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BCF
Jan 21st 2009, 11:09 PM
1stPeter 2:21-25,

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

any thoughts

God Bless,

Dave

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:55 AM
1stPeter 2:21-25,

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

any thoughts

God Bless,

Dave

just my two cents

i think dead to sin means that because of our new nature sin is not what makes us feel good or what satisfies us. We are alive to righteousness meaning righteousness is our new appetite.

I have personally experienced this. Upon my conversion i immediately lost the taste to listen to some of the "worldly" rap artists that i used to balst in my car stereo. Now, when i listen to them, it just makes me sick. i think thats what it means to be dead to sin

it can also have a double meaning, speaking of the old man dying in Christ i guess

crossnote
Jan 22nd 2009, 06:11 AM
1stPeter 2:21-25,

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

any thoughts

God Bless,

Dave

Romans 6 will shed much light on this topic. It appears that we are dead to sin in that we have been buried with him and because we are no longer under law but under grace;sin has no more power over us. On the other hand we are still capable of presenting our members to sin rather than to God and that is where the entanglement in sin happens. Read Romans 6 and see what you think.

BCF
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:18 PM
Romans 6 will shed much light on this topic. It appears that we are dead to sin in that we have been buried with him and because we are no longer under law but under grace;sin has no more power over us. On the other hand we are still capable of presenting our members to sin rather than to God and that is where the entanglement in sin happens. Read Romans 6 and see what you think.

Yeah but.....where in scripture does it say that grace took away sin?

I can see in scripture how grace took the place of the law, but where does it say that grace took the place of sin?

God Bless,

Dave

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:02 PM
Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God.

What does other Scripture confirm?

Whoever is born of God does not sin. Whoever is born of God CANNOT sin.

BroRog
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:43 PM
1stPeter 2:21-25,

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

any thoughts

God Bless,

Dave

I don't think Peter is saying that we never sin. Rather, I believe he is saying that our sins are no longer the issue.

If we take our lesson from the first century Jewish experience the situation goes something like this.

The Bible teachers of the first century were telling the people that if they could keep the law, God would declare them to be "in the right." But in fact, however, all the animal sacrifices did was remind them that they were NOT "in the right." These sacrifices were a tiresome and constant reminder that they were constantly in the wrong.

Along comes Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross. Due to his sacrifice on the cross, God was offering the people the chance to be "in the right" if they would look to the cross and admit that what Jesus got was what they deserved. Anyone among the people who agreed with that, God declared "in the right."

Now that Jesus bore our sins on the tree, the issue of our sins is no longer a live issue. Our sins are a moot point now. And consequently, now that our sins are a moot point, we are free to live for righteousness sake. We are no longer burdened under the heavy load of the animal sacrifices that constantly reminded us that we were "IN THE WRONG." Now, apart from that system, we have God's declaration "in the right" because we believe God and take him at his word.

Peter is saying, "now that Christ has dealt with your sins, now that they are a moot point, you are free to live like Christ and you should follow in his footsteps. Anyone who was able to free you from your guilt, bring you God's declaration of being "in the right", forgive your sins, and set you free is worthy to follow. So follow him and act like he did.

RogerW
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:00 AM
1stPeter 2:21-25,

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

any thoughts

God Bless,

Dave

Greetings Dave,

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

'My little children.' This epistle is addressed to all believers. 'I write unto you, that you sin not.' John does not hold out the possibility that any man can be totally free from sin. This would be contrary to his own words in 1Jo 1:8-10 and contrary to Scripture. But he is saying, 'I write this to you that you might not live in sin, indulge the flesh, walk in disobedience and behave like the world of unregenerate man.' The will of God is our sanctification and holiness in spirit, word and deed. The true grace of God in a man's heart does not condone or excuse his sin, but condemns it and gives him a continuous desire to be like Christ and glorify his Lord. True believers mourn their sins, confess them and seek to avoid them.

'And if any man sin...' as every man does, even everyone that walks in light and fellowship with God, believes on Christ an dis justified by His blood. As much as we hate sin and seek to avoid it, we are still in this flesh and in this world (Ro 7:18-25).

Under no circumstances does a believer excuse sin, justify it, or permit it to go unjudged and unconfessed simply because it is atoned for by Christ. But we do have an Advocate with the Father, a great High Priest, who makes intercession for us, pleads for us whose sins have been laid on Him and has made full satisfaction for them; therefore, our sins should not be laid to our charge. He is the Advocate 'with the Father', against whom all sin is committed and to whom satisfaction is made. We would not have need for an Advocate if we could never sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

sheina maidle
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:09 AM
Greetings Dave,

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

'My little children.' This epistle is addressed to all believers. 'I write unto you, that you sin not.' John does not hold out the possibility that any man can be totally free from sin. This would be contrary to his own words in 1Jo 1:8-10 and contrary to Scripture. But he is saying, 'I write this to you that you might not live in sin, indulge the flesh, walk in disobedience and behave like the world of unregenerate man.' The will of God is our sanctification and holiness in spirit, word and deed. The true grace of God in a man's heart does not condone or excuse his sin, but condemns it and gives him a continuous desire to be like Christ and glorify his Lord. True believers mourn their sins, confess them and seek to avoid them.

'And if any man sin...' as every man does, even everyone that walks in light and fellowship with God, believes on Christ an dis justified by His blood. As much as we hate sin and seek to avoid it, we are still in this flesh and in this world (Ro 7:18-25).

Under no circumstances does a believer excuse sin, justify it, or permit it to go unjudged and unconfessed simply because it is atoned for by Christ. But we do have an Advocate with the Father, a great High Priest, who makes intercession for us, pleads for us whose sins have been laid on Him and has made full satisfaction for them; therefore, our sins should not be laid to our charge. He is the Advocate 'with the Father', against whom all sin is committed and to whom satisfaction is made. We would not have need for an Advocate if we could never sin.

Many Blessings,
RW
Amen! It's amazing how many on this forum and other forums teach that we have no sin nature...some even believe that we can attain sinless perfectionism in this lifetime.

Sirus
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:13 AM
I've never even met one of those on a forum. Can you point me to some posts or threads or something? I hear they exist but......?

sheina maidle
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:23 AM
I've never even met one of those on a forum. Can you point me to some posts or threads or something? I hear they exist but......?
Deja-vu Sirus! Listing posts is not necessary...maybe a mirror would help?

Sirus
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:31 AM
Nope, not here!

Can you point me to some posts or threads or something? I hear they exist but......?

crossnote
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:34 AM
Yeah but.....where in scripture does it say that grace took away sin?

I can see in scripture how grace took the place of the law, but where does it say that grace took the place of sin?

God Bless,

Dave

Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. Jn 1:29 Jn 1:36.

Grace doesn't take the place of the law, grace has alway been since the first promise to Adam and Eve Gen 3:15. The law was added that sin may be sin for what it is.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 6:14-15)

BCF
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:40 PM
Whoever is born of God does not sin. Whoever is born of God CANNOT sin.

I do not find this in scripture....can you show me where this is?

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:54 PM
I don't think Peter is saying that we never sin. Rather, I believe he is saying that our sins are no longer the issue.

If we take our lesson from the first century Jewish experience the situation goes something like this.

The Bible teachers of the first century were telling the people that if they could keep the law, God would declare them to be "in the right." But in fact, however, all the animal sacrifices did was remind them that they were NOT "in the right." These sacrifices were a tiresome and constant reminder that they were constantly in the wrong.

Along comes Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross. Due to his sacrifice on the cross, God was offering the people the chance to be "in the right" if they would look to the cross and admit that what Jesus got was what they deserved. Anyone among the people who agreed with that, God declared "in the right."

Now that Jesus bore our sins on the tree, the issue of our sins is no longer a live issue. Our sins are a moot point now. And consequently, now that our sins are a moot point, we are free to live for righteousness sake. We are no longer burdened under the heavy load of the animal sacrifices that constantly reminded us that we were "IN THE WRONG." Now, apart from that system, we have God's declaration "in the right" because we believe God and take him at his word.

Peter is saying, "now that Christ has dealt with your sins, now that they are a moot point, you are free to live like Christ and you should follow in his footsteps. Anyone who was able to free you from your guilt, bring you God's declaration of being "in the right", forgive your sins, and set you free is worthy to follow. So follow him and act like he did.


I agree with what you are saying for the most part. But....I believe that we can live like Jesus in and through Our Spirits, when we are walking in the Spirit. But I do not believe that we can live like Jesus did in the flesh, with our flesh.

Jesus.......when He walked this earth in the flesh, He was always walking in the Spirit. Jesus although being in the flesh, never followed His flesh. I do not see in scripture anywhere where this is taught by anyone. Not by Paul, Peter, James, Jude, Matthew, John, Mark, Luke, or any of the prophets. I do find scripture that says that we should follow Jesus, and be like Jesus....but in my opinion...those scriptures are talking about being like Jesus in the Spirit....not in the flesh. We cannot go without sin by following our flesh, and we can never be following the Spirit all the time.

This is where I have my disagreement, simply b/c I just do not see such a thing being taught in scripture by anyone.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:44 PM
Greetings Dave,

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

'My little children.' This epistle is addressed to all believers. 'I write unto you, that you sin not.' John does not hold out the possibility that any man can be totally free from sin. This would be contrary to his own words in 1Jo 1:8-10 and contrary to Scripture. But he is saying, 'I write this to you that you might not live in sin, indulge the flesh, walk in disobedience and behave like the world of unregenerate man.' The will of God is our sanctification and holiness in spirit, word and deed. The true grace of God in a man's heart does not condone or excuse his sin, but condemns it and gives him a continuous desire to be like Christ and glorify his Lord. True believers mourn their sins, confess them and seek to avoid them.

'And if any man sin...' as every man does, even everyone that walks in light and fellowship with God, believes on Christ an dis justified by His blood. As much as we hate sin and seek to avoid it, we are still in this flesh and in this world (Ro 7:18-25).

Under no circumstances does a believer excuse sin, justify it, or permit it to go unjudged and unconfessed simply because it is atoned for by Christ. But we do have an Advocate with the Father, a great High Priest, who makes intercession for us, pleads for us whose sins have been laid on Him and has made full satisfaction for them; therefore, our sins should not be laid to our charge. He is the Advocate 'with the Father', against whom all sin is committed and to whom satisfaction is made. We would not have need for an Advocate if we could never sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi RW,

I agree totally. If we could not sin as some say scripture teaches. Why would we need an Advocate for sin.?

This is why I cannot get a grasp of what they are saying.

God Bless,

Dave

sheina maidle
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:55 PM
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

This verse does not teach sinless perfection. It is speaking here of the habitual practice of known sinful acts. The true believer's actions will conform to the character of his true father, either God or Satan. The person born of God will reflect this in his behavior. This verse is not talking about an act of sin but a way of life of sin. If this verse were speaking of an act of sin, then nobody could be saved.

BCF
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:43 PM
Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. Jn 1:29 Jn 1:36.

Grace doesn't take the place of the law, grace has alway been since the first promise to Adam and Eve Gen 3:15. The law was added that sin may be sin for what it is.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 6:14-15)



I don't know.....we may be saying the same thing here, just from a different angle.

It is my understanding from scripture that Our Lord Jesus became the law, which is why He says in Matthew 5:17,

"5. Think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

In Romans 3:21 Paul writes,

"21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets."

What I have come to believe here is that Paul is saying that the righteousness of God does not depend on keeping the Law that was given to Moses, which was the Mosaic Law. But what it did depend on is that Faith in the fact that Jesus Christ fulfilled all those laws for us. We can find evidence of his in the next few verses that Paul writes in Romans. Here in Romans 22-23 Paul writes this,

"22. Even the righteousness of God which by faith of (in) Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

This what Paul writes tells me that all (ungodly and the religious) sin and keep falling short of God's glory. My take on what Paul says, tells me that all humans need a Savior. Which is just what Jesus was, and is just what God provided freely by God's grace through Jesus Christ.

We can find evidence of this through the words of Paul in Romans 3:27, where he writes this:

"27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."

Here Paul flat out tells us that nobody has done anything or could do anything accept....have faith. Faith in what....the law? No. Faith in the fact that Jesus Christ came to fulfill those laws for us. (Romans 3:21)

Paul then goes on to teach in Romans 3:31 this:

"31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

How do we establish the law? By having Faith in Jesus Christ. In order for Jesus to establish the law, He would of had to become the law in the flesh in order to do so.

God gave the law in the OT to help those folks see their need for God's grace. God never intended for people to get right with Him for there sin in the Garden, by keeping the law. Only Jesus had all the requirements to do such a thing for God. Which is why I believe Jesus said what He said in Matthew 5:17.

With all of us falling short of the glory of God like Paul writes in Romans 22-23, I find it imposable for any of us to prove through scripture that we do not sin.

As Paul writes in Romans 3:10-18:

"10. As it is written , there is none righteous, no , not one: 11. There is none who understands; 12. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one. 13. Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit; The poison of asps is under their lips; 14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. 15. Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16. Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17. And the way of peace they have not known, 18. There is no fear of God before their eyes."

I can't see how one who claims that they cannot sin, b/c they are righteous, b/c they are born again, and know God. Simple does not have any fear of the awesome power of Our Lord God.

I do not mean to put anyone down and what one believes. But scripture is scripture, and Paul makes it pretty plain and simple. Unless I am reading what Paul is writing incorrectly, and if I am.....one needs to show me how through scripture.

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:59 PM
As Paul writes in Romans 3:10-18:

"10. As it is written , there is none righteous, no , not one: 11. There is none who understands; 12. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one. 13. Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit; The poison of asps is under their lips; 14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. 15. Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16. Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17. And the way of peace they have not known, 18. There is no fear of God before their eyes."

I can't see how one who claims that they cannot sin, b/c they are righteous, b/c they are born again, and know God. Simple does not have any fear of the awesome power of Our Lord God.


Paul is expressing the natural, wretched state of all mankind in Rom. 3:10-18, whether Jew or Gentile, “for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,” as he states in verse 23.

Thank God, this is not a state anyone need remain in! Paul goes on in verses 24, 25 and 26 to present the plan of salvation, mankind’s deliverance from their sinful state.

Paul said in Romans 6:20, “For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.” When it comes to sinners, there is none righteous, no not one, that includes those professing to be sinning Christians....

“For as by one man’s [Adam] disobedience many were made sinners [for all inherited his sinful nature], so by the obedience of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.” Rom. 5:19.

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 04:27 AM
“For as by one man’s [Adam] disobedience many were made sinners [for all inherited his sinful nature], so by the obedience of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.” Rom. 5:19.

Yes my friend. This statement from Paul is true and I believe. But one cannot be made righteous without faith in Jesus Christ. And one does not have faith in Jesus, one cannot walk in the Spirit. And if one is not walking in the Spirit, one is walking in sin.

This is my point my friend. We cannot be walking in the Spirit of Jesus Christ 24/7 of our life. Non of the disciples did.....Paul did not either. So how are we suppose to expect to do something that they who were with Our Lord while He was here could not do themselves?

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Jan 24th 2009, 05:02 AM
Yes my friend. This statement from Paul is true and I believe. But one cannot be made righteous without faith in Jesus Christ. And one does not have faith in Jesus, one cannot walk in the Spirit. And if one is not walking in the Spirit, one is walking in sin.

This is my point my friend. We cannot be walking in the Spirit of Jesus Christ 24/7 of our life. Non of the disciples did.....Paul did not either. So how are we suppose to expect to do something that they who were with Our Lord while He was here could not do themselves?

God Bless,

Dave

I'm sorry that you may struggle with sin, and that you don't believe that God has a better plan of Salvation. There's not much I can say or do to help you. I've been on these forums for a while now and have given scripture upon scripture, but to no avail. That isn't going to stop me, because the truth is still the truth.

I John 3 describes what a true Christian is, and how they live. Holiness, righteousness, and godly living is commanded by Almighty God through His Word. Anything short of holiness is sin, and sin cannot enter into heaven.

The Bible speaks about the end time and sin:

Mt 24:12 And because iniquity [sin] shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work [commit] iniquity [sin].

Matthew 7:23 is pretty sobering.

2Ti 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity [sin].

Those who are Christ's have departed [separated themselves] from sin completely.

Paul had total and complete victory over sin, there are just misinterpreted passages that makes people think he was bound by sin, but he truly wasn't. Each passage can be explained in its proper context.

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 06:51 AM
1stPeter 2:21-25,

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

any thoughts

God Bless,

Dave

Hi Dave,

In order to correctly understand this passage, we need to back up one verse in order to see what the word “this” in verse 21 refers to:

1 Peter 2:20. For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
21. For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
22. WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
23. and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24. and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
25. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls. (NASB, 1995)

According to this passage of Scripture, we are called by God to do what is right even if that means suffering for it and patiently enduring the suffering, thereby finding favor with God. Doing what is right does not include sinning. Peter goes on to remind us, as did Paul in Romans 6, that Christ died on the cross that we might die to sin and live to righteousness, and he quotes from Isa. 53:5 to confirm the truth of what he is teaching. Peter goes on to write that we who in past time were “continually straying like sheep,” have returned to Christ, “the Shepherd and Guardian of [our] souls.”

There are, of course, Christians who are still straying like sheep; Christians who believe in Christ and the cross, but who have not died with Christ. I have never seen a dead man commit a sin of any kind.

Thank you for reading my post. May God bless you!

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 07:10 AM
Greetings Dave,

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

'My little children.' This epistle is addressed to all believers. 'I write unto you, that you sin not.' John does not hold out the possibility that any man can be totally free from sin. This would be contrary to his own words in 1Jo 1:8-10 and contrary to Scripture….
Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,

I disagree with you. The First Epistle of John is NOT addressed to all believers; it is addressed to a unique community of believers who were very confused.

1 John 1:1. What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
2. and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3. what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
God Is Light
5. This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and ye} walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7. but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. (NASB, 1995)

Understanding the beliefs of the people to whom John is writing this letter is of paramount importance to the correct interpretation of it. In vv. 1-3, John is refuting the concept held by these people, who were very confused and held to beliefs very different from the beliefs of the Jews to whom Jesus ministered and of the Jews and Gentiles to whom Paul ministered and wrote, that Jesus did not really come in the flesh. John writes in the first personal plural very much as Bible commentators do today, and he writes to these people that he has personally not only heard and seen Jesus, he has even looked at Him and touched him with his own hands! He really did come in the flesh!

The word “we” in 1 John 1.8 is rhetorical. John is not saying that he is a sinner. The sin that he is referring to in v. 8 is the concept of sin itself, a concept that many of these very confused believers rejected as a false concept. The sins that he is referring to in v. 9 are the sins that all people have actually committed. John is telling them that they must confess their sins in order to be forgiven and to be cleansed from all their unrighteousness. The sins that he is referring to in verse 10 are the sins that they themselves have committed in spite of their denial of having sinned.

In other words, John is writing here to a group of very confused believers, many of whom did not believe that the concept of sin is a true concept. In verse 8, he is arguing that sin is a reality and that all people are guilty of it. In verse 9 he is arguing for the necessity for all people to confess their sins. In verse 9 he is countering their unstated argument that they themselves have not sinned. Therefore, the sins being discussed here are pre-conversion sins rather than post-conversions sins. Post-conversion sins are addressed, however, in many other passages in the New Testament.

Thank you for reading my post. May God bless you!

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 04:13 PM
The word “we” in 1 John 1.8 is rhetorical. John is not saying that he is a sinner. The sin that he is referring to in v. 8 is the concept of sin itself, a concept that many of these very confused believers rejected as a false concept.

If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself. Even Paul states that he had sin wihtin him.



The sins that he is referring to in v. 9 are the sins that all people have actually committed. John is telling them that they must confess their sins in order to be forgiven and to be cleansed from all their unrighteousness. The sins that he is referring to in verse 10 are the sins that they themselves have committed in spite of their denial of having sinned.


He is stating that those who confess their sins will have them forgiven. As for being cleansed from all unrighteousness, what do you think the word "all" means?

In verse 10, it confirms Pauls in saying that all have sinned.



In other words, John is writing here to a group of very confused believers, many of whom did not believe that the concept of sin is a true concept. In verse 8, he is arguing that sin is a reality and that all people are guilty of it. In verse 9 he is arguing for the necessity for all people to confess their sins. In verse 9 he is countering their unstated argument that they themselves have not sinned. Therefore, the sins being discussed here are pre-conversion sins rather than post-conversions sins. Post-conversion sins are addressed, however, in many other passages in the New Testament.

Thank you for reading my post. May God bless you!



I would love to see the text where post-conversion sins are addressed.

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 04:16 PM
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

This verse does not teach sinless perfection. It is speaking here of the habitual practice of known sinful acts. The true believer's actions will conform to the character of his true father, either God or Satan. The person born of God will reflect this in his behavior. This verse is not talking about an act of sin but a way of life of sin. If this verse were speaking of an act of sin, then nobody could be saved.


This verse does teach sinlessness. You can try to put any word in the Scripture you want, but if it says whosoever is born of God cannot sin, then I have to believe whosoever is born of God cannot sin.

To differentiate between life of sin and act of sin is like saying that I may murder, but not all the time...

RogerW
Jan 24th 2009, 04:40 PM
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

This verse does not teach sinless perfection. It is speaking here of the habitual practice of known sinful acts. The true believer's actions will conform to the character of his true father, either God or Satan. The person born of God will reflect this in his behavior. This verse is not talking about an act of sin but a way of life of sin. If this verse were speaking of an act of sin, then nobody could be saved.

Hi Sheina,

It would not make sense for John to now teach sinless perfection after having said that all sin. And that when we do sin we have an Advocate (Christ) before the Father. I believe John is telling us what we can do when we are in Christ. Not what we will always do, but what we now have the power (living in us) to do.

When we are in Christ, having been born again of the Spirit, we now have a choice that we did not have before we were born again of the Spirit. Before we are born again every choice we made was from the flesh. When we were without spiritual life, we could never choose to walk according to the Spirit. We were slaves of sin and Satan, in bondage to them.

But once we have been born again of the Spirit we have the ability to choose not to sin. Just because we have the ability to choose not to sin does not mean that is the choice we are always going to make. Some try to separate our physical flesh and blood life from our new spiritual life. But that simply is not possible as long as we are physically alive. This is why Paul longed to be free from his body of death.

As long as we wear mortal, corruptible bodies of death, we can never be altogether without sin. If we could then there would really be no reason to receive new glorified, immortal, incorruptible spiritual bodies when Christ comes again. It is only our spirit, having been made alive by His Spirit in us that is made perfect in this life, perfect when we are born again from above. This is why Paul longs: "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (2Co 5:8), and why he looks forward to physical death: "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you" (Ph 1:23,24).

So John is showing us the way to keep ourselves from sinning. It's a perfect way, and never fails, but that does not mean that we, in these bodies of corruption and death have already attained to this perfection. It is what we work toward; striving to put to death, crucify, mortify, destroy, deny etc. this body of flesh that works against us in this life.

We're constantly being reminded that we are at war. Warring against the things that so easily turn us away from our Lord. The battle we are fighting is spiritual. The god of this world, and our own flesh seek to bring us again into bondage. Seeking to destroy the freedom from sin we have in Christ. John is warning us when we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Daily, put on the things of the Spirit, deny the lusts of the world, the flesh and Satan, and you will not sin, because you are being guided by His Spirit, and therefore when we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin. But, when we choose to serve our flesh, walking by the lusts thereof, we will always sin...praise be to God, we have an Advocate; Christ Jesus, interceding before the Father on our behalf.

When one has been born again, and is growing to mature faith, becoming molded more and more into the image of Christ, walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, will become a priority in this life. We will not attain to perfection, but we are called to examine ourselves to see if we are truly born from above, and have His Spirit guiding us in this life to keep us from all sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 24th 2009, 05:17 PM
Hi Sheina,

It would not make sense for John to now teach sinless perfection after having said that all sin. And that when we do sin we have an Advocate (Christ) before the Father. I believe John is telling us what we can do when we are in Christ. Not what we will always do, but what we now have the power (living in us) to do.

When we are in Christ, having been born again of the Spirit, we now have a choice that we did not have before we were born again of the Spirit. Before we are born again every choice we made was from the flesh. When we were without spiritual life, we could never choose to walk according to the Spirit. We were slaves of sin and Satan, in bondage to them.

But once we have been born again of the Spirit we have the ability to choose not to sin. Just because we have the ability to choose not to sin does not mean that is the choice we are always going to make. Some try to separate our physical flesh and blood life from our new spiritual life. But that simply is not possible as long as we are physically alive. This is why Paul longed to be free from his body of death.

As long as we wear mortal, corruptible bodies of death, we can never be altogether without sin. If we could then there would really be no reason to receive new glorified, immortal, incorruptible spiritual bodies when Christ comes again. It is only our spirit, having been made alive by His Spirit in us that is made perfect in this life, perfect when we are born again from above. This is why Paul longs: "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (2Co 5:8), and why he looks forward to physical death: "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you" (Ph 1:23,24).

So John is showing us the way to keep ourselves from sinning. It's a perfect way, and never fails, but that does not mean that we, in these bodies of corruption and death have already attained to this perfection. It is what we work toward; striving to put to death, crucify, mortify, destroy, deny etc. this body of flesh that works against us in this life.

We're constantly being reminded that we are at war. Warring against the things that so easily turn us away from our Lord. The battle we are fighting is spiritual. The god of this world, and our own flesh seek to bring us again into bondage. Seeking to destroy the freedom from sin we have in Christ. John is warning us when we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Daily, put on the things of the Spirit, deny the lusts of the world, the flesh and Satan, and you will not sin, because you are being guided by His Spirit, and therefore when we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin. But, when we choose to serve our flesh, walking by the lusts thereof, we will always sin...praise be to God, we have an Advocate; Christ Jesus, interceding before the Father on our behalf.

When one has been born again, and is growing to mature faith, becoming molded more and more into the image of Christ, walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, will become a priority in this life. We will not attain to perfection, but we are called to examine ourselves to see if we are truly born from above, and have His Spirit guiding us in this life.

Many Blessings,
RW

Excellent post and I agree...


As long as we are in these mortal corruptible bodies.. there is a law of sin present in the flesh.. its when we 'put on immortality' and 'incorruption' with a body like Jesus's, when He shall change our 'body or 'quicken' our body.... thru the Spirit of Christ which dwells in us.. in a twinkling of an 'eye'.. when that happens... then Rejoice... because your about to see YOUR Redeemer face to face... That Glorified body will not have any law of sin dwelling in it.. Christ had 'no law of 'sin' in His Flesh.. He came from Heaven.. He never 'knew' it.. but He was tempted in every way we are .. yet without sin.... and yes.. this is why Paul cried.. o wretched man that I am... who shall deliver me from this body of this death??? Well Jesus will when You HEAR His voice.. and He 'changes' your mortal body into a Body like unto His... Glorified.. amen and amen..

Paul stated that when he did err... it wasn't even him that did it.. but the law of sin which abideth in his flesh... Was Paul advocating sinning or living a sinful lifestyle? no.. He was reavealing the war that goes on between the flesh and his mind (led of the Spirit)...... he 'saw' it and experienced it... he saw that law of sin bring his members into captivity.. to the law of sin in his flesh.. Paul strived to serve God with His mind and inner man.... thru Jesus the Christ and the Power of the Spirit.. he had no 'confidence' in his flesh...

Paul calls believers to 'mortify' or put to death the things in the flesh that cause one to stumble and fall.. and walk in the Spirit... mortify he tells us to do..
---------------------------------------------------------------------

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

RogerW
Jan 24th 2009, 05:41 PM
Hi Roger,

I disagree with you. The First Epistle of John is NOT addressed to all believers; it is addressed to a unique community of believers who were very confused.

Greetings Jemand,

Some interpret Scripture without considering the historical context. For them much of Scripture, if not all is written to future Christians, forgetting these things were being taught to a literal people, living in the time of Christ. Others look at Scripture as though it must be interpreted as though it is speaking only to those living at the time it was written, without considering future Christians who will read their words.

I believe the proper way to interpret Scripture is to understand the historical context; i.e. who it was written directly to, and what was being addressed specifically to them, but also that all of Scripture is written to the universal church throughout the ages. There is something to be gained for not only those living at the time of the writing, but also to future generations of Christians.

Christians can be confused in any age, therefore John is writing to every believer.



The word “we” in 1 John 1.8 is rhetorical. John is not saying that he is a sinner. The sin that he is referring to in v. 8 is the concept of sin itself, a concept that many of these very confused believers rejected as a false concept. The sins that he is referring to in v. 9 are the sins that all people have actually committed. John is telling them that they must confess their sins in order to be forgiven and to be cleansed from all their unrighteousness. The sins that he is referring to in verse 10 are the sins that they themselves have committed in spite of their denial of having sinned.

From what authority do you conclude that John is not including himself when he says "we"? To be consistent will you also say in 1 Jo 1:1 in saying "we" John does not mean himself? ..."which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life". Certainly John is including himself when he says "things write we unto you"?

1Jo 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.



In verse 8, he is arguing that sin is a reality and that all people are guilty of it. In verse 9 he is arguing for the necessity for all people to confess their sins. In verse 9 he is countering their unstated argument that they themselves have not sinned.
Therefore, the sins being discussed here are pre-conversion sins rather than post-conversions sins. Post-conversion sins are addressed, however, in many other passages in the New Testament.

Thank you for reading my post. May God bless you!


I believe John is teaching that there is no justification for sinful conduct for those professing to be born again. Just because we have been born again, and we have received freedom in Christ, we do not have the liberty to continue in sin. We cannot think, like the Nicolatians that nothing is forbidden to the children of God under the gospel, and that in the freedom conferred on Christians we are at liberty to do whatever we please. John says "we" because even he is not at liberty to sin since he has been born again.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 05:46 PM
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times.

We can do what we please for what pleases us is righteousness. The born again have their mind set on the Spirit. It is God who works in the born again to will and to act.

sheina maidle
Jan 24th 2009, 06:06 PM
Greetings Jemand,

Some interpret Scripture without considering the historical context. For them much of Scripture, if not all is written to future Christians, forgetting these things were being taught to a literal people, living in the time of Christ. Others look at Scripture as though it must be interpreted as though it is speaking only to those living at the time it was written, without considering future Christians who will read their words.

I believe the proper way to interpret Scripture is to understand the historical context; i.e. who it was written directly to, and what was being addressed specifically to them, but also that all of Scripture is written to the universal church throughout the ages. There is something to be gained for not only those living at the time of the writing, but also to future generations of Christians.

Christians can be confused in any age, therefore John is writing to every believer.

From what authority do you conclude that John is not including himself when he says "we"? To be consistent will you also say in 1 Jo 1:1 in saying "we" John does not mean himself? ..."which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life". Certainly John is including himself when he says "things write we unto you"?

1Jo 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

I believe John is teaching that there is no justification for sinful conduct for those professing to be born again. Just because we have been born again, and we have received freedom in Christ, we do not have the liberty to continue in sin. We cannot think, like the Nicolatians that nothing is forbidden to the children of God under the gospel, and that in the freedom conferred on Christians we are at liberty to do whatever we please. John says "we" because even he is not at liberty to sin since he has been born again.

Many Blessings,
RW
Amen! :agree:
To anybody who believes in sinless perfectionism (or believes that 1 John 3:9 teaches this), I ask: Do you ever sin? Do you get sick? Why do Christians die?

Salvation brings change...we don't become sinless, but we "sin less"....our desire is not to sin, but if we do sin, we have 1 John 1:9, etc.

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 06:20 PM
I don't believe in sinless perfectionism or know anyone that does but Christians die because of Adam (tree of life) and because they all have sinned.

The word condemnation in Romans 5 and 8 means judgment. The judgment handed down to Adam, not sin. Sin entered mans world, not man. The judgment handed down to Adam was til thou return to the dust -banished from the tree of life. Reading Genesis 5 we see that death passes on all men. This we all know. Because of this and our veiled relationship sin is certain for all, so all will die. This is appointed unto man.

1) in Adam -Adam was created natural and earthy -mortal. Not one scripture implies otherwise.
2) Adam's sin separated man from the tree of life
3) relationship between God and man now had a veil ensuring all men would sin their own sin

Because of those three things death passes on all men. That is the judgment (condemnation) found 2x in Romans 5 and 1x in Romans 8 referencing Genesis 3, specifically -Adam. That Greek word is only found in those two passages.

Diolectic
Jan 24th 2009, 06:35 PM
I don't believe in sinless perfectionism or know anyone that does...Sinnless perfection is posible, but improbable.

Sin is always a choice, therefore, able to avoid. If sin is unavoidable, then sin is not disobediance or even rebellion, but only doing the inevitable. The inevitable can not have a law against it, otherwise it will be an unjust law.

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 06:36 PM
If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself. Even Paul states that he had sin wihtin him.

No, he does not.



He is stating that those who confess their sins will have them forgiven. As for being cleansed from all unrighteousness, what do you think the word "all" means?

Yes, he is stating that those people who confess their sins will have them forgiven. “All” means “all.”



In verse 10, it confirms Pauls in saying that all have sinned.

Yes, it does; and Paul was writing of pre-conversion sins.



I would love to see the text where post-conversion sins are addressed.

They are found in every passage in the New Testament where Christians are rebuked for sinning and where Christians are warned of the danger of continuing to sin.

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 06:44 PM
Sinnless perfection is posible, but improbable.

Sin is always a choice, therefore, able to avoid. If sin is unavoidable, then sin is not disobediance or even rebellion, but only doing the inevitable. The inevitable can not have a law against it, otherwise it will be an unjust law.I agree. Which is why I said in another thread, I can't imagine it but only by faith in light of the gospel that says we are dead in Christ, dead to sin, and alive unto God to bring forth fruit unto holiness, go and sin no more.

However just because someone may walk sinless, lets say for years, doesn't mean they cannot sin anytime they want to. Sinless perfectionism says the believer has reached a place where they cannot even perform an act of sin, does it not? I know there are a few variations through the keswick and methodist movements but that is my understanding and I don't know anyone that believes that, do you? Not even Yukerboy teaches that. He speaks of a position where the believer can sin and it not be sin. That is not sinless perfectionism.

sheina maidle
Jan 24th 2009, 06:46 PM
[quote=Yukerboy;1957066]
If you say you have no sin, you deceive yourself. Even Paul states that he had sin wihtin him.

No, he does not.

[quote=Yukerboy;1957066]
He is stating that those who confess their sins will have them forgiven. As for being cleansed from all unrighteousness, what do you think the word "all" means?

Yes, he is stating that those people who confess their sins will have them forgiven. “All” means “all.”

[quote=Yukerboy;1957066]
In verse 10, it confirms Pauls in saying that all have sinned.

Yes, it does; and Paul was writing of pre-conversion sins.

[/size]

They are found in every passage in the New Testament where Christians are rebuked for sinning and where Christians are warned of the danger of continuing to sin.
NOTE: Are you quoting from 1 John? If you are, why do you keep on saying "Paul was writing"...Paul did not write 1 John....John did.

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 06:47 PM
I'm sorry that you may struggle with sin, and that you don't believe that God has a better plan of Salvation. There's not much I can say or do to help you. I've been on these forums for a while now and have given scripture upon scripture, but to no avail. That isn't going to stop me, because the truth is still the truth.

I John 3 describes what a true Christian is, and how they live. Holiness, righteousness, and godly living is commanded by Almighty God through His Word. Anything short of holiness is sin, and sin cannot enter into heaven.

The Bible speaks about the end time and sin:

Mt 24:12 And because iniquity [sin] shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work [commit] iniquity [sin].

Matthew 7:23 is pretty sobering.

2Ti 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity [sin].

Those who are Christ's have departed [separated themselves] from sin completely.

Paul had total and complete victory over sin, there are just misinterpreted passages that makes people think he was bound by sin, but he truly wasn't. Each passage can be explained in its proper context.

My friend, yes I admit, I do struggle to be faithful to Our Lord Jesus. Not b/c of my faith in Him (which is Spiritual) but with my flesh (which is in the natrual).

This is just what Paul was talking about in Romans 7:11-25, when he writes,

"11. For sin taking commandment , which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 12. Therefore, the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that is good. 17. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18. For I know that in me (that is flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I do. 20. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin hat dwells in me. 21. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me unto captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body (flesh) of death? 25. I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind (spiritual members of the body) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh (Physical members of the body) the law of sin."

Now my friend. I know that I am not the most educated person on these forums with the book of Romans. There are many on here who have a much better handle on this wonderful book of Romans, then I do. This I know and understand, and you may be one in which I am referring to, I do not know.

But, from what I can see from this passage of scripture that Paul writes to us. Along with the scriptures that proceed from this passage in Chapter 8, and going forward. It would seem to me that Paul is giving a description of his battle between his Spiritual side, and his fleshly (Physical) side. His Spiritual side wanting to follow the law of God (verse 22), and the Physical or Natrual side of him, that wants to follow the law of sin (verse 23).

