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reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:41 AM
Is election/foreknowledge/predestination based on forseen faith?

if so, please use Scripture to support

if not, please use Scripture to support

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:11 AM
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

This passage clearly shows that election (God choosing people) is for salvation. So the idea that God elects everybody is false unless you believe in universalism which is also false. And the reason God elects us is 'according to the purpose of his will'.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1 Peter 1:1-2

Peter tells us that election is 'according to the foreknowledge of God'. I think we should all note that nowhere in this passage (and nowhere else in the Bible) does it say this 'foreknowledge' is 'foreseen faith'. To say that is adding your own interpretation into the text. From what I understand 'foreknowledge' as used in the Bible is not simply 'knowing beforehand' (this is assumed in God's omniscience), it's more like 'fore-loving'.

So election is based on God's love for us and according to his will. That's how I see it anyway.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:21 AM
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

This passage clearly shows that election (God choosing people) is for salvation. So the idea that God elects everybody is false unless you believe in universalism which is also false. And the reason God elects us is 'according to the purpose of his will'.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1 Peter 1:1-2

Peter tells us that election is 'according to the foreknowledge of God'. I think we should all note that nowhere in this passage (and nowhere else in the Bible) does it say this 'foreknowledge' is 'foreseen faith'. To say that is adding your own interpretation into the text. From what I understand 'foreknowledge' as used in the Bible is not simply 'knowing beforehand' (this is assumed in God's omniscience), it's more like 'fore-loving'.

So election is based on God's love for us and according to his will. That's how I see it anyway.


i agree. i have been studying to see if Scripture supports the notion that God forsees our faith and thus chooses us. I have yet to see one. I actually even came across a verse that says that faith COMES from Christ.

1 timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus

so if election is based on knowing who would get "in" Christ by faith, No one would be elect, because faith itself is IN Christ already! lol how would we get in without faith, which was also in Christ??


however i could be wrong so i am opening this to discussion

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:36 AM
So... we are saved by election. Interesting concept. ;)

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:50 AM
So... we are saved by election. Interesting concept. ;)

We are saved by believing in Christ but we would never believe if we weren't elected beforehand. Election itself doesn't save us, Christ's work on the cross does.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:53 AM
We are saved by believing in Christ but we would never believe if we weren't elected beforehand. Election itself doesn't save us, Christ's work on the cross does.
But then that same work on the cross can't save you unless you have been elected... right?

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:57 AM
But then that same work on the cross can't save you unless you have been elected... right?

Right. It seems like you want to say salvation is only concerned with Jesus as if the Father and Holy Spirit have no part in it. God the Father elects us, God the Son accomplishes redemption for us, and God the Holy Spirit applies this redemption to us.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:02 AM
So if election is required before one can be "saved" then one is saved because of election... not the cross of Christ. The cross of Christ wouldn't have even been necessary if folks were already pre-packaged (so to speak) for heaven. The doctrine is terribly flawed because it truly does put salvation by election. You are elected to have faith therefore you will have faith automatically at some point in time so it isn't even about faith... still boils down to election.

If nothing else... it is fun to watch Reformed folk dance around this fact. ;)

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:10 AM
So if election is required before one can be "saved" then one is saved because of election... not the cross of Christ. The cross of Christ wouldn't have even been necessary if folks were already pre-packaged (so to speak) for heaven. The doctrine is terribly flawed because it truly does put salvation by election. You are elected to have faith therefore you will have faith automatically at some point in time so it isn't even about faith... still boils down to election.

If nothing else... it is fun to watch Reformed folk dance around this fact. ;)

It's fun to see Arminians (or whatever you are) mess up this fact. :cool:

You are separating God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from salvation by saying it's only God the Son with whom salvation is concerned. The cross of Christ was/is necessary for us to be saved as it's the means by which we are saved.

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:17 AM
It's fun to see Arminians (or whatever you are) mess up this fact. :cool:

You are separating God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from salvation by saying it's only God the Son with whom salvation is concerned. The cross of Christ was/is necessary for us to be saved as it's the means by which we are saved.

Funny, thought it was just said that without being elected, that one can't be saved. How is anything else weighed if without election we are lost anyhow?

Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us.



We are blessed in Christ, chosen in Him, through Him, in the Beloved, redemption through His blood, according to His grace.

Christ and Christ alone, no other way. Through Him, not election.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:19 AM
It's fun to see Arminians (or whatever you are) mess up this fact. :cool:

You are separating God the Father and God the Holy Spirit from salvation by saying it's only God the Son with whom salvation is concerned. The cross of Christ was/is necessary for us to be saved as it's the means by which we are saved.
The means? The means for who to be saved since one is already elected to be saved therefore they will be saved by election. The cross really is just turned into some sort of bizzare window dressing some 4000 years later.

Tell me this... when were you elected?

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:23 AM
The means? The means for who to be saved since one is already elected to be saved therefore they will be saved by election. The cross really is just turned into some sort of bizzare window dressing some 4000 years later.

Tell me this... when were you elected?

This will be my last post on this subject as it's ridiculous and off topic.

Me and you were elected before the foundation of the world. Read the Ephesians passage. And here is a nice summary from a website.

Our union with Christ has its roots in divine election, its basis in the redemptive work of Christ, and its actual establishment with God's people by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

The whole Trinity works in salvation.

Now, is anybody going to discuss what the OP wants discussed?

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:27 AM
This will be my last post on this subject as it's ridiculous and off topic.

Me and you were elected before the foundation of the world. Read the Ephesians passage. And here is a nice summary from a website.

Our union with Christ has its roots in divine election, its basis in the redemptive work of Christ, and its actual establishment with God's people by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

The whole Trinity works in salvation.

Now, is anybody going to discuss what the OP wants discussed?
So then we were saved (by election) before the foundation of the world if election really means what the Reformed group says that it means. ;)

And no... it isn't ridiculous at all because it paints you into a corner where there really is no escape. It is a tremendous flaw in that doctrine.

Also this is part of the OP discussion because it is the election he is speaking of that we are discussing.... right? ;)

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:39 AM
Also this is part of the OP discussion because it is the election he is speaking of that we are discussing.... right? ;)

Is election/foreknowledge/predestination based on forseen faith?

That's the OP. Is election based on foreseen faith?

if so, please use Scripture to support

if not, please use Scripture to support

Walstib
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:46 AM
Is election/foreknowledge/predestination based on forseen faith?

To start I would ask you why you believe foreknowledge to be synonymous with election and predestination? Maybe that's not what you mean??

Part of foreknowledge is seeing faith beforehand, no?

Peace,
Joe

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:47 AM
Is election/foreknowledge/predestination based on forseen faith?

That's the OP. Is election based on foreseen faith?

if so, please use Scripture to support

if not, please use Scripture to support

Yep. Per the Ephesians 1 passage, it is, but only through Christ. Christ was the one elected, not us. There's nothing good in me. God foreknew that Christ would be sent, in order for us to have a faith that saves through Christ, the only one who was elect.

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:56 AM
Yep. Per the Ephesians 1 passage, it is, but only through Christ. Christ was the one elected, not us. There's nothing good in me. God foreknew that Christ would be sent, in order for us to have a faith that saves through Christ, the only one who was elect.

So you're saying Christ was the only person ever to be 'elect'? :confused

And where is 'foreseen faith' in Ephesians 1?

Sirus
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:56 AM
Yep. Per the Ephesians 1 passage, it is, but only through Christ. Christ was the one elected, not us. There's nothing good in me. God foreknew that Christ would be sent, in order for us to have a faith that saves through Christ, the only one who was elect.you were good enough to accept and say yes ;)

Sirus
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:58 AM
So you're saying Christ was the only person ever to be 'elect'? :confused

And where is 'foreseen faith' in Ephesians 1?
Jesus is 'mine elect', yes that is clear. Anyone else must be IN Christ.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:58 AM
So if election is required before one can be "saved" then one is saved because of election... not the cross of Christ. The cross of Christ wouldn't have even been necessary if folks were already pre-packaged (so to speak) for heaven. The doctrine is terribly flawed because it truly does put salvation by election. You are elected to have faith therefore you will have faith automatically at some point in time so it isn't even about faith... still boils down to election.

If nothing else... it is fun to watch Reformed folk dance around this fact. ;)


first off, if you agree that election is based on forseen faith or not, please provide Scripture supporting that notion

second,

God has caused us to be born again, according to his will and pleasure, to the glory of His grace.

we are saved by grace, thru faith

yes, we are saved by election, and the method by which God chose to let it play out involves faith.

it does indeed boil down to election/foreknowledge, however God has also chosen to include things such as faith and repentance, etc, dying on the cross

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:00 AM
So you're saying Christ was the only person ever to be 'elect'? :confused


Yep .

Sirus
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:02 AM
Election/predestination...and btw, predestination is not election
:B

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:06 AM
Yep .

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1 Peter 1:1-2

So who is Peter writing to here? I don't understand this Christ being the only elect.

And, please, can somebody show me where 'foreseen faith' is in Ephesians 1?

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:06 AM
And where is 'foreseen faith' in Ephesians 1?

It's not.

It's here:

Galatians 3
5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.



And here:


Genesis 12
1Now the LORD said to Abram,
"Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father's house,
To the land which I will show you;
2And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
3And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." 4So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him; and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
5Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his nephew, and all their possessions which they had accumulated, and the persons which they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan; thus they came to the land of Canaan.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:07 AM
Yep. Per the Ephesians 1 passage, it is, but only through Christ. Christ was the one elected, not us. There's nothing good in me. God foreknew that Christ would be sent, in order for us to have a faith that saves through Christ, the only one who was elect.


the problem i see with using this interpretation is that i dont see any mention of forseen faith. Also, Jesus clearly says that those who come to Him were already belonging to the Father before they even came to Christ. Also, Jesus says that ALL that are the Fathers WILL come to Him.

i do believe God chose us in Christ, but i dont think that means that He chose based on those that would get In christ by faith, because as seen in the previous Scripture i posted, faith comes from Christ. Faith is in Christ.

also, the Bible consistently says that God has caused us to be born again, that He chose us according to His will, not according to works, and many many times Paul does contrasts works with grace and the will of God.

considering ephesians 1 in light of the whole book and the whole Bible, i do not find one Scripture that would lead me to believe that chose us in Christ means that God waited to see who would get themselves into Christ then chose them.

it actually seems the exact opposite in the Bible:

Acts 13:47

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

appontment, leading to belief. I have yet to see a verse saying belief, leading to appointment. I am in no way inclined to read this and then say, belief caused the appointment


but as i said maybe if you all have some Scriptures that i have not seen that would convince me that the chose us in Christ means that God foresaw faith.....

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:09 AM
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1 Peter 1:1-2

So who is Peter writing to here? I don't understand this Christ being the only elect.



Read Ephesians 1, just for what it says.

Luke 9
34While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.
35Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
36And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.



Christ. The Father's only Chosen. He stood alone.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:10 AM
It's not.

It's here:

Galatians 3
5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.



And here:


Genesis 12
1Now the LORD said to Abram,
"Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father's house,
To the land which I will show you;
2And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
3And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed." 4So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him; and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
5Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his nephew, and all their possessions which they had accumulated, and the persons which they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan; thus they came to the land of Canaan.


this is talking about righteousness by faith. I believe this to indeed be true. But i am talking about the very calling and choice of Abraham. The reason why God called out Abraham in the first place. this verse in no way teaches that election is based on foreseen faith. This is simply an account of Abraham having faith.

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:16 AM
Read Ephesians 1, just for what it says.

What do you mean?

How do you account for all the times 'elect' is used in the Bible?

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:16 AM
this is talking about righteousness by faith. I believe this to indeed be true. But i am talking about the very calling and choice of Abraham. The reason why God called out Abraham in the first place. this verse in no way teaches that election is based on foreseen faith. This is simply an account of Abraham having faith.

By faith.

And look - because of his faith - he was credited with righteousness. Faith first.

It is through Abraham's faith that "the seed" - Christ - predestined, elect, from before the foundation of the world, would come and faith for all to come to Him was established. The Seed - Christ - is what gives us the promise. Christ, elect. The only One. Stood alone.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:21 AM
Yep .
yes christ is chosen. was he the only one chosen though?

"You did not choose me, but i chose you and appointed you that you would bear much fruit"

And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed

(sounds like more than just Jesus alone)

Thessalonians 2:13 states "...God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

sounds like more than just Jesus again

27 God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. verse 30 (literally): "From him [God] you are in Christ Jesus

sounds like more than just Jesus being chosen?

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:22 AM
What do you mean?

Just read the words for what they say. Nothing more, nothing less.



Just as He chose us in Him

before the foundation of the world

that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

In love,

He predestined us to adoption as sons

through Jesus Christ to Himself

according to the kind intention of His will,

to the praise of the glory of His grace

which He freely bestowed on us

in the Beloved.

In Him we have redemption through His blood,

the forgiveness our our trespasses,

according to the riches of His grace,

which he lavished upon us.

Ephesians 1:4-8

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:25 AM
Just read the words for what they say. Nothing more, nothing less.

What about Peter then? Should we not read his words for what they say?

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 1 Peter 1:1-2

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:26 AM
By faith.

And look - because of his faith - he was credited with righteousness. Faith first.

It is through Abraham's faith that "the seed" - Christ - predestined, elect, from before the foundation of the world, would come and faith for all to come to Him was established. The Seed - Christ - is what gives us the promise. Christ, elect. The only One. Stood alone.

there is something that precedes faith

it is called grace

it makes dead people alive

But [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Ephesians+2#f2) God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

notice how he mentions grace in parentheses after mentioning being made alive by God. we are saved by grace, thru faith. grace proceeds faith. Gods grace is of such a nature that He makes dead people alive, i do not see the notion that He waits for dead people to choose to be alive?
James 1:18
Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

of His own will

He

brought

us

forth

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:28 AM
Just read the words for what they say. Nothing more, nothing less.



Just as He chose us in Him

before the foundation of the world

that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

In love,

He predestined us to adoption as sons

through Jesus Christ to Himself

according to the kind intention of His will,

to the praise of the glory of His grace

which He freely bestowed on us

in the Beloved.

In Him we have redemption through His blood,

the forgiveness our our trespasses,

according to the riches of His grace,

which he lavished upon us.

Ephesians 1:4-8

we already agree that he chose us in Him. We are asking for you to prove that chose us in Him means that God foreknew that we would get in Christ and thus chose us on account of our choosing Christ.

When I hear chose us in Him, i hear He chose us, who believe, in and through Christ, according to His own will, not according to our foreseen faith, or works, so that no man should boast, and tha HE CAUSED us to be born again. Thats how i read chose us in Him. As Jesus says, ALL who the Father gives me WILL COME. Before they even come to Jesus they belong to God.

would you please show a verse that says God chose us because He foresaw our faith

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:37 AM
By faith.

And look - because of his faith - he was credited with righteousness. Faith first.

It is through Abraham's faith that "the seed" - Christ - predestined, elect, from before the foundation of the world, would come and faith for all to come to Him was established. The Seed - Christ - is what gives us the promise. Christ, elect. The only One. Stood alone.


But did God choose to call and select Abraham based on His foreknowledge of faith, that is what i am asking. I already know we are righteous by faith. I believe that fully. I am saying did God call out Abraham because He foresaw that Abraham would have faith. It is my view that God chose people before that had done anything good or bad so that His purpose of election would continue, so that it depends not on human will or exerhtion, but on God, who has mercy. In fact, prior to God choosing Abraham, Abrahams family worshipped false gods.

so i hope you see i am trying to be convinvced that God chooses, calls, and elects, based on foreseen faith. i am not asking if we are righteous thru faith.

we believe THRU grace. grace enables us to believe.

Acts 18: 27 .."those who had believed thru grace"

My question is did Abraham recieve the grace to believe BECAUSE God foresaw he would have faith. if so, please provide Scripture to support

it actually seems that appointment is first:

Acts 13:47

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

it seems the Bible says that appointment preceeds belief

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:39 AM
yes christ is chosen. was he the only one chosen though?

Yep. Again.



Thessalonians 2:13 states "...God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."


2 Thessalonians 2
13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.



There's that word "through" again. What is the gospel? The good news of Christ. Who is Christ - the only elect, through sanctification and faith, by the Spirit. One hears the gospel, and through the gospel of Christ...


Faith comes by hearing, and through faith the promise can be received.






27 God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. verse 30 (literally): "From him [God] you are in Christ Jesus

sounds like more than just Jesus being chosen?

Let's make sure we are saying where we are quoting not all can search it out.

1 Corinthians 1
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
29so that no man may boast before God.
30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."



Called - can't be directly through God. In all the world's wisdom - they did not come to know God.


So instead of the wordly wise - God sent His Son Christ Jesus. By His doing we are in Christ.



In Christ, through Christ. One elect. That is the only way we are chosen.

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:41 AM
But did God choose to call and select Abraham based on His foreknowledge of faith, that is what i am asking. I already know we are righteous by faith. I believe that fully. I am saying did God call out Abraham because He foresaw that Abraham would have faith. It is my view that God chose people before that had done anything good or bad so that His purpose of election would continue, so that it depends not on human will or exerhtion, but on God, who has mercy. In fact, prior to God choosing Abraham, Abrahams family worshipped false gods.

so i hope you see i am trying to be convinvced that God chooses, calls, and elects, based on foreseen faith. i am not asking if we are righteous thru faith.

No, Abraham had faith in God. Because of his faith, righteousness was credited to him. Because of that faith, God would send A SEED though whom the promise would be fufilled. In, through Christ, that seed. By no other, who was slain before the foundation of the world. Christ was the Father's only elect.

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:52 AM
Luke 18

8"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

Christ will look for faith in Him when He returns. Not the elect people, but those of faith who will receive the promise through Christ who is the elect. Faith in Him.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:56 AM
Yep. Again.




2 Thessalonians 2
13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.



There's that word "through" again. What is the gospel? The good news of Christ. Who is Christ - the only elect, through sanctification and faith, by the Spirit. One hears the gospel, and through the gospel of Christ...


Faith comes by hearing, and through faith the promise can be received.







Let's make sure we are saying where we are quoting not all can search it out.

1 Corinthians 1
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
29so that no man may boast before God.
30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."



Called - can't be directly through God. In all the world's wisdom - they did not come to know God.


So instead of the wordly wise - God sent His Son Christ Jesus. By His doing we are in Christ.



In Christ, through Christ. One elect. That is the only way we are chosen.

Christ is not the only elect. as 1st Peter says: to the elect exhiles. the individuals are reffered to as elect. Gods purpose of election as reffered to in Romans 9 was talking about individuals, namely esau and Jacob and pharoah and Paul and his brethren

"Called - can't be directly through God. In all the world's wisdom - they did not come to know God." Yes. Exactly. The wisdom of the world has not come to know God. i agree here

Of His own will He brought us forth sounds pretty clear here

He has CAUSED us to be born again

yes He calls us through the gospel, and we hear, BECAUSE we are His sheep

"you do not believe, because you are not of my flock, my sheep hear my voice"

yes He calls us through the gospel, and because we are His sheep we hear, i agree with you here


Faith comes by hearing, and through faith the promise can be received.

yes i agree, we recieve the promise thru faith. I also believe that grace enables faith. I also believe that God gives faith. I also believe that faith is found IN christ

1 timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus


i agree we are saved through faith
i agree we are saved thru Jesus
I believe we are called

i also believe God caused us to be born again

i also believe that we believe Because we are already sheep

i also believe that ALL who the FATHER GIVES to Christ WILL come to Christ and that Christ WILL raise them up on the last day


i agree.

i also agree that ultimately God chose us according to his will and nothing outside of Himself or in reaction to our first choosing Him and nothing that we were going to do apart from Him giving grace and granting repentance, to the praise of His glory.

i also believe He made us alive WHILE we were dead by grace





now could you please show me using Scripture that election is BASED on foreseen faith. Please show one Scripture that says God elected us based on Him seeing that we would get ourselves in christ or that we would have faith apart from a work of Him in us

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:59 AM
Jeremiah 2
21"Yet I planted you a choice vine,
A completely faithful seed
How then have you turned yourself before Me
Into the degenerate shoots of a foreign vine?
22"Although you wash yourself with lye
And use much soap,
The stain of your iniquity is before Me," declares the Lord GOD.

Christ was already planted. A faithful seed. Not seeds, but one. One seed. That is Christ.

John 15
1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.



Christ is the vine. The Father is the vinedresser - the one who planted it. He makes us clean. Christ, through Him, is the only way we will get clean.

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:01 AM
What does it take to be a sheep, reformedct? I've laid out a lot of scripture, show me how one becomes a sheep, reconciled to and known by Christ.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:01 AM
Luke 18

8"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

Christ will look for faith in Him when He returns. Not the elect people, but those of faith who will receive the promise through Christ who is the elect. Faith in Him.

again, im not arguing about faith. we are saved by grace thru faith, i get it. I am asking did we recieve the grace BECAUSE God looked down in human history and saw that we would choose Him.

We already know Jesus will find faith. AS it says, then we who are alive will be caught up with him. "those days will be shortened on account of the elect"

Stan will try to decieve the elect

BrckBrln
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:04 AM
threebigrocks, what does Peter mean in this verse?

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:07 AM
What does it take to be a sheep, reformedct? I've laid out a lot of scripture, show me how one becomes a sheep, reconciled to and known by Christ.

i believe we are "sheep" because we already belong to the Father accordin to grace and that just as He reserved a remnant of 7000 for Himself, so now God is saving for Himself a remnant according to grace

I believe we are sheep vecause we already belong to God BEFORE we come to Christ, according to his will and purpose
John 6
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 17:6

Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

the sheep are those who belonged to God before the foundation of the world.

All that God gives to the Son will come to the Son

the Father told the Son not to lose any, not even one

The Son will raise up those who were given

those who are given to Christ already belonged to God

the sheep are those who are of Christs fold.

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:11 AM
threebigrocks, what does Peter mean in this verse?

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect

"Are elect" - through Christ. Those who have faith and believe.

First faith in and through Christ - then we are the elect. It's always been through Christ. Always will be. Anything else removes Christ from the picture, the promise we have in faith of the resurrection, because through Christ is the only way. The seed. He stood alone as it says in Luke 9.

Curious, because if it's as you describe it - done deal, no undoing possible - why the warning to the elect to beware of being deceived because some will be? Not so sure, is it?

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:12 AM
Jeremiah 2
21"Yet I planted you a choice vine,
A completely faithful seed
How then have you turned yourself before Me
Into the degenerate shoots of a foreign vine?
22"Although you wash yourself with lye
And use much soap,
The stain of your iniquity is before Me," declares the Lord GOD.

Christ was already planted. A faithful seed. Not seeds, but one. One seed. That is Christ.

John 15
1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.



Christ is the vine. The Father is the vinedresser - the one who planted it. He makes us clean. Christ, through Him, is the only way we will get clean.


i believe all of that. i also believe that those who come to Christ already belonged to God




all you have to do is show me a Scripture which clearly shows that God chose to make us alive BECAUSE He foresaw that we would believe.

It is my view and Scriptures that He caused us to be born again and that He chose us according to His will.

just provide a Scripture that clearly says God chose us (granted repentance and grace FOR faith) BECAUSE, He foresaw that we would believe. just one, and we will be done debating

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:16 AM
i believe we are "sheep" because we already belong to the Father accordin to grace and that just as He reserved a remnant of 7000 for Himself, so now God is saving for Himself a remnant according to grace

I believe we are sheep vecause we already belong to God BEFORE we come to Christ, according to his will and purpose
John 6
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 17:6

Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

the sheep are those who belonged to God before the foundation of the world.

All that God gives to the Son will come to the Son

the Father told the Son not to lose any, not even one

The Son will raise up those who were given

those who are given to Christ already belonged to God

the sheep are those who are of Christs fold.

That's all you got? ;)

John 10
26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.



The sheep hear His voice. Who's voice? Christ's. No other voice. They follow Christ. Only those who hear Christ, follow Him (requires faith wouldn't you say?) does He give eternal life. It is given to those who follow Christ.



Christ, who was predestined since before the beginning of the world. Read Ephesians 1. It's clear as day that it's all though Christ. Until we enter into Christ - we are only filthy sinners. We are nothing. Once we believe, by faith, and only then, are we considered the elect. The elect in Christ.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:16 AM
"Are elect" - through Christ. Those who have faith and believe.

First faith in and through Christ - then we are the elect. It's always been through Christ. Always will be. Anything else removes Christ from the picture, the promise we have in faith of the resurrection, because through Christ is the only way. The seed. He stood alone as it says in Luke 9.

Curious, because if it's as you describe it - done deal, no undoing possible - why the warning to the elect to beware of being deceived because some will be? Not so sure, is it?

all the admonishings are there so that we can make OUR calling and election sure. So we dont just assume we are elect

and if election was based on us choosing Christ instead of God choosing us and bringing us to Christ, there is a small problem. No one seeks God, and no one understands. Even when they have truth, they supress it in unrighteousness. Their minds are hostile to God. They have been blinded by Satan to do his will.

If it were based on us choosing, no one would be saved, but thats another thread...

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:21 AM
That's all you got? ;)

John 10
26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.



The sheep hear His voice. Who's voice? Christ's. No other voice. They follow Christ. Only those who hear Christ, follow Him (requires faith wouldn't you say?) does He give eternal life. It is given to those who follow Christ.



Christ, who was predestined since before the beginning of the world. Read Ephesians 1. It's clear as day that it's all though Christ. Until we enter into Christ - we are only filthy sinners. We are nothing. Once we believe, by faith, and only then, are we considered the elect. The elect in Christ.

yes, but did they hear and then become sheep? or where they already sheep who heard?

im not arguing that its not through Christ. Everything is through Christ. Faith and love and grace come thru Christ. i agree so please stop going in circles.

Yes Christ is elect, AND we are individually reffered to as elect. in revelations we see that Satsn will try to even decieve the elect. is it talking about Jesus being on earth being tempted by Satan again? no. I dont see how you can deny that we are all individually also elect.


please just answer this one quetion and i will let you go. repentance i necessary for salvation right? who grants repentance? deos man repent by Himself or does God grant repentance leading to knowledge of the truth?

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:26 AM
For those that He foreknew He predestined.

was it only Christ He foreknew? sounds plural to me

yes Christ was foreknown and foreordained and predestined

but not Him only

THOSE whom He foreknew He predestined

Those is a plural word

did God justify Jesus? wasnt He already sinless? why would Jesus need to be justified? i dont think He is only referring to Jesus here

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:27 AM
i believe all of that. i also believe that those who come to Christ already belonged to God




all you have to do is show me a Scripture which clearly shows that God chose to make us alive BECAUSE He foresaw that we would believe.

It is my view and Scriptures that He caused us to be born again and that He chose us according to His will.

just provide a Scripture that clearly says God chose us (granted repentance and grace FOR faith) BECAUSE, He foresaw that we would believe. just one, and we will be done debating

All I have to do? I don't have to do anything. Christ did it all.

Not all believe in Christ through faith. We can choose. It's right before us, we just need to choose Christ. It's free, and for all.

He caused Christ to be the One through who all would believe would be redeemed. We aren't chosen because He foresaw we would believe. The Father chose His Son, the one and only elect, so that we could through faith be redeemed through Christ. If we go around Christ as you seem to keep trying to do - there is no promise. That is only through Christ.

If you go around Christ, you deny the cross.

You keep demanding scripture. I could do this all night if I could keep my eyes open. It's there, you need to choose to see what I've put forth and read, simply and for what the words themselves say, and accept it. It's clear. I've pulled verses that I don't think I've seen used before to support that all things are through Christ. Consider them, and build on more than the few verses I keep seeing thread after thread.

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:28 AM
For those that He foreknew He predestined.

was it only Christ He foreknew? sounds plural to me

yes Christ was foreknown and foreordained and predestined

but not Him only

THOSE whom He foreknew He predestined

Those is a plural word

Proven with verses that brush away the fact that Ephesians 1 says exactly the opposite.

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:35 AM
yes, but did they hear and then become sheep? or where they already sheep who heard?

im not arguing that its not through Christ. Everything is through Christ. Faith and love and grace come thru Christ. i agree so please stop going in circles.

