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mikebr
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:04 AM
Five Fundamentals

1. The inspiration and the inerrancy of the Bible.
2. The deity of Christ. (Appendage: The virgin birth of Christ).
3. The substitutionary death of Christ.
4. The physical resurrection of Christ.
5. The physical return of Christ to the earth.

Certain people around these parts have suggested that certain beliefs can send you to hell. If a person believes these five fundamentals do they have to believe anything else to make it to heaven?

Works aside.;) Just beliefs please.

Joe King
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:37 AM
Mike, they do have to be born again and repent to complete salvation IMO.

Slug1
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:44 AM
I will agree with Joe... many believe 1-5 but haven't received Christ into their heart and began a relationship. Some may even go all their lives believing 1-5 and never receive and walk with Christ in any sort of relationship.

mikebr
Jan 23rd 2009, 01:08 PM
Mike, they do have to be born again and repent to complete salvation IMO.



I will agree with Joe... many believe 1-5 but haven't received Christ into their heart and began a relationship. Some may even go all their lives believing 1-5 and never receive and walk with Christ in any sort of relationship.

I made that assumption (in my mind) yet I didn't make that clear.

So lets say you are saved, born again, washed in the blood, etc.

Are you folks suggesting that I don't have to believe any of those things if I am born again and have repented of my sin?

always
Jan 23rd 2009, 01:50 PM
How does one BELIEVE those five fundamentals without repenting, they have to confess with their mouths that they believe these things. :hmm: their walk may not be where it should be but none of us have a walk that's where it should be

Sandusky
Jan 23rd 2009, 01:53 PM
I made that assumption (in my mind) yet I didn't make that clear.

So lets say you are saved, born again, washed in the blood, etc.

Are you folks suggesting that I don't have to believe any of those things if I am born again and have repented of my sin?

It may be more that if you want to go to Heaven and be a good Christian you need to just accept these things as Truth. It shouldn't be a problem, in other words.

No, the beliefs themselves can't save you...but if someone actively rejects any of them, that's indicative of a serious problem with your faith IMO.

mikebr
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:00 PM
Five Fundamentals

1. The inspiration and the inerrancy of the Bible.
2. The deity of Christ. (Appendage: The virgin birth of Christ).
3. The substitutionary death of Christ.
4. The physical resurrection of Christ.
5. The physical return of Christ to the earth.

Certain people around these parts have suggested that certain beliefs can send you to hell. If a person believes these five fundamentals do they have to believe anything else to make it to heaven?

Works aside.;) Just beliefs please.

I must not be making myself clear!

If a person believes THESE and HAS REPENTED. DO they have to believe anything else?

Its either yes............................................... ...

or

no................................................ .


Do they have to believe in the Trinity for example?

I do by the way.

Do they have to believe in Eternal Consious Torment?

No sure I do! I'm currently agnostic about it.:hmm:

Walstib
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:09 PM
Certain people around these parts have suggested that certain beliefs can send you to hell. If a person believes these five fundamentals do they have to believe anything else to make it to heaven?

Certain people around these parts believe these as well as crazy things like predetermined genetic damnation.

There is nothing new under the sun.

People who have never seen a bible nor can read may know nothing about #1 but have heard of Jesus and enter into a personal relationship with Him. Or have never heard about #5 and just are content with worshiping Jesus now.

A list could be one point long or 1000 points long and I don't know as it could ever box in every way someone has a personal relationship with Jesus or will end up in heaven.

God knows the heart and will judge justly, I mean.... how many fetuses believe all the points on that list? *no answer needed

Can believing a specific thing not on the list send you to hell? Only God can send you to hell and everyone who justly should go there will go there. Me thinks.

Peace,
Joe


Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I know nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God. (1Co 4:1-5 NKJV)

Old Earther
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:36 PM
mikebr,

Faith in Christ has nothing to do with beliving this or that proposition. Faith is a matter of the heart, not the head. To answer your question, none of those 5 "fundamentals" needs to be believed in order for one to have faith in Chist.

RabbiKnife
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:45 PM
I have often been accused of not being "fun" and being "mental," so I don't know if I am a fundamentalist or not.

There is only one thing that you have to believe to be saved...that Jesus provides for your righteousness as a free gift.

You don't have to have any other theology.

Yukerboy
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:47 PM
Since we are picking and choosing and we are granting that all "works" required are fulfilled, I believe that points 2 and 4 are a must for everyone who is born again.

Joe King
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:05 PM
I made that assumption (in my mind) yet I didn't make that clear.

So lets say you are saved, born again, washed in the blood, etc.

Are you folks suggesting that I don't have to believe any of those things if I am born again and have repented of my sin?

No,because Jesus said to believe that he is the Son of God and you will be saved.

Old Earther
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:26 PM
joe king, what does it mean to believe jesus is the son of God? Do demons believe this?