Yes, I agree that Jesus is the one who gives Paul and us, Grace and Salvation from all of this, as Paul states in verse 25.

But, just as Paul continues to say in that same verse. Salvation through Jesus Christ does not stop him or us from having this battle between serving the law of sin with his Flesh, and serving the law of God with his Spirit.

Yes....Paul had victory over sin with his Spirit, but in his flesh (the natrual) he did not, and neither do we. Paul struggled with this until the day that God called him home, and I suspect that we will do the same. To claim otherwise just is not in scripture.

At least from what I can see anyway....but I could be wrong.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 06:52 PM
Hi Dave,

In order to correctly understand this passage, we need to back up one verse in order to see what the word “this” in verse 21 refers to:

1 Peter 2:20. For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
21. For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
22. WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
23. and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24. and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
25. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls. (NASB, 1995)

According to this passage of Scripture, we are called by God to do what is right even if that means suffering for it and patiently enduring the suffering, thereby finding favor with God. Doing what is right does not include sinning. Peter goes on to remind us, as did Paul in Romans 6, that Christ died on the cross that we might die to sin and live to righteousness, and he quotes from Isa. 53:5 to confirm the truth of what he is teaching. Peter goes on to write that we who in past time were “continually straying like sheep,” have returned to Christ, “the Shepherd and Guardian of [our] souls.”

There are, of course, Christians who are still straying like sheep; Christians who believe in Christ and the cross, but who have not died with Christ. I have never seen a dead man commit a sin of any kind.

Thank you for reading my post. May God bless you!

Then why did Paul explain the struggle that he endured in Romans 7:11-25, as I explained in my last post?

This struggle that Paul explains is no different the the struggle that we all face in this day and age. We cannot claim to be any better then Paul was.

God Bless,

Dave

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 06:57 PM
Then why did Paul explain the struggle that he endured in Romans 7:11-25, as I explained in my last post?

This struggle that Paul explains is no different the the struggle that we all face in this day and age. We cannot claim to be any better then Paul was.

God Bless,

DaveAre you serious? Well of course you are....nevermind...:B

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 06:57 PM
Hi Sheina,

It would not make sense for John to now teach sinless perfection after having said that all sin. And that when we do sin we have an Advocate (Christ) before the Father. I believe John is telling us what we can do when we are in Christ. Not what we will always do, but what we now have the power (living in us) to do.

When we are in Christ, having been born again of the Spirit, we now have a choice that we did not have before we were born again of the Spirit. Before we are born again every choice we made was from the flesh. When we were without spiritual life, we could never choose to walk according to the Spirit. We were slaves of sin and Satan, in bondage to them.

But once we have been born again of the Spirit we have the ability to choose not to sin. Just because we have the ability to choose not to sin does not mean that is the choice we are always going to make. Some try to separate our physical flesh and blood life from our new spiritual life. But that simply is not possible as long as we are physically alive. This is why Paul longed to be free from his body of death.

As long as we wear mortal, corruptible bodies of death, we can never be altogether without sin. If we could then there would really be no reason to receive new glorified, immortal, incorruptible spiritual bodies when Christ comes again. It is only our spirit, having been made alive by His Spirit in us that is made perfect in this life, perfect when we are born again from above. This is why Paul longs: "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (2Co 5:8), and why he looks forward to physical death: "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you" (Ph 1:23,24).

So John is showing us the way to keep ourselves from sinning. It's a perfect way, and never fails, but that does not mean that we, in these bodies of corruption and death have already attained to this perfection. It is what we work toward; striving to put to death, crucify, mortify, destroy, deny etc. this body of flesh that works against us in this life.

We're constantly being reminded that we are at war. Warring against the things that so easily turn us away from our Lord. The battle we are fighting is spiritual. The god of this world, and our own flesh seek to bring us again into bondage. Seeking to destroy the freedom from sin we have in Christ. John is warning us when we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Daily, put on the things of the Spirit, deny the lusts of the world, the flesh and Satan, and you will not sin, because you are being guided by His Spirit, and therefore when we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin. But, when we choose to serve our flesh, walking by the lusts thereof, we will always sin...praise be to God, we have an Advocate; Christ Jesus, interceding before the Father on our behalf.

When one has been born again, and is growing to mature faith, becoming molded more and more into the image of Christ, walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, will become a priority in this life. We will not attain to perfection, but we are called to examine ourselves to see if we are truly born from above, and have His Spirit guiding us in this life to keep us from all sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yes I agree my friend. This is what I believe Paul is explaining in Romans 7:11-25, as I have posted. I do not see how one could come to any other conclusion through what Paul writes.

Excellent post my friend.

God Bless,

Dave

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 06:58 PM
Hi Sheina,

It would not make sense for John to now teach sinless perfection after having said that all sin.

Hello, again!

John did NOT say that we all sin.


And that when we do sin we have an Advocate (Christ) before the Father. I believe John is telling us what we can do when we are in Christ. Not what we will always do, but what we now have the power (living in us) to do.

When we are in Christ, having been born again of the Spirit, we now have a choice that we did not have before we were born again of the Spirit. Before we are born again every choice we made was from the flesh. When we were without spiritual life, we could never choose to walk according to the Spirit. We were slaves of sin and Satan, in bondage to them.

But once we have been born again of the Spirit we have the ability to choose not to sin. Just because we have the ability to choose not to sin does not mean that is the choice we are always going to make. Some try to separate our physical flesh and blood life from our new spiritual life. But that simply is not possible as long as we are physically alive. This is why Paul longed to be free from his body of death.

As long as we wear mortal, corruptible bodies of death, we can never be altogether without sin. If we could then there would really be no reason to receive new glorified, immortal, incorruptible spiritual bodies when Christ comes again. It is only our spirit, having been made alive by His Spirit in us that is made perfect in this life, perfect when we are born again from above. This is why Paul longs: "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (2Co 5:8), and why he looks forward to physical death: "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you" (Ph 1:23,24).

So John is showing us the way to keep ourselves from sinning. It's a perfect way, and never fails, but that does not mean that we, in these bodies of corruption and death have already attained to this perfection. It is what we work toward; striving to put to death, crucify, mortify, destroy, deny etc. this body of flesh that works against us in this life.

We're constantly being reminded that we are at war. Warring against the things that so easily turn us away from our Lord. The battle we are fighting is spiritual. The god of this world, and our own flesh seek to bring us again into bondage. Seeking to destroy the freedom from sin we have in Christ. John is warning us when we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Daily, put on the things of the Spirit, deny the lusts of the world, the flesh and Satan, and you will not sin, because you are being guided by His Spirit, and therefore when we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin. But, when we choose to serve our flesh, walking by the lusts thereof, we will always sin...praise be to God, we have an Advocate; Christ Jesus, interceding before the Father on our behalf.

When one has been born again, and is growing to mature faith, becoming molded more and more into the image of Christ, walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, will become a priority in this life. We will not attain to perfection, but we are called to examine ourselves to see if we are truly born from above, and have His Spirit guiding us in this life to keep us from all sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yes, “we now have a choice that we did not have before we were born again of the Spirit.” That choice pertains to every temptation. As long as we are in our physical bodies, we will be tempted to sin, but we have these promises from the Scriptures,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

1 Cor. 10:13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. (NASB, 1995)

Thank you for reading my posts. May God bless you!

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 06:59 PM
Are you serious?


Yes I am serious. If I am wrong, please tell me different.

I have no problem with being corrected.

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Jan 24th 2009, 07:09 PM
My friend, yes I admit, I do struggle to be faithful to Our Lord Jesus. Not b/c of my faith in Him (which is Spiritual) but with my flesh (which is in the natrual).

This is just what Paul was talking about in Romans 7:11-25, when he writes,

"11. For sin taking commandment , which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 12. Therefore, the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that is good. 17. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18. For I know that in me (that is flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I do. 20. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin hat dwells in me. 21. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me unto captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body (flesh) of death? 25. I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind (spiritual members of the body) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh (Physical members of the body) the law of sin."

Now my friend. I know that I am not the most educated person on these forums with the book of Romans. There are many on here who have a much better handle on this wonderful book of Romans, then I do. This I know and understand, and you may be one in which I am referring to, I do not know.

But, from what I can see from this passage of scripture that Paul writes to us. Along with the scriptures that proceed from this passage in Chapter 8, and going forward. It would seem to me that Paul is giving a description of his battle between his Spiritual side, and his fleshly (Physical) side. His Spiritual side wanting to follow the law of God (verse 22), and the Physical or Natrual side of him, that wants to follow the law of sin (verse 23).

Yes, I agree that Jesus is the one who gives Paul and us, Grace and Salvation from all of this, as Paul states in verse 25.

But, just as Paul continues to say in that same verse. Salvation through Jesus Christ does not stop him or us from having this battle between serving the law of sin with his Flesh, and serving the law of God with his Spirit.

Yes....Paul had victory over sin with his Spirit, but in his flesh (the natrual) he did not, and neither do we. Paul struggled with this until the day that God called him home, and I suspect that we will do the same. To claim otherwise just is not in scripture.

At least from what I can see anyway....but I could be wrong.

God Bless,

Dave

If you read chapter 6 of Romans, you will see the apostle Paul also said:
“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Rom. 6:1, 2.
“For sin shall not have dominion over you . . .” Rom. 6:14.
“But now being made free from sin …” Rom. 6:22.

In these scriptures and many others, Paul clearly speaks of the Christian living triumphantly over sin.

He went on in Romans 7 to “speak to them that know the [Old Testament] law,” and, speaking in the present tense, described his unregenerate condition, wherein he did not have the power to overcome sin, before his conversion. Without salvation, no man is free from the law of sin and death.
Verse 23 describes Paul’s struggle with sin before he was saved. “I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Therefore he cried, in verse 24, “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” He joyfully answers this question in Rom. 8:2–“The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.”

He was now free from the condemnation of sin because, through salvation, he was empowered to live free from committing sin. Hence, he could also go on to teach others to “awake to righteousness and sin not” (I Cor. 15:34).

In Rom. 7:19 he had said, “For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.” For sinners to insist that Paul still lived like this after being saved, they would have to negate all that Paul testified to and taught in Romans chapters 6 and 8, and all of his other writings, as well as all the New Testament writers. The apostle John said, “Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.” When Paul was doing the evil that he would not, it was because he had not yet seen God; had not yet understood and experienced His great salvation.

Diolectic
Jan 24th 2009, 07:20 PM
I agree. Which is why I said in another thread, I can't imagine it but only by faith in light of the gospel that says we are dead in Christ, dead to sin, and alive unto God to bring forth fruit unto holiness, go and sin no more.

However just because someone may walk sinless, lets say for years, doesn't mean they cannot sin anytime they want to. Sinless perfectionism says the believer has reached a place where they cannot even perform an act of sin, does it not?So many definitions to one thying, I don't know.



I know there are a few variations through the keswick and methodist movements but that is my understanding and I don't know anyone that believes that, do you?No, I don't believe that the believer can reach a place where they cannot even perform an act of sin.



Not even Yukerboy teaches that. He speaks of a position where the believer can sin and it not be sin. That is not sinless perfectionism.Yes, that would be what you discribed above, with a slight perversion.

faithfulfriend
Jan 24th 2009, 07:27 PM
Sinless perfectionism says the believer has reached a place where they cannot even perform an act of sin, does it not?

Incorrect. No that is not right.

A person never loses the ability to sin, but that doesn't mean they have to commit it. Since committing sin is a choice, you choose to either sin or not to sin.

Bible teaches in James that one must be tempted before they can sin. Temptation alone is not sin, but the yielding to temptation and committing sin is.

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 07:27 PM
Then why did Paul explain the struggle that he endured in Romans 7:11-25, as I explained in my last post?


This struggle that Paul explains is no different the the struggle that we all face in this day and age. We cannot claim to be any better then Paul was.

God Bless,

Dave

Rom. 7:14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. (NASB, 1995)

What we find in this passage is Paul using the Greek rhetorical first person singular pronoun as the Greeks liked to do to cause their readers to identify with the man being described. And the man being described here can NOT be Paul or any other Christian because the man in this passage is struggling with all his might to keep the Law of Moses. Christians are not under the Law, but under grace. The man in this passage is a devout Jew who loves God and His Law and desires with all of his heart to obey it but does not find in himself the strength to do so because he has been “sold into bondage to sin.” What a terrible thing it is to think that after redeeming a man from sin through the death of His only begotten Son, God would then sell that man into bondage to sin!

Paul, before his conversion, was a devout Jew who, unlike most devout Jews, did find it possible to be victorious over sin,

Phil. 3:6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Would you have us to believe that upon Paul’s conversion from Judaism he lost his victory over sin and that God sold him into bondage to sin so that he cried out, “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?”

The language and Biblical scholar Adam Clarke wrote on this passage,

It is difficult to conceive how the opinion could have crept into the Church, or prevailed there, that “the apostle speaks here of his regenerate state; and that what was, in such a state, true of himself, must be true of all others in the same state.” This opinion has, most pitifully and most shamefully, not only lowered the standard of Christianity, but destroyed its influence and disgraced its character. It requires but little knowledge of the spirit of the Gospel, and of the scope of this epistle, to see that the apostle is, here, either personating a Jew under the law and without the Gospel, or showing what his own state was when he was deeply convinced that by the deeds of the law no man could be justified, and had not as yet heard those blessed words: Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way, hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, Act 9:17.

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 07:47 PM
My friend, yes I admit, I do struggle to be faithful to Our Lord Jesus. Not b/c of my faith in Him (which is Spiritual) but with my flesh (which is in the natrual).

This is just what Paul was talking about in Romans 7:11-25, when he writes,

"11. For sin taking commandment , which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 12. Therefore, the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that is good. 17. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18. For I know that in me (that is flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I do. 20. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin hat dwells in me. 21. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me unto captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body (flesh) of death? 25. I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind (spiritual members of the body) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh (Physical members of the body) the law of sin."

Now my friend. I know that I am not the most educated person on these forums with the book of Romans. There are many on here who have a much better handle on this wonderful book of Romans, then I do. This I know and understand, and you may be one in which I am referring to, I do not know.

But, from what I can see from this passage of scripture that Paul writes to us. Along with the scriptures that proceed from this passage in Chapter 8, and going forward. It would seem to me that Paul is giving a description of his battle between his Spiritual side, and his fleshly (Physical) side. His Spiritual side wanting to follow the law of God (verse 22), and the Physical or Natrual side of him, that wants to follow the law of sin (verse 23).

Yes, I agree that Jesus is the one who gives Paul and us, Grace and Salvation from all of this, as Paul states in verse 25.

But, just as Paul continues to say in that same verse. Salvation through Jesus Christ does not stop him or us from having this battle between serving the law of sin with his Flesh, and serving the law of God with his Spirit.

Yes....Paul had victory over sin with his Spirit, but in his flesh (the natrual) he did not, and neither do we. Paul struggled with this until the day that God called him home, and I suspect that we will do the same. To claim otherwise just is not in scripture.

At least from what I can see anyway....but I could be wrong.

God Bless,

Dave

The seventh chapter of Romans is composed of two parts:

1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.


7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

The questions asked in verse 7, “What shall we say then? Is the Law sin?” are questions that arise due to the statement in verse 6, “But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound.” And this statement is a brief summary of what Paul wrote in Rom 6:1 – 7:5. And all of Romans 1:16 – 8:4 are one complex but cohesive argument made up of several parts in defense of Paul’s statement in Romans 1:16 that the gospel “is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

Any and all interpretations of Romans 7:14-25, in order to be correct, MUST fit into these parameters and they MUST be a logical answer to the question in Rom. 7:7, “What shall we say then? Is the Law sin?” and this answer MUST compliment and further develop the answer given in Rom. 7:7-13. Therefore, the “I” throughout Rom. 7:7-25 must be that of a man who is under the Law but failing to keep the Law and thus failing to be justified by the Law. And Romans chapter 8:14 sum up the whole matter,

Rom. 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Why is there now “no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus?” Because “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set [them] free from the law of sin and of death.

3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


The change in tense in Rom. 7:7-25 at verse 14 has stumbled very many interpreters and they have mistakenly thought that Paul begins here to write of his present condition, but that interpretation does not fit with the rest of Paul’s argument in Rom. 1:16 – 8:4; indeed, it argues against it. The change in tense is simply due to the structure of Paul’s sentence and to make his contrast clear and simple: “ the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh.”

The use in Rom. 7:14-25 of the pronoun “I” is known in literature as the “rhetorical I” where the user of this pronoun is NOT speaking of himself, but of his readers in a subtle, non-accusatory manner in which they identify with the man being described much as we commonly identify with a character in a movie, a television program, a play, or a novel.

It has been argued by many beginning in the 5th century that the man in Rom. 7:14-25 cannot be an unregenerate Jew because no unregenerate Jew would express himself and say, “For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man (v. 22)” but that is what every devout, unregenerate Jew feels in his heart, the inner man. And we must not forget that this very same man in 7:14-25 also expresses himself in this manner,

“I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.”

My dear friends, that is not the testimony of a Christian; that is the cry of defeat by a devout Jew who loves the Law with all of his heart but who is not able to keep his outward actions in compliance with the Law that he loves. And notice that in this passage there is no conflict between two natures; there is only the conflict between what the mind wants to do and what the members of his body actually do. The Law tells the mind of the Jew what to do and the mind agrees with the Law that it is “holy” and “good,” but in practice the Jew finds himself failing to live up to the demands of the Law because the Law is weak through the flesh of the man under it (Rom. 8:3).

For the Christian, however, whether he be a converted Jew or Gentile, the situation could not be more different,

Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.

The “secret” to a victorious Christian life is to understand the gospel, and to KNOW that we, in our old nature, have been crucified with Christ, that our old nature is dead and buried with Him, and that we have been resurrected with Him with a new, divine nature.

2 Pet. 1:4. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.


(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

RogerW
Jan 24th 2009, 07:57 PM
Hello, again!

John did NOT say that we all sin.

Yes, “we now have a choice that we did not have before we were born again of the Spirit.” That choice pertains to every temptation. As long as we are in our physical bodies, we will be tempted to sin, but we have these promises from the Scriptures,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

1 Cor. 10:13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. (NASB, 1995)

Thank you for reading my posts. May God bless you!

Greetings Jemand,

It is true when we are in Christ, indwelt by the Spirit we can choose not to sin. But sin is something we will not completely overcome until we are rid of our mortal, corruptible bodies of death. In this life we will be tempted to sin, and we will at times fall to temptation and sin.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 08:12 PM
Greetings Jemand,

It is true when we are in Christ, indwelt by the Spirit we can choose not to sin. But sin is something we will not completely overcome until we are rid of our mortal, corruptible bodies of death. In this life we will be tempted to sin, and we will at times fall to temptation and sin.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

I do not believe that Heb. 12:1-4 is a complicated way of telling us that we will necessarily continue to sin for the rest of our lives; I believe that Heb. 12:1-4 is an admonition to stop sinning, “fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith….” (NASB, 1995)

Diolectic
Jan 24th 2009, 08:13 PM
Live a Christian life for 25 years and you will find that stumbeling(sinning) every now and then to be normal.
The Bible tells us that it is:
James 3:2a For in many things we all offend.
Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.
Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and HE delights in his way.
:24 Though he falls, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholds him with his hand.
Notice that God delights in the man “THOUGH HE FALLS” He is even called a good man. It’s not being based on sin, but what he does WHEN he sins; which is getting right back up.

Again, never sinning again the rest of your Christian life is posible, but just improbable.

RogerW
Jan 24th 2009, 08:20 PM
Roger,

I do not believe that Heb. 12:1-4 is a complicated way of telling us that we will necessarily continue to sin for the rest of our lives; I believe that Heb. 12:1-4 is an admonition to stop sinning, “fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith….” (NASB, 1995)

Jemand, of course it is! I agree! But what it tells us is that sinning is still something we sometimes choose even though we have been born again. Why do we need to pray that we sin not? Or pray for the brother who has not committed the sin unto death? Again, we agree, in Christ we have a choice not to continue in sin. However, we are still wearing bodies of sin and death, mortality must be swallowed up in immortality, corruptible must put on incorruption...then, and only then will we be altogether without sin!

Many Blessings,
RW

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 08:31 PM
Live a Christian life for 25 years and you will find that stumbeling(sinning) every now and then to be normal.
The Bible tells us that it is:
James 3:2a For in many things we all offend.
Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.
Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and HE delights in his way.
:24 Though he falls, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholds him with his hand.
Notice that God delights in the man “THOUGH HE FALLS” He is even called a good man. It’s not being based on sin, but what he does WHEN he sins; which is getting right back up.

Again, never sinning again the rest of your Christian life is posible, but just improbable.

I shall again quote from Adam Clarke, not because I always agree with him (I don’t), but because I do in this case and he said it so well,

In many things we offend all - Πταιομεν απαντες· We all stumble or trip. Dr. Barrow very properly observes: “As the general course of life is called a way, and particular actions steps, so going on in a regular course of right action is walking uprightly; and acting amiss, tripping or stumbling.” There are very few who walk so closely with God, and inoffensively with men, as never to stumble; and although it is the privilege of every follower of God to be sincere and without offense to the day of Christ, yet few of them are so. Were this unavoidable, it would be useless to make it a subject of regret; but as every man may receive grace from his God to enable him to walk in every respect uprightly, it is to be deplored that so few live up to their privileges. Some have produced these words as a proof that “no man can live without sinning against God; for James himself, a holy apostle speaking of himself, all the apostles, and the whole Church of Christ, says, In many things we offend all.” This is a very bad and dangerous doctrine; and, pushed to its consequences, would greatly affect the credibility of the whole Gospel system. Besides, were the doctrine as true as it is dangerous and false, it is foolish to ground it upon such a text; because St. James, after the common mode of all teachers, includes himself in his addresses to his hearers. And were we to suppose that where he appears by the use of the plural pronoun to include himself, he means to be thus understood, we must then grant that himself was one of those many teachers who were to receive a great condemnation, Jam_3:1; that he was a horse-breaker, because he says, “we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us,” Jam_3:3; that his tongue was a world of iniquity, and set on fire of hell, for he says, “so is the tongue among our members,” Jam_3:6; that he cursed men, “wherewith curse we men, Jam_3:9. No man possessing common sense could imagine that James, or any man of even tolerable morals, could be guilty of those things. But some of those were thus guilty to whom he wrote; and to soften his reproofs, and to cause them to enter the more deeply into their hearts, he appears to include himself in his own censure; and yet not one of his readers would understand him as being a brother delinquent.

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 08:33 PM
Yes, that would be what you discribed above, with a slight perversion.:confused
Where?

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 08:36 PM
Incorrect. No that is not right.

A person never loses the ability to sin, but that doesn't mean they have to commit it. Since committing sin is a choice, you choose to either sin or not to sin.

Bible teaches in James that one must be tempted before they can sin. Temptation alone is not sin, but the yielding to temptation and committing sin is.I agree. That's exactly what I said. I simply gave what I understand the definition of sinless perfectionism to be. I have repeatedly said it is not biblical. You say that definition of the false doctrine is wrong? :confused

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 08:42 PM
Yes I am serious. If I am wrong, please tell me different.

I have no problem with being corrected.

God Bless,

Davefaithfulfriend and Jemand have explained this quite well.

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 08:43 PM
Jemand, of course it is! I agree! But what it tells us is that sinning is still something we sometimes choose even though we have been born again. Why do we need to pray that we sin not? Or pray for the brother who has not committed the sin unto death? Again, we agree, in Christ we have a choice not to continue in sin. However, we are still wearing bodies of sin and death, mortality must be swallowed up in immortality, corruptible must put on incorruption...then, and only then will we be altogether without sin!

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

Yes, we have the ability in Christ to choose between sin and righteousness. Yes, we are still wearing bodies of death, but not of sin. The body of sin died on the Cross, the body of death will be redeemed upon the return of Christ for His Church.

Rom 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 8:23. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (NASB, 1995)

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 08:46 PM
In this life we will be tempted to sin, and we will at times fall to temptation and sin.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Fine but that's not what Heb 12:3-4 says. They are talking about Jesus.
"consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself"
We haven't given ourselves to become sin, despising the shame, having known no sin as Jesus did.

faithfulfriend
Jan 24th 2009, 08:49 PM
I agree. That's exactly what I said. I simply gave what I understand the definition of sinless perfectionism to be. I have repeatedly said it is not biblical. You say that definition of the false doctrine is wrong? :confused

Sinless perfection does not mean that a person LOSES the ability to sin. Everybody is human, therefore if they decide to commit a sin, they can.

But, with the Holy Spirit and Sanctification, a person has the grace of God and power to live sinless every day. That doesn't mean they have LOST the ability to sin, but rather they simply resist ALL temptations of sin and therefore live sinless according to God's Word.

RogerW
Jan 24th 2009, 09:07 PM
Roger,

Yes, we have the ability in Christ to choose between sin and righteousness. Yes, we are still wearing bodies of death, but not of sin. The body of sin died on the Cross, the body of death will be redeemed upon the return of Christ for His Church.

Rom 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 8:23. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (NASB, 1995)

Jemand,

It seems you are trying to separate our physical life from our spiritual life in this world. It is in our bodies of death; i.e. the flesh where sin yet dwells within us. Why else would Paul be waiting eagerly for the redemption of our body?

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Albert Barnes' notes on the New Testament:

Verse 18. For I know. This is designed as an illustration of what he had just said, that sin dwelt in him.

That is, in my flesh. In my unrenewed nature; in my propensities and inclinations before conversion. Does not this qualifying expression show that in this discussion he was speaking of himself as a renewed man? Hence he is careful to imply that there was at that time in him something that was right or acceptable with God, but that that did not pertain to him by nature.

Dwelleth. His soul was wholly occupied by that which was evil. It had taken entire possession.

No good thing. There could not be possibly a stronger expression of belief of the doctrine of total depravity. It is Paul's own representation of himself. It proves that his heart was wholly evil. And if this was true of him, it is true of all others. It is a good way to examine ourselves, to inquire whether we have such a view of our own native character as to say that we know that in our flesh there dwelleth no good thing. The sense here is, that so far as the flesh was concerned--that is, in regard to his natural inclinations and desires-- there was nothing good; all was evil. This was true in his entire conduct before conversion, where the desires of the flesh reigned and rioted without control; and it was true after conversion, so far as the natural inclinations and propensities of the flesh were concerned. All those operations in every state were evil, and not the less evil because they are experienced under the light and amidst the influences of the gospel.

To will. To purpose or intend to do good.

Is present with me. I can do that. It is possible; it is in my power. The expression may also imply that it was near to him, (parakeitai), that is, it was constantly before him; it was now his habitual inclination and purpose of mind. It is the uniform, regular, habitual purpose of the Christian's mind to do right.

But how. The sense would have been better retained here if the translators had not introduced the word how. The difficulty was not in the mode of performing it, but to do the thing itself.

I find not. I do not find it in my power; or I find strong, constant obstacles, so that I fail of doing it. The obstacles are not natural, but such as arise from long indulgence in sin; the strong native propensity to evil.

Many Blessings,
RW

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 09:20 PM
[quote]If you read chapter 6 of Romans, you will see the apostle Paul also said:
“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Rom. 6:1, 2.
“For sin shall not have dominion over you . . .” Rom. 6:14.
“But now being made free from sin …” Rom. 6:22.

In these scriptures and many others, Paul clearly speaks of the Christian living triumphantly over sin.


Yes I agree, Paul is clearly teaching of Christians living triumphantly over sin in those verses. But this is through our Spiritual being, not through our Natural being. Yes, through our Faith in Jesus Christ (which is Spiritual) we do have victory over sin. But through our Natural (which is our bodies) we fall short to this victory. We make choices each and every day. We do not always choose to walk with our Spirit being, and when we don't...we sin and are not living a righteous life at the time.

Now we can repent and be forgiven for that sin, and once again walk in the righteousness of God. But we can not walk continually in the righteousness while we are still living in our Natural bodies.


He went on in Romans 7 to “speak to them that know the [Old Testament] law,” and, speaking in the present tense, described his unregenerate condition, wherein he did not have the power to overcome sin, before his conversion. Without salvation, no man is free from the law of sin and death.


Yes I will agree that Paul speaks to them that know the OT law in Romans 7. But like I said before in this thread. Jesus became the OT Law that Paul is speaking of in Romans 7. We can find Paul telling us this very thing in Romans 3:21-23:

"21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. 22. Even the righteousness of God which by faith of (in) Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Here in these three passages Paul is clearly saying that the righteousness of God does not depend on keeping the Law that was given to Moses, which was the Mosaic Law. But what it did depend on was, that our Faith in Jesus Christ was in fact, believing, that Jesus Christ fulfilled all those laws that were given to Moses in the OT. Verses 22-23 tell us that even the ungodly and the religious people all fall short of this Glory of Gods. What Glory of God's? The righteousness of God which is His Son Jesus Christ Our Lord. Paul goes on to spell that right out for us in Romans 3:27:

"27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."

Paul says that nobody, has done anything or could do anything accept....have faith. Faith in what....the law? No. Faith in the fact that Jesus Christ came to fulfill those laws for us.

Paul sums up this teaching by saying in Romans 3:31:

"31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

Now......how does Paul say that we establish the law? According to Paul it is through Faith in Jesus Christ and nothing else. Now I could be wrong here but common sense would tell me that, in order for Jesus to establish the law, He would of had to become the law in the flesh in order to do so. My common sense thinking here is backed up with scripture that Jesus said Himself in Matthew 5:17:

"17. Think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

God gave the law in the OT to help those folks see their need for God's grace. God never intended for people to get right with Him for there sin in the Garden, by keeping the law. Only Jesus had all the requirements to do such a thing for God. For anyone to say that one is more righteous then Our Lord Jesus, is just not Spiritually correct. Our Lord walked this earth in the flesh and never once committed sin by choice from His Natural body and mind. But we are not Jesus and are not that righteous. We make choices and do sin in our Natural, and in return walk in the law of sin. But in our Spiritual we follow the law of Christ like Paul did, and at that point and time we do not sin. But no where in scripture do you find that one is walking in the Spiritual (righteousness of God) 24 hours a day. Not as long as we can make a choice with a Natural mind and body, we can't.

God Bless,

Dave

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2009, 09:34 PM
1stPeter 2:21-25,

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

any thoughts

God Bless,

Dave

It says that we should follow his steps and sin not as he did not sin.

that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin,

Firstfruits

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 09:56 PM
Jemand,

It seems you are trying to separate our physical life from our spiritual life in this world. It is in our bodies of death; i.e. the flesh where sin yet dwells within us. Why else would Paul be waiting eagerly for the redemption of our body?

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Albert Barnes' notes on the New Testament:

Verse 18. For I know. This is designed as an illustration of what he had just said, that sin dwelt in him.

That is, in my flesh. In my unrenewed nature; in my propensities and inclinations before conversion. Does not this qualifying expression show that in this discussion he was speaking of himself as a renewed man? Hence he is careful to imply that there was at that time in him something that was right or acceptable with God, but that that did not pertain to him by nature.

Dwelleth. His soul was wholly occupied by that which was evil. It had taken entire possession.

No good thing. There could not be possibly a stronger expression of belief of the doctrine of total depravity. It is Paul's own representation of himself. It proves that his heart was wholly evil. And if this was true of him, it is true of all others. It is a good way to examine ourselves, to inquire whether we have such a view of our own native character as to say that we know that in our flesh there dwelleth no good thing. The sense here is, that so far as the flesh was concerned--that is, in regard to his natural inclinations and desires-- there was nothing good; all was evil. This was true in his entire conduct before conversion, where the desires of the flesh reigned and rioted without control; and it was true after conversion, so far as the natural inclinations and propensities of the flesh were concerned. All those operations in every state were evil, and not the less evil because they are experienced under the light and amidst the influences of the gospel.

To will. To purpose or intend to do good.

Is present with me. I can do that. It is possible; it is in my power. The expression may also imply that it was near to him, (parakeitai), that is, it was constantly before him; it was now his habitual inclination and purpose of mind. It is the uniform, regular, habitual purpose of the Christian's mind to do right.

But how. The sense would have been better retained here if the translators had not introduced the word how. The difficulty was not in the mode of performing it, but to do the thing itself.

I find not. I do not find it in my power; or I find strong, constant obstacles, so that I fail of doing it. The obstacles are not natural, but such as arise from long indulgence in sin; the strong native propensity to evil.

Many Blessings,
RW

Albert Barnes radically misunderstood Paul’s Epistle to the Romans (Yes, I have read every word of his commentary on Romans). The man being described in Rom. 7:14-25 can NOT be Paul or any other Christian because the man in this passage is struggling with all his might to keep the Law of Moses. Christians are not under the Law, but under grace, and therefore they do not struggle to keep the Law of Moses. The man in this passage is a devout Jew who loves God and His Law and desires with all of his heart to obey it, but does not find in himself the strength to do so because he has been “sold into bondage to sin.”

Everything that Paul wrote must be interpreted in the context in which he wrote it. Paul was already redeemed from sin and he was eagerly waiting for the redemption of his old and decaying body.

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 09:56 PM
[QUOTE]Paul, before his conversion, was a devout Jew who, unlike most devout Jews, did find it possible to be victorious over sin,

This I agree with.


Would you have us to believe that upon Paul’s conversion from Judaism he lost his victory over sin and that God sold him into bondage to sin so that he cried out, “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?”

I do not wish to have anyone to believe anything that I say. All I am doing is presenting scripture from what it says my friend. Believe God......not me.

It is my understanding from scripture that Paul's conversion, was nothing more then finding out the truth of the OT Law, and accepting it. Just like our conversion from the false way of living to the true way of living, which is through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Paul writes in Romans 3:9:

"9. What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin."

Now....why does Paul say here that the Jews and the Greeks (Gentiles) are all under sin? Well.....b/c all mankind is under sin simply b/c of man sinning in the Garden.

Would you have us believe that Paul forgot that he was a Jew when he wrote this verse, and that he was indeed including himself in with those when he says "is all under sin?"

God Bless,

Dave

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 10:10 PM
It is my understanding from scripture that Paul's conversion, was nothing more then finding out the truth of the OT Law, and accepting it. Just like our conversion from the false way of living to the true way of living, which is through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Paul’s conversion was very much more than that—it was his regeneration, his being born again, his becoming a new man in Christ Jesus, the former man having died.


Paul writes in Romans 3:9:

"9. What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin."
Now....why does Paul say here that the Jews and the Greeks (Gentiles) are all under sin? Well.....b/c all mankind is under sin simply b/c of man sinning in the Garden.
Would you have us believe that Paul forgot that he was a Jew when he wrote this verse, and that he was indeed including himself in with those when he says "is all under sin?"
God Bless,
Dave

Rom. 3:9 is found in the part of his epistle where he is arguing that all men, both Jews and Gentiles, have sinned and are guilty of having sinned, whether only in Adam or personally. Paul is NOT arguing in this part, or any part, of his epistle that he or any other Christian is still sinning; they may be, but Paul makes no mention of it if they are.

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 10:11 PM
It says that we should follow his steps and sin not as he did not sin.

that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin,

Firstfruits

Yes that is right it does....and we can walk the same steps that Jesus walks with Our Spirit being. Just like Paul did and all the disciples did after Jesus sent the Comforter (Holy Spirit).

But we cannot walk in the same steps as Our Lord did in our Physical being. I have yet to see and never will see, anyone walk in the foot steps of Our Lord Jesus, as He did in the Physical. We can't. We can't make the same choices that Jesus made from our Physical being. But from our Spiritual being we can. We do not walk in our Spiritual being 24 hours a day, making choices from our Spiritual being all the time. There are times that we fall short from our Spiritual being, and walk in our Natural being, and when that happens we sin. Jesus could walk in the Natural and never sin. We cannot do that, and there is no scripture that says that we can.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 10:17 PM
faithfulfriend and Jemand have explained this quite well.

They may have explained things well for you. But you are not the only person on this thread or the only one reading it my friend.

As far as I am concerned, nothing has been explained very well at all according to scripture. And that is all I am concerned about.

What God has to say about it. Not me, you or anyone else. Just the scripture. Present me the scripture....and we will talk.

God Bless,

Dave

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 10:18 PM
Sinless perfection does not mean that a person LOSES the ability to sin. Everybody is human, therefore if they decide to commit a sin, they can.I have said that repeatedly and have agreed repeatedly, yet you persist. Why?

I am not talking about or asking what you consider sinless perfection to be. I'm not interested in your new definition of an old term or anyone elses. I am talking about a real doctrine made by real mean at a real point in history. It did in fact teach a second work of grace whereby the one receiving that second work of grace could no longer sin. This has been my contention throughout. That no one here has made any such claim, yet the accusation keeps occurring. Sinless perfection doesn't mean what you or anyone else says it means. It means what has already been established in Church History.