Yes Christ is elect, AND we are individually reffered to as elect. in revelations we see that Satsn will try to even decieve the elect. is it talking about Jesus being on earth being tempted by Satan again? no. I dont see how you can deny that we are all individually also elect.


please just answer this one quetion and i will let you go. repentance i necessary for salvation right? who grants repentance? deos man repent by Himself or does God grant repentance leading to knowledge of the truth?

Sheep hear the shepherds voice. They follow. Simple as that, simple as faith.

We are elect only after we believe on the One, Christ, that God sent. The only One who was elect. All things are through Christ.

We are warned during the last days that even the elect will be deceived. Once we enter into Christ, through faith, we are considered to be elect. Not before we repent and believe and have faith - after.

Who grants repentance? Christ. Until all of God's plan is complete, Christ is the All in All. The alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. And - repentance is the product of faith and realizing that we are not so much as worm poo before God. As filthy rags. Lost and damned without Christ.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:58 AM
Proven with verses that brush away the fact that Ephesians 1 says exactly the opposite.

ephesians doesnt say the opposite lol the Bible doesnt contradict its just that your interpretation of "chose us in christ" is wrong. Chose us in Christ does not mean God looked into the future, saw who would choose Christ and then chose them in response to them choosing Christ lol thats what you are trying to say.

If you consider all Scripture to support your interpretation, you will quickly find that it is faulty, because the Bible also says that no one seeks God, and that no one understands, and that even if the truth they know they supress, and that mans deeds are evil and that he does not come to the light, and that we were dead when He made us alive.

Let me just boil it down to this: I believe i chose God BECAUSE HE first chose me and did a work in me while i was dead

You believe you chose God while you were dead out of your free will, even though the Bible says no one seeks God?

Also it has been shown throughout Scripture that the individuals are also refered to as elect. God calls them His BEFORE they have even heard the gospel

the fact remains that Scripture says God considers people to be His own before they are even in Christ, therefore being in Christ COMES AFTER belonging to God in the first place.

Acts 18
9 And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people.” 11 And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Sirus
Jan 22nd 2009, 06:07 AM
there is something that precedes faith

it is called grace

it makes dead people aliveRight, it is the cross of Christ, where in we were dead with Christ that we would be alive to God by the Spirit, just as and with Christ. Grace is God's provisionary toolkit for the believer. That is how it is consistently used throughout.

Veretax
Jan 22nd 2009, 12:47 PM
No


Eph 2:8-10 is the prescription:

Eph 2:8-10 (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.




We are saved by Grace (Christ's death and resurrection on the Christ Providing a perfect substitute for our sin) through faith (our placing our trust upon Christ and his sacrifice as the perfect substitute for our sin) This is not of ourselves not by works so that we should boast (we cannot do anything according to keeping commandments or the law which will justify us before God for if we break one iota we've broken it in its entirety). This is how we are saved. Then in verese 10 we find out what God has planned for us who would express this faith through grace unto salvation. We are his Workmanship, a new creature, created in Christ jesus. Why? For good works, and these good works God prepared/ordained/predestined beforehand that we who would be of faith should walk in them.


We are not elected to salvation. We who cast our faith upon Christ's grace shed on the cross are saved, and then are elected, appointed, and were even predestined to his good service.


Also Consider:
Ro 3:19-26 (NKJV)

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:03 PM
Wikipedia's Definition in black, Scripture in purple.

Before God created the world, he chose to save some people (You did not choose me, but I chose you; as many as were appointed to eternal life believed; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy; he chose us in him before the foundation of the world; God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,") according to his own purposes (God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.; Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will; according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.; who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,) and apart from any conditions related to those persons (You did not choose me; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works; If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.; God credits righteousness apart from works:; not by works but by him who calls; It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.; before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—; And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.)


Curious, because if it's as you describe it - done deal, no undoing possible - why the warning to the elect to beware of being deceived because some will be? Not so sure, is it?

Show me one verse supporting the above statement.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:22 PM
Is election/foreknowledge/predestination based on forseen faith?

That's the OP. Is election based on foreseen faith?

if so, please use Scripture to support

if not, please use Scripture to support Sure... but then I am fully aware of the Reformed (both of you are) definition of election and how you teach it. I suspect greatly (because of Scripture) that you define it incorrectly. Thus that needs to be clarified before the OP can even begin to be answered. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:30 PM
first off, if you agree that election is based on forseen faith or not, please provide Scripture supporting that notion

second,

God has caused us to be born again, according to his will and pleasure, to the glory of His grace.

we are saved by grace, thru faith

yes, we are saved by election, and the method by which God chose to let it play out involves faith.

it does indeed boil down to election/foreknowledge, however God has also chosen to include things such as faith and repentance, etc, dying on the crossHow does it involve faith? The way Reformed folk teach this... the only way you could have faith is if you were elect and even God is the one that gives only the elect the faith to believe. By that... the cross didn't matter at all. Election is the key to salvation... without election no one can see God according to the Reformed doctrine. Again... I strongly suspect that if one would ever stop long enough to ponder that... they would begin to understand that their doctrine of election has a lot of problems.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:32 PM
Yep .I would go as far to expand that by saying that Christ and the body of Christ was elected. Not the individual Peter, Paul and Mary... but the body whole.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:44 PM
God called the entire nation of Israel His elect... and yet it didn't pan out so well with those elect. That being said... folks need to correctly define what the word denotes because it isn't a guarantee of anything yet. Israel is our example there and it is a shame to see folks still making that same mistake regardless of the example we have.

Walstib
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:44 PM
reformedct,

Did I get forgotten on the first page never to be answered? I was looking forward to this discussion, It's been a couple years since I got deep into an election thread. Don't mind my focus on definitions, I just want to be on the same page from the start. No use getting 10 pages in to realize we are not using the same language.

Peace,
Joe

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:51 PM
Wikipedia's Definition in black, Scripture in purple.

Before God created the world, he chose to save some people (You did not choose me, but I chose you; as many as were appointed to eternal life believed; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy; he chose us in him before the foundation of the world; God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,") according to his own purposes (God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.; Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.; In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will; according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.; who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,) and apart from any conditions related to those persons (You did not choose me; it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works; If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.; God credits righteousness apart from works:; not by works but by him who calls; It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.; before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—; And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.; it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.)



Show me one verse supporting the above statement.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

Wikkipedia is able to define scripture?


I would go as far to expand that by saying that Christ and the body of Christ was elected. Not the individual Peter, Paul and Mary... but the body whole.

Very true, can't argue with that.

HankZ
Jan 22nd 2009, 02:14 PM
Ezekiel 36:24-27 (New American Standard Bible)

24"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinance.

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:23 PM
Wikkipedia is able to define scripture?

The black was Wikipedia's definition of Unconditional Election.

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 03:29 PM
The black was Wikipedia's definition of Unconditional Election.

Yes, you did well to show what was what and said so. That I understand. But is Wiki an authority on scripture? No, hardly. I could go in and change it myself, which is very tempting more than once. :rolleyes: Let scripture explain itself.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:03 PM
Right, it is the cross of Christ, where in we were dead with Christ that we would be alive to God by the Spirit, just as and with Christ. Grace is God's provisionary toolkit for the believer. That is how it is consistently used throughout.

first off let me say ive been looking at my earlier posts and i have been getting out of line and have been disrespectful and i apologize to threebigrocks and sirus for my bad attitude. I will try by the grace of God to be more gentle in spirit.


now, it is clear that the "dead" in Ephesians 2 is not referring to being dead in Christ it is reffering to be dead in sins following the prince of the power of the air, then being made Alive by God by grace and seated in heavenly places

Yes, we are saved thru faith

but faith comes by and thru grace.

Acts 18:27:

27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed,


no grace no faith. No one seeks God. If you have or experience the will to choose God, it is God who is at work in you both to will(want to do) and to do (actually do)

the grace by which we are saved is not painted as a lifeguard that sticks out a hand to dead people floating in the pool waiting for them to respond.

the grace painted in Scripture is explained as the power of God, and Paul puts it in parenthesis right after explaining that God has made us alive.(by grace you have been saved thru faith)

the grace of God is an active and successful work of God

The reason i am not convinced that "chose us in Christ" means that God waited to see who would choose Christ and then chose them because of it, is because the Bible clearly and repeatedly states that it is because of the Fathers will that we are in Christ.

Also, Jesus makes it clear that though we repent and believe, Jesus chooses us first, so that God gets all the glory.

Jesus also makes us His own. He doesnt simply wait to see who will come to Him. He lays hold of us. Phillipians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

also it is clear that not only Jesus was predestined. Also it is clear that God foreknowledge is why we had faith not the other way around. It repeatedly says we are called according to His purpose not forseen faith:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f7) for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Notice how faith is assumed and directly a result of predestination. Notice that God is aultimately attributed for justifying us, not merely us ourselves having faith, but the very process of being justified is because of the act of God. As Jesus says, all who the Father GIVE ME

1 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f8) against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

The elect is not only talking about Jesus. The elect are those who are justified as well. SOmeone made the comment that the elect will fall away in the last days. This is not true. The Bible says that Satan will try to decieve the elect, if it were possible. Satan also tempted Jesus, if it were possible that he could make Him stumble. The fact that the Bible says, if it were possible implies that it will not be, which is inline with Scripture that declares all who are justified shall be glorified.

So in conclusion, the very faith used to believe comes thru grace, and the grace that is described in the Bible is a grace that God uses to MAKE dead people alive. It is because of Him that we are in Christ. So not only did He choose us in Christ, He also chose us to be in Christ
1 Corinthians 1:30
30 And because of him [4] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+1#f4) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

He has caused us to be born again. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is the power of God


i have yet to be provided with an argument that salvation is based on God choosing us because we first chose Him. The argument of "chose us in Christ" is not effecient because the Bible is also clear that our coming to and being in Christ is attributed to the Father, who gave us to Christ, who draws, us, who makes us alive, and who causes us to be born again

also we have clearly seen that faith comes thru grace. You cannot have faith without grace. The grace of God is of such a type that it MAKES dead people alive. It does not wait for the possibility of people dead in sins who do not seek God to somehow choose the God that they are hostile towards. AS the bible says, men love darkness and do not come to the light

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:05 PM
reformedct,

Did I get forgotten on the first page never to be answered? I was looking forward to this discussion, It's been a couple years since I got deep into an election thread. Don't mind my focus on definitions, I just want to be on the same page from the start. No use getting 10 pages in to realize we are not using the same language.

Peace,
Joe


forgive me, you are right, i mixed the words.

If you believe foreknowledge simply means forseen faith, please provide Scripture to support this idea

lets forget about election for now and focus on foreknowledge. as seen in romans 8 it begins with Gods foreknowledge.

It is my view so far, in light of all Scripture and various greek study, that the word foreknowledge not only means foreknowing of future events, but also denotes a foreordination and choice to enter into relationship with, and that this is done by God according to His will, and that He foreknows based on Himself and His own counsel, to foreknow an exact number of peoples (those He foreknew). to justify them and to glorify them.

i have yet to be shown Scripture that would support the idea that foreknowledge simply means knowing that in the future some would have faith. I do see numerous accounts that it points the opposite direction. That God reserves for Himself a people according to grace. "i will be gracious to whom i will be gracious"

John146
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:13 PM
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

This passage clearly shows that election (God choosing people) is for salvation. So the idea that God elects everybody is false unless you believe in universalism which is also false. And the reason God elects us is 'according to the purpose of his will'. And what is His will?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

His will is for everyone that believes in His Son to have everlasting life. So, I believe when it says "He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will" it doesn't mean that He predestined us to believe in Christ but rather means that He predestined us to be adopted as children according to whether or not we believed in His Son. Since He knew beforehand who would believe and who wouldn't, that is how He could predestine us to be adopted as His children.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:13 PM
God called the entire nation of Israel His elect... and yet it didn't pan out so well with those elect. That being said... folks need to correctly define what the word denotes because it isn't a guarantee of anything yet. Israel is our example there and it is a shame to see folks still making that same mistake regardless of the example we have.

actually the example in Romans 9 was to show that not all ISrael was truly israel, that the true israel are those who recieve the promise. The context is also salvation in Christ, as seen in the opening verses of the chapter. secindly, if it were about nations, why would Paul mention pharoae individually. ALso why would Paul mention "who can resist his will?" also why does he say it is not on human will but depends on God. ALso why are all Pauls examples individual people:hmm:

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:15 PM
And what is His will?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

His will is for everyone that believes in His Son to have everlasting life. So, I believe when it says "He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will" it doesn't mean that He predestined us to believe in Christ but rather means that He predestined us to be adopted as children according to whether or not we believed in His Son. Since He knew beforehand who would believe and who wouldn't, that is how He could predestine us to be adopted as His children.

God does desire that all come to Him, but it does not happen. God does however make some who are dead in sins alive by grace. God also grants repentance to individuals. It all starts with God.Yes God desires all to who see the son to believe . WHo will believe in the son? All who the father GIVEs to Jesus

John146
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:21 PM
actually the example in Romans 9 was to show that not all ISrael was truly israel, that the true israel are those who recieve the promise. The context is also salvation in Christ, as seen in the opening verses of the chapter. secindly, if it were about nations, why would Paul mention pharoae individually. ALso why would Paul mention "who can resist his will?" also why does he say it is not on human will but depends on God. ALso why are all Pauls examples individual people:hmm:Jacob and Esau were obviously individuals, but they represented two nations.

Genesis 25:20 And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian. 21And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
24And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
25And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
26And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

When it mention Jacob and Esau in Romans 9, it has nothing to do with being elected to salvation or not. The mention of Pharaoh has nothing to do with him being condemned to hell, either, but instead has to do with God using him to "shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Rom 9:17).

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:23 PM
Jacob and Esau were obviously individuals, but they represented two nations.

Genesis 25:20 And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian. 21And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
24And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
25And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
26And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

When it mention Jacob and Esau in Romans 9, it has nothing to do with being elected to salvation or not. The mention of Pharaoh has nothing to do with him being condemned to hell, either, but instead has to do with God using him to "shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Rom 9:17).

romans 9 makes no refrence to the two nations unless you just assume that and put it in to amke it say that. The context is salvation ,as Paul clearly mentions in the opening verses. He clearly distinguishes that not all ethnic israel are israel. true israel is made up of the elect. that is the point of the passage,not the two nations. the point made with Pharoah is that no one can resist His will, that He has mercy on whom He has mercy, that He hardens whom He will harden, that He makes some vessels for good use, some for bad. The point of Romans 9 is the sovreign choice of God, in context to being in Christ

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:25 PM
God does desire that all come to Him, but it does not happen. God does however make some who are dead in sins alive by grace. God also grants repentance to individuals. It all starts with God.Yes God desires all to who see the son to believe . WHo will believe in the son? All who the father GIVEs to Jesus

Grace only comes through Christ though, right?

John146
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:27 PM
God does desire that all come to Him, but it does not happen. God does however make some who are dead in sins alive by grace. God also grants repentance to individuals. It all starts with God. WHo will believe in the son? All who the father GIVE to JesusHow can you say that you believe God desires that all come to Him and also believe that He doesn't give everyone a chance to come to Him? Tell me how that makes any sense. Many are called, but few are chosen. God does call all people, but not all respond with repentance and faith. Why? It is because they willfully refuse to repent and believe and not because they cannot repent and believe.

Matt 22:1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
14For many are called, but few are chosen.

The first few verses of this parable are referring to the Jews. They were invited to the wedding. They were called to repent and believe so that they could be saved. But they would not. It wasn't that they could not. They willfully chose to reject the gospel.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:28 PM
Grace only comes through Christ though, right?

Yes, but it begins with God th Father giving us to Christ of His own will. The very coming to Christ, being able to hear and understand, and being able to have faith is all grace, the power of God.

The fact that you came to faith is because the grace of God made you. He caused you to se and to be born again. The knowledge of the kingdom was given to you

threebigrocks
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:33 PM
Yes, but it begins with God giving us to Christ. The very coming to Christ, being able to hear and understand, and being able to have faith is all grace, the power of God.

Ephesians 2
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

If grace only comes through Christ, how is it through the Father, who gave Christ that we may see grace through Him.

John 1
6For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

This is what ProjectPeter hit on this a few posts up.

ProjectPeter
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:34 PM
actually the example in Romans 9 was to show that not all ISrael was truly israel, that the true israel are those who recieve the promise. The context is also salvation in Christ, as seen in the opening verses of the chapter. secindly, if it were about nations, why would Paul mention pharoae individually. ALso why would Paul mention "who can resist his will?" also why does he say it is not on human will but depends on God. ALso why are all Pauls examples individual people:hmm:Let's take Pharaoh as your example. What did Paul say about him really?

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:39 PM
Ephesians 2
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.




John 1
6For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

This is what ProjectPeter hit on this a few posts up.


Yes i agree. He made us alive. with Christ. while we were dead in tresspasses. grace and truth were realized in Christ yes i believe all of that.

I also believe that He brought us forth of His own will, that no one will even truly come to Christ unless God draws them, and that the whole work of salvation is not of ourselves in any way shape or form.

John146
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:41 PM
romans 9 makes no refrence to the two nations unless you just assume that and put it in to amke it say that.Are you saying we shouldn't try to use scripture to interpret scripture? The passage I quoted from Genesis 25 is referenced in Romans 9. But I guess we shouldn't refer to it to aid our understanding?


The context is salvation ,as Paul clearly mentions in the opening verses. He clearly distinguishes that not all ethnic israel are israel. true israel is made up of the elect. that is the point of the passage,not the two nations. the point made with Pharoah is that no one can resist His will, that He has mercy on whom He has mercy, that He hardens whom He will harden, that He makes some vessels for good use, some for bad. The point of Romans 9 is the sovreign choice of God, in context to being in ChristWhen it speaks of God having mercy on whom He will have mercy and hardening who He will harden it's not saying that He just randomly has mercy on some while randomly hardening the rest. Yet, that is what you seem to believe.

Who does God have mercy on? As far as mercifully giving people a chance to believe, He has mercy upon all people.

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Does God harden people randomly or do people harden their own hearts before God gives them over to their rebellion and hardens their hearts even further?

2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


God gives people over to their wickedness and hardens their hearts only after they have already willfully chosen to not receive the love of the truth, not glorify Him or thank Him, change the truth of God into a lie and not retain God in their knowledge.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:42 PM
Ephesians 2
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.




John 1
6For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

This is what ProjectPeter hit on this a few posts up.


Yes i agree. He made us alive. with Christ. while we were dead in tresspasses. grace and truth were realized in Christ yes i believe all of that.

I also believe that He brought us forth of His own will, that no one will even truly come to Christ unless God draws them, and that the whole work of salvation is not of ourselves in any way shape or form, and that it is because of Him that we are even in Christ in the first place, as the Bible rightly says

reformedguy
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:44 PM
Yes i agree. He made us alive. with Christ. while we were dead in tresspasses. grace and truth were realized in Christ yes i believe all of that.

I also believe that He brought us forth of His own will, that no one will even truly come to Christ unless God draws them, and that the whole work of salvation is not of ourselves in any way shape or form, and that it is because of Him that we are even in Christ in the first place, as the Bible rightly says


Well put. This derserves a big hearty AMEN !:)

John146
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:46 PM
Yes, but it begins with God th Father giving us to Christ of His own will. The very coming to Christ, being able to hear and understand, and being able to have faith is all grace, the power of God.

The fact that you came to faith is because the grace of God made you. He caused you to se and to be born again. The knowledge of the kingdom was given to youSo, you believe that God withholds that knowledge from most people? Why would that be? Is God a respecter of person? Is He unequal? Please tell me how you interpret the following passage:

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Veretax
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:50 PM
Reformeddct,

I disagree with you. Grace is the Provision for the possibility of salvation, it is the gift, but like all gifts it must be accepted to have any effect. It does no good to say hey I have a rescue boat for those stranded on the island, if the boat is not accepted and got on by the survivors of the ship wreck. Therefore, Grace provides the possibility of salvation, where before by the law no flesh could be justified.

However, grace only effects salvation on an individual once that person accepts that grace by placing their Faith in Christ. You need both to have a salvation 'experience' otherwise to the person who denies and does not accept or put their faith in Christ, to that person, grace is despised.


Note that while you are correct that he begins by reminding the Ephesians that they are saved by grace. What is grace? Unmerited favor. That means there is nothing we could do of the law which could justify (We know this from Romans). However, just because someone offers something with out us meriting or deserving it does not mean we accept it. A man who is destitute and hungry could be offered food, and yet because he despises the charity of the person giving him that provision he could refuse it for pride's sake.

The passage in ephesians concludes with 2:8-10 which make it is clear that it is by grace THROUGH faith and that not of ourselves, not of something we can work or strive for (lest we should boast), it is the gift of God. Now you are taking this leap that saving faith is the gift of God. I don't believe that it is, at least not in the reformed since that those who are saved believe because God in essence forced the faith upon them. That I don't believe.

If we have faith, it is because being created in the likeness of God we have this intangible attribute called Faith, which even as natural men can exercise. We put faith in electricity, faith in people, faith in mechanical devices, faith that certain things happen. However, if God thus does give even natural mean some understanding of what faith is, then ALL men have faith as an attribute of being Human beings and thus having been presented with the Gospel of Grace through Jesus on the Cross then have the responsibility of responding to that message by putting their Faith in Christ. If they don't put their faith in Christ, but keep it in the world, or things in the world then they are still dead in Sin.




Now as for your election discourse. I've come to understand that God has multiple Wills. There is his Soverign will (every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord), and his Moral will (The law). According to God's Moral will he desires that we all keep it, but we know that is not possible for a natural man to keep the law an thus be justified. this is difference then God's Soverign will in which God wills things to happen and they do. (Example: Pharoah, the Ten Plagues, and the Egyptians/Exodus)

The bible is clear that he calls ALL to repentance, all to come to him, yet not all come. Why? Because Grace alone does not save. Grace provides a way, it builds the bridge across the Chasm of Sin which separates us from God, but we by faith must walk across that bridge in order to reach that other side of the Chasm where God is. That is faith.

Now, We know nothing exists that was not created by him and for him, and God gets the Glory for everything. The bible says that those who are his who are saved are determined to be conformed to the image of Christ. What does that mean? It means that we shall be made like him. This does not fully happen when we put our Faith in Christ, it is a life long process.

Let's take Christmas as an example. As a child I knew ahead of time that I was going to receive a certain toy as a gift. It was on my list, I hadn't seen it, but I knew without a doubt that I would receive it, and I did. Now before I ever laid my hands onto that toy, I had already imagined all the ways I would use that new toy, how I would play with it, where it would stand or drive, and all the ways I would play with it and care for it. Now Did I predestine that I'd receive that Toy? No. I may have had it on the wishlist, but the Toy only came into my posession because someone else gifted it to me. I did not give it to myself. Yet I knew i would get it, I knew it in my heart that it was so (and granted as a human being I've often thought I'd get certain things and did not, but for this analogy that is not important). No the predestiny for that toy was that when it came to me I would use it for the purpose I envisioned it being used.

That is what I see the bible teaching. God knows who will come, and to those he will come he has said certain things.

1. that we will be conformed to the image of christ

2. That we would be called to his Service

3. That we would be justified befiore God

4. That we would be glorified by him.

Ro 8:28-30 (NKJV)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.




also it is clear that not only Jesus was predestined. Also it is clear that God foreknowledge is why we had faith not the other way around. It repeatedly says we are called according to His purpose not forseen faith:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+8#f7) for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Notice how faith is assumed and directly a result of predestination. Notice that God is aultimately attributed for justifying us, not merely us ourselves having faith, but the very process of being justified is because of the act of God. As Jesus says, all who the Father GIVE ME

Who are called according to his purpose? I say that all are Called. At one time God primarily called Israel, but when they rejected him, the gospel fell to the gentiles, and now are all the world called. He knew before (he knows all before, see: Jeremiah for an example, so it is not just the case of knowing about people before for God knows all, know it is refering to knowing those would would respond to the call.) This seems to be the point where we disagree. Admittedly, I used to believe as you did, that it was God's grace and call that picked me particularly out, but God is not a respector of persons, he knows all men, and the Gospel is clearly to be preached to all, thus calling all to repentance in Christ.

Yet not all come because they are in rebellion against God. I think earlier in romans that some had so rebelled that he gave them over to a Reprobate mind. Why? Because they denied the truth that was right in front of them.

All are Called, some respond by faith, those who respond by faith are then conformed to the image of God, and area also called (again second time in that passage it is used, and This I believe is a secondary calling, the calling to Good Works, Service, or Ministry. We are to be made like Christ for god Ordained that those who would respond by faith would be made like him. Why? So that Christ could be the first fruits. And THEN those he predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ he also Justifies, and glorifies. The Justifying and Glorifying in the end happen because of the previous two. Because of the response to the calling, by faith, and because we who respond by faith or ordained to be conformed to the image of Christ. In essence, when God looks at Christians, he sees Christ and not Sin. Thus since there is no sin in Christ he then Justifies us, and as he also Glorified Christ, he will glorify us.


Yes Grace came first, grace was the provision, the making of a way to salvation, but it is still man's responsibility to take hold of that promise of grace by faith, to walk across the bridge that spans the chasm.

John146
Jan 22nd 2009, 04:52 PM
Yes i agree. He made us alive. with Christ. while we were dead in tresspasses. grace and truth were realized in Christ yes i believe all of that.

I also believe that He brought us forth of His own will, that no one will even truly come to Christ unless God draws them, and that the whole work of salvation is not of ourselves in any way shape or form.Why didn't Paul and Silas make that clear to the prison keeper then? Shouldn't they have told him that there was nothing he could do to be saved?

Acts 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Walstib
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:39 PM
forgive me, you are right, i mixed the words. No worries brother, I just wanted to make sure I understood where you are coming from.
If you believe foreknowledge simply means forseen faith, please provide Scripture to support this ideaI don’t believe that so I won’t even attempt it.
lets forget about election for now and focus on foreknowledge. as seen in romans 8 it begins with Gods foreknowledge. Great I like focus. My posts are huge when I try and address everything at once, no time for that. I am fortunate if I get two or three indepth posts done in a day.
It is my view so far, in light of all Scripture and various greek study, that the word foreknowledge not only means foreknowing of future events, I would just stop there myself. It would need context to mean anything else. The word in Greek was in existence before Paul wrote his letters or Christian theology gave room for adding to the definition. An ancient Greek person could say they have forknowlege that one plus one equals two.
but also denotes a foreordination and choice to enter into relationship with, and that this is done by God according to His will, and that He foreknows based on Himself and His own counsel, to foreknow an exact number of peoples (those He foreknew). to justify them and to glorify them. This is doctrine outside of the definition itself that is built using precepts in scripture. Logical, but logical fallacy. I think ;) You have given a nutshell version of unconditional election. The Greek person in the above example would be scratching his head about what all that has to do with addition.
i have yet to be shown Scripture that would support the idea that foreknowledge simply means knowing that in the future some would have faith. Won’t find anyone with it I think. Just means knowing beforehand.
I do see numerous accounts that it points the opposite direction. That God reserves for Himself a people according to grace. "i will be gracious to whom i will be gracious" I think this is simply saying that we can’t blackmail God for our salvation. We can’t force His graciousness but it does not mean we can’t participate in a plan He has for us to recieve it.

Want to stay here or change focus?

Peace,
Joe

TrustingFollower
Jan 22nd 2009, 06:04 PM
Yes i agree. He made us alive. with Christ. while we were dead in tresspasses. grace and truth were realized in Christ yes i believe all of that.

I also believe that He brought us forth of His own will, that no one will even truly come to Christ unless God draws them, and that the whole work of salvation is not of ourselves in any way shape or form, and that it is because of Him that we are even in Christ in the first place, as the Bible rightly says
God has made provisions to call all people to Christ.

Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Romans 10:14-17 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? (15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" (16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" (17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:10-12 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. (11) For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Hebrews 2:1-4 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. (2) For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, (3) how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, (4) while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

We can see that God has made his calling (drawing) very clear to all mankind through all creation, preaching of the gospel, work of the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the believer now with their spiritual gift. Along with all the sings, wonders and miracles that have been preformed in this world since it was created. God has never drawn back the hand he extended to mankind, but we have to grasp that hand which is Christ by having faith in him.

