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RZ06
Jan 21st 2009, 07:55 PM
I just finished Genesis and while I was reading it, I would jot down questions that came up. I'll be talking w/ my pastor about it, but thought I'd ask on here, too.

I've mentioned this question before, but I still feel I don't have a concrete answer. I feel the post I made was more so an argument between people, so I will ask it again.

1. Why are the Sumerian tales very similar? Their literature is hymns, proverbs, poems, and epic myths. Also, there genealogies with the Kings lives are very long just like how the lives were long before the biblical flood happened.

I mean, how did they (Mesopotamians, Akkadian account, and Sumerians) all know to think about a flood happening when it was before their time?

Someone said that they would know about it b/c Noah's family passed the tales along, but if that were the case, then why wouldn't all the tales be the same and not have pagan tales mixed in? Considering oral tradition was very important. Not to mention, the Babylonians don't have the rainbow as part of their flood story.

2. I noticed Gen 26:34 and Gen 36:2-3 list different wives for Esau.

In Gen 26:36, it states he married Judith and Basemath, who were both Pagans, and then also married Mahalath, who was part of the family line (sister of Nebaioth).

In Gen 36:2-3, it states he married Adah, Oholibamah, and Basemath and states that Basemath was part of the family line (sister of Nebaioth).

:confused

Walstib
Jan 22nd 2009, 12:59 AM
Hi RZ06,

For your first question there is a post in another forum here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=155042) ... looks like you started it... most people that would answer here will have answered there. Posting the same question in multiple forums is not encouraged.

For your second question I am impressed with your note taking skills. I don't think most people would notice that on a casual read through. Most find this info on a "list of supposed discrepancies"

That said I don't see an issue. First one the Hittites he married, second the Canaanites he married. What it looks like to me.

Peace,
Joe

RZ06
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:19 AM
Hi RZ06,

For your first question there is a post in another forum here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=155042) ... looks like you started it... most people that would answer here will have answered there. Posting the same question in multiple forums is not encouraged.

For your second question I am impressed with your note taking skills. I don't think most people would notice that on a casual read through. Most find this info on a "list of supposed discrepancies"

That said I don't see an issue. First one the Hittites he married, second the Canaanites he married. What it looks like to me.

Peace,
Joe



Yes, I did start it as I mentioned it in this thread, but I don't feel it was really answered. Also, there are questions I brought up in regards to if Noah's family passed it along...I guess I will just have to wait to talk to the pastor about it.

I guess I could of posted these two in that thread, so I apologize if that's the case. To me, I thought it was a separate issue, but I can see how it wouldn't be considered that.

Walstib
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:33 AM
Hi RZ06,

No worries and don't give up, no apologies needed. Some threads last for a long time and someone may show up with what will bring it into focus for you. I certainly did not mean to discourage you from searching for answers here.

Thinking about it I would say it's like the telephone game. Siting in the circle whispering a statement in the ear of a person and they pass it on. Never seems to come out the same as it started. Noah tells this person, they tell another, and it gets corrupted over time. I have trust the original is preserved in the bible.

Your other question would have made a fine thread of it's own here. ;) My answer was kind of lame, I'll give it some more thought.

Peace,
Joe

RZ06
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:42 AM
Hi RZ06,

No worries and don't give up, no apologies needed. Some threads last for a long time and someone may show up with what will bring it into focus for you. I certainly did not mean to discourage you from searching for answers here.

Thinking about it I would say it's like the telephone game. Siting in the circle whispering a statement in the ear of a person and they pass it on. Never seems to come out the same as it started. Noah tells this person, they tell another, and it gets corrupted over time. I have trust the original is preserved in the bible.

Your other question would have made a fine thread of it's own here. ;) My answer was kind of lame, I'll give it some more thought.

Peace,
Joe

No, you were right. I guess I was "excited" after just finishing and didn't think about my other thread and just made this one since I had another question :)

But yes, a poster said it was Noah's family passing the tale along, and so it just boggles my mind why the stories aren't exactly the same and why the rainbow isn't mentioned. Did they just want to incorporate their beliefs as they refused to believe in God? And if so, I wonder why b/c they are to have come from Adam & Eve, technically and if oral tradition was so treasured, you would think people would take heed to what is said.... :hmm:

The Bible did mention that there is debate to whether it was a global or local flood, but what would that matter? We are all to have come from Noah's line, right? So, what does a local vs. global flood have to do with the different flood stories? There shouldn't of been anyone else left living after the flood as God is said to have wiped out man kind.

About his wives, I have read that Basemath and Mahalath are probably the same person, but that doesn't make sense b/c Basemath is supposed to have been a pagan (according to Gen 26:34-35) where as Mahalath is Ishmael's daughter, according to Gen28:9 and states he married her to please Jacob & Rachel, therefore, Mahalath wouldn't be a pagan.

