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bixa525
Jan 21st 2009, 05:37 AM
Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord? If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God? I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help!

David Taylor
Jan 21st 2009, 09:12 PM
Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord?

The Pretrib rapture belief holds that all of the true Christians living on the planet will be taken up to Heaven at the Pretrib rapture; so by default, following that; only unbelievers are on the Earth. However, the Pretrib rapture belief also holds that many of those who were "left behind" will become new Christians during the tribulation.

Noone has to do anything to 'proove' themselves to the Lord. We don't do any actions or works to gain merit with God; rather we belief, trust, and follow His Son Jesus Christ, who died on the Cross; prooving His love for us that while we were yet sinners, He died for us.





If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God?

The Posttrib rapture belief holds that all Christians remain on the Earth through all of the endtime events, and that when Christ comes, it is only once from Heaven, to gather true believer and to destroy the wicked. Whether or not all of the wicked are destroyed at His return or later, is differentiated in the different Millennial views.

Again, noone here as in the Pretrib view, prooves they are a child of God by their accomplishments, but rather, by their relationship with Jesus Christ and what He alone accomplished for us.




I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help!

The best help anyone here can advise you, is to start reading God's word...and read alot of it, and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you. Don't look for quick answers, but rather pray and meditate, and compare scripture with scripture, and undertake that if you faithfully search for answers, the Lord will provide them through his words.

I would suggest as a starting place, to hold off on trying to figure out Revelation, which as a symbolic apocryphal work of literature, is very difficult to understand as a new Christian. Start out reading Matthew 13, 24-25, Mark 13, Luke 17, John 5-6, Romans 8, I Corinthians 15, I Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 1-2, 2 Peter 3, and Jude 1 first....all much smaller reads, which will give you a good intro into what the Bible itself teaches regarding most all endtime events. Once you have a fairly comfortable understanding of those passages (which are pretty straight forward to understand), then you'll have a much better foundation for beginning to study Revelation.

Also, when you begin to study Revelation, you'll find it draws from many O.T. passages like Isaiah 2, 24-26, 65-66, Daniel 2, 7, 11-12, etc...so background reading in those areas are also helpful.

The NT writings however, are the most clear and straightforward, and I would suggest those first as a starting point.

Cyberseeker
Jan 21st 2009, 10:54 PM
Good advice from Mr Taylor Bixa. :cool:

TexasBeliever
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:32 PM
Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord? If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God? I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help!
__________________________________________________ ___________
I was pretrib before I became totally convinced that the scriptures solidly are posttrib where the rapture is concerned, so I have looked at this intensely from both sides for over 20 years.
If you do an intense study of both old and new testament scriptures that deal with the return of the Lord, you will find that His coming for us is literally posttrib and that pretrib is a long string of assumptions.

Whenever ANY scripture refers to the coming of the Lord, it is ALWAYS ONE COMING which is at the end of the 42 month reign of the beast. This coming includes both the punishment of the wicked with fire on the earth and the simultaneous gathering of the righteous to save them from the Lord's wrath. The Day of the Lord's wrath in scripture, is ALWAYS described as coming at the end of the beast's reign.
The Lord is constantly warning His followers in the scriptures of the things that will happen before He comes.
The entire book of Revelation is an explicit warning of what the church will have to endure before He comes.
It opens with these words: "This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ, to tell the CHURCHES about the things which are to take place very soon."; and it closes with these words: "I Jesus, have sent My angel to make these revelations to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

It is also stated in scripture that there are only two resurrections: One is the resurrection of life and the other the resurrection unto damnation. The resurrection to life is stated to occur simultaneously with the coming of the Lord, not at any other time.

The Day of the Lord is also described as a day "when the Lord alone will be exhalted". (which could NOT be during the reign of antichrist, but AFTER it); It will also be a day of "darkness and thick clouds", not 7 years of darkness and thick clouds.

ScottJohnson
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:08 PM
__________________________________________________ ___________
I was pretrib before I became totally convinced that the scriptures solidly are posttrib where the rapture is concerned, so I have looked at this intensely from both sides for over 20 years.
If you do an intense study of both old and new testament scriptures that deal with the return of the Lord, you will find that His coming for us is literally posttrib and that pretrib is a long string of assumptions.

Whenever ANY scripture refers to the coming of the Lord, it is ALWAYS ONE COMING which is at the end of the 42 month reign of the beast. This coming includes both the punishment of the wicked with fire on the earth and the simultaneous gathering of the righteous to save them from the Lord's wrath. The Day of the Lord's wrath in scripture, is ALWAYS described as coming at the end of the beast's reign.
The Lord is constantly warning His followers in the scriptures of the things that will happen before He comes.
The entire book of Revelation is an explicit warning of what the church will have to endure before He comes.
It opens with these words: "This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ, to tell the CHURCHES about the things which are to take place very soon."; and it closes with these words: "I Jesus, have sent My angel to make these revelations to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

It is also stated in scripture that there are only two resurrections: One is the resurrection of life and the other the resurrection unto damnation. The resurrection to life is stated to occur simultaneously with the coming of the Lord, not at any other time.

Hello TexasBeliever, or maybe I should say howdy?

I just have to challenge your statement above concerning the "day of the Lord". The phrase "the day of the Lord" does not automatically speak of events leading up to Christ's return. Here are a few examples where "day of the Lord" speaks of God's judgment against others through out history.

Jer 46:10
(10) For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

This passage speaks of an attack on Egypt by Babylon.

Isa 13:6
(6) Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

In this passage "day of the Lord" speaks of an attack on Babylon by the Medes.

Isa 34:8
(8) For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

This verse, in spite of the horrific language leading up to it, depicts God's vengeance being carried out on Edom.

Lam 1:12
(12) Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.

Worded differently but still speaks of the same thing. Jeremiah laments the desolation of Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon.

Lam 2:22
(22) Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

Again, this is another reference to down of Jerusalem by Babylon

Eze 7:19
(19) They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

This passage speaks of the utter desolation of Israel, the Northern Kingdom.

Eze 30:3
(3) For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Speaking of the ruin of Egypt and her allies at that hands of Nebuchadnezzar


Amo 5:20
(20) Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

The "day of the Lord" which Amos speaks of hear pertains to the desolation of Israel by the Assyrians.

Oba 1:15
(15) For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

This appears to be a prophecy against Edom

TexasBeliever
Jan 22nd 2009, 06:58 PM
I didn't say it was. The Lord's wrath comes when HE comes. The events prior to this affect anyone who gets caught in them, (therefore they are not the wrath of the Lord) except the things that only effect those who accept the mark of the beast specifically. (sores and scorpian-like stings)

The Lord specifically comes "to destroy those who destroy the earth", which includes those who are murdering the faithful, and at this time He seperates the wheat from the tares.

ScottJohnson
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:50 AM
I didn't say it was. The Lord's wrath comes when HE comes. The events prior to this affect anyone who gets caught in them, (therefore they are not the wrath of the Lord) except the things that only effect those who accept the mark of the beast specifically. (sores and scorpian-like stings)

The Lord specifically comes "to destroy those who destroy the earth", which includes those who are murdering the faithful, and at this time He seperates the wheat from the tares.
Sorry Bud, when you said...

"The Day of the Lord's wrath in scripture, is ALWAYS described as coming at the end of the beast's reign."

I guess that I associated the phrase "The Day of the Lord's wrath" with "the day of the Lord".

In spite of my error, I'm afraid that from what I've found, the phrase "the day of the Lord's wrath", is mentioned only once in the KJV, in Zep 1:18, and it speaks of the coming of God's wrath against Judah when God sent the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem and take the survivor into exile.

Bumblebee Tuna
Jan 23rd 2009, 11:54 PM
To get a good in-depth understanding of the end-times, I recommend reading pastor John Macarthurs two book commentary on Revelation.

yaza
Jan 24th 2009, 12:35 AM
__________________________________________________ ___________
I was pretrib before I became totally convinced that the scriptures solidly are posttrib where the rapture is concerned, so I have looked at this intensely from both sides for over 20 years.
If you do an intense study of both old and new testament scriptures that deal with the return of the Lord, you will find that His coming for us is literally posttrib and that pretrib is a long string of assumptions.

Whenever ANY scripture refers to the coming of the Lord, it is ALWAYS ONE COMING which is at the end of the 42 month reign of the beast. This coming includes both the punishment of the wicked with fire on the earth and the simultaneous gathering of the righteous to save them from the Lord's wrath. The Day of the Lord's wrath in scripture, is ALWAYS described as coming at the end of the beast's reign.
The Lord is constantly warning His followers in the scriptures of the things that will happen before He comes.
The entire book of Revelation is an explicit warning of what the church will have to endure before He comes.
It opens with these words: "This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ, to tell the CHURCHES about the things which are to take place very soon."; and it closes with these words: "I Jesus, have sent My angel to make these revelations to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

It is also stated in scripture that there are only two resurrections: One is the resurrection of life and the other the resurrection unto damnation. The resurrection to life is stated to occur simultaneously with the coming of the Lord, not at any other time.

The Day of the Lord is also described as a day "when the Lord alone will be exhalted". (which could NOT be during the reign of antichrist, but AFTER it); It will also be a day of "darkness and thick clouds", not 7 years of darkness and thick clouds.
yes, to what he said!

yaza
Jan 24th 2009, 12:44 AM
To get a good in-depth understanding of the end-times, I recommend reading pastor John Macarthurs two book commentary on Revelation.
please dont! read daniel,isaiah,1thes,2thes,1cor,2cor and rev then you will have an understanding of end times. this is the only way, read these books over and over. love yaza

Adarian
Jan 24th 2009, 09:22 AM
Hi bixa,
for a brief intro to the timing of the rapture, see first: Revelation chapter 20, vs 1-6, which describes those who were killed for refusing to worship the beast and his image, who also take part in the first resurrection.

Then go to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 which reveals inarguably that the first resurrection occurs immediately prior to the church being gathered to Christ.

Only a very few will survive to see the rapture. The Lord gave His life for us, we cannot be expected to do less for Him if we come to be faced with that choice.

bixa525
Jan 28th 2009, 11:57 AM
So if there is no pre rapture what does one do once the tribulation starts? Do we run for the hills or just stay where you are and die from starvation or another means? I don't understand why God would make us suffer when Jesus already suffered and paid the price for our sins. Can someone explain this to me? Thank you

yaza
Jan 28th 2009, 12:27 PM
So if there is no pre rapture what does one do once the tribulation starts? Do we run for the hills or just stay where you are and die from starvation or another means? I don't understand why God would make us suffer when Jesus already suffered and paid the price for our sins. Can someone explain this to me? Thank you
remember that satan is given power over the saints for 42 mos. {rev. 13 } and we are to endure to the end, i think we just need to maintian our faith until we die or jesus comes back. psalm 91 is the answer to your question. also why would god wait until the great trib. to save people when they were chosen before the foundation of the world? yaza

IBWatching
Jan 28th 2009, 08:51 PM
...The Lord's wrath comes when HE comes...

I'm waiting for an endtimes viewpoint which considers the Wrath of Khan. We've got just about everything else already.


Psalms 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."...5 The Lord is at Your right hand; He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath. 6 He will judge among the nations, He will fill {them} with corpses, He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.

All this happens while He is still at the Father's Right Hand. No where in the context has He returned to the earth. In fact, He can't until all His enemies are subdued. Unless, of course, one believes He disobeys the Father. Not Likely.

Emanate
Jan 28th 2009, 09:29 PM
Noone has to do anything to 'proove' themselves to the Lord. We don't do any actions or works to gain merit with God; rather we belief, trust, and follow His Son Jesus Christ, who died on the Cross; prooving His love for us that while we were yet sinners, He died for us.


It was my understanding that one of the tenets of dispensationalism is that when the church leaves, so does Grace, thus the desire to rebuild the temple.

Emanate
Jan 28th 2009, 09:30 PM
I'm waiting for an endtimes viewpoint which considers the Wrath of Khan. We've got just about everything else already.



I did hear the other day that they have the Genesis Device in play. :rofl:

Truthinlove
Jan 29th 2009, 02:24 AM
I don't understand why God would make us suffer when Jesus already suffered and paid the price for our sins.

I don't understand that mentality at all.

What do you think of all the Christians WORLDWIDE being tortured and killed daily simply for their faith? They suffer.

Look how the disciples suffered and they actually lived and walked with Jesus.

Why would we modern day American Christians be any different?

I don't have time to type out all these verses for you, but PLEASE look them up.

1 Peter 1:6b-7
1 Peter 2:19-23
1 Peter 3:14
1 Peter 4:12-13
1 Peter 4:16-17
Matt. 24:29
John 15:18-21

2 Tim. 3:12 "Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."

bixa525
Jan 29th 2009, 08:16 PM
Truth in Love, I understand that many people are killed for their faith worldwide and the disciples also were killed for their faith. I am trying to understand though why this is so. I am simply asking a question because I honestly don't understand why God would do this when Jesus took our pain on the cross. Is the reason for this because we have to prove we are true believers? I am a new Christian so please be patient with me while I am trying to learn and understand.

quiet dove
Jan 29th 2009, 11:53 PM
Truth in Love, I understand that many people are killed for their faith worldwide and the disciples also were killed for their faith. I am trying to understand though why this is so. I am simply asking a question because I honestly don't understand why God would do this when Jesus took our pain on the cross. Is the reason for this because we have to prove we are true believers? I am a new Christian so please be patient with me while I am trying to learn and understand.

bixa,

Jesus suffered the judgment of God that we deserved, I know you know that. What believers suffer is persecution for their faith, and that is not suffering God's judgment. The only place of comparison would be that Jesus was obedient to death, hopefully as believers, we would also be obedient unto death, however, obedient unto death is not just a physical issue of the body dieing, should we not be dead to the flesh (even if we are still physically alive)? Should we not be obedient to death, the death to ourselves and also if called to, physically being killed?

