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Bladers
Jan 20th 2009, 06:28 PM
Is Jesus equal to the Father? and why do some say He is not while the scriptures states otherwise?

Walstib
Jan 20th 2009, 07:10 PM
Hi Bladers,

A leading question you have there. Got a baited line looking to draw in some prey.... :P

Some people may define equal a bit different than others. Equal in what ways context.

Share some scriptures on topic of what you want to discuss maybe.

Firstfruits
Jan 20th 2009, 07:54 PM
Is Jesus equal to the Father? and why do some say He is not while the scriptures states otherwise?

Phil 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Jn 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jn 10:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) I and my Father are one.

Who do we put first, the words of Christ or the words of man?

1 Tim 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

God bless you!

Firstfruits

reformedct
Jan 20th 2009, 07:57 PM
Jesus is equally God, he is second in authority in the Godhead(Trinity)

All authority was GIVEN to Jesus by the Father

The Father is first in authority.

All whom the Father give to me will come to Me.

I have kept all that YOU have given Me, they were YOURS

Walstib
Jan 20th 2009, 07:59 PM
Phil 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6), Jn 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18), Jn 10:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30), Tim 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3)

Those are some good ones that state otherwise. ;)

Firstfruits
Jan 20th 2009, 08:21 PM
Those are some good ones that state otherwise. ;)

That is why when we read we need to know who is speaking and what is really being said.

God bless You!

Firstfruits

rom826
Jan 20th 2009, 08:49 PM
I think John 14:28 makes it clear.



Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


I cor 15:27


For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


Jesus Christ and His father are one but there is still a hierarchy in the trinity. Jesus is second in authority and subservient to His father. He said he always does His father's will. He submits himself to the Father. He humbled himself more than anybody even unot death.

Bladers
Jan 21st 2009, 01:52 AM
Jesus Christ and His father are one but there is still a hierarchy in the trinity. Jesus is second in authority and subservient to His father. He said he always does His father's will. He submits himself to the Father. He humbled himself more than anybody even unot death.

Well I'm talking about being equal in power and glory, not in the position (because there is no position, they are One) of the God-head. But, I found this scripture that might explain it a little!
Just like the scripture says, "the Holy Spirit is God Almighty". I believe all three are equal.

Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Bladers
Jan 21st 2009, 02:11 AM
I believe,

A. Phil 2:6-8 Jesus let go of Equality, but retained his Divinity

B. I Cor 15:28 After resurrection, Jesus regained his Equality but still submitted to Father

Just because Jesus submits Himself to the Father, does not make Him less than the Father. For He and the Father is One. One's nature and equality is not dependent upon whether they submit. Jesus taught the greatest will be the servant!

Butch5
Jan 21st 2009, 03:40 AM
Is Jesus equal to the Father? and why do some say He is not while the scriptures states otherwise?

In what regard?

Julian
Jan 21st 2009, 04:15 AM
Well I'm talking about being equal in...glory, not in the position
Speaking of glory:

Here's one that might make you think about the glory of the Father - even when his Son was dead:

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Here's another about the Son and his Father's glory:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


And another:
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,


And when we confess Christ as Lord it is to the glory of the Father:
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In short - when we recognize all that God has done through the Lord Jesus Christ, even when we make Christ our Lord (for God made Jesus the Lord) we glorify the Father. Christ came not to glorify himself.


Here are some more, especially note the last one:
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

John 13:31-32 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.


Here is the verse that ties together the Glory of God and the topic of them being equal/one:
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Bladers
Jan 21st 2009, 04:44 AM
Speaking of glory

You totally missed what i said. We already know that Jesus is the Glory of God and the express image of God. But the bible also says, He has the fullness of the God-head, same power and glory as the Father.

After all your scriptures, i still honestly do not know where you stand with this?

Equal or Not?