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:15 PM
God has made provisions to call all people to Christ.

Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Romans 10:14-17 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? (15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" (16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" (17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:10-12 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. (11) For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Hebrews 2:1-4 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. (2) For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, (3) how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, (4) while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

We can see that God has made his calling (drawing) very clear to all mankind through all creation, preaching of the gospel, work of the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the believer now with their spiritual gift. Along with all the sings, wonders and miracles that have been preformed in this world since it was created. God has never drawn back the hand he extended to mankind, but we have to grasp that hand which is Christ by having faith in him.

Dead men don't grasp hands.

God made his calling very clear.

God made His dragging only to the elect.

cross crusader
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:53 PM
has anyone here read the book by Watchman Nee? dont laugh real man, real name.. the title of the book is The Spiritual Man. it really explains what this debate here is trying to figure out...i suggest for any pre-elected folk to read it. it was written in the 20's. it is only about 700 pages.
also let me ask this, according to pre-destination, so if God decides beforehand our salvation, and other things in our lives, did He pre-determine Joshua to be the one leading the children of Israel into the promise land? i mean if God pre-chose me to be saved i had no choice in it, so according to this theory, when God chose moses to be the one to take the children of Israel into the promise land (all of whom never made it, because i guess God didnt want them in there...yeah right) all of that was just a means to let Joshua grow up to be old enough to do it, Moses was never gonna do it. But we clearly have been told in scripture it was because of Moses striking the rock for water in anger that he was not gonna be the one. so pre-destination doesnt really fit, if it is true in one place it has to be true for all. i mean Moses made a choice that prohibited him from entering. Just like we make a choice today that either prohibits us from being saved or allows us to be saved. That is why Paul keeps calling himself a bondservant, you know a servant who stayed out of love even know they are free to leave, CHOOSING to stay and serve.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:56 PM
Yes i agree. He made us alive. with Christ. while we were dead in tresspasses. grace and truth were realized in Christ yes i believe all of that.

I also believe that He brought us forth of His own will, that no one will even truly come to Christ unless God draws them, and that the whole work of salvation is not of ourselves in any way shape or form.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I'll second that. .with a 2nd Hearty Amen! AMEN...

Salvation belongs to Him and Him alone...

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 09:36 PM
God has made provisions to call all people to Christ.



yes, there is a general call to all: make disciples of all nations, but Romans 8 is clearly expressing an effectual call.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.(KJV)

all those in this verse were glorified.

If this verse was reffering to a general call, we must conclude that every human being will be saved. because those whom He called, THEM he also jsutified, and those whom he justified, THEM he also glorified. NO one who was foreknown was not glorified in this chain. the call goes out to all, but not all are effectually called. Those who are effectually called are those who were foreknown


i was doing some studying on the word foreknowledge in the greek as compared to its other uses in the Bible. It does indeed connotate appointment or foreordination:

Foreknowledge was determinative and not merely predictive in the coming of Christ.


Acts 2:23, "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, ...."



Here, "determined purpose" and "foreknowledge" are linked by a greek grammatical form called the Granville-Sharp Rule. This makes the two nouns synonymous for emphasis, like saying "right and good" or "evil and wrong." The word "determined" here is formed of the same verb from which "predestination" is derived.



Peter declares the coming of Christ was both arranged and appointed by God.

I Peter 1:20, "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world..."



The word "foreordained" here is PROGINOSKO - "foreknow". Note that in the case of Christ that God's foreknowledge was more than merely predictive. It would be absurd to say that the Father merely "foreknew" the coming of Christ. Jesus was appointed to the office of Christ. All circumstances relating to His coming were arranged in advance. History was made for Him, not He for history.



Acts 4:27-28 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

The same principles apply to the election of the believer. A favorite text of opponents to Election is I Peter 1:2.



"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....." (verse 2).

"Foreknowledge" in verse 3 and "foreordained" in verse 20 are the same word, and mean the same thing. In verse 20, it refers to Jesus himself in his appointment as redeemer. In verse 2 it also refers to an appointment, in this case of believers appointed to obedience.

Notice he says for obedience, not because of obedience. Peter wishes all to understand that God has appointed the elect for obedience just as he appointed Jesus as redeemer. Any other interpretation fails to explain the usage of the same word in the same context, and would create an absurdity with regard to Christ.






even foreknowledge cross-refrenced in the Bible does not only simply mean to know future events, especially when pertaining to the foreknowledge of God

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 09:41 PM
God gives people over to their wickedness and hardens their hearts only after they have already willfully chosen to not receive the love of the truth, not glorify Him or thank Him, change the truth of God into a lie and not retain God in their knowledge.

you have made a great point that is ususally an area of misunderstanding. I also believe that God hardens peoples hearts not directly by flipping a switch but by allowing them to use their wicked will to rebel against Him. I dont believe God forced pharoah to have a hard heart, God made pharoahs heart hard by showing that He was the true God and offering repentance, yet pharoah continually refused.

However i also believe that mercy given is not based on works, as Romans 9 clearly states. And if God decides to be merciful to you, you can not resist His will.

also, i am not against using Scripture to interpret Scripture, what i am saying is that within the context of Romans 9 the context is those in Christ, the making up of true Israel, and the sovreignty and justice of God electing whoever He wants for whatever He wants, not based on works, and that His election is determined before anyone has done either good or bad

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 09:49 PM
So, you believe that God withholds that knowledge from most people? Why would that be? Is God a respecter of person? Is He unequal? Please tell me how you interpret the following passage:

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


yes. IF the wicked turn from their wicked way. The question is, WILL he aprt from God?

Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

just because God desires that the wicked turn does not mean they will, as seen with pharoah

yes, IF the wicked turn they will be blessed. Problem is, unless God opens their hearts to take heed to His word, they will continue with a heart of stone.

Jeremiah 32:
39I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.

no one seeks God
there is no fear before their eyes

yes, God chooses to reveal spiritual truths to whomever He wants. He shares His truth with everyone, but people supress the truth they have or they are just blinded by Satan and cannot see. It is God who determines to breakthrough the rebellion and blindness, as he did with Pauls conversion

Matthew 17

The Purpose of the Parables

10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.


13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’


its not that God does not share the truth to all, its that Satan has blinded their minds and they cannot accept spiritual truth unless God grants them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.


2 Timothy 2:25-26 - if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.


2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled... to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


God desires all men to be saved. But no one chooses Him. SO He, in His mercy, causes some to born again, by His grace.

God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+1#f3) might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+1#f4) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

The whole point of God choosing us is so that we will boast in Him and not hold onto one drop of "self-wrought" faith.

This does not mean that people who want to be saved wont be able to get in because they are not chosen by God. All who thirst for Christ are the chosen. those who arent chosen are the ones that God allows to willfully deny Him all their life

grace is not just an open possibility. God ACTIVELY chooses to open hearts whenever He pleases so that they WILL fear Him and so they WILL NOT turn from Him



Psalm 10:4 - The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, "There is no God."
John 3:20 - "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

i think Scripture is pretty clear that no one comes to God out of their own depraved minds and hearts and wills

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 09:59 PM
Reformeddct,

I disagree with you. Grace is the Provision for the possibility of salvation, it is the gift, but like all gifts it must be accepted to have any effect.
However, grace only effects salvation on an individual once that person accepts that grace by placing their Faith in Christ. You need both to have a salvation 'experience' otherwise to the person who denies and does not accept or put their faith in Christ, to that person, grace is despised.



Yes Grace came first, grace was the provision, the making of a way to salvation, but it is still man's responsibility to take hold of that promise of grace by faith, to walk across the bridge that spans the chasm.

Please provide Scripture that says grace is merely a general provisional thing opening the possibilty of faith and not the actual power of God acting and causing us to be born again. As Jesus said, ALL who the Father GIves ME WILL Come to me. And I will raise him up on the last day.

No one can come to me unless the Father draw him. (that verse in context is directly said on account of Him knowing that Judas would betray him) Jesus clearly points out that all those who are outwardly disciples are not His. Only those whom are drawn by the Father are His.

as i stated before yes all are called to repentance (general call)

then there are those who are effectually called because of His foreknowledge of them

Romans 8 is not reffering to a general call. If it were, all will be glorified, which means all go to heaven. That would be universalism according to Romans 8:30


Acts 13:47

AS many as were appointed to eternal life believed

did they believe and thus became appointed, or were they appointed and then believed

Does everyone already have grace?

"I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious"

"So he has mercy on who He wills, and He hardens whom He wills"

Either you get mercy or are allowed to be hardened.

Who is ultimately responsible for us being in Christ?

God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+1#f3) might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+1#f4) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

ther was purpose in Gods individual choosing: SO that no one may boast. This was not just an opening up to the possibility of heaven. The Scriptures clearly say that God specifically calls individuals

All who the FATHER gives me WILL come to me.

God generally calls all to repentance, and He actually gives it to some

2 Timothy 2:25 - correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,






"[quote
I would just stop there myself. It would need context to mean anything else. The word in Greek was in existence before Paul wrote his letters or Christian theology gave room for adding to the definition. An ancient Greek person could say they have forknowlege that one plus one equals two.


This is doctrine outside of the definition itself that is built using precpts in scripture. Logical, but logical fallacy. I think ;) You have given a nutshell version of unconditional election. The Greek person in the above example would be scratching his head about what all that has to do with addition. Quote:


Just means knowing beforehand.[quote/;

-----------------------------------------------------------



Foreknowledge was determinative and not merely predictive in the coming of Christ.


Acts 2:23, "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, ...."

Here, "determined purpose" and "foreknowledge" are linked by a greek grammatical form called the Granville-Sharp Rule. This makes the two nouns synonymous for emphasis, like saying "right and good" or "evil and wrong." The word "determined" here is formed of the same verb from which "predestination" is derived.





Peter declares the coming of Christ was both arranged and appointed by God.

I Peter 1:20, "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world..."

The word "foreordained" here is PROGINOSKO - "foreknow". Note that in the case of Christ that God's foreknowledge was more than merely predictive. It would be absurd to say that the Father merely "foreknew" the coming of Christ. Jesus was appointed to the office of Christ. All circumstances relating to His coming were arranged in advance. History was made for Him, not He for history.




Acts 4:27-28 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

The same principles apply to the election of the believer. A favorite text of opponents to Election is I Peter 1:2.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....." (verse 2).




"Foreknowledge" in verse 3 and "foreordained" in verse 20 are the same word, and mean the same thing. In verse 20, it refers to Jesus himself in his appointment as redeemer. In verse 2 it also refers to an appointment, in this case of believers appointed to obedience.




Notice he says for obedience, not because of obedience. Peter wishes all to understand that God has appointed the elect for obedience just as he appointed Jesus as redeemer. Any other interpretation fails to explain the usage of the same word in the same context, and would create an absurdity with regard to Christ.


Foreknowledge means "foreordained" with regard to Israel, because God ignored Israel's persistent rebellion.


Romans 11:2 "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew".

What was it that God "foreknew" about the Jews? That they would respond favorably to Him by their free will? Hardly! Notice the context.

"But to Israel he says: 'All day long I have stretched out My Hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'" Romans 10:21

If the foreknowledge view were correct, then God should have rejected the Jews as candidates for Election. Foreseen obedience had nothing to do with God's election of Israel.

Lexicon Evidence:

Foreknowledge: The Greek terms are PROGINOSKO (verb: to know or ordain before hand) and PROGINOSIS (noun: foreknowledge or foreordination). It is common for words in any language to have two or more meanings, usually a primary meaning and then a secondary.

Such is the case with PROGINOSIS. The primary is "foreknowledge", the secondary is "foreordination". How do we distinguish the difference? It is "foreordained" when Divine appointments and activity are in view, as in the above scriptures. This holds true also to our appointments as believers to the office and function of God's elect.


1.Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon: PROGINOSKO: Know beforehand or choose beforehand.

2.Newman's Greek-English Dictionary: PROGINOSKO: know already; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand.

3. Louw & Nida: PROGINOSKO: Know beforehand or Chose beforehand. There exists no good quality in man to foresee.
The foreknowledge view normally asserts that God foresees one of several qualities in man which attract His grace.

Was it faith He foresaw? Hardly! Faith itself is a work of grace based on election according to Acts 13:47

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 18:27 those who had believed through grace;

Jesus Christ himself is the source of our faith.

1Tim. 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

Was it perhaps our sanctification that God foresaw? It depends on who does the sanctifying. According to Jude 1, God the Father does it.

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ

Circular reasoning would come into play here if foreknowledge of our sanctification were the cause of election. What about a willing heart? Paul explicitly denies this in Romans 9:16

So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Could some goodness or righteousness in man be the quality God foresaw? Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 3 to kill this notion.

There is none who does good, no, not one." "There is none righteous, no, not one;" V.10 "There is none who does good, no, not one." V.12

Was it because God foresaw some would seek him and some would not?

"There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." Ro.3:11

It is persons God foresees (appoints), not some good quality in them. Because foreknowledge does not tempt people to blame God for unfairness. Any doctrine which fails to do this must be rejected according to Romans 9:19-20.

The very reason why many accept foreknowledge as an explanation of Election is actually strong reason for rejecting it. We call this a 'paradox proof.' Its intent is to refute the other view, but it refutes itself instead. Foreknowledge does not lead a person to ask "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" verse 19 NIV.

If Paul felt that foreknowledge were a factor, then why didn't he say so instead of concluding that it is none of man's business to ask such questions? "But who are you, Oh man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, Why did you make me like this? Verse 20 NIV. To discover which of these two viewpoints, foreknowledge or Election, is the correct one, we need only to ask ourselves which of these two seems to be the least "fair", and we have the correct one.

TrustingFollower
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:40 PM
Dead men don't grasp hands.

God made his calling very clear.

God made His dragging only to the elect.
It clearly says God is calling all to Christ and that believing comes from hearing. Let's look at it again and then you show me what part confuses you.

Romans 10:9-18 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. (13) For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (14) How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? (15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" (16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" (17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (18) But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

So faith comes from hearing which also goes along with what Jesus said he was here to do.

Luke 4:43 but he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose."

Looks like we have Christ personally calling to all in the world with this passage. This also lines up with what he says in John 3 whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Christ is the only one predestined, all others come after the fact through faith in Christ.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:49 PM
It clearly says God is calling all to Christ and that believing comes from hearing. Let's look at it again and then you show me what part confuses you.

Romans 10:9-18 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. (13) For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (14) How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? (15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" (16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" (17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (18) But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

So faith comes from hearing which also goes along with what Jesus said he was here to do.

Luke 4:43 but he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose."

Looks like we have Christ personally calling to all in the world with this passage. This also lines up with what he says in John 3 whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Christ is the only one predestined, all others come after the fact through faith in Christ.

those whom he foreknew. those whom he predestined. The Bible clearly opposses your assumption that only Christ was predestined


also, hearing does not equal faith. just because all hear does not mean they will obey

Matthew 17

The Purpose of the Parables

10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.


13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’



22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.



only those who are called effectually experience the power of Christ. ervyone else considers it folly when they hear

yes, fith comes by hearing. does that mean that everyone who hears will come to faith? no

Yes you are right and i agree that Christ calls out to all. but guess what, not all who hear will understand.

Deuteronomy 29:2-4 - And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders. Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled... to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

God already knows who belongs to Him

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

ALL who the Father gives me WILL come to me

it is God who grants belief and causes us to be born again. He does not merely wait and see who will choose to be born again

Phillipians 1

28 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

belief is granted

does belief cause appointment or does appointment cause belief?

Acts 13:47
as many as were appointed to eternal life believed

TrustingFollower
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:55 PM
yes, there is a general call to all: make disciples of all nations, but Romans 8 is clearly expressing an effectual call.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.(KJV)

all those in this verse were glorified.



Let's look at the verses you are referring to here.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Now you have to use the gray matter between the ears to see how much using these verses make no sense for the predestination camp. The verse says "those whom he foreknew", So what you are saying God only foreknew the predestined elect according to the reform doctrine. What about all the unbelievers of the world? Did God not know all those people whom he also made and formed in their mothers womb?

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 10:58 PM
It clearly says God is calling all to Christ and that believing comes from hearing. Let's look at it again and then you show me what part confuses you.

Romans 10:9-18 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. (13) For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (14) How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? (15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" (16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" (17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (18) But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

So faith comes from hearing which also goes along with what Jesus said he was here to do.

Luke 4:43 but he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose."

Looks like we have Christ personally calling to all in the world with this passage. This also lines up with what he says in John 3 whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Christ is the only one predestined, all others come after the fact through faith in Christ.

I never denied God calls all.

However, many are called, but few are chosen.

As for Christ being the only one predestined, you would need to redefine words in the Scripture.

For those God foreknew he also predestined

he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

I would never assume that Christ is "those", "us", or "we"

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:00 PM
Let's look at the verses you are referring to here.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Now you have to use the gray matter between the ears to see how much using these verses make no sense for the predestination camp. The verse says "those whom he foreknew", So what you are saying God only foreknew the predestined elect according to the reform doctrine. What about all the unbelievers of the world? Did God not know all those people whom he also made and formed in their mothers womb?

thanks for the insult. lol

your assumption is that foreknew only means that God knows that something will happen in the future. Foreknowledge also connatates appointment. thats why Romans 8:30 doesnt make sense to you

Acts 13:47

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed


as i posted earlier:

Foreknowledge was determinative and not merely predictive in the coming of Christ.


Acts 2:23, "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, ...."

Here, "determined purpose" and "foreknowledge" are linked by a greek grammatical form called the Granville-Sharp Rule. This makes the two nouns synonymous for emphasis, like saying "right and good" or "evil and wrong." The word "determined" here is formed of the same verb from which "predestination" is derived.





Peter declares the coming of Christ was both arranged and appointed by God.

I Peter 1:20, "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world..."

The word "foreordained" here is PROGINOSKO - "foreknow". Note that in the case of Christ that God's foreknowledge was more than merely predictive. It would be absurd to say that the Father merely "foreknew" the coming of Christ. Jesus was appointed to the office of Christ. All circumstances relating to His coming were arranged in advance. History was made for Him, not He for history.




Acts 4:27-28 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

The same principles apply to the election of the believer. A favorite text of opponents to Election is I Peter 1:2.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....." (verse 2).




"Foreknowledge" in verse 3 and "foreordained" in verse 20 are the same word, and mean the same thing. In verse 20, it refers to Jesus himself in his appointment as redeemer. In verse 2 it also refers to an appointment, in this case of believers appointed to obedience.




Notice he says for obedience, not because of obedience. Peter wishes all to understand that God has appointed the elect for obedience just as he appointed Jesus as redeemer. Any other interpretation fails to explain the usage of the same word in the same context, and would create an absurdity with regard to Christ.


Foreknowledge means "foreordained" with regard to Israel, because God ignored Israel's persistent rebellion.


Romans 11:2 "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew".

What was it that God "foreknew" about the Jews? That they would respond favorably to Him by their free will? Hardly! Notice the context.

"But to Israel he says: 'All day long I have stretched out My Hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'" Romans 10:21

If the foreknowledge view were correct, then God should have rejected the Jews as candidates for Election. Foreseen obedience had nothing to do with God's election of Israel.

Lexicon Evidence:

Foreknowledge: The Greek terms are PROGINOSKO (verb: to know or ordain before hand) and PROGINOSIS (noun: foreknowledge or foreordination). It is common for words in any language to have two or more meanings, usually a primary meaning and then a secondary.

Such is the case with PROGINOSIS. The primary is "foreknowledge", the secondary is "foreordination". How do we distinguish the difference? It is "foreordained" when Divine appointments and activity are in view, as in the above scriptures. This holds true also to our appointments as believers to the office and function of God's elect.


1.Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon: PROGINOSKO: Know beforehand or choose beforehand.

2.Newman's Greek-English Dictionary: PROGINOSKO: know already; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand.

3. Louw & Nida: PROGINOSKO: Know beforehand or Chose beforehand. There exists no good quality in man to foresee.
The foreknowledge view normally asserts that God foresees one of several qualities in man which attract His grace.

Was it faith He foresaw? Hardly! Faith itself is a work of grace based on election according to Acts 13:47

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 18:27 those who had believed through grace;

Jesus Christ himself is the source of our faith.

1Tim. 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

Was it perhaps our sanctification that God foresaw? It depends on who does the sanctifying. According to Jude 1, God the Father does it.

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ

Circular reasoning would come into play here if foreknowledge of our sanctification were the cause of election. What about a willing heart? Paul explicitly denies this in Romans 9:16

So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Could some goodness or righteousness in man be the quality God foresaw? Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 3 to kill this notion.

There is none who does good, no, not one." "There is none righteous, no, not one;" V.10 "There is none who does good, no, not one." V.12

Was it because God foresaw some would seek him and some would not?

"There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." Ro.3:11

It is persons God foresees (appoints), not some good quality in them. Because foreknowledge does not tempt people to blame God for unfairness. Any doctrine which fails to do this must be rejected according to Romans 9:19-20.

The very reason why many accept foreknowledge as an explanation of Election is actually strong reason for rejecting it. We call this a 'paradox proof.' Its intent is to refute the other view, but it refutes itself instead. Foreknowledge does not lead a person to ask "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" verse 19 NIV.

If Paul felt that foreknowledge were a factor, then why didn't he say so instead of concluding that it is none of man's business to ask such questions? "But who are you, Oh man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, Why did you make me like this? Verse 20 NIV. To discover which of these two viewpoints, foreknowledge or Election, is the correct one, we need only to ask ourselves which of these two seems to be the least "fair", and we have the correct one.

Now, i hope you will understand that foreknew also means ordain beforehand.



thats why Romans 8:30 proves that the effectually called will not lose their salvation. All who He foreknew, HE glorified. there were no dropouts

ALL that the Father gives me, WILL come to me, and i will raise HIM up on the last day


just to be fair, i also was skeptikal of the reformed view of foreknowledge, however after further study i have found that it indeed means far more than just knowing someone.

For example, Adam knew Eve, and she bore a son

when the Bible uses the word know it does not always mean knowing the future or knowing all knowledge.

TrustingFollower
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:03 PM
I never denied God calls all.

However, many are called, but few are chosen.

As for Christ being the only one predestined, you would need to redefine words in the Scripture.

For those God foreknew he also predestined

he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

I would never assume that Christ is "those", "us", or "we"
Tell me then why we have to be adopted into God's family?

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:05 PM
So what you are saying God only foreknew the predestined elect according to the reform doctrine. What about all the unbelievers of the world? Did God not know all those people whom he also made and formed in their mothers womb?

What does Christ say to those that are not born again? I never knew you.

Scripture confirms Scripture.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:06 PM
Tell me then why we have to be adopted into God's family?

thats what foreknowledge is. the choice of God to adopt us in His family. Thats why Jesus says "they were yours"

and you do not believe becuase you are not my sheep, my sheep hear me

and All that the Father give me Will come to me

thats what makes adoption such an honorable act. it is taking in those who cannot help themselves out of your own good heart

God adopted us. He was not obligated to do so because he knew that we would choose Him. He knew that without His saving power we would not understand and that we would not choose Him, because no one seeks God and our minds have been blinded

Yukerboy
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:07 PM
Tell me then why we have to be adopted into God's family?

To be God's Children? :dunno:

Maybe I'm not understanding the question...

TrustingFollower
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:08 PM
thanks for the insult. lol

your assumption is that foreknew only means that God knows that something will happen in the future. Foreknowledge also connatates appointment. thats why Romans 8:30 doesnt make sense to you

Acts 13:47

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed


as i posted earlier:

Foreknowledge was determinative and not merely predictive in the coming of Christ.


Acts 2:23, "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, ...."

Here, "determined purpose" and "foreknowledge" are linked by a greek grammatical form called the Granville-Sharp Rule. This makes the two nouns synonymous for emphasis, like saying "right and good" or "evil and wrong." The word "determined" here is formed of the same verb from which "predestination" is derived.





Peter declares the coming of Christ was both arranged and appointed by God.

I Peter 1:20, "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world..."

The word "foreordained" here is PROGINOSKO - "foreknow". Note that in the case of Christ that God's foreknowledge was more than merely predictive. It would be absurd to say that the Father merely "foreknew" the coming of Christ. Jesus was appointed to the office of Christ. All circumstances relating to His coming were arranged in advance. History was made for Him, not He for history.




Acts 4:27-28 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

The same principles apply to the election of the believer. A favorite text of opponents to Election is I Peter 1:2.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....." (verse 2).




"Foreknowledge" in verse 3 and "foreordained" in verse 20 are the same word, and mean the same thing. In verse 20, it refers to Jesus himself in his appointment as redeemer. In verse 2 it also refers to an appointment, in this case of believers appointed to obedience.




Notice he says for obedience, not because of obedience. Peter wishes all to understand that God has appointed the elect for obedience just as he appointed Jesus as redeemer. Any other interpretation fails to explain the usage of the same word in the same context, and would create an absurdity with regard to Christ.


Foreknowledge means "foreordained" with regard to Israel, because God ignored Israel's persistent rebellion.


Romans 11:2 "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew".

What was it that God "foreknew" about the Jews? That they would respond favorably to Him by their free will? Hardly! Notice the context.

"But to Israel he says: 'All day long I have stretched out My Hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'" Romans 10:21

If the foreknowledge view were correct, then God should have rejected the Jews as candidates for Election. Foreseen obedience had nothing to do with God's election of Israel.

Lexicon Evidence:

Foreknowledge: The Greek terms are PROGINOSKO (verb: to know or ordain before hand) and PROGINOSIS (noun: foreknowledge or foreordination). It is common for words in any language to have two or more meanings, usually a primary meaning and then a secondary.

Such is the case with PROGINOSIS. The primary is "foreknowledge", the secondary is "foreordination". How do we distinguish the difference? It is "foreordained" when Divine appointments and activity are in view, as in the above scriptures. This holds true also to our appointments as believers to the office and function of God's elect.


1.Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon: PROGINOSKO: Know beforehand or choose beforehand.

2.Newman's Greek-English Dictionary: PROGINOSKO: know already; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand.

3. Louw & Nida: PROGINOSKO: Know beforehand or Chose beforehand. There exists no good quality in man to foresee.
The foreknowledge view normally asserts that God foresees one of several qualities in man which attract His grace.

Was it faith He foresaw? Hardly! Faith itself is a work of grace based on election according to Acts 13:47

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 18:27 those who had believed through grace;

Jesus Christ himself is the source of our faith.

1Tim. 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

Was it perhaps our sanctification that God foresaw? It depends on who does the sanctifying. According to Jude 1, God the Father does it.

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ

Circular reasoning would come into play here if foreknowledge of our sanctification were the cause of election. What about a willing heart? Paul explicitly denies this in Romans 9:16

So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Could some goodness or righteousness in man be the quality God foresaw? Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 3 to kill this notion.

There is none who does good, no, not one." "There is none righteous, no, not one;" V.10 "There is none who does good, no, not one." V.12

Was it because God foresaw some would seek him and some would not?

"There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." Ro.3:11

It is persons God foresees (appoints), not some good quality in them. Because foreknowledge does not tempt people to blame God for unfairness. Any doctrine which fails to do this must be rejected according to Romans 9:19-20.

The very reason why many accept foreknowledge as an explanation of Election is actually strong reason for rejecting it. We call this a 'paradox proof.' Its intent is to refute the other view, but it refutes itself instead. Foreknowledge does not lead a person to ask "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" verse 19 NIV.

If Paul felt that foreknowledge were a factor, then why didn't he say so instead of concluding that it is none of man's business to ask such questions? "But who are you, Oh man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, Why did you make me like this? Verse 20 NIV. To discover which of these two viewpoints, foreknowledge or Election, is the correct one, we need only to ask ourselves which of these two seems to be the least "fair", and we have the correct one.

Now, i hope you will understand that foreknew also means ordain beforehand.



thats why Romans 8:30 proves that the effectually called will not lose their salvation. All who He foreknew, HE glorified. there were no dropouts


The passage is in a specific wording not speaking of generalization here.