Suffereing persecution at the hands of Satan/unbelievers, and suffering God's wrath is two entirely different issues.

Jesus was obedient, suffering (God's judgment)unto death for us and we are/should be, obedient unto death (Satan's persecution) for Him. He suffered God's judgment, we will not.

Christian persecution does not equal God's judgment.

Truthinlove
Jan 30th 2009, 12:59 PM
Truth in Love, I understand that many people are killed for their faith worldwide and the disciples also were killed for their faith. I am trying to understand though why this is so. I am simply asking a question because I honestly don't understand why God would do this when Jesus took our pain on the cross. Is the reason for this because we have to prove we are true believers? I am a new Christian so please be patient with me while I am trying to learn and understand.

Hi Bixa,
I do apologize. I didn't have much time to post. I love that you are eager to learn and understand.
Of course I will be patient with you.

Did you read all the verses I posted? If not, please do. I believe they will give you insight in regards to your question.

I'd just like to encourage you as a new believer to try to seek what God wants us to learn from a situation rather than understanding "why" is it happening to me or "why" does God allow something to happen. Sometimes we know why, but a LOT of times we don't and we won't. Or we won't know until after going through something then we can look back and understand the purpose. Too many people get caught up in "why's" of life and it can hinder growth.
When we don't understand why something happens that is when we need to completely trust in God. He knows, He won't give us more than we can endure, His purpose is to conform us to His image and that is all that matters. :)

Blessings to you

wombat
Jan 31st 2009, 06:21 AM
Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord? If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God? I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help! Hi, Bixa525! As you can see, yes, we have many different opinions indeed about when the rapture occurs. I think God might have allowed for a little mystery here just so that every generation could be kept on its toes, so to speak--ready and watching and hoping for His soon return, but also wondering and studying and trying to discern when the time really would come. I don't think there's anything wrong with a good debate about pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, because no matter our opinion about the timing, our heart is for His returning. We love Jesus, and we can still be brothers and sisters in Him and we can love each other even though we squabble about little things like the timing of the rapture (some of us squabble more than others, by the way :lol:). But I know that it can be very confusing to try to listen to it all -- or to read it all--particularly for someone who is new to faith in Jesus or who has never before studied things about the end times.

My advice would be to read the Bible--from Genesis all the way to Revelation--and let His Word speak to you. Pray and ask the Lord to help answer your questions. I can tell you from experience that He loves it when His children ask Him questions, for He has always listened to my questions and provided answers in awesomely personal and mind-blowing ways.

And then my last advice would be to not let yourself be troubled about whether the rapture will occur before or after the tribulation. Study it, yes, but don't let it trouble you. If it happens before, it will be our great joy to escape the horrors of the earth and to be with our Lord forever as we prepare to reign with Him in His Kingdom. But if we end up facing part or all of the tribulation period, we can be confident that He will be with us through all the trials. He promised us His peace, His love, His wisdom, His mercy, and He promised to never let us be tempted beyond what we can bear. He knows our breaking points because He knows us completely. His Spirit will comfort us through anything we must endure. And our hope will be in the future, because we know any suffering we face is for only a short time.

Jude
Feb 20th 2009, 03:01 AM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/pray_persecuted_church.jpg


John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Verse 15 speaks to the rapture we are in this thing until the end.

Jude


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/globe8.gif

Brian Lloyd
Feb 21st 2009, 01:52 PM
Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord? If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God? I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help!

THE RAPTURE:


Revelation Chapter 8


V.1 And when He opened the (a)7th seal, there came to be (b)silence in the heaven about half an hour.
(a) The first 6 seals were opened in quick succession with brief descriptions. The descriptions fit what our Lord said to His disciples in Matt. 24, and parallel passages. In V.8 of Matt. 24 the Lord shows that the various calamities must happen as a prelude, and in V.9 that world wide Jewry would be persecuted. This of course has happened many times, but never so badly as the second world war of 1939-1945, which was an accelerating impetus (together with the 1st world war, which forced Turkey to relinquish Palestine in war reparation,) to the formation of the present state of Israel, and clearly is significant. In the 39-45 war, the "Final Solution," was proposed by Hitler to exterminate all Jews, which had he won would have been a world wide effort. As it is, he killed more than 6 million in Europe. There is however worse to come. In Chp. 6:4, "the peace is taken from the earth," which in the case of Israel had been established by agreement with the State of Israel and the Antichrist previously, (Dan. 9:27;) but in the case of other nations, will also probably be with the help of Antichrist. The world's Christendom leaders have been, and are, teaching that it is the Christian's duty to work for peace in the world so that the world will be a fitting place for Christ to return to. “This is known as the Ecumenical Movement!” This of course ignores what Scripture says will be the case, but this teaching will make Antichrist totally acceptable to the gullible, as he will agree with and endorse and enable such teaching.

Since the mid A.D. 1800s knowledge has accelerated, technology increased, with the consequent huge expansion of war, travel, communication etc., (Dan. 12:4.) This expansion coincides with an event in 1858 of the publication of Charles Darwin's "Origin of Species," which led to conflict between theologians and scientists, called "The great debate." In the event the scientists won that debate, and the power (albeit corrupted) of the church declined. Although there have been attempts to renew Bible teaching through various groupings, the influences of alternative activities and interests holds sway in the present day, and what Bible teaching there is, is corrupted in the main. The exhortations of the Apostle Paul "to know and work at Scripture," (paraphrased,) in the present time is not accepted. Rather, the case is that of 2 Tim. 3:1, "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come." These verses from 1 to 5 certainly describe very accurately the present day developing conditions on earth.

The foregoing is laid out in support of the timing possibility of a special event which must yet take place. Since the Lord's death on the Calvary cross, and at the moment in time that He gave up voluntarily His spirit of life to the Father (Matt. 27:50) and the Veil of the Temple was rent from top to bottom, a special condition has prevailed on earth. The ripping of the Veil, which barred the way into the Holy of Holies in the Jewish Temple, signified that access to the presence of Jehovah was no longer barred, and that Christ's death as substitute sacrifice was acceptable to the Father for men and women of right heart (good will.) This means (and the condition is still in place) that as the Apostle Paul and others describe, "faith (Trust) in Christ's sacrifice and in Him only is all that is required for Salvation (to be made whole before God,)" (paraphrased.) As well as this gift of Salvation, this grouping of people have a special destination and purpose, which will start with a special event, called the "Translation," or "Rapture," (1 Cor. 15:51.) This taking away from earth has to take place prior to the "Wrath of God on earth," (1 Thess. 1:10) (1 Thess. 5:9) to be visited on rebellious mankind, and partly simultaneous with that wrath will be the worst tribulation visited on the Jews by the "Prince of this world," that has yet ever taken place, (Matt. 24:21-22.)

(b) The "silence;" in heaven, augers a prelude, an anticipation, prior to special and/ or main events. The fact that half an hour is mentioned must have a meaning. The Interlinear no.2256 confirms the text. Part of the root 2255 gives the idea of "partition," with the possible idea of a time space before the next and culminating events of the Wrath of Jehovah God! An idea on the timing, when considering 2Peter 3:8 could be 1000 divided by 48(24x2) = 21 years approx. or as stated, literally half an hour. The descriptions of what are released in the following verses and chapters are indeed terrible. The release of the 7th seal is also the last one for the Lamb of God. The Lamb is also Christ Jesus, and when He has released the 7th seal, He is free to continue the plan of Jehovah God. It is determined in the plan of God that Christ will descend from the right hand of the Father, "when His enemies are made His footstool," (paraphrased,) (Matt. 22:44,) (Mk. 12:36,) (Lk. 20:43,) (Acts 2:35,) (Heb. 1:13,)(Heb. 10:13,) (Psm. 110:1.) The timing of the Rapture of Christians (1 Cor. 15:51,) (Christ's Body) has been the subject of much debate and speculation. Some say prior to the "70th week" of Daniel's prophecy, others at the same time as the saving of the "remnant," of Jews, and many other ideas abound. However, one overriding comment repeatedly seems to give the main clue, (Rom. 5:9) which speak of exclusion from "wrath," in fact wrath is reserved for those that "hold down," or suppress the Truth (Rom. 1:18.) The most convincing and probably conclusive is 1 Thess. 1:10 and 5:9, which shows not only exclusion from wrath, but also uses the word "rescued," from the wrath to come. As Christ in verse one has just been released from His seal releasing duties, and as the 7th seal (the last) is also the one that releases the wrath of God on humankind, the "silence," or pause is opportune for Him to collect His Body, (1 Thess. 4:13-17) and (1 Cor. 15:51,52,) which is one of the main views. However, at present (Feb. 2001) the writer holds to the view that it will be prior to the start of the events of Revelation one, which would place it approx. halfway through the “70th” week.”

After that wondrous event, whatever its timing, there is time alone for the Body (True Church) with the Lord, which is a refining and reward time for individual Christians, who are now in a different body or state (Rom. 14:10,) (1 Cor. 3:10-15,) (2 Cor. 5:10,) but we are then with the Lord for ever (ALWAYS) (1Thess. 4:17.) The "ALWAYS," here in the Greek, has the flavour of not just time but also at His side, (or in His presence.)

The Lord must then arrive on earth the second time (called the 2nd Advent,) to rescue the remnant of His people Israel, (in their flesh,) to subdue and defeat by force the nations ranged against them, to Judge the nations, and to set up and preside in the Millennial reign. As we are told by Paul that we (true Christ-ones) are "ever," with the Lord, it is the opinion of the writer that we arrive on earth with Christ (1Thess. 3:13), (Jude 14.)
Brian Lloyd.

third hero
Feb 21st 2009, 04:01 PM
Truth in Love, I understand that many people are killed for their faith worldwide and the disciples also were killed for their faith. I am trying to understand though why this is so. I am simply asking a question because I honestly don't understand why God would do this when Jesus took our pain on the cross. Is the reason for this because we have to prove we are true believers? I am a new Christian so please be patient with me while I am trying to learn and understand.

Bixa,
First, I would like to commend you for asking these truly difficult questions.

You have asked two questions here, and I would like to try to answer the them both.

Why would people have to suffer if the Lord is coming after the Great tribulation? (I hope I got that one right). The answer is unfair, and simple. As of right now, satan rules this world as it's god.

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. -2Corinthians 4:4

But wait, isn't God the God of this world? Yes. However, when God created Adam and Eve, He wanted them to rule over this world, and their authority to be under God's authority. In other words, Adam and Eve were rulers of this planet, given their authority by God Himself. When Adam and Eve betrayed God, they had given their authority over to Satan, who has used it ever since to propagate his rebellion against God. The kingdoms of this world, the nations of men, since they are influenced by the evil one, are controlled by him. This makes him the "god" of this world. God still rules this planet, but satan is using the authority that God gave humans to rule over them.

The Lord's plan is to take that authority away from Satan, which he will completely do so at His glorious return. According to Revelation 19-20, the Lord will return, attack the armies of the world, defeat them, and assign Satan to a prison, sealing him away from the earth for a set period of time... (that is if you believe in the post-trib, premillennialism viewpoint).

Satan, understandably, does not want this to happen. However, it is going to happen, and a series of events are going to happen that will trigger the Lord's return. Satan, when the one sign that directly affects him happens, he will kick his rebellion into high gear, and will cause all who are under him to rebel directly against God. This is what we call the period of the Great Tribulation.

You see, the reason why Christians in particular will have to suffer during that time is because Satan knows that he will lose everything in a few short years, and at that point, he wants to destroy any and every reminder of God on earth, and that would be us, the believers.

Now for the question in quotes.

We do not have to prove anything. By our confessions and steady adherance to the Gospel, we are proven by God to be His people. The reason why the disciples had to die was because of their obedience to Him. Remember my first answer, the fact that Satan is the ruler of this world. He does not want anyone to usurp or even remind him that he is under the authority of God himself. Even though he had used deception to gain that authority, he still has to abide by the conditions that Adam and Eve were originally suppose to be under. Satan does not want anyone who was under his control to be freed, because the more people who are freed from his control, the weaker his kingdom becomes.

You see, Satan's kingdom is directly tied to men. He can not control anything or rule anything on this earth. The weather is NOT under his control. The land is not under his control. Neither are the seas, the stars, or the sun. Only the people who have not believed in God are the ones that Satan can control. That means that the leaders of nations, including the USA, are under the control of Satan. This is why Satan tempted Lord Jesus with the kingdoms of the world, because this is the only thing he does have control over.

So, being afraid that his entire kingdom would crumble without the Lord's return being necessary, Satan had decided to kill off any and all who represent the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

But remember this, Satan can do nothing without God. He can not kill anyone without God allowing it to happen. ANd so the question that follows the one that you asked is: "Why does God allow Satan to do what he does?" The answer is this. God is letting Satan hang himself, so when He finally judges him, God will have all of the evidence He needs to cast that rebellious angel into the Lake.

