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reformedct
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:44 PM
hey everyone once again im just trying to learn more about the Bible. lets try to keep it unbiased and peaceful:P

Here is my question: i was looking at the word foreknew in Romans 8:29

this is what i got in greek:


4267. proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko)

4268 >> (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4268.htm)

foreknow, know before προγινώσκοντές (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm) προέγνω (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm) προεγνωσμένου (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)

From pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm) and ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm); to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee -- foreknow (ordain), know (before).
see GREEK pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm)
see GREEK ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm)
προγινώσκοντές (proginōskontes) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm)
προέγνω (proegnō) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm)

προεγνωσμένου (proegnōsmenou) − 1 Occurrence (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)






my question is how do we know if Paul simply meant to know, or if he meant to ordain?



also, since every word in the Bible was inspired by God, should we take into account the word knew and how it functioned in the OT? for example Adam knew Eve and in Amos 3 God says to Israel only you have i known



or should we only translate considering the words in the NT?



i ask this because the meaning of this word weighs greatly on how i view and worship God. If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.

also it seems that whenever the word for foreknowledge is used in the NT it refers to a personal knowing of someone, not just a foreknowing of future events



any suggestions?

Ixthus
Jan 23rd 2009, 03:49 PM
I've studied Greek for a while now and I believe that the word does accurately translate into foreknow. I am going to look it up when I get back home and I'll try to get a better answer for you.

Butch5
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:02 PM
hey everyone once again im just trying to learn more about the Bible. lets try to keep it unbiased and peaceful:P

Here is my question: i was looking at the word foreknew in Romans 8:29

this is what i got in greek:


4267. proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko)

4268 >> (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4268.htm)

foreknow, know before προγινώσκοντές (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm) προέγνω (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm) προεγνωσμένου (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)

From pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm) and ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm); to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee -- foreknow (ordain), know (before).
see GREEK pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm)
see GREEK ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm)
προγινώσκοντές (proginōskontes) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm)
προέγνω (proegnō) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm)

προεγνωσμένου (proegnōsmenou) − 1 Occurrence (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)






my question is how do we know if Paul simply meant to know, or if he meant to ordain?



also, since every word in the Bible was inspired by God, should we take into account the word knew and how it functioned in the OT? for example Adam knew Eve and in Amos 3 God says to Israel only you have i known



or should we only translate considering the words in the NT?



i ask this because the meaning of this word weighs greatly on how i view and worship God. If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.

also it seems that whenever the word for foreknowledge is used in the NT it refers to a personal knowing of someone, not just a foreknowing of future events



any suggestions?

The word foreknow,or the Greek word "proginosko" simply means to know before. While it can mean in an intimate way, it has absolutely "nothing" to do with ordaining or predestining.

reformedct
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:15 PM
The word foreknow,or the Greek word "proginosko" simply means to know before. While it can mean in an intimate way, it has absolutely "nothing" to do with ordaining or predestining.

when i looked it up it says that it can also indeed mean ordain

thats why i opened this thread. how do we know that it only means knowing before, especially when it refers to God? how do we know that it does not mean ordain? im not saying your wrong because i dont know for sure at this point. according to the above definition, it can indeed mean ordain, so im trying to figure out how do we know which definition we should go with? i think this particular form of the word is only found twice in the Bible and both times it refers to God

Butch5
Jan 23rd 2009, 05:56 PM
when i looked it up it says that it can also indeed mean ordain

thats why i opened this thread. how do we know that it only means knowing before, especially when it refers to God? how do we know that it does not mean ordain? im not saying your wrong because i dont know for sure at this point. according to the above definition, it can indeed mean ordain, so im trying to figure out how do we know which definition we should go with? i think this particular form of the word is only found twice in the Bible and both times it refers to God

OK, apparently I was wrong. It appears that there are some that give ordain as a definition. Therefore the definition will have to be determined by context. So, let's look at predestined,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G4309 προορίζω proorizō Thayer Definition: 1) to predetermine, decide beforehand 2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity 3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

Since predestined means to pre-ordain, it seems that to define proginosko as ordain would be redundant, not to metion it would not be in keeping with the context. Also Luke uses this same word to mean to knw before, and he is not speaking of God,

Acts 26:4-5 ( KJV ) 4My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

reformedct
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:25 PM
also just a sidenote, as i said earlier, throughout the OT the word "know" when used by God often refers to a personal, intimate knowing.

yes, i see agree that foreknown can also simply mean to know beforehand. or to know from a long time past. but actually, in context of romans 8, with predestination, calling, etc, i am currently leaning toward the meaning of ordain, that foreknown may mean an intimate ordaining.

i could be wrong though im not acting like i know for sure. lol i wish God would have used a different word. no disrespect to God lol

RabbiKnife
Jan 23rd 2009, 06:28 PM
I don't understand at all how even the concept of "knowing intimately" can possible be understood as ordaining or causing.

My wife knows me intimately. She knows that if there is (a) a Dr. Pepper and (b) a Diet Coke in the fridge, that I am always, without fail, going to choose the Dr. Pepper.

But that doesn't mean she ordained me to take the DP.

reformedct
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:18 PM
I don't understand at all how even the concept of "knowing intimately" can possible be understood as ordaining or causing.

My wife knows me intimately. She knows that if there is (a) a Dr. Pepper and (b) a Diet Coke in the fridge, that I am always, without fail, going to choose the Dr. Pepper.

But that doesn't mean she ordained me to take the DP.

by knowing intimately i was meaning a choosing to have intimate relationship.

as i said i could be wrong, but as i said earlier, this specific word foreknew, can be translated as simply knowing or it could indeed be ordain. of course all u reformed think its ordained and other would say simply know.

but what i am trying to find is how exactly do we determine which definition is accurate? i myself am not even sure of this yet

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:30 PM
hey everyone once again im just trying to learn more about the Bible. lets try to keep it unbiased and peaceful:P

Here is my question: i was looking at the word foreknew in Romans 8:29

this is what i got in greek:


4267. proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko)

4268 >> (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4268.htm)

foreknow, know before προγινώσκοντές (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm) προέγνω (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm) προεγνωσμένου (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)

From pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm) and ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm); to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee -- foreknow (ordain), know (before).
see GREEK pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm)
see GREEK ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm)
προγινώσκοντές (proginōskontes) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm)
προέγνω (proegnō) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm)

προεγνωσμένου (proegnōsmenou) − 1 Occurrence (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)






my question is how do we know if Paul simply meant to know, or if he meant to ordain?



also, since every word in the Bible was inspired by God, should we take into account the word knew and how it functioned in the OT? for example Adam knew Eve and in Amos 3 God says to Israel only you have i known



or should we only translate considering the words in the NT?



i ask this because the meaning of this word weighs greatly on how i view and worship God. If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.

also it seems that whenever the word for foreknowledge is used in the NT it refers to a personal knowing of someone, not just a foreknowing of future events





any suggestions?I can't give you the original greek definition, but what I can give you is the what's posted in my head regarding knowing what God's love is, and knowing what it isn't despite any knowledge one possesses regarding the meaning of words.


The Parable of the Good Samaritan Luke 10:25-37

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. Teacher, he asked, what must I do to inherit eternal life? What is written in the Law? He replied. How do you read it? He answered: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' You have answered correctly, Jesus replied. Do this and you will live. But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, And who is my neighbor? In reply Jesus said: A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver [coins] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers? The expert in the law replied, The one who had mercy on him. Jesus told him, Go and do likewise.



So despite one's knowledge..or lack thereof..I think the first step one must make in having a relationship with God is showing mercy and compassion to one's brother...or simply put..;love one another. One shall inherit eternal life if they are able to follow this simple command which summarizes all of the commands given by God through his son.

Walstib
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:42 PM
but what i am trying to find is how exactly do we determine which definition is accurate? i myself am not even sure of this yet

One thing, of the 22 translations I just checked none of them used the word ordained. What does that tell you considering the wealth of knowledge and study that must have gone into all that.

Second, no where does it say God does not foreknow all people, saved and unsaved. All the lead up and all the therefores in Romans so far has been leading up what Paul is expressing in the second half of chapter 8, a specific group of people is being focused on here. Spirit filled people. This group of people He foreknew......
To consider,
Joe

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:42 PM
Excuse any jumbled up wording above...I had to go through and make some html edits...hope you understood what was meant...;)

Love Fountain
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:47 PM
I don't understand at all how even the concept of "knowing intimately" can possible be understood as ordaining or causing.

My wife knows me intimately. She knows that if there is (a) a Dr. Pepper and (b) a Diet Coke in the fridge, that I am always, without fail, going to choose the Dr. Pepper.

