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chad
Jan 22nd 2009, 08:01 AM
I was just wanting to know what you all thought regarding the curses mentioned in the OT. There are alot of verses regarding curses in the OT. My question do these curses still apply to us today?

I sort of have an answer already, but I was just wondering what other people thought.



Thanks


Chad.

VerticalReality
Jan 22nd 2009, 01:27 PM
Paul says that if a person walks according to the flesh then they are under law. Therefore, if they are under law they are indeed subject to curses. The only way to be free of those curses is to walk in the Spirit.

chad
Jan 22nd 2009, 05:59 PM
Hi Vertical Reality,

Thanks for your reply,

I was reading a book on blessings and cursings, and it referred to alot of curses in the old testament, and I was wondering if they applied to us today.

For Example: Deuteronomy 27:15-26; Deut 28:16-20 lists some of the curses. One of them is.

(Deu 27:15 NIV) "Cursed is the man who carves an image or casts an idol--a thing detestable to the LORD, the work of the craftsman's hands--and sets it up in secret." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"




Paul says that if a person walks according to the flesh then they are under law. Therefore, if they are under law they are indeed subject to curses. The only way to be free of those curses is to walk in the Spirit.

Kahtar
Jan 22nd 2009, 06:54 PM
Chad, if you carve some image (ie buddha), set it on the mantle and begin worshipping it, do you think you will be blessed, or cursed, by such action?

Benaiah
Jan 22nd 2009, 08:01 PM
The sections of Deuteronomy you are quoting have to do with the blessings and the curses God declared over the children of Israel. if they kept his covenant they would receive the blessings in the covenant, if they broke it, they would instead be subject to the curses of the covenant.

The experiences of the Jewish people for the last 2000 years attests to the validity of those curses.


Deu 28:63 "And it shall be, that just as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
Deu 28:64 "Then the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known; wood and stone.
Deu 28:65 "And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul.
Deu 28:66 "Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life.
Deu 28:67 "In the morning you shall say, 'Oh, that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, 'Oh, that it were morning!' because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see.

Emanate
Jan 22nd 2009, 08:17 PM
The sections of Deuteronomy you are quoting have to do with the blessings and the curses God declared over the children of Israel. if they kept his covenant they would receive the blessings in the covenant, if they broke it, they would instead be subject to the curses of the covenant.

The experiences of the Jewish people for the last 200 years atessts to the validity of those curses.


I am sure you mean 2000, which is still a conservative timeframe.

Benaiah
Jan 22nd 2009, 08:31 PM
I am sure you mean 2000, which is still a conservative timeframe.

Thank you, and yes I meant 2000. of course Israel suffered for periods before but I used the last 2000 years as the best example since it represents the longest uninterrupted period they have suffered.

chad
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:47 AM
They Wouldn'y apply today though, becuase we are under a different covenant :confused


The sections of Deuteronomy you are quoting have to do with the blessings and the curses God declared over the children of Israel. if they kept his covenant they would receive the blessings in the covenant, if they broke it, they would instead be subject to the curses of the covenant.

The experiences of the Jewish people for the last 2000 years attests to the validity of those curses.

Kahtar
Jan 23rd 2009, 12:19 PM
They Wouldn'y apply today though, becuase we are under a different covenant :confusedI'll ask again. If you made an idol and started worshipping it, today, would God bless you or currse you because of it?

Benaiah
Jan 23rd 2009, 01:55 PM
They Wouldn'y apply today though, becuase we are under a different covenant :confused

it applies until they repent.

chad
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:32 PM
I was wondering about this because of what it written in Galatians.


(Gal 3:10 NIV) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

(Gal 3:11 NIV) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

(Gal 3:12 NIV) The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

(Gal 3:13 NIV) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

(Gal 3:14 NIV) He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Chad :confused

Kahtar
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:18 PM
(Gal 3:10 NIV) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."Okay, let's see. 'Love God with all your heart, soul and strength' is part of the law. If we do that, we come under the curse of the law, according to your understanding. So we should not love God with all our heart, soul and strength. Nor should we love our neighbor, etc.
Now of course that doesn't make sense, so look at what the verse says. 'All who rely on.......'. What is the purpose of relying on the law? For righteousness, right? But Paul says not to do that. Why? Because righteousness does not come by obedience to the law, but by faith in Christ. But Paul does not say to not obey the law. He only says don't rely on it for righteousness.
Again I ask, if you make an idol and start worshipping it, is God going to bless you or curse you?


(Gal 3:11 NIV) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."True, no one is justified by the law (made righteous by the law) because righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works. So love God and your neighbor not for justification or righteousness, but because it's the right thing to do, and because the Holy Spirit has written that upon your heart to do.
Be a doer of the Word, and not a hearer only.