Now understand this. When you have given yourself to Lord Jesus, you were freed from the kingdom of sin and death. By virtue of the Lord's sacrifice, He has freed you from Satan and his influence. Because of His sacrifice, you are NOW able to follow God and His commandments. Satan hates this, but he can only do so much. God will not allow Satan to just attack you and kill you off. God will protect you, both in times of peace, and in times of war. When the saints are attacked by Satan, we will be protected, and if there comes a point when we are faced to choose whether to continue to follow God or betray Him, He will guide us, and cause us to make the right decision.

And so, according to what I believe, I have answered your questions. My point of view is not the only one, and just because I have written what I have written, that does not mean that you have to simply accept it. I refer back to David Taylor's response to you in post #2. You have to read the Bible, and come to your own conclusions. The road to knowledge is not easy, but the end results are worth the effort. Everything that I have typed here I can prove with scripture, but the point of me writing this is not so that you can believe what I believe. As a new believer, it is imperative of you to read the Bible and pray a LOT! You must learn to listen to the Holy Spirit, and learn to be guided by Him. The only way for that to happen is for you to find the answers for yourself, by reading ans asking the Lord for understanding. If there are words that you do not understand, ask of Him and He will guide you to the books that will give clarity to segments of scripture. Simply believing what people here have written is not going to give you that satisfaction that you are seeking.

And so I implore you, read the Bible, pray, and forget about my post here, and everyone elses as well. Let the Holy Spirit teach you the truth, and when you do that, Bixa, you will be able to come back here, and discuss and debate the merits of what the Lord has shown you with everyone else. Who knows, you may end up disagreeing with my conclusions, or you might agree with them. You will never know until you do the research, and learn to listen to the guidence of the Holy Spirit.

Gard
Feb 21st 2009, 05:46 PM
And so I implore you, read the Bible, pray, and forget about my post here, and everyone elses as well. Let the Holy Spirit teach you the truth, and when you do that, Bixa, you will be able to come back here, and discuss and debate the merits of what the Lord has shown you with everyone else. Who knows, you may end up disagreeing with my conclusions, or you might agree with them. You will never know until you do the research, and learn to listen to the guidence of the Holy Spirit.

Bixa,

I agree with third hero's advice. I always believed in a pre-trib rapture. It wasn't until I came to this site and saw other beliefs on the subject which led to much confusion for me. I finally had to stop reading all of the posts regarding the subject and find out for myself what the Bible really says. I finally switched to the post-trib belief when I gained an understanding of the difference between God's wrath on an unbelieving world and satan's persecution of believers. Read your Bible and ask for guidence and understanding and you will find the truth.

Watchmen
Feb 21st 2009, 06:10 PM
Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord? If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God? I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help!
6 points that prove post trib rapture (scripture included)

#1 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

#2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the resurrection of the just/rapture is at the 2nd coming.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.

#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Therefore the pretrib rapture as well as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

Watchmen
Feb 21st 2009, 06:15 PM
The main to points to look at it the first 2 points. If you can prove 2 things it automatically proves the 3rd.

#1 The 2nd coming is after the Tribulation which is clear ''Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27''
#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming (which is after the Tribulation) 1st Thess 4:15-17

If these 2 point are true (which they are as the scripture declares) then the 3rd point is true by default and that 3rd truth is that the rapture itself is immediately after the tribulation.

quiet dove
Feb 21st 2009, 08:10 PM
Be careful with your words everyone

We all need to be careful here with these statements.

It goes without saying that reading all the other views will cause us to dig deeper, however, some of us, EVEN AFTER READING OUR BIBLES FOR OUR VERY SELVES, are still whatever view we are, the arguments against our held view is beneficial in that we dig deeper and deeper, the the fact is, WE READ THE BIBLE AND ASK FOR THE TRUTH.

I mean get real, anyone here read the Bible and ask for a lie?? Gimme a break!

The insinuation follows that whoever disagrees must not have read their Bible and ask for the truth. Those are the insinuations that cause trouble.

Those insinuations must not continue from any one of any view towards any others!!

Gard
Feb 21st 2009, 08:58 PM
Be careful with your words everyone

We all need to be careful here with these statements.

It goes without saying that reading all the other views will cause us to dig deeper, however, some of us, EVEN AFTER READING OUR BIBLES FOR OUR VERY SELVES, are still whatever view we are, the arguments against our held view is beneficial in that we dig deeper and deeper, the the fact is, WE READ THE BIBLE AND ASK FOR THE TRUTH.

I mean get real, anyone here read the Bible and ask for a lie?? Gimme a break!

The insinuation follows that whoever disagrees must not have read their Bible and ask for the truth. Those are the insinuations that cause trouble.

Those insinuations must not continue from any one of any view towards any others!!


I don't believe that any insinuations have been made anywhere in this thread. All I see are attempts to illustrate that reading the Word prayerfully rather than blindly accepting the beliefs of fallible man is the best way to find the truth on any doctrinal question. And as a post-trib adherent, I cannot help but express myself from that point of view. However, it is obvious that there is still a great deal tension between the two view points so in order to keep the peace, I will refrain from posting on the subject of the Rapture from this point on.

quiet dove
Feb 21st 2009, 09:09 PM
I don't believe that any insinuations have been made anywhere in this thread. All I see are attempts to illustrate that reading the Word prayerfully rather than blindly accepting the beliefs of fallible man is the best way to find the truth on any doctrinal question. And as a post-trib adherent, I cannot help but express myself from that point of view. However, it is obvious that there is still a great deal tension between the two view points so in order to keep the peace, I will refrain from posting on the subject of the Rapture from this point on.

I don't believe any intentional insinuations were made or insults, however, when you say
"All I see are attempts to illustrate that reading the Word prayerfully rather than blindly accepting the beliefs of fallible man is the best way to find the truth on any doctrinal question."

While that statement in and of itself is very true, if after having stated a previous views and then in the context of proclaiming your new view, insinuation is by default happening.

All I am doing is asking that everyone please be careful, thats all. It is not a discussable request, it was made officially as a mod in as nice a way as I could, so, everyone, please be careful. I can drag up and quote other post here, but I simple do not have time, so just asking that we all be careful how our statements come across within the context of our thoughts. Nothing personal to you or any one person.

Catamaran29
Feb 21st 2009, 10:12 PM
THere was this 4 year old kid who wanted to play football with his dad. So we made him a running back and on the first play, he got clobbered. Boy, you should have seen him -- Bruised, bloodied, and then the wimp didn't want to play anymore. Go figure.

Paul told the Corinthians that, he would have fed them with more substantial stuff, but they were not ready. So why would any of us force steak down a babes gullet. What I've witnessed is a demonstration self engrandizing intellectual one-upsmanship with no regard to consequences.

I,m sure we have eased this young Christian's confusion -- not.

I'm new here, but not to the body. Hope y'all understand.

lampholder
Feb 21st 2009, 11:28 PM
A Wise Hebrew bible scholar once told me:

Pray for Pre-trib,but be prepared to go through till Post-trib.:idea:

third hero
Feb 22nd 2009, 03:40 AM
A Wise Hebrew bible scholar once told me:

Pray for Pre-trib,but be prepared to go through till Post-trib.:idea:

Ah... but a psudo-intellegent poster by the name of third hero.... (Yes, I am referring to myself in the third person.... time to break out the straight-jacket....:idea:)... Has put it this way.

"Hope for the best, prepared for the worst, you should be...."(Sorry, Yoda moment).

Brian Lloyd
Mar 4th 2009, 08:55 AM
The Pretrib rapture belief holds that all of the true Christians living on the planet will be taken up to Heaven at the Pretrib rapture; so by default, following that; only unbelievers are on the Earth. However, the Pretrib rapture belief also holds that many of those who were "left behind" will become new Christians during the tribulation.

Noone has to do anything to 'proove' themselves to the Lord. We don't do any actions or works to gain merit with God; rather we belief, trust, and follow His Son Jesus Christ, who died on the Cross; prooving His love for us that while we were yet sinners, He died for us.




The Posttrib rapture belief holds that all Christians remain on the Earth through all of the endtime events, and that when Christ comes, it is only once from Heaven, to gather true believer and to destroy the wicked. Whether or not all of the wicked are destroyed at His return or later, is differentiated in the different Millennial views.

Again, noone here as in the Pretrib view, prooves they are a child of God by their accomplishments, but rather, by their relationship with Jesus Christ and what He alone accomplished for us.




The best help anyone here can advise you, is to start reading God's word...and read alot of it, and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you. Don't look for quick answers, but rather pray and meditate, and compare scripture with scripture, and undertake that if you faithfully search for answers, the Lord will provide them through his words.

I would suggest as a starting place, to hold off on trying to figure out Revelation, which as a symbolic apocryphal work of literature, is very difficult to understand as a new Christian. Start out reading Matthew 13, 24-25, Mark 13, Luke 17, John 5-6, Romans 8, I Corinthians 15, I Thess 4-5, 2 Thess 1-2, 2 Peter 3, and Jude 1 first....all much smaller reads, which will give you a good intro into what the Bible itself teaches regarding most all endtime events. Once you have a fairly comfortable understanding of those passages (which are pretty straight forward to understand), then you'll have a much better foundation for beginning to study Revelation.

Also, when you begin to study Revelation, you'll find it draws from many O.T. passages like Isaiah 2, 24-26, 65-66, Daniel 2, 7, 11-12, etc...so background reading in those areas are also helpful.

The NT writings however, are the most clear and straightforward, and I would suggest those first as a starting point.

Brian Lloyd:
This is IMO very good advice.

iruntherace4Him
Mar 7th 2009, 07:57 PM
If I believed that God would allow me and my loved ones to go through His Judgment and Wrath on this earth, I would be totally depressed and want to die with what is coming .. I'm already saddened and affected by the world's moral freefall..This is my only hope in the days that we live in, that Christ will come for me before that terrible day of His Wrath. Even Lot and his wife and two daughters were taken out, before God rained down His judgment on Sodom and Gommorah. Abraham got the answer for all of us who are God's children on this subject. God removes His before His judgement.

Brian Lloyd
Mar 8th 2009, 05:03 AM
If I believed that God would allow me and my loved ones to go through His Judgment and Wrath on this earth, I would be totally depressed and want to die with what is coming .. I'm already saddened and affected by the world's moral freefall..This is my only hope in the days that we live in, that Christ will come for me before that terrible day of His Wrath. Even Lot and his wife and two daughters were taken out, before God rained down His judgment on Sodom and Gommorah. Abraham got the answer for all of us who are God's children on this subject. God removes His before His judgement.

Brian Lloyd:

Yes, I agree, The Body of The Lord is not destined for the Wrath of God!
Our God is not about to "punish" Himself!

bibleman
Mar 8th 2009, 04:01 PM
I have not posted on this site in years. All my previous post on this forum were from a dispensational pre-trib methodology. Over the last 4 years my views have changed to a covenant Reformed Christo-centric hermeneutics. I have also come to the place to compare scripture with scripture.

Therefore the last reply to this discussion does not give a scriptural response to what has been stated or to prove the viewpoint of the one responding. Brian Llyod stated:

"Yes, I agree, The Body of The Lord is not destined for the Wrath of God!
Our God is not about to "punish" Himself!"



This statement does not show what scripture states about what God will do, but only gives a reasoned response of what this person feels that God would do. But in a sense this statement is correct. The body of the Lord is not destined for the wrath to come, but will be delivered from that wrath. John the Baptist warned the Jews,of his time,to flee from the wrath to come. Was John speaking of the tribulation? Not hardly, because these first century Jews have since died and will not be here for the final tribulation of this world.So here is what John told them:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Notice here what the "wrath to come" is. It is Hell fire. It is the Whitethrone judgment of Jesus. To prove this John goes on to say:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

You see that all through the scriptures the Bible is plain that God has appointed a Day in which he will judge the world in righteousness. All through the scriptures the Bible affirms that this day is when Christ returns. There will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust on the same day. The resurrection of the damned will follow closely that of the resurrection of the righteous. Study these scriptures carefully:

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Study Matt 13 carefully where Jesus gives parables of what the kingdom of heaven is like. The tares and wheat grow together until the end of the world and then they are seperated by the angels and the tares are cast into fire while the wheat is gathered in the barns. Notice that this is entirely identical to John's statement in Matt 3.

Also Jesus speaks of this age as being like a fisherman who cast a net into the sea and draws out divers kinds of vessels and divides them and cast the bad into everlasting fire, but the good he keeps. When does this happen? At the end of the world.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


When Paul speaks of the wrath to come in 1 Thess 1:10 and 5:9 he is not speaking of the tribulation, but is speaking of eternal damnation. He states in 1 Thess 1:10 that we are looking for the Son from heaven at his coming. Matt 24 is a good commentary on when this occurs and it will be after the tribulation of those days. Notice when Christ comes he sends his angels out to gather his elect from the four winds of heaven. Notice this is identical to the angels gathering the wheat from among the tares and the angels gathering the good from the bad vessels.

{Many try to say that God has two groups of elect on this earth, this is not true. The elect are all those in Christ-----read on through this post}

Now where in 1 Thess 4 do we have a date or a hint of a time when Christ will come. It explains the rapture, but does not hint at when it will occur. To assume that it occurs before the tribulation is to force upon the text something that it does not state. In hermeneutics we have the terms 'exegesis' & 'eisegesis'. 'Exegesis' is when we rightly draw out of the text what it states. An 'eisegesis' is when we read into the text something that is not there. If we use the 'analogy of faith' or the principle that scripture interprets scripture then we must conclude that the rapture of 1 Thess 4 is at the end of the world at Christ coming. Now where does the Bible ever hint at a secret coming before his second coming.

