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Partaker of Christ
Jan 21st 2009, 01:21 AM
The Dragon:

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

The four beasts:

The first beast, a winged lion, has one head.
The second beast, a bear, has one head.
The third beast, a leopard, has FOUR heads.
The forth beast, a dragon-ish monster, has one head.

Basic math. 1 + 1 + 4 + 1 = 7 heads

The fourth beast, had ten horns.

I believe these four beasts are the dragon, and the beast (son of perdition) is the little horn that arises out of the fourth beast.

The Beast:

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The difference between the dragon (Satan), and this beast (son of perdition) The dragon has seven crowns, on seven heads. The beast has ten crowns, on ten horns.

The beast (not antichrist, but son of perdition) also has the name of blasphemy on his heads.
I think 'the name' of blasphemy, is 'I am god'. Blasphemy can be a claiming to be someone you are not. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, was to claim the He was Beelzebub.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mark 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

DurbanDude
Jan 21st 2009, 07:05 AM
The Dragon:

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

The four beasts:

The first beast, a winged lion, has one head.
The second beast, a bear, has one head.
The third beast, a leopard, has FOUR heads.
The forth beast, a dragon-ish monster, has one head.

Basic math. 1 + 1 + 4 + 1 = 7 heads

.

Rev 17 says of the seven heads : five were and one is, and one is to come. How would that fit into these 7 heads?

Also the fourth beast has 7 heads. The wording does not even imply that this beast has a "main" head, and then seven others. It simply has seven heads, not one head as you are saying. In other words the math goes like this:
The first beast, a winged lion, has one head.
The second beast, a bear, has one head.
The third beast, a leopard, has FOUR heads.
The forth beast, a dragon-ish monster, has seven heads

Total is 13 heads, I don't think this total is significant, especially since the four heads of the third beast are simultaneous, yet the seven heads of the fourth beast appear to be consecutive.

IamBill
Jan 21st 2009, 04:36 PM
Daniel states the forth as having one head with ten horns IN it's head. ...see 7:19-20

:hmm: and I cannot find that "dragon-ish" description anywhere in Dan.

anyways.. yes I agree that forth beast was the roman empire, and that -what is depicted in Rev. is All 4 of them(dan's 4) combined.
Also, nowhere I've seen in Rev. is any implying that the ten horns are divided among the seven heads ...they are likely all on the one representing rome.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 21st 2009, 07:30 PM
Rev 17 says of the seven heads : five were and one is, and one is to come. How would that fit into these 7 heads?

Also the fourth beast has 7 heads. The wording does not even imply that this beast has a "main" head, and then seven others. It simply has seven heads, not one head as you are saying. In other words the math goes like this:
The first beast, a winged lion, has one head.
The second beast, a bear, has one head.
The third beast, a leopard, has FOUR heads.
The forth beast, a dragon-ish monster, has seven heads

Total is 13 heads, I don't think this total is significant, especially since the four heads of the third beast are simultaneous, yet the seven heads of the fourth beast appear to be consecutive.

Hi Durban Dude!

Were does it show the fourth beast as having seven heads?

I am still very new to this type of study, so if you see something that I am missing then, I welcome the help.

IMHO, The beast in Rev 17, is not the same as the four beasts in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7 (four beasts) are the Dragon (Satan) same as Rev 12:

The Dragon (Dan 7, Rev 12) gives power to the beast (little horn, son of predition) Rev 17

Partaker of Christ
Jan 21st 2009, 07:40 PM
Daniel states the forth as having one head with ten horns IN it's head. ...see 7:19-20

:hmm: and I cannot find that "dragon-ish" description anywhere in Dan.

anyways.. yes I agree that forth beast was the roman empire, and that -what is depicted in Rev. is All 4 of them(dan's 4) combined.
Also, nowhere I've seen in Rev. is any implying that the ten horns are divided among the seven heads ...they are likely all on the one representing rome.

Hi IamBill!

Yes the ten horns are in the head of the fourth beast. I don't think I implied other?

Dragon-ish was just my expression, based on the described behaviour, but also that I believe 'the four' are the Dragon (Satan)

The fourth being Rome, and having ten horns. The little horn (the beast, son of perdition) rises up from among the ten horns.

ZDOxcar
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:53 AM
I think the four beast in Dan 7 are probably the Beast out of the Sea from Rev 13, due to the lion, bear, leopard descriptions in Dan 7 and that of the Beast out of the Sea in Rev 13.

The Beast out of the Sea has 7 heads and 10 horns, and so do the four beasts from Dan 7. I think the critical argument one must make is "IF you believe the Beast out of the Sea IS/ARE the four beasts from Dan 7, how does one explain Rev 17, i.e. 5 have fallen, one is, and one is to come".

I think Dan 7 is an overview of the end times, and that Dan 8,9,10,11,12 provide the details to Dan 7. In Dan 8 we are possibly given details to two of the four beasts described in Dan 7. They are the Ram, or Medes-Persia, and the Goat, or Greece. Here I believe the Goat is the "leopard" beast, i.e. the one with four heads. The Greek Empire was divided into four kingdoms, the Kingdoms of Ptolemy, Seleucid, Caseander, and Lyalmachu. So this explains the "four heads" of the leopard beast.

The Ram and the Goat account for five heads, and they have all come and gone, as Rev 17 describes. From Dan 7 we have two more beasts, including the beast with 10 horns. These two beasts, plus the Ram and the Goat, form the seven heads of the Beast out of the Sea.

So, one must now argue "Which of the seven heads still is? Which one is to come?"

Nobody can even speculate on the question "which one is to come" since only The Father knows this, and He has not revealed the identity of this Kingdom. BUT we can conclude that this Kingdom that is to come accounts for one head.

So, what about the Kingdom that is? I speculate this is Babylon. We know Babylon exists during the GT, and its destruction (along with the Great Prostitute) is effectively the end of the GT. We know Babylon did exists during the writing of Daniel (around 530BC) and so it is a Kingdom that IS in existence thru-out.

IamBill
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:03 AM
Hi IamBill!

Yes the ten horns are in the head of the fourth beast. I don't think I implied other?

Dragon-ish was just my expression, based on the described behaviour, but also that I believe 'the four' are the Dragon (Satan)

:) Heyya !
No, that was in regard to D Dude


The fourth being Rome, and having ten horns. The little horn (the beast, son of perdition) rises up from among the ten horns.
This is from Rev. though right, ....in Daniel's 4th there is a count of 11 kings total -
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Here is a little info on the "deified" Emperors - http://www.roman-empire.net/emperors/emp-index.html

DurbanDude
Jan 22nd 2009, 06:16 AM
Hi Durban Dude!

Were does it show the fourth beast as having seven heads?

I am still very new to this type of study, so if you see something that I am missing then, I welcome the help.

IMHO, The beast in Rev 17, is not the same as the four beasts in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7 (four beasts) are the Dragon (Satan) same as Rev 12:

The Dragon (Dan 7, Rev 12) gives power to the beast (little horn, son of predition) Rev 17

Sorry, its me that's missing something here. You are right, the two beasts are different and I was mixing them up. I do believe they are two different views of the same empire, but agree that the little horn of the fourth beast of Daniel relates to the beast of Revelation 17. The dragon is another view of the same empire, all three beasts are essentially speaking of the same period from three different perspectives.

It was the relating of the seven heads of Rev 17 to the heads of the four beasts that I essentially disagree with, mainly because Rev 17 says 5 were and one is.