Now, if someone would be so kind as to show me where anyone has made this claim, I am ready and willing to admit I am wrong or missed they were making the point.

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 10:27 PM
They may have explained things well for you. But you are not the only person on this thread or the only one reading it my friend.

As far as I am concerned, nothing has been explained very well at all according to scripture. And that is all I am concerned about.

What God has to say about it. Not me, you or anyone else. Just the scripture. Present me the scripture....and we will talk.

God Bless,

DaveNo. What they said is more than adequate. I disagree in some points but agree with them in most. If you can show that what Paul said in a handful of verses is the truth over everything else Paul ever said in all of his epistles including Romans, be my guest. Paul did not spend 6 chapters establishing the gospel is nothing to be ashamed of because it produces righteousness in the believers life, which is something the law could never do (in other words the gospel is better than the law), just to turn around and say he couldn't do anything but sin (proving the gospel is no better than the law). That so far off the map it would be laughable if it were not for so many professing to be Christians that live in sin bringing shame to his name didn't believe it.

Romans is a progressive argument (1-3 -- 4-5 -- 6-8 -- 9-11), not something to pick apart and use as you will to fit your random theology.

sheina maidle
Jan 24th 2009, 10:32 PM
[quote=Jemand;1957290]



This I agree with.



I do not wish to have anyone to believe anything that I say. All I am doing is presenting scripture from what it says my friend. Believe God......not me.

It is my understanding from scripture that Paul's conversion, was nothing more then finding out the truth of the OT Law, and accepting it. Just like our conversion from the false way of living to the true way of living, which is through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Paul writes in Romans 3:9:

"9. What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin."

Now....why does Paul say here that the Jews and the Greeks (Gentiles) are all under sin? Well.....b/c all mankind is under sin simply b/c of man sinning in the Garden.

Would you have us believe that Paul forgot that he was a Jew when he wrote this verse, and that he was indeed including himself in with those when he says "is all under sin?"

God Bless,

Dave
The Apostle Paul called himself the "chief of sinners".

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)

Before Paul met the Lord on the road to Damascus, he was a persecutor of the church:

And Saul was consenting unto his (Stephen) death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. (Acts 8:3)

Paul was a self-righteous Pharisee. His "bragging rights" are found in Philippians 3:5-6:

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Philippians 3:5-6)

Paul's conversion was much, much more than "finding out the truth of the OT Law, and accepting it." There are many who "find out the truth and accept it"...but the knowledge of that truth does not save a soul. Paul's life was totally changed after he met the Lord on the Damascus road. One needs to "trust" and "put their faith in that truth"...otherwise that "truth" is simply "head knowledge".

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10)

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 10:38 PM
That's because when Paul said that he was a son of God, not a sinner. He was a sinner and the context bears out what you say concerning his former life as a sinner. In no way ever did Paul claim to be a sinner. He in fact feared acting like a sinner for that he would then be a castaway.

sheina maidle
Jan 24th 2009, 11:20 PM
That's because when Paul said that he was a son of God, not a sinner. He was a sinner and the context bears out what you say concerning his former life as a sinner. In no way ever did Paul claim to be a sinner. He in fact feared acting like a sinner for that he would then be a castaway.
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)

Are you saying that Paul wasn't needing to be saved and that he was not a sinner? Did Paul lie when he called himself the chief of sinners? Was Paul some type of "super-human-bionic" man?

We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we ARE sinners! Jesus Christ came to save SINNERS...He saved Paul...if Paul was not a sinner, why did Jesus Christ have to save him?

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Corinthians 9:27)

The word "castaway" means "disapproved or rejected". This verse refers to Paul's fear that he would be rejected by God in terms of his service and usefulness. The context of this verse was his preaching ministry (v. 16-27). His fear of being disapproved by God motivated him constantly to bring his body into subjection and to be temperate in all things (v. 25-27).

Read the entire chapter....Paul had no fear of acting like a sinner...He knew who he was "in Christ".

Please explain how a sinner is supposed to act.

BCF
Jan 24th 2009, 11:28 PM
No. What they said is more than adequate. I disagree in some points but agree with them in most. If you can show that what Paul said in a handful of verses is the truth over everything else Paul ever said in all of his epistles including Romans, be my guest. Paul did not spend 6 chapters establishing the gospel is nothing to be ashamed of because it produces righteousness in the believers life, which is something the law could never do (in other words the gospel is better than the law), just to turn around and say he couldn't do anything but sin (proving the gospel is no better than the law). That so far off the map it would be laughable if it were not for so many professing to be Christians that live in sin bringing shame to his name didn't believe it.

Romans is a progressive argument (1-3 -- 4-5 -- 6-8 -- 9-11), not something to pick apart and use as you will to fit your random theology.

You obviously have been picking and choosing what you wanted to read on this thread my friend. In case you have forgotten, this thread is entitled, Dead to Sin / Live Unto Righteousness.

I started this thread with this post out of 1st Peter 2:21-25:

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Then asked this question:

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

This brings us to where we are now 66 some odd post later into this discussion. Doing this time I did not just stay in the Book of Romans and ex amount of chapters to try and prove my theology as you make it sound like I did. But what I did use the Book of Romans for was to indeed point to a path of Righteousness in Jesus Christ, and being Dead to Sin through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ. Which can only be done in Spirit and Truth, and not in Mind and Natural.

How was this done? By explaining how Jesus, who in Matthew 5:17 said:

"17. Think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

What for Law do you think Jesus is talking about? It has to be the Law that was given to Moses in the OT also known as the Mosaic Law. This is the same Law that Paul is talking about in Romans 3:31 when he writes:

"31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

There is only one person we are to have Faith in, and that is Jesus Christ. Not the Law. Why do you suppose God gave the Law to Moses in the OT in the first place? It was given so the people of the OT would see the need for God's grace. Why? Because of the sin in the Garden. Paul amplified all of this in the Book of Romans. When Paul wrote this Book he was not Snorkeling at the surface of the Ocean. No....He was Scuba diving at the bottom of the Ocean digging up the treasures of the basis of Our Faith in Christ Jesus.

I have gone through this once before with you my friend on another thread, on how Jesus became the law, and how it was Gods plan from the very beginning to do so. You did not answer me then, and when things get to hard for you, you will not answer me now. I can give plenty of scripture just as anyone else can. But I am not the only one writing on this thread, and a lot of the scripture that I would go to someone else has touched on. I see no need to repeat what someone else has said. I was in the Book of Romans and using that Book to show a straight path to the Law that was given to Moses on the OT, which as Paul explained and Jesus confirmed. That the Law was nothing more then Jesus Christ Our Lord in the Flesh, doing for us what no other man could. And that my friend was to give Salvation to all.

If one does not understand what Paul was talking about, and the path that he took to get to his conclusions. One can never come to understand who Our Lord is, to walk in the Spirit to begin with.

If you don't want to agree with what scripture says, so be it. But I just provide what is says. Take your problem up with God.

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Jan 24th 2009, 11:30 PM
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)

Are you saying that Paul wasn't needing to be saved and that he was not a sinner? Did Paul lie when he called himself the chief of sinners? Was Paul some type of "super-human-bionic" man?

We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we ARE sinners! Jesus Christ came to save SINNERS...He saved Paul...if Paul was not a sinner, why did Jesus Christ have to save him?


Again we have Paul speaking in the present tense, while looking back at his conduct as Saul of Tarsus, the religious sinner that desperately needed salvation. If we go to verse 13, he says, “Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious, but I obtained mercy . . .”

Paul reminds his readers of what he used to be, using himself as an example to give others hope that they can have this same salvation and be transformed to newness of life, as was he. “Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.” Verse 16.

If he was the chief sinner among the congregations while professing, why would God entrust him with such an important work in the church and allow him to be their teacher and guide, if they were doing better than he was? And, if such were the case, Paul did not meet the standards of being a bishop, which he listed to Timothy.

Paul also had this victorious testimony, “I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day” (Acts 23:1), and stated in I Thess. 2:10, “Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.” This does not sound like the testimony of a chief sinner!

sheina maidle
Jan 24th 2009, 11:53 PM
Again we have Paul speaking in the present tense, while looking back at his conduct as Saul of Tarsus, the religious sinner that desperately needed salvation. If we go to verse 13, he says, “Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious, but I obtained mercy . . .”

Paul reminds his readers of what he used to be, using himself as an example to give others hope that they can have this same salvation and be transformed to newness of life, as was he. “Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.” Verse 16.

If he was the chief sinner among the congregations while professing, why would God entrust him with such an important work in the church and allow him to be their teacher and guide, if they were doing better than he was? And, if such were the case, Paul did not meet the standards of being a bishop, which he listed to Timothy.

Paul also had this victorious testimony, “I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day” (Acts 23:1), and stated in I Thess. 2:10, “Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.” This does not sound like the testimony of a chief sinner!
1 Timothy 1:15 is in the PRESENT tense! "I am chief"

Paul did not magnify himself...he magnified and glorified the Lord Jesus Christ. He knew who he was "in Christ". This verse shows Paul's humility...."not I but Christ". Read Romans 7....this describes Paul's spiritual battles and how it is only through Jesus Christ that we all have the victory. It is not a description of Paul's past life. If the Christian goes through his Christian walk without any opposition from the enemy, he/she better examine their faith.

Jesus Christ lives His life through the victorious Christian...but we all have our setbacks.

After Paul's conversion, he never attempted to extenuate his conduct, or excuse himself. He was always ready, in all circles, and in all places, to admit, to its fullest extent, the fact that he was a sinner. So deeply convinced was he of the truth of this, that he bore about with him the constant impression that he was eminently unworthy; and hence he does not say merely that he had been a sinner of most aggravated character, but he speaks of it as something that always pertained to him--" of whom I am chief." (Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible)

Jemand
Jan 25th 2009, 02:42 AM
I have gone through this once before with you my friend on another thread, on how Jesus became the law, and how it was Gods plan from the very beginning to do so.

No, Jesus did NOT become the Law. The Bible says that He became sin on our behalf, and the Law is NOT sin.

2 Cor. 5:21. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NASB, 1995)

Rom. 7:7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." (NASB, 1995)

BCF
Jan 25th 2009, 03:56 AM
Paul’s conversion was very much more than that—it was his regeneration, his being born again, his becoming a new man in Christ Jesus, the former man having died.

This I agree with. Simply b/c this is the same thing that happens to everyone who comes to Our Lord Jesus, and His Truth. I would not expect Paul to do anything different then what Jesus said that anyone who comes to Him would need to do.


Rom. 3:9 is found in the part of his epistle where he is arguing that all men, both Jews and Gentiles, have sinned and are guilty of having sinned, whether only in Adam or personally. Paul is NOT arguing in this part, or any part, of his epistle that he or any other Christian is still sinning; they may be, but Paul makes no mention of it if they are.

I never said that Paul was arguing his point either. Which is why I believe Paul pointed straight to the OT scripture to prove his point in Romans 3:10-12:

"10. As it is written , there is none righteous, no , not one: 11. There is none who understands; 12. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

These passages that Paul refers to stems from the book of Psalms 14:1-3, and Psalms 53:1-3. Romans 3:13:

13. Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit; The poison of asps is under their lips."

Sounds very much like a paraphrase of Psalms 140:3. I could very well be wrong with that.....but it sure looks that way to me. The asp that is mentioned in verse 13, I picture being like the Egyptian cobra which has it's poison in a sack under it's lips. This is a different way of looking at just how evil fallen humans really are in the sight of God. But it is the way that I picture it from scripture.

Romans 3:14-17:

14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. 15. Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16. Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17. And the way of peace they have not known."

From what I can see from scripture and make reference to. I would say that Paul is referring to Proverbs 1:16, and Isaiah 59:7-8, while Romans 3:18:

18. There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Would from what I have learned from study, stem from Psalms 36:1. Most folks like to make the claim that all these OT verses just have to do with ungodly people. But Paul made it clear that this is not the case in the very next two verses, Romans 3:19-20:

"19. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

The OT Law revealed to everyone that they were living in sin. Paul's conclusion to this was simple. Al the ungodly and Godly have sinned. But as I have pointed out before on this thread. God needed to do something about that, and He did. What did He do? Sent His only Son to do a job that no other human could ever do. Not now and not ever. Be sinless in a fleshly body, while walking in the Spirit, all at the same time.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 25th 2009, 04:09 AM
No, Jesus did NOT become the Law. The Bible says that He became sin on our behalf, and the Law is NOT sin.

2 Cor. 5:21. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NASB, 1995)

Rom. 7:7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." (NASB, 1995)

If Jesus did not become the Law on our behalf.....what kind of law did Jesus fulfill when He said this in Matthew 5:17:

"17. Think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

In order for Jesus to fulfill the law.......He would need to become the Law in order to fulfill it. You can't make something that you are not. Jesus would not be able to do what He said He came to do, if He was not going to become it, so He could do it. This is why He became sin....so that He could defeat sin for us. If Jesus would not have become sin on our behalf....how was He suppose to defeat sin for us?

And don't give me Jesus was God and He could do anything that He wants to do. All that kind of a comment will do is take us down another rabbit trail.

God Bless,

Dave

sheina maidle
Jan 25th 2009, 06:58 AM
If Jesus did not become the Law on our behalf.....what kind of law did Jesus fulfill when He said this in Matthew 5:17:

"17. Think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

In order for Jesus to fulfill the law.......He would need to become the Law in order to fulfill it. You can't make something that you are not. Jesus would not be able to do what He said He came to do, if He was not going to become it, so He could do it. This is why He became sin....so that He could defeat sin for us. If Jesus would not have become sin on our behalf....how was He suppose to defeat sin for us?

And don't give me Jesus was God and He could do anything that He wants to do. All that kind of a comment will do is take us down another rabbit trail.

God Bless,

Dave
Jesus Christ IS God...He kept all the Mosaic laws. He also observed the feasts. Jesus did these things because He was born a Jew, born under the law, that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from its penalty and bondage. He certainly did not become the Law in order to fulfill it...because He was God, He was the only One Who was able to fulfill it.

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (Galatians 4:4)

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Galatians 4:5)

He became SIN for us....our sin was imputed to Him and His righteousness was imputed to us.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Sirus
Jan 25th 2009, 09:34 AM
No. What they said is more than adequate. I disagree in some points but agree with them in most. If you can show that what Paul said in a handful of verses is the truth over everything else Paul ever said in all of his epistles including Romans, be my guest. Paul did not spend 6 chapters establishing the gospel is nothing to be ashamed of because it produces righteousness in the believers life, which is something the law could never do (in other words the gospel is better than the law), just to turn around and say he couldn't do anything but sin (proving the gospel is no better than the law). That so far off the map it would be laughable if it were not for so many professing to be Christians that live in sin bringing shame to his name didn't believe it.

Romans is a progressive argument (1-3 -- 4-5 -- 6-8 -- 9-11), not something to pick apart and use as you will to fit your random theology.You obviously have been picking and choosing what you wanted to read on this thread my friend. In case you have forgotten, this thread is entitled, Dead to Sin / Live Unto Righteousness.

I started this thread with this post out of 1st Peter 2:21-25:

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)If I have been picking and choosing and forgotten what the thread is about why am I quoted right on topic?

Romans 6= dead to sin -says it 3x
1st Peter 2= died to sin

Romans 7= old man/body of sin and death- married to another
1st Peter 2= going astray - returned to the Shepherd



Then asked this question:

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

This brings us to where we are now 66 some odd post later into this discussion. Doing this time I did not just stay in the Book of Romans and ex amount of chapters to try and prove my theology as you make it sound like I did. But what I did use the Book of Romans for was to indeed point to a path of Righteousness in Jesus Christ, and being Dead to Sin through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ. Which can only be done in Spirit and Truth, and not in Mind and Natural.It says we can stop sinning and walk in righteousness by faith in our crucifixion with Christ. Because it is by faith we war after the Spirit, but since we live in the flesh we can sin anytime we want to. Your question answered itself. I would also point out that the blood forgives sin and the body of Christ, we were in, is why were are dead to sin. I don't know why you say the blood is why we are dead to sin. Maybe it is because you think Romans 6 and 1st Peter 2 is positional only and not experiential? I have a feeling that is where we disagree. Why? Because that is where I almost always disagree with others concerning these passages. You think? If so, I can easily prove it is experiential. Shall I?



How was this done? By explaining how Jesus, who in Matthew 5:17 said:

"17. Think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

What for Law do you think Jesus is talking about? It has to be the Law that was given to Moses in the OT also known as the Mosaic Law. This is the same Law that Paul is talking about in Romans 3:31 when he writes:

"31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

There is only one person we are to have Faith in, and that is Jesus Christ. Not the Law. Why do you suppose God gave the Law to Moses in the OT in the first place? It was given so the people of the OT would see the need for God's grace. Why? Because of the sin in the Garden. Paul amplified all of this in the Book of Romans. When Paul wrote this Book he was not Snorkeling at the surface of the Ocean. No....He was Scuba diving at the bottom of the Ocean digging up the treasures of the basis of Our Faith in Christ Jesus.

I have gone through this once before with you my friend on another thread, on how Jesus became the law, and how it was Gods plan from the very beginning to do so. You did not answer me then, and when things get to hard for you, you will not answer me now. I can give plenty of scripture just as anyone else can. But I am not the only one writing on this thread, and a lot of the scripture that I would go to someone else has touched on. I see no need to repeat what someone else has said. I was in the Book of Romans and using that Book to show a straight path to the Law that was given to Moses on the OT, which as Paul explained and Jesus confirmed. That the Law was nothing more then Jesus Christ Our Lord in the Flesh, doing for us what no other man could. And that my friend was to give Salvation to all.

If one does not understand what Paul was talking about, and the path that he took to get to his conclusions. One can never come to understand who Our Lord is, to walk in the Spirit to begin with.

If you don't want to agree with what scripture says, so be it. But I just provide what is says. Take your problem up with God.

God Bless,

Dave
Your premise is that I disagree with you, but based on what I have read here we are in agreement. Obviously there's a problem somewhere because we do not agree on Romans 7. So if we have gone through this before and I didn't respond this is probably why. I don't understand your premise of disagreement with me while you post in agreement with me. I am not at all shy, but if I cannot pinpoint where and why we disagree, what can I say? Can you explain why we agree with this post of yours and not with Romans 7? Things don't get hard on me because of Scripture, but they do get hard because of man. That can be because of others or myself. Where and why do we differ on Romans 7? How can we differ while Romans 6 and 7 say what 1st Peter 2 says?

BCF
Jan 25th 2009, 08:22 PM
Jesus Christ IS God...He kept all the Mosaic laws. He also observed the feasts. Jesus did these things because He was born a Jew, born under the law, that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from its penalty and bondage. He certainly did not become the Law in order to fulfill it...because He was God, He was the only One Who was able to fulfill it.

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (Galatians 4:4)

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Galatians 4:5)

He became SIN for us....our sin was imputed to Him and His righteousness was imputed to us.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

What was the purpose for God giving the Law to Moses in the first place?

Before I can get to answer everything that you replied, I must first find out why you think God gave the Law to Moses. I have already given my answer to this question many a times on this thread. You my friend seem to disagree, which is fine, disagreement is a way that we both learn. Maybe I am reading scripture in correctly and need to check what I believe. I don't know.

So......in saying all of that. Why was the Law given to Moses in the first place, from God, for the people that Moses led out of Egypt

Let's start at the beginning, and end up in Galatians, 2 Corinthians, Romans, and the rest of the NT scripture that was written pertaining to this.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 25th 2009, 08:43 PM
If I have been picking and choosing and forgotten what the thread is about why am I quoted right on topic?

Romans 6= dead to sin -says it 3x

I think this is where we differ my friend. Yes I will agree that Romans 6 does say dead to sin. But dead to sin in the Natural (Physical) our the Spirit (Holy Ghost)

Which is Paul speaking about being dead to sin in?


1st Peter 2= died to sin

Same question here. Is Peter saying that we died to sin in the Spirit, or in the Natural?


Romans 7= old man/body of sin and death- married to another

Same here. Is the old man in the Physical or the Spirit in which Paul is referring to in Romans 7?


1st Peter 2= going astray - returned to the Shepherd

Same here. Does one go astray and return in the Physical, or the Spirit?

God Bless,

Dave

Spirit Driven
Jan 25th 2009, 10:29 PM
1stPeter 2:21-25,

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

any thoughts

God Bless,

Dave

I have not read a single post in this thread with the exception of the opening post, which I have quoted above.

I can imagine the debate that followed this question.....but there is somthing I would like you all to consider.

If we are Dead to Sin....instead of Dead in your Sins, and we are still living breathing Flesh and Blood human beings, that can only mean one thing.

That we are Free of our Sins in the midst of them.

Paul did write that it was for Freedom that Christ set us Free.

Peace

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 12:26 AM
No, he does not.

Paul states "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. "

So, yes he did, lest you feel Paul did not write Romans.


Yes, he is stating that those people who confess their sins will have them forgiven. “All” means “all.”

Amen! All means all. And all unrighteousness is all.



Yes, it does; and Paul was writing of pre-conversion sins.

LOL! I guess I missed where Paul said pre-conversion....but then all sins are preconversion.


They are found in every passage in the New Testament where Christians are rebuked for sinning and where Christians are warned of the danger of continuing to sin.

The born again do not sin or John lied or John didn't write 1 John.

Sirus
Jan 26th 2009, 01:42 AM
If I have been picking and choosing and forgotten what the thread is about why am I quoted right on topic?

Romans 6= dead to sin -says it 3xI think this is where we differ my friend. Yes I will agree that Romans 6 does say dead to sin. But dead to sin in the Natural (Physical) our the Spirit (Holy Ghost)

Which is Paul speaking about being dead to sin in?
1st Peter 2= died to sin Same question here. Is Peter saying that we died to sin in the Spirit, or in the Natural?
Romans 7= old man/body of sin and death- married to another Same here. Is the old man in the Physical or the Spirit in which Paul is referring to in Romans 7?
1st Peter 2= going astray - returned to the Shepherd Same here. Does one go astray and return in the Physical, or the Spirit?

God Bless,

DaveOur baptism into Christ was in Spirit. It is our position. It is what God did for us and to us. We believe in it by (faith) trusting what he said. That we are in fact crucified with Christ yet we live. Abraham believe his dead body would produce seed because God said so. We believe our alive body is dead because God said so. In both cases, something actual takes place in the natural as a result of what took place in the spiritual. It is both. It cannot be just one or the other. God's purpose was that both the natural and the physical be affected by his promise. Question; our glorified bodies fashioned after Christ's, are they physical, spiritual, or both? Both!

Diolectic
Jan 26th 2009, 02:48 AM
Yes, it does; and Paul was writing of pre-conversion sinsLOL! I guess I missed where Paul said pre-conversion....but then all sins are preconversion.Romans 7:14 For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having been sold into slavery to sin.

Christians are not "living after the flesh", and they are not "sold into bondage to sin", they have been freed from the bondage of slavery to sin and live/walk after the spirit.
Therfore, since Paul wrote that which he did in Romans 7:14, he was explaining a pre-salvation experiance.

Romans 7:15 & 20 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.
Christians do not "habitualy do what they hate" (sin)

Jemand
Jan 26th 2009, 09:11 PM
If Jesus did not become the Law on our behalf.....what kind of law did Jesus fulfill when He said this in Matthew 5:17:

"17. Think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

In order for Jesus to fulfill the law.......He would need to become the Law in order to fulfill it. You can't make something that you are not. Jesus would not be able to do what He said He came to do, if He was not going to become it, so He could do it. This is why He became sin....so that He could defeat sin for us. If Jesus would not have become sin on our behalf....how was He suppose to defeat sin for us?

And don't give me Jesus was God and He could do anything that He wants to do. All that kind of a comment will do is take us down another rabbit trail.

God Bless,

Dave

No, in order to fulfill the Law, Jesus would not need to become the Law and He did not become the Law. The Greek verb translated “to fulfill” has various shades of meaning depending upon the context. In his The Gospel According to St. Matthew: The Greek Text with Introduction, Notes, and Indices, Alan Hugh M’Neile wrote of Jesus in Matt. 5:17,

He came to fill the Law, to reveal the full depth of meaning that it was intended to hold (cf. Rom. xiii. 8, Gal. v. 14, and the instructive use of the verb in Luke xxii. 16).

I fully agree with M’Neile on this point.

threebigrocks
Jan 26th 2009, 09:37 PM
1stPeter 2:21-25,

"21. For unto this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22. Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth, 23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-by whose stripes you were healed. 25. For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." (NKJV)

Does this say that when we are born again we no longer sin b/c we are dead to sin, and are walking in the righteousness of God. Or does it say that we can sin even though we are dead to sin?

any thoughts

God Bless,

Dave

Romans 6
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.



Galatians 6
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Certainly, nobody yet in mortal flesh is incapable of sin. Just the way it is.

We consider ourselves dead in Christ by faith. When we are, we need to strive against the flesh, make it submit, to our spirit which is redeemed. So that leaves us with two natures at war with each other.

Which one will we sow to? Which one will we cultivate, feed, nourish? The spiritual or the flesh? If we sow to the flesh, we'll reap what the flesh is able to give - death. If we sow to the spirit, we'll reap what the spirit is able to give - eternal life in Christ through faith.

If we allow the flesh to rule, we sow what is perishable.
If we allow the spirit to rule, we sow what is imperishable.

We should go and sin no more. Through that which is alive and redeemed, our spirit, we can count the flesh dead now. Does it on occasion jump up and bite us? Sure.

Hebrews 4
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


If we do sin, we have One in heaven who is our mediator, who understands the desire of the flesh and has overcome. Ask forgiveness and keep on walking.



James 4
16But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.



If you know better, and choose sin - that is sowing to the flesh.


Have you sinned today? Ask for mercy. If not, good! Plan to remain so tomorrow.

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 09:40 PM
Romans 7:14 For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having been sold into slavery to sin.

Christians are not "living after the flesh", and they are not "sold into bondage to sin", they have been freed from the bondage of slavery to sin and live/walk after the spirit.
Therfore, since Paul wrote that which he did in Romans 7:14, he was explaining a pre-salvation experiance.

Romans 7:15 & 20 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.
Christians do not "habitualy do what they hate" (sin)

What version puts habitually in there?

To say that Romans 7 explains someone pre-salvation is to say that no one sins before salvation for Paul states "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

So if it is pre-conversion as you say, then all who sinned did not sin, but the sin dwelling within them did it.

Or...

If it is post conversion, Paul has sin dwelling within him, but commits no sin.

I couldn't support the thought of sinlessness before conversion but I guess you could and still be saved. :saint:

Good on you.

BCF
Jan 26th 2009, 10:31 PM
Our baptism into Christ was in Spirit.

Yes...I agree


It is our position.

It is only ones position if one is Born Again. It is not ones Position if all they do is Believe in God. Believing in God does not make one Born Again.


It is what God did for us and to us.

What God did for us, was give us a way to live an Eternal Life with Him. Which was by sending His only Son to take upon Himself our sins. God does not make one become Born Again, or accept the Spirit of His Only Son.
God does not do it for us, and He does not make us. We choose to do it on our own.


We believe in it by (faith) trusting what he said.

No....we believe in God through Love, and we trust what God says through Faith. We cannot believe anything that God says unless we Love Him first. The we can trust what He says through our Faith in that Love.


That we are in fact crucified with Christ yet we live.

Spiritually we Live and follow our Lord Jesus Christ and His Commandments, not in the Natural. In the Natural we sin. Shoot, in the Natural, God even needed to turn His back on His only Son Our Lord, when He got crucified on the cross, Matthew 27:46:

"46. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Jesus Being God, could not even stand to look at Himself in the Natural, b/c it was covered with our sins. God cannot stand sin, not even to look at it. God needed to turn His back on the Natural side of Jesus, and look at Our Lord Jesus from the Spiritual, which was sinless.
This my friend is all in scripture.


Abraham believe his dead body would produce seed because God said so.

No.....Abraham believed that God would produce a seed, (which turned out to be Jesus Christ Himself) b/c of the promise that God made in the Garden. Abraham believed God b/c He Loved God and would do anything for God. Abraham proved that when he was going to sacrifice his only son, Issac b/c God said so. Abraham was way past believing in God. Abraham was one who committed his life to God by doing whatever God said. No matter if it made sense or not. That's a commitment that you our I our anyone else will ever do.


We believe our alive body is dead because God said so.

No....we believe that our Natural body is dead b/c we don't listen to it anymore. Instead we listen to Our Spirit, which our Natural body disagrees with, b/c our Spirit most of the time does not make any sense to our Natural body.


In both cases, something actual takes place in the natural as a result of what took place in the spiritual. It is both.

Which came first......the chicken or the egg.:rolleyes: When Adam sinned in the Garden....what died on him. Was it His Spirit with God, or was it his Natural being, and belief in God?
The answer to that question should prove that the Spirit and the Natural are two different things, that work independently. So it can't be both.


God's purpose was that both the natural and the physical be affected by his promise.

God cares nothing about the natural shell that we all a body. That's why it turns to dust. But He does care about the Spiritual well being of His creation, b/c it was created in His own image. That's why He sent Jesus so that we could live Spiritually forever in His kingdom.


Question; our glorified bodies fashioned after Christ's, are they physical, spiritual, or both? Both!

They are Spiritual.

God Bless,

Dave

Jemand
Jan 26th 2009, 10:39 PM
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)

Are you saying that Paul wasn't needing to be saved and that he was not a sinner? Did Paul lie when he called himself the chief of sinners? Was Paul some type of "super-human-bionic" man?

We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we ARE sinners! Jesus Christ came to save SINNERS...He saved Paul...if Paul was not a sinner, why did Jesus Christ have to save him?

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Corinthians 9:27)

The word "castaway" means "disapproved or rejected". This verse refers to Paul's fear that he would be rejected by God in terms of his service and usefulness. The context of this verse was his preaching ministry (v. 16-27). His fear of being disapproved by God motivated him constantly to bring his body into subjection and to be temperate in all things (v. 25-27).

Read the entire chapter....Paul had no fear of acting like a sinner...He knew who he was "in Christ".

Please explain how a sinner is supposed to act.

1 Tim. 1:15. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
16. Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

This passage needs to be compared with other things that Paul wrote about himself. To the Corinthians he wrote,

1 Cor. 15:9. For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Beyond dispute, the behavior which was responsible for Paul being the “least of the apostles” was NOT his behavior as an apostle, but his behavior before his conversion to Christianity, yet he wrote in this verse of himself using the present tense just as he did in 1 Tim. 1:15. For readers who are unfamiliar with New Testament Greek, the use of the Greek present tense in these passages can cause confusion. However, as every student of New Testament Greek knows, the New Testament writers very often used the Greek present tense when describing events that occurred wholly in past time and this use of the Greek present tense is known as the “historic present.” It is almost always ignored when translating the Greek into English, but the NASB, in the gospels where it occurs very often and the meaning is beyond question in past time, every English past tense verb that is a translation of a Greek verb in the present tense is marked with an asterisk. The first example of this in the New Testament is found in Matt. 2:13,

Matt. 2:13. Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord *appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.”

Who would deny, despite the use of the Greek present tense, that an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream that he had, not in the present time, but about 2,000 years ago. And let us not confuse the Greek present tense, in which the time of the action (if in view at all) is subordinate to the aspect of the action, and the English present tense in which the aspect of the action is subordinate to the time of the action. In 1 Tim. 1:15 and 1 Cor. 15:9, the time of the action is not seen in the tense of the verb, but in the context in which it is found, a context of past time.

It is not necessary, however, to be familiar with the Greek verb system to correctly understand 1 Tim. 1:15. As faithfulfriend has pointed out, Paul also wrote of himself,

1 Thes. 2:10. You are witnesses, and so is God, how devoutly and uprightly and blamelessly we behaved toward you believers;
11. just as you know how we were exhorting and encouraging and imploring each one of you as a father would his own children,
12. so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

And Luke quotes Paul speaking to the high priest Ananias,

Acts 21:1. Paul, looking intently at the Council, said, "Brethren, I have lived my life with a perfectly good conscience before God up to this day."

The passages that I have quoted above expressly show that when Paul referred to himself as the foremost (the translation used in the most accurate of our English translations) of sinners, he was writing of his persecution of the church rather than his experience as a saved man. In other words, Paul was writing to Timothy that during the time that he persecuted the church he was the most prominent of those who were doing so.

I find the interpretation given in the post quoted above to be of serious concern because it not only fails to consider the function of the tense of the Greek verb in the phrase translated “I am,” but it implies that Paul, a man who was, before being saved, “as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless (an objective, historical fact stated in Phil 3:6),” became the “chief” sinner upon becoming a Christian. If getting saved causes men to become terrible sinners, there is something terribly wrong with the Christian gospel. More likely, there is something wrong with the interpretation given in the post.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)

BCF
Jan 26th 2009, 10:49 PM
No, in order to fulfill the Law, Jesus would not need to become the Law and He did not become the Law. The Greek verb translated “to fulfill” has various shades of meaning depending upon the context. In his The Gospel According to St. Matthew: The Greek Text with Introduction, Notes, and Indices, Alan Hugh M’Neile wrote of Jesus in Matt. 5:17,

He came to fill the Law, to reveal the full depth of meaning that it was intended to hold (cf. Rom. xiii. 8, Gal. v. 14, and the instructive use of the verb in Luke xxii. 16).

I fully agree with M’Neile on this point.

My friend.....you can fully agree with this M'Neile person, and anything that they would have to say in regards to the scripture, all you want to. This M'Neile person is not going to get you or I, or anyone else into the Pearly Gates of Heaven.

But God will, and so will what God says in His Word. Everything in scripture, from the time the Law was made and given to Moses, up until Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said "IT IS FINISHED" just before He died on that tree, points to Jesus fulfilling something for God, that no man could or would ever do. And that my friend was the Laws that God gave humans to follow, b/c of the sin in the Garden.

If you want to believe some man and what he has to say about scripture. Go for it.

But as for me and my house, we will continue to serve the Lord, and what He wrote through His Prophets.

God Bless,

Dave

CommanderRobey
Jan 26th 2009, 10:50 PM
1 Tim. 1:15. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
16. Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

This passage needs to be compared with other things that Paul wrote about himself. To the Corinthians he wrote,

1 Cor. 15:9. For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Beyond dispute, the behavior which was responsible for Paul being the “least of the apostles” was NOT his behavior as an apostle, but his behavior before his conversion to Christianity, yet he wrote in this verse of himself using the present tense just as he did in 1 Tim. 1:15. For readers who are unfamiliar with New Testament Greek, the use of the Greek present tense in these passages can cause confusion. However, as every student of New Testament Greek knows, the New Testament writers very often used the Greek present tense when describing events that occurred wholly in past time and this use of the Greek present tense is known as the “historic present.” It is almost always ignored when translating the Greek into English, but the NASB, in the gospels where it occurs very often and the meaning is beyond question in past time, every English past tense verb that is a translation of a Greek verb in the present tense is marked with an asterisk. The first example of this in the New Testament is found in Matt. 2:13,

Matt. 2:13. Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord *appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.”

Who would deny, despite the use of the Greek present tense, that an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream that he had, not in the present time, but about 2,000 years ago. And let us not confuse the Greek present tense, in which the time of the action (if in view at all) is subordinate to the aspect of the action, and the English present tense in which the aspect of the action is subordinate to the time of the action. In 1 Tim. 1:15 and 1 Cor. 15:9, the time of the action is not seen in the tense of the verb, but in the context in which it is found, a context of past time.

It is not necessary, however, to be familiar with the Greek verb system to correctly understand 1 Tim. 1:15. As faithfulfriend has pointed out, Paul also wrote of himself,

1 Thes. 2:10. You are witnesses, and so is God, how devoutly and uprightly and blamelessly we behaved toward you believers;
11. just as you know how we were exhorting and encouraging and imploring each one of you as a father would his own children,
12. so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

And Luke quotes Paul speaking to the high priest Ananias,

Acts 21:1. Paul, looking intently at the Council, said, "Brethren, I have lived my life with a perfectly good conscience before God up to this day."

The passages that I have quoted above expressly show that when Paul referred to himself as the foremost (the translation used in the most accurate of our English translations) of sinners, he was writing of his persecution of the church rather than his experience as a saved man. In other words, Paul was writing to Timothy that during the time that he persecuted the church he was the most prominent of those who were doing so.

I find the interpretation given in the post quoted above to be of serious concern because it not only fails to consider the function of the tense of the Greek verb in the phrase translated “I am,” but it implies that Paul, a man who was, before being saved, “as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless (an objective, historical fact stated in Phil 3:6),” became the “chief” sinner upon becoming a Christian. If getting saved causes men to become terrible sinners, there is something terribly wrong with the Christian gospel. More likely, there is something wrong with the interpretation given in the post.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)
Paul was not stating that one becomes a sinner once one is saved. Paul affirmed that he still sinned even though he was saved.