Dispensationalism is a man made method of trying to interpret scripture. It's logical conclusion would force someone to conclude that there are two methods of salvation, thus it should be rejected. Dispensationalism tries to argue that the Jews are saved by Christ at the end of this age, yet they do not become the body of Christ because they do not dwell with Christ, but instead dwell in a natural kindsom for one thousand years. The Bible never affirms this, but instead declares that all that come through him will dwell where he is and he stated that in his Fathers house where many mansions and that if we believed in him that he would return and take us {all those in him, Jews and Gentiles} to dwell with him, that where he is we may be also.

Hebrews is a good commentary on the Old testament and declares that Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is God and that God promised him a heavenly country and not only him, but all those who become his descendants by faith. Paul shows in Romans 9 & 11 that the natural seed is not the true seed and in Galatians 4 declares thru his allegory that natural Israel {Ishmael} and natural Jerusalem {Hagar} was cut off. But that the Jerusalem which is above {the Heavenly Jerusalem} is free and is the mother of us all {the elect} or those who are the children of promise.

You see Jesus is the true Israel. All the promises go to him. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. The promises of Abraham go to Christ the greatest descendant of Abraham. All those who have faith in Christ are the true children of Abraham.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


There is a false concept in the church today[ brought on by dispensational teachings] that the church was not foretold in the Old Testament, but is a new thing or a great parenthesis in God's dealings with man. But this is not true. Peter is plain that the prophets looked for this time and the glory that should follow 1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. and the great parenthesis is not this present age, but was the Mosaic covenant. God intervined in between his covenant of grace, given to Abraham, with the Mosaic covenant, also an extension of the covenant of grace. This is proved by Paul in Galatians when he gives us the reason the law was given:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The seed to come to whom the promises were made is the greatest of Abraham's descendants, Jesus. We have showed this with Gal 3:16.


Now concerning Christ second coming:

In the New Testament epistles the Apostles constantly stated that they were looking for Christ coming and that when he came that this world would be over with and we would enter the eternal world. Christ is not coming a second time as a Priest in order that sinners might be saved during a thousand more years, but is coming as a Judge. James said behold the Judge standeth before the door James 5:9.

John stated that this is the last time 1 John 2:18 and Paul declared that when Christ cometh that he would take vengeance on those who know not God, nor obey the gospel and that he would be glorified with his saints. Peter declared that we looked for a new heaven and a new earth, wherein dwellth righteousness 2 Peter 3.

Christ himself told Caiaphas that when he comes that Caiaphas would see him coming in the air. Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Therefore Revelation 1:7 is true when it states that every eye would see Christ at his coming including those who pierced him. This is because the resurrection of the damned follows close behind the resurrection of the just.

So using scripture we have to conclude that there is no pre-trib rapture, nor a thousand year reign after this age.

We should never take one scripture such as Rev 20 [which is cloaked in a book of symbolism and figurative language] and contradict everything the Bible teaches elsewhere. The principle 'sacra Scriptura sui interpres' or 'scripture should interpret scripture' should be followed. We should never interpret the clear by the obscure, but should interpret the obscure in light of the clear.

quiet dove
Mar 8th 2009, 07:17 PM
So using scripture we have to conclude that there is no pre-trib rapture, nor a thousand year reign after this age.

We should never take one scripture such as Rev 20 [which is cloaked in a book of symbolism and figurative language] and contradict everything the Bible teaches elsewhere. The principle 'sacra Scriptura sui interpres' or 'scripture should interpret scripture' should be followed. We should never interpret the clear by the obscure, but should interpret the obscure in light of the clear.

But all of that long post is based on your interpretation of scripture, obviously many still see a pre trib rapture and disagree with your interpretation/understanding.

Rev 20 is hardly obscure and the pre trib understanding of it is based on the rest of scripture, in full harmony and without contradiction. (of course, (based on my interpretation/understanding)

Watchmen
Mar 8th 2009, 07:34 PM
I have not posted on this site in years. All my previous post on this forum were from a dispensational pre-trib methodology. Over the last 4 years my views have changed to a covenant Reformed Christo-centric hermeneutics. I have also come to the place to compare scripture with scripture.I am glad to hear that you have seen the light, and no longer subscribe to the false teavching of the pretrib rapture.



Dispensationalism is a man made method of trying to interpret scripture. It's logical conclusion would force someone to conclude that there are two methods of salvation, thus it should be rejected.I agree totally


Dispensationalism tries to argue that the Jews are saved by Christ at the end of this age, yet they do not become the body of Christ because they do not dwell with Christ, but instead dwell in a natural kindsom for one thousand years. The Bible never affirms this, but instead declares that all that come through him will dwell where he is and he stated that in his Fathers house where many mansions and that if we believed in him that he would return and take us {all those in him, Jews and Gentiles} to dwell with him, that where he is we may be also.I am so glad you have made the strides you have so far, but you might want to study what those ''mansions'' really are and were we will spend eternity.

Hint of what the ''Mansions'' are
2nd Cor 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


Hint as to where we spend eternity, read Revelation 21.



So using scripture we have to conclude that there is no pre-trib rapture, nor a thousand year reign after this age.You are right there is no pretrib rapture, however you should rethink your believe on the Millennium. Google the beliefs of the very first disciples it is Called ''Historical Premileenialism'', you really should study it, I believe you would get a lot out of it. I can see that you are really looking for truth.

Watchmen
Mar 8th 2009, 07:38 PM
But all of that long post is based on your interpretation of scripture, obviously many still see a pre trib rapture and disagree with your interpretation/understanding.

Rev 20 is hardly obscure and the pre trib understanding of it is based on the rest of scripture, in full harmony and without contradiction. (of course, (based on my interpretation/understanding)It is impossible for the pretrib rapture to be harmonious with Revelation 20 when Revelation 20 clearly states the first resurrection is after the Tribulation is over seeing as it includes tribulational martyrs as well tribulational survivers.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

quiet dove
Mar 8th 2009, 08:06 PM
It is impossible for the pretrib rapture to be harmonious with Revelation 20 when Revelation 20 clearly states the first resurrection is after the Tribulation is over seeing as it includes tribulational martyrs as well tribulational survivers.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That all depends on the definition of "first resurrection" and since "second" resurrection is not mentioned then "first" does not necessarily indicate or mean a counting of resurrections but seems to imply more description of type than number of.

In Matt 27:53 we are told:

Mat 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

So "first" being a number count is already happened. The only OT saints that could possibly qualify are the ones who believed God's promises, those like Abraham whos faith had made them righteous.

To say that these who were raised from the grave simply came back to life, physical mortal life, after who knows how long being dead would be more of a cruel joke than blessing on them.

The witness of Jesus being God and raising some back to mortal life was all done prior to His death and resurrection and no on could be raised immortal prior to His resurrection, plus, those He raised were only dead for, at the longest, several days so they came back to the life they just left, not however many (possible) years later.

Teleiosis
Mar 8th 2009, 08:16 PM
Please help me understand all of this.

For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord?

If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God? I am so confused by so many different opinions.

Is God's word really this hard to understand?

I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready?

Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point.

So if there is no pre rapture what does one do once the tribulation starts? Do we run for the hills or just stay where you are and die from starvation or another means?

I don't understand why God would make us suffer when Jesus already suffered and paid the price for our sins. Can someone explain this to me?

Thank you for your help!

- First of all, I have adopted a Pre-Wrath Rapture eschatology. I think we will enter the one 'seven' and go through the first half oppression and even suffer the Great Tribulation after the midpoint abomination, but that we will be taken out of the world before God's Wrath falls in the majority of the second half of the one 'seven.'
- Secondly, God's Word includes dichotomies: seemingly opposite messages; Jesus is both the Lamb and the Lion. That doesn't make sense to us at first. However, it is like two sides to the same coin. They have different "faces" but both are part of the whole and together they have one "value."

As to your last question - why would God forsake us? - let me illustrate a dichotomy in eschatology which you can find in the Epistles, Paul's letters:

"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." - 2Co 12:9
We live by faith, and we are saved by Jesus. That Salvation happened for us in three ways: 1. on the Cross, 2. when we admit Christ into our lives, and finally 3. when we are 'taken up' by Him on the Day of the Lord. We need Jesus. Only those who are truly weak know that. Those who are rich like the Church of Laodicea delude themselves and think they can save their own lives. Jesus said we would be handed over. But if you endure patiently, He will watch over you and your soul will not be lost even if your body is destroyed because you will continue to believe in the promise of Salvation that Jesus gave you:

Jn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Eschatology is hard. It is not milk, and Paul was on fire for it early on but as time went on, his letters were tempered with the essential Gospel message. The reason your Church doesn't preach on the end-times is because it literally scares people - and more importantly - it doesn't give them the tools they need to live by faith.

So if you concentrate on the next right thing to do and pray to know what God's Will is for you, and you thank God often and count your blessings as you go through each day - you will grow strong in faith.

But know in the end-times that faith will be tried. You may find yourself in that Daniel moment where you have to bow to an idol or be killed. You may find yourself in a position to "save" your own life by submitting to an identification mark which will allow you to get an income and spend it - and what you decide in that moment will decide where you spend an eternity.

It's not easy, but endure patiently, keep the faith and hold steadfast in Christ and you will have an amazing tale to tell when each of us have to give an account of our lives before God in Heaven.

Welcome to the club. I hope you find brothers and sisters who will edify you and help you grow spiritually.

Mark

Watchmen
Mar 8th 2009, 08:33 PM
That all depends on the definition of "first resurrection" and since "second" resurrection is not mentioned then "first" does not necessarily indicate or mean a counting of resurrections but seems to imply more description of type than number of.Of course the first resurrection isn't really the first resurrection, then that would make the pretrib rapture false right? Just like the last trump is not really the last trump, or the coming of the Lord is not really the coming of the Lord. Yes if we believe the Bible really meant exactly what it said, then there would be no room for the false pretrib interpretation.

quiet dove
Mar 8th 2009, 08:46 PM
Of course the first resurrection isn't really the first resurrection, then that would make the pretrib rapture false right? Just like the last trump is not really the last trump, or the coming of the Lord is not really the coming of the Lord. Yes if we believe the Bible really meant exactly what it said, then there would be no room for the false pretrib interpretation.

That is not what I said, I said that "first" does not necessarily describe number but instead type, that and would not make a rapture false, and would be consistent also with Matt 27:53. When you use the word false it does not apply to the pre trib rapture, but your misunderstanding of it.

Teleiosis
Mar 8th 2009, 08:50 PM
Quiet Dove: There are four times the Bible mentions two resurrections of the dead in an all-encompassing sense; that said, people were resurrected before the "first" resurrection.

The first resurrection is only for the spiritually living. The second is for both the righteous and the wicked from beyond the grave.

To all: In the same sense, there are several types of "firstfruits." There are those captives who were seated with Jesus when He went to see the Father after rising from the grave. There are the firstfruits who were the Apostles on the Festival of Firstfruits which is also known as the Pentecost. Then there are the 144,000 who are the firstfruits of the Day of the Lord...

God's Word is not simple; it takes discernment and wisdom and that is given by God through the Holy Spirit. Ask for it; it will come.

Watchmen: Likewise, I can show you from the Bible why the "Last Trumpet" cannot be the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath notwithstanding that the first Resurrection is not claimed until the number of martyrs is made complete at the end of the one 'seven' after the battle at Armageddon.

But before you get into all these difficulties, we are dealing with a young Christian. - Keep your message simple. - Don't be so quick to judge what is "false," because many hold to it. - Do have an answer but remember to give it in gentleness and respect.

Watchmen
Mar 8th 2009, 08:54 PM
That is not what I said, I said that "first" does not necessarily describe number but instead type, that and would not make a rapture false, and would be consistent also with Matt 27:53. When you use the word false it does not apply to the pre trib rapture, but your misunderstanding of it.The rapture is not false, there will be a catching away of the living immediately proceeding the first resurrection which occurs at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ. When I use the word false I am referring to the teaching that the catching away or rapture occurs before the tribulation or any other teaching that has it taking place before the return of the Lord.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The rapture is at the coming of the Lord and not a day before it.

quiet dove
Mar 8th 2009, 08:54 PM
I forgot to address the seventh = the last trumpet. It is simple to me, scripture tells us trumpets had understandable sounds so the people knew what they meant and what to do, thus, a trumpet to gather and a trumpet of judgment would not be the same trumpets and the last trumpet is a "gather" and the seventh is a "judgment warning".

Teleiosis
Mar 8th 2009, 08:58 PM
The rapture is at the coming of the Lord and not a day before it.

And the Day of the Lord is described at the sixth Seal - before God's Wrath - which has been decreed and I believe is stored on the Scroll - which in turn is only opened when ALL the Seals have been broken -- goes forth with the Trumpet Judgments.

Teleiosis
Mar 8th 2009, 09:00 PM
I forgot to address the seventh = the last trumpet. It is simple to me, scripture tells us trumpets had understandable sounds so the people knew what they meant and what to do, thus, a trumpet to gather and a trumpet of judgment would not be the same trumpets and the last trumpet is a "gather" and the seventh is a "judgment warning".

Yes there are many kinds of trumpets. There is the battle trumpet and the trumpet of warning of impending attack...

...and then there is the Trumpet call of God which rouses the Dead in Christ from Paradise and the ends of Heaven.

Remember the example of Rosh ha-Shanah; the Festival of Trumpets. The Last Trumpet (mirroring the First Trumpet of Pentecost) is the FIRST of many different trumpets.