Now in order to even bother continuing with this you need to actually think this stuff through and stop copying and pasting someone else's stuff here. All that is doing is showing that you are not interested in exploring God's word for what it means and that you are just looking to win a debate. If God is just about winning a debate to you then you have a long way to go.

TrustingFollower
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:16 PM
To be God's Children? :dunno:

Maybe I'm not understanding the question...
If you were predestined before the foundation of the world you would already be a son of God's, you would not have to be adopted into the family. It's like when my wife and I had our kids. When she got pregnant I knew the kid was mine along with the rest of the world. I did not have to go to court to adopt the kids my wife was carrying in her womb. Same go for us and God's children, God uses the physical world here to testify to what happen in the spiritual realm.

Christ is the only begotten son and the rest are adopted children. Why adopted because we are not natural children and only gain access to the family through faith in Christ. So Christ is the only one that could possibly be predestined form before the foundation of the world. Let alone the fact that all the people in this world were actually made by Christ.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:18 PM
The passage is in a specific wording not speaking of generalization here.

Now in order to even bother continuing with this you need to actually think this stuff through and stop copying and pasting someone else's stuff here. All that is doing is showing that you are not interested in exploring God's word for what it means and that you are just looking to win a debate. If God is just about winning a debate to you then you have a long way to go.

im not trying to "win" a debate. i am simply sharing with you that i am convicted and convinced that foreknowledge does not simply mean Gods knowing what would happen in the future

if you dont agree with me thats fine, but i have yet to see one Scripture that says that foreknowledge means that God appointed us based on forseen faith.

In fact the Bible seems to point in the opposite direction

Acts 13:47

As many as had been apointed to eternal life(past tense) believed(present tense)

everyone who is appointed believes.

when i have searched for why i am in Christ, this is what i have found:

28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+1#f3) might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+1#f4) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God

James 1

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. [4] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=James+1#f4) 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead


No one can come unless the Father draws him. AS i said before this statement by Jesus was directly towards the fact that He knew Judas would betray Him. Christ has made it clear that just because one is a disciple outwardly does not mean they are among those whom the Father draws

You did not choose me, i chose you

phillipians 3 2 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.



if you believe that foreknowledge is based on the future knowledge of faith,

simply provide a Scripture which clearly says it and we will be done

i believe we are ultimately saved by God according to his own will and that He caused us to be born again and i have provided Scripture.

TrustingFollower
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:21 PM
What does Christ say to those that are not born again? I never knew you.

Scripture confirms Scripture.
That is after they had the chance to chose him. Before the foundation of the world all were perfect as no sin even existed yet. So if you are going to stick with that argument then you are making God into an unjust God by saying he judged before anything was even made. But scripture tells us that it is not the case as Christ will judge on faith at the end of this world.

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:24 PM
That is after they had the chance to chose him. Before the foundation of the world all were perfect as no sin even existed yet. So if you are going to stick with that argument then you are making God into an unjust God by saying he judged before anything was even made. But scripture tells us that it is not the case as Christ will judge on faith at the end of this world.

your type of assumptions have already been answered

9 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+9#f3) be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”



God saved a remnant aby grace, as He does today

God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. (not faith) 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


The hardening of God simply means that He alows you to freely do as you please. And apart from God all of us would freely reject him. If God did not save us we would have rejected Him and we all would be like Sodom and Gommorah

yes, everyone chooses to reject God. and apart from God, thats what they Always would choose

you should be very thankful for this. If God had not chosen to save you you would have never accepted Christ. it would be foolishness to you. BUt God in His mercy has saved you by grace

reformedct
Jan 22nd 2009, 11:36 PM
If you were predestined before the foundation of the world you would already be a son of God's, you would not have to be adopted into the family. It's like when my wife and I had our kids. When she got pregnant I knew the kid was mine along with the rest of the world. I did not have to go to court to adopt the kids my wife was carrying in her womb. Same go for us and God's children, God uses the physical world here to testify to what happen in the spiritual realm.

Christ is the only begotten son and the rest are adopted children. Why adopted because we are not natural children and only gain access to the family through faith in Christ. So Christ is the only one that could possibly be predestined form before the foundation of the world. Let alone the fact that all the people in this world were actually made by Christ.

you are disagreeing with a lot of philosphy and personal opionion but not with Scripture.

and yes there is a sense in which we are already Gods children:

Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

Before we even came to Christ we were considered children of God., God already foreknew us(appointed us to eternal life)

Those who are appointed believe:

Acts 13:47

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

Belief is impossible without grace

Acts 18:27
"..those who had belived thru grace"

Jesus called His sheep His sheep before he was even crucified: other sheep i have that are not of this pasture

He didnt say: i might be able to make some more sheep if they believe. He said they were already His sheep

All that the Father gives me will come to me

Of his disciples: "They were yours"

this brings much hope for evangelism. We already know that there are indeed sheep out there, we just gotta go find em!

RogerW
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:21 AM
Hi Reformedct,

You have a very good and clear understanding of the doctrines of predestination and election. I too give you a hearty AMEN for faithfully bringing these difficult doctrines to light.

John Murray says: "Even if it were granted that 'foreknew' means foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith; he foresees all that comes to pass. The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith, which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith he himself creates (cf. Jo 3:3-8; 6:44,45,65; Eph 2:8; Phil 1:29; 2Pe 1:2). Hence his eternal foresight of faith is preconditioned by his decree to generate this faith in those whom he foresees as believing."

God knew us (believers), and established we would have a relationship with Him in eternity. He foreknew us...savingly! In His foreknowledge, and election He wrote our names in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. Why were only some names written in His book? The antithesis of this is what the Lord said in Mt 7:23, "depart from Me, I never knew you." The promise for us is that He foreknew us before the world was made...What God established in eternity, He brings about in time in our salvation through Christ our Lord. We were not saved in eternity, we were elected to be saved in time.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yukerboy
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:35 AM
That is after they had the chance to chose him. Before the foundation of the world all were perfect as no sin even existed yet. So if you are going to stick with that argument then you are making God into an unjust God by saying he judged before anything was even made. But scripture tells us that it is not the case as Christ will judge on faith at the end of this world.

God can never be unjust as He is the Creator. Whatever He decides to do, no matter how man tries to change it, is just.

God already judged, chose, decided, and planned all that would happen.

reformedct
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:49 AM
Hi Reformedct,

You have a very good and clear understanding of the doctrines of predestination and election. I too give you a hearty AMEN for faithfully bringing these difficult doctrines to light.

John Murray says: "Even if it were granted that 'foreknew' means foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith; he foresees all that comes to pass. The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith, which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith he himself creates (cf. Jo 3:3-8; 6:44,45,65; Eph 2:8; Phil 1:29; 2Pe 1:2). Hence his eternal foresight of faith is preconditioned by his decree to generate this faith in those whom he foresees as believing."

God knew us (believers), and established we would have a relationship with Him in eternity. He foreknew us...savingly! In His foreknowledge, and election He wrote our names in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. Why were only some names written in His book? The antithesis of this is what the Lord said in Mt 7:23, "depart from Me, I never knew you." The promise for us is that He foreknew us before the world was made...What God established in eternity, He brings about in time in our salvation through Christ our Lord. We were not saved in eternity, we were elected to be saved in time.

Many Blessings,
RW

thank you for the piece from John Murray. very interesting quote:cool:

TrustingFollower
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:41 AM
Those who are appointed believe:

Acts 13:47

And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

I don't have time right now to address your entire post, but this part is driving me nuts. You have quoted this same passage at least 3 times in the last 20 posts of this thread. You are stating it is Acts 13:47, but it reads completely different than any Acts 13:47 than I can find. What version are you getting your quote from?

Here is the ESV version:
Acts 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

Here is the NSAB version:
Acts 13

47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, `I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.´"

Here is the NIV version:
Acts 13:47
47For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
" 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

Here is the KJV :
Acts 13

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Walstib
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:41 AM
Hi reformedct,

I’m just going to jump in here because it was the subject we were talking about.
Here, "determined purpose" and "foreknowledge" are linked by a greek grammatical form called the Granville-Sharp Rule. This makes the two nouns synonymous for emphasis, like saying "right and good" or "evil and wrong." The word "determined" here is formed of the same verb from which "predestination" is derived.The Granville-Sharp Rule…. Lets say it is sound and proper without getting into the arguments against it.

“When the copulative kai connects two nouns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun) of the same case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_(linguistics)), if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle ..*

*Sharp, Granville (1798). Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament, Containing Many New Proofs of the Divinity of Christ, from Passages Which Are Wrongly Translated in the Common English Version (http://www.theologue.org/downloads/sharp.pdf). London. p. 8.

As I am reading this it says that the second noun (προγνωσειforeknowledge G4268 N-DSF ) realtes to the same person ((τουτονHim G5126 D-ASM) Jesus from previous verses).

This saying that God delivered Jesus with both “determined purpose” and foreknowledge. I have no issues with this. It is not saying they mean the same thing it is saying they relate to the same subject, Jesus. This is my understanding.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....." (verse 2).
"Foreknowledge" in verse 3 and "foreordained" in verse 20 are the same word, and mean the same thing. In verse 20, it refers to Jesus himself in his appointment as redeemer. In verse 2 it also refers to an appointment, in this case of believers appointed to obedience.

1Pe 1:2κατα according G2596 PREP προγνωσιν to the foreknowledgeG4268 N-ASF θεου of God G2316 N-GSM πατρος the Father G3962 N-GSM εν through G1722 PREP αγιασμω sanctification G38 N-DSM πνευματος of the Spirit G4151 N-GSN εις unto G1519 PREP υπακοην obedience G5218 N-ASF και and G2532 CONJ ραντισμον sprinkling G4473 N-ASM αιματος of the blood G129 N-GSN ιησου of Jesus G2424 N-GSM χριστου Christ G5547 N-GSM χαρις Grace G5485 N-NSF υμιν unto you G5213 P-2DP και and G2532 CONJ ειρηνη peace G1515 N-NSF πληθυνθειη be multiplied. G4129 V-APO-3S

1Pe 1:20προεγνωσμενου was foreordained G4267 V-RPP-GSM μεν Who verily G3303 PRT προ before G4253 PREP καταβολης the foundation G2602 N-GSF κοσμου of the world G2889 N-GSM φανερωθεντος was manifest G5319 V-APP-GSM δε but G1161 CONJ επ in G1909 PREP εσχατων these last G2078 A-GPM των G3588 T-GPM χρονων times G5550 N-GPM δι for G1223 PREP υμας you. G5209 P-2AP

The English translation taken from the KJV to the corresponding verse and word Strongs numbers.
Codes taken from Textus Receptus Greek New Testament Scrivener 1894.


Two different words as far as I can tell, one is a noun, one is a verb, and the voice, tense, mood and case all come into the mix as well. I just can’t see the connection you are making with both meaning appointment. That Jesus was foreordained and believers are “according to the foreknowledge” seems to agree with what I presently am convicted of. EDIT: I know one is "rooted" in the other, this does not mean they are the same word or meaning.


Notice he says for obedience, not because of obedience. Peter wishes all to understand that God has appointed the elect for obedience just as he appointed Jesus as redeemer. Any other interpretation fails to explain the usage of the same word in the same context, and would create an absurdity with regard to Christ. I think an argument can be made that the sanctification of the Spirit leads unto obedience. The more sanctified we are the more obedient we are.

even foreknowledge cross-refrenced in the Bible does not only simply mean to know future events, especially when pertaining to the foreknowledge of God
The word is used twice, both addressed here.

Peace,
Joe

reformedct
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:50 AM
I don't have time right now to address your entire post, but this part is driving me nuts. You have quoted this same passage at least 3 times in the last 20 posts of this thread. You are stating it is Acts 13:47, but it reads completely different than any Acts 13:47 than I can find. What version are you getting your quote from?

Here is the ESV version:
Acts 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

Here is the NSAB version:
Acts 13

47 "For so the Lord has commanded us, `I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.´"

Here is the NIV version:
Acts 13:47
47For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
" 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

Here is the KJV :
Acts 13

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

i am sooooo sorry! lol

it Acts 13:48

sorry for the mix up

reformedct
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:56 AM
Hi reformedct,

I’m just going to jump in here because it was the subject we were talking about.The Granville-Sharp Rule…. Lets say it is sound and proper without getting into the arguments against it.

“When the copulative kai connects two nouns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun) of the same case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_%28linguistics%29), if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle ..*

*Sharp, Granville (1798). Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament, Containing Many New Proofs of the Divinity of Christ, from Passages Which Are Wrongly Translated in the Common English Version (http://www.theologue.org/downloads/sharp.pdf). London. p. 8.

As I am reading this it says that the second noun (προγνωσειforeknowledge G4268 N-DSF ) realtes to the same person ((τουτονHim G5126 D-ASM) Jesus from previous verses).

This saying that God delivered Jesus with both “determined purpose” and foreknowledge. I have no issues with this. It is not saying they mean the same thing it is saying they relate to the same subject, Jesus. This is my understanding.


1Pe 1:2κατα according G2596 PREP προγνωσιν to the foreknowledgeG4268 N-ASF θεου of God G2316 N-GSM πατρος the Father G3962 N-GSM εν through G1722 PREP αγιασμω sanctification G38 N-DSM πνευματος of the Spirit G4151 N-GSN εις unto G1519 PREP υπακοην obedience G5218 N-ASF και and G2532 CONJ ραντισμον sprinkling G4473 N-ASM αιματος of the blood G129 N-GSN ιησου of Jesus G2424 N-GSM χριστου Christ G5547 N-GSM χαρις Grace G5485 N-NSF υμιν unto you G5213 P-2DP και and G2532 CONJ ειρηνη peace G1515 N-NSF πληθυνθειη be multiplied. G4129 V-APO-3S

1Pe 1:20προεγνωσμενου was foreordained G4267 V-RPP-GSM μεν Who verily G3303 PRT προ before G4253 PREP καταβολης the foundation G2602 N-GSF κοσμου of the world G2889 N-GSM φανερωθεντος was manifest G5319 V-APP-GSM δε but G1161 CONJ επ in G1909 PREP εσχατων these last G2078 A-GPM των G3588 T-GPM χρονων times G5550 N-GPM δι for G1223 PREP υμας you. G5209 P-2AP

The English translation taken from the KJV to the corresponding verse and word Strongs numbers.
Codes taken from Textus Receptus Greek New Testament Scrivener 1894.


Two different words as far as I can tell, one is a noun, one is a verb, and the voice, tense, mood and case all come into the mix as well. I just can’t see the connection you are making with both meaning appointment. That Jesus was foreordained and believers are “according to the foreknowledge” seems to agree with what I presently am convicted of.

I think an argument can be made that the sanctification of the Spirit leads unto obedience. The more sanctified we are the more obedient we are.

The word is used twice, both addressed here.

Peace,
Joe


thank you very much for your shared posts and info. I just learned about the Granville Sharp Rule recently, and i have indeed heard that it may be being used wrongfully by reformed thinkers in Acts. i have to study it more for myself, as i have seen some say it does apply to Acts 2 and others say it does not. I am not as literate in Greek grammar and rules and such, and i am always open to the fact that I could be wrong. But whenever there are two views i like to find out for myself. Much of what i posted was just copying and pasting studies that i have been looking at online and did not feel like re-writing. Thank you again for your post, very insightful, hopefully i will be more knowledgeable on this subject in the near future.

Walstib
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:03 AM
All good brother,

Here I thought you were a really fast typer :P

Just a friendly reminder to site your sources and honor those who have written it please. ;)

Peace,
Joe

Veretax
Jan 23rd 2009, 01:48 PM
yes, there is a general call to all: make disciples of all nations, but Romans 8 is clearly expressing an effectual call.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.(KJV)

all those in this verse were glorified.

If this verse was reffering to a general call, we must conclude that every human being will be saved. because those whom He called, THEM he also jsutified, and those whom he justified, THEM he also glorified. NO one who was foreknown was not glorified in this chain. the call goes out to all, but not all are effectually called. Those who are effectually called are those who were foreknown



Again I disagree, look at the context before that verse.


Ro 8:27-30 (NKJV)

27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:27-30 (NKJV)

Ro 8:27-30 (KJV)

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 8:27-30 (KJV)


In both the KJV and NKJV in verse 28, it says that we know that all things work together to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Now what is this calling? You say it is a Call to salvation, bu tthe order in verse 29 doesn't say that. It says those he foreknew he did predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many and that those he did determine/predestine would be conformed to that image THOSE he also called.

The problem with saying this is an effectual call unto salvation, is that if he predestined them, why mention the calling? It seems rather redundant if that is what this passage means. no, the calling came after he foreknew, and after he predestined that those he foreknew (foreknew what, but to become saints and joint heirs with Christ) those are who he predestined to be made like christ, and then he called them, and THEN he justified and then he glorified, in that order.

I believe the order of the verse is important. God knew beforehand. What did he know? In general we know he knows all, but if that's what it meant, then that would mean he predestined all he foreknew to be saved which would mean universalism, that all are destined to be saved. The bible clearly refutes that in other passages, so when Paul says that those God knew ahead of time, clearly he is referring to their calling to salvation, those who would come. He then tells us the mystery, that God predestined THEM that he foreknew would come, would be conformed to the image of Christ. Then he adds these the same people who already answered the call in God's knowledge, had already accepted Christ, these he also Called. (he called them again, even knowing they had been foreknown as coming to salvation? No, this must be a different calling.)

So you are right this calling is not a General Call, it is a call to them who he Forknew and had already predestined them to be conformed unto the image of Christ. The general Calling is throughout scripture and is mentioned at the beginning of Romans:


Ro 1:18-32 (NKJV)


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 1:18-32 (NKJV)

Thus, Paul in Romans makes it clear that all of Creation knows God. They've exchanged truth for a lie, they've been darkened and are without excuse. Thus all know of God, yet they choose to reject him. We know from the general epistles that God does not desire any to perish, but that all would come to repentance. Clearly the Salvation Call is to all. The problem is man in his sin, pride, and blinded eyes chooses to reject him.

But this call to salvation indeed is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 8. This calling comes after they were in the body of Christ, after God Foreknew they would come, and chose and determined (predestined) them to be conformed unto Christ's image, THESE he also called. called for what?

Rom 8:28 (NKJV)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

We who are in Christ are called according to His purpose. That purpose should not be confused with the Salvation Call. God calls us for a specific reason, for service, good works, and ministry. All Christians without fail receive some additional calling to serve. We are saved for a purpose. Even Paul had an additional Calling after he was saved a Call to Service:


Ro 1:1-6 (NKJV)

Greeting

1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Romans 1:1-6 (NKJV)

We are also called to be sons and joint heirs with Christ. (Appointed as part of God's family)

Eph 1:13-14 (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NKJV)

We trusted in him, and believed in the gospel, and at that moment are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, the guarantee of our inheritance until redeemed.


You see you are starting at the end of the chain of the phrase and working backwards in trying to prove your point, when the events happened in the order they are written. Be not confused on this point.

God sent a general call to Salvation

God Foreknew some would respond to the call (thus making it effectual to salvation for those who responded)

God then Predestined/Determined/Chose that those he foreknew would come would be conformed unto the image of Christ. We shall be made like him.

God then Called those who were Foreknown and predestined to this conformity with Christ to walk in the Way, to Service, Ministry, Good Works, etc.

God then took those he Foreknew, Predetermined to be Conformed to the image of Christ, and called to service to be justified.

God then Took all that he foreknew, predetermined to be conformed to Christ, called to service, proclaimed justified, to them he also glorified as he did for Christ.


See each one builds on the previous. To go in the reverse does not seem like the correct way to critically interpret the verse.




i was doing some studying on the word foreknowledge in the greek as compared to its other uses in the Bible. It does indeed connotate appointment or foreordination:

Foreknowledge was determinative and not merely predictive in the coming of Christ.


Acts 2:23, "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, ...."



Here, "determined purpose" and "foreknowledge" are linked by a greek grammatical form called the Granville-Sharp Rule. This makes the two nouns synonymous for emphasis, like saying "right and good" or "evil and wrong." The word "determined" here is formed of the same verb from which "predestination" is derived.



Peter declares the coming of Christ was both arranged and appointed by God.

I Peter 1:20, "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world..."



The word "foreordained" here is PROGINOSKO - "foreknow". Note that in the case of Christ that God's foreknowledge was more than merely predictive. It would be absurd to say that the Father merely "foreknew" the coming of Christ. Jesus was appointed to the office of Christ. All circumstances relating to His coming were arranged in advance. History was made for Him, not He for history.



Acts 4:27-28 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

The same principles apply to the election of the believer. A favorite text of opponents to Election is I Peter 1:2.



"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....." (verse 2).

"Foreknowledge" in verse 3 and "foreordained" in verse 20 are the same word, and mean the same thing. In verse 20, it refers to Jesus himself in his appointment as redeemer. In verse 2 it also refers to an appointment, in this case of believers appointed to obedience.

Notice he says for obedience, not because of obedience. Peter wishes all to understand that God has appointed the elect for obedience just as he appointed Jesus as redeemer. Any other interpretation fails to explain the usage of the same word in the same context, and would create an absurdity with regard to Christ.






even foreknowledge cross-refrenced in the Bible does not only simply mean to know future events, especially when pertaining to the foreknowledge of God




God knows many things. He knows all things, so it is important to know WHICH things in his Foreknowledge he is talking about. Clearly he is talking about those who wuold believe, clearly he is talking about those he knew would take that step of faith. Clearly he is talking about those who would claim Christ. That is the bit of Foreknowledge he mentions, and he then takes that foreknowledge, of knowing who would respond and then determines to do something to those he thus knew were coming. That being to be conformed unto Christ. So he does this, and these he also Calls. Why would this be the salvation Call if he already foreknew their response to the Salvation Call, and even determined to conform them to Christ. That makes no sense in the sequence of events being listed. This has to be an additional call.

Veretax
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:23 PM
Please provide Scripture that says grace is merely a general provisional thing opening the possibilty of faith and not the actual power of God acting and causing us to be born again. As Jesus said, ALL who the Father GIves ME WILL Come to me. And I will raise him up on the last day.



I did in my earlier post:

In Genesis, God promised that through the Seed of man he would crush sin (that was Christ), but even more:


Ro 2:12-13 (NKJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Romans 2:12-13 (NKJV)

Paul says that those who do the law will be justified. All perish without the law, ignorance is no excuse. Then in Chapter 3 he says this:



Ro 3:19-20 (NKJV)

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:19-20 (NKJV)

All the world is guilty before God. By the deeds of the law, no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Is paul contradicting himself? No, he is saying that if we kept the law we would be justified. The sinful human condition though makes it clear that we are incapable of keeping the law on our own. This is not the flaw of the law. The law was given so that sin would be made known. The Flaw is in us. Paul then continues and explains:

Ro 3:21-26 (NKJV)


21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:21-26 (NKJV)



The righteousness of God apart from the Law is belief in Jesus Christ, it is to and on all who believe. There is no difference among men because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We who are believers are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus as the propitiation by his Blood.

Thus only those who have faith in Jesus will be justified. This is the main theme of Romans. Paul then goes onto explain that even in the OT time, the Patriarchs, King David this promise was ALWAYS granted by faith. Thus proving his point that through the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Justification is by faith alone.

Now where we disagree is whether God only gives certain people this saving faith, or if God gave all as part of being created in his image the ability to put their faith in Christ who then have a responsibility to respond in faith when they hear the call of the Gospel unto salvation.


In galatians, Paul repeats this theme:

Ga 2:15-16 (NKJV)

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 2:15-16 (NKJV)


Faith is what saves. Grace is the blood of the Christ shed on the Cross. Without Christ on the cross NO flesh would be justified. Christ's sacrifice on the Cross opened the way to Salvation, if we just believe. Listen to what else paul writes in Galatians:


Ga 3:21-25 (NKJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Galatians 3:21-25 (NKJV)

The law was designed to bring us to Christ, to show us the we in our sin our wholly incapable on our own of keeping it an thus becoming justified, and this is what was meant to lead us to the solution of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. We are justified by Faith!

In conclusion, God gave man free will in the Garden. he chose to Sin and eat the forbidden fruit. The consequence of sin was to have his offspring born into sin, this corruption which separates us from fellowship with God, keeps us from the purpose he had intended for us. Then the law came. It was given to show forth sin, but before the law, man lived by his own conscience and did whatever was right in his own eyes, and clearly, man's judgment was flawed because of the sin nature we are born with. Therefore as Paul wrote the law came that in its keeping we could be justified.

yet again, man proved incapable of keeping the law. Look at Israel. How many times in Judges? How many time in the Penatauch, did they break God's laws? I'm not even sure we can count all the things that happened, they are numerous. They continued to sin even after so many great wonders confirmed their faith and belief in God. Thus by the works of the law was no flesh truly justified. (Even Moses, sinned.) Thus the Seed had to come, that was Jesus christ, to live on this earth and to die upon the cross for our sins. Here is the grace, the unmerited favor of God given to all that believe. Therein is the promise that if you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and is the redeemer of our sins, then you shall be saved, sealed, predestined to be made like Christ. Called to his purpose for your life, where before we walked in our own ways, we have a new heart a new nature, are a new creature in Christ and are called to Service, and we who are called are brothers of Christ by adoption, and justified before God, and glorified just as Christ was glorified by the father. In this I have no doubt.

RogerW
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:26 PM
Again I disagree, look at the context before that verse.

Ro 8:27-30 (NKJV)

27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:27-30 (NKJV)

Ro 8:27-30 (KJV)

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 8:27-30 (KJV)

In both the KJV and NKJV in verse 28, it says that we know that all things work together to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Now what is this calling? You say it is a Call to salvation, bu tthe order in verse 29 doesn't say that. It says those he foreknew he did predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many and that those he did determine/predestine would be conformed to that image THOSE he also called.

The problem with saying this is an effectual call unto salvation, is that if he predestined them, why mention the calling? It seems rather redundant if that is what this passage means. no, the calling came after he foreknew, and after he predestined that those he foreknew (foreknew what, but to become saints and joint heirs with Christ) those are who he predestined to be made like christ, and then he called them, and THEN he justified and then he glorified, in that order.

I believe the order of the verse is important. God knew beforehand. What did he know? In general we know he knows all, but if that's what it meant, then that would mean he predestined all he foreknew to be saved which would mean universalism, that all are destined to be saved. The bible clearly refutes that in other passages, so when Paul says that those God knew ahead of time, clearly he is referring to their calling to salvation, those who would come. He then tells us the mystery, that God predestined THEM that he foreknew would come, would be conformed to the image of Christ. Then he adds these the same people who already answered the call in God's knowledge, had already accepted Christ, these he also Called. (he called them again, even knowing they had been foreknown as coming to salvation? No, this must be a different calling.)

So you are right this calling is not a General Call, it is a call to them who he Forknew and had already predestined them to be conformed unto the image of Christ. The general Calling is throughout scripture and is mentioned at the beginning of Romans:

Ro 1:18-32 (NKJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 1:18-32 (NKJV)

Thus, Paul in Romans makes it clear that all of Creation knows God. They've exchanged truth for a lie, they've been darkened and are without excuse. Thus all know of God, yet they choose to reject him. We know from the general epistles that God does not desire any to perish, but that all would come to repentance. Clearly the Salvation Call is to all. The problem is man in his sin, pride, and blinded eyes chooses to reject him.

But this call to salvation indeed is not what Paul is talking about in Romans 8. This calling comes after they were in the body of Christ, after God Foreknew they would come, and chose and determined (predestined) them to be conformed unto Christ's image, THESE he also called. called for what?

Rom 8:28 (NKJV)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

We who are in Christ are called according to His purpose. That purpose should not be confused with the Salvation Call. God calls us for a specific reason, for service, good works, and ministry. All Christians without fail receive some additional calling to serve. We are saved for a purpose. Even Paul had an additional Calling after he was saved a Call to Service:

Ro 1:1-6 (NKJV)

Greeting

1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Romans 1:1-6 (NKJV)

We are also called to be sons and joint heirs with Christ. (Appointed as part of God's family)

Eph 1:13-14 (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NKJV)

We trusted in him, and believed in the gospel, and at that moment are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, the guarantee of our inheritance until redeemed.

