kill David himself but David finally repented. It can be read here:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=11&version=50

Its just really helpful to know what was going on...usually on atheist websites they love to list these types of verses with no explanation at all and then go see how cruel God was...so we need to do better and explain things don't you think? So I am kindly suggesting if you want to keep posting scriptures like this you explain why God did what He did so you do not cause someone to stumble.

God bless

cross crusader
Jan 20th 2009, 11:33 PM
just a sidenote on that, David had a baby killed, though it was Gods judgement over the whole situation, He did indeed kill a baby of one of His own people
i agree with that, the same can happen with christians today, if we disobey then things like that can happen as a result of judgement, although i believe it is a handing over to satan rather than God himself doing it. But it is His judgement nonetheless.

reformedct
Jan 21st 2009, 12:02 AM
Ok but you need to explain why this happen in content. David had an affair with another man's wife! And then she got pregnant and in order to try to cover his sin he got her husband out of battle and had him come home hoping he would sleep with his wife...then think it was his baby..and no one would know what David did. The man instead was so faithful to David he stayed with David instead refusing to be with his wife. So then David plotted to have him killed putting him in the front lines of the battle. He was killed then David took her as his wife to make it appear then she conceived after they were married. David was sinning horribly against God and as the king of his people he was to set an example but doing right. Instead he murdered and committed adultery. He and her..did not deserve the child.

This was part of their punishment. God was going to kill David himself but David finally repented. It can be read here:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=11&version=50

Its just really helpful to know what was going on...usually on atheist websites they love to list these types of verses with no explanation at all and then go see how cruel God was...so we need to do better and explain things don't you think? So I am kindly suggesting if you want to keep posting scriptures like this you explain why God did what He did so you do not cause someone to stumble.

God bless

you are right i should have toned it down and explained more. the point i was trying to make is that God is just even if he takes the life of a child or baby or whatever. thats all i was trying to say. it is sad that babies must die, but my interpretation is that we are born under condemnation, born sinners, so God is just to let one live or die. That is just my view for now. I hope none of you stumbled because of my posts

moonglow
Jan 21st 2009, 02:55 AM
you are right i should have toned it down and explained more. the point i was trying to make is that God is just even if he takes the life of a child or baby or whatever. thats all i was trying to say. it is sad that babies must die, but my interpretation is that we are born under condemnation, born sinners, so God is just to let one live or die. That is just my view for now. I hope none of you stumbled because of my posts

I agree.

My concern is just posting individual verses which is what those that attack the bible do, with no background as to what lead up to these events. By themselves they look truly horrible....though sadly we still do horrible things to babies and children even today...:(

But yet its God that decides these things.

God bless

Bex4Jesus
Jan 21st 2009, 01:26 PM
Yikes! Someone can close the thread if they feel the need. I did not mean for this to start such a debate....I was just having a hard time with that story and wanted opinions on it.

Brother Mark
Jan 21st 2009, 01:41 PM
Here's another thought.

Exodus 11:1 - 12:36 mentions all firstborns being killed. Does this mean babies, per se? I'd say no. Firstborn can mean anyone of any age.

Very good and very right. The firstborn included many an old man and old woman. It was simply all the first born in Egypt.

Brother Mark
Jan 21st 2009, 01:44 PM
For some reason I was thinking of this recently. Its been really bugging me for a few days. The more I think about it, God killed babies to convince the king to let God's people go. But the king had already agreed to let them go, and God had forced the king to change his mind. When I thought about this, my thought was, "That's horrible"

Do this bother anyone? How do you look at it?

Love to all,

Bex

Hi Bex. Because of sin, many things happen that neither we nor God like very much.

1. The curse of Egypt fell on Jesus too, the firstborn of God. He gave his firstborn so I wouldn't have to give mine.

2. Darkness fell on Egypt. But at the crucifixion, darkness fell on Jesus.

I could go on and on but you get the picture. The plagues of Egypt fall on all of us unless we are in Christ. But God took those plagues on himself so we don't have to experience them. The point is, the plagues of Egypt will fall. Will they fall on us, or will we take refuge in Christ and let them fall on him? The wages of sin will be paid but God in his mercy and grace is willing to pay the debt for us. Pharaoh should have listened to God early on.

On another note, if you look at Pharaoh, he hardened his own heart several times. Later it says God hardened it. Anytime we ignore the word of God our heart gets hardened.

Grace and peace.

Mark

daughter
Jan 21st 2009, 01:54 PM
For some reason I was thinking of this recently. Its been really bugging me for a few days. The more I think about it, God killed babies to convince the king to let God's people go. But the king had already agreed to let them go, and God had forced the king to change his mind. When I thought about this, my thought was, "That's horrible"

Do this bother anyone? How do you look at it?