David Taylor
Mar 9th 2009, 12:01 AM
**Mod Staff Note**

Don't continue to allow this thread to turn into an uncharitable attack of the xyz-trib view.

Be courteous and patient in disagreement, or the thread will either be closed or additional pejorative posts may be deleted without warning.

Being Christ-like in disagreement should be all participant's goal.

Watchmen
Mar 9th 2009, 12:45 AM
I forgot to address the seventh = the last trumpet. It is simple to me, scripture tells us trumpets had understandable sounds so the people knew what they meant and what to do, thus, a trumpet to gather and a trumpet of judgment would not be the same trumpets and the last trumpet is a "gather" and the seventh is a "judgment warning".Of course I already told you you could not accept that the last trump is the last trump or you will have to deny the pretrib rapture.

Watchmen
Mar 9th 2009, 12:48 AM
Quiet Dove: There are four times the Bible mentions two resurrections of the dead in an all-encompassing sense; that said, people were resurrected before the "first" resurrection.

The first resurrection is only for the spiritually living. The second is for both the righteous and the wicked from beyond the grave.

To all: In the same sense, there are several types of "firstfruits." There are those captives who were seated with Jesus when He went to see the Father after rising from the grave. There are the firstfruits who were the Apostles on the Festival of Firstfruits which is also known as the Pentecost. Then there are the 144,000 who are the firstfruits of the Day of the Lord...

God's Word is not simple; it takes discernment and wisdom and that is given by God through the Holy Spirit. Ask for it; it will come.

Watchmen: Likewise, I can show you from the Bible why the "Last Trumpet" cannot be the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath notwithstanding that the first Resurrection is not claimed until the number of martyrs is made complete at the end of the one 'seven' after the battle at Armageddon.

But before you get into all these difficulties, we are dealing with a young Christian. - Keep your message simple. - Don't be so quick to judge what is "false," because many hold to it. - Do have an answer but remember to give it in gentleness and respect.The last trump may not be the 7th trumpet, but I can guarantee you this, the last trump is the very last trumpet that will ever sound hence the ''LAST'' Trump. So if the rapture is at the last trump it can not be before the end of the tribulation much less before it even starts

iconoclast2012
Mar 9th 2009, 01:32 AM
....stick around brethren...it will be amazin'....!!!....o ye of little faith....

DIZZY
Mar 9th 2009, 02:40 AM
I forgot to address the seventh = the last trumpet. It is simple to me, scripture tells us trumpets had understandable sounds so the people knew what they meant and what to do, thus, a trumpet to gather and a trumpet of judgment would not be the same trumpets and the last trumpet is a "gather" and the seventh is a "judgment warning".

Hi quiet dove,
Thank you for your wisdom. I knew that the trumpets were used for many different things in the bible and I knew the last trumpet in the verse below was to call the saints to the Lord in rapture.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=52&version=50&context=verse)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

But I must admit I never looked at it the way as the seventh trumpet as the judgment trumpet. Thank you the Lord has opened my eyes using you. God Bless.

There is a difference in the two trumpets as you said, one for calling the dead and alive saints to heaven the other is to bring judgment on the world.

Revelation 11:14-15
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

The sounding of the seventh trumpet announces that the kingdoms of this earth (in other words, the whole earth) shall be ruled over by the Lord and His reign will be forever.

Once again thank you.

quiet dove
Mar 9th 2009, 02:59 AM
Of course I already told you you could not accept that the last trump is the last trump or you will have to deny the pretrib rapture.

I am not having any trouble with the last trump in that it is required to determine the last trump of what, what that trumpet is the last of. When I find a reason to deny the pre trib rapture, then I will do so.

Gods Child
Mar 9th 2009, 02:21 PM
(Rev 20)
That all depends on the definition of "first resurrection" and since "second" resurrection is not mentioned then "first" does not necessarily indicate or mean a counting of resurrections but seems to imply more description of type than number of.

I would have to disagree. Rev 20 does speak of the "second" death.
And says that this is the 1st resurrection after the mark of the beast.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.





In Matt 27:53 we are told:

Mat 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

So "first" being a number count is already happened. The only OT saints that could possibly qualify are the ones who believed God's promises, those like Abraham whos faith had made them righteous.

To say that these who were raised from the grave simply came back to life, physical mortal life, after who knows how long being dead would be more of a cruel joke than blessing on them.

The witness of Jesus being God and raising some back to mortal life was all done prior to His death and resurrection and no on could be raised immortal prior to His resurrection, plus, those He raised were only dead for, at the longest, several days so they came back to the life they just left, not however many (possible) years later.

Those that came out of the grave are; ( 2 Cor 5:8) to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord. This is not a resurrection.

1 Cor 15 states that the resurrection of the dead happens "at his coming".
This can only mean that there has been no resurrection prior to his coming.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

2 Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.



*

IBWatching
Mar 9th 2009, 04:29 PM
...When I find a reason to deny the pre trib rapture, then I will do so.

Same here. And I've been looking for one for over 30 years.

bibleman
Mar 9th 2009, 10:14 PM
But all of that long post is based on your interpretation of scripture, obviously many still see a pre trib rapture and disagree with your interpretation/understanding.

Rev 20 is hardly obscure and the pre trib understanding of it is based on the rest of scripture, in full harmony and without contradiction. (of course, (based on my interpretation/understanding)



What quiet dove is here appealing to is scripture that contains no truth except for the one who is reading it and then it has the truth as interpreted by the one who read it. In other words one might interpret the scriptures one way and another might interpret them another way, but this is not true. There may be many applications of scripture, but there is only one interpretation. There is only one meaning to every text of scripture.

If you interpret Rev 20 over and against John 6 where Jesus states that the resurrections [plural] both of the just and unjust are simultaneous then you have not harmonized the scripture but instead you have contradicted the scripture.

The scripture, as Martin Luther stated, is not a wax nose that one can mould to fit ones view. No where in the scriptures does it speak of Christ returning but once more. There is no secret rapture, nor two second comings. When Christ comes it will be to raise the dead and to judge this world.


Now I was told by another individual to search out historic pre-mill and that a-mill is wrong. But I have searched out historic pre-mill and can give sound evidence from sound historians who affirm that most of the early church was not pre-mill. I to used to appeal to this. I would argue for my pre-mill, [not from scripture] but from what I thought the early church taught. There were a few who did hold to pre-mill, but they even affirmed that during there time there were many like minded Christians who did not hold to the pre-mill view.

The fact that several Christians in the first years of Christianity held to pre-mill is not enough to conclude that it is true. The Bible is were we are to get all of our doctrines, not from what others have stated throughout history. This does not mean that I do not read them or glean from them some wisdom or insights, but that in the final out come I must base what I believe about scripture on what the scripture states.

It is true as I stated that some early Christians and just a few mind you, held to pre-mill, but this is because they held to the Jewish belief of what the Messiah would do. The Jews of Christ day were looking for a Messiah who would set up a kingdom, a visible, literal kingdom. A few early Christians saw this kingdom as being fulfilled in the thousand years after this age. This is not true. If you go back and search my first post I explained and showed scriptures from the apostles themselves who looked for Christ coming, not secretly, but openly, and that when he came that this world as we know it would end.

Now if you want to study deeper then contact me through my e-mail address and I will send you via- e-mail a Pdf book showing through the Bible that the views of both pre-trib and pre-mill are false concepts. I mean the book of Hebrews is also plain on this.

adolfo123
Mar 9th 2009, 10:28 PM
the rapture as state is false doctrine .... all the verse used to talk about this doctrine are talking about the last trumped and the coming of Jesus (judgment day)

bibleman
Mar 9th 2009, 10:43 PM
Thereis a teaching in the church today known as dispensationalism. This view holds to a pre-trib rapture and a pre-mill concerning the thousand years. The fact that so many Christains today have been deceived on both of these points is because most of the teaching done from pulpits today is from a dispensational viewpoint.

Now first I want to state that dispensationalism also holds to a sepearte plan for Israel and a separate plan for the church. Even though the scriptures no where affirms this nonsense many still teach and propagate this viewpoint. The apostles argues that what was being fulfilled in and through the life and death of Christ is that which Israel looked for. The hope and consolation of Israel is the Messiah. He has come in the person of Jesus Christ and has fulfilled all of what was foretold by the prophets.

The system known as Dispensationalism did not come about until 1830 and was propagated by a man known as John Nelson Darby. This man became part of the Plymouth Bretheren and their teachings were spread widely by a man named C. I. Scofield in his Scofield Study Bible. The Pre-trib view has been traced back to a retarded girl named Margaret McDonald who went into a trance and had a vision that Christ would return in two different stages. This vision occurred around the same time John Nelson Darby was leaving orthodox teachings and this vision was embraced by him.

For those who are thirsty and want to know the truth I suggest that you order John H. Gerstner's book "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth." He traces the viewpoint of dispensationalism from Darby to this present age. For those who want to know the truth I suggest they order Dave McPherson's "The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin." After searching the world over for the origin of the pre-trib theory McPherson ended up in Scotland and found that Margaret McDonald had this trance and since then the view of pre-trib has been propagated from the pulpits world wide.

Until the 1800's there was no such teaching as pre-trib eschatology and there was no such thing as pre-millennialism. There was historic pre-millennialism, but in it there was no sepearation of Israel and the Church. The Church was taught in historic Pre-millennialism as being the continuation of Israel. Today's pre-mill is a new scheme or doctrine that did not exist until the 1800's.

If you want to know the difference between historic pre-mill and today's pre-mill then let me know and I will post ten differences.

bibleman
Mar 9th 2009, 11:24 PM
My challenge goes out. It has been stated that the early Christians in the church were premillennial in teir understanding. I challenge anyone to show me one scripture from the apostles or from the postapostoolic church within the generation of the apostles.

Search Clement of Rome---no pre-mill
Search Ignatius, who by the way wrote many epistels---no pre-mill
Search Polycarp---no pre-mill
Search Athanasius ---no pre-mill
Search Theophillus---no pre-mill

D. H. Kromminga one of the most recent and ablest pre-mill writers claims far less for pre-mill in the early church. He finds Barnabas to be, not only not a premillennarian, but the Father of A-millennial understanding. Of all the Apostolic Fathers, Kromminga claims only Papias as a millenarian, but does not find the evidence in his case conclusive. He grants that Justin and Irenaeus acknowledge the presence of millennial eschatologies in the church. He notes that Justin laid the foundation for the Reformed doctrine of the covenants and that he was not a premillennialist. Speaking generally, he says:

"So far as the available evidence goes, there is no ground for ascertaining that Millennarianism was prevalent in the church during the apostolic period, ending with the year 150 A.D. Not only was there very little of it, so far as the literature indicates but what little there was can be traced rather definitely to un-christian Jewish apocalyptic sources."

From D. H. Kromminga "The Millennium and the Church" 1945; quoted by John Gerstner in "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth."

Matter of fact many of the apocalyptic books such as: Enoch, The Twelve Patriarchs, and the Sibylline Books were pre-mill. Not only were the apocalyptic books pre-mill but almost all of the arch heretics in the early church were pre-mill such as: Cerinthus, Marcion, Montanus, etc.......


The only passage that pre-millers point to is Rev 20 and if rightly interpreted with the rest of scripture this passage does not teach apre-mill view.

If this passage is speaking of a bodily resurrection then only those who are beheaded will be raised so you must be sure to be beheaded for Christ sake if you are going to be raised. But the resurrection here is not literal but is spiritual. All one has to do is to read starting at John 5:21------and he will find the first and the second resurrection. Also Ephesians 2:1,5 also speaks of the first resurrection. The first resurrection are all those who have been raised to newness of life.


Now let me quote from Quite Dove:

Originally Posted by quiet dove
...When I find a reason to deny the pre trib rapture, then I will do so.



Evidently you are not looking in scripture for that reason, but are basing it upon your personal bias. The scripture is plain. In Acts 1 the disciples were asked by the angels: "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Jesus is coming the second time in the same manner as he left and that is bodily and when he comes it will be in the clouds just as he ascended in the clouds.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Gods Child
Mar 10th 2009, 04:18 AM
The last trump may not be the 7th trumpet, but I can guarantee you this, the last trump is the very last trumpet that will ever sound hence the ''LAST'' Trump. So if the rapture is at the last trump it can not be before the end of the tribulation much less before it even starts

That made perfect sense to me, but I have to admit I had to read it twice to get it's meaning.

bosco
Mar 10th 2009, 05:26 AM
That made perfect sense to me, but I have to admit I had to read it twice to get it's meaning.

Just some two cents here...the "Last trump" as stated by Paul, is the same Greek word translated as trumpet throughout the NT.

Bosco

Gods Child
Mar 10th 2009, 02:03 PM
Just some two cents here...the "Last trump" as stated by Paul, is the same Greek word translated as trumpet throughout the NT.

Bosco

Yes, I agree;

Strong’s Concordance= Greek word; G4536 – salpigx = trumpet , trump
Found in such scriptures as; 1 Thess 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, Mt 24:31, Rev 8:6, Which all have the same meaning of the same Greek word used (trumpet/trump)

What Watchmen was saying was that since 1 Cor 15:52 tells us that we will be raptured at the “last trump” , then the last trumpet can not be at the beginning of the tribulation, because the last trumpet of God is found in the book of Revelation, which is the 7th trumpet. The "last" trumpet of God is not found at the beginning of the tribulation.

We are told that at this "last trumpet" that rewards are given to the Saints at this time. We are also told that at this "last trumpet" is when Jesus shall reign for ever. We know from Rev 20 that we Christians reign with him, when he starts his reign. The reward to the Saints at this "last trumpet" is the 1st resurrection (rapture) where he begins to reign and we reign with him.