You see you are starting at the end of the chain of the phrase and working backwards in trying to prove your point, when the events happened in the order they are written. Be not confused on this point.

God sent a general call to Salvation

God Foreknew some would respond to the call (thus making it effectual to salvation for those who responded)

God then Predestined/Determined/Chose that those he foreknew would come would be conformed unto the image of Christ. We shall be made like him.

God then Called those who were Foreknown and predestined to this conformity with Christ to walk in the Way, to Service, Ministry, Good Works, etc.

God then took those he Foreknew, Predetermined to be Conformed to the image of Christ, and called to service to be justified.

God then Took all that he foreknew, predetermined to be conformed to Christ, called to service, proclaimed justified, to them he also glorified as he did for Christ.

See each one builds on the previous. To go in the reverse does not seem like the correct way to critically interpret the verse.

God knows many things. He knows all things, so it is important to know WHICH things in his Foreknowledge he is talking about. Clearly he is talking about those who wuold believe, clearly he is talking about those he knew would take that step of faith. Clearly he is talking about those who would claim Christ. That is the bit of Foreknowledge he mentions, and he then takes that foreknowledge, of knowing who would respond and then determines to do something to those he thus knew were coming. That being to be conformed unto Christ. So he does this, and these he also Calls. Why would this be the salvation Call if he already foreknew their response to the Salvation Call, and even determined to conform them to Christ. That makes no sense in the sequence of events being listed. This has to be an additional call.

Greetings Veretax,

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Taken from "Concerning the Divine Decrees" in The Works of Jonathan Edwards:

All elect men are said to be chosen in Christ. Election contains two things: foreknowledge and predestination, which are distinguished in Romans 8. The one is choosing persons to be God's, which is a foreknowing of them; and the other, a destining them to be conformed to the image of His Son, both in holiness and blessedness.

With respect to foreknowledge or foreknowing, we are chosen in Him as God chose us to be actually His in this way, be being in Christ, or being members of His Son. God chose Christ, and gave His elect people to Him; and so, looking on them as His, owned them for His own. But by predestination which is consequent on His foreknowledge, we are elect in Christ, as we are elect in His election. For God, having in foreknowledge given us to Christ, henceforward beheld us as members and parts of Him. So, ordaining the Head to glory, He therein ordained the members to glory. In destining Christ to eternal life, He destined all parts of Christ to it also. So that we are appointed to eternal life in Christ, being in Christ, His members from eternity. In His being appointed to life, we are appointed to life. So Christ's election is the foundatio of ours, as much as His justification and glorification are the foundation of ours. By election is sometimes meant this latter part, i.e., destination to conformity to Christ in life and glory. "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation" (2Th 2:13).

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:56 PM
Greetings Veretax,

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


RogerW,

IN that verse predestination is takling about adoption as Children by jesus Christ himself. What does it mean to be Holy? it means to be set apart. So one must ask what are we set apart from? Is it not from Sin, and from the World? How is this accomplished? By Grace through Faith..


Eph 1:3-14 (NKJV)

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:3-14 (NKJV)


Also note that it says in Him you also Trusted (when?) after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having believed, (THEN!) we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the guarantee of our inheritance.

how can we be held blameless? As I've stated in the post:


Ro 8:27-30 (NKJV)

27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:27-30 (NKJV)

How are we held blameless before God? We who know sin have to be made to know no sin. THUS why he predestined to conform us to the image of Christ. Since Christ knew no sin, we are being made like him, and thus will be seen as blameless and then justified. Then he predestines that since we are made like Christ that we should be adopted.

I respect Jonathan Edwards, but again who is the We? Something had to happen to make us Christ's to begin with. I say that it is by faith, through grace as seen here in the Eph 1:13,14

Eph 1:13-14 (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

That's what puts us in the body of Christ, and makes us His. It is by faith/belief.

HankZ
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:39 PM
RogerW,

IN that verse predestination is takling about adoption as Children by jesus Christ himself. What does it mean to be Holy? it means to be set apart. So one must ask what are we set apart from? Is it not from Sin, and from the World? How is this accomplished? By Grace through Faith..


Eph 1:3-14 (NKJV)

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:3-14 (NKJV)


Also note that it says in Him you also Trusted (when?) after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having believed, (THEN!) we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the guarantee of our inheritance.

how can we be held blameless? As I've stated in the post:


Ro 8:27-30 (NKJV)

27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:27-30 (NKJV)

How are we held blameless before God? We who know sin have to be made to know no sin. THUS why he predestined to conform us to the image of Christ. Since Christ knew no sin, we are being made like him, and thus will be seen as blameless and then justified. Then he predestines that since we are made like Christ that we should be adopted.

I respect Jonathan Edwards, but again who is the We? Something had to happen to make us Christ's to begin with. I say that it is by faith, through grace as seen here in the Eph 1:13,14

Eph 1:13-14 (NKJV)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

That's what puts us in the body of Christ, and makes us His. It is by faith/belief.

Acts 13:48 (New American Standard Bible)


48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


They were first appointed(predestined, elected, chosen) to eternal life before they are able to believe. Salvation is a gift, not a reward.

I think the NLT captures the authors point better;
Acts 13:48 (New Living Translation)


48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

(Do I need to reference biblegateway.com as where I copy and paste the scripture from or is it enough to give the verse?)

Butch5
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:02 PM
Acts 13:48 (New American Standard Bible)


48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


They were first appointed(predestined, elected, chosen) to eternal life before they are able to believe. Salvation is a gift, not a reward.

I think the NLT captures the authors point better;
Acts 13:48 (New Living Translation)


48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

(Do I need to reference biblegateway.com as where I copy and paste the scripture from or is it enough to give the verse?)

However that interpretation does not fit with the context of the passage. Not to mention that that interpretation is not required by the text.

drew
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:06 PM
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
I believe that the scope of those "chosen" is limited to a very select group of saints - Paul is not asserting a general principle here at all. The argument for this, while convincing, is long and I will not provide it at present.

Veretax
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:09 PM
Acts 13:48 (New American Standard Bible)


48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


They were first appointed(predestined, elected, chosen) to eternal life before they are able to believe. Salvation is a gift, not a reward.

I think the NLT captures the authors point better;
Acts 13:48 (New Living Translation)


48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

(Do I need to reference biblegateway.com as where I copy and paste the scripture from or is it enough to give the verse?)

That is a different passage of scripture frankly, and I am not debating the meaning of the words there, I'm debating the interpretation of Romans 8. However, since you want to argue words. The word used is tasso


Strong's Greek #5021
5021tasso { tas’-so}

a prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); TDNT - 8:27, 1156; v

AV - appoint 3, ordain 2, set 1, determine 1, addict 1; 8

GK - 5435 { τάσσω }

1) to put in order, to station

1a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint

1a1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one

1b) to appoint, ordain, order

1b1) to appoint on one’s own responsibility or authority

1b2) to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

For synonyms see entries 1781, entellomai; 2753, keleuo; and 3853, paragello.

See entry 5844 for comparison of synonyms.
Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Tense/Voice/Mood #5772



The word is used only 8 times in the New testament. 8 Times? Wow, hinging your belief that God Predestines who is going to be saved on a word only used 8 times. Forgive me for sounding a little Cynical, but if such a principle is so important, you' think it would appear in at least half of the main epistles.

In Matthew: Used to describe the place where Jesus had told them to meet him after the Crucifixion.

Mt 28:16 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+28:16&version=kjv&showtools=yes) Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

In Luke: The Roman Centurion describes himself as one who has been appointed or placed under authority.

Lu 7:8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+7:8&version=kjv&showtools=yes) For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

The word is used 4 times in Acts, and in each time they are used in different Contexts:

in 13:48 Describes the scene after paul had spoken to the Jews in the Synogogue and some Gentiles desired to hear what Paul had to say, so that when the Jews saw the multitude that yearned to hear, they opposed paul, ignoring his warning contradicted and blasphemed what Paul said. This is where Paul and Barnabas say it was necessary that they hear first. Look at the Context:

Ac 13:44-52 (NKJV)

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,

That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 13:44-52 (NKJV)


Up till that time, the primary audience for the Gospel message had been to the Jews who were already God's chosen people. That the idea of being chosen or appointed to be saved here is not surprising given that before that time there was not much written concerning the gentiles being granted salvation. So in this one place in acts is it used in a fashion where God ordained it. And note, My beliefs do not remove the possibility that God may specifically choose some to particular ends even salvation, but Just because this word is used here does not mean it is true of all and thus totally wrought by God alone.

The other 3 places:
in 15:2 Describes how the church at Antioch desired to send men to the apostles concerning the conflict over the custom of circumcision. They being the people in the church of Antioch determined to send Paul and Baranabas and a few others.
in 22:10 Used in Pauls testimony to describe how he was appointed/called/set to become an apostle and witness for Christ

in 28:23 Speaking of a time set by Jews in Rome when they determined to meet paul and hear what he had to say.

Ac 13:48 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+13:48&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ac 15:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+15:2&version=kjv&showtools=yes) When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Ac 22:10 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+22:10&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

Ac 28:23 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+28:23&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Once in Romans: It is used to describe the civil governance that we live under.

Ro 13:1 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+13:1&version=kjv&showtools=yes) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.


Once in 1 Corinthians (the NKJV used the word devoted, having the idea that they chose themselves for this.)

1Co 16:15 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1co+16:15&version=kjv&showtools=yes) I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Given that Acts is more a historical than book of doctrine, and the word is only used twice in pauls epistles, you can understand why I'd be very skeptical about taking one word used in acts and making a doctrine out of it. While the world always means put in place, it is not always used to describe a means of God doing it. therefore I'd be careful about taking one verse out of context, an dsaying because this word is used here, and is similar to the one in Romans that it must mean Y. that is not what I'd call an Exegetical interpretation.

(And you are fine, I have an online bible program with I think 9 different translations in them, so I often compare them when i see versions I'm not familiar with.)

Butch5
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:10 PM
I believe that the scope of those "chosen" is limited to a very select group of saints - Paul is not asserting a general principle here at all. The argument for this, while convincing, is long and I will not provide it at present.

You are correct, here Paul is referring to himself and most likely the rest of the aposltles.

drew
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:15 PM
9 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
While this text does address questions of God's fairness, it does so in a context entirely distinct from any question of the election of individuals.

Paul here is making an argument about Israel and the question of whether it is fair for God to have elected her to be the place where the sin of the world is collected and concentrated, prior to being transferred to her representative Messiah for condemnation on the Cross. And in so doing, salvation becomes available to the Gentiles.

The only reason this text ever gets used to support the notion of "pre-destination of individuals" is because people do not notice the broader argument of which this text is part.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:20 PM
The whole issues of predestination becomes quite interesting when you consider that God is not subject to time. He created time just like He created gravity - so it logically follows that He is not subject to either. With that in mind, try to wrap your mind around God predestining somebody while God stands outside of time altogether and sees the beginning from the end.

reformedct
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:58 PM
The whole issues of predestination becomes quite interesting when you consider that God is not subject to time. He created time just like He created gravity - so it logically follows that He is not subject to either. With that in mind, try to wrap your mind around God predestining somebody while God stands outside of time altogether and sees the beginning from the end.

yes, thats why it can be so mind-boggling! lol

i am soooooo tired of the issue though that i would like to know exactly which way it is! it changes how we view God. If God has chosen me just because He wanted to and not because of forseen faith but actually choosing me, that is very humbling and causes me to view God a certain way. If God chose me, BECAUSE i chose Him, that would mean that God didnt really choose me. i chose Him. If a woman comes up to you and says, i would like to date you(before you ask) compared to me asking the girl to date me, and then she says yes in response to me, there is a difference.

one thing we know that is for sure: either God chose us based on His own sovreign choice and not dependant on anything or action from anyone, or He chose us because of something He saw we were going to do.

We also know that one view is right, and the other is indeed wrong.

i just wish the Bible would be clear on this issue. no disrespect to God, but we see how unclear it seems to be because we still have a large number who hold to a calvinist view and a large number who cling to the more arminian view.

i admit i dont know enough and havent studied enough to be 100% sure on this issue. I pray that God will reveal His truth to me, because this seriously affects my entire view of the Christian life. I dont think this is one of those issues that we non-chalantly disagree on (such as speaking in tounges), it seems that this is indeed a foundational truth that should be understood. I pray God reveals to us all the truth

God Bless!

HankZ
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:00 PM
However that interpretation does not fit with the context of the passage. Not to mention that that interpretation is not required by the text.

The NAS is about the closest English translation we have from the original text as far as word for word translation. The NLT is about the closest we have to the original thought for thought of the writers of the original text.

What do you mean by it doesn't fit and it is not required? The context of the passage is that those who were given eternal life believed. How does that not fit? :hmm:

HankZ
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:14 PM
Given that Acts is more a historical than book of doctrine, and the word is only used twice in pauls epistles, you can understand why I'd be very skeptical about taking one word used in acts and making a doctrine out of it. While the world always means put in place, it is not always used to describe a means of God doing it. therefore I'd be careful about taking one verse out of context, an dsaying because this word is used here, and is similar to the one in Romans that it must mean Y. that is not what I'd call an Exegetical interpretation.



Could you boil this down?

I am wondering who else but God, could appoint, elect, predestine, call, ordain, or in any other way give eternal life?

Veretax
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:31 PM
yes, thats why it can be so mind-boggling! lol

i am soooooo tired of the issue though that i would like to know exactly which way it is! it changes how we view God. If God has chosen me just because He wanted to and not because of forseen faith but actually choosing me, that is very humbling and causes me to view God a certain way. If God chose me, BECAUSE i chose Him, that would mean that God didnt really choose me. i chose Him. If a woman comes up to you and says, i would like to date you(before you ask) compared to me asking the girl to date me, and then she says yes in response to me, there is a difference.

one thing we know that is for sure: either God chose us based on His own sovreign choice and not dependant on anything or action from anyone, or He chose us because of something He saw we were going to do.

We also know that one view is right, and the other is indeed wrong.

i just wish the Bible would be clear on this issue. no disrespect to God, but we see how unclear it seems to be because we still have a large number who hold to a calvinist view and a large number who cling to the more arminian view.

i admit i dont know enough and havent studied enough to be 100% sure on this issue. I pray that God will reveal His truth to me, because this seriously affects my entire view of the Christian life. I dont think this is one of those issues that we non-chalantly disagree on (such as speaking in tounges), it seems that this is indeed a foundational truth that should be understood. I pray God reveals to us all the truth

God Bless!

Funny I don't look at it as God choosing me because I choose him. I look at it like a Draft. Everyone who is eligible is declared, and many get picked, but not everyone get's appointed to the Position of Quarterback, or Linebacker for that matter.

Consider this:

Ga 3:26-4:7 (NKJV)

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

4 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Galatians 3:26-4:7 (NKJV)



Also:

Jn 1:12-13 (NKJV)

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:12-13 (NKJV)


Jn 1:12-13 (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13 (KJV)


Could you boil this down?

I am wondering who else but God, could appoint, elect, predestine, call, ordain, or in any other way give eternal life?


I think you missed my point, in the places where that word was used, only in a couple was Christ or God mentioned as the one who did, and not in all cases was it in reference to eternal life. that is the point I am making. Only in Acts 13:47/8? do you see it used in that context.

I am going to guess that you skimmed what I wrote instead of reading it for content, cause I did explain the context behind all 8 instances of the word being used in the NT.

John146
Jan 23rd 2009, 10:15 PM
yes. IF the wicked turn from their wicked way. The question is, WILL he aprt from God?

Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

just because God desires that the wicked turn does not mean they will, as seen with pharoah

yes, IF the wicked turn they will be blessed. Problem is, unless God opens their hearts to take heed to His word, they will continue with a heart of stone.

Jeremiah 32:
39I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.

no one seeks God
there is no fear before their eyes

yes, God chooses to reveal spiritual truths to whomever He wants. He shares His truth with everyone, but people supress the truth they have or they are just blinded by Satan and cannot see. It is God who determines to breakthrough the rebellion and blindness, as he did with Pauls conversion

Matthew 17

The Purpose of the Parables

10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.


13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’


its not that God does not share the truth to all, its that Satan has blinded their minds and they cannot accept spiritual truth unless God grants them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.


2 Timothy 2:25-26 - if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.


2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled... to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


God desires all men to be saved. But no one chooses Him. SO He, in His mercy, causes some to born again, by His grace.

God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+1#f3) might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Corinthians+1#f4) you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

The whole point of God choosing us is so that we will boast in Him and not hold onto one drop of "self-wrought" faith.

This does not mean that people who want to be saved wont be able to get in because they are not chosen by God. All who thirst for Christ are the chosen. those who arent chosen are the ones that God allows to willfully deny Him all their life

grace is not just an open possibility. God ACTIVELY chooses to open hearts whenever He pleases so that they WILL fear Him and so they WILL NOT turn from Him



Psalm 10:4 - The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, "There is no God."
John 3:20 - "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

i think Scripture is pretty clear that no one comes to God out of their own depraved minds and hearts and willsYou didn't really address Ezekiel 18 specifically at all and instead went on a tangent. I'm okay with using other scripture to make a point because I do that all the time. But I asked you to specifically comment on Ezekiel 18 and you didn't do it. We see from that passage I quoted that God doesn't want the wicked to die in their wickedness but rather wants them to turn from their ways before they die. Your doctrine says that God chooses not to give them repentance and faith (a false concept, IMO) or not to give them the ability to choose to repent and believe. If that was the case then how can it be that He truly desires for them to repent and believe? That makes no sense.

If He truly desires for them to repent then it must be that they have the ability to repent. He wouldn't desire for something to happen and at the same time make it so that it couldn't happen. That would be contradictory and just makes no sense at all.

Owen
Jan 23rd 2009, 11:13 PM
Is election/foreknowledge/predestination based on forseen faith?

if so, please use Scripture to support

if not, please use Scripture to support

There is no passage in the Bible that states election is based on foreseen faith. The passages that might be used to support that are better interpreted in a different way. Of course, I can not use Scripture to support a negative.

For a turn around question (and not necessarily directed towards you), did the election of individuals happen from the beginning of time? For those who would like to respond, I am looking for some passage that displays three characteristics:
1) Uses the term of election or some synonym of it
2) The text states that this election happen as an eternal decree
3) That this election is used in reference to particular individuals

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 04:42 PM
There is no passage in the Bible that states election is based on foreseen faith. The passages that might be used to support that are better interpreted in a different way. Of course, I can not use Scripture to support a negative.

For a turn around question (and not necessarily directed towards you), did the election of individuals happen from the beginning of time? For those who would like to respond, I am looking for some passage that displays three characteristics:
1) Uses the term of election or some synonym of it
2) The text states that this election happen as an eternal decree
3) That this election is used in reference to particular individuals

Mark 13:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=2&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
[ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Philippians 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

These three verses tell me that the ones chosen by God are the elect. They will be saved through the sanctifying work of the spirit (I believe in trinity) and the spirit works in those he chose to will and act.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2009, 07:16 PM
yes, thats why it can be so mind-boggling! lol

i am soooooo tired of the issue though that i would like to know exactly which way it is! it changes how we view God. If God has chosen me just because He wanted to and not because of forseen faith but actually choosing me, that is very humbling and causes me to view God a certain way. If God chose me, BECAUSE i chose Him, that would mean that God didnt really choose me. i chose Him. If a woman comes up to you and says, i would like to date you(before you ask) compared to me asking the girl to date me, and then she says yes in response to me, there is a difference.

one thing we know that is for sure: either God chose us based on His own sovreign choice and not dependant on anything or action from anyone, or He chose us because of something He saw we were going to do.

We also know that one view is right, and the other is indeed wrong.

i just wish the Bible would be clear on this issue. no disrespect to God, but we see how unclear it seems to be because we still have a large number who hold to a calvinist view and a large number who cling to the more arminian view.

i admit i dont know enough and havent studied enough to be 100% sure on this issue. I pray that God will reveal His truth to me, because this seriously affects my entire view of the Christian life. I dont think this is one of those issues that we non-chalantly disagree on (such as speaking in tounges), it seems that this is indeed a foundational truth that should be understood. I pray God reveals to us all the truth

God Bless!

Reformed,

The Bible is clear on the issue, it is men who have made the mess. Look through the Bible and find Scripture that says anyone was chosen before the foundation of the world. Then look at the context they are in, it will resolve the question.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2009, 07:37 PM
The NAS is about the closest English translation we have from the original text as far as word for word translation. The NLT is about the closest we have to the original thought for thought of the writers of the original text.

What do you mean by it doesn't fit and it is not required? The context of the passage is that those who were given eternal life believed. How does that not fit? :hmm:

The Greek word for ordained in verse 48, does not have to be translated ordained, it can just as easily be translated disposed.

Now, the reason I say that that interpretation does not fit the context is this. The Greek word "tasso", is in the middle voice, in verse 48. The middle voice indicates that the action being performed, is being done to the person by themselves. This also fits the context of the rest of the passage, Luke is recording what Paul has said to the Jews,

Acts 13:44-48 ( KJV ) 44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Notice what Luke writes here, it was the Jews who judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. This also is the middle voice and puts the passage in the same. Surly we do not have two different ways of salvation, the Jews determining for themselves whether or not they would be saved, and then the gentiles having no choice in the matter. If we translate the Greek word "tasso," as disposed, then the verse reads "as many as were disposed to eternal life", and belieiving Paul's message would dispose them to eternal life, thus they have believed of themselves, which is the middle voice. It fits perfectly with the grammar and the context.

To say they were ordained by God, without any input of thier own, one has to force this on the passage and the grammar.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2009, 07:46 PM
Mark 13:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=2&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
[ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Philippians 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

These three verses tell me that the ones chosen by God are the elect. They will be saved through the sanctifying work of the spirit (I believe in trinity) and the spirit works in those he chose to will and act.

All three of these verses can be read the other way so they do not support the idea of unconditional election

Mark 13, could easily be read to say that God chose the elect.

2 Thessalonians, chose them from the beginning of what? Of time? of when they Believed?

Philippians, God could easily work in those who chose Him.

HankZ
Jan 24th 2009, 08:42 PM
The Greek word for ordained in verse 48, does not have to be translated ordained, it can just as easily be translated disposed.

Now, the reason I say that that interpretation does not fit the context is this. The Greek word "tasso", is in the middle voice, in verse 48. The middle voice indicates that the action being performed, is being done to the person by themselves. This also fits the context of the rest of the passage, Luke is recording what Paul has said to the Jews,

Acts 13:44-48 ( KJV ) 44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Notice what Luke writes here, it was the Jews who judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. This also is the middle voice and puts the passage in the same. Surly we do not have two different ways of salvation, the Jews determining for themselves whether or not they would be saved, and then the gentiles having no choice in the matter. If we translate the Greek word "tasso," as disposed, then the verse reads "as many as were disposed to eternal life", and belieiving Paul's message would dispose them to eternal life, thus they have believed of themselves, which is the middle voice. It fits perfectly with the grammar and the context.

To say they were ordained by God, without any input of thier own, one has to force this on the passage and the grammar.


This is way too deep for me. I have several English translations and use them interchangibly to understand some passages better, but no matter how scripture is sliced and diced, God alone saves.

HankZ
Jan 24th 2009, 09:00 PM
I think you missed my point, in the places where that word was used, only in a couple was Christ or God mentioned as the one who did, and not in all cases was it in reference to eternal life. that is the point I am making. Only in Acts 13:47/8? do you see it used in that context.

I am going to guess that you skimmed what I wrote instead of reading it for content, cause I did explain the context behind all 8 instances of the word being used in the NT.

I can only speak and read English(I'm trying to learn Hmung :)). It's great that you are able to understand other languages however, that does not make your arguement any more credible. You are pulling words out of a different culture, time and language and trying to fit it into your own idea of what the author means for this culture, time and language. The bible has been translated for us in several versions of the English language and all of them are correct. There may be some passages which you want to use more than one version to get the full meaning, but they are not wrong as you seem to be portraying.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2009, 10:41 PM
This is way too deep for me. I have several English translations and use them interchangibly to understand some passages better, but no matter how scripture is sliced and diced, God alone saves.

Even if we take just the English translations, you still have the same problem, Paul said to the Jews, you judged yourselves unworthy of eternal life. If we interpret the passage as you suggest, then we are left with the Jews themselves choosing whether or not they will be saved, yet the gentiles not have a choice, either way you have to different modes of salvation.

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 11:00 PM
Mark 13, could easily be read to say that God chose the elect.

He sure did.


2 Thessalonians, chose them from the beginning of what? Of time? of when they Believed?

I don't know, I guess we'd have to look at where else the Bible refers to the beginning?

You start in Revelation, I'll start in Genesis and we'll see who finds the beginning first. ;)


Philippians, God could easily work in those who chose Him.

OK. I want you to be very careful on how you answer this, for if you answer this question wrongly, then your whole free will thing falls flat on its face.

Who does God work in to will and act according to His good purpose?

Butch5
Jan 24th 2009, 11:17 PM
He sure did.



I don't know, I guess we'd have to look at where else the Bible refers to the beginning?

You start in Revelation, I'll start in Genesis and we'll see who finds the beginning first. ;)



OK. I want you to be very careful on how you answer this, for if you answer this question wrongly, then your whole free will thing falls flat on its face.

Who does God work in to will and act according to His good purpose?

No worries for free will, the answer is believers.

Veretax
Jan 25th 2009, 02:25 AM
I can only speak and read English(I'm trying to learn Hmung :)). It's great that you are able to understand other languages however, that does not make your arguement any more credible. You are pulling words out of a different culture, time and language and trying to fit it into your own idea of what the author means for this culture, time and language. The bible has been translated for us in several versions of the English language and all of them are correct. There may be some passages which you want to use more than one version to get the full meaning, but they are not wrong as you seem to be portraying.


I am shocked here. I don't recall saying anything that requires knowing other languages, and as far as greek goes, I'm only just starting to learn it. What I was saying is if you look at strongs concordance (which gives you the underlying greek or hebrew for a word it can give a better idea of how the word was used back then) (and I'm assuming you know what that is, if not then maybe we can explain that better), to find the greek word used in that passage, you can then find EVERY place in the New Testament where that exact word is used. I find this useful, because knowing how other books in the bible use it can help give a better picture for how it is used without having a full understanding of greek.


Now having said that. In my post i listed all 8 verses where that particular greek word appears. I then added a summary of the context around it, which you are more than welcome to look at for yourself. Only in that one passage in acts 13 is it used in reference to being "appointed" unto eternal life. And as Butch I believe said, the voice of that word indicates that it is themselves that did it.

If you want to ignore the resources I've used to help understand the meaning or usage of words, that's your choice, but I am only sharing this so as to help give understanding to what the passage is saying.




The bible has been translated for us in several versions of the English language and all of them are correct. There may be some passages which you want to use more than one version to get the full meaning, but they are not wrong as you seem to be portraying.

I disagree on this actually. I do not believe that ALL English versions are correct, there are many differences. Some are not even that great when you look at them from a english crticism. As for me? I primarily use the New King James, and the old KJV. I do have access to other versions, but I rarely go to them because those two have proven so reliable to me that I do not seek an additional translation.

As for your inference that I am picking them from this version or that? Now, I posted two different versions of a couple of passages just to show the difference, , I did not do it for the reasons you seem to think I did.


Ultimately every man is going to have to find for himself what he believes is true in this area.

HankZ
Jan 25th 2009, 09:08 PM
Even if we take just the English translations, you still have the same problem, Paul said to the Jews, you judged yourselves unworthy of eternal life. If we interpret the passage as you suggest, then we are left with the Jews themselves choosing whether or not they will be saved, yet the gentiles not have a choice, either way you have to different modes of salvation.

It is true that ALL(not limited to the Jews) have condemed themselves. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I don't follow what your arguement is.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 01:49 AM
I am shocked here. I don't recall saying anything that requires knowing other languages, and as far as greek goes, I'm only just starting to learn it. What I was saying is if you look at strongs concordance (which gives you the underlying greek or hebrew for a word it can give a better idea of how the word was used back then) (and I'm assuming you know what that is, if not then maybe we can explain that better), to find the greek word used in that passage, you can then find EVERY place in the New Testament where that exact word is used. I find this useful, because knowing how other books in the bible use it can help give a better picture for how it is used without having a full understanding of greek.