But that doesn't mean she ordained me to take the DP.


Please consider that if your wife bought both the Dr. Pepper and Diet Coke knowing you always pick Dr. Pepper, by her purchase, wouldn't she then have ordained you to take the DP?

reformedct
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:51 PM
One thing, of the 22 translations I just checked none of them used the word ordained. What does that tell you considering the wealth of knowledge and study that must have gone into all that.

Second, no where does it say God does not foreknow all people, saved and unsaved. All the lead up and all the therefores in Romans so far has been leading up what Paul is expressing in the second half of chapter 8, a specific group of people is being focused on here. Spirit filled people. This group of people He foreknew......

To consider,
Joe

thanks,

i know you have studied this more than i have; do you think the implication of love is also in the word foreknew? because i know throughout the OT when the word used for knowing is said it can many times refer to an intimate loving or specific relationship. For example Adam knew Eve and she bore a son.

is there some sort of connection there? im leaning to think that foreknowledge also implies some type of loving.

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 23rd 2009, 08:55 PM
I don't understand at all how even the concept of "knowing intimately" can possible be understood as ordaining or causing.

My wife knows me intimately. She knows that if there is (a) a Dr. Pepper and (b) a Diet Coke in the fridge, that I am always, without fail, going to choose the Dr. Pepper.

But that doesn't mean she ordained me to take the DP.

I think that means that you're wife loves you..specifically demonstrating that despite her foreknowledge of what was in da fridge, she put your needs above her own...greater love has no man than this, that he gives his life for his friends. Remember while we were his enemies, Christ died for us.

God bless

Edit: Or to simplify..God foreknew mankind was destined to destruction based on Adam's sin, and sent his son to die in our place. Grace.

Love Fountain
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:10 PM
If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.




Hello reformedct,


He chose to love you, He loved you first.


1 John 4:19

19 We love him, because he first loved us.
KJV


God is personal and wants a personal relationship. True love is personal. God wants your true personal love. God wants all of our true love. We were made for his pleasure.

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
KJV


Bless you,
Love Fountain

Friend of I AM
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:14 PM
hey everyone once again im just trying to learn more about the Bible. lets try to keep it unbiased and peaceful:P

Here is my question: i was looking at the word foreknew in Romans 8:29

this is what i got in greek:


4267. proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko)

4268 >> (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4268.htm)

foreknow, know before προγινώσκοντές (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm) προέγνω (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm) προεγνωσμένου (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)

From pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm) and ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm); to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee -- foreknow (ordain), know (before).
see GREEK pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm)
see GREEK ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm)
προγινώσκοντές (proginōskontes) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm)
προέγνω (proegnō) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm)

προεγνωσμένου (proegnōsmenou) − 1 Occurrence (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)






my question is how do we know if Paul simply meant to know, or if he meant to ordain?



also, since every word in the Bible was inspired by God, should we take into account the word knew and how it functioned in the OT? for example Adam knew Eve and in Amos 3 God says to Israel only you have i known



or should we only translate considering the words in the NT?



i ask this because the meaning of this word weighs greatly on how i view and worship God. If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.

also it seems that whenever the word for foreknowledge is used in the NT it refers to a personal knowing of someone, not just a foreknowing of future events



any suggestions?

I would suggest that you shouldn't strive too much over words and their origins. The gaining of such information is profitable only to a minute degree, as meanings of words change over the years, and can be manipulated by men to support whatever man made doctrine they want to support. The word has never been immune to the corruption of men, thus why we have so many pervasive false doctrines out there today. Since no one has foreknowledge of what will happen in the future but God, I would definitely say one's best bet is to just follow the two basic commands given by Jesus(love one's brother, love God) So don't worry about silly man made pre-ordainment doctrines...just be loving and you'll have your reward.

Love Fountain
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:17 PM
I think that means that you're wife loves you..specifically demonstrating that despite her foreknowledge of what was in da fridge, she put your needs above her own...greater love has no man than this, that he gives his life for his friends. Remember while we were his enemies, Christ died for us.

God bless

Edit: Or to simplify..God foreknew mankind was destined to destruction based on Adam's sin, and sent his son to die in our place. Grace.



Great response Just_Another_Guy, sounds like learned experience.


Prov 3:13

13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
KJV

Bless you,
Love Fountain

RabbiKnife
Jan 23rd 2009, 09:46 PM
Please consider that if your wife bought both the Dr. Pepper and Diet Coke knowing you always pick Dr. Pepper, by her purchase, wouldn't she then have ordained you to take the DP?

You assume she put the Dr. Pepper in the fridge...

And I still don't see any connection between knowing something and causing something.

John146
Jan 23rd 2009, 10:00 PM
when i looked it up it says that it can also indeed mean ordainBut then the verse would be saying for those God ordained He also predestined. That wouldn't make much sense since those words mean pretty much the same thing, which would mean Paul was being redundant.

VerseGobbler
Jan 23rd 2009, 10:01 PM
I would suggest that you shouldn't strive too much over words and their origins. The gaining of such information is profitable only to a minute degree, as meanings of words change over the years, and can be manipulated by men to support whatever man made doctrine they want to support. The word has never been immune to the corruption of men, thus why we have so many pervasive false doctrines out there today. Since no one has foreknowledge of what will happen in the future but God, I would definitely say one's best bet is to just follow the two basic commands given by Jesus(love one's brother, love God) So don't worry about silly man made pre-ordainment doctrines...just be loving and you'll have your reward.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Amen!:pp

Jude
Jan 23rd 2009, 10:09 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/123064328068532.gif

Its all Greek to me, I just know that the elect is the elect no
matter how many versions we look up.

Jude

TrustingFollower
Jan 23rd 2009, 10:22 PM
also just a sidenote, as i said earlier, throughout the OT the word "know" when used by God often refers to a personal, intimate knowing.

yes, i see agree that foreknown can also simply mean to know beforehand. or to know from a long time past. but actually, in context of romans 8, with predestination, calling, etc, i am currently leaning toward the meaning of ordain, that foreknown may mean an intimate ordaining.

i could be wrong though im not acting like i know for sure. lol i wish God would have used a different word. no disrespect to God lol
I line with your thinking here, I would say that God knew Jesus before the foundation of the world. God and Jesus would have an intimate relationship being they are both God, hence God foreknew Jesus. Where as, in relationship to the predestination reference of Romans 8, I don't see how God would foreknow the people that had not yet been created. God would come to know the people as he created them, but would not be able to know them in an intimate way until they are created.

Walstib
Jan 24th 2009, 01:40 PM
i know you have studied this more than i have; do you think the implication of love is also in the word foreknew? because i know throughout the OT when the word used for knowing is said it can many times refer to an intimate loving or specific relationship. For example Adam knew Eve and she bore a son. is there some sort of connection there? ......... im leaning to think that foreknowledge also implies some type of loving. .I hear what you are saying. You have almost 1000 uses of that word in the OT translated as something like 70 different words. Not much of a case there I would say. I think you can see in certain uses it is used to say two people came together for intercourse. Look at Judges 19:25 and consider how much love is included in the word there.

Again I believe the argument put forth by those who want it to include love sounds logical, but is logical fallacy built with picking and choosing verses. Just because a conclusion is logical does not mean it has the proper foundation to be the capital T Truth.
But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him. (1Co 8:3 NKJV)But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. (Joh 5:42 NKJV)

Context, context, context.

And I just wanted to remind you not to trust me, search for yourself and pray, pray, pray.

Peace,
Joe

doppelganger
Jan 24th 2009, 02:15 PM
I would suggest that you shouldn't strive too much over words and their origins. The gaining of such information is profitable only to a minute degree, as meanings of words change over the years, and can be manipulated by men to support whatever man made doctrine they want to support. The word has never been immune to the corruption of men, thus why we have so many pervasive false doctrines out there today. Since no one has foreknowledge of what will happen in the future but God, I would definitely say one's best bet is to just follow the two basic commands given by Jesus(love one's brother, love God) So don't worry about silly man made pre-ordainment doctrines...just be loving and you'll have your reward.
Not to nitpick, but I think we have to be careful with this kind of conclusion. It's true that those are the two greatest commandments, and if we are truly successful in keeping these two commandments, we will have honored God in all areas.

However, why did God give us 66 books of the Bible if all we need to know is, "Love God; Love Others"?

Paul encouraged both Timothy (1 Tim. 4:16) and Titus (Tit. 1:9, 2:1) to pay careful attention to their doctrine, and to hold fast to sound doctrine.