In Romans 7, Paul stated that although he found himself sinning at times it was not because he wanted to sin. 'the evil that I would not, that I do.'

Before salvation, there is no struggle when it comes to sin. If one wanted to steal, one would steal. Given the chance to lie, one would lie.

But after salvation, one has a battle between the Spirit that dwells within, and the flesh. At times, one gives in to the flesh just as before salvation. But the difference is the Spirit after Salvation begins to convict when one both before and after one sins.

Paul struggled with sin more after his salvation because of the Spirit of God bringing conviction for sin. Clearly he was not saying he became a sinner after Salvation.

BCF
Jan 26th 2009, 11:01 PM
Romans 6
8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.



Galatians 6
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Certainly, nobody yet in mortal flesh is incapable of sin. Just the way it is.

We consider ourselves dead in Christ by faith. When we are, we need to strive against the flesh, make it submit, to our spirit which is redeemed. So that leaves us with two natures at war with each other.

Which one will we sow to? Which one will we cultivate, feed, nourish? The spiritual or the flesh? If we sow to the flesh, we'll reap what the flesh is able to give - death. If we sow to the spirit, we'll reap what the spirit is able to give - eternal life in Christ through faith.

If we allow the flesh to rule, we sow what is perishable.
If we allow the spirit to rule, we sow what is imperishable.

We should go and sin no more. Through that which is alive and redeemed, our spirit, we can count the flesh dead now. Does it on occasion jump up and bite us? Sure.

Hebrews 4
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


If we do sin, we have One in heaven who is our mediator, who understands the desire of the flesh and has overcome. Ask forgiveness and keep on walking.



James 4
16But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.



If you know better, and choose sin - that is sowing to the flesh.


Have you sinned today? Ask for mercy. If not, good! Plan to remain so tomorrow.

Hi threebigrocks,

Good post. Thank you for sharing.

To answer your question of (did I sin today) you bet....probably more then what I think I did. Did I ask for mercy? Sure did, and will be asking for more mercy before I turn in tonight I'm sure, if I make it that far.

As for tomorrow, I'll worry about that then. I may not be here tomorrow to need to think about it.

I'll wait and see what God has to say about that one before I think about it.

God Bless,

Dave

CommanderRobey
Jan 26th 2009, 11:08 PM
'as touching the law, blameless'

Paul was a pharisee of the pharisees. Check the history of the pharisees in the Gospels. They were quick to accuse the Lord Jesus Christ of breaking the Law (which we know He did not). Jesus pointed out to the pharisees that they were liars and hypocrites.

That would tell me Paul was the biggest liar of the pharisees and the most hypocritical.

Just because Paul was considered by the pharisees to be blameless, does not mean he was blameless in God's eyes.

Paul was the chief of sinners prior to his salvation and since he still struggled with sin, he considered himself the chief of sinners after salvation.

Hence the statement, 'of whom I am chief.'

Jemand
Jan 26th 2009, 11:08 PM
What version puts habitually in there?

To say that Romans 7 explains someone pre-salvation is to say that no one sins before salvation for Paul states "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

So if it is pre-conversion as you say, then all who sinned did not sin, but the sin dwelling within them did it.

Or...

If it is post conversion, Paul has sin dwelling within him, but commits no sin.

I couldn't support the thought of sinlessness before conversion but I guess you could and still be saved. :saint:

Good on you.

Rom. 7:7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

The man described in Rom. 7:7-25 is striving to keep the Law of Moses, and miserable failing to do so. That certainly was not Paul’s experience before his conversion to Christianity,

Phil. 3:4. although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Are we to suppose that the arch-defender of the New Testament principle that a Christian is not under the Law, but under grace (Rom. 6:14, etc.) would totally ignore that fact and strive to keep the Law that he himself knew was the very power sin? (1 Cor. 15:56)

Are we to ignore the six verses that precede verse 7 in which Paul writes that we “were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that [we] might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.”?

The man described in Rom. 7:7-25 is striving to keep the Law of Moses and, therefore, cannot be any other than an unregenerate Jew who loves the Law of God as does every devout Jew, but who without Christ is unable to keep it.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)

threebigrocks
Jan 26th 2009, 11:18 PM
Hi threebigrocks,

Good post. Thank you for sharing.

To answer your question of (did I sin today) you bet....probably more then what I think I did. Did I ask for mercy? Sure did, and will be asking for more mercy before I turn in tonight I'm sure, if I make it that far.

As for tomorrow, I'll worry about that then. I may not be here tomorrow to need to think about it.

I'll wait and see what God has to say about that one before I think about it.

God Bless,

Dave

Can't go one day without sinning?

Simple enough to sow to the spirit even when the flesh is screaming at you. Self control isn't for the spirit but for the flesh.

2 Peter 2
5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;



If we claim these things, and strive toward them, sowing to the spirit, we are doing well. Sin is unfruitful, but when we don't let it rule us and resist, applying these principles we won't be found unfruitful, even if we stumble. We push on. If we stumble we have a high priest who will show us mercy. Then we get up and push on.

Jemand
Jan 26th 2009, 11:30 PM
'as touching the law, blameless'

Paul was a pharisee of the pharisees. Check the history of the pharisees in the Gospels. They were quick to accuse the Lord Jesus Christ of breaking the Law (which we know He did not). Jesus pointed out to the pharisees that they were liars and hypocrites.

That would tell me Paul was the biggest liar of the pharisees and the most hypocritical.

Just because Paul was considered by the pharisees to be blameless, does not mean he was blameless in God's eyes.

Paul was the chief of sinners prior to his salvation and since he still struggled with sin, he considered himself the chief of sinners after salvation.

Hence the statement, 'of whom I am chief.'

Paul, as a Christian and an apostle, wrote that as to the righteousness which is in the Law, he was found blameless. Are we to suppose that, because he had been a Pharisee, he is still lying here as a Christian and an apostle? And notice that when we wrote that he was found blameless, he did not qualify the statement, limiting the judgment to mere men. Paul, as a Jew, was victorious over sin and did not hesitate to say so. Nonetheless, he sinned in Adam, as he himself taught in Rom. 5:12-14, and therefore needed the salvation found only in Christ just as much as is need by the very worst of sinners.

Most certainly, if Paul considered himself to be the chief of sinners after salvation, he would have looked for a savior who could do a better job!

Should we believe the words of men who are living defeated lives, having been “sold into bondage to sin;” or should we believe the words of Christ Himself,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

CommanderRobey
Jan 27th 2009, 12:08 AM
Paul, as a Christian and an apostle, wrote that as to the righteousness which is in the Law, he was found blameless. Are we to suppose that, because he had been a Pharisee, he is still lying here as a Christian and an apostle? And notice that when we wrote that he was found blameless, he did not qualify the statement, limiting the judgment to mere men. Paul, as a Jew, was victorious over sin and did not hesitate to say so. Nonetheless, he sinned in Adam, as he himself taught in Rom. 5:12-14, and therefore needed the salvation found only in Christ just as much as is need by the very worst of sinners.

Most certainly, if Paul considered himself to be the chief of sinners after salvation, he would have looked for a savior who could do a better job!

Should we believe the words of men who are living defeated lives, having been “sold into bondage to sin;” or should we believe the words of Christ Himself,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

Isaiah wrote that all our righteousness is as filthy rags. In the eyes of Paul's fellow pharisee's Paul was indeed blameless. But had Paul's righteousness truly been blameless in God's eyes, there would have been no need for the Damascus Road experience.

As I stated before, the pharisees were not truly blameless no matter how much they wanted to be.

Christ indeed does set man free from sin. Man no longer has to sin once man has placed his trust in Christ. And yet, man still finds himself sinning from time to time.

John, in his epistle to not the lost... but to the saints, '1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.'

and

'1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.'

Just because one places ones faith in Christ does not mean that one will be sinless the rest of his or her life. And if one thinks he or she is without sin, he or she is deceiving himself or herself.

Sirus
Jan 27th 2009, 03:28 AM
It is what God did for us and to us. What God did for us, was give us a way to live an Eternal Life with Him. Which was by sending His only Son to take upon Himself our sins. God does not make one become Born Again, or accept the Spirit of His Only Son.
God does not do it for us, and He does not make us. We choose to do it on our own.
I completely agree. I did not mean that in the reformed/calvinist sense.




We believe in it by (faith) trusting what he said. No....we believe in God through Love, and we trust what God says through Faith. We cannot believe anything that God says unless we Love Him first. The we can trust what He says through our Faith in that Love.
I agree. This doesn't contradict what I said at all.




That we are in fact crucified with Christ yet we live. Spiritually we Live and follow our Lord Jesus Christ and His Commandments, not in the Natural. In the Natural we sin. Shoot, in the Natural, God even needed to turn His back on His only Son Our Lord, when He got crucified on the cross, Matthew 27:46:

"46. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Jesus Being God, could not even stand to look at Himself in the Natural, b/c it was covered with our sins. God cannot stand sin, not even to look at it. God needed to turn His back on the Natural side of Jesus, and look at Our Lord Jesus from the Spiritual, which was sinless.
This my friend is all in scripture.
Yes and spiritually following after the Spirit brings fruit in the Natural. Like it or not. Without the natural, faith is dead.

God cannot stand sin so much that the accuser of the brethren and original sinner could stand before God and reason with Him concerning Job.




Abraham believe his dead body would produce seed because God said so. No.....Abraham believed that God would produce a seed, (which turned out to be Jesus Christ Himself) b/c of the promise that God made in the Garden.
There's a diff? No matter how you dance around it the natural was affected by faith. Faith is substance and evidence. Faith is not something that is not seen. I know that it is popular to teach that but it is not biblical. Read Hebrews 11 and tell me what substance and evidence was not seen.




We believe our alive body is dead because God said so. No....we believe that our Natural body is dead b/c we don't listen to it anymore. Instead we listen to Our Spirit, which our Natural body disagrees with, b/c our Spirit most of the time does not make any sense to our Natural body.
Are you joking? Why don't we listen to it, because we are possessed? Hardly. We can listen to the flesh anytime we want to. If what you say is true no one with the Spirit would ever sin. The only way is by faith (trust) in that God says we are dead and do not have to sin because we are crucified. 'Sanctified by faith in me'




In both cases, something actual takes place in the natural as a result of what took place in the spiritual. It is both. Which came first......the chicken or the egg.:rolleyes: When Adam sinned in the Garden....what died on him. Was it His Spirit with God, or was it his Natural being, and belief in God?
The answer to that question should prove that the Spirit and the Natural are two different things, that work independently. So it can't be both.
The chicken and the egg ;) The chicken had seed within itself, did it not?

When Adam sinned physical death was certain and God required sacrifice and atonement for sin. Did He get it? Do we see man in relationship with God after Adam sinned? Absolutely. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Spirit and physical are two parts of our nature. Separate but inseparable.




God's purpose was that both the natural and the physical be affected by his promise. God cares nothing about the natural shell that we all a body. That's why it turns to dust. But He does care about the Spiritual well being of His creation, b/c it was created in His own image. That's why He sent Jesus so that we could live Spiritually forever in His kingdom.
Slight correction here. I meant to say

"God's purpose was that both the natural and the spiritual be affected by his promise."

Sorry!



Question; our glorified bodies fashioned after Christ's, are they physical, spiritual, or both? Both! They are Spiritual.
So the new earth that is heaven where God dwells with man forever, it's spiritual only or physical as well? The resurrected Christ? Spiritual only? He said 'touch and see that is is I, that I am flesh and bone'. Not flesh and blood, mind you, but he did say touch flesh and bone. Not all flesh is the same flesh. The glorified flesh is glorified but it is physical and flesh and bone.

Spirit Driven
Jan 27th 2009, 09:31 AM
Romans 7:14 For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having been sold into slavery to sin.

Christians are not "living after the flesh", and they are not "sold into bondage to sin", they have been freed from the bondage of slavery to sin and live/walk after the spirit.

Therfore, since Paul wrote that which he did in Romans 7:14, he was explaining a pre-salvation experiance.

Not possible, you ignore completly...Romans 7:14 For we know that the requirements are spiritual.

Paul is confirming that we already have knowledge that we are saved.... that is how....For we know.

Romans 7:15 & 20 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.

Christians do not "habitualy do what they hate" (sin)

Not true.... the Word that first proceeded out of the mouth of God in Romans 7 15 & 20 has just....declared.....


Romans 7:15 & 20 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.

Heed..... and Believe the word of the Lord ! .....via his Apostle...

Spirit Driven
Jan 27th 2009, 09:50 AM
Slight correction here. I meant to say

"God's purpose was that both the natural and the spiritual be affected by his promise."

Sorry!

Correction....Flesh and blood will never inherit the Kingdom......and the spiritual be affected by his promise

Peace

Yukerboy
Jan 27th 2009, 01:45 PM
The man described in Rom. 7:7-25 is striving to keep the Law of Moses, and miserable failing to do so. That certainly was not Paul’s experience before his conversion to Christianity,

Really?

And here I thought Paul found himself striving to keep the law pre-conversion as he was circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. Yet, he failed miserably for he did not have love. He persecuted the church out of spite, out of hatred.

Don't kid yourself, when Paul says that it is no longer he who sins but the sin living within his flesh that does it, he is not talking of people pre-conversion, for they sin.


The man described in Rom. 7:7-25 is striving to keep the Law of Moses and, therefore, cannot be any other than an unregenerate Jew who loves the Law of God as does every devout Jew, but who without Christ is unable to keep it.


I see now. So when Paul says it is no longer he who sins, that means it is the unregenerate Jew that is sinless....hmmm.

BCF
Jan 27th 2009, 02:52 PM
Sirus, threebigrocks, and anyone else who may be questioning in this thread, where I am coming from in scripture.

My friends, I have not forgotten about your replies to me from yesterday, and I have much to say from scripture about your replies. But last night I had a church meeting which lasted longer then what we think the elders of the church thought it would, and we are expecting snow this evening, so I need to get feed for our horses this morning.

I will be back later this afternoon to continue our discussion on this topic from the Word of God, and what I see in scripture from my studies on this kind of a topic of Dead to Sin / Live unto Righteousness. Not that I am correct mind you, b/c there is non correct but God. But I do stand on the scripture for what it is, and what it says, and why it is saying it. As long as it is kept in context, which is where I fall in my interpretation of scripture, simply b/c I am human with emotions and feeling, which do not always strive with God and His Spirit that dwells in me.

So be patient with me my friends, as I take care of what God has given me to watch over for Him. And I will return this afternoon to continue this discussion of ours which gives me joy in my heart to have, b/c it gives me an opportunity to draw closer to Our Lord Jesus, as I dive deeply into His Loving Word. My prayer is that God not only Blesses my Spirit and Soul from this study, but that His Blessing extends out across the airways of these computers, and has the same effect on everyone. For God's Glory and His Kingdom.

Be back soon.

God Bless,

Dave

Diolectic
Jan 27th 2009, 04:32 PM
Romans 7:14 For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having been sold into slavery to sin.

Christians are not "living after the flesh", and they are not "sold into bondage to sin", they have been freed from the bondage of slavery to sin and live/walk after the spirit.
Therfore, since Paul wrote that which he did in Romans 7:14, he was explaining a pre-salvation experiance.

Romans 7:15 & 20 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.
Christians do not "habitualy do what they hate" (sin)Not true.... the Word that first proceeded out of the mouth of God in Romans 7 15 & 20 has just....declared.....
Romans 7:15 & 20 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.

Heed..... and Believe the word of the Lord ! .....via his Apostle...What?
Where does iy say, "and Believe the word of the Lord !"
Anyway, before Paul was a Christian, he was a Pharasee. That means he believe the word of the Lord before He was saved.

Furtheremore, Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Christians have found how to perform that which is good as this verse says that Paul hasn't.
Therfore, since Paul wrote that which he did in Romans 7:18, he was explaining a pre-salvation experiance.

Diolectic
Jan 27th 2009, 05:19 PM
Romans 7:14 For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having been sold into slavery to sin.

Christians are not "living after the flesh", and they are not "sold into bondage to sin", they have been freed from the bondage of slavery to sin and live/walk after the spirit.
Therfore, since Paul wrote that which he did in Romans 7:14, he was explaining a pre-salvation experiance.

Romans 7:15 & 20 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.
Christians do not "habitualy do what they hate" (sin)What version puts habitually in there?The word "DO" in Greek is Strong's Greek #4238 for πράσσω = prassō - pras'-so:
To "practise", that is, perform repeatedly or habitually


To say that Romans 7 explains someone pre-salvation is to say that no one sins before salvation for Paul states "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." So if it is pre-conversion as you say, then all who sinned did not sin, but the sin dwelling within them did it.How so?
The "sin" which "dwels in him" are his own affections which he knows to be unlawful; hance, sin.


If it is post conversion, Paul has sin dwelling within him, but commits no sin.Paul is not passing the blaim on sin, but calling the affections as sin.
Sin is not an entity which works without ones consent as you supose.

Paul does not disown the sin, but is telling us that with the mind, he is
warring against the standard of his moral conscience or the law of his mind(V.25) as he delights in the law of God after the inward man which is his actual being as a Pharasee, he truly agrees to the righteous requirements of the Law of God warring against the law of his mind (V.23), and with the flesh, he serves the requirements of my own fleshly desires, which is sin (V.25).


I couldn't support the thought of sinlessness before conversion but I guess you could and still be saved.Then you'd better interpret the Scriptures correctly.
Therefore, since Paul wrote that which he did in Romans 7:18, he was explaining a pre-salvation experience.

Yukerboy
Jan 27th 2009, 06:25 PM
The word "DO" in Greek is Strong's Greek #4238 for πράσσω = prassō - pras'-so:
To "practise", that is, perform repeatedly or habitually

prassō

1) to exercise, practise, to be busy with, carry on
a) to undertake, to do
2) to accomplish, perform
a) to commit, perpetrate
3) to manage public affairs, transact public business
a) to exact tribute, revenue, debts
4) to act

Once again, I ask, what version has the word "habitually". I am not one for rewriting Scripture.


How so?
The "sin" which "dwels in him" are his own affections which he knows to be unlawful; hance, sin.

Ok, I'd even agree with that. Paul also says it is no longer he that does it.


Paul is not passing the blaim on sin, but calling the affections as sin.
Sin is not an entity which works without ones consent as you supose.

Paul does not disown the sin, but is telling us that with the mind, he is
warring against the standard of his moral conscience or the law of his mind(V.25) as he delights in the law of God after the inward man which is his actual being as a Pharasee, he truly agrees to the righteous requirements of the Law of God warring against the law of his mind (V.23), and with the flesh, he serves the requirements of my own fleshly desires, which is sin (V.25).

Once again, Paul says it is no longer he that commits sin.


Then you'd better interpret the Scriptures correctly.
Therefore, since Paul wrote that which he did in Romans 7:18, he was explaining a pre-salvation experience.

If it is a pre-salvation experience, and Paul said he doesn't sin, but the sin in his flesh does, then those who are pre-salvation do not commit sin.

Christ was never needed if this was pre-salvation.

Diolectic
Jan 27th 2009, 07:32 PM
prassō

1) to exercise, practise, to be busy with, carry on
a) to undertake, to do
2) to accomplish, perform
a) to commit, perpetrate
3) to manage public affairs, transact public business
a) to exact tribute, revenue, debts
4) to act

Once again, I ask, what version has the word "habitually". I am not one for rewriting Scripture.That is what it means as #1 in your list of meanings, therefore, it is not "rewriting Scripture", but interpreting what the author meant.
Christians do not exercise, practise, to be busy with, carry on with sin.




The "sin" which "dwels in him" are his own affections which he knows to be unlawful; hance, sinOk, I'd even agree with that. Paul also says it is no longer he that does it.Paul is not denying that he sins or was sinning, so you do not agree.



Paul is not passing the blaim on sin, but calling the affections as sin.
Sin is not an entity which works without ones consent as you supose.

Paul does not disown the sin, but is telling us that with the mind, he is
warring against the standard of his moral conscience or the law of his mind(V.25) as he delights in the law of God after the inward man which is his actual being as a Pharasee, he truly agrees to the righteous requirements of the Law of God warring against the law of his mind (V.23), and with the flesh, he serves the requirements of my own fleshly desires, which is sin (V.25).Once again, Paul says it is no longer he that commits sin.It ain't asying that sin is doing the actual sinning in Romans 7:17 & 20.
Rom 7:15For that which I do I know not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:20Now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but my own fleshly desires dwelling in me.


That which Paul "would not" is sin; Sin can not actually sin because it is not a moral entity with a law to transfress.


Paul is actually saying that when he was in the flesh, his sympathy for his unlawful affections animated, or moved him; calling the flesh "members" which we sin with.
When we submitt to those unlawful affections, they bring forth fruit unto death (V.5), which is sin.



if it is a pre-salvation experience, and Paul said he doesn't sin, but the sin in his flesh does, then those who are pre-salvation do not commit sin.Sin can not sin, because sin not a moral entity with a law to transgress.
Your interpretation is so very wrong.


Christ was never needed if this was pre-salvation.Only with your interpretation.

Yukerboy
Jan 27th 2009, 09:43 PM
That is what it means as #1 in your list of meanings, therefore, it is not "rewriting Scripture", but interpreting what the author meant.
Christians do not exercise, practise, to be busy with, carry on with sin.

That list i from the Strong's concordance. SO yes, it means to act. To commit sin. However, the definition nor the Scripture has habitually, yet, to make the Scripture fit your dogma, you add to the words of Scripture.


It ain't asying that sin is doing the actual sinning in Romans 7:17 & 20.
Rom 7:15For that which I do I know not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:20Now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but my own fleshly desires dwelling in me.


That which Paul "would not" is sin; Sin can not actually sin because it is not a moral entity with a law to transfress.


Paul is actually saying that when he was in the flesh, his sympathy for his unlawful affections animated, or moved him; calling the flesh "members" which we sin with.
When we submitt to those unlawful affections, they bring forth fruit unto death (V.5), which is sin.


I understand it may be difficult for one is stuck in dogma to read what the Scripture actually says.

Paul says that which he would not do in your own words is sin.

Agreed.

Now Paul follows that with it is no longer I who do it (SIN!), but the sin living within me that does it (SIN!).

You say it is sin, then you say that's not what Paul meant.


Sin can not sin, because sin not a moral entity with a law to transgress.
Your interpretation is so very wrong.

The sin abiding in the flesh sins, or Paul didn't mean he dpesn't want to sin.

Either read the Scripture for what it says or ignore it, your choice.


Only with your interpretation.

True, my literal, non-dogmatic interpretation. I interpret it as it reads, you interpret it by rewriting what doesn't work for you.

Once again, look at the signature.

If I make a statement that directly contradicts Scripture, odds are I am wrong.

You are wrong below and you are wrong above. And there's nothing wrong with being wrong. Just because you are wrong doesn't mean you became unsaved....

Jemand
Jan 27th 2009, 11:30 PM
Quote:
The man described in Rom. 7:7-25 is striving to keep the Law of Moses, and miserable failing to do so. That certainly was not Paul’s experience before his conversion to Christianity,



Really?

And here I thought Paul found himself striving to keep the law pre-conversion as he was circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. Yet, he failed miserably for he did not have love. He persecuted the church out of spite, out of hatred.

Yes, really. Paul, as a pre-conversion Jew, strove to keep the Law and succeeded in doing so according to his own words as an apostle, “as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.” The man in Rom. 7:14-25 is striving to keep the Law but miserably failing to do so. Paul loved God and He loved the Law and he kept the Law and he hated those who, in his understanding at the time, were breaking the Law and committing blasphemy.



Don't kid yourself, when Paul says that it is no longer he who sins but the sin living within his flesh that does it, he is not talking of people pre-conversion, for they sin.

The man in Rom. 7:14-25 is NOT denying that he sins; the man in Rom. 7:14-25 is contrasting what has intellect, his identity, his nous, wants to do but is failing to do and what the flesh, the material part of man responsible for the desire of such things as food, drink, physical comfort, respect, admiration, love, acceptance, sex, etc., the sarx, is driving him to do. It is essential to observe that this man, in his intellect, his identity as a man under the Law and desiring to obey it, is failing to do so. This is NOT the identity of a Christian.

Sirus
Jan 27th 2009, 11:36 PM
Slight correction here. I meant to say

"God's purpose was that both the natural and the spiritual be affected by his promise."

Sorry!

Correction....Flesh and blood will never inherit the Kingdom......and the spiritual be affected by his promise

PeaceHow is that a correction? I have never said otherwise.

BCF
Jan 28th 2009, 01:54 AM
Can't go one day without sinning?

In my Spirit.....yes. I can go all day and all year without sinning. But with my flesh I cannot go one second without sinning. If you can my friend....you are a better person then I will ever be.


Simple enough to sow to the spirit even when the flesh is screaming at you. Self control isn't for the spirit but for the flesh.

2 Peter 2
5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;


One cannot have self control with there flesh. One can only have self control while walking in the Spirit. This is why it is called one of the Fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23:

"22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23. gentleness, self control. Against such there is no Law."

What Peter says in those verses are indeed true. Everything that Peter mentions in those verses are qualities, anyone who is following Our Lord Jesus has. But not everyone who claims to be walking with our Lord Jesus has those qualities. Why? Because they really don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. The key phrase in those verses is at the end of verse 8:

"in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The only way one can make decisions "in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." one would need to be operating out of the Holy Spirit 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Why? Because of what the Fruit of the Spirit represents.

I have come to find out, that it is very important to remember that the Fruit of The Spirit represents what the Holy Spirit will generate within us if we will constantly yield to him. In other words....it is not our fruit, it is his fruit, although the fruit is generated in us and manifested through us. But I want to focus for now on what Paul writes at the end of verse 23 in Galatians 5. " Against such there is no Law." What is there no Law against (Mosaic Law or any other law)? The fruit of the Spirit. Why is this? Because the Fruit of the Spirit belongs to the Holy Spirit. Who is the Holy Spirit? God/Jesus (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). This has been true in scripture since the beginning of time.

When we read on from verse 23, when we are studying about the Fruit of the Spirit, and where it comes from, we can easily see that Paul in the next three verses tells us what the deciding factor is in this struggle......which happens to be our will. You see my friend, the sinful nature (Flesh) is the negative factor, and the Holy Spirit (God) is the positive factor, with our human will being the deciding factor. The process of continuous Christian liberty is never automatic as some may think. To begin with...the only reason one can be called a Christian is b/c of Christ crucifixion on Calvary. Then we became believers when we accepted the crucifixion of Christ. This is what Paul talks about in Galatians 5:24:

"24. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

From my study of this verse " have crucified" is referring to ones conversion which occurs to someone when they turn to Christ in real repentance. We can get this from what Paul writes in Romans 12:1-2. So....in saying that, it would be safe to say that every genuine Christian possesses the same potential power to be an overcomer in this battle between the sinful nature and the Holy Spirit. In the next verse (Galatians 5:25) Paul describes the way it becomes a continual reality when he writes:

"25. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

Every Christian does live in the realm of the Holy Spirit, otherwise one could not be a Christian. Paul tells us this in Romans 8:9:

"9. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

To prove all of this to be true, let's skip over to what Paul says in Galatians 6:3:

"3. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself."

What would make a person think that they are something?
Pride. Pride is the greatest enemy among all humans. Christians or non Christians, it does not matter. The reason for this is b/c, not only does it cause some fallen believers to refuse the offered assistance of Spiritual people, but it also causes many Christians to look down on those who have fallen. Either way, this is a mistake which applies to both the fallen person who thinks he or she is capable of being restored without the help of a Spiritual person, and the believer who becomes judgmental when they view the failures of other Christians. Nobody has no excuse for going to either extreme, and if we do, we are yielding to the sinful nature that we carry. Which is just was Paul was talking about in Romans 7, which as already been covered in this thread.

So to answer your question of "Can't go one day without sinning?" Absolutely not. Why? Because I am a human with pride which I do yield to from time to time, simply because I am not a perfect person. To claim to be would be calling one, self righteous. And the scripture says that is a sin also.

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Jan 28th 2009, 03:18 AM
In my Spirit.....yes. I can go all day and all year without sinning. But with my flesh I cannot go one second without sinning. If you can my friend....you are a better person then I will ever be.

So to answer your question of "Can't go one day without sinning?" Absolutely not. Why? Because I am a human with pride which I do yield to from time to time, simply because I am not a perfect person. To claim to be would be calling one, self righteous. And the scripture says that is a sin also.

God Bless,

Dave

Sin is a known and willful transgression against a divine law of Almighty God. James also teaches us that one is tempted before they can commit sin, therefore sin is proven to be a known transgression.

Sin is not something that "just happens" or "happens by accident," but rather it is a known violation of the law of God. Some people claim that you can sin and "not know it," but that is untrue. An individual will know as to whether or not they have committed sin.

As for separating the spirit from the flesh, you say your Spirit does not sin but your flesh does? That doesn't make sense. Did you sin in the Spirit before you were saved? Can you give an example? If an individual truly has the Spirit of God, they will not commit.

An individual doesn't sin because they are human, they sin because they are a sinner. Just as one murder makes you a murderer, one sin makes you a sinner, regardless of any profession one may claim.

Adam & Eve did not commit sin by accident, nor did they ignorantly end up in a sinful state. They transgressed against the Divine law of Almighty God. They KNEW that if they ate of the forbidden fruit, that they would die spiritually. The serpent deceived them and stated that "thou shalt NOT surely die." Unfortunately the serpent deceived them, and Almighty God told Adam & Eve that in the same day that they ate of the fruit, they would die. Therefore that shows that sin in fact does produce a spiritual death, and a spiritual death results in separation from Almighty God.

I usually post scriptures to prove all my points, but in this post I'm not going to . I don't have a Bible with me right now, and scriptures are usually ignored anyway.

I John 3 states that whosoever is born of God [born again] does not commit sin, and no that does not mean habitual sin. It means one single sin. If a Christian were to commit sin, sin forfeits their salvation and they become a sinner. And we know that all sinners are commanded to come to repentance, but the righteous [those free from sin] are not called to repentance.

Jemand
Jan 28th 2009, 04:35 AM
In first-century Hellenistic thought, the σαρχ (flesh) is the material part of man responsible for the desire of such things as food, drink, physical comfort, respect, admiration, love, acceptance, sex, etc. Therefore Paul used the word σαρχ (flesh) to express that concept, sometimes with emphasis on the material itself, and sometimes with emphasis on the desires for which it is responsible. When these desires were contrary to the desires of God for the man, we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the Spirit, the two often opposing sources of desire. When these desires were contrary to the desires of the intellect, the rational part of man, the νους (mind), we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the mind and its desires (Rom. 7:25).

Christ, in His humanity, shared this material part of man with all men (Rom. 1:3, 8:3), but He never yielded to the desires for which it is responsible. Paul taught that Christians are to identify with Christ through identifying with His death and resurrection, and to yield as Christ did, not to the desires of the flesh that result in sin, but to the desires of the Spirit that result in righteousness.

The fleshly man is the man who allows the desires of the flesh to rule his daily life; the spiritual man is the man who allows the Holy Spirit to rule his daily life, he is the man who is walking by the Spirit—and this man will not carry out the desire of the flesh, and hence he will not sin (Gal. 5:16).

Moreover, we as Christians, are commanded to walk by the Spirit. Those Christians who consistently obey that command consistently live lives free from sin. Those Christians who do not consistently obey that command live lives in which sin is a daily occurrence, and many of them believe that such a life is the norm for a Christian—indeed, they do not believe that an alternative even exists.

Jemand
Jan 28th 2009, 04:57 AM
I John 3 states that whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, and no that does not mean habitual sin. It means one single sin....
Dear friend,

[B]I must disagree with you. The verse that you are referring to is 1 John 3:9 which reads, in the Updated NASB,

1 John 3:9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The Greek word ποιει translated here as ‘practices’ is in the Greek present tense which is different from the English present tense in that the Greek present tense stresses the continuity of the action being described. In this case, the action is literally ‘doing.’ Therefore, a very literal rendering would be, “No one who is born of God continuously does sin, because....”

BCF
Jan 28th 2009, 06:28 AM
Yes and spiritually following after the Spirit brings fruit in the Natural.

Yes.....this I agree with.


Like it or not. Without the natural, faith is dead.


This I differ with you. The Holy Spirit was not poured out by God unto the Galatians b/c of their good works. Neither did God work mighty miracles among them b/c of their good works. We find Paul writing just that to us in Galatians 3:5:

"5. Therefore He (God) who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of Faith?"

From this verse we can see that God obviously did pour out His Spirit and performed miracles, b/c the Galatians responded to God in Faith, not b/c they were attempting to keep the Mosaic Law. Faith does not come from our Natural....it comes from our Spirit. If Faith came from our Natural as you say....there would be something that we would need to do in order to have that Faith. Faith in God only requires Love for Him...and that my friend only come from our Spirit....not our Natrual. God does not see us in the Natrual.....God only sees us in Spirit.


God cannot stand sin so much that the accuser of the brethren and original sinner could stand before God and reason with Him concerning Job.

Job 1:6:

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan also came among them."

Before you are use your quote as a defense for what I said here:

Originally Posted by BCF http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1959554#post1959554)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirus
That we are in fact crucified with Christ yet we live.

Spiritually we Live and follow our Lord Jesus Christ and His Commandments, not in the Natural. In the Natural we sin. Shoot, in the Natural, God even needed to turn His back on His only Son Our Lord, when He got crucified on the cross, Matthew 27:46:

"46. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Jesus Being God, could not even stand to look at Himself in the Natural, b/c it was covered with our sins. God cannot stand sin, not even to look at it. God needed to turn His back on the Natural side of Jesus, and look at Our Lord Jesus from the Spiritual, which was sinless.
This my friend is all in scripture.


we are going to need to come to a conclusion of who the sons of God were that were having this meeting with God in Job 1:6.


There's a diff? No matter how you dance around it the natural was affected by faith. Faith is substance and evidence. Faith is not something that is not seen. I know that it is popular to teach that but it is not biblical. Read Hebrews 11 and tell me what substance and evidence was not seen.

I'm not saying that the Natural is not effected by ones Faith. What I am saying is that Faith does not come from our Natural. Faith comes from our Spirit, which allows our Natural to show our Faith.


Are you joking? Why don't we listen to it, because we are possessed? Hardly. We can listen to the flesh anytime we want to. If what you say is true no one with the Spirit would ever sin. The only way is by faith (trust) in that God says we are dead and do not have to sin because we are crucified. 'Sanctified by faith in me'


No I'm not joking....I do not joke about scripture. I think I answered this in my last post to threebigrocks. If not....let me know.


When Adam sinned physical death was certain and God required sacrifice and atonement for sin.

When Adam sinned....he had a Spiritual death with God. Spiritual death was certain.....not physical.


Do we see man in relationship with God after Adam sinned? Absolutely.

That's right...we do. But not through Spirit. God came down and spoke to Moses, Abraham all the prophets Himself. If you don't know that my friend.....you need to read your OT again.


The glorified flesh is glorified but it is physical and flesh and bone.

Can you provide scripture that says that the Glorified Body of Jesus was flesh and bone.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 28th 2009, 06:41 AM
.

An individual doesn't sin because they are human, they sin because they are a sinner. Just as one murder makes you a murderer, one sin makes you a sinner, regardless of any profession one may claim.

Before Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden....they were two humans, with flesh, that were sinless at the time.

You mention here:


Adam & Eve did not commit sin by accident, nor did they ignorantly end up in a sinful state. They transgressed against the Divine law of Almighty God.

My question to you is....what was the Divine Law that God gave to them.....that they transgressed against?

Unless you are saying that when they ate from the tree of life they went against Gods Law. But I don't believe that God made that a Law. That was a choice that could be made.....not a Law.

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 07:34 AM
Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There is the Law God set forth for Adam and Eve. They were commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

They transgressed the Law God had set forth for them to obey.

By the way, they did not eat from the tree of life. God put them out of the garden of Eden before they could eat of it.

faithfulfriend
Jan 28th 2009, 01:21 PM
Dear friend,

I must disagree with you. The verse that you are referring to is 1 John 3:9 which reads, in the Updated NASB,

1 John 3:9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The Greek word ποιει translated here as ‘practices’ is in the Greek present tense which is different from the English present tense in that the Greek present tense stresses the continuity of the action being described. In this case, the action is literally ‘doing.’ Therefore, a very literal rendering would be, “No one who is born of God continuously does sin, because....”

Correct, but only partially so.

The Greek present tense ALSO has the significance of a process as well as repeated action. Therefore the translation is "He who is in the process of sinning OR who habitually sins is of the devil.