Now having said that. In my post i listed all 8 verses where that particular greek word appears. I then added a summary of the context around it, which you are more than welcome to look at for yourself. Only in that one passage in acts 13 is it used in reference to being "appointed" unto eternal life. And as Butch I believe said, the voice of that word indicates that it is themselves that did it.

If you want to ignore the resources I've used to help understand the meaning or usage of words, that's your choice, but I am only sharing this so as to help give understanding to what the passage is saying.





I disagree on this actually. I do not believe that ALL English versions are correct, there are many differences. Some are not even that great when you look at them from a english crticism. As for me? I primarily use the New King James, and the old KJV. I do have access to other versions, but I rarely go to them because those two have proven so reliable to me that I do not seek an additional translation.

As for your inference that I am picking them from this version or that? Now, I posted two different versions of a couple of passages just to show the difference, , I did not do it for the reasons you seem to think I did.


Ultimately every man is going to have to find for himself what he believes is true in this area.

I will not argue the trustworthyness of God's word with you.

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 02:00 AM
It is true that ALL(not limited to the Jews) have condemed themselves. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I don't follow what your arguement is.

Paul did not say they condemned themselves, he said they judged themselves unworthy. Paul says, he is taking eternal life and turnig away from them, to the gentiles.

The Parson
Jan 26th 2009, 02:31 AM
The thread is really starting to make a circular turn I believe. Why not make your summations and then lets move on to another subject.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 03:23 AM
Even if we take just the English translations, you still have the same problem, Paul said to the Jews, you judged yourselves unworthy of eternal life. If we interpret the passage as you suggest, then we are left with the Jews themselves choosing whether or not they will be saved, yet the gentiles not have a choice, either way you have to different modes of salvation.

If you would be so kind, please explain what you are saying in this post.

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 05:52 AM
If you would be so kind, please explain what you are saying in this post.

Sure in verse 46, Paul is basically saying to the Jews, you have rejected the word of God and determined yourselves unworthy of eternal life. So, the Jews have themselves decided that they would not be saved. If the Jews can determine whether or not hey will be saved, why would it be different for the gentiles? If ordained in verse 48 means they were predestined, then you have the Jews choosing whether or not the want to be saved, but the gentiles have no choice. Does God save the Jews one way and the gentiles another?

Veretax
Jan 26th 2009, 12:25 PM
I will not argue the trustworthyness of God's word with you.


I am not arguing the trustworthiness of God's word. I'm arguing the trustworthiness of many "Modern" translations, which I perceive as being of Men. Just this past Sunday our pastor began putting quotes from different translations, and I check them against the NKJV and KJV I have in the pew and some of the translations, I don't even know how they got it without forcing a "modern context" upon them. That is something I have a problem with. You can disagree with me on this if you want, but the issue is not about God's word imo.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 02:19 PM
Sure in verse 46, Paul is basically saying to the Jews, you have rejected the word of God and determined yourselves unworthy of eternal life. So, the Jews have themselves decided that they would not be saved. If the Jews can determine whether or not hey will be saved, why would it be different for the gentiles? If ordained in verse 48 means they were predestined, then you have the Jews choosing whether or not the want to be saved, but the gentiles have no choice. Does God save the Jews one way and the gentiles another?

This is what you stated previously. I am looking for where you find that because they judged themselves, that they also have the ability to unjudge themselves. In other words, just because one chooses to rebel against God and by doing so condemns himself to hell, it seems you are also saying that he can then choose to force God into giving him eternal life because he changed his mind?

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 09:30 PM
This is what you stated previously. I am looking for where you find that because they judged themselves, that they also have the ability to unjudge themselves. In other words, just because one chooses to rebel against God and by doing so condemns himself to hell, it seems you are also saying that he can then choose to force God into giving him eternal life because he changed his mind?

You said,


Originally Posted by HankZ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1956009#post1956009) Acts 13:48 (New American Standard Bible)


48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


They were first appointed(predestined, elected, chosen) to eternal life before they are able to believe. Salvation is a gift, not a reward.

I think the NLT captures the authors point better;
Acts 13:48 (New Living Translation)


48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

(Do I need to reference biblegateway.com as where I copy and paste the scripture from or is it enough to give the verse?)


and I said that that interpretation is not required, nor does it fit the context of the passage. Paul has brought eternal life, through the gospel, he has preached it and the Jews rejected it. They did so of their own accord, Paul tells them that because they have rejected to gospel, they have judged themselves unworthy of eternal. They had a chance to receive eternal life but have rejected it. You claimed that in verse 48 they were first elected and then believed, this is unconditional election. I showed you how this interpretation is not required by the text and does not fit the context with which Luke records these events. Referring back to verse 46, Paul makes it clear that the reason the Jews do not have eternal life is because they have rejected the word of God, not because they were not chosen or elected. The reason they don't have eternal life is because of something the did, rejecting the word of God. You are claiming that the gentiles were chosen before they believed, indicating that they had nothing to do with the their being chosen. My question is, given your understanding of verse 48, Why would God give the Jews a choice in salvation and not give the gentiles a choice?

When you understand verse 48 being in the middle voice you do not have this problem.

RogerW
Jan 26th 2009, 09:41 PM
You said,
and I said that that interpretation is not required, nor does it fit the context of the passage. Paul has brought eternal life, through the gospel, he has preached it and the Jews rejected it. They did so of their own accord, Paul tells them that because they have rejected to gospel, they have judged themselves unworthy of eternal. They had a chance to receive eternal life but have rejected it. You claimed that in verse 48 they were first elected and then believed, this is unconditional election. I showed you how this interpretation is not required by the text and does not fit the context with which Luke records these events. Referring back to verse 46, Paul makes it clear that the reason the Jews do not have eternal life is because they have rejected the word of God, not because they were not chosen or elected. The reason they don't have eternal life is because of something the did, rejecting the word of God. You are claiming that the gentiles were chosen before they believed, indicating that they had nothing to do with the their being chosen. My question is, given your understanding of verse 48, Why would God give the Jews a choice in salvation and not give the gentiles a choice?

When you understand verse 48 being in the middle voice you do not have this problem.

Greetings Butch,

Are the Jews who rejected the message any different than any other human? We would all reject the message, because all are born in Adam, dead in trespass and sin. Not one human would believe the message unless they have been ordained/appointed to eternal life. It is God Who chooses us, we will never, of our own free will choose Him.

Many Blessings,
RW

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 26th 2009, 10:18 PM
Greetings Butch,

Are the Jews who rejected the message any different than any other human? We would all reject the message, because all are born in Adam, dead in trespass and sin. Not one human would believe the message unless they have been ordained/appointed to eternal life. It is God Who chooses us, we will never, of our own free will choose Him.

Many Blessings,
RW
------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree... God is no respector of persons... this was Peters discernment when the Holy Ghost fell upon those Gentile believers as recorded in the book of Acts.. At the Marriage supper of the Lamb you will find both Jews and Gentiles who have been saved.. and are in Him, Jesus the Christ.. their heritage was Jews and Gentiles.. but In Him.. there neither one.. but all are 'one' in Christ... those who are chosen by Him and are appointed to Eternal Life...

on the other side.. at the GWT judgement you will find Jews and Gentiles both.. those who have rejected the Gospel Message and are judged out of the 'books' and whose names are 'not' found in the Lambs Book of Life..

God is no respector of persons.. In Him both are Saved.. and are neither..Jew nor Gentile .... but are 'one in Christ'... these chosen by Him and Elected by Him..

at the GWT judgement you'll see both Jews and Gentiles (both great and small) who rejected the message... at this point there is no difference becasue both are 'suffering' the same fate of Eternal Separation and placed in the Lake of Fire..

TrustingFollower
Jan 26th 2009, 10:41 PM
Not one human would believe the message unless they have been ordained/appointed to eternal life. It is God Who chooses us, we will never, of our own free will choose Him.

Many Blessings,
RW
The major problem with this thinking is it is stating you are saved by election and not by grace through faith in Christ. Without the possibility of going to hell there is no grace. Without the possibility of going to hell then there is no reason for faith as the outcome is determined already. So simply put the predestination doctrine is faulty for believing in being saved by election.

Now if we look at scripture for what it says we see that God chose Christ and only Christ. The only reason we get to be adopted into the family is because God has given grace to those that believe in Christ. God chose his only begotten son before the foundation of the world and then gave everything to his son until all His enemies are put under his feet. This is the only way to be saved by grace through faith in Christ.

HankZ
Jan 26th 2009, 11:03 PM
You said,



and I said that that interpretation is not required, nor does it fit the context of the passage. Paul has brought eternal life, through the gospel, he has preached it and the Jews rejected it. They did so of their own accord, Paul tells them that because they have rejected to gospel, they have judged themselves unworthy of eternal. They had a chance to receive eternal life but have rejected it. You claimed that in verse 48 they were first elected and then believed, this is unconditional election. I showed you how this interpretation is not required by the text and does not fit the context with which Luke records these events. Referring back to verse 46, Paul makes it clear that the reason the Jews do not have eternal life is because they have rejected the word of God, not because they were not chosen or elected. The reason they don't have eternal life is because of something the did, rejecting the word of God. You are claiming that the gentiles were chosen before they believed, indicating that they had nothing to do with the their being chosen. My question is, given your understanding of verse 48, Why would God give the Jews a choice in salvation and not give the gentiles a choice?

When you understand verse 48 being in the middle voice you do not have this problem.

Since Acts 13:48 seems to be problematic, lets try another. I am not sure which versions you believe to be false, so I tried these.
Romans 9:14-20 (New American Standard Bible)



14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Romans 9:16 (Amplified Bible)

16So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy.

Romans 9:16 (New Living Translation)


16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.


Romans 9:16 (King James Version)


16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Romans 9:16 (New King James Version)

16 So then [I]it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

I hope this answers your question.

Trustingfollower, I think this verse causes proplems in your post #156 as well.

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 11:28 PM
Greetings Butch,

Are the Jews who rejected the message any different than any other human? We would all reject the message, because all are born in Adam, dead in trespass and sin. Not one human would believe the message unless they have been ordained/appointed to eternal life. It is God Who chooses us, we will never, of our own free will choose Him.

Many Blessings,
RW

Who was born is Adam? Where does Scripture say that?

Can you show me from Scripture that all would reject the message?

We will never choose God of our will?

Can you show me where someone was chosen for salvation by God apart from their will?

TrustingFollower
Jan 26th 2009, 11:34 PM
.
Romans 9:14-20 (New American Standard Bible)



14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?


Trustingfollower, I think this verse causes proplems in your post #156 as well.
How would it cause a problem with what I posted in post #156 scripture does not conflict itself. Read on a little farther and then we can go on into what is being said about having mercy on who he has mercy.

Romans 9:20-23 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--

What are the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy? Scripture tells us if we want to look for the answer.

1 Corinthians 15:36-50 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. (37) And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. (38) But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. (39) For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. (40) There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. (41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. (42) So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. (43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (45) Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (46) But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. (47) The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. (48) As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. (49) Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. (50) I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,

Paul went to great detail to explain it to the church in Corinth. Vessels of wrath are every single body that is walking around on this earth. Our mortal sinful fleshy bodies will all be destroyed as they are now. Vessels of mercy are the resurrection bodies that God has prepared for us. The very bodies that our spirits are groaning for. They are called vessels of mercy for the believers only because believers are the ones that will receive grace for eternal life.

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 11:40 PM
Since Acts 13:48 seems to be problematic, lets try another. I am not sure which versions you believe to be false, so I tried these.
Romans 9:14-20 (New American Standard Bible)



14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Romans 9:16 (Amplified Bible)

16So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy.

Romans 9:16 (New Living Translation)


16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.


Romans 9:16 (King James Version)


16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Romans 9:16 (New King James Version)

16 So then [I]it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

I hope this answers your question.

Trustingfollower, I think this verse causes proplems in your post #156 as well.

First, you have not dealt with the issue in Acts 13:48, there is no difficulty with this verse unless we use your interpretation.

Secondly, please explain how the verses that you quoted from Romans 9, speak of salvation.

RogerW
Jan 26th 2009, 11:43 PM
The major problem with this thinking is it is stating you are saved by election and not by grace through faith in Christ. Without the possibility of going to hell there is no grace. Without the possibility of going to hell then there is no reason for faith as the outcome is determined already. So simply put the predestination doctrine is faulty for believing in being saved by election.

Now if we look at scripture for what it says we see that God chose Christ and only Christ. The only reason we get to be adopted into the family is because God has given grace to those that believe in Christ. God chose his only begotten son before the foundation of the world and then gave everything to his son until all His enemies are put under his feet. This is the only way to be saved by grace through faith in Christ.

Greetings TrustingFollower,

No one is saved by election! As you have said we are saved by grace through faith that is not of ourselves but the gift of God. We are elected to be saved...that's quite different than saying we are saved by election! I certainly hope you can see the difference.

Yes, Scripture does say Chirst is the elect...but it also says that all who are in Him are elect. God chose all of His elect before the foundation of the world, and wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life. These, and these alone will be saved by grace through faith that is not their own but the gift of God that no man may boast.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 11:45 PM
Greetings Butch,

Are the Jews who rejected the message any different than any other human? We would all reject the message, because all are born in Adam, dead in trespass and sin. Not one human would believe the message unless they have been ordained/appointed to eternal life. It is God Who chooses us, we will never, of our own free will choose Him.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

Paul says the Jews judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. Paul took eternal life to them, they rejected it, and Paul says it is your own fault that you do not have eternal life. He says it is their fault, not that they weren't chosen or predestined, but because they rejected the word of God. How is it that the Jews could choose whether on not they wanted to be saved, yet the gentiles could not?

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 11:46 PM
Greetings TrustingFollower,

No one is saved by election! As you have said we are saved by grace through faith that is not of ourselves but the gift of God. We are elected to be saved...that's quite different than saying we are saved by election! I certainly hope you can see the difference.

Yes, Scripture does say Chirst is the elect...but it also says that all who are in Him are elect. God chose all of His elect before the foundation of the world, and wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life. These, and these alone will be saved by grace through faith that is not their own but the gift of God that no man may boast.

Many Blessings,
RW

Where dose Scrpiture say we were elected to be saved?

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 12:05 AM
Roger,

Paul says the Jews judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. Paul took eternal life to them, they rejected it, and Paul says it is your own fault that you do not have eternal life. He says it is their fault, not that they weren't chosen or predestined, but because they rejected the word of God. How is it that the Jews could choose whether on not they wanted to be saved, yet the gentiles could not?

Greetings Butch,

"There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." This is the condition of every human, having been born of the flesh, of the seed of their first father, Adam; i.e. born in Adam, of the natural; or flesh and blood. Whose fault is it that fallen mankind is not righteous, does not understand, and does not seek after God? God created human perfect, therefore when man rejects Him, the fault is their own. We are all born of the seed of Adam; humans, therefore we are all fallen and without ability to seek God for eternal life. No man would be saved, unless God, from before the foundation of the world, elected some men to be saved. It matters not one whit whether Jew or Gentile, every human is born in the same condition, none are righteous, none understand, none seek God.

Many Blessings,
RW

HankZ
Jan 27th 2009, 12:11 AM
Where dose Scrpiture say we were elected to be saved?

Romans 8:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=29&version=49&context=verse)
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Romans 8:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=30&version=49&context=verse)
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=5&version=49&context=verse)
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=11&version=49&context=verse)
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Matthew 24:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=22&version=49&context=verse)
"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=24&version=49&context=verse)
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=31&version=49&context=verse)
"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=20&version=49&context=verse)
"Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mark 13:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=22&version=49&context=verse)
for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mark 13:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=27&version=49&context=verse)
"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Luke 18:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=18&verse=7&version=49&context=verse)
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Romans 8:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=33&version=49&context=verse)
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 12:12 AM
Where dose Scrpiture say we were elected to be saved?

Butch,

I always gain so much when I search the Scripture myself for answers. Just do a search for chosen, elect.

Search for G1588 in KJVSL
eklektoV eklektos ek-lek-tos'
from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 12:14 AM
Greetings Butch,

"There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." This is the condition of every human, having been born of the flesh, of the seed of their first father, Adam; i.e. born in Adam, of the natural; or flesh and blood. Whose fault is it that fallen mankind is not righteous, does not understand, and does not seek after God? God created human perfect, therefore when man rejects Him, the fault is their own. We are all born of the seed of Adam; humans, therefore we are all fallen and without ability to seek God for eternal life. No man would be saved, unless God, from before the foundation of the world, elected some men to be saved. It matters not one whit whether Jew or Gentile, every human is born in the same condition, none are righteous, none understand, none seek God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

I already know what you believe. Please deal with the question.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 12:15 AM
Butch,

I always gain so much when I search the Scripture myself for answers. Just do a search for chosen, elect.

Search for G1588 in KJVSL
eklektoV eklektos ek-lek-tos'
from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

Please answer the questioin, we are all waiting.

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 12:19 AM
Roger,

I already know what you believe. Please deal with the question.

Butch,

No man can of their own natural free will choose Christ for eternal life!!! NONE! Not Jew, not Gentile! Therefore it is no great surprise that Scripture does NOT teach that Jews can choose Christ for eternal life, but Gentiles cannot.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 12:20 AM
Romans 8:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=29&version=49&context=verse)
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Romans 8:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=30&version=49&context=verse)
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=5&version=49&context=verse)
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=11&version=49&context=verse)
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Matthew 24:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=22&version=49&context=verse)
"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=24&version=49&context=verse)
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=31&version=49&context=verse)
"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=20&version=49&context=verse)
"Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mark 13:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=22&version=49&context=verse)
for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mark 13:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=27&version=49&context=verse)
"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Luke 18:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=18&verse=7&version=49&context=verse)
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Romans 8:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=33&version=49&context=verse)
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

Can you please tell me which of these says we were elected to be saved?


I don't think anyone here doubts the existence of the elect, however, the question was where does Scripture teach that we were elected to be saved?

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 12:21 AM
Roger,

Please answer the questioin, we are all waiting.

Well Butch, what sayeth the Scripture? After all you don't really want to know what I teach, but what Scripture teaches....RIGHT?

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 12:27 AM
Can you please tell me which of these says we were elected to be saved?
I don't think anyone here doubts the existence of the elect, however, the question was where does Scripture teach that we were elected to be saved?

Butch,

Hank gave you several verses to consider. Are you looking for a verse that specifically says "I, God, have elected some men to be saved"?

How would you interpret the following passage?

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 12:27 AM
Well Butch, what sayeth the Scripture? After all you don't really want to know what I teach, but what Scripture teaches....RIGHT?

Blessings,
RW

Since you chose to respond to the question, I would just like an answer to the question.

Paul says the Jews judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. Paul took eternal life to them, they rejected it, and Paul says it is your own fault that you do not have eternal life. He says it is their fault, not that they weren't chosen or predestined, but because they rejected the word of God. How is it that the Jews could choose whether on not they wanted to be saved, yet the gentiles could not?

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 12:51 AM
Since you chose to respond to the question, I would just like an answer to the question.

Paul says the Jews judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. Paul took eternal life to them, they rejected it, and Paul says it is your own fault that you do not have eternal life. He says it is their fault, not that they weren't chosen or predestined, but because they rejected the word of God. How is it that the Jews could choose whether on not they wanted to be saved, yet the gentiles could not?

Butch,

Every man born in this world rejects God, judging themselves unworthy of eternal life...unless God changes their will and makes them willing. There is no exception with the Jews. If you'll read the passage in Acts 13 very carefully, you'll find the Jews were not given a choice to be saved. The passage shows their true heart; contradicting, and blaspheming Paul and Barnabas. This is how they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. It does not tell us they could have chosen to believe and be saved. In fact it tells us the exact opposite. Even after the Word was preached among the Gentiles, and all ordained/appointed unto eternal life believed, the Jews continue to show the hardness of their hearts by raising up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, expelling them out of their coasts.

You seem to assume that because they rejected the message they could have done otherwise. But there is nothing in the passage that would lead us to conclude that they could have, in their fallen, spiritually dead natural flesh receive the message in faith and be made worthy to receive eternal life. They rejected the message Paul and Barnabas brought, because they were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. The difference between these Jews and those Gentiles who believed is the Gentiles had been chosen/elect/appointed/ordained unto eternal life, and the Jews had not. Therefore the Jews who rejected the message were left in spiritual death, and the Gentiles ordained to eternal life were given a new nature, and saved by grace through faith that was not their own, but the gift of God that no man may boast.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 01:24 AM
Butch,

Hank gave you several verses to consider. Are you looking for a verse that specifically says "I, God, have elected some men to be saved"?

How would you interpret the following passage?

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Many Blessings,
RW

First let say that only 2 of the verses that Hank posted intimate the idea the elect being chosen and I am waiting for him to bring those out.

How would I interpret this passage in 1 Peter? First, Peter is clearly speaking of an elect group. This group was elect because of the foreknowledge of God. What is foreknowledge? Does it not mean to know before?

Title : Theological Dictionary of the New Testament – Abridged

proginosko, prognosis. The verb means "to know in advance," and in the NT it refers to God's foreknowledge as election of his people (Ro 8:29; 11:2) or of Christ (1Pe 1:20), or to the advance knowledge that believers have by prophecy (2Pe 3:17). Another possible meaning is "to know before the time of speaking," as in Ac 26:5. The noun is used by the LXX in Jdt. 9:6 for God's predeterminative foreknowledge and in Jdt. 11:19 for prophetic foreknowledge; Justin uses it similarly in Dialogue with Trypho 92.5; 39.2.

Title : The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G4268. πρόγνωσις prognōsis; gen. prognōseōs, fem. noun from proginōskō (G4267), to know beforehand. Foreknowledge, prior acknowledgement, favorable recognition or consideration beforehand (Acts 2:23; 1 Pet. 1:2). It is used to denote the foreordained fellowship of God with the objects of His saving power. Syn.: pronoia (G4307), forethought, providence; prothesis (G4286), a setting forth beforehand.

Since the word foreknowledge can mean to know before, Surly Peter can be saying that they are elect because God know them before, just as Paul says in Romans 8:28-29. Paul says those God knew before He called. He says that those who were called were the ones who love God. Now consider who Peter is writing to, strangers of the diaspora, these were the Jews, so yes God would have known them before, since they were His chosen people.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 01:39 AM
Butch,

Every man born in this world rejects God, judging themselves unworthy of eternal life...unless God changes their will and makes them willing. There is no exception with the Jews. If you'll read the passage in Acts 13 very carefully, you'll find the Jews were not given a choice to be saved. The passage shows their true heart; contradicting, and blaspheming Paul and Barnabas. This is how they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. It does not tell us they could have chosen to believe and be saved. In fact it tells us the exact opposite. Even after the Word was preached among the Gentiles, and all ordained/appointed unto eternal life believed, the Jews continue to show the hardness of their hearts by raising up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, expelling them out of their coasts.

You seem to assume that because they rejected the message they could have done otherwise. But there is nothing in the passage that would lead us to conclude that they could have, in their fallen, spiritually dead natural flesh receive the message in faith and be made worthy to receive eternal life. They rejected the message Paul and Barnabas brought, because they were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. The difference between these Jews and those Gentiles who believed is the Gentiles had been chosen/elect/appointed/ordained unto eternal life, and the Jews had not. Therefore the Jews who rejected the message were left in spiritual death, and the Gentiles ordained to eternal life were given a new nature, and saved by grace through faith that was not their own, but the gift of God that no man may boast.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

Roger,

Paul makes it abundantly clear, when he says to the Jews You judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, that it is their fault that they do not have eternal life. He does not say, you are not elect, he does not say, you were not chosen, he says you do not have eternal life because you have rejected the word of God and determined yourselves unworthy. He places the blame squarely on the their shoulders, not God's. You can make your claims that no one can do this or that, and no man can turn to God, but Paul clearly says these Jews do not have eternal life and it is their own fault. This is a problem for the doctrine of unconditional election. Yet the next claim is that the gentiles were chosen before they believed, even though the Greek word "tasso" can be translated disposed, and that it is in the middle voice which indicates that the action is performed by the subject upon itself. So whether it is translated disposed or ordained, the disposing or ordaining is being done by those gentiles who believed.

HankZ
Jan 27th 2009, 02:59 AM
Can you please tell me which of these says we were elected to be saved?


I don't think anyone here doubts the existence of the elect, however, the question was where does Scripture teach that we were elected to be saved?

Ezekiel 36:25-27 (New American Standard Bible)
25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.



Romans 9:14-18 (New American Standard Bible)
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New American Standard Bible)



8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 03:00 AM
First let say that only 2 of the verses that Hank posted intimate the idea the elect being chosen and I am waiting for him to bring those out.

How would I interpret this passage in 1 Peter? First, Peter is clearly speaking of an elect group. This group was elect because of the foreknowledge of God. What is foreknowledge? Does it not mean to know before?

Title : Theological Dictionary of the New Testament – Abridged

proginosko, prognosis. The verb means "to know in advance," and in the NT it refers to God's foreknowledge as election of his people (Ro 8:29; 11:2) or of Christ (1Pe 1:20), or to the advance knowledge that believers have by prophecy (2Pe 3:17). Another possible meaning is "to know before the time of speaking," as in Ac 26:5. The noun is used by the LXX in Jdt. 9:6 for God's predeterminative foreknowledge and in Jdt. 11:19 for prophetic foreknowledge; Justin uses it similarly in Dialogue with Trypho 92.5; 39.2.

Title : The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G4268. πρόγνωσις prognōsis; gen. prognōseōs, fem. noun from proginōskō (G4267), to know beforehand. Foreknowledge, prior acknowledgement, favorable recognition or consideration beforehand (Acts 2:23; 1 Pet. 1:2). It is used to denote the foreordained fellowship of God with the objects of His saving power. Syn.: pronoia (G4307), forethought, providence; prothesis (G4286), a setting forth beforehand.

Since the word foreknowledge can mean to know before, Surly Peter can be saying that they are elect because God know them before, just as Paul says in Romans 8:28-29. Paul says those God knew before He called. He says that those who were called were the ones who love God. Now consider who Peter is writing to, strangers of the diaspora, these were the Jews, so yes God would have known them before, since they were His chosen people.

Greetings Butch,

The Greek word prognosis has been translated foreknowledge, meaning forethought twice in the New Testament. One being 1Pe 1:2, the other:

Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

"Him, being delivered by the determinate [to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:--declare, determine, limit, ordain] counsel [volition, i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose:--+ advise, counsel, will] and [forethought] of God"....

"Him, being delivered by the specific counsel and forethought of God"...

4268. prognosis -forethought:--foreknowledge.

Forethought - a thinking beforehand; anticipation; premeditation, prudent thought for the future; foresight. adj. planned beforehand.

1Pe 1:2 "Elect [select chosen favorite] according to the foreknowledge [prudent forethought for the future] of God the Father, through sanctification [purification] of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"...

God knows His elect from before the foundation of the world. How does He know them? Is His knowing them the same as He knows all men? According to Scripture He knows His elect in a special way even before they are born.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Lu 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

Ga 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Those who worship the beast never have their names written in the book of life, but God writes the names of His elect in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

God has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We (elect) could not be chosen or written in the book of life before the foundation of the world if God does not know us before the foundation of the world.

We must be foreknown of God before the world began for God to promise to give us eternal life before the world began.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Very clearly God knows before the world was all who are ordained unto eternal life. But to the rest Christ will say:

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 03:06 AM
Roger,

Roger,

Paul makes it abundantly clear, when he says to the Jews You judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, that it is their fault that they do not have eternal life. He does not say, you are not elect, he does not say, you were not chosen, he says you do not have eternal life because you have rejected the word of God and determined yourselves unworthy. He places the blame squarely on the their shoulders, not God's. You can make your claims that no one can do this or that, and no man can turn to God, but Paul clearly says these Jews do not have eternal life and it is their own fault. This is a problem for the doctrine of unconditional election. Yet the next claim is that the gentiles were chosen before they believed, even though the Greek word "tasso" can be translated disposed, and that it is in the middle voice which indicates that the action is performed by the subject upon itself. So whether it is translated disposed or ordained, the disposing or ordaining is being done by those gentiles who believed.