What we believe about God, is very important. If God has told us that He acts sovereignly in the election of His adopted heirs, we should strive earnestly to fully understand this action of His.

doppelganger
Jan 24th 2009, 02:24 PM
I don't see how God would foreknow the people that had not yet been created. God would come to know the people as he created them, but would not be able to know them in an intimate way until they are created.

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world...

Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

doppelganger
Jan 24th 2009, 02:34 PM
But then the verse would be saying for those God ordained He also predestined. That wouldn't make much sense since those words mean pretty much the same thing, which would mean Paul was being redundant.
I'm not making any claims as to the specific meaning of these words in this particular context, but I think "foreknew" could mean "ordained" without being redundant.

For example, God could say, "Because I decided (chose/ordained) for you to be my adopted heir, I will shape your destiny in accordance with that plan."

For what it's worth, here is how the translators/editors of the Amplified Bible phrase this verse: "For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son..."

Friend of I AM
Jan 24th 2009, 04:15 PM
However, why did God give us 66 books of the Bible if all we need to know is, "Love God; Love Others"?


1 Corinthians 1:18-31
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."




Paul encouraged both Timothy (1 Tim. 4:16) and Titus (Tit. 1:9, 2:1) to pay careful attention to their doctrine, and to hold fast to sound doctrine.
What we believe about God, is very important. If God has told us that He acts sovereignly in the election of His adopted heirs, we should strive earnestly to fully understand this action of His.


We should strive to be loving..all those who know love know God. This is the simplicity of Christ..and the simplicity of the whole gospel. The entire gospel can be summarized in the simple command.."love one another."

God bless,

Stephen

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 04:22 PM
I line with your thinking here, I would say that God knew Jesus before the foundation of the world. God and Jesus would have an intimate relationship being they are both God, hence God foreknew Jesus. Where as, in relationship to the predestination reference of Romans 8, I don't see how God would foreknow the people that had not yet been created. God would come to know the people as he created them, but would not be able to know them in an intimate way until they are created.

I would think it's pretty easy to foreknow those people when you know the end from the beginning.

I always thought of it as a train being watched from a distance. You can see the enging, the caboose and everything in between.

Anyway, those God foreknew, he predestinated. Who are those God foreknew? The ones He chose.

TrustingFollower
Jan 24th 2009, 04:43 PM
Anyway, those God foreknew, he predestinated. Who are those God foreknew? The ones He chose.
This line of thinks does not work. You are saying God did not foreknow everyone, only the elect. What about all the other people, the non believers did God not know them too?

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 04:47 PM
This line of thinks does not work. You are saying God did not foreknow everyone, only the elect. What about all the other people, the non believers did God not know them too?

Can God choose not to know?

Does Christ tell them "I knew you once but now I don't" or does He say "I never knew you"?

Those He foreknew (the elect), He predestined, called, justified, and glorified.

TrustingFollower
Jan 24th 2009, 05:00 PM
Those He foreknew (the elect), He predestined, called, justified, and glorified.
So then you were save through election rather than by grace through faith?

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 05:38 PM
So then you were save through election rather than by grace through faith?

If I am born again, I was elected to be saved by grace through faith, and that not of myself, it is a gift of God.

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 05:40 PM
what is not of yourself and the gift?

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 05:44 PM
what is not of yourself and the gift?

Salvation is given by God.

Faith is given by God.

Grace is given by God.

When one results in the other, then they are all of God...

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 05:46 PM
but it says the means (through) of obtaining the gift is faith, not faith is a gift

by and through
not
by and by

TrustingFollower
Jan 24th 2009, 05:51 PM
If I am born again, I was elected to be saved by grace through faith, and that not of myself, it is a gift of God.
If you were elected then were does the grace and faith come in? It still comes down to you being saved by election only.

Diolectic
Jan 24th 2009, 05:59 PM
Foreknowledge is only knowing in advance.
Knowledge is not a cause of anything, nor does it determine anything.

Foreknowing anything thing does not ordain anything.
In order to ordain something, the one with the authority must want it to happen so to determine it &/or appoint it.

God may determine, appoint, ordain something FOR which He foreknows will happen.
Such as the atonement; God determined, appointed, ordained Jesus to make atonement for the sins of the world, but He did not determine, appoint, ordain the sin which crucified Him

Diolectic
Jan 24th 2009, 06:02 PM
Salvation is given by God.

Faith is given by God.

Grace is given by God.

When one results in the other, then they are all of God...
If faith is given, then God is directly responcible for the faithlessness of those who do not believe; because he did not give it to them.
You put the blaim of man's faithlessness on God, shame on you.


If I am born again, I was elected to be saved by grace through faith, and that not of myself, it is a gift of God.
Eph. 2:8, The first half of the verse belongs together, “For by grace you have been saved through faith” – dia pisteōs functions as the “indirect object” clause of este sesōsmenoi. Likewise, the second half, “and this (state of affairs) is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift,” is a contrast which only makes sense in a “not x but y” clause.
Hence the verse should be rendered, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this state of affairs is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.”

By the way, both the Calvinist supposition that the “this” refers to “faith” and the Arminian supposition that the “this” refers to “grace” are grammatically impossible, since the “this” (touto) is neuter while both “faith” (pisteōs) and “grace” (chariti) are feminine and since pronouns and antecedents must agree in gender.
Rather, “this” (touto) refers to the entire statement, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”


Thus we could accurately paraphrase, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and the fact that salvation works this way is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.”

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 06:03 PM
Foreknowledge is only knowing in advance.Yes!!! :idea: ...but that's not 'spiritual' enough for most!

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 06:05 PM
If faith is given, then God is directly responcible for the faithlessness of those who do not believe; because he did not give it to them.
You put the blaim of man's faithlessness on God, shame on you.look out...here comes the sovereignty one liners

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 06:41 PM
but it says the means (through) of obtaining the gift is faith, not faith is a gift

by and through
not
by and by

Ephesians 2:8 (King James Version)


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What we need to determine is what does the "it is a gift of God" refer to.

Looking at the pretext, you have 3 options.

1. Grace
2. Salvation (saved)
3. Faith

Ephesians 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=3&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power.

Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

2 Timothy 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=1&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Grace is given to us by God.
Faith is given to us by God.
Salvation is given to us by God.

If God gave you one, then He gave you all.


If you were elected then were does the grace and faith come in? It still comes down to you being saved by election only.

If I were elected, I was elected to be given grace and faith.

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 06:45 PM
Foreknowledge is only knowing in advance.
Knowledge is not a cause of anything, nor does it determine anything.

Foreknowling anyingthing does not ordaine anything.
In order to ordain something, the one with the authority must want it to happen so to determine it &/or appoint it.

God may determine, appoint, ordain something FOR which He forknows will happen.
Such as the atonment; God determined, appointed, ordained Jesus to make attonement for the sins of the world, but He did not determine, appoint, ordain the sin which crucifide Him.

Nice opinion, but unscriptural.


If faith is given, then God is directly responcible for the faithlessness of those who do not believe; because he did not give it to them.
You put the blaim of man's faithlessness on God, shame on you.

God blames man. Wherever God places the blame, I will not argue, though man cannot resist His will.


Eph. 2:8, The first half of the verse belongs together, “For by grace you have been saved through faith” – dia pisteōs functions as the “indirect object” clause of este sesōsmenoi. Likewise, the second half, “and this (state of affairs) is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift,” is a contrast which only makes sense in a “not x but y” clause.
Hence the verse should be rendered, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this state of affairs is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.”

By the way, both the Calvinist supposition that the “this” refers to “faith” and the Arminian supposition that the “this” refers to “grace” are grammatically impossible, since the “this” (touto) is neuter while both “faith” (pisteōs) and “grace” (chariti) are feminine and since pronouns and antecedents must agree in gender.
Rather, “this” (touto) refers to the entire statement, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”


Thus we could accurately paraphrase, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and the fact that salvation works this way is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.”

I would agree with that. The whole thing is a gift of God.

Sirus
Jan 24th 2009, 06:54 PM
Romans 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Faith is given to us by God.
The only place it says that (faith given) and what is the context? The 'apostle' speaking to the body of Christ concerning gifts of ministry. This has nothing to do with initial salvation. You'll have to try and find another passage for that context....but you won't be able to.

What scripture tells us when 'the measure of faith' was given?

Diolectic
Jan 24th 2009, 07:03 PM
Foreknowledge is only knowing in advance.
Knowledge is not a cause of anything, nor does it determine anything.

Foreknowing anything thing does not ordain anything.
In order to ordain something, the one with the authority must want it to happen so to determine it &/or appoint it.