Yukerboy
Jan 28th 2009, 01:27 PM
Yes, really. Paul, as a pre-conversion Jew, strove to keep the Law and succeeded in doing so according to his own words as an apostle, “as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.” The man in Rom. 7:14-25 is striving to keep the Law but miserably failing to do so. Paul loved God and He loved the Law and he kept the Law and he hated those who, in his understanding at the time, were breaking the Law and committing blasphemy.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

So, what righteousness is found in the law? Paul was clearly implying that as to the law, he could not nor did obtain righteousness, but in the eyes of the Pharisees, blameless he was.

Don't kid yourself, when Paul says that it is no longer he who sins but the sin living within his flesh that does it, he is not talking of people pre-conversion, for they sin.


The man in Rom. 7:14-25 is NOT denying that he sins; the man in Rom. 7:14-25 is contrasting what has intellect, his identity, his nous, wants to do but is failing to do and what the flesh, the material part of man responsible for the desire of such things as food, drink, physical comfort, respect, admiration, love, acceptance, sex, etc., the sarx, is driving him to do. It is essential to observe that this man, in his intellect, his identity as a man under the Law and desiring to obey it, is failing to do so. This is NOT the identity of a Christian.

Follow closely, this can be difficult to understand when one is so attached to their doctrines of men.

Paul says "For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Now, we do agree that Paul desires to do good but does not carry it out, correct? He does the sin he does not want to do.

Then, when Paul says it is no longer he that does the sin, but the sin living within him, you completely ignore.

Which is fine. Let's ignore it and agree that this is a preconversion person. Let's say that you are right, I am wrong and this preconversion person wants to do good, but continues to do evil.

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

So, this passage completely and utterly demolishes our belif. Those who live according to the sinful nature (which is all men preconversion) have their minds set on what the nature desires.

What did Paul have his mind set on in Romans 7? To do good or evil?

Those controlled by the sinful nature CANNOT (IOW, impossible) submit to God's law. Yet, you must claim that a person preconversion submits to God's law, but can't follow through.

Finally, does the Spirit desire that you do good or evil? Those controlled by the spirit have their mind set on what the spirit desires. What does the man in ROmans 7 have his mind set on? Does he want to do good or evil?

If you are correct, then Paul lied in Romans 7 or Romans 8.

If I am correct, then Paul never lies.

BCF
Jan 28th 2009, 02:32 PM
Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There is the Law God set forth for Adam and Eve. They were commanded not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

They transgressed the Law God had set forth for them to obey.

By the way, they did not eat from the tree of life. God put them out of the garden of Eden before they could eat of it.

I disagree. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God and according to His likeness. Genesis 1:27;

"27. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

This was done before man sinned. At this time all man was, was a creation in the image of God. What was that image? According to scripture in John 4:24, it is a Spirit.

"24. God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

No matter how we want to look at it....man was first created in the image of God, and that image was not flesh b/c God is not flesh, God is Spirit. Now...God did put flesh on man.... yes, but that was not in the image of God. That was in the image of man. The scripture tells us this Genesis 5:1-3

"1. This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God."

Verse one confirms that Adam were first created in Spirit (likeness of God)

"2. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created."

Verse two confirms that God put flesh on His Creation b/c God named His creation Mankind b/c it was a living Soul.

"3. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth."

What is the image of Man? Flesh. What is the image of God? Spirit. Adam was created in Gods image which was sinless up until he ate from the tree. Seth was born in Adam's image which was sin. Why? Because it is our flesh that is sin. When Adam ate from the tree of good and evil, Adam died Spiritually not Physically. Adam did not have to eat from the tree. Adam could have said no. There was nothing keeping Adam from eating from that tree put Adam. God did not give Adam a law in the Garden...God gave Adam a choice to Love God or himself. If I tell my son that he is not allowed to go across the street b/c he may get hit by a car and die, did I give my son a law to keep? No.......I gave him a choice to love his dad enough to listen to what he says. And that is all God did with Adam in the Garden....and Adam picked himself.

God Bless,

Dave

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 03:52 PM
I disagree. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God and according to His likeness. Genesis 1:27;

"27. So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

This was done before man sinned. At this time all man was, was a creation in the image of God. What was that image? According to scripture in John 4:24, it is a Spirit.

"24. God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

No matter how we want to look at it....man was first created in the image of God, and that image was not flesh b/c God is not flesh, God is Spirit. Now...God did put flesh on man.... yes, but that was not in the image of God. That was in the image of man. The scripture tells us this Genesis 5:1-3

"1. This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God."

Verse one confirms that Adam were first created in Spirit (likeness of God)

"2. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created."

Verse two confirms that God put flesh on His Creation b/c God named His creation Mankind b/c it was a living Soul.

"3. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth."

What is the image of Man? Flesh. What is the image of God? Spirit. Adam was created in Gods image which was sinless up until he ate from the tree. Seth was born in Adam's image which was sin. Why? Because it is our flesh that is sin. When Adam ate from the tree of good and evil, Adam died Spiritually not Physically. Adam did not have to eat from the tree. Adam could have said no. There was nothing keeping Adam from eating from that tree put Adam. God did not give Adam a law in the Garden...God gave Adam a choice to Love God or himself. If I tell my son that he is not allowed to go across the street b/c he may get hit by a car and die, did I give my son a law to keep? No.......I gave him a choice to love his dad enough to listen to what he says. And that is all God did with Adam in the Garden....and Adam picked himself.

God Bless,

Dave
Adam and Eve were sinless at the time they were created. But, they transgressed the law God set forth to them. God said "Thou shalt not..." That was a commandment set in stone. God even told them what the consequences would be if they broke that law. They ignored that Law that God had given "Thou shalt not"

Just as the Israelites were commanded to follow certain guidelines when God said in Exodus 20 "Thou Shalt" and "Thou shalt not" Adam and Eve were commanded to follow a certain command when God said "Thou shalt not.

Just as the command of God in Exodus 20 was the law for the Israelites, the command in Genesis 2 was law for Adam and Eve.

BCF
Jan 28th 2009, 05:06 PM
Adam and Eve were sinless at the time they were created. But, they transgressed the law God set forth to them. God said "Thou shalt not..." That was a commandment set in stone. God even told them what the consequences would be if they broke that law. They ignored that Law that God had given "Thou shalt not"

Just as the Israelites were commanded to follow certain guidelines when God said in Exodus 20 "Thou Shalt" and "Thou shalt not" Adam and Eve were commanded to follow a certain command when God said "Thou shalt not.

Just as the command of God in Exodus 20 was the law for the Israelites, the command in Genesis 2 was law for Adam and Eve.


That can't be. The reason that God gave the law to Moses in the first place on the stone tablets, was to help get humans to see their need of Gods Grace. God never intended for man to be able to get right with him by keeping the law.

This was not the case with Adam and Eve in the Garden. God never expected them to eat from the tree in the first place. There was no reason to give a law. They were pure and sinless just like God was. God thought they would obey Him, just like the angels did.

God Bless,

Dave

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 05:12 PM
That can't be. The reason that God gave the law to Moses in the first place on the stone tablets, was to help get humans to see their need of Gods Grace. God never intended for man to be able to get right with him by keeping the law.

This was not the case with Adam and Eve in the Garden. God never expected them to eat from the tree in the first place. There was no reason to give a law. They were pure and sinless just like God was. God thought they would obey Him, just like the angels did.

God Bless,

Dave

If there was no need for the law given to Adam and Eve, God would not have said, "Thou shalt not."

BCF
Jan 28th 2009, 05:33 PM
If there was no need for the law given to Adam and Eve, God would not have said, "Thou shalt not."

Why would God make a Law to something that He created in His own image and likeness. Their would be no reason for it. God does not make laws for Himself to follow b/c God does no wrong.

God Bless

Dave

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 05:37 PM
Why would God make a Law to something that He created in His own image and likeness. Their would be no reason for it. God does not make laws for Himself to follow b/c God does no wrong.

God Bless

Dave
Why say "Thou shalt not..."?

Also, you stated that God thought Adam and Eve would obey Him. God thought they would obey Him is an incorrect assumption. God knows all things. He knew man would eat of that tree in an act of disobedience.

faithfulfriend
Jan 28th 2009, 06:11 PM
Why would God make a Law to something that He created in His own image and likeness. Their would be no reason for it. God does not make laws for Himself to follow b/c God does no wrong.

God Bless

Dave

Because Adam & Eve still had a CHOICE.

They CHOSE to disobey God, and therefore lost their purity/sinlessness.

Sin always has been, and always will be a choice.

Yukerboy
Jan 28th 2009, 07:30 PM
1 Timothy 1:9
knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Understand why God gave commands and who the commands are for and it all comes together.


Because Adam & Eve still had a CHOICE.

They CHOSE to disobey God, and therefore lost their purity/sinlessness.

Sin always has been, and always will be a choice.

If sin is a choice, then our God failed. God said all have sinned. If one can choose not to sin, then God has lied. God said He bound all men over to sin. If one could not sin, then God failed in His binding.

faithfulfriend
Jan 28th 2009, 07:46 PM
If sin is a choice, then our God failed. God said all have sinned. If one can choose not to sin, then God has lied. God said He bound all men over to sin. If one could not sin, then God failed in His binding.

God didn't fail because man sins, man failed (and continues to fail) God because he sins.

Paul is expressing the natural, wretched state of all mankind in Rom. 3:10-18, whether Jew or Gentile, “for all have sinned [past tense] and come short of the glory of God,” as he states in verse 23.

Thank God, this is not a state anyone need remain in! Paul goes on in verses 24, 25 and 26 to present the plan of salvation, mankind’s deliverance from their sinful state.

Paul said in Romans 6:20, “For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.” When it comes to sinners, there is none righteous, no not one, that includes those professing to be sinning Christians!

“For as by one man’s [Adam] disobedience many were made sinners [for all inherited his sinful nature], so by the obedience of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.” Rom. 5:19.


Adam & Eve were free moral agents. The Biblical account of the testing and fall of Adam & Eve reveals that they were created as free moral agents with the power of choice. (Gen. 3:1-6, 17-19). The very fact they were given the opportunity for choice, a choice involving a moral decision, proves they were free moral agents. There can be no exercise of freedom without the opportunity to choose otherwise. The occasion of choice gives opportunity to exercise the power of free will. Love for God can only be proved through obedience voluntarily given. A forced obedience is not a true test of character. Only when one does right while having the power to do otherwise reveals one's true character. Even though Adam & Eve were created pure, their purity did not determine their conduct. Their will does that. This account of Adam & Eve also shows that their purity and closeness to God could be, and was lost. Just as this original pair was free moral agents, responsible for their actions, likewise so are we today, "choose this day whom ye will serve" (Joshua 24:15). "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" (Deut. 30:19). The scriptures teach throughout that we are responsible to God for our conduct. We are promised a reward for faithful service and punishment for disobedience. Such responsibility is possible only on the grounds that we have the power of free choice as to whether or not we will obey God. This power finds expression in the exercise of our will. It is freedom of choice that gives character to sin and virtue. If our will is determined by God, then goodness deserves no reward and disobedience [sin] deserves no penalty.

Because we inherited a sinful nature, our freedom of choice is limited prior to receiving salvation. Through Christ, our nature can be changed, and those changed are said to be free indeed (II Peter 1:4, John 8:32-36). Because of this inherited depraved nature, we all sooner or later lost our childhood innocence. (Thus "all have sinned"). Therefore, when unsaved we were without a disposition to love and serve God. Through coming in contact with the gospel, choosing to heed the call to repentance and getting our heart changed through full salvation, put us in the condition where we could fulfill our God-given purpose of voluntarily loving and glorifying God.

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 08:14 PM
God didn't fail because man sins, man failed (and continues to fail) God because he sins.

Paul is expressing the natural, wretched state of all mankind in Rom. 3:10-18, whether Jew or Gentile, “for all have sinned [past tense] and come short of the glory of God,” as he states in verse 23.

Thank God, this is not a state anyone need remain in! Paul goes on in verses 24, 25 and 26 to present the plan of salvation, mankind’s deliverance from their sinful state.

Paul said in Romans 6:20, “For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.” When it comes to sinners, there is none righteous, no not one, that includes those professing to be sinning Christians!

“For as by one man’s [Adam] disobedience many were made sinners [for all inherited his sinful nature], so by the obedience of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.” Rom. 5:19.


Adam & Eve were free moral agents. The Biblical account of the testing and fall of Adam & Eve reveals that they were created as free moral agents with the power of choice. (Gen. 3:1-6, 17-19). The very fact they were given the opportunity for choice, a choice involving a moral decision, proves they were free moral agents. There can be no exercise of freedom without the opportunity to choose otherwise. The occasion of choice gives opportunity to exercise the power of free will. Love for God can only be proved through obedience voluntarily given. A forced obedience is not a true test of character. Only when one does right while having the power to do otherwise reveals one's true character. Even though Adam & Eve were created pure, their purity did not determine their conduct. Their will does that. This account of Adam & Eve also shows that their purity and closeness to God could be, and was lost. Just as this original pair was free moral agents, responsible for their actions, likewise so are we today, "choose this day whom ye will serve" (Joshua 24:15). "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" (Deut. 30:19). The scriptures teach throughout that we are responsible to God for our conduct. We are promised a reward for faithful service and punishment for disobedience. Such responsibility is possible only on the grounds that we have the power of free choice as to whether or not we will obey God. This power finds expression in the exercise of our will. It is freedom of choice that gives character to sin and virtue. If our will is determined by God, then goodness deserves no reward and disobedience [sin] deserves no penalty.

Because we inherited a sinful nature, our freedom of choice is limited prior to receiving salvation. Through Christ, our nature can be changed, and those changed are said to be free indeed (II Peter 1:4, John 8:32-36). Because of this inherited depraved nature, we all sooner or later lost our childhood innocence. (Thus "all have sinned"). Therefore, when unsaved we were without a disposition to love and serve God. Through coming in contact with the gospel, choosing to heed the call to repentance and getting our heart changed through full salvation, put us in the condition where we could fulfill our God-given purpose of voluntarily loving and glorifying God.
Amen! Well said. Freedom of Choice was in mankind from the day may was placed in the garden.

Although God commanded (original law) 'But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou mayest not eat' man still had a choice to obey God's command to not eat of that tree or to disobey the command.

BCF
Jan 28th 2009, 09:38 PM
Because Adam & Eve still had a CHOICE.

They CHOSE to disobey God, and therefore lost their purity/sinlessness.

Sin always has been, and always will be a choice.

I never said that Adam did not have a choice. In my post to CommanderRobey (post 118) I stated just that.



What is the image of Man? Flesh. What is the image of God? Spirit. Adam was created in Gods image which was sinless up until he ate from the tree. Seth was born in Adam's image which was sin. Why? Because it is our flesh that is sin. When Adam ate from the tree of good and evil, Adam died Spiritually not Physically. Adam did not have to eat from the tree. Adam could have said no. There was nothing keeping Adam from eating from that tree put Adam. God did not give Adam a law in the Garden...God gave Adam a choice to Love God or himself. If I tell my son that he is not allowed to go across the street b/c he may get hit by a car and die, did I give my son a law to keep? No.......I gave him a choice to love his dad enough to listen to what he says. And that is all God did with Adam in the Garden....and Adam picked himself.


What I do not believe is that God gave a law to Adam and Eve in the Garden. I believe God gave them a choice to be obedient to Him or not. Not a Law.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Jan 28th 2009, 09:51 PM
Why say "Thou shalt not..."?

Also, you stated that God thought Adam and Eve would obey Him. God thought they would obey Him is an incorrect assumption. God knows all things. He knew man would eat of that tree in an act of disobedience.

No I disagree. To say that God knew that they would eat of the tree would be saying that God created man to sin. This is not n scripture. After God made male and female in Genesis 1:27, God goes on to say in Genesis 1:31:

"31. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Here scripture tells me that a Holy sinless God looked back on everything that He had just created, and called all of it VERY GOOD. This would include the creation of man before the fall. If a Holy God would have known that His creation of man was going to go against Him, why did He call His creation VERY GOOD?

God would not call something VERY GOOD that was going to disobey Him. To do so would make God a lier and a sinner Himself.

God Bless,

Dave

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 10:04 PM
I never said that Adam did not have a choice. In my post to CommanderRobey (post 118) I stated just that.



What I do not believe is that God gave a law to Adam and Eve in the Garden. I believe God gave them a choice to be obedient to Him or not. Not a Law.

God Bless,

Dave

Since when is 'Thou shalt not' in the Word of God not a commandment? "Thou shalt not" is not a suggestion, but a command. "Thou shalt not eat..." was the law God set forth for Adam.

Even Jesus called the "Thou shalt not's" of the Bible commands.

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 10:08 PM
No I disagree. To say that God knew that they would eat of the tree would be saying that God created man to sin. This is not n scripture. After God made male and female in Genesis 1:27, God goes on to say in Genesis 1:31:

"31. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Here scripture tells me that a Holy sinless God looked back on everything that He had just created, and called all of it VERY GOOD. This would include the creation of man before the fall. If a Holy God would have known that His creation of man was going to go against Him, why did He call His creation VERY GOOD?

God would not call something VERY GOOD that was going to disobey Him. To do so would make God a lier and a sinner Himself.

God Bless,

Dave

At the time God said it was very good, they had not disobeyed Him, had they? It was very good before the disobedience of man.

If God did not know that Adam and Eve would eat of the tree before they ate of it, there would not have been a Lamb slain before the foundation of the world for the sins of man, now would there?

BCF
Jan 29th 2009, 12:06 AM
If God did not know that Adam and Eve would eat of the tree before they ate of it, there would not have been a Lamb slain before the foundation of the world for the sins of man, now would there?

Huh.......what for lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, b/c God knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin?

Jesus was slain for the sins of the world, and He is the Lamb of God. But, this was not b/c God knew that Adam and Eve was going to sin in the Garden. Jesus was sent b/c they sinned in the Garden. Somebody needed to make right what Adam made wrong. This was all done through Jesus.

Jesus was put through the same tests that Adam was put through. Matthew gives us three separate accounts in Matthew 4:3-11:

"3. Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread. 4. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. 5. Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6. and said to Him, If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: He shall give His angels charge over you, and, In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone. 7. Jesus said to him, It is written again, You shall not tempt the Lord thy God. 8. Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9. And he said to Him, All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me. 10. Then Jesus said to him, Away with you Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve. 11. Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him."

Scripture tell us in 1 Corinthians 15:45, that Jesus is the last or second Adam. Now.....before the fall of man, does not scripture teach us that the first Adam was made in the image of God? Well if this is true, well then that means that the first Adam was sinless, just like the second Adam (Jesus) was sinless also. The only difference between the two is that the first Adam....when he got tempted the very first time, he made a choice to go against God. When the second Adam was tempted the first, second, and third time, He did not make the choice to go against God. One sinned, the other did not.

So tell me...if God knew that Adam was going to sin, what was holding back the second Adam from doing the same thing?

God Bless,

Dave

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 12:28 AM
Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree... He did not suggest it. It was a law God set forth for Adam and Eve to obey. They chose to break the only law God told them to obey.

Thou shalt not means don't do it. Period.

RogerW
Jan 29th 2009, 01:01 AM
Huh.......what for lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, b/c God knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin?

Jesus was slain for the sins of the world, and He is the Lamb of God. But, this was not b/c God knew that Adam and Eve was going to sin in the Garden. Jesus was sent b/c they sinned in the Garden. Somebody needed to make right what Adam made wrong. This was all done through Jesus.

Jesus was put through the same tests that Adam was put through. Matthew gives us three separate accounts in Matthew 4:3-11:

"3. Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread. 4. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. 5. Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6. and said to Him, If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: He shall give His angels charge over you, and, In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone. 7. Jesus said to him, It is written again, You shall not tempt the Lord thy God. 8. Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9. And he said to Him, All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me. 10. Then Jesus said to him, Away with you Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve. 11. Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him."

Scripture tell us in 1 Corinthians 15:45, that Jesus is the last or second Adam. Now.....before the fall of man, does not scripture teach us that the first Adam was made in the image of God? Well if this is true, well then that means that the first Adam was sinless, just like the second Adam (Jesus) was sinless also. The only difference between the two is that the first Adam....when he got tempted the very first time, he made a choice to go against God. When the second Adam was tempted the first, second, and third time, He did not make the choice to go against God. One sinned, the other did not.

So tell me...if God knew that Adam was going to sin, what was holding back the second Adam from doing the same thing?

God Bless,

Dave

Hi Dave,

Have you ever asked why Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world? Christ as the slain Lamb is the remedy for all sin before creation, before any sin was committed. Why would God provide a remedy for the sin problem before the foundation of the world if He did not know whether or not it would be necessary?

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Jan 29th 2009, 05:25 AM
Like it or not. Without the natural, faith is dead. This I differ with you. The Holy Spirit was not poured out by God unto the Galatians b/c of their good works. Neither did God work mighty miracles among them b/c of their good works. We find Paul writing just that to us in Galatians 3:5:
I did not challenge this. I simply said faith is seen in the natural or it is not faith. Which you agreed with below

I'm not saying that the Natural is not effected by ones Faith. What I am saying is that Faith does not come from our Natural. Faith comes from our Spirit, which allows our Natural to show our Faith.
Yep!




God cannot stand sin so much that the accuser of the brethren and original sinner could stand before God and reason with Him concerning Job.Job 1:6:

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan also came among them."

Before you are use your quote as a defense for what I said here:

Originally Posted by BCF http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1959554#post1959554)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirus
That we are in fact crucified with Christ yet we live.

Spiritually we Live and follow our Lord Jesus Christ and His Commandments, not in the Natural. In the Natural we sin. Shoot, in the Natural, God even needed to turn His back on His only Son Our Lord, when He got crucified on the cross, Matthew 27:46:

"46. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Jesus Being God, could not even stand to look at Himself in the Natural, b/c it was covered with our sins. God cannot stand sin, not even to look at it. God needed to turn His back on the Natural side of Jesus, and look at Our Lord Jesus from the Spiritual, which was sinless.
This my friend is all in scripture.


we are going to need to come to a conclusion of who the sons of God were that were having this meeting with God in Job 1:6.
Why concern ourselves with who the sons of God are, even though that is more than obvious? Satan is there and that's who we are talking about. We know Satan had sinned already and was there in heaven reasoning with God. If you can't dispute that, lets move on.




Are you joking? Why don't we listen to it, because we are possessed? Hardly. We can listen to the flesh anytime we want to. If what you say is true no one with the Spirit would ever sin. The only way is by faith (trust) in that God says we are dead and do not have to sin because we are crucified. 'Sanctified by faith in me' No I'm not joking....I do not joke about scripture. I think I answered this in my last post to threebigrocks. If not....let me know.
What you said proved what I said. You can listen to your flesh anytime you want to in fact you claim that is all you do. Makes me wonder how you have time for the Spirit. If you are sinning and walking after the flesh every second, when do you make time for the Spirit? :hmm:




When Adam sinned physical death was certain and God required sacrifice and atonement for sin. When Adam sinned....he had a Spiritual death with God. Spiritual death was certain.....not physical.Where might I find that spiritual death? What is your definition of spiritual death and what scripture do you have to back it up. Also, since man still had a relationship with God, if we go back to Adam how was sin covered? I answered all this already but you didn't comment on 'required sacrifice and atonement for sin' and relationship being restored to some degree.




Do we see man in relationship with God after Adam sinned? Absolutely. That's right...we do. But not through Spirit. God came down and spoke to Moses, Abraham all the prophets Himself. If you don't know that my friend.....you need to read your OT again.
Not through the Spirit? Really? How did we get the Scriptures? How did the prophets speak? How did God accomplish His will and purposes? If the natural man cannot understand spiritual things but by the Spirit how was all this done? By spiritual men? Men with the Spirit? Yes. There are a hundred passages!!! Looks like you are the one in need of reading the OT again.




The glorified flesh is glorified but it is physical and flesh and bone. Can you provide scripture that says that the Glorified Body of Jesus was flesh and bone.
Certainly. I never say something I don't have scripture for, and I never ask something I don't already have the answer to and scripture to back up.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Sirus
Jan 29th 2009, 06:33 AM
Can you provide scripture that says that the Glorified Body of Jesus was flesh and bone.Regarding this, let me ask you, is Jesus Judge because He is God, or because He is sinless man? Who was ALL things put in subjection to and given glory and honor?

BCF
Jan 29th 2009, 06:25 PM
Through coming in contact with the gospel, choosing to heed the call to repentance and getting our heart changed through full salvation, put us in the condition where we could fulfill our God-given purpose of voluntarily loving and glorifying God.

Here is one reason that we differ my friend. But I not only differ with you, but with many others. The OSAS teaching for one is another. My reason for this is b/c I can find a scripture in Philippians 2:12-16, where Paul writes:

"12. Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13. for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14. Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15. that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16. holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain."

Working out ones salvation with fear and trembling is something that Paul did, and it is something that every Born Again Christian should be doing. But if one walks around claiming to be unable to sin b/c they are saved, where is ones fear of God? Jesus said in Luke 12:4-5:

"4. And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Here Jesus tells us to fear God, but yet some want to try and say that they are so righteous in there sinful bodies, and sinful nature. Well if they are, where does the fear of God come into play in there lives? One can't have it both ways my friend. One can't have a sinful nature, and claim to live righteous and sinless lives, while claiming to fear God. One either has a sinful nature, and lives a sinful life with there Natrual body, and fears God, or one lives a righteous life with there Natrual body, and does not sin, and has no fear of God. It is not both. Even though Paul claimed, and did live his life with fear and trembling of our Lord through out his ministry. Some people for some reason or another believe that they are better then what Paul was. When Paul started his Ministry in Corinth he teaches us just that.

When we read about Paul and his ministry on Corinth, his stay there was eighteen months. We get that from Acts 18:8-11:

"8. Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing believed and were baptized. 9. Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; 10. for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city. 11. And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Paul's concern in Corinth was that the Corinthian churches would not have Biblical Completion. What is Biblical Completion? It is when a Church lives continually by God's power, and not on the wisdom of humans. This was excactly why Paul continued to preach and teach in the Biblical fashion of fear and trembling for eighteen months in Corinth. Paul says so in 1 Corinthians 2:3:

"3. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling."

Now....don't get me wrong. I don't mean to say that Paul was a physically weak individual. Anyone who studies or reads carefully all the details about Paul's ministry, would have to admit that only a physically strong person could have done all that he did. What I believe that Paul was referring to when he said "in weakness" was, his total dependence on God, rather then on himself. As is the case when Paul says " in fear". I do not believe that Paul was afraid of anything, whether it was people of the devil, of demons, of circumstances, nothing. Once again a careful study of Paul's ministry would tell anyone that Paul was not afraid of anyone or anything but God. Paul's fear of God was that he would not be able to accomplish Gods purpose for him in Corinth. In fact, when Paul makes the statement in verse three " in much trembling" shows that Paul's concern was extreme. Paul had a constant fear for God b/c he knew that eternal souls of people were hanging in the balance, and that only God could rescue them from any eternity in hell.

Paul goes on to write in 1 Corinthians 2:4:

"4. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power."

Paul knew he could not deliver people from sin through some fancy speech or any wisdom from his own mind. He wanted the Holy Spirit to work miracles among his listeners, and to manifest his power among them. This is not something that is just needed when a Church is started, but is something that is needed continually throughout the entire history of any Church. Paul knew that the Churches in Corinth had a Biblical start to them, b/c they had believers who placed there Faith in God for there Church. Paul's concern was if whether or not these Churches would continue with their Faith in God, rather then in the wisdom of man, as he writes in 1 Corinthians 2:5:

"5. that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."

Paul believed that these Corinthian believers were in danger of becoming unbiblical by placing their faith in people rather than in God. Only God's power (God's supernatural ability) can keep any human in Spiritual victory. The quickest way to stop being victorious is for one to place it's faith in themselves or other people. This is what happen in the Garden with Adam. Instead of Adam placing his Faith in God, and what God said about eating from the tree, Adam placed his Faith in himself.

If one goes around believing that one cannot sin, while living in a natural body, with a natural mind, with a natural will and emotions. How does one then live out there salvation with fear and trembling? One can't. And if one can't, then one can't have fear of God. And to not fear God my friend is a very dangerous thing to do.

We must fear God my friend. God holds the controls to where we live, after this life is over.

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Jan 29th 2009, 06:36 PM
Here is one reason that we differ my friend. But I not only differ with you, but with many others. The OSAS teaching for one is another. My reason for this is b/c I can find a scripture in Philippians 2:12-16, where Paul writes:

"12. Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13. for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14. Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15. that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16. holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain."

Working out ones salvation with fear and trembling is something that Paul did, and it is something that every Born Again Christian should be doing. But if one walks around claiming to be unable to sin b/c they are saved, where is ones fear of God? Jesus said in Luke 12:4-5:

"4. And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Here Jesus tells us to fear God, but yet some want to try and say that they are so righteous in there sinful bodies, and sinful nature. Well if they are, where does the fear of God come into play in there lives? One can't have it both ways my friend. One can't have a sinful nature, and claim to live righteous and sinless lives, while claiming to fear God. One either has a sinful nature, and lives a sinful life with there Natrual body, and fears God, or one lives a righteous life with there Natrual body, and does not sin, and has no fear of God. It is not both. Even though Paul claimed, and did live his life with fear and trembling of our Lord through out his ministry. Some people for some reason or another believe that they are better then what Paul was. When Paul started his Ministry in Corinth he teaches us just that.

When we read about Paul and his ministry on Corinth, his stay there was eighteen months. We get that from Acts 18:8-11:

"8. Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing believed and were baptized. 9. Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; 10. for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city. 11. And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Paul's concern in Corinth was that the Corinthian churches would not have Biblical Completion. What is Biblical Completion? It is when a Church lives continually by God's power, and not on the wisdom of humans. This was excactly why Paul continued to preach and teach in the Biblical fashion of fear and trembling for eighteen months in Corinth. Paul says so in 1 Corinthians 2:3:

"3. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling."

Now....don't get me wrong. I don't mean to say that Paul was a physically weak individual. Anyone who studies or reads carefully all the details about Paul's ministry, would have to admit that only a physically strong person could have done all that he did. What I believe that Paul was referring to when he said "in weakness" was, his total dependence on God, rather then on himself. As is the case when Paul says " in fear". I do not believe that Paul was afraid of anything, whether it was people of the devil, of demons, of circumstances, nothing. Once again a careful study of Paul's ministry would tell anyone that Paul was not afraid of anyone or anything but God. Paul's fear of God was that he would not be able to accomplish Gods purpose for him in Corinth. In fact, when Paul makes the statement in verse three " in much trembling" shows that Paul's concern was extreme. Paul had a constant fear for God b/c he knew that eternal souls of people were hanging in the balance, and that only God could rescue them from any eternity in hell.

Paul goes on to write in 1 Corinthians 2:4:

"4. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power."

Paul knew he could not deliver people from sin through some fancy speech or any wisdom from his own mind. He wanted the Holy Spirit to work miracles among his listeners, and to manifest his power among them. This is not something that is just needed when a Church is started, but is something that is needed continually throughout the entire history of any Church. Paul knew that the Churches in Corinth had a Biblical start to them, b/c they had believers who placed there Faith in God for there Church. Paul's concern was if whether or not these Churches would continue with their Faith in God, rather then in the wisdom of man, as he writes in 1 Corinthians 2:5:

"5. that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."

Paul believed that these Corinthian believers were in danger of becoming unbiblical by placing their faith in people rather than in God. Only God's power (God's supernatural ability) can keep any human in Spiritual victory. The quickest way to stop being victorious is for one to place it's faith in themselves or other people. This is what happen in the Garden with Adam. Instead of Adam placing his Faith in God, and what God said about eating from the tree, Adam placed his Faith in himself.

If one goes around believing that one cannot sin, while living in a natural body, with a natural mind, with a natural will and emotions. How does one then live out there salvation with fear and trembling? One can't. And if one can't, then one can't have fear of God. And to not fear God my friend is a very dangerous thing to do.

We must fear God my friend. God holds the controls to where we live, after this life is over.

God Bless,

Dave

Actually I have a great fear of God, so you're misunderstanding my position.

The fear of God in me is so great that I don't commit sin because I know it separates me from God. Sin is disobedience to the law of Christ, whether sin is commission or omission. Therefore to have a true fear of God, one keeps Gods commandments, judgments, and statutes. God commands us not to sin, therefore those who fear Him will obey his commandment, and out of a loving and willing heart.

I John 3 describes the attributes of a Christian, and Paul testifies of living holy [sinless] in Romans chapters 6 & 8. Another misunderstanding you may possess is that it's not that I CAN'T sin [meaning I'm unable to], but it's that I CHOOSE NOT to sin when I am tempted. Resisting temptation proves loyalty, love, and service to God, as well as fear.

Unbelief is very strong, and you don't believe that living sinless is possible, therefore it will always be impossible. Without faith it's impossible to please God, without the Holy Spirit, it's impossible to live sinless.

You say that living sinless is impossible, I challenge you personally to come and see for yourself. You live in PA, I can give you directions to a congregation where you can witness personally the power of Almighty God to keep his saints free from sin. If you are interested, just PM me. If not, then that is unfortunate.

BCF
Jan 29th 2009, 08:07 PM
Unbelief is very strong, and you don't believe that living sinless is possible, therefore it will always be impossible. Without faith it's impossible to please God, without the Holy Spirit, it's impossible to live sinless.

So basically what you are telling me my friend is, if Our Lord would come today and say to everyone on the earth. You who have not sinned, please step forward. You could step forward, and Jesus would say, Well Done Good and Faithful Servant.:hmm:

Interresting......

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Jan 29th 2009, 08:29 PM
So basically what you are telling me my friend is, if Our Lord would come today and say to everyone on the earth. You who have not sinned, please step forward. You could step forward, and Jesus would say, Well Done Good and Faithful Servant.:hmm:

Interresting......

God Bless,

Dave

I USED to be a sinner.....BEFORE I got saved. Salvation delivers you from sin, and sets you free from it. The bondage of sin is broken in Salvation.

I still challenge you to come and see for yourself. Do you want directions to a local congregation to see for yourself? Or are you not completely interested.

No I don't commit sin, all glory and honor goes to God. My life is a simple testimony of the power of Almighty God.

Grace is NOT an excuse to fall [sin], but rather the strength to stay righteous & holy.

Definition of holy: 1. Properly, whole, entire or perfect, in a moral sense. Hence, pure in heart, temper or dispositions; free from sin and sinful affections.

God is coming back for a spotless [sinless] and blameless church. Anything less than holiness will fall short on the last day.

Walstib
Jan 29th 2009, 08:34 PM
Hi faithfulfriend,

I don't think invitations are necessary to show your point through reasoning and conversation. We can't "see" sins within the mind anyway.

We are still on topic and that is great, lets just keep it a bit less personal and more scriptural.

Thanks everyone.

faithfulfriend
Jan 29th 2009, 08:42 PM
Hi faithfulfriend,

I don't think invitations are necessary to show your point through reasoning and conversation. We can't "see" sins within the mind anyway.

We are still on topic and that is great, lets just keep it a bit less personal and more scriptural.

Thanks everyone.

I've been here long enough to see that scripture doesn't seem to hold as much authority as it should, thus the reason for me making it personal.

I've debated scripture concerning the issue of sin for over a year now on the forums and it hasn't resulted in any interest, nor acceptance. Not that I'm surprised by that, but it's rather difficult to show scripture to a biased mind that can't shake the belief of the doctrine "sin more or less every day." If you search some threads I've been active with in the past, you'd see that I do my absolute best to produce as much scripture as possible.

So apologies for making it personal without using scripture, it's just that I've used scripture on at least a half-dozen other threads, that I was hoping making an invitation would generate interest. So far it hasn't. Seeing for yourself the lives of others who live without sin would solidify the fact that it is possible, and that the scriptures I present concerning living sinless are true.

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 08:58 PM
We are not totally sinless. John records that that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.

But, I believe that one does not have to sin every day.

Paul records 'Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.' Notice Paul did not start the verse with 'If you,' but with an imperative 'Walk.'

This tells me that if we indeed walk in the Spirit, we will not sin. For how long? Only God knows.

But if we give ourselves over to the things of God; prayer, reading of the Word, sharing the plan of Salvation with the lost, etc., ... where is the time to sin?

James gave us some very wise instruction when he wrote 'Submit yourselves therefore to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you.'

If man will submit himself to God, humble himself under the mighty hand of God, man will have the ability to resist the temptation to sin (not that he will always resist sin, but the ability is there.)

Paul recorded in his epistle to the Church at Corinth that God has made a way of escape so that we could bear any temptations that came our way. Bearing temptations does not mean we have to give in to them... especially since God has provided a way of escape... His Son Jesus Christ.

Walstib
Jan 29th 2009, 09:00 PM
Hi faithfulfriend,

I understand what you are saying, and the "other side" often says the same things. I certainly did not mean to imply you were not using any scripture. It's all good, just a little reminder is all. :)

faithfulfriend
Jan 29th 2009, 09:05 PM
We are not totally sinless. John records that that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves.