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:37 PM
Old Earther.....
Yes the devils 'believe' and tremble....

thou believest there is one God.. thou doest well.. the devils also believe and tremble....

and to respond to the OP... I do not call myself a fundamentalist.. even though you posted those characteristics.. I 'know' I've been saved and I'm a Born Again Christian by the Will of God... Born from Above.... and not the will of men....

and those 5 'beliefs'... I know are 'true' because I abide in Him and my belief is in Him... not the doctrine alone... like was mentioned by Old Earther.. the 'devils' believe and tremble.. It's because we abide in Him that we 'know' these are true.. doctrine or Scripture without abiding in Him.. well.. its just that.. Abiding in Him makes the Scripture 'come alive'.. and from here we know those are True...

In Heaven you wil not find divisions.. titles or labels for His own...

so I will respond with a 'no'...

I don't want to overthrow this Thread in respect to the OP...

Thank you for the dialogue TBD

Emanate
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:49 PM
I have often been accused of not being "fun" and being "mental," so I don't know if I am a fundamentalist or not.

There is only one thing that you have to believe to be saved...that Jesus provides for your righteousness as a free gift.

You don't have to have any other theology.


I am going to have to go with the mentalist here. It is not our doctine that saves. It is the finished work of Messiah that provides our righteousness and our salvationm, not our correct beliefs.

mikebr
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:20 PM
So people who believe that hell might not be eternal can still be saved?

People who don't believe in the trinity, rapture, etc?

Emanate
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:22 PM
So people who believe that hell might not be eternal can still be saved?

People who don't believe in the trinity, rapture, etc?


Yes, It is not our doctrines that save.

Izdaari
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:26 PM
Five Fundamentals

1. The inspiration and the inerrancy of the Bible.
2. The deity of Christ. (Appendage: The virgin birth of Christ).
3. The substitutionary death of Christ.
4. The physical resurrection of Christ.
5. The physical return of Christ to the earth.

Certain people around these parts have suggested that certain beliefs can send you to hell. If a person believes these five fundamentals do they have to believe anything else to make it to heaven?

Works aside.;) Just beliefs please.
Yes, I believe those five fundamentals. However, even though I do, I don't call myself a Fundamentalist. That's because people would think I subscribe also to the culture of American Fundamentalism, which contains SO much more than just those five fundamentals that I don't agree with.

However, I think only #2 and #4 of that list, along with repentance, are necessary for salvation. I take that from Romans 10:9-10 (HCSB):

9 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

Calling Jesus "Lord" would seem to imply accepting his deity, and repentance as well. And Paul explicitly mentions believing in the resurrection. But none of the other five come in at all.

markedward
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:35 PM
Yes, It is not our doctrines that save.This is precisely true:

If a person was condemned just because they had one or more doctrines wrong regarding the "non-fundamentals" (things that are not made explicit in Scripture), we would all be condemned because not a single one of us has everything right. I don't believe in a "pre-trib rapture". A lot of people here do. Does that mean I'm going to be condemned if I'm wrong, or all of them are going to be condemned if I'm right? Doubt it.

There are a certain few things (I would say) that a person must believe in order to be saved (e.g., Christ came in the flesh; Christ is the only begotten Son of God; Christ was crucified; Christ was resurrected; Christ takes away sin). But eternal-torment vs. annihilation? I've heard good arguments both ways. YEC vs. OEC? As much as I disbelieve OEC, it's not going to condemn someone.

In the cases of those, if it is a sin to believe them, it would be oxymoronic to say someone is condemned for them. Either Christ's salvation covers all sins of a person who believes in Him (including a few wrong doctrines), or it doesn't.

Joe King
Jan 23rd 2009, 04:40 PM
joe king, what does it mean to believe jesus is the son of God? Do demons believe this?

I was adding to previous posts. There is more to it than that.

Sandusky
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:45 PM
So people who believe that hell might not be eternal can still be saved?

People who don't believe in the trinity, rapture, etc?

Hm, the rapture doesn't belong there next to the Trinity, does it? ;)

navigator
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:32 PM
When I think about it in a simple form, I am reminded of the thief on the cross.
He very likely knew very little about the Word or much of the teaching. A lot of the theological beliefs likely hadn't even been recorded yet.

He knew 2 things, that he was a sinner deserving of death and that Jesus was innocent dying for him. He confessed his sins to Christ by asking Jesus to remember him. Jesus said he would meet him in Heaven. The Bible doesn't say he was baptized or speak tongues but he did preach a powerful message.

It doesn't take a lot, I think sometimes we make it too difficult.
I think the key is 1. Is the person really saved. I believe that if someone is really saved, when they study the Bible and see something that differs from what they have believed in the past, they will change their belief. If after much prayerful consideration the person doesn't change that belief then they might not really be saved.