1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.





*

MeerkatMadden
Mar 10th 2009, 07:58 PM
Whatever we believe about this, it is important to communicate it in a spirit of love and respect.

divaD
Mar 10th 2009, 09:45 PM
The last trump may not be the 7th trumpet, but I can guarantee you this, the last trump is the very last trumpet that will ever
sound hence the ''LAST'' Trump. So if the rapture is at the last trump it can not be before the end of the tribulation much less
before it even starts


Excellent points! It appears to me that the pre-trib view has absolutely nothing to stand on, based upon this very logical conclusion. IOW, the last trump trumps ever trump in the Bible(try saying that a hundred times real fast http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon12.gif). It can't be the last trump if there are other trumps that follow. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

bibleman
Mar 10th 2009, 10:25 PM
quote from "God's Child':

We are told that at this "last trumpet" that rewards are given to the Saints at this time. We are also told that at this "last trumpet" is when Jesus shall reign for ever. We know from Rev 20 that we Christians reign with him, when he starts his reign. The reward to the Saints at this "last trumpet" is the 1st resurrection (rapture) where he begins to reign and we reign with him.



I am going to do as 'MeerkatMadden' suggested and bieng loving and respectful. But I do want to deal with this statement by 'God's Child'.

The statement was made that Jesus begins to reign at the rapture, so I take it that you think that there will be a thousand years after this age. But you have missed what the apostles state. I have shown by Peter, Paul, James, and John that they looked for the eternal state or age after this age. Also when we read the epistles we must keep in mind that they are interpreting the events of Christ life, death, and resurrection. The gospels give us 'The Event' or the life, death, and resurrection and the epistles give us the interpretation of the events surrounding and dealing with Christ.

I challenge you know to look at Psalms 110 carefully. This is one of the most quoted Old Testament scriptures throughout the New Testament. It comes to a completion at the resurrection examine 1 Cor 15:25.


Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Christ is reigning right now and at the resurrection it will deliver the kingdom back up to the Father as 1 Cor 15:26 states.


You see dispensationalism has confounded the interpretation of scripture. Dispensationalism has the church looking for the fulfillment of scriptures that the apostles declare is being fulfilled right now. We must listen to the apostles and their interpretation of the events surrounding Christ.

Take for instance Amos 9:11. Today it is being taught that one day the Messiah Jesus will come back a second time and raise up the tabernacle of David. This is supposed to be a future prophesy and deals entirely with Israel alone according to dispensationalist. But James declares in Acts 15:16 that this prophecy is being fulfilled right now.

We must remember that the Old Testament types, rituals and symbols speak of eternal things. This includes the land promised Abraham. He never inhabited that land himself though it was promised him. There are two sets of promises in Genesis, one dealing with Abraham and one dealing with his seed. Abraham's seed inhabited the land. They inhabited all the land and not just some of it as dispensationalist declare today.

Let God tell us whether or not the Israelites inhabited all the land or not.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.


Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

If one would go back and read Genesis they would see that God promised Abraham the land and his seed. Later God promised it to Abraham alone and told him that he would be the father of many nations. This can be found in Genesis 17. Read Romans 4. Romans 4 is a commentary on Genesis 17.

God fulfilled the promise of the land to natural Israel and eventually cut them off. Read Romans 9, 11 and Galatians 4 [allegory of Hagar, Ishmael, Sarah, and Isaac]

But in Genesis 17 God preomised that Abraham would be the father of many nations and Paul declares in Romans 4 that all they who walk in the same faith as Abraham are his children and they do not inherit a piece of land, but inherit the whole world.


Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


Now go read Hebrews 11


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


All Israel will be saved at Christ coming as Paul declares in Romans 11:26 but that "all Israel" spoken of are all those who have the same faith as father Abraham and they are the true Israel. The natural seed is not the true Israel, but the spiritual seed is the true Israel.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


All those whom God has chosen from the foundations of this world Ephesians 1:4 are the children of promise Praise God.

There will be no more ages after this one, but we will go into the eternal state. This was believed throughout the entire church age until 1830.

divaD
Mar 10th 2009, 10:51 PM
The statement was made that Jesus begins to reign at the rapture, so I take it that you think that there will be a thousand
years after this age. But you have missed what the apostles state. I have shown by Peter, Paul, James, and John that they
looked for the eternal state or age after this age. Also when we read the epistles we must keep in mind that they are
interpreting the events of Christ life, death, and resurrection. The gospels give us 'The Event' or the life, death, and
resurrection and the epistles give us the interpretation of the events surrounding and dealing with Christ.

I challenge you know to look at Psalms 110 carefully. This is one of the most quoted Old Testament scriptures throughout
the New Testament. It comes to a completion at the resurrection examine 1 Cor 15:25.


Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Christ is reigning right now and at the resurrection it will deliver the kingdom back up to the Father as 1 Cor 15:26 states.








1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.



I feel that you make some good points, and I'm even inclined to agree with some of your points. But what I'm wondering, where does verse 26 fit in with your overall conclusions? When do you feel that this verse is fullfilled in it's entirety?


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This is when I believe the last enemy to be destroyed will occur. Now if one takes the millenial reign of Christ literally, such as I, then verse 26
wouldn't be fullfilled until after the final resurrection, and until after satan is already literally cast forever into the lake of fire.

What I'm getting at is this. I agree, Christ is currently reigning, but He is not currently reigning physically upon this earth so to speak. This will occur after He bodily returns, thus He will continue His reigning, only now it will be physically(bodily) for a millenium or until Rev 20:14 is fullfilled.

Teleiosis
Mar 11th 2009, 02:49 AM
There will be no more ages after this one, but we will go into the eternal state. This was believed throughout the entire church age until 1830 when the lie of dispensationalism wreaked havoc in the church.

There will be a Day of the Lord when Jesus comes again, and resurrects those who hear His call (the just from Adam to then) and gathers the Elect who are the Church who barely survive the Great Tribulation from the Earth.

Then the Millennium comes and we will be as Priests in it, ruling with Jesus.

Then the earth and the heavens will be destroyed, and after that the second resurrection occurs when all, just (who lived during the Millennium) and unjust are brought forth to be separated as sheep and goats before the Great White Throne Judgment.

THEN there will be an eternal state.

And I'm not dispesnational.

divaD
Mar 11th 2009, 02:38 PM
I am not having any trouble with the last trump in that it is required to determine the last trump of what, what that trumpet is the last of. When I find a reason to deny the pre trib rapture, then I will do so.



The Bible declares it the last trump. This means that's it's the last trump to ever sound, irregardless if there are other types of trumpets. Even if the 7th trumpet in Revelation weren't the same as the last trump spoken of in this passage, this last trumpet in this passage will be the last trump to ever sound. There will be no more trumpet sounds after the last trump sounds, otherwise it wouldn't be classified as the last trump. Nowhere does the Word tell us that this is the last trumpet in a series of trumpets that may include other trumpets from an related series of other trumpet sounds.

Paul clearly defines this as the last trump. Wouldn't it be much better to just simply take Paul's word to heart instead of trying to make a doctrine fit around those words by claiming the last trump is not necessarily the last trumpet to ever sound, but instead it is the last trumpet in a series of various trumpet sounds, in which may include other unrelated series of trumpet sounds, when clearly the Scriptures declare that it is the last trump to ever sound? That sure seems like a lot of reading into the text things that are not even there.


Seriously, have you ever considered why Revelation never defines the 7th trumpet as the last trumpet? It's pretty simple. There is no need to. There are only 7 trumpets mentioned. If there were an 8th, a 9th, etc, then you can bet, they would have been mentioned. So obviously the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet. Putting 2 and 2 together then, obviously the last trump Paul spoke about, it is this very same 7th trumpet in Revelation. Why? Because they're both the last trumpet. There can't be more than one last trumpet, so this makes both of these trumpet sounds one and the same, IOW the last trump. This is simply Scripture interpreting Scripture...which is what Scripture is supposed to do.

One last thing I might remind you of. If you feel that this is the last trumpet in series of trumpet sounds, which may include other unrelated trumpet sounds, then it's your duty to show this with Scriptures, IOW, if this is the last in a certain series, then you should have no problem defining what is the first trumpet in that particular series of trumpet sounds. Afterall, it would be unreasonable to believe there to be a last trumpet, yet while not being able to show where Scriptures defines the first trumpet in that series. The only place I know of in the NT, where Scriptures defines the first and last trumpet in a series of trumpets, this would be in the book of Revelation. I apologize if my post comes off the wrong way. I simply feel it's important to present things in such a manner that might cause one to rethink things yet again. :)

bosco
Mar 11th 2009, 02:51 PM
I forgot to address the seventh = the last trumpet. It is simple to me, scripture tells us trumpets had understandable sounds so the people knew what they meant and what to do, thus, a trumpet to gather and a trumpet of judgment would not be the same trumpets and the last trumpet is a "gather" and the seventh is a "judgment warning".

IMHO, Paul isn't refering to just any trumpet sound, he is talking specifically about the end times. This is why I believe that there is no pre-trib rapture. When the "last trumpet" is sounded that he mentions, the dead are raised. This is an end time event, thus, the trumpet being blown aligns to the 7th trumpet in Revelation.

Matt. 24 has Messiah coming back "after the tribulation of those days." That is when the angels are sent to gather his elect. The parable of the wheat and tares (children of God/ children of the wicked one) has those two growing "together" until the time of harvest (the end of the world), then, the reapers (angels, see Matt. 24 again) are sent to gather "first" the tares and then the wheat.

When you view these scriptures with the other clues in mind, the picture becomes pretty clear. Messiah likening his return to the time of Lot and Noah. Then, it was more than a warned world who paid no mind to said warning, but Noah and Lot were given protection from the wrath just before it was poured out. Lot, the "day" he left Sodom, fire and brimestone rained down. In Noah's case, he got in the ark, closed the door, and the rains came. Neither were removed from the earth, but neither were appointed to God's wrath either, just as we are not.

I think Quiet Dove, when you compare the 1 Thes. verse with 1 Cor. 15:52 and also with Matt. 24, you will see how they line up to each other.

Again, we are not appointed to God's wrath, but there is simply no verse that directly states the church is removed before the tribulation. Yet, Matt. 24 is word for word post trib gathering of the elect.

Bosco

bibleman
Mar 11th 2009, 11:25 PM
divaD asked when I thought 1 Cor 15:26 fit into the scenerio of endtime events?

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


This will be fulfilled at the second resurrection of Rev. 20. The first resurrection occurs when all the spiritually dead hear Christ voice.

John 5: 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


This is the first resurrection and has been deemed the first resurrection by theologians up through the history of the church. At the second resurrection mentioned in Rev 20 we have all peoples resurrected to stand before a white throne this is when death is defeated. This will be the resurrection both of the just and the unjust.


Teleiosis stated:


Then the Millennium comes and we will be as Priests in it, ruling with Jesus.



No this is not what the Bible teaches. We are priest right now 1 Peter 2:9-10


9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This verse even proves that the church is the continuation of Israel. They were to be a kingdom of priest.

Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.


We are the light that burned in the holy place, we are the temple of the living God we have an altar of which, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle Heb 13:10 we have a sacrifice and have partook of the passover, and are made unto our God priest and kings.


We are not looking for a thousand year reign and instead are looking for and are receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved Heb 12:28 and have come to Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Heb 12:22-23 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. Heb 13:14.

To place Christ in an earthly kingdom reigning over natural people in which they will be able to be saved by his sacrifice in the memorial offerings of animals as dispensationalist claim is to go back to type and ritual. Christ has come there will be no more type nor ritual for the reality is come Praise God.

Listen to Hebrews:

Heb 9:28 So Christ died only once to take away the sins of many people. But when he comes again, it will not be to take away sin. He will come to save everyone who is waiting for him.

When Christ comes again it will not be as a priest to save natural people through a millennium, but will be to Judge the world. We are in the last days, the last times, Jesus comes to Judge the world.

"He cometh to JUDGE the earth" (1 Chronicles 16:33).
"He cometh to JUDGE the world" (Psalm 96:13; 98:9).
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.


Why will he have to reign on earth for a thousand years? If it is to reign over the natural people, there is a problem because there will be none here. So why reign here?

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


When Christ comes he takes vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the Gospel, punishing them with everlasting destruction from the prescence of the Lord and he is to be glorified in his saints at this time. Now I ask you why reign on earth when there is no one here but the saints?


Even though you do not claim to be dispensational and might instead be historic pre-mill your pre-mill does not fit scripture. If you cannot harmonize the general resurrections of John 5 and those in John 6 which speaks of the righteous being raised at the last day and the parables of Matthew 13 which also speak of the good and bad being seperated at the last day, if you cannot harmonize this with Rev 20 then your interpretation is faulty, either of John 5, 6 Matt 13 or of Rev 20. Since the Word of the living God does not contradict itself and is inerrant and infalliable, then itwould be the interpreter who has erred in his interpretation when he contradicts a scripture with a scripture.

Paul stated that Christ would come and destroy all those who do not obey the gospel, and to be glorified in his saints, Peter stated that we look for a new heaven and a new earth, James declares that the Judge standeth before the door, and John states, "Little children it is the last time." Now how say you that there will be a thousand years after this age, when the Bible constantly contrasts this age with the age to come or this world with the world to come?