This is just a rough draft, but I'm currently working on a sort of "project" to explain I John 1:8 in it's proper context. Here's what I have so far, I trust it makes sense:

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Christ is eternal; therefore He is the one from the beginning that was seen and witnessed by the apostles and Disciples of Christ. Although we don’t feel it necessary, we want to use scripture to show that Christ is in fact eternal, and is He who is from the beginning. “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5) This passage should suffice in order to show that Christ is eternal, and thus John is writing here to describe that Christ was seen, heard, and witnessed, not only by himself but by others as well. The reference “Word of Life” is simply stating that Christ is the Word of God, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1).

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

Once again, the writer is reiterating the point that Christ is eternal, and that He has been seen, witnessed, and has given unto men the gift of eternal life so that all who accept this gift and obey the law of Christ may be with Him in eternity forever.

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Verse 3 is a key passage that must be understood in accordance to the true meaning of verse 8. It is apparent that the writer has a relationship with Christ, thus he was justified, saved, and regenerated. Notice in verse 3 it states “…that ye also may have fellowship with us…” It therefore is learned that the writer is directing his comments towards those who do not have a relationship with Christ. Continuing to the end of the verse it states “…and truly our fellowship is with the Father [God], and with his Son Jesus Christ” It can now be understood that the writer here is speaking unto those who do not have a relationship with Christ. Therefore we must discover who in fact the writer is addressing, as well as their beliefs, way of life, and attitude towards Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

Notice again the writer declares that “…writes we unto you, that your joy may be full” Again it is apparent that those being addressed in the first four verses do not have a relationship with Christ. The joy being mentioned here is simply the spiritual joy that salvation brings, “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” (Romans 14:17).

5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Again, we want to notice the writer stating “…declare unto you,” meaning those individuals who are being addressed which do not have a relationship with Christ, unlike the writer himself. The message here in verse 5 is a simple restatement of Christ’s words himself “…I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” (John 8:12).

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

The writer here is stating that those who claim to have a relationship with Christ, but yet walk in darkness, are liars. It is obvious that the writer is not the one walking in darkness, for the writer declared previously in verse 3 that “…our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” So it is obvious that the writer is not referring to himself when using the word “we,” or else it would contradict verse 3.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Remember earlier in verse 3 that the writer declared “…that ye also may have fellowship with us…” Keeping this in mind, we now can see that the writer is addressing those who have no relationship with Christ and saying: “If you will walk in the light, just as Christ is the light, you will have fellowship with us and with Christ.” The writer here is desiring to have fellowship with those who do not have a current true relationship with Christ, thus the writer is pleading to the audience to turn from their darkness [sin], and walk in the light [holiness] so that their joy may be full [verse 4], and that they may have fellowship with other Christians.

The last part of this verse is of utmost importance. Christ’s blood cleanses from all sin. Therefore if an individual is cleansed from all sin, the question we may ask is: “How much sin is left over if Christ’s blood has cleansed it all?” The answer is a simple: None. Not one single sin remains unforgiven, uncleansed, unbroken from any individual who is willing to confess, forsake, and repent of all sin. We want to emphasize again very strongly that when Christ’s blood cleanses all sin, there is no sin left over. Therefore all committed sin is gone, cleansed, and forgiven.

8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We once again want to bring to remembrance that the writer has a relationship with Christ and those being addressed [the audience] do not have a relationship with Christ. Therefore they have not yet been justified, and therefore have not yet repented of their sins. This verse is addressed unto those who are self-righteous, and who are claiming to have no need of Christ’s blood so that they may be cleansed from all sin [verse 7]. Therefore since the writer is addressing those who have not yet been saved, it is apparent that the audience maintains a belief that they have no need of repentance, salvation, or Christ’s blood because they have no sin in their life. One cannot repent of sin if they do not believe that they have sin to be forgiven of, nor can one be saved if they are self-righteous in which they are living a life of sin but do not believe they have any sin in their life.

Again we want to emphasize and stress that those being addressed here are unbelievers, unsaved, self-righteous, and not in fellowship with the writer, nor with the Christians. Thus because of their pitiful condition, they remain uncleansed by the blood of Christ, and remain in sinful bondage and headed toward an eternal separation from Christ unless they repent.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Thus in verse 9 here we can see that it begins with the word “If,” which gives us an absolute indication that those who are being addressed by the writer have a chance to confess, forsake, and repent of sin, but the choice remains up to the audience as to whether or not they will admit their sinful condition and repent, or remain in their sinful state.

We also want to make the point that unrighteousness is sin: “All unrighteousness is sin…” (I John 5:17). Therefore verse 9 is re-iterating the same point in verse 7 that Christ’s blood is powerful enough to cleanse a person from all sin completely.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If one is desiring to obtain the experience of salvation, they must admit their sinful condition and must reckon with the fact that they have in fact committed sin before Almighty God, and therefore must confess, forsake, and repent of all sin. Therefore the writer is stating here: “If you say you have not sinned against God, you are lying because you have not yet repented of your sins and been justified by faith” Again this is being addressed unto those who are self-righteous, and do not believe that they are sinners, therefore they have not yet been “cleansed from all sin” [verse 7].

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 09:18 PM
Hi faithful friend,

I would disagree with the idea that 1 John 1:8 is only about the unsaved for the fact that John included himself in that verse when he used the word 'we'.

John indeed was saved, so the fact that he included himself by using the word 'we' tells me that we indeed can sin.

John went on in Chapter 2 of the same epistle to state that 'If we sin, we have an advocate...' Again, he uses the word 'we,' including himself.

faithfulfriend
Jan 29th 2009, 09:22 PM
Hi faithful friend,

I would disagree with the idea that 1 John 1:8 is only about the unsaved for the fact that John included himself in that verse when he used the word 'we'.

John indeed was saved, so the fact that he included himself by using the word 'we' tells me that we indeed can sin.

John went on in Chapter 2 of the same epistle to state that 'If we sin, we have an advocate...' Again, he uses the word 'we,' including himself.

The word "we" is used to also say "you." For example "How are we feeling today?"

I John 1:8 completely contradicts with the following passages, thus I John 1:8 is NOT directed toward those who are born again:

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him [Christ] sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness [lives sinless] is righteous [sinless], even as he [Christ] is righteous [sinless].

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Verse 10 plainly states those who do not live righteous [sinless, above sin] are not of God. Verse 8 declares those who commit sin are of the Devil, not of God.

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 09:29 PM
The word "we" is used to also say "you." For example "How are we feeling today?"

I John 1:8 completely contradicts with the following passages, thus I John 1:8 is NOT directed toward those who are born again:

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him [Christ] sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness [lives sinless] is righteous [sinless], even as he [Christ] is righteous [sinless].

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Verse 10 plainly states those who do not live righteous [sinless, above sin] are not of God. Verse 8 declares those who commit sin are of the Devil, not of God.

I guess if you want to say there is no way whatsoever that a person who is saved can sin, then the whole world is lost and Jesus Christ died in vain.

Saying we are perfectly sinless once we make a profession of Christ flies in the face of Scripture. Paul wrote:

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

With his mind, he served the law of God, but with his flesh the law of sin. Paul was saved when he penned these words, and yet he said there were times when he gave in to the flesh and he served the law of sin.

There will be no sinless man until man has been reunited with the Lord in the air.

Many try to say Paul was not saved when he wrote the book of Romans, but the fact remains Paul wrote Romans during his third missionary journey. He clearly was saved well prior to this journey.

faithfulfriend
Jan 29th 2009, 09:36 PM
I guess if you want to say there is no way whatsoever that a person who is saved can sin, then the whole world is lost and Jesus Christ died in vain.

Saying we are perfectly sinless once we make a profession of Christ flies in the face of Scripture. Paul wrote:

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

With his mind, he served the law of God, but with his flesh the law of sin. Paul was saved when he penned these words, and yet he said there were times when he gave in to the flesh and he served the law of sin.

There will be no sinless man until man has been reunited with the Lord in the air.

Christ did not die in vain. He died so that mankind could be pure again, just like Adam & Eve. Having a sinless nature through a second work of grace called Sanctification.

If you read chapter 6 of Romans, you will see the apostle Paul also said:

“Shall we continue in sin [keep committing sin] that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Rom. 6:1, 2.

“For sin shall not have dominion [power] over you . . .” Rom. 6:14.

“But now being made free from sin …” Rom. 6:22.

In these scriptures and many others, Paul clearly speaks of the Christian living triumphantly over sin.

He went on in Romans 7 to “speak to them that know the [Old Testament] law,” and, speaking in the present tense, described his unregenerate condition, wherein he did not have the power to overcome sin, before his conversion. Without salvation, no man is free from the law of sin and death.
Verse 23 describes Paul’s struggle with sin before he was saved. “I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Therefore he cried, in verse 24, “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

He joyfully answers this question in Rom. 8:2–“The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.”

He was now free from the condemnation of sin because, through salvation, he was empowered to live free from committing sin. Hence, he could also go on to teach others to “awake to righteousness and sin not” (I Cor. 15:34).

In Rom. 7:19 he had said, “For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.” For sinning religionists to insist that Paul still lived like this after being saved, they would have to negate all that Paul testified to and taught in Romans chapters 6 and 8, and all of his other writings, as well as all the New Testament writers. The apostle John said, “Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.”

When Paul was doing the evil that he would not, it was because he had not yet seen God; had not yet understood and experienced His great salvation.

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 09:48 PM
Verse 23 describes Paul’s struggle with sin before he was saved. “I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Therefore he cried, in verse 24, “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

Wrong again. Paul did not struggle with sin prior to salvation... he sinned willingly. He persecuted the Church thinking he was above the Church. He said he was seen as being blameless concerning the Law.

He did not struggle with sin. His struggles with sin were not until after his Damascus Road experience... after his conversion.

CommanderRobey
Jan 29th 2009, 09:56 PM
Hebrews 12 tells us that we are not to despise the chastening (disciplinary action) of the Lord for the Lord chastens those that He loves.

If saved people did not sin, there would be no need for chastening... and scripture states if man endures not chastening, he is a b*****d and not a son.

There would be no need for discipline if there were no sin.

faithfulfriend
Jan 30th 2009, 02:01 AM
Hebrews 12 tells us that we are not to despise the chastening (disciplinary action) of the Lord for the Lord chastens those that He loves.

If saved people did not sin, there would be no need for chastening... and scripture states if man endures not chastening, he is a b*****d and not a son.

There would be no need for discipline if there were no sin.

Chastening is for God's children, not children of the Devil. The chastisement comes from God not because of sin, but because of God leading his Children. For example he'll chasten you if you aren't reading as much as He wants you to, or maybe God wants you to clear up a matter between you and another saint.

The children of God don't sin, therefore chastisement is for them. The children of the Devil [sinners] are not God's children.

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely [with much work, much difficulty] be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

If the righteous [those living free from sin] are scarcely saved, where do the sinner appear? Living righteously isn't easy, but God's grace is sufficient.

Sirus
Jan 30th 2009, 03:03 AM
Hi faithful friend,

I would disagree with the idea that 1 John 1:8 is only about the unsaved for the fact that John included himself in that verse when he used the word 'we'.

John indeed was saved, so the fact that he included himself by using the word 'we' tells me that we indeed can sin.

John went on in Chapter 2 of the same epistle to state that 'If we sin, we have an advocate...' Again, he uses the word 'we,' including himself.It's written to a confused divided church as a result of seducers. In any group there are saved/unsaved. He wrote it so they would know if they are saved or not. The letter is addressed to to the reader or hearer in the church whether saved/unsaved. It is a 'contrast themed' book. Verses 8 and 9 are contrasting one another in light of the gospel. Verse 8 is describing someone confronted with the gospel that denies they have sin that needs forgiveness. Verse 9 is someone that accepts that need and confesses. "If we say" here in Greek is "third class condition" -if we say, hypothetically leaving it up to the reader or hearer to decide.

Oh and then he said "these things write I unto you, that ye sin not."

Since John later said 'your sins are forgiven', how can anyone think this one verse is to be used in establishing a doctrine of confession, completely contrary to the basic fundamental truth of Christianity, which is all sins are forgiven by the blood shed once 2000 years ago. Jesus is not standing as advocate with an eyedropper of His precious blood waiting for believers to confess a sin, that if they don't they are damned.

If John is speaking about believers claiming to have no sin, then he is telling believers to confess when they do sin. Hardly!

faithfulfriend
Jan 30th 2009, 05:43 PM
It's written to a confused divided church as a result of seducers. In any group there are saved/unsaved. He wrote it so they would know if they are saved or not. The letter is addressed to to the reader or hearer in the church whether saved/unsaved. It is a 'contrast themed' book. Verses 8 and 9 are contrasting one another in light of the gospel. Verse 8 is describing someone confronted with the gospel that denies they have sin that needs forgiveness. Verse 9 is someone that accepts that need and confesses. "If we say" here in Greek is "third class condition" -if we say, hypothetically leaving it up to the reader or hearer to decide.

Oh and then he said "these things write I unto you, that ye sin not."

Since John later said 'your sins are forgiven', how can anyone think this one verse is to be used in establishing a doctrine of confession, completely contrary to the basic fundamental truth of Christianity, which is all sins are forgiven by the blood shed once 2000 years ago. Jesus is not standing as advocate with an eyedropper of His precious blood waiting for believers to confess a sin, that if they don't they are damned.

If John is speaking about believers claiming to have no sin, then he is telling believers to confess when they do sin. Hardly!

If your interpretation is true, then God's Word contradicts itself with I John 3. I John 3 plainly declares that Christians don't sin, therefore I John 1:8 is not directed to Christians.

CommanderRobey
Jan 30th 2009, 06:11 PM
R.C.H. Lenski translated 1 John 3:6 as follows: “Everyone remaining in him does not go on sinning; everyone continuing to sin has not seen him, nor has he known him” (1966, pp. 457-458). Lenski translated verse 9: “Everyone that has been born from God does not go on doing sinning because his seed remains in him; and he is not able to go on sinning because he has been born of God” (p. 462).

Lenski further states that 1 John 3:6,9 uses a Greek construction called the present durative, which should be translated “does not go on sinning” (pp. 458,462). In his epistle, John is saying the same thing that Paul wrote in Romans 6:1-2, when he stated: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?” There are other verses in God's Word teach that Christians will commit sins, even after they have been washed in the blood of Christ (Romans 7:14-25; Philippians 3:12-13).



1 John tells us that any person who sins continuously, making it his or her lifestyle, is not born of God. In 1 John 3:9, the Greek present infinitive means to habitually sin without compunction.



Example: It is one thing for a Christian to accidentally put a pen from the bank into his or her pocket for which he or she is remorseful. It is a totally different thing for a person to steal day to day and state he or she is “having fellowship with the Father” (1 John 1:6). Whether one puts a pen in his or her pocket by accident and walks out of the bank with it, or he or she outright and defiantly picks the pen up knowing it does not belong to him or her and walks out with it, ... it is still stealing. Stealing is a sin.

So, Christians can sin. Whether accidentally stealing a pen, or telling someone that they will meet them at a certain time on a certain day and then forgetting about it (what may have been spoken as a truth becomes a lie), or some other thing.

Yukerboy
Jan 30th 2009, 06:13 PM
God didn't fail because man sins, man failed (and continues to fail) God because he sins.

Agreed. Man does what he was bound by God to do.


Paul is expressing the natural, wretched state of all mankind in Rom. 3:10-18, whether Jew or Gentile, “for all have sinned [past tense] and come short of the glory of God,” as he states in verse 23.

Agreed again. Paul states that all men have sinned.


Thank God, this is not a state anyone need remain in! Paul goes on in verses 24, 25 and 26 to present the plan of salvation, mankind’s deliverance from their sinful state.

Still waiting for where we disagree....you are either abiding by the flesh or abiding in the Spirit, agreed.


Paul said in Romans 6:20, “For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.” When it comes to sinners, there is none righteous, no not one, that includes those professing to be sinning Christians!

Agreed again. One who is born of God cannot sin, for God's seed remains in him.


“For as by one man’s [Adam] disobedience many were made sinners [for all inherited his sinful nature], so by the obedience of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.” Rom. 5:19.

Christ has washed his sheep from all unrighteousness. Agreed.


Adam & Eve were free moral agents. The Biblical account of the testing and fall of Adam & Eve reveals that they were created as free moral agents with the power of choice. (Gen. 3:1-6, 17-19). The very fact they were given the opportunity for choice, a choice involving a moral decision, proves they were free moral agents. There can be no exercise of freedom without the opportunity to choose otherwise. The occasion of choice gives opportunity to exercise the power of free will. Love for God can only be proved through obedience voluntarily given. A forced obedience is not a true test of character. Only when one does right while having the power to do otherwise reveals one's true character. Even though Adam & Eve were created pure, their purity did not determine their conduct. Their will does that. This account of Adam & Eve also shows that their purity and closeness to God could be, and was lost. Just as this original pair was free moral agents, responsible for their actions, likewise so are we today, "choose this day whom ye will serve" (Joshua 24:15). "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" (Deut. 30:19). The scriptures teach throughout that we are responsible to God for our conduct. We are promised a reward for faithful service and punishment for disobedience. Such responsibility is possible only on the grounds that we have the power of free choice as to whether or not we will obey God. This power finds expression in the exercise of our will. It is freedom of choice that gives character to sin and virtue. If our will is determined by God, then goodness deserves no reward and disobedience [sin] deserves no penalty.

These are all great, but unscriptural, sayings. Man can tell man "choose", but man will choose what God has chosen for them to choose.


Because we inherited a sinful nature, our freedom of choice is limited prior to receiving salvation. Through Christ, our nature can be changed, and those changed are said to be free indeed (II Peter 1:4, John 8:32-36). Because of this inherited depraved nature, we all sooner or later lost our childhood innocence. (Thus "all have sinned"). Therefore, when unsaved we were without a disposition to love and serve God. Through coming in contact with the gospel, choosing to heed the call to repentance and getting our heart changed through full salvation, put us in the condition where we could fulfill our God-given purpose of voluntarily loving and glorifying God.

Once again, great sayings.

Now, the Bible states that all have sinned.
The Bible states that man is dead in his transgressions (sins).

Dead men don't choose. The dead are raised to life by God, not of their own choosing, but of God's choosing. If it was up to the dead to raise themselves, then the dead will always remain dead.

As you stated the Scripture earlier, there is no one righteous....and the Scripture continues to say there is no one who seeks after God.

If a sinner cannot seek God, then it must be God who seeks the sinner.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 30th 2009, 06:39 PM
If a sinner cannot seek God, then it must be God who seeks the sinner.

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You are correct Yuke.... His Spirit seaches the hearts and minds of the people... God seeks those He saves.....

Jesus was SENT to seek and Save that which is Lost...

It is God who draws the sinner to Himself.. Revealing His Mercy and Grace and His Goodness to him/her.. upon this revelation bringing the sinner to repentance... this MercyGoodness Grace bestowed upon the sinner... is UNMERITED... its that revelation of His love for you First.. that will send a soul to his/her knees...

the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance...


Salvation belongs to God alone... not man...


It is God that SEEKS.. and He SAVES....

Man cannot come to God unless the Spirit is drawing him/her..


When He saved me in 1994... I DIDN'T find Him.....

He FOUND ME.... and revealed His Son to me... that is Eternal...

amen and amen....
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Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

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CommanderRobey
Jan 30th 2009, 06:42 PM
Man cannot come to God unless the Spirit is drawing him/her..

I am so glad that Jesus said:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 30th 2009, 06:51 PM
I am so glad that Jesus said:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Yes the Power of the Gospel... lies in the Preaching of the Cross...
unto the Jews a stumblingstone.. unto the Greeks its just plain foolishenss.. but unto those who are 'saved'..

The Power of God... amen and amen....

faithfulfriend
Jan 30th 2009, 09:54 PM
R.C.H. Lenski translated 1 John 3:6 as follows: “Everyone remaining in him does not go on sinning; everyone continuing to sin has not seen him, nor has he known him” (1966, pp. 457-458). Lenski translated verse 9: “Everyone that has been born from God does not go on doing sinning because his seed remains in him; and he is not able to go on sinning because he has been born of God” (p. 462).

Lenski further states that 1 John 3:6,9 uses a Greek construction called the present durative, which should be translated “does not go on sinning” (pp. 458,462). In his epistle, John is saying the same thing that Paul wrote in Romans 6:1-2, when he stated: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?” There are other verses in God's Word teach that Christians will commit sins, even after they have been washed in the blood of Christ (Romans 7:14-25; Philippians 3:12-13).



1 John tells us that any person who sins continuously, making it his or her lifestyle, is not born of God. In 1 John 3:9, the Greek present infinitive means to habitually sin without compunction.



Example: It is one thing for a Christian to accidentally put a pen from the bank into his or her pocket for which he or she is remorseful. It is a totally different thing for a person to steal day to day and state he or she is “having fellowship with the Father” (1 John 1:6). Whether one puts a pen in his or her pocket by accident and walks out of the bank with it, or he or she outright and defiantly picks the pen up knowing it does not belong to him or her and walks out with it, ... it is still stealing. Stealing is a sin.

So, Christians can sin. Whether accidentally stealing a pen, or telling someone that they will meet them at a certain time on a certain day and then forgetting about it (what may have been spoken as a truth becomes a lie), or some other thing.

I never said CHristians CAN'T sin, but if they DO CHOOSE to sin, their salvation is forfeited. Christian's choose not to sin, thus they remain Christians. Sinners commit sin, not Christians.

Also, the greek tense has the significance of a process as well as repeated action, therefore the translation of I John 1:8 is "He that is in the process of sinning AND he who habitually sins is of the devil."

CommanderRobey
Jan 30th 2009, 10:42 PM
I never said CHristians CAN'T sin, but if they DO CHOOSE to sin, their salvation is forfeited. Christian's choose not to sin, thus they remain Christians. Sinners commit sin, not Christians.

Also, the greek tense has the significance of a process as well as repeated action, therefore the translation of I John 1:8 is "He that is in the process of sinning AND he who habitually sins is of the devil."

If they can lose their salvation because of one sin, then Jesus has lied to them when He promised "I will never leave you, nor forsake you." He would have lied when He said told man to write "He that hath begun a good work in you will complete it."

A person losing their salvation? I think not. If they end up in h**l, it is because Christ never knew them, not because they lost the gift that is given without repentance.

Sirus
Jan 31st 2009, 01:45 AM
If your interpretation is true, then God's Word contradicts itself with I John 3. I John 3 plainly declares that Christians don't sin, therefore I John 1:8 is not directed to Christians.You think that because you are reading English ;) but even the English says 'BECAUSE' His seed......!!!!

Sirus
Jan 31st 2009, 01:47 AM
Man cannot come to God unless the Spirit is drawing him/her..I know everyone thinks that's in the Bible, but it's not ;)

You do have it correct in your next post that it is by the gospel - faith comes by hearing the word -gospel. Stick to that......it's scriptural :idea:

faithfulfriend
Jan 31st 2009, 06:18 AM
If they can lose their salvation because of one sin, then Jesus has lied to them when He promised "I will never leave you, nor forsake you." He would have lied when He said told man to write "He that hath begun a good work in you will complete it."

A person losing their salvation? I think not. If they end up in h**l, it is because Christ never knew them, not because they lost the gift that is given without repentance.

Christ's words are based on the condition of obedience. The Bible clearly states that sin separates man from God, and those that commit sin are spiritually dead:

Those who sin are spiritually dead

Rom. 6:13 “But yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead.”

Rom. 7:5 “For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins...did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.”

Rom. 8:6 “For to be carnally minded is death.”

Eph. 2:1 “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.”

Col. 2:13 “And you, being dead in your sins...”

1 Tim. 5:6 “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.”


Those that turn back to sin lose their salvation

Ezk. 33:12-13 “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression...neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth...if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.”

Gal. 2:17-18 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.”

2 Pet. 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning...The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

CommanderRobey
Jan 31st 2009, 06:37 PM
As I have pointed out, per my 'pen in the pocket' illustration, even the child of God can and at times does sin.

Ever tell someone who was calling you, "Just a moment" or "Just a minute"? and then took ten or fifteen minutes to get back with them? Many of us have. Well, intentional or not, one has lied.

Another illustration, you tell your boss you will be at work at 8 o'clock tomorrow morning, but on the way to work, you have a flat tire or there is a traffic jam and you do not arrive until 8:10. Well, what you told your boss has become a lie. Unintentional, but still a lie. You were not at work at the time you told your boss you would be there.

Christians do, and well commit sins unintentionally.

BCF
Jan 31st 2009, 07:34 PM
As I have pointed out, per my 'pen in the pocket' illustration, even the child of God can and at times does sin.

Ever tell someone who was calling you, "Just a moment" or "Just a minute"? and then took ten or fifteen minutes to get back with them? Many of us have. Well, intentional or not, one has lied.

Another illustration, you tell your boss you will be at work at 8 o'clock tomorrow morning, but on the way to work, you have a flat tire or there is a traffic jam and you do not arrive until 8:10. Well, what you told your boss has become a lie. Unintentional, but still a lie. You were not at work at the time you told your boss you would be there.

Christians do, and well commit sins unintentionally.

Tis is my point exactly. There is not a one of us who are that Righteous, that we will ever be able to say that we have not sinned. There was only one who ever walked the earth who could say that....He was Our Lord Jesus Christ. For us to say that we are that Righteous, that we can walk in Our Lords very shoes, who John the Baptist said that even he...... was not worthy enough to latch. Just cannot be scriptural. We cannot be better or as good as our Lord while yet living in this sinful body.

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Feb 1st 2009, 04:59 AM
As I have pointed out, per my 'pen in the pocket' illustration, even the child of God can and at times does sin.

Ever tell someone who was calling you, "Just a moment" or "Just a minute"? and then took ten or fifteen minutes to get back with them? Many of us have. Well, intentional or not, one has lied.

Another illustration, you tell your boss you will be at work at 8 o'clock tomorrow morning, but on the way to work, you have a flat tire or there is a traffic jam and you do not arrive until 8:10. Well, what you told your boss has become a lie. Unintentional, but still a lie. You were not at work at the time you told your boss you would be there.

Christians do, and well commit sins unintentionally.

It's clear that you don't have an understanding concerning the Biblical definition of sin. A flat tire is not something a human can control, and having a flat tire is not sin.

Is not washing your hands sin? Jesus didn't wash his hands before he ate, and he was accused of transgressing. As far as lying goes, the Bible says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire. You'll know if you've told a lie or not, it's not something that "just happens." Sin is a willful transgression against a divine law of God:

I John 3:4 – Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

James 4:17 – Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Sin is based on a relative basis, not an absolute basis. Sin is imputed according to knowledge and understanding, as well as intention of heart.

faithfulfriend
Feb 1st 2009, 05:04 AM
Tis is my point exactly. There is not a one of us who are that Righteous, that we will ever be able to say that we have not sinned. There was only one who ever walked the earth who could say that....He was Our Lord Jesus Christ. For us to say that we are that Righteous, that we can walk in Our Lords very shoes, who John the Baptist said that even he...... was not worthy enough to latch. Just cannot be scriptural. We cannot be better or as good as our Lord while yet living in this sinful body.

God Bless,

Dave

Ever look up the definition of righteous in the dictionary?

Morally upright; without guilt or sin
In accordance with virtue or morality

We are commanded to live in holiness and righteousness before God all the days of our life.

Lu 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Lu 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Holiness: The state of being holy; purity or integrity of moral character; freedom from sin; sanctity.

The only way to be free from sin is to NOT COMMIT IT. Christ said whosoever committed sin was a SERVANT of sin. But if the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free [from sin] indeed.

Butch5
Feb 1st 2009, 05:09 AM
As I have pointed out, per my 'pen in the pocket' illustration, even the child of God can and at times does sin.

Ever tell someone who was calling you, "Just a moment" or "Just a minute"? and then took ten or fifteen minutes to get back with them? Many of us have. Well, intentional or not, one has lied.

Another illustration, you tell your boss you will be at work at 8 o'clock tomorrow morning, but on the way to work, you have a flat tire or there is a traffic jam and you do not arrive until 8:10. Well, what you told your boss has become a lie. Unintentional, but still a lie. You were not at work at the time you told your boss you would be there.

Christians do, and well commit sins unintentionally.

In order for it to be a lie, there needs to be intentional deceit.

faithfulfriend
Feb 1st 2009, 05:12 AM
In order for it to be a lie, there needs to be intentional deceit.

Correct. Definition of lie:

1. A criminal falsehood; a falsehood uttered for the purpose of deception; an intentional violation of truth. Fiction, or a false statement or representation, not intended to deceive, mislead or injure, as in fables, parables and the like, is not a lie.

It is willful deceit that makes a lie.

Yukerboy
Feb 1st 2009, 05:16 AM
Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The born again are not imputed sin for the born again cannot sin, no matter what they do.

Sin is not a willful transgression against a divine law of God. Keep it simple.

Sin is a transgression of the law. The born again being no longer under the law are no longer able to transgress it.

This is why John says "cannot sin" instead of "should not sin" or "ought not to sin". It is impossible for the born again to sin. They no longer have the ability to sin.

CommanderRobey
Feb 1st 2009, 05:19 AM
It's clear that you don't have an understanding concerning the Biblical definition of sin. A flat tire is not something a human can control, and having a flat tire is not sin.

Is not washing your hands sin? Jesus didn't wash his hands before he ate, and he was accused of transgressing. As far as lying goes, the Bible says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire. You'll know if you've told a lie or not, it's not something that "just happens." Sin is a willful transgression against a divine law of God:

I John 3:4 – Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

James 4:17 – Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Sin is based on a relative basis, not an absolute basis. Sin is imputed according to knowledge and understanding, as well as intention of heart.
James put in a stipulation in his epistle. He said we should say, "if the Lord will."

If we say "if the Lord will," and we are not able to meet an appointment, we have done no wrong. But, the fact that we say "I will be there" and we don't make it, we have lied. And it was not a willful lie.

To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not... well by James' writing we know we are to say "if the Lord will." If we fail to say it, and our promised is not fulfilled, we have sinned in that we have lied.

I also gave the example of accidentally putting a pen in one's pocket. That is stealing... one knows the commandment 'Thou shalt not steal.' If that one, by accident puts a pen in his pocket, he has stolen that pen. That happened to me many years ago. And the next day when I put on my jacket, I realized I had that pen and the Spirit within told me I had stole it. I returned the pen apologizing. But the fact remains, I knew the command not to steal. We do things sometimes not even thinking. It is the nature of the flesh to work against the Spirit that lives in us.

Another law, Thou shalt not covet. Just how many of us are guilty of that? Wanting a new computer, a new tv, a new car, wanting the best and the fastest? We know the law, and yet many times we, myself included, are guilty of coveting something or another.

Fact is, the New Testament declares that if we are guilty of breaking one point of the law, we are guilty of all. Sin is the transgression of the law, so not one of us can say we do not sin once in a while. We all transgress God's law from time to time.

faithfulfriend
Feb 1st 2009, 05:22 AM
James put in a stipulation in his epistle. He said we should say, "if the Lord will."

If we say "if the Lord will," and we are not able to meet an appointment, we have done no wrong. But, the fact that we say "I will be there" and we don't make it, we have lied. And it was not a willful lie.

To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not... well by James' writing we know we are to say "if the Lord will." If we fail to say it, and our promised is not fulfilled, we have sinned in that we have lied.

I also gave the example of accidentally putting a pen in one's pocket. That is stealing... one knows the commandment 'Thou shalt not steal.' If that one, by accident puts a pen in his pocket, he has stolen that pen. That happened to me many years ago. And the next day when I put on my jacket, I realized I had that pen and the Spirit within told me I had stole it. I returned the pen apologizing. But the fact remains, I knew the command not to steal. We do things sometimes not even thinking. It is the nature of the flesh to work against the Spirit that lives in us.

Another law, Thou shalt not covet. Just how many of us are guilty of that? Wanting a new computer, a new tv, a new car, wanting the best and the fastest? We know the law, and yet many times we, myself included, are guilty of coveting something or another.

Fact is, the New Testament declares that if we are guilty of breaking one point of the law, we are guilty of all. Sin is the transgression of the law, so not one of us can say we do not sin once in a while. We all transgress God's law from time to time.


No it was not a sin. As soon as you were aware that you had stolen a pen, you therefore came to the realization that if you kept it, you were a thief and you were a stealer. Since you returned it immediately after you were aware that you accidentally took it, it's not imputed as sin.

Now...if you would have realized that it's not your pen, and then decided to still keep it. That is stealing, and that is sin.

Steal: 1. To take and carry away feloniously, as the personal goods of another. To constitute stealing or theft, the taking must be felonious, that is, with an intent to take what belongs to another, and without his consent.

Covetousness: 1. A strong or inordinate desire of obtaining and possessing some supposed good; usually in a bad sense, and applied to an inordinate desire of wealth or avarice.

There's a big difference between working toward being able to obtain a new computer, and being covetous. It's an issue of the heart. If there's covetousness in your heart, then yes it will show and manifest itself in your life.

Yukerboy
Feb 1st 2009, 05:26 AM
Sin is the transgression of the law, so not one of us can say we do not sin once in a while. We all transgress God's law from time to time.

To sin is to be not born again.

If not one of us can say we do not sin, then not one of us can say we are born again.

The born again cannot sin, John makes no qualms about that.

CommanderRobey
Feb 1st 2009, 05:27 AM
No it was not a sin. As soon as you were aware that you had stolen a pen, you therefore came to the realization that if you kept it, you were a thief and you were a stealer. Since you returned it immediately after you were aware that you accidentally took it, it's not imputed as sin.

Now...if you would have realized that it's not your pen, and then decided to still keep it. That is stealing, and that is sin.

Steal: 1. To take and carry away feloniously, as the personal goods of another. To constitute stealing or theft, the taking must be felonious, that is, with an intent to take what belongs to another, and without his consent.
The pen is still stolen whether I had realized I had stolen it or not.

faithfulfriend
Feb 1st 2009, 05:39 AM
The pen is still stolen whether I had realized I had stolen it or not.

It was ACCIDENTALLY taken. There's a heart intention involved here. If you took it with full knowledge and understanding that it was not yours and that you were going to take it for the sake of stealing it, then sin is imputed.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

And the definition of sin:

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

CommanderRobey
Feb 1st 2009, 05:41 AM
Paul, in his epistle to the saints at Ephesus, told them to put away lying and to speak truth with one another.

Paul addressed them as 'saints, and called them members one of another. And yet he pointed out that they indeed were sinning. They were lying. Saints of God lying! Imagine that!

And some claim the saved cannot sin.

Same with the Church at Colosse, Paul called them saints in the greeting, told them they were saved in chapter three and then proceeded to tell them to put to death fornication, evil concupiscience, etc., which was in their body. They were still sinning.

Yukerboy
Feb 1st 2009, 05:51 AM
Paul, in his epistle to the saints at Ephesus, told them to put away lying and to speak truth with one another.

Paul addressed them as 'saints, and called them members one of another. And yet he pointed out that they indeed were sinning. They were lying. Saints of God lying! Imagine that!

And some claim the saved cannot sin.

He addresses that to "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:" (Ephesians 4:21)

If they were born again, they did not sin.

If they were taught by God, they did not sin.

If they have not been taught by God (yet), they have sinned.

If they have not been taught by God, they are not born again.

Yukerboy
Feb 1st 2009, 05:58 AM
Same with the Church at Colosse, Paul called them saints in the greeting, told them they were saved in chapter three and then proceeded to tell them to put to death fornication, evil concupiscience, etc., which was in their body. They were still sinning.
Colossians 3:1-2 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Paul had qualified it with "If you are risen with Christ".

He tells us this is what the born again have done. These are characteristics of the born again. The born again do not sin and, "if you are risen with Christ", neither do you.

CommanderRobey
Feb 1st 2009, 06:14 AM
Evein John Calvin said that John was speaking of a continuous life of sin... not just the occasional sin.

But here a question arises, Whether the fear and love of God can be extinguished in any one who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God? for that this cannot be, seems to be the import of the Apostle's words. They who think otherwise refer to the example of David, who for a time labored under such a beastly stupor, that not a spark of grace appeared in him. Moreover, in Ps 51:10-12 (vr:396E+2), he prays for the restoration of the Spirit. It hence follows that he was deprived of him. I, however, doubt not but that the seed, communicated when God regenerates his elect, as it is incorruptible, retains its virtue perpetually. I, indeed, grant that it may sometimes be stifled, as in the case of David; but still, when all religion seemed to be extinct in him, a live coal was hid under the ashes. Satan, indeed, labors to root out whatever is from God in the elect; but when the utmost is permitted to him, there ever remains a hidden root, which afterwards springs up. But John does not speak of one act, as they say, but of the continued course of life. -- John Calvin's Verse Commentary

Yukerboy
Feb 1st 2009, 06:22 AM
Evein John Calvin said that John was speaking of a continuous life of sin... not just the occasional sin.