God may determine, appoint, ordain something FOR which He foreknows will happen.
Such as the atonement; God determined, appointed, ordained Jesus to make atonement for the sins of the world, but He did not determine, appoint, ordain the sin which crucified Him
Nice opinion, but unscriptural.Sure it is scriptural, it lines u[p with reality perfectly.



If faith is given, then God is directly responsible for the faithlessness of those who do not believe; because he did not give it to them.
You put the blame of man's faithlessness on God, shame on you
God blames man.How so, if He is the one keeping them from believing?


Wherever God places the blame, I will not argueThen understand the concept of blaim.
One can not be blaimed for an inability.
IF we are unable to have faith, we are unblaimable for not having it.
We are not disobeying or even rebelling anything that we can not do.

IF God is responcible to give faith, then He is blame worthy of the one not having it.


though man cannot resist His will.If your refering to Romans 9:19, the word for "will" which we can not resist is the Greek word for intention.
19: You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His intention?
If God's intention was to do something, who can resist it?
However, God's will is resisted every day.
God never wills for sin, but man resists thet and sins.



Thus we could accurately paraphrase, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and the fact that salvation works this way is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.”I would agree with that. The whole thing is a gift of God.I'm sure you mis-understood.

It is not saying that mecy is a gift, & it is not saying that faith is a gift, but the whole prosess of being saved by grace through faith it the entire gift.

No one can not make the distinction from this verse which is a gift or not.

Butch5
Jan 24th 2009, 08:02 PM
also just a sidenote, as i said earlier, throughout the OT the word "know" when used by God often refers to a personal, intimate knowing.

yes, i see agree that foreknown can also simply mean to know beforehand. or to know from a long time past. but actually, in context of romans 8, with predestination, calling, etc, i am currently leaning toward the meaning of ordain, that foreknown may mean an intimate ordaining.

i could be wrong though im not acting like i know for sure. lol i wish God would have used a different word. no disrespect to God lol

Look at the context, it is explained by Paul. God's foreknowledge of who? Those who love God. It is the ones who love Him, that He foreknows, Paul makes this clearly in verse 28, yes it is intimate because they have a relationship with God, ie. Abraham, Issac, and David, etc. This predestining is spoken of those who love God. Paul doesn't say they were foreknown from the beginning, or from the foundation of the world, he gives no time reference, he simply says they were foreknown. God knew them before, earlier, in the past. Paul is saying that God had predetermined to conform to the image of His Son, those who love Him. To prove this he goes on to say that those who love Him ie. Abraham, Issac, David, etc. He called, justified, and glorified. This is Paul's proof to those at the church in Rome that God will do the same for them.

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 11:26 PM
Sure it is scriptural, it lines u[p with reality perfectly.


My bad, you are right. Here's the Scripture supporting it....

um...

well...

imagine that...


Then understand the concept of blaim.
One can not be blaimed for an inability.
IF we are unable to have faith, we are unblaimable for not having it.
We are not disobeying or even rebelling anything that we can not do.

IF God is responcible to give faith, then He is blame worthy of the one not having it.

I understand YOUR concept of blame. God however will blame who He will.


If your refering to Romans 9:19, the word for "will" which we can not resist is the Greek word for intention.
19: You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His intention?
If God's intention was to do something, who can resist it?
However, God's will is resisted every day.
God never wills for sin, but man resists thet and sins.

Right, just like Helko is the word for drag, not draw.

If you wish to redefine Scripture, we can do so.


I'm sure you mis-understood.

It is not saying that mecy is a gift, & it is not saying that faith is a gift, but the whole prosess of being saved by grace through faith it the entire gift.

No one can not make the distinction from this verse which is a gift or not.


You are right, thus the reason I put it "in context"

Sirus
Jan 25th 2009, 08:35 AM
I understand YOUR concept of blame. God however will blame who He will.
There's the sovereignty one liner I said must come ;)




Right, just like Helko is the word for drag, not draw.

If you wish to redefine Scripture, we can do so.
Well how do you define it, from the context? From the context (John 6), how does the Father drag? What does it say the will of the Father is and what the work of the Son is? That is how the Father drags, from context. Imagine that.... :idea:

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 02:40 PM
There's the sovereignty one liner I said must come ;)


Well how do you define it, from the context? From the context (John 6), how does the Father drag? What does it say the will of the Father is and what the work of the Son is? That is how the Father drags, from context. Imagine that.... :idea:

This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is not a work of man, but of God.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

It is not man that gives himself to Christ, but God that gives men to Christ.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Those God gave to Christ (the born again) will not be lost but raised at the last day. God's will will be done.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Christ raises up the born again at the last day. Therefore the only ones drawn (dragged) by the Father are the born again.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

And there we have it. To come to Christ is a gift to be given by God.

Imagine that....

TrustingFollower
Jan 25th 2009, 06:16 PM
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is not a work of man, but of God.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

It is not man that gives himself to Christ, but God that gives men to Christ.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Those God gave to Christ (the born again) will not be lost but raised at the last day. God's will will be done.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Christ raises up the born again at the last day. Therefore the only ones drawn (dragged) by the Father are the born again.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

And there we have it. To come to Christ is a gift to be given by God.

Imagine that....
You are on a very dangerous course with this line of thinking. You have effectively just raised yourself above Jesus and reduced our savior to nothing more than a prize for the elect. Very dangerous if you actually believe this way. Jesus is the only way to the father not the other way around as you have stated above.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 06:27 PM
You are on a very dangerous course with this line of thinking. You have effectively just raised yourself above Jesus and reduced our savior to nothing more than a prize for the elect. Very dangerous if you actually believe this way. Jesus is the only way to the father not the other way around as you have stated above.

What is more dangerous?

Agreeing with Scripture or claiming God is omnipotent yet saying we worship a God who can fail?


John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Amen.

Sirus
Jan 25th 2009, 07:49 PM
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is not a work of man, but of God.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

It is not man that gives himself to Christ, but God that gives men to Christ.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Those God gave to Christ (the born again) will not be lost but raised at the last day. God's will will be done.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Christ raises up the born again at the last day. Therefore the only ones drawn (dragged) by the Father are the born again.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

And there we have it. To come to Christ is a gift to be given by God.

Imagine that....Why did you jump from v29 to v37? You didn't finish v29! And why didn't you post v38?

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign showest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


This continues and it is says....

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


but then what does it say? How does the Father draw? No man hath seen the Father but by the Son.


Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.



Now Jesus continues about his flesh and blood and plainly says 'this is why he said no man come but by the Father'.

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.



Now it stands to reason that if Jesus said 'therefore' then we have to ask what is it there for and know there is further explanation. The text is full of Jesus, believing on the one that has seen the Father whereby we know we have seen the Father. That we are taught of God having not seen Him because we have seen the one He has sent and believe. TrustingFollower pointed out Joh 14:6 and you said amen, but the context of that reveals the same!!!

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The only way to be drawn by the Father is by the one that has shown us the Father, by the will of the Father, sent by the Father. Jesus! His work which is the Fathers work is his body and blood -Cross!!!

How does the Father in Christ draw?

Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Joh 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

TrustingFollower
Jan 25th 2009, 07:59 PM
What is more dangerous?

Agreeing with Scripture or claiming God is omnipotent yet saying we worship a God who can fail?



Amen.
I have not seen anyone here state that God has failed in anything. If you are making accusations then please show proof if it other wise it is nothing but rumors and lies.

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2009, 08:17 PM
Why did you jump from v29 to v37? You didn't finish v29! And why didn't you post v38?

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign showest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


This continues and it is says....

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


but then what does it say? How does the Father draw? No man hath seen the Father but by the Son.


Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.



Now Jesus continues about his flesh and blood and plainly says 'this is why he said no man come but by the Father'.

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.



Now it stands to reason that if Jesus said 'therefore' then we have to ask what is it there for and know there is further explanation. The text is full of Jesus, believing on the one that has seen the Father whereby we know we have seen the Father. That we are taught of God having not seen Him because we have seen the one He has sent and believe. TrustingFollower pointed out Joh 14:6 and you said amen, but the context of that reveals the same!!!

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The only way to be drawn by the Father is by the one that has shown us the Father, by the will of the Father, sent by the Father. Jesus! His work which is the Fathers work is his body and blood -Cross!!!

How does the Father in Christ draw?

Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Joh 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



Remember though that the son is given the ability to draw life by the Father(John 5:26). Though we are in him, we are also in him who is true...even his son Jesus Christ(1 John 5:20) Also remember that using the entire passage isn't always profitable in discussions..it can sometimes lead to more confusion and wording than necessary.

God bless.