MacGyver
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:29 PM
1. Why are the Sumerian tales very similar? Their literature is hymns, proverbs, poems, and epic myths. Also, there genealogies with the Kings lives are very long just like how the lives were long before the biblical flood happened.

I mean, how did they (Mesopotamians, Akkadian account, and Sumerians) all know to think about a flood happening when it was before their time?

Someone said that they would know about it b/c Noah's family passed the tales along, but if that were the case, then why wouldn't all the tales be the same and not have pagan tales mixed in? Considering oral tradition was very important. Not to mention, the Babylonians don't have the rainbow as part of their flood story.
There are lots of Christian beliefs that are very similar to various beliefs from other religions. Here is the greatest explanation I have ever read concerning this topic..

Now, the phenomenon, admitted on all hands, is this:—that great portion of what is generally received as Christian truth, is in its rudiments or in its separate parts to be found in heathen philosophies and religions. For instance, the doctrine of a Trinity is found both in the East and in the West; so is the ceremony of washing; so is the rite of sacrifice. The doctrine of the Divine Word is Platonic; the doctrine of the Incarnation is Indian; of a divine kingdom is Judaic; of Angels and demons is Magian; the connexion of sin with the body is Gnostic; celibacy is known to Bonze and Talapoin; a sacerdotal order is Egyptian; the idea of a new birth is Chinese and Eleusinian; belief in sacramental virtue is Pythagorean; and honours to the dead are a polytheism. Such is the general nature of the fact before us; Mr. Milman argues from it,—"These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian:" we, on the contrary, prefer to say, "these things are in Christianity, therefore they are not heathen." That is, we prefer to say, and we think that Scripture bears us out in saying, that from the beginning the Moral Governor of the world has scattered the seeds of truth far and wide over its extent; that these have variously taken root, and grown up as in the wilderness, wild plants indeed but living; and hence that, as the inferior animals have {232} tokens of an immaterial principle in them, yet have not souls, so the philosophies and religions of men have their life in certain true ideas, though they are not directly divine. [John Henry Newman Milman's View of Christianity 9]

Benaiah
Jan 23rd 2009, 12:14 AM
But yes, a poster said it was Noah's family passing the tale along, and so it just boggles my mind why the stories aren't exactly the same and why the rainbow isn't mentioned. Did they just want to incorporate their beliefs as they refused to believe in God? And if so, I wonder why b/c they are to have come from Adam & Eve, technically and if oral tradition was so treasured, you would think people would take heed to what is said....

All that perished in the flood were from Adam and Eve too. The same ones who God described as filled with violence and whose every thought was evil.
Apparently they did not listen to any teaching passed down from their fore bearers either.


About his wives, I have read that Basemath and Mahalath are probably the same person, but that doesn't make sense b/c Basemath is supposed to have been a pagan (according to Gen 26:34-35) where as Mahalath is Ishmael's daughter, according to Gen28:9 and states he married her to please Jacob & Rachel, therefore, Mahalath wouldn't be a pagan.

Except your overlooking the fact that Rachel herself had been a pagan when Jacob married her. Remember that her father was Laban.


Gen 29:5 Then he said to them, "Do you know Laban the son of Nahor?" And they said, "We know him."
Gen 29:6 So he said to them, "Is he well?" And they said, "He is well. And look, his daughter Rachel is coming with the sheep."



Gen 31:19 Now Laban had gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel had stolen the household idols that were her father's.


Gen 31:30 "And now you have surely gone because you greatly long for your father's house, but why did you steal my gods?"


And look at Jacobs instruction to his family and those who came ith him from Labans.


Gen 35:2 And Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, "Put away the foreign gods that are among you, purify yourselves, and change your garments.

DIZZY
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:27 AM
I just finished Genesis and while I was reading it, I would jot down questions that came up. I'll be talking w/ my pastor about it, but thought I'd ask on here, too.

I've mentioned this question before, but I still feel I don't have a concrete answer. I feel the post I made was more so an argument between people, so I will ask it again.

1. Why are the Sumerian tales very similar? Their literature is hymns, proverbs, poems, and epic myths. Also, there genealogies with the Kings lives are very long just like how the lives were long before the biblical flood happened.

I mean, how did they (Mesopotamians, Akkadian account, and Sumerians) all know to think about a flood happening when it was before their time?

Someone said that they would know about it b/c Noah's family passed the tales along, but if that were the case, then why wouldn't all the tales be the same and not have pagan tales mixed in? Considering oral tradition was very important. Not to mention, the Babylonians don't have the rainbow as part of their flood story.

2. I noticed Gen 26:34 and Gen 36:2-3 list different wives for Esau.

In Gen 26:36, it states he married Judith and Basemath, who were both Pagans, and then also married Mahalath, who was part of the family line (sister of Nebaioth).

In Gen 36:2-3, it states he married Adah, Oholibamah, and Basemath and states that Basemath was part of the family line (sister of Nebaioth).

:confused

Hi there I hope this information helps to answer your questions.