1. Jesus pre-existed with God.

2. Jesus co-existed with God.

3. Jesus is God

3. Jesus is the express image of God.

3. Jesus has the same glory, the same nature, and the same power as the Father.

4. Jesus sits on the same throne as the Father.

5. Jesus receives the same honor as the Father.

6. Jesus has all the fullness of the Godhead.

7. Jesus and the Father are worshipped simultaneously by all of creation.

and then Phil 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

You also forgot verse 5 of John 17 which explains everything: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

So He comes down on earth, drops His glory just to regain it again after dying for the world.

Julian
Jan 21st 2009, 04:48 AM
Well I'm talking about being equal in power...not in the position
Equal in power? Decide for yourself, but keep these in mind.

Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
He sits on the right hand of the power of God (ie. he is on the right-hand man to put into action that power that originates from whom he sits by):


Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Jesus gave his 12 disciples power. But do we see where this originated from later on in Acts 10?

Yes:
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

God anointed Jesus with power and the holy spirit. Christ executes the power of God, being the head over all things to the church. God annointed him with power and he gave that very power to his disciples. What a wonderful relationship we see, and in recognizing this and going to God in the access we have through Christ - we, too, can have the power of God in our life.

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power


Christ lives by the power of God and we shall live with him by that same power:
2 Corinthians 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.


Christ, the Lamb, indeed is worthy to receive power & glory (along with all the other things listed here)
Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


Christ was given this power, and in the end he shall put it down - to the glory of God the Father:
1 Corinthians 15:24 & 28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



Here's a great section regarding God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ and the power that God showed and bestowed:
Ephesians 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us–ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Julian
Jan 21st 2009, 04:54 AM
You totally missed what i said. We already know that Jesus is the Glory of God and the express image of God. But the bible also says, He has the fullness of the God-head, same power and glory as the Father.No I didn't miss what you said. But I do know that the fulness of deity dwells in him. Please read my post again, and the next one about the power of God.

God gave him power and glory - and we glorify God in recognizing this and acting in light of it. Jesus is my Lord - and when I confess that it glorifies God the Father. I'm just trying to get you to see what those scriptures say on the topic.



After all your scriptures, i still honestly do not know where you stand with this?
Ok, but they aren't my scriptures.

I can't tell if that's a list of questions that you are wanting answered or not. Either way - reading those verses gives light about us doing what Christ told us to do and it glorifying his Father. God gave Christ the glory that he has and he has given it to us. I don't see how they could be equal in glory if the Father actually gave glory to the Son. Maybe it's just me though.

Bladers
Jan 21st 2009, 01:07 PM
I can't tell if that's a list of questions that you are wanting answered or not. Either way - reading those verses gives light about us doing what Christ told us to do and it glorifying his Father. God gave Christ the glory that he has and he has given it to us. I don't see how they could be equal in glory if the Father actually gave glory to the Son. Maybe it's just me though.


When i return, i will share you with you how the scriptures you posted did not disagree with what i said. Which is, He has the same power and glory of the Father. For the Son came from the Father, and the Holy Spirit came from the Father.

Your scriptures are all talking about Jesus being anointed while on earth, Ofcourse when Jesus came on earth. He did not come as God, but as a servant as a man. So He had to be anointed like any of us.

But you keep missing the part that Jesus existed before the world, with All power, and All glory.

Veretax
Jan 21st 2009, 03:58 PM
I like this verse segment:

Php 2:5-10 (NKJV)



5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and t (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Interesting that he did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, and yet made Himself of no reputation coming into the form of man humbled and obedient unto death, thus so Go dexalted his name above every name.


Seems pretty clear to me.

Julian
Jan 21st 2009, 09:12 PM
Your scriptures are all talking about Jesus being anointed while on earth, Of course when Jesus came on earth. He did not come as God, but as a servant as a man. So He had to be anointed like any of us.
Again, they are not 'my' scriptures. They are the truth of God's word. They also are not all talking about Jesus being anointed while on earth. Please read them all and see for yourself. I think you are not considering them all and overlook the ones that don't even talk about him being anointed while on earth. Perhaps this could be more of a bible chat than someone saying 'your scriptures' vs. 'my sayings'???