Sirus
Jan 25th 2009, 08:22 PM
The entire passage is the entire context necessary for its proper meaning. Look at what people believe pulling a few verses out and causing them to stand alone! Entire passages and context is always profitable. If one is confused it is not because of scripture.

TrustingFollower
Jan 25th 2009, 08:33 PM
Remember though that the son is given the ability to draw life by the Father(John 5:26). Though we are in him, we are also in him who is true...even his son Jesus Christ(1 John 5:20) Also remember that using the entire passage isn't always profitable in discussions..it can sometimes lead to more confusion and wording than necessary.

God bless.
So how was Jesus given to draw people to him?

Mark 1:38 And he said to them, "Let us go on to the next towns, that I may preach there also, for that is why I came out."

Jesus drew people to him through preaching, why?

Romans 10:17-18 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (18) But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

Because faith comes from hearing the word of Christ.

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2009, 08:34 PM
The entire passage is the entire context necessary for it meaning. Look at what people believe pulling a few verses out and causing them to stand alone! Entire passages and context is always profitable. If one is confused it is not because of scripture.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. It depends on what's being said. The verses I gave above are a good example of this. I don't have to post the entirety of John 15 so that people understand that Jesus wants his disciples to "love one another." I like what the apostle Paul states regarding this..

2 Timothy 2:14
Remind believers about these things, and warn them in the sight of God not to quarrel over words. Quarreling doesn't do any good but only destroys those who are listening.

God bless you much in Christian Love.

Sirus
Jan 25th 2009, 08:39 PM
It may not always be necessary but it is always profitable. It doesn't depend on what is being said. One verse may do it, not here, but all cannot hurt. This is not a thread about how to post. Post as you will, and so will I :)

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2009, 08:42 PM
So how was Jesus given to draw people to him?

Mark 1:38 And he said to them, "Let us go on to the next towns, that I may preach there also, for that is why I came out."

Jesus drew people to him through preaching, why?

Romans 10:17-18 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (18) But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

Because faith comes from hearing the word of Christ.

Matthew 13:10-15
The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'

God has opened or closed the eyes of individuals to lead them to Christ. The Pharisees heard and saw, but did not listen. God did not allow their eyes to be opened, because they were full of a prideful spirit before him. We must pray that God opens our eyes regarding any situation he puts us into, so we can follow the right path in coming to him.

God bless.

Sirus
Jan 25th 2009, 09:24 PM
blinded because of unbelief
not blinded as an sovereign arbitrary act of God
It plainly says "they have closed their eyes". It has nothing to do with what God allowed but rather what they allowed.

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 12:02 AM
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Christ will raise up every man that God draws.

If you believe that God draws all men, then God must raise all men.

If not, then you believe God fails.

Sirus
Jan 26th 2009, 01:30 AM
All will be raised but not at the same time. Those not raised at the last 'day' (of the Lord), will be raised at the end of that 'day' (of the Lord) for Judgment before Christ, the judge of the quick and the dead. God doesn't fail. Christ didn't fail. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Phi 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Christ earned that right before the cross. It was before the cross all power and authority was given to him. The complete and finished work of Christ was for mans judgment.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

People use this to say the Spirit draws but no where in the context is there a sinner getting saved. Who is the Holy Ghost going to be sent to? The disciples/believers. Those that use this out of out context are not seeing John 16 through the revealed mystery of Christ. They have pulled out verses 8-11, separated them from v7, and applied them to their man made doctrine of sinners being drawn by the Spirit.

It is in believing the complete and finished work of Christ (gospel) that we are born again and baptized in the Spirit. Have you received since you believed? OT saints believed too, but they didn’t have the heavenly gift. Christ was not yet crucified for sin, raised, and ascended, and us with him! This is for believers, not the world. The Spirit didn’t lead them to Christ, mind you. It is because we believe in Christ we are given the heavenly gift. Believers then walk in obedience, led by the Spirit, not fulfilling the lust of the flesh, overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil (prince of this world). It is because of this the world is judged for sin, by righteousness.

Let me say that again! It is because of the natural bearing fruit of Christ in us the world is judged for sin, by righteousness. Unbelievers are guilty because of righteousness and are therefore convicted. You are convicted when guilty and at no other time are you convicted. The world is guilty because “they believe not on me”, but because you do believe Christ is risen, receive the Spirit, live holy blameless lives before men by the power of the gospel, on judgment day you will be my witnesses to the truth of the gospel. It plainly says the world rejected Christ. These are not sinners needing to be drawn. They are sinners needing to be judged!

1Pe 2:11-12 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Eph 3:9-11 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Rom 2:15-16 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Diolectic
Jan 26th 2009, 03:12 AM
Christ will raise up every man that God draws.

If you believe that God draws all men, then God must raise all men.No, God raises only those who don't resist His drawing and come to Him in obediance.
People who resisting His drawng in disobediance are condemned for that reason.


If not, then you believe God fails.Yes, God fails in attempting to save them, that is why they are condemned, for denying HIM.

Sirus
Jan 26th 2009, 04:59 AM
but no one can resist God's dragging. (see posts above -don't think 'reformed/calvinistic theology')
All will bow and confess Jesus is Lord, who was declare to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead. God did not fail in giving His Son. Jesus didn't fail in giving himself. Men fail by not bowing at the cross, but they will bow and confess.

Friend of I AM
Jan 26th 2009, 05:24 PM
blinded because of unbelief
not blinded as an sovereign arbitrary act of God
It plainly says "they have closed their eyes". It has nothing to do with what God allowed but rather what they allowed.

I'll agree with you in part. With the Pharisees it was indeed them choosing to be hardened, but remember them doing so was also part of God's plan as he knew that they would be the one's to kill his son. With most of the other Jews it was a spirit of unbelief that possessed them, they were blinded not as much by pride..but moreso by fear and ignorance. I think this was not really them doing so, but this was mostly God blinding them. Remember it is stated in the scriptures, Israel was given a heart of unbelief..so that the time of the Gentiles could be fulfilled..and Gentiles could be grafted into the fold. We are now reaching the fulfillment of that time of grafting.

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 10:16 PM
No, God raises only those who don't resist His drawing and come to Him in obediance.

I wouldn't disagree with that.


People who resisting His drawng in disobediance are condemned for that reason.

Not what the Scripture says. Christ said that those God draws to Christ will be raised up at the last day. The only ones that come to Christ are drawn by God. Who is drawn by God? The elect or everyone?



Yes, God fails in attempting to save them, that is why they are condemned, for denying HIM.


Our God never fails.

If our God attempts something, He does it.

Walstib
Jan 26th 2009, 10:35 PM
This thread was started to talk about foreknowledge and has kind of gotten a bit off track here.

A new one about drawing would be a better place to talk about that subject. Or in the election thread for the general stuff.

Thanks

Sirus
Jan 27th 2009, 05:04 AM
This thread was started to talk about foreknowledge and has kind of gotten a bit off track here.Yep. That's a two post thread......which isn't a thread.

OP: What is foreknowledge?
Respondent: God knowing beforehand

:idea:

BrckBrln
Jan 27th 2009, 05:18 AM
Yep. That's a two post thread......which isn't a thread.

OP: What is foreknowledge?
Respondent: God knowing beforehand

:idea:

And what in the passage tells you that it's faith that God knew beforehand?

Sirus
Jan 27th 2009, 05:23 AM
which passage and why are you restrictng the answer to one passage?
To answer you....what is the one thing that pleases God?...and where did I say it in my post? I didn't. You answered your own question.

shepherdsword
Jan 27th 2009, 05:39 AM
:OFFT:


Here is Vincent's response from his greek word studies:

8:29
d foreknow
proegnoo
. Five times in the New Testament. In all cases it means "foreknow." Acts 26:5; 1 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 3:17; Rom 11:2. It does not mean "foreordain." It signifies "prescience," not "preelection." "It is God's being aware in His plan, by means of which, before the subjects are destined by Him to salvation, He knows whom He has to destine thereto" (Meyer). It is to be remarked:

1. That
proegnoo
"foreknew" is used by the apostle as distinct and different from "predestinated"
prooorisen
.

2. That, strictly speaking, it is "coordinate" with "foreordained." "In God is no before." All the past, present, and future are simultaneously present to Him. In presenting the two phases, the operation of God's knowledge and of His decretory will, the succession of time is introduced, not as metaphysically true, but in concession to human limitations of thought. Hence, the coordinating force of
kai
"also."

3. That a predetermination of God is clearly stated as companying or (humanly speaking) succeeding, and grounded upon the foreknowledge.