Butch,

All men are without excuse! It is always man's fault, the blame lies squarely upon their shoulders when they reject the message of life. What you fail to grasp is that every human would continue in rebellion and hardness of heart unless God shows them mercy and by His grace through faith that is not their own, but the gift of God saves them. Salvation is of the Lord...nothing of us, all of Him. Unless God gives His great love, mercy and grace to His chosen people, then no people will be saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Jan 27th 2009, 01:19 PM
I've enjoyed this discussion, but it seems that no answers that satisfy or convince are forthcoming so I'll be exiting this thread now.

John146
Jan 27th 2009, 06:48 PM
Butch,

All men are without excuse! It is always man's fault, the blame lies squarely upon their shoulders when they reject the message of life. What you fail to grasp is that every human would continue in rebellion and hardness of heart unless God shows them mercy and by His grace through faith that is not their own, but the gift of God saves them. Salvation is of the Lord...nothing of us, all of Him. Unless God gives His great love, mercy and grace to His chosen people, then no people will be saved.

Many Blessings,
RWWhy is it man's fault that he doesn't believe when it is God who supposedly has chosen not to give faith to most people while giving it to only a few chosen ones? In other words, why is anyone at fault for not believing in Christ if he/she is supposedly not even capable of believing in Christ?

RogerW
Jan 27th 2009, 07:24 PM
Why is it man's fault that he doesn't believe when it is God who supposedly has chosen not to give faith to most people while giving it to only a few chosen ones? In other words, why is anyone at fault for not believing in Christ if he/she is supposedly not even capable of believing in Christ?

Greetings Eric,

Was God unfair when He condemned the whole creation in the flood? Was it God's fault they were condemned or their own wickedness? Why did only Noah find grace in the eyes of the LORD (Ge 6:8)? In finding grace from the LORD, is Noah declared righteous because he is more deserving than all other men?

What about God's choosing only one small nation in all the world to extend His love and mercy upon? Was the nation more deserving than other peoples of the earth? Was God unfair to choose only them and rejecting all the other peoples of the earth?

Try looking at it from the perspective of God's great love, grace, mercy and compassion, instead of looking at it from the perspective that God is unfair if He does not give every man the "chance" to be saved. Every man is without excuse because every man, born of Adam, refuses the light they have been given through creation, and conscience.

None are righteous, no not one, none seek God!!!

It is not God's fault that man is fallen...God created man very good! God says He will have mercy and compassion on whom He wills. We can challenge God in our ignorance, asking why He would choose to save some, while leaving the rest in unbelief. However it is not our place to question the Almighty. Therefore we must, in great gratitude and love thank God for choosing to save any men, otherwise every man would be condemned, because every man is born of the seed of Adam, dead in trespasses and sins. Left in this condition, man by nature will not come to Christ for life. God must intevene, making them willing if any man will be saved.

Are we overjoyed that God has chosen to save His creation (whole world) by electing some people to eternal life? Are we not people of gratitude, knowing that if God does not save some men, then all of creation would be lost, and no man would be saved?

Many Blessings,
RW

HankZ
Jan 27th 2009, 10:10 PM
Why is it man's fault that he doesn't believe when it is God who supposedly has chosen not to give faith to most people while giving it to only a few chosen ones? In other words, why is anyone at fault for not believing in Christ if he/she is supposedly not even capable of believing in Christ?

That isn't a question that you will get an answer for. God's ways are not our ways. We cannot understand His ways from our human perspective, He is God.

Romans 9:19-21 (New American Standard Bible)
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 10:39 PM
Greetings Eric,

Was God unfair when He condemned the whole creation in the flood? Was it God's fault they were condemned or their own wickedness? Why did only Noah find grace in the eyes of the LORD (Ge 6:8)? In finding grace from the LORD, is Noah declared righteous because he is more deserving than all other men?

What about God's choosing only one small nation in all the world to extend His love and mercy upon? Was the nation more deserving than other peoples of the earth? Was God unfair to choose only them and rejecting all the other peoples of the earth?

Try looking at it from the perspective of God's great love, grace, mercy and compassion, instead of looking at it from the perspective that God is unfair if He does not give every man the "chance" to be saved. Every man is without excuse because every man, born of Adam, refuses the light they have been given through creation, and conscience.

None are righteous, no not one, none seek God!!!

It is not God's fault that man is fallen...God created man very good! God says He will have mercy and compassion on whom He wills. We can challenge God in our ignorance, asking why He would choose to save some, while leaving the rest in unbelief. However it is not our place to question the Almighty. Therefore we must, in great gratitude and love thank God for choosing to save any men, otherwise every man would be condemned, because every man is born of the seed of Adam, dead in trespasses and sins. Left in this condition, man by nature will not come to Christ for life. God must intevene, making them willing if any man will be saved.

Are we overjoyed that God has chosen to save His creation (whole world) by electing some people to eternal life? Are we not people of gratitude, knowing that if God does not save some men, then all of creation would be lost, and no man would be saved?

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

You can't have it both ways


Roger---Was it God's fault they were condemned or their own wickedness?



Roger---otherwise every man would be condemned, because every man is born of the seed of Adam, dead in trespasses and sins. Left in this condition, man by nature will not come to Christ for life.

First you say every man is responsible for his own wickedness, then you say every man is condemned because he is born of Adam, which is not every man's fault

What man have the choice to not be born of Adam ( as put it)?

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 10:44 PM
RogerW---No man can of their own natural free will choose Christ for eternal life!!! NONE! Not Jew, not Gentile!


That is your opinion, not supported in Scripture.




Roger---Therefore it is no great surprise that Scripture does NOT teach that Jews can choose Christ for eternal life, but Gentiles cannot.


That is exactly my point Roger, therefore, those who claim that Acts 13:48 proves unconditional election are interpreting that Passage incorrectly, as I stated in my opening post.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 11:09 PM
Greetings Butch,

The Greek word prognosis has been translated foreknowledge, meaning forethought twice in the New Testament. One being 1Pe 1:2, the other:

Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

"Him, being delivered by the determinate [to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:--declare, determine, limit, ordain] counsel [volition, i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose:--+ advise, counsel, will] and [forethought] of God"....

"Him, being delivered by the specific counsel and forethought of God"...

4268. prognosis -forethought:--foreknowledge.

Forethought - a thinking beforehand; anticipation; premeditation, prudent thought for the future; foresight. adj. planned beforehand.

1Pe 1:2 "Elect [select chosen favorite] according to the foreknowledge [prudent forethought for the future] of God the Father, through sanctification [purification] of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"...

God knows His elect from before the foundation of the world. How does He know them? Is His knowing them the same as He knows all men? According to Scripture He knows His elect in a special way even before they are born.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Lu 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

Ga 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Those who worship the beast never have their names written in the book of life, but God writes the names of His elect in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

God has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We (elect) could not be chosen or written in the book of life before the foundation of the world if God does not know us before the foundation of the world.

We must be foreknown of God before the world began for God to promise to give us eternal life before the world began.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Very clearly God knows before the world was all who are ordained unto eternal life. But to the rest Christ will say:

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

What doctrine should I espouse with a cut and paste methodology? Why don't you put all of those verses in context and show me that they actually say what you claim they say?

Let's take few, Ephesians 1:4 Speaks of Paul and the apostles. All of the verses you posted regarding God knowing them from the womb refer to Prophets, Do you have any Scriptures that say God chose Joe or Bob from the womb. Regarding the book of life, we had that discussion, however I guess you never investigated what I said. your interpretation is not supported by the text because in the Greek language the phrase "from the foundation of the world" can apply to either the names or the book, there is no way to tell which it is. However, John does give us a clue to the possible application,


Revelation 17:8 ( KJV ) 8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 13:8 ( KJV ) 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

John speaks of the names written twice here in Revelation, in 13:8 it is clear that it is the book of life that is from the foundation of the world. As I said previously, in 17:8, the Greek language does not tell us which clause the Phrase applies to, however, looking at 13:8 it is clear that John says it is the book that is from the foundation of the world. So, I think it is highly likely that he means the book in 17:8 also. Again can't say for sure but he evidence is very strong. Let's keep the Scriptures in context.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 11:14 PM
Ezekiel 36:25-27 (New American Standard Bible)
25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.



Romans 9:14-18 (New American Standard Bible)
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New American Standard Bible)



8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The question was, where does Scripture teach that we were elected to be saved, these verses do not deal with this question.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 11:23 PM
Butch,

All men are without excuse! It is always man's fault, the blame lies squarely upon their shoulders when they reject the message of life. What you fail to grasp is that every human would continue in rebellion and hardness of heart unless God shows them mercy and by His grace through faith that is not their own, but the gift of God saves them. Salvation is of the Lord...nothing of us, all of Him. Unless God gives His great love, mercy and grace to His chosen people, then no people will be saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

Lol, I have failed to grasp? Every man is responsible for his own rebellion, yet he can do nothing else unless God changes him? So wouldn't that mean that God made him that way? If God made him that way, then he is obeying God, because he is doing just what God made him to do.

HankZ
Jan 28th 2009, 12:18 AM
The question was, where does Scripture teach that we were elected to be saved, these verses do not deal with this question.

Not only has this question been answered in these verses, but many times through out the bible.

RogerW
Jan 28th 2009, 01:12 AM
Roger,

What doctrine should I espouse with a cut and paste methodology? Why don't you put all of those verses in context and show me that they actually say what you claim they say?

Let's take few, Ephesians 1:4 Speaks of Paul and the apostles. All of the verses you posted regarding God knowing them from the womb refer to Prophets, Do you have any Scriptures that say God chose Joe or Bob from the womb.

How about chosen from the foundation of the world. I'm willing to bet that some of these who inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world are named Joe, Bob, Jack, Joan, etc.

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

There are also abundant references to "Israel, My chosen" or "Jacob, His chosen ones" or "to My people, My chosen". Are all the Israel of God, or all of His spiritual seed prophets? Certainly most of them are common folk just like you and I?



Regarding the book of life, we had that discussion, however I guess you never investigated what I said. your interpretation is not supported by the text because in the Greek language the phrase "from the foundation of the world" can apply to either the names or the book, there is no way to tell which it is. However, John does give us a clue to the possible application,

Revelation 17:8 ( KJV ) 8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 13:8 ( KJV ) 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

John speaks of the names written twice here in Revelation, in 13:8 it is clear that it is the book of life that is from the foundation of the world. As I said previously, in 17:8, the Greek language does not tell us which clause the Phrase applies to, however, looking at 13:8 it is clear that John says it is the book that is from the foundation of the world. So, I think it is highly likely that he means the book in 17:8 also. Again can't say for sure but he evidence is very strong. Let's keep the Scriptures in context.

Eph 1:4 tells us someone was chosen from the foundation of the world. Even if this passage is referring only to Paul and the apostles (and I don't agree it does), a very convincing arguement can be made for having their names written in the book from the foundation of the world, since that is when they were chosen. We also have the names of the seventy disciples already written in heaven. We find evidence in Scripture that names are written in the book from the foundation of the world, but we have zero, nada, none, zilch evidence that names are written in the book when we become saved. One more point to be made here is that this occurred before the day of Pentecost, so the Holy Spirit was not yet sent to indwell these seventy disciples of Christ.

Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 28th 2009, 01:19 AM
Lol, I have failed to grasp? Every man is responsible for his own rebellion, yet he can do nothing else unless God changes him? So wouldn't that mean that God made him that way? If God made him that way, then he is obeying God, because he is doing just what God made him to do.

Butch,

When God created human doesn't He tell us all that He created was "very good"? If all He created was very good how can you assume disobeying God is God's fault? Man cast himself into a state of spiritual death, he became dead in trespasses and sins, God did not make him sinful. Think about that for a moment. We are all born of flesh, from the seed of the first Adam. Therefore we are all born with a natural desire for sin and rebellion against God. There is NOTHING in ourselves we can do about this natural desire...But God, Who is rich in mercy toward His elect will save a people for Himself, despite their fallen, sinful natures. If He did nothing, then His glorious creation would cease, and no man would be saved for eternity.

Many Blessings,
RW

TrustingFollower
Jan 28th 2009, 01:43 AM
Romans 3:22-26 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

This show with out a doubt that it is by faith in Jesus Christ and not by election. If it were about election verse 22 would have to read through faith in Jesus Christ for all who are elect. God never picked any of us before the foundation of the world. God picked Christ and those who have faith in Christ.

BrckBrln
Jan 28th 2009, 01:50 AM
God never picked any of us before the foundation of the world.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Ephesians 1:1-3

The text clearly states that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world and the context shows this choosing is a choosing to Salvation. To use an Arminian phrase 'why can't we just let the text speak for itself' or something like that. :cool:

And I have a question for all of you who think we Calvinists believe our Salvation is based on election rather than Christ's death on the cross. Do you need the Holy Spirit to be saved? I assume you all believe when we believe in Christ we get the Holy Spirit but we all know it's not the Holy Spirit alone who saves us, yet nobody is saved unless they have the Holy Spirit, right?

TrustingFollower
Jan 28th 2009, 02:08 AM
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Ephesians 1:1-3

The text clearly states that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world and the context shows this choosing is a choosing to Salvation. To use an Arminian phrase 'why can't we just let the text speak for itself' or something like that. :cool:


Yes, read it for what it says. It says what I stated in the post above this. God chose Christ and those who have faith in Christ. That is what it means when it says we were chose in him. It does not say anywhere in scripture that God chose any individuals per say other than anyone who has faith in Christ.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 02:56 AM
Butch,

When God created human doesn't He tell us all that He created was "very good"? If all He created was very good how can you assume disobeying God is God's fault? Man cast himself into a state of spiritual death, he became dead in trespasses and sins, God did not make him sinful. Think about that for a moment. We are all born of flesh, from the seed of the first Adam. Therefore we are all born with a natural desire for sin and rebellion against God. There is NOTHING in ourselves we can do about this natural desire...But God, Who is rich in mercy toward His elect will save a people for Himself, despite their fallen, sinful natures. If He did nothing, then His glorious creation would cease, and no man would be saved for eternity.

Many Blessings,
RW

I didn't say man's disobedience was God's fault. You quoted Jeremiah, Where God said He knew him before He formed him in the womb.

Jeremiah 1:5 ( KJV ) 5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah is of the seed of Adam (according to you). Did God make Jeremiah in such a way that he was unable to come to God, if he had not been elected? If yes, then it seems this is the way God makes all men. If this is the way God makes all men, then the reason they do not come to God would be God's fault. This is where you get to when you follow your doctrine to it's logical conclusion.

However I reject this line of thought. As you said, when God made Adam, He said "it is very good". Adam sinned, therefore Adam had the capability to sin when God said "it is very good", yet Adam lived in a perfect world. What happened when Adam sinned? God told Adam the day he ate of the tree of knowledge he would die, after Adam ate from the tree what happened? The serpent was cursed, the woman was cursed, and the ground was cursed. What about Adam? What curse was put on Adam? None, Adam did not receive a curse. So where is your claim from? You said all men sin because we are from Adam. Since we don't see a curse on Adam, I think we can rule out the fall, and since even in a perfect world Adam was created with the ability to sin, I think it is fair to say that every man is created with the ability to sin. I don't think we need to blame it on Adam. Therefore every man sins because he chooses to do so, it is not because of Adam, and not because God made us that way, it is because we choose to sin.

Let's take this to the next step, you said we can do nothing in turning to God, I think Ezekiel would disagree,


Ezekiel 18:21-22 ( KJV ) 21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.


Ezekiel 33:13-16 ( KJV ) 13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

You say unless God chooses some, none would be saved, however, Jesus said,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now before we get into a discussion of the word "all", let me post what else John said,


John 1:1-6 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.



5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.




So, the light, Christ, was the light of men.





John 1:7 ( KJV ) 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.




So, through the light, "all" men might believe, here again we have all men, let's continue,





John 1:8 ( KJV ) 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.




John bears witness to the light.




John 1:9 ( KJV ) 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.




The true light, lights "every man" that comes into the world.




I think John makes it clear, that God does choose some to be saved, the some is, "every man that comes into the world." John makes it clear that God wants every person to be saved and Jesus gives every person understanding (light) and He draws every single person to himself. If anyone does not get saved, it is because they chose to not believe.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 03:00 AM
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Ephesians 1:1-3

The text clearly states that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world and the context shows this choosing is a choosing to Salvation. To use an Arminian phrase 'why can't we just let the text speak for itself' or something like that. :cool:

And I have a question for all of you who think we Calvinists believe our Salvation is based on election rather than Christ's death on the cross. Do you need the Holy Spirit to be saved? I assume you all believe when we believe in Christ we get the Holy Spirit but we all know it's not the Holy Spirit alone who saves us, yet nobody is saved unless they have the Holy Spirit, right?

Didn't you read that website that I posted, which shows these verses in Ephesians 1:3-12 are speaking of Paul and those with Him? Or did you read it and show that it is incorrect? If you have shown it incorrect I would be very much interested in seeing your summation.

RogerW
Jan 28th 2009, 04:00 AM
Romans 3:22-26 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

This show with out a doubt that it is by faith in Jesus Christ and not by election. If it were about election verse 22 would have to read through faith in Jesus Christ for all who are elect. God never picked any of us before the foundation of the world. God picked Christ and those who have faith in Christ.

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The righteousness of God is manifested by faith OF Christ unto all and upon all them that believe. They are justified by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ, whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in HIS BLOOD, to declare HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.

And who will believe? Who can believe? Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world...therefore all who are in Christ are in Him from the foundation of the world...elect unto salvation.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 04:29 AM
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The righteousness of God is manifested by faith OF Christ unto all and upon all them that believe. They are justified by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ, whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in HIS BLOOD, to declare HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.

And who will believe? Who can believe? Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world...therefore all who are in Christ are in Him from the foundation of the world...elect unto salvation.

Many Blessings,
RW

How did you come up with that???

Yukerboy
Jan 28th 2009, 01:40 PM
Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

Two things have been granted by God in this verse.

1. To believe on Christ.
2. To suffer for Christ.

Those who were granted to suffer for Christ were granted to believe in Christ.

Yes, I'm liking this idea of reading the text for what it says.

TrustingFollower
Jan 28th 2009, 03:11 PM
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The righteousness of God is manifested by faith OF Christ unto all and upon all them that believe. They are justified by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ, whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in HIS BLOOD, to declare HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.

And who will believe? Who can believe? Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world...therefore all who are in Christ are in Him from the foundation of the world...elect unto salvation.

Many Blessings,
RW
Christ was considered slain before the foundation of the world. Having faith in Christ did not manifest anyone else there. Faith mean you believe it not you were there.

HankZ
Jan 28th 2009, 04:20 PM
Romans 3:22-26 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

This show with out a doubt that it is by faith in Jesus Christ and not by election. If it were about election verse 22 would have to read through faith in Jesus Christ for all who are elect. God never picked any of us before the foundation of the world. God picked Christ and those who have faith in Christ.


You missed a spot.

Veretax
Jan 28th 2009, 04:39 PM
TrustingFollower[/B]"] http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1961071#post1961071)
Romans 3:22-26 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (26) It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

This show with out a doubt that it is by faith in Jesus Christ and not by election. If it were about election verse 22 would have to read through faith in Jesus Christ for all who are elect. God never picked any of us before the foundation of the world. God picked Christ and those who have faith in Christ.

You missed a spot.


I'm not denying that we are justified because of his grace. There is nothing physical, no work that man can do to be counted righteousness. Jesus said "I am the way, the Truth, and the life, no man comes to the father but by me." Thus meaning, that the only way to salvation and restoration of God is thus through Christ. Now, If we look only at that verse it says that all have sinned and fallen short, and are justified by his grace as a gift.

Are ALL justified? I find that hard to believe, that would be universalism. Clearly the bible does not say that. So then we are back to the point of discussion. Whom is Justified by his grace as a gift? Paul clarifies this later in the Book.


Ro 4:13-5:30 (NKJV)


13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all...

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 4:13-5:30 (NKJV)


What is Paul Saying. The gift of Grace through Christ is to ALL Men, but it is only to them that receive it. How do they receive it? By accepting it by faith.

RogerW
Jan 28th 2009, 04:50 PM
Christ was considered slain before the foundation of the world. Having faith in Christ did not manifest anyone else there. Faith mean you believe it not you were there.

It is not faith "in" Christ that saves us. We are saved by grace "through" faith that is not our own...(((faith is NOT our own))), but the gift of God that no man may boast. Salvation is by His grace through His faith imputed to us from His righteousness...not our faith, not our righteousness, all of Him, none of man. Salvation is of the LORD!

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We are in Christ from the foundation of the world, through His spiritual seed. Just as we are in Adam from creation through his physical seed. Faith is made manifest in His elect people when we believe. How will we believe? Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. God supernaturally opens our ears to hear His voice through the power of His Word and Holy Spirit, and gives us the gift of faith enabling us to repent of our sins, and turn to Christ for eternal life.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 28th 2009, 04:53 PM
What is Paul Saying. The gift of Grace through Christ is to ALL Men, but it is only to them that receive it. How do they receive it? By accepting it by faith.

Greetings Veretax,

From whence cometh this faith?

Many Blessings,
RW

TrustingFollower
Jan 28th 2009, 05:12 PM
It is not faith "in" Christ that saves us. We are saved by grace through faith that is not our own...(((faith is NOT our own))), but the gift of God that no man may boast. Salvation is by His grace through His faith imputed to us from His righteousness...not our faith, not our righteousness, all of Him, none of man. Salvation is of the LORD!

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We are in Christ from the foundation of the world, through His spiritual seed. Just as we are in Adam from creation through his physical seed. Faith is made manifest in His elect people when we believe. How will we believe? Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. God supernaturally opens our ears to hear His voice through the power of His Word and Holy Spirit, and gives us the gift of faith enabling us to repent of our sins, and turn to Christ for eternal life.

Many Blessings,
RW
It says by faith we receive the gift of grace not the gift of faith. Salvation is by God's grace to all who believe in Christ. Grace is a gift as we all deserve to go to hell, but through the faith in Christ God spares those who believe.

Scripture says faith come by hearing the word of God, hence the reason behind the great commission given by Jesus. It does not say God supernaturally opens certain peoples ears to here the word. Each person has to hear it and either receive it or reject it.

Veretax
Jan 28th 2009, 05:50 PM
Greetings Veretax,

From whence cometh this faith?

Many Blessings,
RW


One dictionary online defines faith as:


Mental acceptance of and confidence in a claim as truth without proof supporting the claim;


Webster's defines faith as:


faith
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
—Idiom
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.



According to Strong's the word used in Romans 3:22 for faith is:

faith
Strong's Greek #4102
4102 pistis { pis’-tis}
from 3982; TDNT - 6:174, 849; n f
AV - faith 239, assurance 1, believe + 1537 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1; 244
GK - 4411 { πίστις }
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on


Faith is a response to what we have heard. Those who hear the message of the Gospel, those who are convicted and convinced of it thus respond in faith, and in so doing accept and receive the grace laid out by Christ.

You ask me where it comes from, and I tell you that all men understand faith. They just don't understand or are not enlightened to the truth that Christ is the only sure thing they can put their faith. Without faith even as natural men it would be impossible to have any security or trust in other men or women.

However, you want to argue that this faith comes from God. If in fact it does come from God and I'm not willing to say absolutely that it does not, it is given to all men and women because God himself has this attribute. When we were created in the likeness of God we were created with this ability called faith.

The issue then is not whether or not we have faith, but whether our faith is on the Solid rock and sure Foundation that is Christ or in corrupt ideas and things in the world. Only one is a Saving faith.

RogerW
Jan 28th 2009, 06:06 PM
I didn't say man's disobedience was God's fault. You quoted Jeremiah, Where God said He knew him before He formed him in the womb.

Jeremiah 1:5 ( KJV ) 5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah is of the seed of Adam (according to you). Did God make Jeremiah in such a way that he was unable to come to God, if he had not been elected?

Greetings Butch,

Jeremiah, like all men was born of flesh; i.e. the seed of Adam. Every man's lineage is traced back to Adam. God made the first human, Adam "very good", but Adam corrupted himself when he chose to disobey God. As a result Adam became a slave, in bondage to Satan, sin and death.

Since Jeremiah, and in fact every human, is of the seed of Adam, we, along with our first father, Adam are now born in this same bondage. This is why we read "were dead in trespasses and sins." If Jeremiah, and in fact every man is not elected to be saved, they will remain in this bondage without ever being given Spiritual life in Christ. They are born spiritually dead, separated from God and they will die spiritually dead, separated from God.

Jeremiah was among the elect unto salvation, therefore God intervened in the life of Jeremiah, changing his heart and will that he could believe God and in faith obey what God has called him to do.



If yes, then it seems this is the way God makes all men. If this is the way God makes all men, then the reason they do not come to God would be God's fault. This is where you get to when you follow your doctrine to it's logical conclusion.

Men will not come to Christ for life because man loves his sin more than he loves God. In his natural condition man's mind is set on the things of this physical world, and he will not of his own free will let go of the world's riches and turn to Christ. God must first change his heart to make him willing. It is not the fault of God, all men are without excuse. God has given every man enough knowledge of Him through creation and conscience that every man should be thankful, and praise God. But, instead, in his fallen state, man rejects God, and changes the glory of God into an image made like corruptible man. It is not the fault of God that man rejects Him. The fault is in our wicked, evil, self-centered hearts, refusing to cry out to God for forgiveness and salvation. Fallen man loves the darkness, and will not of himself come to the True Light.


However I reject this line of thought. As you said, when God made Adam, He said "it is very good". Adam sinned, therefore Adam had the capability to sin when God said "it is very good", yet Adam lived in a perfect world. What happened when Adam sinned? God told Adam the day he ate of the tree of knowledge he would die, after Adam ate from the tree what happened? The serpent was cursed, the woman was cursed, and the ground was cursed. What about Adam? What curse was put on Adam? None, Adam did not receive a curse. So where is your claim from? You said all men sin because we are from Adam. Since we don't see a curse on Adam, I think we can rule out the fall, and since even in a perfect world Adam was created with the ability to sin, I think it is fair to say that every man is created with the ability to sin. I don't think we need to blame it on Adam. Therefore every man sins because he chooses to do so, it is not because of Adam, and not because God made us that way, it is because we choose to sin.

The root of man's sin originates with Adam. From Adam every man, including Adam is cursed with spiritual death, and bondage to Satan and sin. This is why Scripture tells us we must be born again. Born not again of the flesh, as in Adam, but born of the Spirit.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Every man will continue to set his mind on the things of the flesh, and continue to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, with no ability to turn to Christ for life until/unless he/she is born again.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.



Let's take this to the next step, you said we can do nothing in turning to God, I think Ezekiel would disagree,

Study these verses from Ezekiel in light of the proverb the children were using to claim they were righteous, and being blamed for the sins of their fathers. When you put the whole chapter into context you'll find it has nothing to do with being given ability to choose to turn to Christ for eternal life, but is an ultimatum from God to obey and live in the land of promise, or disobey and die!



You say unless God chooses some, none would be saved, however, Jesus said,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now before we get into a discussion of the word "all", let me post what else John said,

It's not the word "all" that concerns me. It's the italicized word "men" that should be discussed. Italicized words, as you probably already know, are added to aid in reading. Sometimes they can be very helpful, but other times they simply add to confusion that already exists.

Here in Jo 12:32 reads, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me." If we read this as though Christ is saying every single human will be drawn to Him, then we would have to agree with universalism, because every man drawn to Christ is drawn by God, and is saved. Therefore, the only way this verse can be interpreted is that "all" who are drawn to Him are also drawn by Him.



John 1:1-6 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.


So, the light, Christ, was the light of men.

Butch, the verse tells us that even though the light shines in darkness, the darkness does not comprehend it. Clearly, those in darkness cannot comprehend the life that was given for the Light of men.




John 1:7 ( KJV ) 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.


So, through the light, "all" men might believe, here again we have all men, let's continue,

Here again we have a problem with italicized "men". Clearly if the darkness does not comprehend the Light, then every man is not given witness of the Light. But John does bear witness of the Light to "all" through Christ who believe.