(Gal 3:13 NIV) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." What is the curse of the law? It is death. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law that says all who sin must die. He died in our place, thus taking that curse from us. He's not saying that Christ took the law from us, only the curse of the law, which is death.

chad
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:38 PM
Hi Kahtar,

Mathew 22:37-39 NIV
(37) Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' (38) This is the first and greatest commandment. (39) And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Regarding Idols - Paul writes

(1 Cor 8:4 NIV) So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.

(1 Cor 10:19 NIV) Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything?

(1 Cor 10:20 NIV) No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

(1 Cor 10:21 NIV) You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.


[quote=Kahtar;1956223]Okay, let's see. 'Love God with all your heart, soul and strength' is part of the law. If we do that, we come under the curse of the law, according to your understanding. So we should not love God with all our heart, soul and strength. Nor should we love our neighbor, etc.
Now of course that doesn't make sense, so look at what the verse says. 'All who rely on.......'. What is the purpose of relying on the law? For righteousness, right? But Paul says not to do that. Why? Because righteousness does not come by obedience to the law, but by faith in Christ. But Paul does not say to not obey the law. He only says don't rely on it for righteousness.
Again I ask, if you make an idol and start worshipping it, is God going to bless you or curse you?

Kahtar
Jan 23rd 2009, 10:00 PM
Thank you for those very familiar scriptures. Didn't quite catch your answer out of that though.

chad
Jan 23rd 2009, 10:19 PM
Hi Kahtar,

To answer your questions...

[quote=Kahtar;1956223]Okay, let's see. 'Love God with all your heart, soul and strength' is part of the law. If we do that, we come under the curse of the law, according to your understanding.

Answer: No, becuase Jesus commanded us in Mathew 22:37-39 to 'Love God with all your heart, soul and strength' and to 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Again I ask, if you make an idol and start worshipping it, is God going to bless you or curse you?

Answer: If you are a born again believer, why would you want to make an idol and start worshipping it? It makes no sense at all.

Kahtar
Jan 24th 2009, 12:03 AM
Answer: If you are a born again believer, why would you want to make an idol and start worshipping it? It makes no sense at all.You are absolutely correct. If you are a born again believer, God has written His law upon your heart, thus you don't WANT to, and it wouldn't make sense to do it.
But that's kinda the point. You obey that law that prohibits that activity because that law is in your heart, placed there by the Holy Spirit.
So you see, you are indeed obeying that law. Now tell me, because you DO obey that law, from your heart, will God curse you because you are obeying the law? That doesn't make sense either, does it?

When Paul said those who rely on the law come under the curse of it, he was pointing out that the law cannot save us or make us righteous, and trying to rely on the law for righteousness will only prove that we are not able to consistently obey all the law, and in our disobedience, we come under the curse of the law. The curse of the law is not gained by obeying the law, but rather by disobeying it.
We who are saved know we cannot keep the law perfectly, and we know that THAT is the very reason Christ came. Now we can live according to the law written in our hearts, without the fear of failure, or of the curse of the law, because the curse has been paid in our behalf.
We of course will fail, time and time again. But we can walk in peace and joy knowing that those failures are already paid for.

chad
Jan 24th 2009, 12:33 AM
Hi Kahtar,

Although God does write laws on our heart, my thoughts on why I would not make an idol and worship it come from 1 Cor 8:4 rather than God writing it on my heart as a law.

(1 Cor 8:4 NIV) So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.

An Idol is a image of a foreign/false God.

So why, as a Born again believer would I want to make a image of a false God and worship it, when we have the true God to worship. It does not make sense to me.



You are absolutely correct. If you are a born again believer, God has written His law upon your heart, thus you don't WANT to, and it wouldn't make sense to do it.
But that's kinda the point. You obey that law that prohibits that activity because that law is in your heart, placed there by the Holy Spirit.
So you see, you are indeed obeying that law. Now tell me, because you DO obey that law, from your heart, will God curse you because you are obeying the law? That doesn't make sense either, does it?

When Paul said those who rely on the law come under the curse of it, he was pointing out that the law cannot save us or make us righteous, and trying to rely on the law for righteousness will only prove that we are not able to consistently obey all the law, and in our disobedience, we come under the curse of the law. The curse of the law is not gained by obeying the law, but rather by disobeying it.
We who are saved know we cannot keep the law perfectly, and we know that THAT is the very reason Christ came. Now we can live according to the law written in our hearts, without the fear of failure, or of the curse of the law, because the curse has been paid in our behalf.
We of course will fail, time and time again. But we can walk in peace and joy knowing that those failures are already paid for.