4. That this predetermination is to the end of conformity to the image of the Son of God, and that this is the vital point of the passage.
(from Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Here is Wuest's reponse from his greek word studies:

8:29, 30
Paul now proceeds to explain how this calling of the saints out from their lost estate (v. 28) came about. The first step God took was to "foreknow" them. The word is
proginœskœ
, which in its verb and noun forms is used seven times in the New Testament, two of those times of man where it means "previous knowledge based upon circumstances" (Acts 26:5; 2 Peter 3:17), and five of those times of God (Acts 2:23; Rom 8:29; 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2,20). In Acts 2:23 it is used in the statement "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." The words "determinate counsel" are the translation of a perfect participle and a noun. The latter is
boul¢
, used in classical Greek of a council convened for the purpose of administering the affairs of government, such as the Roman Senate, or of the campfire council of Xenophon and his officers on their march back to Greece. Out from the deliberations of this latter council, for instance, would come counsel, a predetermined course of action that would best meet the circumstances they had to face on the march.

Here is A.T Robertson's response form his new testament word pictures:

Romans 8:29

Foreknew
proegnoo
. Second aorist active indicative of
proginooskoo
, an old verb as in Acts 26:5. See Ps 1:6 (Septuagint) and Matt 7:23. This fore-knowledge and choice is placed in eternity in Eph 1:4.

He foreordained
prooorisen
. First aorist active indicative of
proorizoo
, a late verb, to appoint beforehand as in Acts 4:28; 1 Cor 2:7. Another compound with [pro-] (for eternity).

Conformed to the image
summorfous

tees

eikonos
. A late adjective from
sun
and
morfee
and so an inward and not merely superficial conformity.
Eikoon
is used of Christ as the very image of the Father (2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15). See Phil 2:6 f for
morfee
. Here we have both
morfee
and
eikoon
to express the gradual change in us until we acquire the likeness of Christ the Son of God so that we ourselves shall ultimately have the family likeness of sons of God. Glorious destiny.

That he might be
eis

to

einai

auton
. A common idiom for purpose.

First born among many brethren
proototokon

en

pollois

adelfois
. Christ is "first born" of all creation (Col 1:15), but here he is "first born from the dead" (Col 1:18), the Eldest Brother in this family of God's sons, though "Son" in a sense not true of us.


Bottom line?:

Five times in the New Testament. In all cases it means "foreknow." Acts 26:5; 1 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 3:17; Rom 11:2. It does not mean "foreordain." It signifies "prescience," not "preelection." "

BrckBrln
Jan 27th 2009, 06:42 AM
which passage and why are you restrictng the answer to one passage?
To answer you....what is the one thing that pleases God?...and where did I say it in my post? I didn't. You answered your own question.

I'm talking about 1 Peter 1:1-2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Why should I believe that this foreknowledge is God's foreknowledge of the elect's faith when that is found nowhere in the passage or elsewhere in the Bible?

Spirit Driven
Jan 27th 2009, 09:57 AM
hey everyone once again im just trying to learn more about the Bible. lets try to keep it unbiased and peaceful:P

Here is my question: i was looking at the word foreknew in Romans 8:29

this is what i got in greek:


4267. proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko)

4268 >> (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4268.htm)

foreknow, know before προγινώσκοντές (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm) προέγνω (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm) προεγνωσμένου (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)

From pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm) and ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm); to know beforehand, i.e. Foresee -- foreknow (ordain), know (before).
see GREEK pro (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4253.htm)
see GREEK ginosko (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1097.htm)
προγινώσκοντές (proginōskontes) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/progino_skontes.htm)
προέγνω (proegnō) − 2 Occurrences (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_.htm)

προεγνωσμένου (proegnōsmenou) − 1 Occurrence (http://concordance.biblos.com/proegno_smenou.htm)






my question is how do we know if Paul simply meant to know, or if he meant to ordain?



also, since every word in the Bible was inspired by God, should we take into account the word knew and how it functioned in the OT? for example Adam knew Eve and in Amos 3 God says to Israel only you have i known



or should we only translate considering the words in the NT?



i ask this because the meaning of this word weighs greatly on how i view and worship God. If it means He chose to love me it is more intimate than just if he knew about my actions.

also it seems that whenever the word for foreknowledge is used in the NT it refers to a personal knowing of someone, not just a foreknowing of future events



any suggestions?

for knowing and for knowledge, is not God being able to see the Future of what sombody might do.

God knows what is ahead because they work out the way God planned.

Romans 9.19 nobody can resist his intention...some Bibles translate, nobody can resist his will.

He delights in every detail of our lives.....

Peace

Sirus
Jan 28th 2009, 12:51 AM
I'm talking about 1 Peter 1:1-2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Why should I believe that this foreknowledge is God's foreknowledge of the elect's faith when that is found nowhere in the passage or elsewhere in the Bible?A holistic view of all scripture? Common sense? Or maybe the context of 1Pet 1 itself? How about Tit 1:1? What? Do you suggest God chooses us based on works? Of course it's faith. How are you sanctified and obedient? Of the flesh? No, faith.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold thatperisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Sirus
Jan 28th 2009, 01:00 AM
for knowing and for knowledge, is not God being able to see the Future of what sombody might do.

God knows what is ahead because they work out the way God planned.

Romans 9.19 nobody can resist his intention...some Bibles translate, nobody can resist his will.No. According to context the will of God and purpose of God is Christ (mine elect) coming in the flesh through Israel. No one could resist that will and purpose of God.

Spirit Driven
Jan 28th 2009, 05:40 AM
No. According to context the will of God and purpose of God is Christ (mine elect) coming in the flesh through Israel. No one could resist that will and purpose of God.

The Context of Romans 9 is that nobody can resist Gods Will period.

let us look at Satan as an example, a vessel made for dis honor, God made him that way.

God created him

God gave him his Nature

God even has to give him power for him to have any

All to serve Gods purpose for him.

Look at the World around you, see the ancient ruins of Eygpt....that great Civilisation was raised from the dust, to serve a single purpose only.

So that the name of God would be published through out all the Earth!

There is only one being in Creation with Free Will...God!

The remainder are will full.....but it avails them nothing.

Every Knee will bow.....every tounge will swear allegiance.

Peace

Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 11:41 PM
The Context of Romans 9 is that nobody can resist Gods Will period.

let us look at Satan as an example, a vessel made for dis honor, God made him that way.

God created him

God gave him his Nature

God even has to give him power for him to have any

All to serve Gods purpose for him.

Look at the World around you, see the ancient ruins of Eygpt....that great Civilisation was raised from the dust, to serve a single purpose only.

So that the name of God would be published through out all the Earth!

There is only one being in Creation with Free Will...God!

The remainder are will full.....but it avails them nothing.

Every Knee will bow.....every tounge will swear allegiance.

Peace

Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.


Funny, I always thought it was pride.

Sirus
Jan 29th 2009, 04:56 AM
No. According to context the will of God and purpose of God is Christ (mine elect) coming in the flesh through Israel. No one could resist that will and purpose of God.The Context of Romans 9 is that nobody can resist Gods Will period.
Search "will of God" and see the different ones from context. There is 'the' will which is the "mystery of Christ" and this is the context of Romans 9. It is corporate not individualist. From Romans 9-11 it is Israel/Gentiles. That is very clear. The base is set in the first part of Romans 9 plainly stating that the Messiah would come through the seed of Jacob/Israel. That promised seed goes back to Genesis 3. Christ is "mine elect" and we must be in Him to be elect. No one individual is being saved in Romans 9 but the Gentiles and some Jews are. It is not talking about a moment of initial salvation but salvation that is in Christ "mine elect".



let us look at Satan as an example, a vessel made for dis honor, God made him that way.
Well why would you want to do that since Satan is not in the context of Romans 9? But OK, I'll play....



God created him

God gave him his Nature
True, and he was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him. Surely you are not blaming God for Satan's sin are you? For we are sure that the judgment of God is true, that he is justified when he judges! Let God be true, but every man a liar. (Rom 2:2, 3:4)



God even has to give him power for him to have any

All to serve Gods purpose for him.
True for all! Even the damned glorify God on that great day!



Look at the World around you, see the ancient ruins of Eygpt....that great Civilisation was raised from the dust, to serve a single purpose only.

So that the name of God would be published through out all the Earth!
Right, which is exactly what I said above. Christ the express image of God through Israel delivered from Egypt.



There is only one being in Creation with Free Will...God!
We are the glory of God and in his image.



The remainder are will full.....but it avails them nothing.
That was pretty pointless! No, God doesn't do things without purpose.



Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Yes, now go read Isaiah 45, since it is referenced in Romans 9:19-21, ;) part of which you quoted twice.
Cyrus was used by God to free Israel so that the Messiah would come in the flesh. He had no choice. He could not resist the will of God to send His only Son to be the Savior!

John146
Jan 29th 2009, 04:42 PM
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is not a work of man, but of God.You are taking that verse out of context.

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

First, Jesus points out to them in verse 27 that they should not labor for things that perish but for things that are eternal. So, the question they are really asking in verse 28 is what it was they needed to do to fulfill the requirements of God in order to obtain the eternal life that Jesus just mentioned. They wanted to know how to labor "for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life". His answer was that they needed to believe in Him. He wasn't saying that believing in Him was God's doing. He was saying that the work or requirement of God for them to receive eternal life was to believe in Him. Just like it says in John 3:16.

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2009, 06:58 PM
You are taking that verse out of context.

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

First, Jesus points out to them in verse 27 that they should not labor for things that perish but for things that are eternal. So, the question they are really asking in verse 28 is what it was they needed to do to fulfill the requirements of God in order to obtain the eternal life that Jesus just mentioned. They wanted to know how to labor "for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life". His answer was that they needed to believe in Him. He wasn't saying that believing in Him was God's doing. He was saying that the work or requirement of God for them to receive eternal life was to believe in Him. Just like it says in John 3:16.

So they believed based on their own merit..or did God give them a heart of belief? My thought would be that it is the latter. Jesus did not say..this is a work of self..he clearly states "this is a work of God" in verse 29. Not much room for taking the verse out of context there. We see that Peter's belief and knowledge of Jesus being the Christ in itself had no ability to save him when he was sinking into the water...this is also true of us. We can believe Jesus is the Christ all we want, but God must extend himself and enact his faithfulness to us and through us in order for us to be saved.

Sirus
Jan 30th 2009, 04:03 AM
faith comes by hearing the word -gospel..................

This concept is seen throughout Scripture. Read Hebrews 11. Man is given a promise of God and has faith in the God of that promise. The gospel goes back to Genesis 3, as I pointed out in my previous post. When a sinner hears the gospel the hope, that is the gospel, is that the spirit that is willing (while the flesh is weak) and from God will respond to his creator in repentance and faith. Note: by regeneration by the washing of the word (gospel). The promise from God comes first!

So if the spirit is from God and the gospel is from God certainly salvation is of God.
So did God give them a heart to believe? If you believe the heart is the spirit from God in man, then yes, but then all men have a spirit, so???? Then question then is why some believe the gospel and others don't? My bible says men love darkness rather than light. It says we have faith in God. That we believe. It doesn't say God arbitrarily ordained some to believe and damned others.

..............it doesn't say faith comes as a gift by the Spirit

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:


Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

No tares to separate from the wheat here!!!!

This is why we are told to preach the gospel. The messenger is irrelevant. The power is in the message -word -gospel.

Friend of I AM
Jan 30th 2009, 03:21 PM
faith comes by hearing the word -gospel..................

This concept is seen throughout Scripture. Read Hebrews 11. Man is given a promise of God and has faith in the God of that promise. The gospel goes back to Genesis 3, as I pointed out in my previous post. When a sinner hears the gospel the hope, that is the gospel, is that the spirit that is willing (while the flesh is weak) and from God will respond to his creator in repentance and faith. Note: by regeneration by the washing of the word (gospel). The promise from God comes first!

So if the spirit is from God and the gospel is from God certainly salvation is of God.
So did God give them a heart to believe? If you believe the heart is the spirit from God in man, then yes, but then all men have a spirit, so???? Then question then is why some believe the gospel and others don't? My bible says men love darkness rather than light. It says we have faith in God. That we believe. It doesn't say God arbitrarily ordained some to believe and damned others.

..............it doesn't say faith comes as a gift by the Spirit

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:


Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

No tares to separate from the wheat here!!!!

This is why we are told to preach the gospel. The messenger is irrelevant. The power is in the message -word -gospel.


Where we agree is in the part that salvation is entirely of God. The disagreement lies with men having an unbelieving heart. I guess the question really is when does God give someone over to an unbelieving heart, and take his faith away from them? That's really where we are at in a nutshell. My answer would be that all faith that draws us to him comes from him, but not all men use the measure of faith that God has given them..thus at some point God gives them over to a hardened heart of unbelief.

For example...Pharoah had a measure of faith given to him, but did not use it for God's glory..he used it for his own thus Pharoah was given over to a heart of unbelief by God. This was the case with Israel. As we see from scriptures..one can still be saved even if they are given into a heart of unbelief, however, this is at God's discretion to do so...or as scriptures state God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy on and compassion on whom he will have compassion on.

Sirus
Jan 31st 2009, 03:44 AM
Where we agree is in the part that salvation is entirely of God. The disagreement lies with men having an unbelieving heart. I guess the question really is when does God give someone over to an unbelieving heart, and take his faith away from them? That's really where we are at in a nutshell. My answer would be that all faith that draws us to him comes from him, but not all men use the measure of faith that God has given them..thus at some point God gives them over to a hardened heart of unbelief.

For example...Pharoah had a measure of faith given to him, but did not use it for God's glory..he used it for his own thus Pharoah was given over to a heart of unbelief by God. This was the case with Israel. As we see from scriptures..one can still be saved even if they are given into a heart of unbelief, however, this is at God's discretion to do so...or as scriptures state God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy on and compassion on whom he will have compassion on.I agree with what you have said here, man - unbelieving heart. God knows when someone is given over but we can judge by fruit. My point was in regards to a special move and/or moment of drawing by the Spirit that is absent from Scripture.

Where is unbelieving Israel saved in Scripture? They're not. Ever! There is always a believing remnant. When scripture speaks of no one resisting His will it is towards the likes of Pharaoh (Rom 9), Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus (Isa 45/Rom 9) etc...and is for the purpose of Christ coming in the flesh. When it says mercy to whom He has mercy it is direct refference to Him showing Israel mercy after their rebellion in the wilderness so that He will bring Christ in the flesh. Context! That is ALL the context says through the cross references Romans 9 is pointing us to! (minus Nebuchadnezzar of course)

Borean
Jan 31st 2009, 08:47 AM
Six pages is a lot to read, so sorry if this has been said before.
"Those he foreknew He also predestined"
...not the other way around. Our Heavenly father knows everything certainly, but we do have a choice, or God would be someone who plays favorites. Once I heard someone point that out, I never worried about it again.

Yukerboy
Feb 1st 2009, 06:25 AM
Six pages is a lot to read, so sorry if this has been said before.
"Those he foreknew He also predestined"
...not the other way around. Our Heavenly father knows everything certainly, but we do have a choice, or God would be someone who plays favorites. Once I heard someone point that out, I never worried about it again.

Does He foreknow those who will not be born again?

Did Jesus say they will be told "I never knew you"?

It's not playing favorites when the vessels do what they were made to do.

Borean
Feb 1st 2009, 06:56 AM
Yes the vessel has no right to complain to its maker but I cannot believe there is not an element of choice...even when He hardened Pharaoh's heart it was after he had already hardened his own.

Sirus
Feb 1st 2009, 08:21 AM
It's not playing favorites when the vessels do what they were made to do.Did the same Potter leave no choice in Jer 18? Those vessels made some choices and it doesn't say or imply they were made to make the choices but that they were not. You are applying Romans 9 (reformed/calvin POV) Pharaoh's and Cyrus' to all mankind. Why?

Yukerboy
Feb 1st 2009, 03:45 PM
Did the same Potter leave no choice in Jer 18? Those vessels made some choices and it doesn't say or imply they were made to make the choices but that they were not. You are applying Romans 9 (reformed/calvin POV) Pharaoh's and Cyrus' to all mankind. Why?

No, what I am saying is those He foreknew, he predestined. Those who are not predestined, He never knew. It is not playing favorites when the robots do as they are programmed (yes, intentionally said to spark protest).

Those who are born again were foreknown and given the ability to believe from God. Those who repent were given repentance from God. Those who have faith were given so from God. Those who come to Christ were given by God. Those who have salvation were given it from God.

There is nothing I have that wasn't given unto me.

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 1st 2009, 05:21 PM
I agree with what you have said here, man - unbelieving heart. God knows when someone is given over but we can judge by fruit. My point was in regards to a special move and/or moment of drawing by the Spirit that is absent from Scripture.