Where we run into some trouble is where things in the scripture aren't exactly spelled out verbatim and different folks make different interpretations of those things to try to prove their point, that is why we have so many denominations.

Libre
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:40 PM
Here's my 2 cents. I was saved when I met Jesus. I didn't know anything about doctrine. Except that I saw Him and knew He was real and I said Yes to Him. That was 34 years ago. Must have took, eh?

uric3
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:12 PM
I think their is more to it than just believing those fundamental things. Just look at Matt 7:21-23 which states:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I think its quite clear here that only those that do the will of the Father will get to enter into the Kingdom of heaven... obviously from the passage above just doing "something" doesn't cut it. It must be what God wants and ask for...

Libre
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:33 PM
It's one thing to call someone Lord, and quite another to know Him as the Lord.

What is the will of the Father?

"All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:37-40)

mikebr
Jan 23rd 2009, 11:49 PM
Hm, the rapture doesn't belong there next to the Trinity, does it? ;)

Its according to you position on dispensationalism:lol:


I was just throwing some things out that get us going. I didn't mention OSAS and NON-OSAS. That brings em out of the woodwork. Opps.........:lol::lol::rofl::rofl:

There goes this thread.

I have been a Christian for 41 years and have had people tell me that I am going to hell because about 4 or 5 years ago I started questioning the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment.

mikebr
Jan 23rd 2009, 11:51 PM
I think their is more to it than just believing those fundamental things. Just look at Matt 7:21-23 which states:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I think its quite clear here that only those that do the will of the Father will get to enter into the Kingdom of heaven... obviously from the passage above just doing "something" doesn't cut it. It must be what God wants and ask for...



Works aside.

me in the original post.

Psalms Fan
Jan 24th 2009, 12:20 AM
So people who believe that hell might not be eternal can still be saved?

People who don't believe in the trinity, rapture, etc?

How does one justify that Trinity NOT being on that list?


Hm, the rapture doesn't belong there next to the Trinity, does it? ;)

No, it most certainly does not.

And who made that list? Why 5? Why those particular 5?

markedward
Jan 24th 2009, 12:28 AM
How does one justify that Trinity NOT being on that list?I would say because a "hypostasis" is not explicit in Scripture. It's something that man has to reason out.

Again, point to the thief on the cross; did he even know about the concept of the trinity when Christ declared him saved?

Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 12:42 AM
Five Fundamentals

1. The inspiration and the inerrancy of the Bible.
2. The deity of Christ. (Appendage: The virgin birth of Christ).
3. The substitutionary death of Christ.
4. The physical resurrection of Christ.
5. The physical return of Christ to the earth.

Certain people around these parts have suggested that certain beliefs can send you to hell. If a person believes these five fundamentals do they have to believe anything else to make it to heaven?

Works aside.;) Just beliefs please.

No, they do not need to believe in anything else to make it to heaven.

Psalms Fan
Jan 24th 2009, 12:45 AM
I would say because a "hypostasis" is not explicit in Scripture. It's something that man has to reason out.

Again, point to the thief on the cross; did he even know about the concept of the trinity when Christ declared him saved?

If that question is to me specifically:

I in no way believe that a list of doctrines saves a person. A certain level of understanding of a set of facts is in no way a prerequisite to God saving a person. Christ Himself and His work on the cross saves a person. Can a person not understand exactly who Christ is in order to believe in Him and repent? I certainly believe so. Does a person need to grow in submission to God's revelation of Himself as he/she grows as a christian? I definitely believe so.

I'm sure the thief on the cross probably had little to no knowledge of God as triune. But God granted Him repentance and genuine faith, regardless of His understanding.

Libre
Jan 24th 2009, 12:51 AM
The reason we have to believe that He is the Son of God and died for our sins and so on is that we won't know Him as Lord and savior if we do not know who He is and what He did. He'd just be another man.

The Parson
Jan 24th 2009, 12:57 AM
I'm going to be looking at this thread with a peaked interest. Welcome to all the new members I see in the thread by the way.

Old Earther
Jan 24th 2009, 02:43 AM
I'm going to be looking at this thread with a peaked interest.


You mean "piqued interest"?

mikebr
Jan 24th 2009, 02:52 AM
You mean "piqued interest"?


What? so now we have an English teacher? :idea:

Maybe his peeking from the peak piqued his interest.:rofl::lol:

Old Earther
Jan 24th 2009, 02:56 AM
Maybe his peeking from the peak piqued his interest


:lol:

He is a lofty fella, isn't he?

TrustGzus
Jan 24th 2009, 03:08 PM
If we look at the five beliefs listed, not only is the Trinity not mentioned, neither is monotheism. So a polytheist could be a fundamentalist and so could Sabellius (the original oneness theologian).