Love to all,

Bex
Well, the first born does not mean "baby." Most first borns in most families are grown up. Pharaoh's first born would have been the general of the Egyptian army most like, and not an "innocent baby."

My father's first born, for example, (assuming the first born to be the first male born) is a 36 year old man, whereas my first born is coming up to thirteen.

Yes, it's horrible that people died, but most of them had been quietly looking the other way while Hebrew babies were being exposed, and thrown into the Nile to drown.

The true innocents, those first born who had not sinned, will be in heaven. Perhaps some of their parents repented of their wickedness, and came to know God through their suffering. Certainly Egypt as a nation did seem to recognise that the God of Israel was more powerful than their "king", and that could have led some to salvation.

Bex4Jesus
Jan 21st 2009, 03:54 PM
I really don't like the idea that its kinder for little kids to die as little kids because at least they will go to heaven as opposed to living longer lives that may include sin and the possibility they will go to Hell.

If you think that way, you can justify allllll sorts of things, including one big thing that I will not mention by name but I think you know what I'm talking about.

Confused,

Bex

Veretax
Jan 21st 2009, 04:05 PM
For some reason I was thinking of this recently. Its been really bugging me for a few days. The more I think about it, God killed babies to convince the king to let God's people go. But the king had already agreed to let them go, and God had forced the king to change his mind. When I thought about this, my thought was, "That's horrible"

Do this bother anyone? How do you look at it?

Love to all,

Bex

God is a Holy God, and sinful man cannot stand against him. No the Plagues do not bother me. In fact having read through the account, God hinted at the 10th Plague well before Moses got in front of Pharoah.


Exodus 4:22-23 (NKJV)

22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’ ”



We tend to look at the Plagues as each being distinct and Individual Judgments but I believe they are all part of God's perfect Judgment upon egypt at that time. So I believe that pharoah hardened his heart, and God also hardened pharoah's heart so that his wonders could be completed:


Exodus 4:21 (NKJV)

21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.


God even told moses what would be the end result:


Exodus 7:3-5 (NKJV)

3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4 But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them.”



This past weekend they reaired a documentary about the Exodus account, and they were theorizing that the plagues may have been caused by a massive eruption of a Volcano in the Mediterranean. The name itself I have forgotten, but if that is true, then it would explain how these wonders were all tied together in one natural event that took place, yet having the ten different consequences or plagues.

But this is God's judgment upon egypt, so then who are we as men to doubt or be upset at it.

daughter
Jan 21st 2009, 04:19 PM
I really don't like the idea that its kinder for little kids to die as little kids because at least they will go to heaven as opposed to living longer lives that may include sin and the possibility they will go to Hell.

If you think that way, you can justify allllll sorts of things, including one big thing that I will not mention by name but I think you know what I'm talking about.

Confused,

Bex
I'm not suggesting that we should destroy God's plans for people's lives by killing them ourselves, or that we can justify atrocities like (for example) abortion by saying, "it's okay, at least they're in heaven." But every single one of us is going to die at some time. And God knows in advance when that time will be, and what will be the circumstances of it.

I think that when God judged Egypt He knew what He was doing, and that good came out of it... This is not the same as a human being setting themself up as judge and executioner. I trust God, when it comes down to it. I don't, however, trust man.

Bex4Jesus
Jan 21st 2009, 04:27 PM
I'm not suggesting that we should destroy God's plans for people's lives by killing them ourselves, or that we can justify atrocities like (for example) abortion by saying, "it's okay, at least they're in heaven." But every single one of us is going to die at some time. And God knows in advance when that time will be, and what will be the circumstances of it.

I think that when God judged Egypt He knew what He was doing, and that good came out of it... This is not the same as a human being setting themself up as judge and executioner. I trust God, when it comes down to it. I don't, however, trust man.

Sorry daughter! I didn't mean to imply I was putting words in your mouth. I meant "you" in the more general way.

daughter
Jan 21st 2009, 04:31 PM
It's okay... I can see how folks could misinterpret or misunderstand my point of view. I was just clarifying. Having seen a lot of death recently I've really come to change my views on the subject. I used to think it was the worst thing that can happen. Now I realise it's the one thing that definitely will happen, and whether what comes from it is good or bad is what matters. God ordains the days of our lives... and from my personal observations, sometimes death can be a transformative liberating experience for the one who dies (I saw this with my husband), just as much as it can be the end of everything. What matters is how we are with God when we die... not so much the when.

VerticalReality
Jan 21st 2009, 04:39 PM
Agree, daughter . . .

People tend to view death as the absolute most horrible thing ever. It all depends on your perspective. In the grand scheme of things this life is very small.