But you keep missing the part that Jesus existed before the world, with All power, and All glory.Bladers - I believe that he is the logos, but I'm not talking about that aspect.

Who gave him the glory he has?
And is he going to put down that glory in the end?

My two recent posts show what God has to say about 'glory' and 'power' in light of his Son. They are not only dealing with his ministry while on earth, anyone can read that. I don't wish to continue this discussion in this manner - as it is approaching a striving about words instead of gleaning the truth from each of those scriptures. I was hoping that you could just read them and get blessed and focus on the wonderful revelation that God gave us concerning his Son and him having the glory and power of God - even to this day in heaven. But we all should be looking forward to the day when "he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power...that God may be all in all."


Good day and God bless you Bladers - in the name of our glorious, wonderful and powerful Lord - Jesus Christ!

Bladers
Jan 21st 2009, 11:15 PM
Again, they are not 'my' scriptures. They are the truth of God's word.

I want to refer you to the scriptures that others posted at the beginning. Also when i say your scriptures, i meant the scriptures you posted. Ofcourse you already knew that, i dont know why you even bring that discussion up?

Bladers
Jan 21st 2009, 11:36 PM
I am responding to what you posted:



Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God

Guess What? The scriptures tells us God is Power, and it also tells us that Jesus has the fullness of God; including all power and glory. God and Jesus share the same glory and power.

Matt 28:18 - "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in HEAVEN and in earth."

All Power, not some Power. Not 99%, but 100%.


Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

As you may know, this is scripture deals out of the topic. It deals with the anointing that came upon the life of Jesus on earth.



1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power

Philippians tells us that he came into the world in the form of a servant, in the form of a regular man.

We know that Jesus depended on the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost(GOD) while on earth. He could not do nothing but through the Holy Ghost He did everything. Born through the Holy Ghost, Healed through the Holy Ghost, Died through the Holy Ghost, Raised through the Holy Ghost, Gave commandments and gifts unto men through the Holy Ghost.




Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

This still does not state His less in power and glory with the Father, For all thing that the Father has is his. Before the world was and even after the cross. (John 17:5 - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.)


Jesus = GOD the Father
Jesus = GOD the Holy Spirit of GOD
Holy Spirit = GOD the Father & GOD the Son

All = One

Same Power!, Same Glory!, Same Unity!

shawn_2828
Feb 10th 2009, 02:59 AM
Is Jesus equal to the Father? and why do some say He is not while the scriptures states otherwise?

Yes, Jesus is equal to the Father, and the Holy Spirit. I think that some people have listened to the devils lies about Jesus. Who else would not believe that Jesus is not equal to the Father, when the scriptures clearly states it.

Only satan refuse to believe scripture. But satan knows scriptures, but he twist the scripture and people just believe him.

Bliz
Feb 10th 2009, 04:00 AM
Although there is a functional hierarchy within the Godhead, it my no means infers that Jesus is lesser than the Father. Jehovah's Witnesses often allude to Jesus being less than the Father. All of the attributes of God are attributed fully to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit within the full context of Scripture. In much the same way, God has also established a functional hierarchy within the context of Christian Marriage. This by no means implies that men are greater than women. This is especially true in light of the fact that the Scriptures clearly state otherwise.

With regard to glory and power, I would point you towards Collosians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (KJV)

Much more can be said regarding your question, but this should suffice for now.

That was a great leading question Bladers!
Keep your sword sharp!

Blessings to you!


Bliz
Carpe Logos!

SIG
Feb 10th 2009, 04:25 AM
Just read through the thread and was about to post exactly what Biiz did...

Yes--consider husband, wife, and child:

Conditionally they are equal in God's eyes as candidates for His grace and salvation. Positionally they are part of a God-ordained hierarchy.