Now if you would e-mail me I would send you a PDf book. This book will take you through the scriptures and show youwhat the scriptures state. The scriptures do not teach a pre-trib rapture, nor a thousand year reign on this earth.

The resurrected saints will not dwell with sinners or I should say that corruption and incorruption will never dwell together.

Please harmonize for me John 5, 6 and Matthew 13 where it states the dead both just and unjust will be raised on the last day and at the end of this world, harmonize this with Rev. 20. I used to think Revelation 20 was written in chronological order to, matter of fact I wrote a whole entire commentary on the book of Revelation from a futurist, dispensational viewpoint and once had it on line to be given away free. But when I realized that the scriptures teach no such nonsense I retracted this book and now I argue with scripture. I do not butt scripture against scripture but allow the clear to interpret the unclear. Pre-tribulationism and Premillennialism are both founded on assumptions and not a clear study of God's word.

The first place one must begin is to understand Israel and the church. Dispensationalist say that they are seperate, but Paul claims no such thing. The church is a continuation of Israel. Ephesians 2 explains that God has taken 2 people and made them one new man, so that now we are no more strangers and foreigners but are now fellow-citizens and saints of the household of God.

If you settle this point then you understand that Abraham and all his descendants by faith are headed to a new country wherein dwells a city whose builder and maker is God. Read Hebrews 11.

All the types, rituals, symbols of the Old Testament are fulfilled in Christ and his people. This includes the land. The natural Jerusalem and land was a type of the eternal. To say that Christ is going to reign on earth to fulfill the promises of the Jews is a distortion of the New Testament. Also it is another way of salvation. For if the Jews come through Christ, then they are part of the body of Christ and are looking for the place where Christ dwells just as we are read John 14:1-3. But if they come in another way other than Christ, then you have two ways of salvation and now affirm religious pluralism.

It was not until the 1800's that theologians believed in a sepearate plan for Jews and Gentiles. Why? I mean the Gentiles are not a sepearte entity, but are grafted in.

Please e-mail me for a copy of this PDF book and read it and then give me your views. I did not write this book, so I am not trying to convince you that I am right, but that this author is right. This author also used to be pre-trib and pre-mill, but shows from scripture that both views are a distortion of God's word. The book is free, matter of fact I got it off of the internet.

No creed of the church has ever affirmed pre-mill or pre-trib, nor where any of the Reformers or the Roman Catholic Church pre-mill or pre-trib.

[Please forgive my mispellings. I get up at 2:45 Am every morning and work until 2:30 every evening. By the time I get home I have to download a huge file with a sermon on it and then I am able to post. All I have is dial-up and I have to go to bed at 7:00 pm, so I do not proof read all of this, please forgive me.]

Teleiosis
Mar 12th 2009, 02:16 AM
When anyone says that they know something is "clear," I can bet they've got a "spin" on their interpretation.

Here is where the Bible says we will reign as Priests:
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
It's pretty hard to dance around that, but you do. You just make a blanket statement that nowhere does the Bible teach a Millennium, yet it does six times in Revelation.

About 1Pe 2:9-10:
Why then does Peter apply OT terminology to the church? He does so chiefly because of the conviction of the church that the OT writings are for it (2Tim 3:16) and that these writings speak of Jesus and his times. The functions that Israel was called into existence to perform in its day of grace the church now performs in a similar way. In the future, according to Paul, God will once again use Israel to bless the world (cf. Rom 11:1-16, 23-24).

The title "chosen people" stresses God's loving initiative in bringing the church to himself. "Royal priesthood" may be understood as "a royal house," "a body of priests" (see Notes). Both titles stress the dignity of the church because of its union with Christ. Jesus is King, and all in his "house" belong to a royal house. Calling the church "a body of priests" emphasizes its corporate role in worship, intercession, and ministry. "Holy nation" shows that God has "set apart" the church for his use. The title "a people belonging to God" stresses ownership (cf. Titus 2:14: "A people that are his very own"). "That you may declare the praises" gives the purpose of grace to men. "The praises" (aretai) often mean his "self-declarations" or his manifestations to men (cf. TDNT, 1:457-61). So then the church is to "advertise" (Selwyn, p. 167) the noble acts of God in history and thus make him known. Specifically, the Father ("him who called" [cf. 1:15]) is revealed by Jesus in his death and resurrection. Light-darkness is a common dualism in the Bible to describe God-evil, good-bad, revelation-ignorance, new age-old age (e.g., Isa 8:21-9:2; John 1:4, 8-9; Eph 5:8; 1John 1:5-2:2). Christians are once again reminded of God's action in bringing them out of darkness into his marvelous light (cf. Ps 34:5: "Those who look to him are radiant").
Peter is not talking about a strict role as Revelation 20:6 does.

We are not looking for a thousand year reign, but to be with Christ. That is the whole point of Hebrews 9:28.

Jesus will resurrect the Dead in Christ (Paul's term for departed Saints who weren't martyred) and gather up those who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation.

THEN Jesus will punish (burn) the wicked who have oppressed and persecuted the Church (the same Church God handed over to those wicked people so as to destroy our power as "priests" in Peter's sense). He has collected the wicked in one spot in time and He will destroy them.

The Millennium is not for us, or the wicked, but so that the whole house of Israel might be saved. Read up on Paul's writing on this and harmonize that with what Peter wrote.

And you are wrong to say there are no people left after God's Wrath. People will be rare, but the meek will inherit the earth. According to Isaiah man will be as rare as all the gold of Ophir. According to Zechariah, ten men will grab the hem of one Jew's cloak and ask to go to God. Ezekiel spells out what the new rules will be in the Millennium for those people who live in it. Isaiah describes what it will be like for those people. It's in the Bible man.

Furthermore, I can harmonize John 5, John 6, Matthew 13 with Rev 20. It's really not that hard when you build your eschatology on the main columns and beams of the book of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians and the book of Revelation from a sequence-of-events analysis.

The Bible lays out prophecy as a linear narrative of events. There are specific and unique events which can be used to tie various prophetic accounts together. And when the Bible says we will be raised up on the last day, it will be the last day for the Church.

Nor is the Last Trumpet absolutely last. Instead, Paul is pointing to the time when the dead will be raised and that is on the Day of the Lord and that is coincidental with the sixth Seal.

Gods Child
Mar 12th 2009, 03:10 AM
Please help me understand all of this. For those that believe the rapture will come before the tribulation then is it the unbelievers that are left behind to either take or not take the mark of the beast? and prove themselves to the Lord? If you are a believer of the post trib rapture then do we Christians all have to suffer through the tribulation and all it's horror to prove we are a child of God? I am so confused by so many different opinions. Is God's word really this hard to understand? I am a new Christian but our church never talks about any of this so I am trying to learn about it through reading the bible and gathering information here. There are just so many different opinions and as a new Christian I would like to know what really is the truth. Can you help me understand God's word so I can prepare and be ready? Will we all have to suffer to prove our faith? I don't know what is truth and what is not at this point. Thank you for your help!

Your original question has gotten many replies, but I pray this did not confuse you more.

There are many different opinions on here. Don't let the discourage you.
The truth my friend is in God's word. To understand the bible, you must let the Holy Spirit guide you. He will guide you to the truth of God's word.

When you study, pray to God for - truth, wisdom, discernment and Understanding.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

We are all learning and ever growing in the Lord.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You do not need to ask man for the answer when God can give you those answers.

When I first got saved I knew nothing of the Bible and I'm sure that I was more confused than anyone. Since I knew nothing, I did not know where to go to Church, so I stayed out and asked God to teach me. When ever I got to a part that I did not understand I would Pray for understanding and I'm not kidding the answer would just pop in my head and I'd move on, till I got to the next question and do it again.....POP...In my head...The Answer. The key was that I was asking him for guidance.
So I'm not kidding, he really means - "ask and you shall receive" and he does deliver.

It's still good to check out these treads, but what I'm saying is seek God first on everything.

bibleman
Mar 12th 2009, 10:11 PM
Teleiosis stated:

"Here is where the Bible says we will reign as Priests:
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

It's pretty hard to dance around that, but you do. You just make a blanket statement that nowhere does the Bible teach a Millennium, yet it does six times in Revelation."



Again I did not dance around this Iinterpreted this in harmony with the rest of scripture. You have God reigning on this earth. When have you ever seen a King reign on his footstool. He doesn't, he reigns from his throne.


Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?


I have harmonized Revelation 20 with the rest of scripture, you have not. You have contradicted all the scriptures that I have given. I want you to harmonize Rev 20:6 with Heb 9:26

Heb 9:26 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Again you did not harmonize Rev 20 with 2 Thess 1 where Paul states that all the wicked are destroyed and the righteous go into heaven. Why reign for a thousand years?

Harmonize Rev 11:18 with Rev 20. Revelation 11:18 states that when Christ comes he judges the dead and gives rewards to his servants the saints.

We both agree that the rapture will occur at Christ second coming and you agree that Rev 11:18 is the resurrection and the time that rewards are handed out. Right?

But a few verses before Revelation 11:18 it states that Christ reigns forever, not for a thousand years.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When the seventh angel sounds the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our Lord. This seventh trumpet is when most everyone on this discussion is arguing that the rapture takes place, right? Well notice at this seventh trumpet it states that Christ reigns forever and ever. Not a thousand years.

Again your interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts John 14:3 and Hebrews 11 of which both declare that the saints or elect of God are looking for a new city in heaven.

Again God will save a remnant of natural Israel, but not during the time you call a millennium, but will gather a remnant out of natural Israel at or right before his coming and then all Israel will be saved. All of Israel is the whole house of God, both Jews and Gentiles brought together to make one new man.

Here is another quote from you:

"The Millennium is not for us, or the wicked, but so that the whole house of Israel might be saved. Read up on Paul's writing on this and harmonize that with what Peter wrote."

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Paul never states that there will be a millennium were the whole house of Israel might be saved. The church is the whole house of Israel. Christ is the true Israel and the seed to whom the promises were made and all they who have faith in him are the children of Abraham.

Here is another quote:

"And you are wrong to say there are no people left after God's Wrath. People will be rare, but the meek will inherit the earth. According to Isaiah man will be as rare as all the gold of Ophir. According to Zechariah, ten men will grab the hem of one Jew's cloak and ask to go to God. Ezekiel spells out what the new rules will be in the Millennium for those people who live in it. Isaiah describes what it will be like for those people. It's in the Bible man."

Paul plainly declares in 2 Thess that at Christ coming God will destroy all that do not obey the gospel and all that do not know God. Now there goes all the wicked. Then he states that God will be glorified in his saints. There are all the righteous. Who is left? None but the resurrected righteous.

Jesus gives the same type of parables in Matt 13 and in Matt 24 he returns and gathers his elect from the four winds of heaven and in Matt 25 gathers all nations to him and casts the goats into everlasting fire, but all the shepp enter the kingdom. The sheep are all those for whom he laiud down his life in John 10:11, 15.


You draw scriptures out of the Old Testament as if Christ has not come. Scripture must be interpreted and read in the language type s that it uses. A lot of times scripture uses hyperbole or figurative language or poetry or symbolic or apocalyptic. You are taking all the scripture and making every scripture have to have a literal interpretation. This is why the Jews missed Christ first coming is because they were trying to interpret every scripture literally and did not see types and rituals, etc....

I have shown that the land promised to Abraham was a type of the heavenly country of which Abraham looked. If you want every scripture to have a literal fulfillment then you would have to do away with the New testament altogether because in the Old Testament the Priest were to offer sacrifices forever. They were to eat the Passover forever. The light in the temple was to burn forever. But we recognize that all this is fulfilled in Christ. The Old Testament word 'forever' is 'olam' and means until a better administration comes. Jesus is it man. I to used to argue from all that Old testament symbolical apocalyptic language of the prophets, until I realized it all looked to Christ and his people in a future kingdom.

Now as for your thousand years of Revelation 20 if you take this literally then you will not be resurrected unless you are beheaded for Jesus and you will not go in the first resurrection. But a thousand throughout scripture a lot of time means an undertermined amount of time.

Check out Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8. Now who would admit that God has a day? No one. We realize that he is not part of time, but time is a created thing. This is why when the seventh trumpet blows, there is time no longer. Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:


Hence Christ could not reign for a thousand years if time ceases to exist.


If you make Rev 20 speak of two resurrections with a thousand years in between then you contradict other scripture which speak of a resurrection of both the just and unjust at the same time. Therefore your interpretation is faulty.

Neh 8:18 and John 7:37 both use the term last day. Examine and see that these two verse use the term to mean a period of time each ending in a day.

Now examine these scriptures:

The resurrection of the just and unjust will be on the last day:

John 6:39
John 6:40
John 6:44
John 6:54
John 11:24
John 12:48

These resurrections will be at the same time:

Mt 13:38-43
Matt 13:48-50
Mt 24
and will be a single resurrection Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The book of Revelation is cloaked in symbolic apocalyptic language therefore cannot be interpreted as other parts of scripture. If you interpret it against Jesus's own words of John 5 and 6, then you set scripture against scripture and contradict scripture.

One more quote from you:

"We are not looking for a thousand year reign, but to be with Christ. That is the whole point of Hebrews 9:28."

To make my point I will state that you are reading into scripture things not there. You state that Hebrews 9:28 is speaking of us being with Christ and reigning with him for a thousand years, but this scripture mentions no such thing. You have read that into it.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."