John 1:8 ( KJV ) 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.


John bears witness to the light.


John 1:9 ( KJV ) 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


The true light, lights "every man" that comes into the world.


I think John makes it clear, that God does choose some to be saved, the some is, "every man that comes into the world." John makes it clear that God wants every person to be saved and Jesus gives every person understanding (light) and He draws every single person to himself. If anyone does not get saved, it is because they chose to not believe.


Christ is the True Light to which John bear witness. The True Light lights every man that comes into the world. Does that mean that every man has ability to comprehend the Light, and that God draws every single person to Himself as you claim?

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you have rightly understood this passage, then how can the world, and even His own (Jews) neither know Him or receive Him? Christ says only those who receive Him are given the power to become sons of God, and these believe on His name and are born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man...but of God! Born of God!!! Salvation is of the Lord! None of man, all of Him!

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Jan 28th 2009, 06:24 PM
Roger,

We agree on the lineage of Man from Adam I think. However had a few more questions.



Men will not come to Christ for life because man loves his sin more than he loves God. In his natural condition man's mind is set on the things of this physical world, and he will not of his own free will let go of the world's riches and turn to Christ. God must first change his heart to make him willing. It is not the fault of God, all men are without excuse. God has given every man enough knowledge of Him through creation and conscience that every man should be thankful, and praise God. But, instead, in his fallen state, man rejects God, and changes the glory of God into an image made like corruptible man. It is not the fault of God that man rejects Him. The fault is in our wicked, evil, self-centered hearts, refusing to cry out to God for forgiveness and salvation. Fallen man loves the darkness, and will not of himself come to the True Light.



Some questions that I have which may help.

"God must first change his heart" -- What mechanism does God use to produce this change?


I do not think it is God's fault man rejects God either, I think it is man's fault however, your belief seems to be that only those God chooses to save are saved and the rest live on in ignorance until death unto hell. (Double predestination I think its called) I disagree with this.



The root of man's sin originates with Adam. From Adam every man, including Adam is cursed with spiritual death, and bondage to Satan and sin. This is why Scripture tells us we must be born again. Born not again of the flesh, as in Adam, but born of the Spirit.



"This is why Scripture tells us we must be born again. Born not again of the flesh, as in Adam, but born of the Spirit. " -- By what mechanism does God give new birth to men? How is this accomplished and perhaps more importantly what is the timing of this new birth?




Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Every man will continue to set his mind on the things of the flesh, and continue to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, with no ability to turn to Christ for life until/unless he/she is born again.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.




This kind of answers my question a bit, why we need to be born again, the stumbling block still is why does not God rebirth everyone? What is it that hinders or prevents God from giving this unto everyone? Surely God would prefer All men came to him and if I am to believe as you do, it would be that God has to bring them for them to come, what was the word, dragged to the cross kicking and screaming I am picturing in my mind right now?





Study these verses from Ezekiel in light of the proverb the children were using to claim they were righteous, and being blamed for the sins of their fathers. When you put the whole chapter into context you'll find it has nothing to do with being given ability to choose to turn to Christ for eternal life, but is an ultimatum from God to obey and live in the land of promise, or disobey and die!

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It's not the word "all" that concerns me. It's the italicized word "men" that should be discussed. Italicized words, as you probably already know, are added to aid in reading. Sometimes they can be very helpful, but other times they simply add to confusion that already exists.

Here in Jo 12:32 reads, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me." If we read this as though Christ is saying every single human will be drawn to Him, then we would have to agree with universalism, because every man drawn to Christ is drawn by God, and is saved. Therefore, the only way this verse can be interpreted is that "all" who are drawn to Him are also drawn by Him.



Butch, the verse tells us that even though the light shines in darkness, the darkness does not comprehend it. Clearly, those in darkness cannot comprehend the life that was given for the Light of men. [/left]



Here again we have a problem with italicized "men". Clearly if the darkness does not comprehend the Light, then every man is not given witness of the Light. But John does bear witness of the Light to "all" through Christ who believe.



Christ is the True Light to which John bear witness. The True Light lights every man that comes into the world. Does that mean that every man has ability to comprehend the Light, and that God draws every single person to Himself as you claim?

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you have rightly understood this passage, then how can the world, and even His own (Jews) neither know Him or receive Him? Christ says only those who receive Him are given the power to become sons of God, and these believe on His name and are born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man...but of God! Born of God!!! Salvation is of the Lord! None of man, all of Him!

Many Blessings,
RW

Lastly, John 1:12 says as many as receive him, by your way of thinking it sounds like your saying man cannot receive him unless God Enables him, that would seem to limit the scope of this passage more than is necessary in a straight raeding.

Yukerboy
Jan 28th 2009, 07:33 PM
It says by faith we receive the gift of grace not the gift of faith. Salvation is by God's grace to all who believe in Christ. Grace is a gift as we all deserve to go to hell, but through the faith in Christ God spares those who believe.

Scripture says faith come by hearing the word of God, hence the reason behind the great commission given by Jesus. It does not say God supernaturally opens certain peoples ears to here the word. Each person has to hear it and either receive it or reject it.

Hello wall....how you doing wall. Never mind the voice in the room that says "take Scripture at face value.

Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

From God to the born again...

1. Granted to believe.
2. Granted to suffer.

RogerW
Jan 28th 2009, 08:48 PM
It says by faith we receive the gift of grace not the gift of faith. Salvation is by God's grace to all who believe in Christ. Grace is a gift as we all deserve to go to hell, but through the faith in Christ God spares those who believe.

Greetings TF,

Let's look at the passage in Ephesians a little more closely. Paul tells us in vs 5 that when we are dead in sins we are made alive together with Christ, and this is by His grace. His grace is His grace, grace it is not a gift to us but His beneficial act in saving us.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

We know we are saved by His grace, now Paul shows us how this is accomplished. Read the passage without punctation. "Through faith and that", (and that being faith we receive by His grace) "not of yourselves the gift of God". What is not of yourselves the gift of God? Clearly "faith" for it would be absurd to think we can extend grace to ourselves.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God:

We find a similar verse in Ro 4. Read without punctation and added words. "Therefore of faith that by grace".

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all



Scripture says faith come by hearing the word of God, hence the reason behind the great commission given by Jesus. It does not say God supernaturally opens certain peoples ears to here the word. Each person has to hear it and either receive it or reject it.

If faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and it does, and all can hear, then determine for themselves whether to receive it or reject it...how could anyone reject it?

Either faith really does come by hearing the Word of God, therefore every man who hears the Word of God must be saved as the Word promises, and none will reject it. Or the Word is not true, because not everyone who hears the Word is able to hear and receive it.

Let me state it another way. Since the Word tells us faith comes by hearing the Word, why doesn't every man who hears the Word receive faith unto salvation? Isn't it true that some hear the Word, that is suppose to bring faith, and yet some men remain in unbelief because the Word is not mixed with faith to some who hear it?

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Anyone can "hear" the preached Word. But only His sheep will "hear" His voice and be saved. Only those given to hear His voice shall live.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

It is only in the last hour that every human will hear His voice, some to resurrection of life, and some to resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In this life it is only His sheep that hear His voice and follow Him. We hear His voice through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. All who are appointed to eternal life will "hear" and be given faith to believe unto salvation.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 28th 2009, 09:16 PM
One dictionary online defines faith as:

Mental acceptance of and confidence in a claim as truth without proof supporting the claim;

Webster's defines faith as:

faith
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
—Idiom
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

According to Strong's the word used in Romans 3:22 for faith is:

faith
Strong's Greek #4102
4102 pistis { pis’-tis}
from 3982; TDNT - 6:174, 849; n f
AV - faith 239, assurance 1, believe + 1537 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1; 244
GK - 4411 { πίστις }
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on

Faith is a response to what we have heard. Those who hear the message of the Gospel, those who are convicted and convinced of it thus respond in faith, and in so doing accept and receive the grace laid out by Christ.

Hi Veretax,

Of no doubt every human has faith. That we all have faith is not in question, but that we have saving faith most certainly is. As I have said in my last post to TF and won't repeat here, all can hear the message of the gospel, but it takes more than hearing the message, we must be given to hear His voice.

And the parable of the soils tells us that some can even believe (have faith) for a while, but unless the faith is supernatural, saving faith it will not endure unto salvation. I believe it is very common for man to hear the message of Christ without hearing His voice and even to believe without saving faith (parable of the soils).



You ask me where it comes from, and I tell you that all men understand faith. They just don't understand or are not enlightened to the truth that Christ is the only sure thing they can put their faith. Without faith even as natural men it would be impossible to have any security or trust in other men or women.

Again, I ask, from whence cometh this faith? If faith remains a natural faith that all men have and never becomes supernatural saving faith that only God can give, then "our" faith will not save us.



However, you want to argue that this faith comes from God. If in fact it does come from God and I'm not willing to say absolutely that it does not, it is given to all men and women because God himself has this attribute. When we were created in the likeness of God we were created with this ability called faith.

Indeed! Adam certainly had saving faith before he disobeyed God. But what happened to Adam after he disobeyed God? If he had continued to possess saving faith would he have tried to hide his sin from God? When Adam fell he plunged the whole human race into spiritual death/darkness. Both Adam and the whole human race became servants of Satan, sin and death. We cannot separate our natures from the seed from Adam. The likeness of God we were created in became lost, now we must re-created to be conformed to the image of His Son to have eternal life.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.




The issue then is not whether or not we have faith, but whether our faith is on the Solid rock and sure Foundation that is Christ or in corrupt ideas and things in the world. Only one is a Saving faith.

Our faith will never be saving faith. It is only through the gift of His like precious faith through the righteousness of God and our Savior, Jesus Christ that we obtain the faith that eternally saves us.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 11:15 PM
RogerW---Greetings Butch,

Jeremiah, like all men was born of flesh; i.e. the seed of Adam. Every man's lineage is traced back to Adam. God made the first human, Adam "very good", but Adam corrupted himself when he chose to disobey God. As a result Adam became a slave, in bondage to Satan, sin and death.


Since Jeremiah, and in fact every human, is of the seed of Adam, we, along with our first father, Adam are now born in this same bondage. This is why we read "were dead in trespasses and sins." If Jeremiah, and in fact every man is not elected to be saved, they will remain in this bondage without ever being given Spiritual life in Christ. They are born spiritually dead, separated from God and they will die spiritually dead, separated from God.

Christ came to destroy the works of the devil.

Nowhere, Does Scripture speak of spiritual death.


RogerW---Jeremiah was among the elect unto salvation, therefore God intervened in the life of Jeremiah, changing his heart and will that he could believe God and in faith obey what God has called him to do.

Can you show me where Scripture teaches this?




RogerW---Men will not come to Christ for life because man loves his sin more than he loves God. In his natural condition man's mind is set on the things of this physical world, and he will not of his own free will let go of the world's riches and turn to Christ. God must first change his heart to make him willing.

Can you show me where Scripture teaches this?


RogerW---It is not the fault of God, all men are without excuse. God has given every man enough knowledge of Him through creation and conscience that every man should be thankful, and praise God.

God has given every man enough knowledge of Him, yet the cannot come? How them is that enough knowledge?




RogerW---But, instead, in his fallen state, man rejects God, and changes the glory of God into an image made like corruptible man. It is not the fault of God that man rejects Him. The fault is in our wicked, evil, self-centered hearts, refusing to cry out to God for forgiveness and salvation.

The fault is in our evil, self-centered hearts? The ones that cannot cry out to God because they were not elect?




RogerW---The root of man's sin originates with Adam.

The root of man's sin originates in his heart, do I need to post he Scripture?



RogerW---From Adam every man, including Adam is cursed with spiritual death, and bondage to Satan and sin.

Please explain how it is Adam's fault


RogerW---Every man will continue to set his mind on the things of the flesh, and continue to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, with no ability to turn to Christ for life until/unless he/she is born again.

Again, can you show me where Scripture teaches this?



RogerW---Study these verses from Ezekiel in light of the proverb the children were using to claim they were righteous, and being blamed for the sins of their fathers. When you put the whole chapter into context you'll find it has nothing to do with being given ability to choose to turn to Christ for eternal life, but is an ultimatum from God to obey and live in the land of promise, or disobey and die!

When I put it in context? That's funny. However all we need to do is address what the Scripture says, the wicked turned to God.



RogerW---It's not the word "all" that concerns me. It's the italicized word "men" that should be discussed. Italicized words, as you probably already know, are added to aid in reading. Sometimes they can be very helpful, but other times they simply add to confusion that already exists.

The word men has no bearing on the verse, John says "all"


RogerW---Here in Jo 12:32 reads, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me." If we read this as though Christ is saying every single human will be drawn to Him, then we would have to agree with universalism, because every man drawn to Christ is drawn by God, and is saved. Therefore, the only way this verse can be interpreted is that "all" who are drawn to Him are also drawn by Him.

No we would not have to agree with universalism, you do because your presumption is incorrect. Scripture shows clearly that not all who are drawn are saved. So, since not all the drawn are saved, we can interpret the verse just as Jesus stated it, "I will draw all unto me."



RogerW---Butch, the verse tells us that even though the light shines in darkness, the darkness does not comprehend it. Clearly, those in darkness cannot comprehend the life that was given for the Light of men.

Not so, consider the Greek,

Title : Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G2638 καταλαμβάνω katalambanō Thayer Definition: 1) to lay hold of 1a) to lay hold of so as to make one’s own, to obtain, attain to, to make one’s own, to take into one’s self, appropriate 1b) to seize upon, take possession of 1b1) of evils overtaking one, of the last day overtaking the wicked with destruction, of a demon about to torment one 1b2) in a good sense, of Christ by his holy power and influence laying hold of the human mind and will, in order to prompt and govern it 1c) to detect, catch 1d) to lay hold of with the mind 1d1) to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend

Title : The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G2638. καταλαμβάνω katalambanō; fut. katalēpsomai, from kata (G2596), an intens., and lambanō (G2983), to take. To apprehend, attain, obtain, find. (I) To lay hold of, seize, with eagerness, suddenness (John 8:3, 4). Of an evil spirit which seizes, takes possession of a person (Mark 9:18). Figuratively of darkness or evil, to come suddenly upon someone (John 12:35; 1 Thess. 5:4; Sept.: Gen. 19:19; 31:23; 1 Kings 18:44). (II) In allusion to the public games, to obtain the prize with the idea of eager and strenuous exertion, to grasp, seize upon (Rom. 9:30; 1 Cor. 9:24; Phil. 3:12, 13, “for which very end I also have been taken hold of by Christ” [a.t.], v. 12). (III) Figuratively, to seize with the mind, to comprehend (John 1:5, the darkness did not admit or receive the light [cf. John 1:10-12; 3:19]). The darkness is here presented as being so thick that the light could not penetrate it. In the mid. to comprehend for oneself, perceive, find, followed by hoti (G3754), that (Acts 4:13; 10:34); by the inf. and its subject (Acts 25:25); by ti (G5101), what (Eph. 3:18).

I think the fact that comprehend is the last on the list, it is clear that there are more appropriate words, I think we can safely figure that John meant the darkness did not receive the light, which is in the context of the passage.


RogerW---Here again we have a problem with italicized "men". Clearly if the darkness does not comprehend the Light, then every man is not given witness of the Light. But John does bear witness of the Light to "all" through Christ who believe.

Again, comprehend its not a good choice of words, and ohn explicitly states that Christ lights "every man the comes into the world, and man is not italicized.




RogerW---Christ is the True Light to which John bear witness. The True Light lights every man that comes into the world. Does that mean that every man has ability to comprehend the Light, and that God draws every single person to Himself as you claim?

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you have rightly understood this passage, then how can the world, and even His own (Jews) neither know Him or receive Him? Christ says only those who receive Him are given the power to become sons of God, and these believe on His name and are born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man...but of God! Born of God!!! Salvation is of the Lord! None of man, all of Him!


His own knew Him not, because He didn't come as they expected, they didn't receive Him because they chose not to. Verse 13 speaks of Christ not those who believe on His name. Those who believed on Him, were they born of the flesh? Were they born of the will of man? Were they born of Blood? I think the answer to all of those questions is yes, yet John is speaking of one who is not born of these. Was Christ, born of blood? No. Was He born of the will of the flesh? No. Was He born of the will of man? No, Was He born of God? Yes.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 11:22 PM
Greetings TF,

Let's look at the passage in Ephesians a little more closely. Paul tells us in vs 5 that when we are dead in sins we are made alive together with Christ, and this is by His grace. His grace is His grace, grace it is not a gift to us but His beneficial act in saving us.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

We know we are saved by His grace, now Paul shows us how this is accomplished. Read the passage without punctation. "Through faith and that", (and that being faith we receive by His grace) "not of yourselves the gift of God". What is not of yourselves the gift of God? Clearly "faith" for it would be absurd to think we can extend grace to ourselves.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God:

We find a similar verse in Ro 4. Read without punctation and added words. "Therefore of faith that by grace".

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all



If faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and it does, and all can hear, then determine for themselves whether to receive it or reject it...how could anyone reject it?

Either faith really does come by hearing the Word of God, therefore every man who hears the Word of God must be saved as the Word promises, and none will reject it. Or the Word is not true, because not everyone who hears the Word is able to hear and receive it.

Let me state it another way. Since the Word tells us faith comes by hearing the Word, why doesn't every man who hears the Word receive faith unto salvation? Isn't it true that some hear the Word, that is suppose to bring faith, and yet some men remain in unbelief because the Word is not mixed with faith to some who hear it?

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Anyone can "hear" the preached Word. But only His sheep will "hear" His voice and be saved. Only those given to hear His voice shall live.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

It is only in the last hour that every human will hear His voice, some to resurrection of life, and some to resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In this life it is only His sheep that hear His voice and follow Him. We hear His voice through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. All who are appointed to eternal life will "hear" and be given faith to believe unto salvation.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Many Blessings,
RW

It is the salvation, that is the gift of God, which is being spoken of in this verse.

RogerW
Jan 29th 2009, 12:47 AM
Roger,

Some questions that I have which may help.

"God must first change his heart" -- What mechanism does God use to produce this change?

Hi Veretax,

Sorry I missed this reply earlier.

It is by preaching the gospel of salvation that man's hearts are changed. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God (Ro 10:17). But not every man hearing the gospel will be saved...why? Scripture tells us that the Word was preached to the Hebrews, but it was not mixed with faith in some of them that heard. Therefore they did not enter into His rest. But to those who believed (to have faith) they did enter into His rest, just as He had promised. (Heb 4) What was the difference?

Faith is suppose to come by hearing the Word of God, but some who heard remained in unbelief...why? Because they had not been given the gift of saving faith (Eph 2:5,8,9). Those given the gift of faith, are made accepted in the beloved and are those who have been blessed with spiritual blessing in Christ, because He has chosen them in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love. These were predestinated unto adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. Not our faith, but the good pleasure of His will.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



I do not think it is God's fault man rejects God either, I think it is man's fault however, your belief seems to be that only those God chooses to save are saved and the rest live on in ignorance until death unto hell. (Double predestination I think its called) I disagree with this.

I do not support the doctrine of double predestination. There is nothing double about predestination. To be predestined means to be chosen to receive eternal life, not damnation. In fact if Christ had not predestined some men to be saved than no man would be saved. Every man born in Adam is guilty before God and in bondage to sin and death. We would all be condemned to the lake of fire, and God's glorious creation would be forever lost...IF God does not save some men.



"This is why Scripture tells us we must be born again. Born not again of the flesh, as in Adam, but born of the Spirit. " -- By what mechanism does God give new birth to men? How is this accomplished and perhaps more importantly what is the timing of this new birth?

Exactly! Unless we are born again through the power of the Word applied by the Holy Spirit, we cannot be saved. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (Jo 1:13)



This kind of answers my question a bit, why we need to be born again, the stumbling block still is why does not God rebirth everyone? What is it that hinders or prevents God from giving this unto everyone? Surely God would prefer All men came to him and if I am to believe as you do, it would be that God has to bring them for them to come, what was the word, dragged to the cross kicking and screaming I am picturing in my mind right now?

This is one of the most difficult things for us to accept...God has always had a predestined, elect number of people whom He has chosen from before the foundation of the world to receive eternal life. Paul anticipates the difficulty we might have with this and says we have no right to question God. Man is God's creation, and He has the authority to extend mercy and compassion to whosoever He will.

Nobody can say "it is God's fault I am being condemned, because He never chose me for salvation." What we MUST say instead is, "Thank you heavenly Father for choosing to save me from the wrath I deserve. I did nothing to merit your saving grace, but I will eternally bless you for showing me your love and mercy."

If God does not choose to save some people, then His creation was for nothing, for every man will die in their sins and be eternally condemned. God chooses based on nothing of merit or worth He sees in us, for there are none righteous. He simply chooses whosoever He wills so that His creation will once again be a glorious creation filled with all goodness and love, and most importantly without sin and evil.



Lastly, John 1:12 says as many as receive him, by your way of thinking it sounds like your saying man cannot receive him unless God Enables him, that would seem to limit the scope of this passage more than is necessary in a straight raeding.

When you consider that saving faith comes by hearing the Word, and yet many who hear the Word remain in unbelief, and that faith is a gift of God that no man may boast, it becomes apparent that God must change our minds, hearts and wills enabling us to turn to Christ for life before any man can be born again.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 29th 2009, 12:51 AM
It is the salvation, that is the gift of God, which is being spoken of in this verse.

I agree! Salvation is the whole gift of God's grace through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Jan 29th 2009, 03:27 PM
It is not faith "in" Christ that saves us. We are saved by grace "through" faith that is not our own...(((faith is NOT our own))), but the gift of God that no man may boast.John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 5:1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

John146
Jan 29th 2009, 04:07 PM
Greetings Eric,

Was God unfair when He condemned the whole creation in the flood?Of course not.


Was it God's fault they were condemned or their own wickedness?Their own wickedness, of course.


Why did only Noah find grace in the eyes of the LORD (Ge 6:8)? In finding grace from the LORD, is Noah declared righteous because he is more deserving than all other men? Because Noah had faith.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


What about God's choosing only one small nation in all the world to extend His love and mercy upon? Was the nation more deserving than other peoples of the earth? Was God unfair to choose only them and rejecting all the other peoples of the earth? We're talking about eternal salvation and damnation here, Roger. He didn't choose Israel as a nation to be saved. Obviously, not all of them were saved as only a remnant was saved in Paul's day (Rom 11:5).


Try looking at it from the perspective of God's great love, grace, mercy and compassion, instead of looking at it from the perspective that God is unfair if He does not give every man the "chance" to be saved. Every man is without excuse because every man, born of Adam, refuses the light they have been given through creation, and conscience. Try looking at it from the perspective of what scripture teaches regarding God's character. Scripture teaches that God is impartial, equal and not a respecter of persons. Your doctrine says that He is partial, unequal and a respecter of persons. The following passages show that God wants all people to turn from their wickedness and be saved while your doctrine says that He only wants a select few to be saved.

Ezekiel 18
23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


None are righteous, no not one, none seek God!!! That's right. With no intervention from God, man would not seek God. But that's only half of the story. God has intervened by giving the world His Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God calls people through the preaching of the Word and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. But people are required to willfully respond with repentance and faith and that is a choice that people have to make.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

You try to say that some are not able to seek God. That isn't what scripture teaches. If that was the case, then it would make no sense for God to call people that can't respond. People won't just seek God on their own volition but if they hear the word and feel the conviction of the Spirit then every person has the ability to respond to that calling with repentance and faith. But not everyone does. Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14).


It is not God's fault that man is fallen...God created man very good! God says He will have mercy and compassion on whom He wills.Right. But scripture teaches us who God wills to have mercy and compassion on.

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


We can challenge God in our ignorance, asking why He would choose to save some, while leaving the rest in unbelief. However it is not our place to question the Almighty.Where does it say this in terms of eternal salvation vs. eternal damnation? Nowhere that I can find.


Therefore we must, in great gratitude and love thank God for choosing to save any men, otherwise every man would be condemned, because every man is born of the seed of Adam, dead in trespasses and sins. Left in this condition, man by nature will not come to Christ for life. God must intevene, making them willing if any man will be saved.

Are we overjoyed that God has chosen to save His creation (whole world) by electing some people to eternal life? Are we not people of gratitude, knowing that if God does not save some men, then all of creation would be lost, and no man would be saved?

Many Blessings,
RWI am overjoyed that God is impartial and desires all people to be saved and because of that was gracious enough to make a way for all people to be saved by sending His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:15-16).

Veretax
Jan 29th 2009, 04:15 PM
Excellent Post John, I totally agree.


If God had not intervened in the world (which I believe he is even to this day), Man would continue on in sin, die and be destined for eternal judgment, but that's not what happened, God Sent Christ even while we were all Sinners so that who soever will hear his Words and Believe upon him who raised Christ from the Dead would be saved.


I've not seen any passage that says anything to the idea of. Salvation is to them that believe, but only those he chose will believe. I'm not aware of any passage that says anything remotely like it. The passages talking about election are often separate from the concept of believing in him unto salvation.

RogerW
Jan 30th 2009, 12:12 AM
That's right. With no intervention from God, man would not seek God. But that's only half of the story. God has intervened by giving the world His Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God calls people through the preaching of the Word and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. But people are required to willfully respond with repentance and faith and that is a choice that people have to make.


Hi Eric,

I'm trying to understand your position, but I'm having a difficult time getting my mind around your concept of free will.

Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

What I hear you saying is, God intervenes by giving the world His Word, and faith comes by hearing the Word, and God calls people through preaching and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. From this you say people must willfully respond with repentance and faith and that is a choice people have to make.

If God intervenes and faith comes by hearing the Word, and God calls us through preaching and convicts us by the power of the Holy Spirit...who would willfully, or rather who could willfully reject Him? God's intervention brings faith through His Word and conviction by the power of the Holy Spirit...meaning we have been born again. But you believe we can willfully choose to reject Christ and refuse to repent after God has done a supernatural work in our hearts????

You seem to want God to be Sovereign, but at the same time you don't want to let go of a supposed free will that would rob God His Soverignty.

The first verse I quoted above (Ro 6:20) tells us that when we are servants of sin (which we all are before salvation), we are free from righteousness. That means righteousness has no influence over us before we are saved, we are devoted entirely to sin.

The second verse I quoted (Jo 8:36) tells us we are not free from the bondage of sin until the Son delivers us from the bondage and dominion of sin.

The last verse I quoted (Jo 1:13) tells us we cannot become children of God by our natural birth, or because we are Jews, or because we are born into religion or a very pious, upright family. The new birth is the beginning of spiritual life. Before, the sinner is dead in sins, now he is made spiritually alive. Not of blood, means not of man. Not by natural generation. Not by our fallen will, flesh, mind, desire. It is not by any human power that men become children of God.

Just as you acknowledge, it is God Who produces the change. The heart is changed by the power of God. It is true that no man is renewed who does not desire and will to be a believer; for the effect of the change is on his will (Ps 110:3 ..."Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power"). Salvation if of the Lord! None of man, all of God.

Eric to be free means to be totally unrestrained, a servant to none. God alone is truly free, and we are not free until the Son makes us free indeed.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jan 30th 2009, 12:28 AM
Excellent Post John, I totally agree.
If God had not intervened in the world (which I believe he is even to this day), Man would continue on in sin, die and be destined for eternal judgment, but that's not what happened, God Sent Christ even while we were all Sinners so that who soever will hear his Words and Believe upon him who raised Christ from the Dead would be saved.

Greetings Veretax,

Whosoever will hear His Word and believe on Him? "There are none righteous, no, not one, there is none that seek after God".



I've not seen any passage that says anything to the idea of. Salvation is to them that believe, but only those he chose will believe. I'm not aware of any passage that says anything remotely like it. The passages talking about election are often separate from the concept of believing in him unto salvation.

Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


Many Blessings,
RW

TrustingFollower
Jan 30th 2009, 02:03 AM
Hello wall....how you doing wall. Never mind the voice in the room that says "take Scripture at face value.

Since this thread is degrading to the point of disrespectful jabs at fellow believer this is now being closed. Everyone needs to keep the words of Jesus in mind while posting on this website.

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. (35) By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."