But here a question arises, Whether the fear and love of God can be extinguished in any one who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God? for that this cannot be, seems to be the import of the Apostle's words. They who think otherwise refer to the example of David, who for a time labored under such a beastly stupor, that not a spark of grace appeared in him. Moreover, in Ps 51:10-12 (vr:396E+2), he prays for the restoration of the Spirit. It hence follows that he was deprived of him. I, however, doubt not but that the seed, communicated when God regenerates his elect, as it is incorruptible, retains its virtue perpetually. I, indeed, grant that it may sometimes be stifled, as in the case of David; but still, when all religion seemed to be extinct in him, a live coal was hid under the ashes. Satan, indeed, labors to root out whatever is from God in the elect; but when the utmost is permitted to him, there ever remains a hidden root, which afterwards springs up. But John does not speak of one act, as they say, but of the continued course of life. -- John Calvin's Verse Commentary

Unfortunately, I tend to agree with Calvin here right up to the "one act".

It is one act. The born again cannot commit even one act of sin. Why? Because sin is transgression of the law and the born again are not under law. The law was not made for the righteous, but for the lawbreakers, the irreligious, the ungodly. The born again have been made righteous.

faithfulfriend
Feb 2nd 2009, 02:00 AM
Paul, in his epistle to the saints at Ephesus, told them to put away lying and to speak truth with one another.

Paul addressed them as 'saints, and called them members one of another. And yet he pointed out that they indeed were sinning. They were lying. Saints of God lying! Imagine that!

And some claim the saved cannot sin.

Same with the Church at Colosse, Paul called them saints in the greeting, told them they were saved in chapter three and then proceeded to tell them to put to death fornication, evil concupiscience, etc., which was in their body. They were still sinning.

Saint's don't sin, which has been proven over and over again, but just ignored.

As for liars:

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

sheina maidle
Feb 2nd 2009, 02:03 AM
Unfortunately, I tend to agree with Calvin here right up to the "one act".

It is one act. The born again cannot commit even one act of sin. Why? Because sin is transgression of the law and the born again are not under law. The law was not made for the righteous, but for the lawbreakers, the irreligious, the ungodly. The born again have been made righteous.
Are you claiming to be sinless?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

1 John was written to believers/born again Christians.

The purpose of the law was to reveal sin and to show man that he is a guilty sinner before God and it was given to bring men to Jesus Christ:

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:19-20)

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (Romans 7:12-13)

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Galatians 3:24-25)

The born again are "imputed" with the "righteousness of Christ" All our righteousness is as filthy rags:

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Our sin nature was not eradicated at salvation...therefore it IS possible for a Christian to sin, if he/she chooses to do so:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Romans 7:18-19)

threebigrocks
Feb 2nd 2009, 02:21 AM
Our sin nature was not eradicated at salvation...therefore it IS possible for a Christian to sin, if he/she chooses to do so:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Romans 7:18-19)

This verse says much. Paul struggled, Peter took rebuke from Paul. We can get an awful lot of things correct, but we can still get some things wrong, still fall to the temptation from the flesh. We are to strive not to - but the only man who cannot sin, born of man, is a dead man.

Yukerboy
Feb 2nd 2009, 08:54 PM
Are you claiming to be sinless?

I am claiming that as John said, one who is born again cannot (no longer has the ability to) sin.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

1 John was written to believers/born again Christians.


Amen! Everyone who has flesh has sin abiding in the flesh.



The purpose of the law was to reveal sin and to show man that he is a guilty sinner before God and it was given to bring men to Jesus Christ:

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:19-20)


Even more so. Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

The law was added so that sin would increase.



Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (Romans 7:12-13)


Amen.


Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Exactly. The law was not made for the born again. The born again are no longer under law. Sin is transgression of the law. The born again cannot sin for they cannot transgress a law they are not under.


Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Galatians 3:24-25)

Exactly!


The born again are "imputed" with the "righteousness of Christ" All our righteousness is as filthy rags:

Agreed!


But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

You bet!


For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Amen!



Our sin nature was not eradicated at salvation...therefore it IS possible for a Christian to sin, if he/she chooses to do so:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Romans 7:18-19)


Ouch! You were so close.

If you would have followed through with this passage you would see Paul state in the very next verse "Now if I do (sin) what I do not want to do (sin), it is no longer I who do it (sin), but it is sin living in me that does it (sin)."

Even Paul states here that he doesn't sin. The sin abiding in his flesh does it.

CommanderRobey
Feb 2nd 2009, 10:45 PM
Saint's don't sin, which has been proven over and over again, but just ignored.

As for liars:

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Paul said the saints at Ephesus were lying. Lying is a sin.
Paul said the saints at Colosse were sinning as well.

Saint's sometimes do sin.

Aaron was a saint, and he sinned in that he made a golden calf for the Israelites to worship.

Saints can and sometimes do sin.

faithfulfriend
Feb 2nd 2009, 11:01 PM
Paul said the saints at Ephesus were lying. Lying is a sin.
Paul said the saints at Colosse were sinning as well.

Saint's sometimes do sin.

Aaron was a saint, and he sinned in that he made a golden calf for the Israelites to worship.

Saints can and sometimes do sin.

If an individual sins, they are no longer a saint, and therefore LOSE salvation, and become a sinner once again.

Once a sin is committed, with the mercy of God a sinner can be reconciled again to Christ and forgiven, but Saints remain saints by not sinning.

CommanderRobey
Feb 2nd 2009, 11:11 PM
If an individual sins, they are no longer a saint, and therefore LOSE salvation, and become a sinner once again.

Once a sin is committed, with the mercy of God a sinner can be reconciled again to Christ and forgiven, but Saints remain saints by not sinning.

And yet, Aaron was called a saint.

Here's a thought for you...

If it were possible for a saint to lose his or her salvation, he or she could never be restored to the faith. He or she would be lost forever. The Word of God stated that it would be impossible for him or her to be renewed to repentance.

If a saint is perfectly sinless, why would God not trust that saint?

Yukerboy
Feb 2nd 2009, 11:47 PM
Paul said the saints at Ephesus were lying. Lying is a sin.
Paul said the saints at Colosse were sinning as well.

Saint's sometimes do sin.

Aaron was a saint, and he sinned in that he made a golden calf for the Israelites to worship.

Saints can and sometimes do sin.

The fallacy here is saying that lying is a sin. Lying is a sin to the unrighteous because it is unlawful. Those who have been made righteous and are no longer under the law do not sin, even if they lie.

Saints sometimes do things that are not profitable, but all is permissible.

When one who is born again lies, murders, covets, etc, that one does not commit sin.

VerticalReality
Feb 2nd 2009, 11:50 PM
If an individual sins, they are no longer a saint, and therefore LOSE salvation, and become a sinner once again.

Once a sin is committed, with the mercy of God a sinner can be reconciled again to Christ and forgiven, but Saints remain saints by not sinning.

Then why did Paul still refer to them as saints?

VerticalReality
Feb 2nd 2009, 11:58 PM
The fallacy here is saying that lying is a sin. Lying is a sin to the unrighteous because it is unlawful. Those who have been made righteous and are no longer under the law do not sin, even if they lie.

Saints sometimes do things that are not profitable, but all is permissible.

When one who is born again lies, murders, covets, etc, that one does not commit sin.

Then why does Paul make the following statement . . .

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why is it that Paul refers here to sin in regards to the Christian? If it's impossible for a Christian to sin there would be no need for Paul to give the statement above. Paul clearly calls it sin . . .

Yukerboy
Feb 3rd 2009, 12:12 AM
Then why does Paul make the following statement . . .

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why is it that Paul refers here to sin in regards to the Christian? If it's impossible for a Christian to sin there would be no need for Paul to give the statement above. Paul clearly calls it sin . . .

Paul tells us that we certainly won't continue in sin so that grace may abound. He then says how could we possibly live in sin any longer now that we have died to it. The answer is we can't. The chapter after he tells us that it is no longer us (the washed spirit) who sins but the sin living within us (that is our flesh)

dljc
Feb 3rd 2009, 12:46 AM
Paul tells us that we certainly won't continue in sin so that grace may abound. He then says how could we possibly live in sin any longer now that we have died to it. The answer is we can't. The chapter after he tells us that it is no longer us (the washed spirit) who sins but the sin living within us (that is our flesh)So basically we can call ourselves a Christian and continue living the way we were before we called ourselves a Christian?

Yukerboy
Feb 3rd 2009, 01:03 AM
So basically we can call ourselves a Christian and continue living the way we were before we called ourselves a Christian?

I suppose you could, but I doubt that would fly with God. It doesn't matter what you call you, it's what He calls you.

dljc
Feb 3rd 2009, 01:08 AM
I suppose you could, but I doubt that would fly with God. It doesn't matter what you call you, it's what He calls you.Who was Paul talking to and what was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 5?

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

faithfulfriend
Feb 3rd 2009, 01:22 PM
And yet, Aaron was called a saint.

Here's a thought for you...

If it were possible for a saint to lose his or her salvation, he or she could never be restored to the faith. He or she would be lost forever. The Word of God stated that it would be impossible for him or her to be renewed to repentance.

If a saint is perfectly sinless, why would God not trust that saint?

When salvation is lost [by committing sin], an individual can be justified/forgiven/born again because of God's longsuffering and mercy. But it is not the will of God to keep repenting over and over again. If one is truly sorry for their sin, they don't commit it anymore.

Just because saints don't sin doesn't mean that God will not test them to prove their loyalty, love, and devotion to Almighty God. Look at Job. God allowed all of those things, yet Job remained loyal to God.

Yukerboy
Feb 3rd 2009, 02:47 PM
Who was Paul talking to and what was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 5?

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Paul was talking to the Corinth church about a man who was a member of the church.

dljc
Feb 3rd 2009, 02:54 PM
Paul was talking to the Corinth church about a man who was a member of the church.Is that all Paul was telling them?

Yukerboy
Feb 4th 2009, 02:33 AM
Is that all Paul was telling them?

He was talking about "To deliver such an one (that wicked person) unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh (put away from among yourselves).

They were told not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

:confused

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

BCF
Feb 4th 2009, 07:42 PM
Ever look up the definition of righteous in the dictionary?

Morally upright; without guilt or sin
In accordance with virtue or morality

We are commanded to live in holiness and righteousness before God all the days of our life.

Lu 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Lu 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Holiness: The state of being holy; purity or integrity of moral character; freedom from sin; sanctity.

The only way to be free from sin is to NOT COMMIT IT. Christ said whosoever committed sin was a SERVANT of sin. But if the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free [from sin] indeed.


Sorry for the delay my friend...have a lot going on right now between the weather with it's small ice and snow storms, just making things a mess around here....and people needing me to fix computers for them.

Anyways...enough about that.....to answer your question:


Ever look up the definition of righteous in the dictionary?

As a matter of fact I have. Do I disagree with it? Not with the definition I don't.....but what man calls sin and what God calls sin I do. Let me explain myself.

The definition of righteous in the dictionary is as you quoted:



Morally upright; without guilt or sin
In accordance with virtue or morality


Do I agree with this definition? Yes. But the question is not whether one can be righteous or not when it comes to answering your question. What is needed to know and understand in order to answer your question is.....what is the definition of sin? Why is this so important? Because one cannot live a righteous life without first knowing and understanding the definition of sin.

The definition of sin in the dictionary is.......1.The willful breaking of religious or moral law. 2.Any offense or fault.

The first part of the definition of sin takes us back to what we started this thread on.......which was the Law. Why did God give the law in the first place, was a question that I not only gave on this thread.......but was a question that was answered from scripture....on this very thread. I am not going to write everything that I wrote before about this question.....but I will give you a hint as to why God gave the law.....and you can search the scripture from there.

God gave the law to Moses in the OT in the first place because.......God needed to take action for the sinful situation that occurred in the Garden with Adam and Eve. God also needed to provide a way for man to understand just how much they needed God's Grace. God's way of doing this was by making the Law (the Mosaic Law) which God gave to Moses, which only one person, born of man (Flesh and Blood), and of Spirit (God) could ever walk this earth and fulfill (Matthew 5:17). Who was indeed who God promised satan in the Garden would come one day (Genesis 1:14-15), who was non other then Jesus Christ Our Loving Lord. Who came to shed His Blood on a Tree, so that whom ever would have Faith in Him, could obtain His Grace for our sins, and live an Everlasting Life with Him in Eternity.

Anyone can disagree with that all they want to. But that my friend is the bottom line b/c scripture says so, and so does the definition of sin. The second part of the definition of sin says:

2.Any offense or fault.

My friend there is only one according to scripture, in any translation of the scripture that one wants to look in, that could have ever walked this earth and called themselves blameless and faultless. That my friend is Jesus Christ Our Lord and nobody else.

To say differently is a total misunderstanding of scripture. You my friend or anyone for that matter, show me in scripture where we, living in our fleshly bodies (human) not our Spiritual bodies after this life (which belongs to God) are blameless and faultless in our ways of living in this life. And I will believe everything that you say.

So....do I believe the definition of righteous.....sure.....but that is only because I know and understand the definition of sin also.....and believe that to.

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Feb 4th 2009, 08:02 PM
To sin is to be not born again.

If not one of us can say we do not sin, then not one of us can say we are born again.

The born again cannot sin, John makes no qualms about that.

Who my friend gives you the right to judge anyone heart for God and, say that they are not born again b/c they sin?

For you my friend to make such a statement have just sinned yourself against the scripture, for Jesus said in Luke 6:37:

"37. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven."

You my friend, who do not know the heart of man.....only God does, does not have the right to judge ones heart for God.....only God has that right. You also do not know who is saved and who is not saved....only God does. You my friend are not God.

You who claims not to ever sin.....just sinned with your own bold statement.....because you cannot judge what only God can judge.

The scripture tells us to judge the fruit of the Spirit, which will show through the flesh of man. The scripture never tells us to judge the Spirit of man.....which is right where the heart of man lies.

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Feb 4th 2009, 08:23 PM
Sorry for the delay my friend...have a lot going on right now between the weather with it's small ice and snow storms, just making things a mess around here....and people needing me to fix computers for them.

Anyways...enough about that.....to answer your question:



As a matter of fact I have. Do I disagree with it? Not with the definition I don't.....but what man calls sin and what God calls sin I do. Let me explain myself.

The definition of righteous in the dictionary is as you quoted:



Do I agree with this definition? Yes. But the question is not whether one can be righteous or not when it comes to answering your question. What is needed to know and understand in order to answer your question is.....what is the definition of sin? Why is this so important? Because one cannot live a righteous life without first knowing and understanding the definition of sin.

The definition of sin in the dictionary is.......1.The willful breaking of religious or moral law. 2.Any offense or fault.

The first part of the definition of sin takes us back to what we started this thread on.......which was the Law. Why did God give the law in the first place, was a question that I not only gave on this thread.......but was a question that was answered from scripture....on this very thread. I am not going to write everything that I wrote before about this question.....but I will give you a hint as to why God gave the law.....and you can search the scripture from there.

God gave the law to Moses in the OT in the first place because.......God needed to take action for the sinful situation that occurred in the Garden with Adam and Eve. God also needed to provide a way for man to understand just how much they needed God's Grace. God's way of doing this was by making the Law (the Mosaic Law) which God gave to Moses, which only one person, born of man (Flesh and Blood), and of Spirit (God) could ever walk this earth and fulfill (Matthew 5:17). Who was indeed who God promised satan in the Garden would come one day (Genesis 1:14-15), who was non other then Jesus Christ Our Loving Lord. Who came to shed His Blood on a Tree, so that whom ever would have Faith in Him, could obtain His Grace for our sins, and live an Everlasting Life with Him in Eternity.

Anyone can disagree with that all they want to. But that my friend is the bottom line b/c scripture says so, and so does the definition of sin. The second part of the definition of sin says:

2.Any offense or fault.

My friend there is only one according to scripture, in any translation of the scripture that one wants to look in, that could have ever walked this earth and called themselves blameless and faultless. That my friend is Jesus Christ Our Lord and nobody else.

To say differently is a total misunderstanding of scripture. You my friend or anyone for that matter, show me in scripture where we, living in our fleshly bodies (human) not our Spiritual bodies after this life (which belongs to God) are blameless and faultless in our ways of living in this life. And I will believe everything that you say.

So....do I believe the definition of righteous.....sure.....but that is only because I know and understand the definition of sin also.....and believe that to.

God Bless,

Dave

Your answer is I John 3. You will either accept it, or reject it, but that's your decision. I've posted scripture upon scripture upon scripture.

BCF
Feb 4th 2009, 10:08 PM
Your answer is I John 3. You will either accept it, or reject it, but that's your decision. I've posted scripture upon scripture upon scripture.

No my friend.....I disagree.

My friend....the First Epistle of John was not written so that we who are saved can say that we never sin. The whole book was written to Honor our Loving Lord as the God of Light, The God of Love, and the God of Life. This was indeed the fellowship that John had found very much enjoying in His Walk with his Lord. John desperately desired that his spiritual children would come to enjoy this very same fellowship. Just as we would enjoy that our follow Christians (children in Christ) would come to enjoy the fellowship that we have with our Lord, b/c of the study that we do for Our Lord's Glory.

The proof of everything that I am saying is right in John's first book, right from the very beginning.

The fact that God is light is described in 1 John 1:5-7. John's meaning of this is that, as we walk in the light of Our Lord, we would regularly confess our sins to Him. Which in turn would allow the blood of Christ to continually cleanse us, which would be God's Grace through Jesus. Now....two major roadblocks that would and could hinder this walk would be....falling in love with the world, and falling for the lies of false teachers. John was given this wisdom by Our Lord, b/c he wrote all about this problem when he wrote about how .....God is Love.

God is Love is described in in 1 John 4:7-14. We who are claiming to be God's children......must walk in God's love. This is why John writes that, if we do not love....we do not know God. Contrary to the belief of our fleshly teachings.....love is more then just a word.....it is an action word from the Heart of man......not from the mind of man. Love from the heart of man is unconditional Love in it's nature. Love from the Heart of man is Giving and not receiving. Love from the mind of man is giving and expecting something in return. Love from the heart of man is Biblical Love just as God gave His only begotten Son, expecting nothing in return for us to give of ourselves, but our unconditional Love from the Heart of man. The Birth and Death of Our Lord Jesus fulfilled both of those qualities of unconditional Love by Our Loving Lord, and when we as humans can characterize this same brand of Love from us.....will we only be free from self condemnation and experience confidence before God. That time my friend does not happen in this life as we know it. But in the ever lasting life with Our Lord which can only be done through our Spirit. Which takes us to the third reason that John wrote this First Epistle of his, which would be, God is life.

God is life is described in 1 John 2:28-29 and 3:1-3. Those of us who have true fellowship with our Lord, must possess God's quality of life, which is and always will be a Spiritual life. Why? Because God is a Spirit and anyone who has fellowship with God must have fellowship with Him in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:24). There is no way of getting around this fact. Spiritual life only begins with a spiritual birth (John 3:5-7). One can only experience a Spiritual Birth through true Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. If one has true Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ....one shall have God's life......which is Eternal Life.

There is nothing more in the First Epistle of John that he is explaining.....but those three things in a nut shell, and they all point to the Cross.

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Feb 4th 2009, 11:42 PM
No my friend.....I disagree.

My friend....the First Epistle of John was not written so that we who are saved can say that we never sin. The whole book was written to Honor our Loving Lord as the God of Light, The God of Love, and the God of Life. This was indeed the fellowship that John had found very much enjoying in His Walk with his Lord. John desperately desired that his spiritual children would come to enjoy this very same fellowship. Just as we would enjoy that our follow Christians (children in Christ) would come to enjoy the fellowship that we have with our Lord, b/c of the study that we do for Our Lord's Glory.

The proof of everything that I am saying is right in John's first book, right from the very beginning.

The fact that God is light is described in 1 John 1:5-7. John's meaning of this is that, as we walk in the light of Our Lord, we would regularly confess our sins to Him. Which in turn would allow the blood of Christ to continually cleanse us, which would be God's Grace through Jesus. Now....two major roadblocks that would and could hinder this walk would be....falling in love with the world, and falling for the lies of false teachers. John was given this wisdom by Our Lord, b/c he wrote all about this problem when he wrote about how .....God is Love.

God is Love is described in in 1 John 4:7-14. We who are claiming to be God's children......must walk in God's love. This is why John writes that, if we do not love....we do not know God. Contrary to the belief of our fleshly teachings.....love is more then just a word.....it is an action word from the Heart of man......not from the mind of man. Love from the heart of man is unconditional Love in it's nature. Love from the Heart of man is Giving and not receiving. Love from the mind of man is giving and expecting something in return. Love from the heart of man is Biblical Love just as God gave His only begotten Son, expecting nothing in return for us to give of ourselves, but our unconditional Love from the Heart of man. The Birth and Death of Our Lord Jesus fulfilled both of those qualities of unconditional Love by Our Loving Lord, and when we as humans can characterize this same brand of Love from us.....will we only be free from self condemnation and experience confidence before God. That time my friend does not happen in this life as we know it. But in the ever lasting life with Our Lord which can only be done through our Spirit. Which takes us to the third reason that John wrote this First Epistle of his, which would be, God is life.

God is life is described in 1 John 2:28-29 and 3:1-3. Those of us who have true fellowship with our Lord, must possess God's quality of life, which is and always will be a Spiritual life. Why? Because God is a Spirit and anyone who has fellowship with God must have fellowship with Him in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:24). There is no way of getting around this fact. Spiritual life only begins with a spiritual birth (John 3:5-7). One can only experience a Spiritual Birth through true Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. If one has true Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ....one shall have God's life......which is Eternal Life.

There is nothing more in the First Epistle of John that he is explaining.....but those three things in a nut shell, and they all point to the Cross.

God Bless,

Dave

A spiritual birth (Salvation) brings about complete death to self and sin. Therefore Salvation brings power and victory over sin, thus complete deliverance from sin. One is then spiritually alive when obtaining Salvation. Thus sin brings spiritual death, and a separation between God and man.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Christ himself said that those who die in their sins will not enter Heaven:

Joh 8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Once again, the epistle of John:

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whoever abides in Christ does not sin. Those who sin don't know God. This of course does not keep an individual from having a profession.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He that committeth sin is of God. Nope, that's not what it says. You cannot be of God and commit sin at the same time. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. God sent his son to destroy the works of the devil [sin] in peoples lives. He can still do it for you.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Those born again do not commit sin, that includes habitually, and that includes the significance of a process.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

In all of this the children of God and the children of the devil are made known by one issue: SIN

1Jo 5:18 ¶ [B]We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

We KNOW that those born again don't sin. Do you know that?

2Jo 1:9 [B]Whosoever transgresseth [sins], and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Those who transgress [sin] aren't abiding in the doctrine of Christ, and they don't have God. Of course this still does not keep many from having a false profession.

3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

If you still can't see it, there's nothing I can do for you.

Yukerboy
Feb 5th 2009, 12:46 AM
Who my friend gives you the right to judge anyone heart for God and, say that they are not born again b/c they sin?

For you my friend to make such a statement have just sinned yourself against the scripture, for Jesus said in Luke 6:37:

"37. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven."

You my friend, who do not know the heart of man.....only God does, does not have the right to judge ones heart for God.....only God has that right. You also do not know who is saved and who is not saved....only God does. You my friend are not God.

You who claims not to ever sin.....just sinned with your own bold statement.....because you cannot judge what only God can judge.

The scripture tells us to judge the fruit of the Spirit, which will show through the flesh of man. The scripture never tells us to judge the Spirit of man.....which is right where the heart of man lies.

God Bless,

Dave

I judge no one.

The born again cannot sin, or John lied.

If someone sins, they are not born again.

Either Scripture is right or it is wrong.

CommanderRobey
Feb 5th 2009, 12:51 AM
I judge no one.

The born again cannot sin, or John lied.

If someone sins, they are not born again.

Either Scripture is right or it is wrong.
Either the saved can sin, or Paul lied when he said 'The evil that I would not, that I do."

Yukerboy
Feb 5th 2009, 01:02 AM
Either the saved can sin, or Paul lied when he said 'The evil that I would not, that I do."

And later on in the same chapter and the same passage he states "it is no longer I who do it, but the sin abiding in my flesh that does it"

BCF
Feb 5th 2009, 02:34 AM
A spiritual birth (Salvation) brings about complete death to self and sin. Therefore Salvation brings power and victory over sin, thus complete deliverance from sin. One is then spiritually alive when obtaining Salvation. Thus sin brings spiritual death, and a separation between God and man.[/quote]

My friend.....our Salvation does not come from the Spiritual Birth. Spiritual Birth has no baring at all to ones Salvation. Why? Because Salvation comes from Real Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. God's perfect plan of Salvation is that all would come to have Real Faith in His Son Jesus. One cannot have Salvation, unless one has Real Faith, and one cannot have Real Faith, unless one believes, and one cannot believe, unless one Loves unconditionally, and one cannot Love unconditionally, unless one is walking in the Spirit of God, and one cannot walk in the Spirit of God, unless one has given his life up for God. Which requires all ones Love.

My friend....the whole book of James teaches us all about this Real Faith with our Lord, and if anyone knew what Real Faith in our Lord was all about......it was the half brother of Our Lord Jesus.......James.......who wrote the book of James, and teaches us just that.

If a saved man Born of the Spirit of Our Lord does not sin as you are saying John is teaching in 1 John 3. Why would James teach in James 1:14 this:

"14. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed."

Here my friend is where fault actually lies with humans. Being drawn away from Real Faith, and the enticement of sin comes from within humans.....not from God. Satan can encourage humans to sin. We can find this all though Scripture. But.....he cannot do it on his own. There first needs to be an inner opening in a person before the devil can get a wedge into this opening. When he is able to do so then this human becomes trapped in some kind of sin, whatever it may be. This is what happened to Peter when he denied Jesus three times. Peter left a inner opening of weakness in his Real Faith for Jesus, and satan took advantage of it, and drove a wedge into that opening in Peters Faith in Our Lord, and Peter sinned by denying Jesus three times.

Now......when Peter did this....he could have done what we do and said.....the devil made me do it. But Peter did not do that because that would not be consistent with Real Faith, and Peter had Real Faith. No......When a believer sins....Real Faith in Our Lord will prompt them to say, I am to blame, instead of the devil made me do it. Then the believer could repent, ask for God's Grace to overcome the sin, and receive forgivness from God, and abandon the sin by God's grace.

Temptation to sin is an internal thing that happens, not an external thing. We do it....and don't even know that we are doing it at the time, until conviction comes. Then we know. I won't get into it for now....but in the very next verse (James 1:15) are extremely significant words written by James, b/c it outlines clearly the entire process involved in temptation to sin.

I would think that if anyone would have known anything about Salvation and what God's perfect plan for it was. It would have been the very brother of Our Lord Jesus who spent his entire life watching and listening to him. Although James did not believe at first who Jesus said He was or the teachings of Jesus. He did eventually come around to do so. And was inspired by God (I believe) to write the book of James on what the meaning was, in having Real Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless,

Dave

CommanderRobey
Feb 5th 2009, 03:44 AM
And later on in the same chapter and the same passage he states "it is no longer I who do it, but the sin abiding in my flesh that does it"
So, sin abiding in the flesh of the saved Paul cause Paul to sin... therefore, Christian's can, and do, sin.

faithfulfriend
Feb 5th 2009, 03:55 AM
A spiritual birth (Salvation) brings about complete death to self and sin. Therefore Salvation brings power and victory over sin, thus complete deliverance from sin. One is then spiritually alive when obtaining Salvation. Thus sin brings spiritual death, and a separation between God and man.

My friend.....our Salvation does not come from the Spiritual Birth. Spiritual Birth has no baring at all to ones Salvation. Why? Because Salvation comes from Real Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. God's perfect plan of Salvation is that all would come to have Real Faith in His Son Jesus. One cannot have Salvation, unless one has Real Faith, and one cannot have Real Faith, unless one believes, and one cannot believe, unless one Loves unconditionally, and one cannot Love unconditionally, unless one is walking in the Spirit of God, and one cannot walk in the Spirit of God, unless one has given his life up for God. Which requires all ones Love.

My friend....the whole book of James teaches us all about this Real Faith with our Lord, and if anyone knew what Real Faith in our Lord was all about......it was the half brother of Our Lord Jesus.......James.......who wrote the book of James, and teaches us just that.

If a saved man Born of the Spirit of Our Lord does not sin as you are saying John is teaching in 1 John 3. Why would James teach in James 1:14 this:

"14. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed."

Here my friend is where fault actually lies with humans. Being drawn away from Real Faith, and the enticement of sin comes from within humans.....not from God. Satan can encourage humans to sin. We can find this all though Scripture. But.....he cannot do it on his own. There first needs to be an inner opening in a person before the devil can get a wedge into this opening. When he is able to do so then this human becomes trapped in some kind of sin, whatever it may be. This is what happened to Peter when he denied Jesus three times. Peter left a inner opening of weakness in his Real Faith for Jesus, and satan took advantage of it, and drove a wedge into that opening in Peters Faith in Our Lord, and Peter sinned by denying Jesus three times.

Now......when Peter did this....he could have done what we do and said.....the devil made me do it. But Peter did not do that because that would not be consistent with Real Faith, and Peter had Real Faith. No......When a believer sins....Real Faith in Our Lord will prompt them to say, I am to blame, instead of the devil made me do it. Then the believer could repent, ask for God's Grace to overcome the sin, and receive forgivness from God, and abandon the sin by God's grace.

Temptation to sin is an internal thing that happens, not an external thing. We do it....and don't even know that we are doing it at the time, until conviction comes. Then we know. I won't get into it for now....but in the very next verse (James 1:15) are extremely significant words written by James, b/c it outlines clearly the entire process involved in temptation to sin.

I would think that if anyone would have known anything about Salvation and what God's perfect plan for it was. It would have been the very brother of Our Lord Jesus who spent his entire life watching and listening to him. Although James did not believe at first who Jesus said He was or the teachings of Jesus. He did eventually come around to do so. And was inspired by God (I believe) to write the book of James on what the meaning was, in having Real Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless,

Dave

Humans still have DESIRES, Sanctification doesn't remove humanity, only carnality. Therefore it is the Devil's job to TEMPT EVERYONE. How else can you prove your love to God other than resisting temptation.

Jesus Christ was tempted himself, so does that mean if Jesus was tempted that he could sin? No of course not, don't be silly. Everybody is tempted, temptation itself is NOT sin. But the giving INTO temptation is sin. And if you continue reading in the passage you quoted, James himself said "and sin when it is finished [committed] bringeth forth death" (Verse 15)

For you to say Christians can sin means you are completely ignoring I John 3, and the many scriptures I posted in my previous post. I guess in this day in age we can pick and choose what we want to believe, and if certain passages go "against our grain" we just ignore them and pretend they aren't there. :hmm:

BCF
Feb 5th 2009, 02:59 PM
Humans still have DESIRES, Sanctification doesn't remove humanity, only carnality. Therefore it is the Devil's job to TEMPT EVERYONE. How else can you prove your love to God other than resisting temptation.

Jesus Christ was tempted himself, so does that mean if Jesus was tempted that he could sin? No of course not, don't be silly. Everybody is tempted, temptation itself is NOT sin. But the giving INTO temptation is sin. And if you continue reading in the passage you quoted, James himself said "and sin when it is finished [committed] bringeth forth death" (Verse 15)

For you to say Christians can sin means you are completely ignoring I John 3, and the many scriptures I posted in my previous post. I guess in this day in age we can pick and choose what we want to believe, and if certain passages go "against our grain" we just ignore them and pretend they aren't there. :hmm:

No I am not ignoring 1 John 3, and I am taking into account what James goes on to say in verse 15, and all through the rest of his book for that matter, along with his brother Jude, and the rest of the Scripture in context.

I do not disagree on the fact that being tempted is not sin, nor do I disagree on the fact that giving into temptation is what is sin. Yes.....I know that Jesus was tempted by satan in the wilderness three times. Did Jesus give into the temptation to sin? No.....But we are not Jesus walking in the flesh my friend. If we are tempted by satan to sin......we my friend will sin. I will agree with you that every single time that we are tempted by satan in our lives......95% of the time we will resist the temptation of sin by satan and not commit that sin at that time of the day. But with the other 5% of the time in our day that satan tempts us with sin.....we fall short of the Glory of God and give into that sin., whatever it may be at the time.

My friend.....only Jesus Christ Himself could go 100% of the time throughout each and everyday of His walk in human life without sin. We as born again Christians will never do more then 95% throughout each and everyday of our human walk in life without sin. The other 5% will give into sin, and every single temptation that satan brings across the board to us. We will not be made Holy until we have past on to Eternal Life with our Lord and leave this Fleshly Body. Then and only then, will we be made whole with our Lord in Paradise. To say that we are Righteous and Holy as we walk and live in a Fleshly body that is corrupted and full of sin.......just is not taking all the Scripture in it's full context my friend.

God Bless,

Dave:)

faithfulfriend
Feb 5th 2009, 03:28 PM
No I am not ignoring 1 John 3, and I am taking into account what James goes on to say in verse 15, and all through the rest of his book for that matter, along with his brother Jude, and the rest of the Scripture in context.

I do not disagree on the fact that being tempted is not sin, nor do I disagree on the fact that giving into temptation is what is sin. Yes.....I know that Jesus was tempted by satan in the wilderness three times. Did Jesus give into the temptation to sin? No.....But we are not Jesus walking in the flesh my friend.

So you are admitting then that temptation CAN be resisted? Therefore if one can resist ONE temptation, can they not resist TWO, and THREE, and so on and so on. If then God gives them the power and grace to resist three temptations, then they can resist ANY temptation and here's why:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (I Cor. 10:13)

If you truly believe this scripture, Almighty God promised in his Holy Word that there will never be a temptation presented to you that you cannot resist and overcome, therefore for you to say "we" fail 5% of the time nullifies the above scripture completely, because God says otherwise.



If we are tempted by satan to sin......we my friend will sin. I will agree with you that every single time that we are tempted by satan in our lives......95% of the time we will resist the temptation of sin by satan and not commit that sin at that time of the day. But with the other 5% of the time in our day that satan tempts us with sin.....we fall short of the Glory of God and give into that sin., whatever it may be at the time.

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe [are saved], and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13)

Those who give into temptation have no root, and that's coming from Christ himself. Surely then those who have [spiritual] roots are able to stand against EVERY temptation no?

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. " (James 1:12)

Obviously those who endure will be given a crown of life. Therefore those who do not endure are not given a crown of life because they failed God, no? And those who love him will not give into temptation.


My friend.....only Jesus Christ Himself could go 100% of the time throughout each and everyday of His walk in human life without sin. We as born again Christians will never do more then 95% throughout each and everyday of our human walk in life without sin. The other 5% will give into sin, and every single temptation that satan brings across the board to us. We will not be made Holy until we have past on to Eternal Life with our Lord and leave this Fleshly Body.

We will not be made Holy until the next life? My bible doesn't say anything like that. How do you reconcile that belief with the Word of God in the following passages:

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Are you the temple of God? If so, you must be holy right now in this life. Holiness isn't something in the future, it's a present reality.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

There were holy brethren in the Bible days, just as there are holy brethren and sisters today who are alive.


The Bible speaks of the last days how men will be UNholy:

2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

Yet you say that we will be UNholy until the next life? How can this be with all the scripture presented thus far?

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy

Christ was holy, and we are commanded to live as Christ did, in holiness.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Notice God's people are an HOLY nation, not an unholy nation.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Remember Christ himself said those who commit sin are the servant to it, therefore those who do not commit sin are in fact free from it. And we are to yield our bodies to fruit unto HOLINESS.

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The NEW MAN can be put on in THIS LIFE. Holiness isn't a future hope, but a present reality.

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Without holiness, NO MAN will see the Lord. Now if holiness was a future hope as you stated above, then that means nobody will see the lord according to this scripture, because you stated that nobody can be Holy until the next life. Correct?

One last passage I want to show is in Luke 1:

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

We are to serve God in HOLINESS all the days of our life. Obviously that is before the next life, Romans 6 declares to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies.


Then and only then, will we be made whole with our Lord in Paradise. To say that we are Righteous and Holy as we walk and live in a Fleshly body that is corrupted and full of sin.......just is not taking all the Scripture in it's full context my friend.

God Bless,

Dave:)

I'm sorry, but these statements are simply unbiblical. Holiness is commanded in this present life.