Genesis 28:8-9
8 Also Esau saw that the daughters of Canaan did not please his father Isaac. 9 So Esau went to Ishmael and took Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael, Abrahamís son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife in addition to the wives he had.


Adah also means basemath
Oholibamah also means Judith
Basemath also means Mahalath

So Esau's three wives were Basemath 1, Oholibamah and Basemathe 2.

RZ06
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:48 AM
There are lots of Christian beliefs that are very similar to various beliefs from other religions. Here is the greatest explanation I have ever read concerning this topic..

Now, the phenomenon, admitted on all hands, is this:óthat great portion of what is generally received as Christian truth, is in its rudiments or in its separate parts to be found in heathen philosophies and religions. For instance, the doctrine of a Trinity is found both in the East and in the West; so is the ceremony of washing; so is the rite of sacrifice. The doctrine of the Divine Word is Platonic; the doctrine of the Incarnation is Indian; of a divine kingdom is Judaic; of Angels and demons is Magian; the connexion of sin with the body is Gnostic; celibacy is known to Bonze and Talapoin; a sacerdotal order is Egyptian; the idea of a new birth is Chinese and Eleusinian; belief in sacramental virtue is Pythagorean; and honours to the dead are a polytheism. Such is the general nature of the fact before us; Mr. Milman argues from it,ó"These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian:" we, on the contrary, prefer to say, "these things are in Christianity, therefore they are not heathen." That is, we prefer to say, and we think that Scripture bears us out in saying, that from the beginning the Moral Governor of the world has scattered the seeds of truth far and wide over its extent; that these have variously taken root, and grown up as in the wilderness, wild plants indeed but living; and hence that, as the inferior animals have {232} tokens of an immaterial principle in them, yet have not souls, so the philosophies and religions of men have their life in certain true ideas, though they are not directly divine. [John Henry Newman Milman's View of Christianity 9]

My history Bible basically wrote something similar like that and while it makes sense, I guess I'm still not fully satisfied with that answer or any that have been given :lol: I mean, it's not that huge of a deal that my faith depends on it, but I just want a concrete answer and I suppose there really is no 100% answer b/c all we can do is speculate based on historical information they have found. Also, maybe I'd have to learn more about each group of people who have similar tales to really comprehend their culture and why they would have those tales :hmm:



Except your overlooking the fact that Rachel herself had been a pagan when Jacob married her. Remember that her father was Laban.

And look at Jacobs instruction to his family and those who came ith him from Labans.

True...I got the pagan idea singled out b/c the one study bible I was reading, pointed it out (I read two at the same time- historical one and a normal study one). But your post and the one below that I quoted helps.


Hi there I hope this information helps to answer your questions.

Genesis 28:8-9
8 Also Esau saw that the daughters of Canaan did not please his father Isaac. 9 So Esau went to Ishmael and took Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael, Abrahamís son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife in addition to the wives he had.


Adah also means basemath
Oholibamah also means Judith
Basemath also means Mahalath

So Esau's three wives were Basemath 1, Oholibamah and Basemathe 2.

DIZZY
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:07 AM
No, you were right. I guess I was "excited" after just finishing and didn't think about my other thread and just made this one since I had another question :)

But yes, a poster said it was Noah's family passing the tale along, and so it just boggles my mind why the stories aren't exactly the same and why the rainbow isn't mentioned. Did they just want to incorporate their beliefs as they refused to believe in God? And if so, I wonder why b/c they are to have come from Adam & Eve, technically and if oral tradition was so treasured, you would think people would take heed to what is said.... :hmm:

The Bible did mention that there is debate to whether it was a global or local flood, but what would that matter? We are all to have come from Noah's line, right? So, what does a local vs. global flood have to do with the different flood stories? There shouldn't of been anyone else left living after the flood as God is said to have wiped out man kind.

About his wives, I have read that Basemath and Mahalath are probably the same person, but that doesn't make sense b/c Basemath is supposed to have been a pagan (according to Gen 26:34-35) where as Mahalath is Ishmael's daughter, according to Gen28:9 and states he married her to please Jacob & Rachel, therefore, Mahalath wouldn't be a pagan.


Hi RZ06,
Just thought I'd help to clear things up here if I can add my two cents worth.

After the flood God told Noah and his family to be fruitful and multiply on the earth. Genesis 9

Now Noah and his family multiplied all over the earth they. Then they came to a place called Shinar where they built a tower and God was not happy with them so He confused their language and they went their seperate ways.

When they went their seperate ways each one took the stories with them and this is where all the false religions started from Babel.

As one poster said it is like a chinese whisper but before it gets to the last person so much has been changed and added to the story.

All the peoples around the world started at the same point, and they went out with the truth but Satan infiltrated it with a lie here and there, so now there are so many reigions that it confuses people and they don't know the truth until there eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit.

It does not matter if the religion being taught is 99 percent right it is still 100 percent wrong.