Please e-mail me for this book and then after that we may debate.

quiet dove
Mar 12th 2009, 11:35 PM
The Bible declares it the last trump. This means that's it's the last trump to ever sound, irregardless if there are other types of trumpets. Even if the 7th trumpet in Revelation weren't the same as the last trump spoken of in this passage, this last trumpet in this passage will be the last trump to ever sound. There will be no more trumpet sounds after the last trump sounds, otherwise it wouldn't be classified as the last trump. Nowhere does the Word tell us that this is the last trumpet in a series of trumpets that may include other trumpets from an related series of other trumpet sounds.

Paul clearly defines this as the last trump. Wouldn't it be much better to just simply take Paul's word to heart instead of trying to make a doctrine fit around those words by claiming the last trump is not necessarily the last trumpet to ever sound, but instead it is the last trumpet in a series of various trumpet sounds, in which may include other unrelated series of trumpet sounds, when clearly the Scriptures declare that it is the last trump to ever sound? That sure seems like a lot of reading into the text things that are not even there.


Seriously, have you ever considered why Revelation never defines the 7th trumpet as the last trumpet? It's pretty simple. There is no need to. There are only 7 trumpets mentioned. If there were an 8th, a 9th, etc, then you can bet, they would have been mentioned. So obviously the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet. Putting 2 and 2 together then, obviously the last trump Paul spoke about, it is this very same 7th trumpet in Revelation. Why? Because they're both the last trumpet. There can't be more than one last trumpet, so this makes both of these trumpet sounds one and the same, IOW the last trump. This is simply Scripture interpreting Scripture...which is what Scripture is supposed to do.

One last thing I might remind you of. If you feel that this is the last trumpet in series of trumpet sounds, which may include other unrelated trumpet sounds, then it's your duty to show this with Scriptures, IOW, if this is the last in a certain series, then you should have no problem defining what is the first trumpet in that particular series of trumpet sounds. Afterall, it would be unreasonable to believe there to be a last trumpet, yet while not being able to show where Scriptures defines the first trumpet in that series. The only place I know of in the NT, where Scriptures defines the first and last trumpet in a series of trumpets, this would be in the book of Revelation. I apologize if my post comes off the wrong way. I simply feel it's important to present things in such a manner that might cause one to rethink things yet again. :)

It does matter what kind of trumpet it is, there are seven trumpets of judgement in Revelation, so the seventh one is the last trumpet of judgment in that series of trumpets.

Just like the last trumpet in Corinthians is the last trumpet for what it is for, to call the Church.

And I have shown with scripture, just as others have, that there is more support for trumpet sounds having a certain meaning, and also that there can be more than one last, because there are more than one sound and or meanings.

bibleman
Mar 12th 2009, 11:44 PM
I forgot to deal with this portion of Teleiosis's statement:


"And when the Bible says we will be raised up on the last day, No, it will be the last day for the Church."

...the last day means the last day in Nehemiah 8:18 and John 7:37. But Christ is the one who stated that it is the last day and he would be the furtherest thing from a simpleton.

Also for the past 2000 years the orthodox church has not found enough evidence in the scriptures for a thousand year reign. Since scripture no where contradicts itself, then to say that Rev 20 states a thousand years, after this age, is to contradict everything Christ stated. It contradicts what Paul wrote and what James wrote. Even John who wrote the Revelation concluded in 1 John 2:18 "It is the last time."

Now since no church council up through the history of the church affirmed a millennial kingdom after this one, nor any Reformers saw or affirmed one I guess they were all simpletons who thought that the last Day did not mean the last day.

I have showed scripture from Christ own mouth stating that the resurrections will be simultaneous, at the last day, at the end of the world, etc......

Again my challenge goes out. Show one scripture from the apostles or post-apostles up to 150 A.D. affirming that any taught a millennial reign of Christ and I will say I have been defeated.

The fact that Revelation 20 uses the term thousand is not conclusive seeing that it is symbolical and figurative throughout it's entirety.

By the way you are dispensational in your thinking. Historic pre-mill sees no difference between Israel and the church. In historic pre-mill the church is a continuation of Israel. In dispensationalism Israel and the church are seperate and a thousand years is necessary to fulfill all promises to the Israelites.

I will not result to name calling nor using derogatory terms against those I am debating with seeing that my arguments are sound. I to used to use the same arguments, as my opponent, for a millennium. I then had not understood that scripture has to be interpreted in light of it's usage or language characteristics. In other words if scripture speaks symbolically it is not to be interpreted literally. In our own language we use hyperbole, simile, figurative language, literal language, etc.......

When I say that it is raining cats and dogs, no one expects to look outside and see cats and dogs falling out of the sky. The Bible is the same way. It is written in everyday common language, therefore when Jesus says that he is the door, no one expects him to be made of wood, but instead they understand that he is pointing to the truth that he is the only way to God.

divaD
Mar 13th 2009, 03:01 AM
It does matter what kind of trumpet it is, there are seven trumpets of judgement in Revelation, so the seventh one is the last trumpet of judgment in that series of trumpets.

Just like the last trumpet in Corinthians is the last trumpet for what it is for, to call the Church.

And I have shown with scripture, just as others have, that there is more support for trumpet sounds having a certain meaning, and also that there can be more than one last, because there are more than one sound and or meanings.

I am not having any trouble taking Pauls words to heart, just not your understanding of them.



quiet dove, unfortunetly I don't always quite express myself in a clear to understand manner. There was no way that I was implying that you personally weren't taking Paul's words to heart. I was basically speaking in general, not actually speaking to anyone nor implying anything.

To be honest, I'll have to research a little more on the trumpets, in order to try and determine if there is more to this than meets the eye. But in the meantime, one thing has always perplexed me to no end in regards to the pre-trib view.

If Revelation ch 20 describes this resurrection as the first resurrection, then what resurrection number would the resurrection in 1 Cor 15/1 Thess 4, be numbered as? Obviously the resurrection in Rev ch 20 couldn't be the same resurrection spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor 15/1 Thess 4, correct?

There is no way that the first resurrection in Rev ch 20 would fit the pre-trib timeline of events. Verse 4 of Rev ch 20 would contradict any pre-trib position.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years


Everything in this verse would have had to occur after the trib.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Verse 5 is linked to verse 4. These 2 verses can't be seperated.

quiet dove
Mar 13th 2009, 03:25 AM
quiet dove, unfortunetly I don't always quite express myself in a clear to understand manner. There was no way that I was implying that you personally weren't taking Paul's words to heart. I was basically speaking in general, not actually speaking to anyone nor implying anything.

To be honest, I'll have to research a little more on the trumpets, in order to try and determine if there is more to this than meets the eye. But in the meantime, one thing has always perplexed me to no end in regards to the pre-trib view.

If Revelation ch 20 describes this resurrection as the first resurrection, then what resurrection number would the resurrection in 1 Cor 15/1 Thess 4, be numbered as? Obviously the resurrection in Rev ch 20 couldn't be the same resurrection spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor 15/1 Thess 4, correct?

There is no way that the first resurrection in Rev ch 20 would fit the pre-trib timeline of events. Verse 4 of Rev ch 20 would contradict any pre-trib position.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years


Everything in this verse would have had to occur after the trib.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Verse 5 is linked to verse 4. These 2 verses can't be seperated.

I edited my post so my apologies.

I agree that Rev 20:4-5 happen after the tribulation and are not separated.

I am not so sure that "first resurrection" is describing the "number" of, but rather it is describing the "type" of, because regardless of which one the rapture would be, there is not a second one mentioned, or third or any more, just this mention of "first". And we can see from those two verses that there is going to be a time concerning "the rest" after the thousand years.

The "type" would be the type that all in Christ have, as in resurrected to eternal life. Those of the rapture/resurrection, those after the trib/martyrs, and then those after the thousand years Rev 20:11 who face the Great White Throne judgment, and are subject to the second death(20:14)

I am going to do some research on "last day" before commenting on that. I know what I am thinking but would rather study some on it first just in case my thoughts are way out of whack.

David Taylor
Mar 13th 2009, 11:43 AM
I will not result to name calling nor using derogatory terms against those I am debating with

Excellent advice... much appreciated...this thread has been getting more and more heated and we need everyone to re-assess and take a similar approach when posting.

Thanks! :)

boangry
Mar 13th 2009, 12:32 PM
Heres how I weigh up verses in isolation.. such as rev 20:5 "This is the first resurrection"

1. There is no other way to be raised to eternal life other than by partaking in this resurrection which only occurs at the end of the trib period.There are no other ressurections for the believer to partake in!
or
2. this is the completion of the first resurrection at the end of the trib, Which began with Christ Resurrected from the dead then the church saints then the trib saints then the old testament saints. No more resurrection for believers after this.

I think both views are viable interpretations from isolation, therefore does not refute the other, But of course only one can possibly be right in light of scripture...

bosco
Mar 13th 2009, 07:20 PM
Heres how I weigh up verses in isolation.. such as rev 20:5 "This is the first resurrection"

1. There is no other way to be raised to eternal life other than by partaking in this resurrection which only occurs at the end of the trib period.There are no other ressurections for the believer to partake in!
or
2. this is the completion of the first resurrection at the end of the trib, Which began with Christ Resurrected from the dead then the church saints then the trib saints then the old testament saints. No more resurrection for believers after this.

I think both views are viable interpretations from isolation, therefore does not refute the other, But of course only one can possibly be right in light of scripture...

There is also an item worthy of consideration. During the thousand year reign, we see two items that indicate that corruptible people will be alive during that time.

1. We are said to be priests of God and Christ and will reign with him a thousand years. A priest makes intercession between one and another. We don't make intercession between Christ and God for Christ is God. I also see no reason to believe we make intercession between those who have already been made incorruptible. There must be others.
2. At the end of the thousand years, satan is let loose to deceive the nations again. Seeing we are made incorruptible as the return of Messiah, there must be people alive at the end who can be deceived.

Who are they? Folks who lived through the tribulation? A second chance for humanity? I can't say, I just believe they are.

Bosco

boangry
Mar 14th 2009, 10:36 AM
There is also an item worthy of consideration. During the thousand year reign, we see two items that indicate that corruptible people will be alive during that time.

1. We are said to be priests of God and Christ and will reign with him a thousand years. A priest makes intercession between one and another. We don't make intercession between Christ and God for Christ is God. I also see no reason to believe we make intercession between those who have already been made incorruptible. There must be others.
2. At the end of the thousand years, satan is let loose to deceive the nations again. Seeing we are made incorruptible as the return of Messiah, there must be people alive at the end who can be deceived.

Who are they? Folks who lived through the tribulation? A second chance for humanity? I can't say, I just believe they are.



I agree corruptible people will be in the millenium. People that are born in the millenium?

Who are they? Believing Gentiles who survive the trib populate the nations! the sinner shall be accursed and die a hundred yrs old.
Hence Christ will rule the nations with an iron sceptre as King of Kings.
A second chance for humanity? Just shows that even if Mesiah was here right now ruling with perfect righteousness and justice, with peace and prosperity, Rebellious man will still rise up against him and his people.
Makes it easy for the man of perdition I guess!

bosco
Mar 15th 2009, 05:50 AM
I agree corruptible people will be in the millenium. People that are born in the millenium?

Who are they? Believing Gentiles who survive the trib populate the nations! the sinner shall be accursed and die a hundred yrs old.
Hence Christ will rule the nations with an iron sceptre as King of Kings.
A second chance for humanity? Just shows that even if Mesiah was here right now ruling with perfect righteousness and justice, with peace and prosperity, Rebellious man will still rise up against him and his people.
Makes it easy for the man of perdition I guess!

Lots of questions about them, but they do appear to live during that time.

Bosco

DurbanDude
Mar 15th 2009, 02:16 PM
Hiya bibleman, I just noticed your post, my chance to join in :)


[quote=bibleman;2009850]I...the last day means the last day in Nehemiah 8:18 and John 7:37. But Christ is the one who stated that it is the last day and he would be the furtherest thing from a simpleton.

It cannot be the last day of life, because life will carry on after the Second Coming. It is therefore the last day of a certain age. To assume there will be no more significant ages for all eternity to come would be underestimating the creative nature of God. The phrase "last day" then has to be looked at in context, the last day of which age ? Obviously the context tells us which age is being referred to.



Also for the past 2000 years the orthodox church has not found enough evidence in the scriptures for a thousand year reign. Since scripture no where contradicts itself, then to say that Rev 20 states a thousand years, after this age, is to contradict everything Christ stated. It contradicts what Paul wrote and what James wrote. Even John who wrote the Revelation concluded in 1 John 2:18 "It is the last time."

The Orthodox church??




I have showed scripture from Christ own mouth stating that the resurrections will be simultaneous, at the last day, at the end of the world, etc......

Again my challenge goes out. Show one scripture from the apostles or post-apostles up to 150 A.D. affirming that any taught a millennial reign of Christ and I will say I have been defeated.



Rev 20 speaks of an age beyond the age of martyrdom of those who refuse the beast. The martyrs come alive and then rule, so the so-called current millenium cannot apply to the future martyrs who refuse the mark. They come alive, and then rule. These verses cannot be interpreted as applying to any 70AD event. The 1000 year period, whether it is literal or a figurative long period, STARTS at the resurrection of the martyrs:

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



When I say that it is raining cats and dogs, no one expects to look outside and see cats and dogs falling out of the sky. The Bible is the same way. It is written in everyday common language, therefore when Jesus says that he is the door, no one expects him to be made of wood, but instead they understand that he is pointing to the truth that he is the only way to God


True, but this is where I feel amills go wrong, often interpreting symbolism when there is none, taking the fact that the bible is symbolic too far.