BCF
Feb 5th 2009, 04:54 PM
So you are admitting then that temptation CAN be resisted? Therefore if one can resist ONE temptation, can they not resist TWO, and THREE, and so on and so on. If then God gives them the power and grace to resist three temptations, then they can resist ANY temptation and here's why:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (I Cor. 10:13)

If you truly believe this scripture, Almighty God promised in his Holy Word that there will never be a temptation presented to you that you cannot resist and overcome, therefore for you to say "we" fail 5% of the time nullifies the above scripture completely, because God says otherwise.




"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe [are saved], and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13)

Those who give into temptation have no root, and that's coming from Christ himself. Surely then those who have [spiritual] roots are able to stand against EVERY temptation no?

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. " (James 1:12)

Obviously those who endure will be given a crown of life. Therefore those who do not endure are not given a crown of life because they failed God, no? And those who love him will not give into temptation.



We will not be made Holy until the next life? My bible doesn't say anything like that. How do you reconcile that belief with the Word of God in the following passages:

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Are you the temple of God? If so, you must be holy right now in this life. Holiness isn't something in the future, it's a present reality.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

There were holy brethren in the Bible days, just as there are holy brethren and sisters today who are alive.


The Bible speaks of the last days how men will be UNholy:

2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

Yet you say that we will be UNholy until the next life? How can this be with all the scripture presented thus far?

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy

Christ was holy, and we are commanded to live as Christ did, in holiness.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Notice God's people are an HOLY nation, not an unholy nation.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Remember Christ himself said those who commit sin are the servant to it, therefore those who do not commit sin are in fact free from it. And we are to yield our bodies to fruit unto HOLINESS.

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The NEW MAN can be put on in THIS LIFE. Holiness isn't a future hope, but a present reality.

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Without holiness, NO MAN will see the Lord. Now if holiness was a future hope as you stated above, then that means nobody will see the lord according to this scripture, because you stated that nobody can be Holy until the next life. Correct?

One last passage I want to show is in Luke 1:

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

We are to serve God in HOLINESS all the days of our life. Obviously that is before the next life, Romans 6 declares to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies.


So let me see if I can understand you correctly here. From what you are saying above. You are saying that you believe, and I assume teach that the Bible teaches, that when one comes to Christ in this life. They are the same as Jesus was when He walk this earth in this life.

They have the same powers as Jesus had to resist temptation from satan every single time that they are tempted and will never ever fail like Jesus did.

They have the ability to fulfill the Law just as Jesus did, without misstepping once.

They have the power to go into lands where there are millions of starving children, and take a two piece fish dinner, and feed them all with it, and have some left over, by Himself.

They have the power to go into the lands where all these children are dieing from diseases that doctors and science have not come up with a cure for yet, and cure them by casting satan out of the land that he is possessing.

Being able to do these things is being untouchable by satan. Meaning satan cannot reach you at all. There was only one who was untouchable, and we are not him my friend.....no matter how much Scripture you would want to through at me. Scripture does not teach such a thing. Only the Pride of Life teaches those things.....and that gets you no where my friend. Yes....the Scriptures you quoted are true and I do believe. But in there proper context. To believe what you are saying takes God completely out of the picture.....and makes you greater then Him. Just like Adam thought He was in the beginning.

God Bless,

Dave

faithfulfriend
Feb 5th 2009, 05:19 PM
So let me see if I can understand you correctly here. From what you are saying above. You are saying that you believe, and I assume teach that the Bible teaches, that when one comes to Christ in this life. They are the same as Jesus was when He walk this earth in this life.

That's what the Bible commands and says, it's not what I'M saying:

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

So let's not focus on what I'm saying, but rather what the Word of God is saying. Christ walked without sin, and after we are saved & sanctified, we are to do the same.


They have the same powers as Jesus had to resist temptation from satan every single time that they are tempted and will never ever fail like Jesus did.

Through the power of Sanctification, yes. Sanctification fills an individual with the Holy Spirit, which then enables God to supply grace, power, and strength to his Children so that they may live holy everyday. What's the point of having Christ as an example if you can't follow his example?


They have the ability to fulfill the Law just as Jesus did, without misstepping once.

The law of Christ, yes.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Remember, Christ's commandments are not grievous, and he said himself that if you love Him, you will keep them.


They have the power to go into lands where there are millions of starving children, and take a two piece fish dinner, and feed them all with it, and have some left over, by Himself.

I can't say I've ever seen this in person, but I believe if God wanted to feed people and his saints were somewhere, God could still provide that miracle today. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

There have been ministers that I know of in which God has blessed them with the gift of healing.


They have the power to go into the lands where all these children are dieing from diseases that doctors and science have not come up with a cure for yet, and cure them by casting satan out of the land that he is possessing.

I've seen people completely healed of cancer, seizures, cataracts, etc. Without any medical attention at all, no doctors, just plain and direct divine healing from Almighty God.

Do you not believe in the power of Almighty God? Or do you have unbelief? My God can do anything, what about yours?


Being able to do these things is being untouchable by satan. Meaning satan cannot reach you at all. There was only one who was untouchable, and we are not him my friend.....no matter how much Scripture you would want to through at me. Scripture does not teach such a thing. Only the Pride of Life teaches those things.....and that gets you no where my friend. Yes....the Scriptures you quoted are true and I do believe. But in there proper context. To believe what you are saying takes God completely out of the picture.....and makes you greater then Him. Just like Adam thought He was in the beginning.

All scripture is in context, to twist them out of context in order to make the Word of God weaker and less effective is a big problem with religion today. There was a day even in recent history where most churches in the USA preached living free from sin. The message has changed over the years and have been compromised. Because people are fed a steady diet of "sin you will, sin you must," it has become the common belief that the doctrine is true. The doctrine was false 50 years ago, and it remains false today.

Scripture in fact does teach this [holiness]. The problem lies with your unbelief. No matter how many scriptures I post, you will refuse to believe, therefore I cannot do anything more to help you. I simply have shown you the Word of God, and the choice is yours as to whether or not you believe the Bible or not. So basically no matter how many scriptures I show you, you're going to hold fast to your beliefs, even when they contradict scripture.

I don't have the pride of life, I remain humble before Almighty God. For you to say that man must keep sinning is an embarrassment to the sacrifice made on the cross, and an undermining of the power of God.

Sanctification doesn't make me greater than God, for nobody is God. But as far as being perfect in moral character, yes we can have this. And that does not eliminate God, but rather proves that I need God even MORE in my life everyday. Without God, I would be a sinner, bound by various sins and wicked habits of life. I used to be a sinner, then God delivered me from them. There's things I've done that I'm ashamed of, and I promised God I'll never go back to sin again, and his blood has kept me, his grace has been sufficient to keep me, and His power is greater than any temptation the Devil wants to bring my way. God will only allow Satan to go as far as God allows him to go.

To say that I'm untouchable is a little confusing. If your saying that I cannot be tempted, that would be completely untrue. I'm tempted every week, but it's the power of God and the power of His word that gives me strength to continue to press on.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood of Christ is MORE powerful than the blood of bulls and goats. The OT is the day when man could not live above sin, and had to continually confess. The NT is the complete deliverance from all sin through Christ's blood. From the time of repentance, God commands his children to live holy.

CommanderRobey
Feb 5th 2009, 06:01 PM
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (I Cor. 10:13)

If you truly believe this scripture, Almighty God promised in his Holy Word that there will never be a temptation presented to you that you cannot resist and overcome, therefore for you to say "we" fail 5% of the time nullifies the above scripture completely, because God says otherwise.

Notice God did not say He would take the temptation away. He only said He would give us a avenue of escape from giving in to that temptation so that even though the temptation was still there, we might be able to bear it.

In 1 John 2:14, John states that he is addressing young men who are strong and the Word of God abides in them. The admonition not to sin found in the beginning of the Chapter is for the young men as well as the old. John clearly knew the young men, although strong, still had the capacity to fall to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. He knew they still could sin even though they were saved.

John went on to tell them in verse 2 that if they did sin, Jesus Christ was their Defense.

faithfulfriend
Feb 5th 2009, 06:42 PM
Notice God did not say He would take the temptation away. He only said He would give us a avenue of escape from giving in to that temptation so that even though the temptation was still there, we might be able to bear it.

In 1 John 2:14, John states that he is addressing young men who are strong and the Word of God abides in them. The admonition not to sin found in the beginning of the Chapter is for the young men as well as the old. John clearly knew the young men, although strong, still had the capacity to fall to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. He knew they still could sin even though they were saved.

John went on to tell them in verse 2 that if they did sin, Jesus Christ was their Defense.

Once the devil realizes that you will not give into the temptation, it will eventually go away. That's not to say that it may come back again at a later time, for the Devil is mean.

Of course individuals have the CAPACITY to fall, but that doesn't mean they HAVE to fall. It's possible for young mean to stay pure, just has I John 2 says, but if one does fall, God will be merciful and forgive again if necessary. But the plan of salvation isn't sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent, sin repent, etc. It's repent, then live holy.

CommanderRobey
Feb 5th 2009, 07:00 PM
But the plan of salvation isn't sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent, sin repent, etc. It's repent, then live holy.
To repent and live holy is certainly what God wants of His people, but the fact is, as long as we live in these fleshly bodies, temptations will continue, and as BCF pointed out earlier, we will occasionally stumble.

As I pointed out, some of the congregation John was speaking to in his epistle were young men who were saved. He states at one point that 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.' These men were strong in the Lord, and yet, John said they deceive themselves if they say they have no sin.

A saved man has the capacity to sin, and the propensity to sin. If he does not submit himself to God when temptations arise, the flesh will prevail and the man will sin.

faithfulfriend
Feb 5th 2009, 07:05 PM
To repent and live holy is certainly what God wants of His people, but the fact is, as long as we live in these fleshly bodies, temptations will continue, and as BCF pointed out earlier, we will occasionally stumble.

As I pointed out, some of the congregation John was speaking to in his epistle were young men who were saved. He states at one point that 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.' These men were strong in the Lord, and yet, John said they deceive themselves if they say they have no sin.

A saved man has the capacity to sin, and the propensity to sin. If he does not submit himself to God when temptations arise, the flesh will prevail and the man will sin.

The proper context of I John 1:8 is important. Look back on the previous pages in this thread and you'll see I've explained it at least twice. I can't find the post# right now or else I'd post it :lol:

Yukerboy
Feb 5th 2009, 07:18 PM
So, sin abiding in the flesh of the saved Paul cause Paul to sin... therefore, Christian's can, and do, sin.

That's not what it says.

Paul says that the evil Paul doesn't want to do, Paul does, but it is not Paul doing it, it is the sin abiding within his flesh that does it. Paul remains sinless. It was the sin living in Paul's flesh that committed evil, not Paul.

CommanderRobey
Feb 5th 2009, 07:56 PM
That's not what it says.

Paul says that the evil Paul doesn't want to do, Paul does, but it is not Paul doing it, it is the sin abiding within his flesh that does it. Paul remains sinless. It was the sin living in Paul's flesh that committed evil, not Paul.
Actually, if one reads the passage in context, one can clearly see that Paul is saying his spirit struggles with his flesh. At times, his flesh is weak and he allows sin to take place even though his spirit may be repulsed by it.

Yukerboy
Feb 5th 2009, 10:35 PM
Actually, if one reads the passage in context, one can clearly see that Paul is saying his spirit struggles with his flesh. At times, his flesh is weak and he allows sin to take place even though his spirit may be repulsed by it.

Exactly, thus "Romans 7:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=7&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

The sin living within the flesh will sin, but the children of God, the spirit that were given birth by The Spirit, the ones washed, sanctified, justified, and glorified....they remain sinless. What God has made clean, let no man make unclean.

Originally posted by CommanderRobey:
Christian's can, and do, sin.

Originally posted by God in 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

CommanderRobey
Feb 5th 2009, 10:52 PM
Exactly, thus "Romans 7:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=7&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

The sin living within the flesh will sin, but the children of God, the spirit that were given birth by The Spirit, the ones washed, sanctified, justified, and glorified....they remain sinless. What God has made clean, let no man make unclean.

Originally posted by CommanderRobey:
Christian's can, and do, sin.

Originally posted by God in 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
When the spirit of man gives way to the flesh and the flesh sins, it is still man that sins. Paul, when saying that it was not him that sins was not saying he does not ever sin. He was saying he sins because of the sin that is within him. James verified this when he said every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Once the lust is conceived, it brings forth sin. But the root is that the sin man does is because he is drawn away of his own lusts and enticed.

Yukerboy
Feb 6th 2009, 01:34 PM
When the spirit of man gives way to the flesh and the flesh sins, it is still man that sins. Paul, when saying that it was not him that sins was not saying he does not ever sin. He was saying he sins because of the sin that is within him. James verified this when he said every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Once the lust is conceived, it brings forth sin. But the root is that the sin man does is because he is drawn away of his own lusts and enticed.

So, let me get this right.

You say that Paul says it wasn't Paul that sins, yet Paul says he sins?!

Do you not see the contradiction here when you go by what you wish to believe than by what the Bible says?!

Not one time will you find Paul either sinning or admitting he can sin after being born again.

When James talks about sin beong conceived and bringing forth death, who do you think has crossed over from death to life? Those who sin or those who do not?

No, John tells us the born again cannot sin.

Understand that John could have used should not (implying no permission), or ought not (implying no permission), but he used cannot (implying inability).

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2009, 01:49 PM
So, let me get this right.

You say that Paul says it wasn't Paul that sins, yet Paul says he sins?!

Do you not see the contradiction here when you go by what you wish to believe than by what the Bible says?!

Not one time will you find Paul either sinning or admitting he can sin after being born again.

When James talks about sin beong conceived and bringing forth death, who do you think has crossed over from death to life? Those who sin or those who do not?

No, John tells us the born again cannot sin.

Understand that John could have used should not (implying no permission), or ought not (implying no permission), but he used cannot (implying inability).

Hi Yukerboy,

Are you dead to sin if you are born again?

Rom 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Feb 6th 2009, 01:53 PM
Hi Yukerboy,

Are you dead to sin if you are born again?

Rom 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Firstfruits

Absolutely.......

Firstfruits
Feb 6th 2009, 02:05 PM
Absolutely.......

How then can you say that being born again cancels what God calls sin, no matter who we are?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Feb 6th 2009, 04:44 PM
How then can you say that being born again cancels what God calls sin, no matter who we are?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Firstfruits

Drives me nuts to say this, but look at "the context".

He is telling those who may or may not be born again to not yield their members as instruments od unrighteousness unto sin. He says yield yourselves to God as THOSE THAT ARE ALIVE FROM THE DEAD.

Those that are alive from the dead are the born again. Paul is saying that yield yourselves to God as the BORN AGAIN do.

Once again, this is all part of making your election sure, enduring to the end, working out your salvation with fear and trembling. The born again cannot sin. The born again yield themselves to God. Paul points out these characteristics to people who may or may not be born again so they know what the born again do.

CommanderRobey
Feb 6th 2009, 04:55 PM
Drives me nuts to say this, but look at "the context".

He is telling those who may or may not be born again to not yield their members as instruments od unrighteousness unto sin. He says yield yourselves to God as THOSE THAT ARE ALIVE FROM THE DEAD.

Those that are alive from the dead are the born again. Paul is saying that yield yourselves to God as the BORN AGAIN do.

Once again, this is all part of making your election sure, enduring to the end, working out your salvation with fear and trembling. The born again cannot sin. The born again yield themselves to God. Paul points out these characteristics to people who may or may not be born again so they know what the born again do.
Wrong!

Context clearly shows that Paul was speaking to a saved people in Romans 6:13.

Romans 6:1-16 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

These are a saved people that Paul is telling not to yield their members unto unrighteousness.

Yukerboy
Feb 6th 2009, 05:01 PM
Wrong!

Context clearly shows that Paul was speaking to a saved people in Romans 6:13.

Romans 6:1-16 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

These are a saved people that Paul is telling not to yield their members unto unrighteousness.

You went too far back.

Our old man was crucified (become the born again).

Then, right after stating this, Paul then says "IF we be dead in Christ" allowing for the possibility that some are not, meaning he is talking to those who are not saved also.

Paul then goes on to say that here are the characteristics of the born again. To work out your salvation with fear and trembling, making your election sure, and to ednure to the end, you will also do thses things. If not, you were not born again.

CommanderRobey
Feb 6th 2009, 05:30 PM
You went too far back.

Our old man was crucified (become the born again).

Then, right after stating this, Paul then says "IF we be dead in Christ" allowing for the possibility that some are not, meaning he is talking to those who are not saved also.

Paul then goes on to say that here are the characteristics of the born again. To work out your salvation with fear and trembling, making your election sure, and to ednure to the end, you will also do thses things. If not, you were not born again.

I'm sorry, where is that in Romans Chapter 6? I just read the entire Chapter and can't seem to find 'work out your salvation with fear and trembling' or 'make your calling and election sure'.


The epistle was to the Romans and you are trying to bring the epistle to the Philippians and to the Church at Colosse into the the Roman epistle.

Stick with the Roman epistle. These people did not receive the other epistles.

Yukerboy
Feb 7th 2009, 12:09 AM
I'm sorry, where is that in Romans Chapter 6? I just read the entire Chapter and can't seem to find 'work out your salvation with fear and trembling' or 'make your calling and election sure'.


The epistle was to the Romans and you are trying to bring the epistle to the Philippians and to the Church at Colosse into the the Roman epistle.

Stick with the Roman epistle. These people did not receive the other epistles.

Oh, I see now.

So which epistle applies to you?

CommanderRobey
Feb 7th 2009, 02:30 AM
It is not a question what does or does not apply to me.

You said concerning Romans 6:13


Drives me nuts to say this, but look at "the context".

He is telling those who may or may not be born again to not yield their members as instruments od unrighteousness unto sin. He says yield yourselves to God as THOSE THAT ARE ALIVE FROM THE DEAD.

Those that are alive from the dead are the born again. Paul is saying that yield yourselves to God as the BORN AGAIN do.

Once again, this is all part of making your election sure, enduring to the end, working out your salvation with fear and trembling. The born again cannot sin. The born again yield themselves to God. Paul points out these characteristics to people who may or may not be born again so they know what the born again do.

I pointed out that you are bringing into the epistle of Romans, two verses from two entirely different epistles, trying to justify your teaching of who Paul is addressing in Romans 6 and what he is saying to them.

You cannot say Paul was saying in Romans what he wrote to the Church at Phillipi or to the Church at Colosse. He clearly did not tell them what you claimed he did.

If you are going to try to teach someone what Paul wrote a certain people, at least do your homework and study the epistle he or she is talking about.

Yukerboy
Feb 7th 2009, 02:38 AM
All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for teaching.

I ask again, which epistle applies to you?

For instance, if I were to answer the question, all of them apply to me.

BroRog
Feb 7th 2009, 02:44 AM
John 8:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=8&verse=34&version=49&context=verse)
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

CommanderRobey
Feb 7th 2009, 02:45 AM
All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for teaching.

I ask again, which epistle applies to you?

For instance, if I were to answer the question, all of them apply to me.
I see you still want to justify your saying the two verses pulled out of entirely different epistles was what Paul wrote in Romans.

Please enlighten me and show me in the epistle of Romans where those two verses are at? I have not found them yet.

If you cannot point me to those verses in Romans, I can only come to the conclusion that you took them out of context (which you did anyway) and inserted them in Romans because you could not prove your point without them.

You accused firstfruits of taking a verse out of context and you took two verses out of context to try to say Paul was speaking to an unsaved people in Romans 6.

BCF
Feb 7th 2009, 05:49 PM
Absolutely.......


Yuk

One is only dead to sin when they walk after the Spirit, and not after the Flesh. When we become Born Again our Spirit (which was dead to God) becomes alive to Him and His calling and Word. But our Spirit coming Alive to God and His calling (which is Salvation) does not mean that our minds become dead and flesh become dead to the Sinful things that we did before we became Born Again in Spirit.

Scripture does not teach this nowhere. There are many (like you my friend) who claim that it does, and pulls scripture out of context to try and prove your points. Paul plainly teaches in Romans this very thing which I have described above and others have been saying, Paul is teaching in Romans 7:17-23. Which is, when we become Born Again we have the choice to follow after God with our Spirit. Which would be what is called in Galatians 5:22-25, walking after or in the Spirit, or we can choose to follow after the Flesh and sin. We as Paul never did, and James never did, and Jude never did, and Matthew never did, and John never did, and Mark never did, and Luke never did, and Peter never did, and John the Baptist who Baptized Jesus Himself never did, (and I know I have missed many others and anyone is welcome to add them to the list) walked in the Spirit of God 24/7 a day, and never ever did nothing wrong by making a bad choice that was against a Holy God and His Spirit which either dwelt with them in person, or through the Comforter after Our Lord Jesus made His accension to His Father, and sinned, b/c they choose to follow after there Flesh.

This my friend never ever happened, and you our anyone else will never ever prove through scripture that it did happen. There is, and was, and will only ever be, ONE that could make a correct choice to follow after the Spirit of God 24/7, and never ever make the wrong choice and follow after His Flesh, and that my friend was non other the JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

No one will ever prove differently in the scripture, no matter how much scripture one throws out there. One may prove it in ones mind.......but one will never prove it in ones HEART AND SPIRIT WHERE GOD LIVES.

God Bless,

Dave

Yukerboy
Feb 7th 2009, 06:54 PM
John 8:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=8&verse=34&version=49&context=verse)
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Amen!

The born again cannot sin. The born again are free from sin. Therefore the born again can never be slaves of sin.


If you cannot point me to those verses in Romans, I can only come to the conclusion that you took them out of context (which you did anyway) and inserted them in Romans because you could not prove your point without them.

You accused firstfruits of taking a verse out of context and you took two verses out of context to try to say Paul was speaking to an unsaved people in Romans 6.

LOL! You win. I used Scripture to confirm Scripture.

I would not ignore the epistles...


One is only dead to sin when they walk after the Spirit, and not after the Flesh. When we become Born Again our Spirit (which was dead to God) becomes alive to Him and His calling and Word. But our Spirit coming Alive to God and His calling (which is Salvation) does not mean that our minds become dead and flesh become dead to the Sinful things that we did before we became Born Again in Spirit.

I would agree with that...


There are many (like you my friend) who claim that it does, and pulls scripture out of context to try and prove your points. Paul plainly teaches in Romans this very thing which I have described above and others have been saying, Paul is teaching in Romans 7:17-23. Which is, when we become Born Again we have the choice to follow after God with our Spirit.

I just searched all of Romans for anything to do with "choice"

I found 5 verses...
1. Creation was subjected to frustration, not by it's own choice...
2. Who will bring any charge against those God has chosen?
3. What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known....
4. So too, at the present time, there is a remnant chosen by grace.
5. Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord...

Paul states very clearly that those who are saved, born again, elect, what have you, have no choice BUT to follow after God in the Spirit.


Which would be what is called in Galatians 5:22-25, walking after or in the Spirit, or we can choose to follow after the Flesh and sin. We as Paul never did, and James never did, and Jude never did, and Matthew never did, and John never did, and Mark never did, and Luke never did, and Peter never did, and John the Baptist who Baptized Jesus Himself never did, (and I know I have missed many others and anyone is welcome to add them to the list) walked in the Spirit of God 24/7 a day, and never ever did nothing wrong by making a bad choice that was against a Holy God and His Spirit which either dwelt with them in person, or through the Comforter after Our Lord Jesus made His accension to His Father, and sinned, b/c they choose to follow after there Flesh.


Then John lies. I am sure that Paul is born again. One who is born of God cannot sin. Not shouldn't, not ought not to, not choose not to, but CANNOT.

You claim Paul sinned after being born again.
John states that Paul, being born again, could not sin.

CommanderRobey
Feb 7th 2009, 08:52 PM
Amen!

The born again cannot sin. The born again are free from sin. Therefore the born again can never be slaves of sin.



LOL! You win. I used Scripture to confirm Scripture.

I would not ignore the epistles...



I would agree with that...



I just searched all of Romans for anything to do with "choice"

I found 5 verses...
1. Creation was subjected to frustration, not by it's own choice...
2. Who will bring any charge against those God has chosen?
3. What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known....
4. So too, at the present time, there is a remnant chosen by grace.
5. Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord...

Paul states very clearly that those who are saved, born again, elect, what have you, have no choice BUT to follow after God in the Spirit.



Then John lies. I am sure that Paul is born again. One who is born of God cannot sin. Not shouldn't, not ought not to, not choose not to, but CANNOT.

You claim Paul sinned after being born again.
John states that Paul, being born again, could not sin.
And yet, Paul stated that the evil that he would not do, that he did... and this was after his Damascus Road Salvation experience.

So if Paul did evil after his salvation as Scripture declares he did, then when John stated that 'whosoever is born of God does not sin' he must have been speaking of a continual lifestyle of sin and not an occasional sin.

How does the believer “sin not”? 1 John 3:9 does not mean the believer is unable to sin or that he has attained sinless perfection. John already refuted that idea. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1Jo 1:8 (vr:7755)). Sin remains present in the believer’s life, and it is dealt with by confession and the advocacy of Jesus Christ (1Jo 1:9 (vr:7756); 2:1-2 (vr:7758+1)). If we still are capable of sinning what is 1Jo 3:5-9 (vr:7779+4) teaching us? In this passage, John refutes the error that claims it does not matter how a Christian lives since he is saved by grace. Paul referred to this same error in Ro 6:1-2 (vr:6DA6+1). Both Paul and John wrote that true salvation is evidenced by righteous living. Christ is the believer’s life and righteousness (1Jo 3:5 (vr:7779); compare 1Co 1:30 (vr:6EEA); 2Co 5:21 (vr:70E3)). Christ lives in the child of God; “his seed remaineth in him”; he is born again by the Spirit of God. If a person claims to be saved but continues to be dominated by sin and does not strive to serve Christ in righteousness and holiness--—“doeth not righteousness”--—that person is deceiving himself. The verbs here are in a continuous sense, referring not to acts of sin but to a pattern of life.

Yukerboy
Feb 8th 2009, 02:45 AM
And yet, Paul stated that the evil that he would not do, that he did... and this was after his Damascus Road Salvation experience.

Agreed, and he went on to explain that it is no longer him (the spirit of the born again being born of God) that did it, but the sin abiding in the flesh.


So if Paul did evil after his salvation as Scripture declares he did, then when John stated that 'whosoever is born of God does not sin' he must have been speaking of a continual lifestyle of sin and not an occasional sin.



When John stated "wohsoever is born of God CANNOT sin", he meant it.
How does the believer “sin not”? 1 John 3:9 does not mean the believer is unable to sin or that he has attained sinless perfection. John already refuted that idea. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1Jo 1:8 (vr:7755)).


1 John 1:18 says that all men have sin. Paul tells you where this sin is at. It's in the flesh. Now, is the born again in the flesh or in the spirit? We have sin abiding in the flesh. Never denied that.


Sin remains present in the believer’s life, and it is dealt with by confession and the advocacy of Jesus Christ (1Jo 1:9 (vr:7756); 2:1-2 (vr:7758+1)).

If any man sin (any man), we (the born again) have an advocate.

1 John 1:9 talks of being cleansed from all unrighteousness. All means all! Christ doesn't go part way. What God made clean, no one can soil. When we sinned, we confessed our sins and were made clean. Praise God!


If we still are capable of sinning what is 1Jo 3:5-9 (vr:7779+4) teaching us? In this passage, John refutes the error that claims it does not matter how a Christian lives since he is saved by grace.

The born again are not capable of sinning. 1 John 3:5-9 teaches us that the born again cannot sin. The born again only do righteousness.


Paul referred to this same error in Ro 6:1-2 (vr:6DA6+1). Both Paul and John wrote that true salvation is evidenced by righteous living.

Romans 6:1-2 is Paul CONFIRMING what John has said. Scripture always confirms Scripture. Shall we continue to sin? By no means! It is impossible for the born again to sin. We have no means of sinning. We have DIED to sin.


Christ is the believer’s life and righteousness (1Jo 3:5 (vr:7779); compare 1Co 1:30 (vr:6EEA); 2Co 5:21 (vr:70E3)). Christ lives in the child of God; “his seed remaineth in him”; he is born again by the Spirit of God.

Amen, agree here completely.


If a person claims to be saved but continues to be dominated by sin and does not strive to serve Christ in righteousness and holiness--—“doeth not righteousness”--—that person is deceiving himself. The verbs here are in a continuous sense, referring not to acts of sin but to a pattern of life.

The Bible makes no distinction between a one time act and a lifestyle.

If I murder, I am a murderer. Even if I do it once. If I fornicate, I am a fonicator. Even if I do it once. I would not add "continual" or "lifestyle" to the words of Paul.

Now, the born again cannot sin. The born again are spirit, for the spirit gives birth to spirit. The flesh still sins for the flesh gives birth to flesh. The flesh of the born again is NOT born again! Never was, never will be.

BCF
Feb 9th 2009, 01:31 AM
You claim Paul sinned after being born again.
John states that Paul, being born again, could not sin.

If Born Again Believers in Christ do not sin, after being transformed by the Holy Spirit as you and others claim. Why did Paul write in 1st Thessalonians 2:17-3:5, to the Thessalonian Church?

1st Thessalonians 2:17-3:5:

"17. But we, brethren, having been taken away from you fr a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with desire. 18. Therefore we wanted to come to you.....even I, Paul, time and again....but satan hindered us. 19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even in the presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? 20. For you are our glory and joy. 3}1. Therefore when we could no longer endure it, we thought it to be good to be left in Athens alone, 2. and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our follow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, 3. that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. 4. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know. 5. For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain."

Paul is not speaking to a group non believers here. These people who Paul is writing to are people who Love God. Who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. They knew the Gospel, and were taught by Paul the Love of Christ. All these indications would tell me that they were indeed Born Again people. Well if they were not able to sin anymore b/c of being Born Again.....why was Paul so concerned about them falling weak with there faith through the tempter, when they got tempted by satan?

This is just one illustration of many, which makes your theology not correct according to scripture.

If Born Again believers can no longer sin, there would have been no need for Paul to be concerned about the Faith of these people growing weak. If ones Faith grows weak......one will indeed sin. Just ask Adam and Peter.


God Bless,

Dave

Yukerboy
Feb 9th 2009, 02:54 AM
If Born Again Believers in Christ do not sin, after being transformed by the Holy Spirit as you and others claim. Why did Paul write in 1st Thessalonians 2:17-3:5, to the Thessalonian Church?

1st Thessalonians 2:17-3:5:

"17. But we, brethren, having been taken away from you fr a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with desire. 18. Therefore we wanted to come to you.....even I, Paul, time and again....but satan hindered us. 19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even in the presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? 20. For you are our glory and joy. 3}1. Therefore when we could no longer endure it, we thought it to be good to be left in Athens alone, 2. and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our follow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, 3. that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. 4. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know. 5. For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain."

Paul is not speaking to a group non believers here. These people who Paul is writing to are people who Love God. Who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. They knew the Gospel, and were taught by Paul the Love of Christ. All these indications would tell me that they were indeed Born Again people. Well if they were not able to sin anymore b/c of being Born Again.....why was Paul so concerned about them falling weak with there faith through the tempter, when they got tempted by satan?

This is just one illustration of many, which makes your theology not correct according to scripture.

If Born Again believers can no longer sin, there would have been no need for Paul to be concerned about the Faith of these people growing weak. If ones Faith grows weak......one will indeed sin. Just ask Adam and Peter.


God Bless,

Dave

Agreed. Paul was worried they wuld be tempted. Paul was afraid what he labored so hard for would be in vain.

If Paul was afraid it could be in vain, that they could fall away, then Paul was talking to the church as a whole, which has bron again and some who are not.

For Paul also wrote that:

2 Corinthians 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

God doesn't fail the born again, and Paul knows that.

CommanderRobey
Feb 9th 2009, 04:57 AM
Galatians 6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. (Tempted to what? Sin. Why warn the spiritual saved to watch themselves if they cannot sin?)

Obviously, for someone to be restored to a certain place, one would have to have been in that place to begin with. Restore the Brother who has sinned you who are spiritual.

It is true that God does not fail the born again. But the born again oft times fail God. We fail God in not witnessing when He wants us to. We fail Him by not praying when we should. We fail Him when we don't study the Word of God like we should.

We fail God in many ways.

Yukerboy
Feb 9th 2009, 03:12 PM
Galatians 6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. (Tempted to what? Sin. Why warn the spiritual saved to watch themselves if they cannot sin?)

Obviously, for someone to be restored to a certain place, one would have to have been in that place to begin with. Restore the Brother who has sinned you who are spiritual.

It is true that God does not fail the born again. But the born again oft times fail God. We fail God in not witnessing when He wants us to. We fail Him by not praying when we should. We fail Him when we don't study the Word of God like we should.

We fail God in many ways.

You are confusing believers with the born again.

God works in the born again to will and act according to His good pleasure.

The mind of the born again is controlled by the Holy Spirit.

CommanderRobey
Feb 9th 2009, 06:37 PM
Galatians 6 is speaking of the born again., not someone who believes superficially. These are ones who have placed their faith in Christ and were overtaken in a fault. Restore that one to where he was before.

Jesus told His Disciples that the 'spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.' Paul saw this to be truth when he wrote of the struggle within him in Romans 7. The spirit and the flesh warring against each other. Paul ended that chapter stating that in his mind he served the law of the spirit (he was indeed willing to do the things of the spirit), but in his flesh he served the law of sin (the flesh is weak and Paul gave in to the temptations of the flesh from time to time; "the evil that I would not, that I do").

There is not one perfect "Christian" on this planet. If a child of God was not subject to temptation and sin, then Peter would not have had to warn the 'elect according to the foreknowledge of God' to "be clothed in humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.'

Pride is sin in God's eyes (Proverbs 6:16). Why would Peter warn 'the elect' not to be proud if they could not sin?

There are way too many examples in the Word of God of the Apostle's committing sin after their conversions to say a child of God cannot sin. And one who says he has no sin deceives himself.

BCF
Feb 10th 2009, 05:11 AM
You are confusing believers with the born again.

God works in the born again to will and act according to His good pleasure.

The mind of the born again is controlled by the Holy Spirit.


For one to call themselves a believer, one needs to produce the Fruit of the Spirit. If one cannot produce the Fruit of the Spirit, one cannot be Born Again. If one is not Born Again, one does not have Real Faith in Christ. If one does not have Real Faith in Christ, one is not one of His to begin with. And if one is not one of His to begin with, one is not a believer of Christ for anything.

One is either with Christ, or they are not with Christ.
Being a Believer and Being Born Again come in the same package. They are not two separate packages.

Either one is.......or one is not.

God Bless,

Dave

Yukerboy
Feb 10th 2009, 02:49 PM
Galatians 6 is speaking of the born again., not someone who believes superficially. These are ones who have placed their faith in Christ and were overtaken in a fault. Restore that one to where he was before.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.


Jesus told His Disciples that the 'spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.' Paul saw this to be truth when he wrote of the struggle within him in Romans 7. The spirit and the flesh warring against each other. Paul ended that chapter stating that in his mind he served the law of the spirit (he was indeed willing to do the things of the spirit), but in his flesh he served the law of sin (the flesh is weak and Paul gave in to the temptations of the flesh from time to time; "the evil that I would not, that I do").


I don't disagree with anything you said here.


There is not one perfect "Christian" on this planet. If a child of God was not subject to temptation and sin, then Peter would not have had to warn the 'elect according to the foreknowledge of God' to "be clothed in humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

It was not a warning, but a characteristic. Peter states to the born again that the born again clothes themselves in humility.


Pride is sin in God's eyes (Proverbs 6:16). Why would Peter warn 'the elect' not to be proud if they could not sin?

Once again, the elect are not prideful. However, if one who is born again did have pride, it still would not be the born again who sinned.


There are way too many examples in the Word of God of the Apostle's committing sin after their conversions to say a child of God cannot sin. And one who says he has no sin deceives himself.

As long as we are in the flesh, we have sin. No one denies that.

There are way too many verses that tell us the elect cannot sin to say that whosoever is born of God can sin.


For one to call themselves a believer, one needs to produce the Fruit of the Spirit.

NO! The fruit of the Spirit springs forth from the children of God. Anyone can believe. Even the demons believe. How much fruit of the Spirit do you think is produced by the demons?


If one cannot produce the Fruit of the Spirit, one cannot be Born Again. If one is not Born Again, one does not have Real Faith in Christ. If one does not have Real Faith in Christ, one is not one of His to begin with.

Agree 100%!


And if one is not one of His to begin with, one is not a believer of Christ for anything.

Those that fell away that were not born again believed for a while. However, by going out from us they proved they did not belong to us.


One is either with Christ, or they are not with Christ.


Agreed.


Being a Believer and Being Born Again come in the same package. They are not two separate packages.


All who are born again are believers, but not all who are believers have been born again. Some believers will fall away, but not one of the born again will.