Where is unbelieving Israel saved in Scripture? They're not. Ever! There is always a believing remnant. When scripture speaks of no one resisting His will it is towards the likes of Pharaoh (Rom 9), Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus (Isa 45/Rom 9) etc...and is for the purpose of Christ coming in the flesh. When it says mercy to whom He has mercy it is direct refference to Him showing Israel mercy after their rebellion in the wilderness so that He will bring Christ in the flesh. Context! That is ALL the context says through the cross references Romans 9 is pointing us to! (minus Nebuchadnezzar of course)

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So you don't think Paul is stating that God can have compassion on anyone of us(past, present, future) in the verse above and that he was only specifically mentioning God having compassion on Israel? If your answer is yes, then I would have to disagree. My thought would be that he is saying that he can have mercy on anyone, including the Gentiles, Israel as a nation, etc, etc. So I don't think what FIA said was out of context.

Mercy is something that God can use on anyone of us at a given time. God will indeed have mercy and compassion on who he will have mercy and compassion on. Israel as a nation was given over to an unbelieving heart, so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. Thus, God is demonstrating mercy on the Gentiles through Israel's unbelief. God can do the same to anyone of us today.

We need to be careful with automatically assumming that every verse must be used in reference to a particular passage, or that it's purpose is only meant to be applied to a particular point in time or people. If this were truly the case..we wouldn't be able to use the bible as a relevant basis for understanding, learning, and teaching about how anyone - regardless of their background - should come to have a relationship with God today.

Sirus
Feb 1st 2009, 06:12 PM
Did the same Potter leave no choice in Jer 18? Those vessels made some choices and it doesn't say or imply they were made to make the choices but that they were not. You are applying Romans 9 (reformed/calvin POV) Pharaoh's and Cyrus' to all mankind. Why?No, what I am saying is those He foreknew, he predestined. Those who are not predestined, He never knew. It is not playing favorites when the robots do as they are programmed (yes, intentionally said to spark protest).

Those who are born again were foreknown and given the ability to believe from God. Those who repent were given repentance from God. Those who have faith were given so from God. Those who come to Christ were given by God. Those who have salvation were given it from God.

There is nothing I have that wasn't given unto me.You didn't address the choice given by the Potter in Jer 18 at all. All you did was repeat your theological points.

Predestination is not election. Until you grasp that you'll remain in predetermination mode.

Show me, in context, repentance given to individuals by God, not a group like Gentiles, for initial salvation and faith towards him. You are out of context. Paul wrote that around 61AD for those that oppose themselves, like for example Simon the sorcerer or those making shipwreck the faith or maybe those going back under the law and fallen from grace.

given ability to believe? (created in His image with a spirit and soul)
given faith? (created in His image with a spirit and soul)
given Christ? (created in His image with a spirit and soul)
given salvation? (created in His image with a spirit and soul)

You are pulling verses out of context and applying a meaning to them scripture not only doesn't but that other scripture contradicts. That's why everyone throws their hands up and says it's something we can't understand. Because they don't. They won't as long as they pull verses out of context like John 16:7-11 as you have.

Certainly I agree and have said the grace and salvation is all him but we have the faith given to all in His image, having a spirit from Him. Faith, not some external or internal power, it's just trust. Because we are His offspring we can trust Him and are not far from Him. There's no gift of faith at some moment of salvation. That's completely foreign to scripture.

faith comes by hearing the word -gospel..................

This concept is seen throughout Scripture. Read Hebrews 11. Man is given a promise of God and has faith in the God of that promise. The gospel goes back to Genesis 3. When a sinner hears the gospel the hope, that is the gospel, is that the spirit that is willing (while the flesh is weak) and from God will respond to his creator in repentance and faith. The promise from God comes first!

So if the spirit is from God and the gospel is from God certainly salvation is of God.
So did God give them a heart to believe? If you believe the heart is the spirit from God in man, then yes, but then all men have a spirit, so???? Then question then is why some believe the gospel and others don't? My bible says men love darkness rather than light. It says we have faith in God. That we believe. It doesn't say God arbitrarily ordained some to believe and damned others. Sorry!

..............it doesn't say faith comes as a gift by the Spirit

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

No tares to separate from the wheat here!!!!

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

This is why we are told to preach the gospel. The messenger is irrelevant. The power is in the message -word -gospel. It stirs faith, it brings forth fruit.

Sirus
Feb 1st 2009, 06:50 PM
I agree with what you have said here, man - unbelieving heart. God knows when someone is given over but we can judge by fruit. My point was in regards to a special move and/or moment of drawing by the Spirit that is absent from Scripture.

Where is unbelieving Israel saved in Scripture? They're not. Ever! There is always a believing remnant. When scripture speaks of no one resisting His will it is towards the likes of Pharaoh (Rom 9), Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus (Isa 45/Rom 9) etc...and is for the purpose of Christ coming in the flesh. When it says mercy to whom He has mercy it is direct refference to Him showing Israel mercy after their rebellion in the wilderness so that He will bring Christ in the flesh. Context! That is ALL the context says through the cross references Romans 9 is pointing us to! (minus Nebuchadnezzar of course)2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So you don't think Paul is stating that God can have compassion on anyone of us(past, present, future) in the verse above and that he was only specifically mentioning God having compassion on Israel? If your answer is yes, then I would have to disagree. My thought would be that he is saying that he can have mercy on anyone, including the Gentiles, Israel as a nation, etc, etc. So I don't think what FIA said was out of context.

Mercy is something that God can use on anyone of us at a given time. God will indeed have mercy and compassion on who he will have mercy and compassion on. Israel as a nation was given over to an unbelieving heart, so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. Thus, God is demonstrating mercy on the Gentiles through Israel's unbelief. God can do the same to anyone of us today.I never said He cannot have compassion on anyone He chooses or that He hasn't had compassion towards individuals others than the group (Israel) in the text (Rom 9) or other groups for that matter like the Ninevites. If people want a passages that says God decides arbitrarily for all individuals then they need to find one that says that. Romans 9 does not.

Israel was blinded and cut off because of their own unbelief, not arbitrarily by God.



We need to be careful with automatically assumming that every verse must be used in reference to a particular passage, or that it's purpose is only meant to be applied to a particular point in time or people. If this were truly the case..we wouldn't be able to use the bible as a relevant basis for understanding, learning, and teaching about how anyone - regardless of their background - should come to have a relationship with God today.I don't find it necessary to jump around out of context to make my theology work. The Bible makes perfect sense when read just as it is written. When Romans 9 quotes Isaiah 45 and Exodus 33 it is to draw our attention to the OT scripture for affirmation, not contradiction. Even in Jesus' day this was the method of discussing scripture. The popular portion of scripture was quoted to draw attention to the entire passage and context. When we begin to step away from the context and purpose of the two passages (OT/NT) and the message and intent of the original author then we end up perverting and twisting the teachings of Paul just as Peter said many were doing even then. This never stopped, and why would we think it did, since the church gets worse and worse not better and better?

Butch5
Feb 1st 2009, 07:56 PM
You didn't address the choice given by the Potter in Jer 18 at all. All you did was repeat your theological points.

Predestination is not election. Until you grasp that you'll remain in predetermination mode.

Show me, in context, repentance given to individuals by God, not a group like Gentiles, for initial salvation and faith towards him. You are out of context. Paul wrote that around 61AD for those that oppose themselves, like for example Simon the sorcerer or those making shipwreck the faith or maybe those going back under the law and fallen from grace.

given ability to believe? (created in His image with a spirit and soul)
given faith? (created in His image with a spirit and soul)
given Christ? (created in His image with a spirit and soul)
given salvation? (created in His image with a spirit and soul)

You are pulling verses out of context and applying a meaning to them scripture not only doesn't but that other scripture contradicts. That's why everyone throws their hands up and says it's something we can't understand. Because they don't. They won't as long as they pull verses out of context like John 16:7-11 as you have.

Certainly I agree and have said the grace and salvation is all him but we have the faith given to all in His image, having a spirit from Him. Faith, not some external or internal power, it's just trust. Because we are His offspring we can trust Him and are not far from Him. There's no gift of faith at some moment of salvation. That's completely foreign to scripture.

faith comes by hearing the word -gospel..................

This concept is seen throughout Scripture. Read Hebrews 11. Man is given a promise of God and has faith in the God of that promise. The gospel goes back to Genesis 3. When a sinner hears the gospel the hope, that is the gospel, is that the spirit that is willing (while the flesh is weak) and from God will respond to his creator in repentance and faith. The promise from God comes first!

So if the spirit is from God and the gospel is from God certainly salvation is of God.
So did God give them a heart to believe? If you believe the heart is the spirit from God in man, then yes, but then all men have a spirit, so???? Then question then is why some believe the gospel and others don't? My bible says men love darkness rather than light. It says we have faith in God. That we believe. It doesn't say God arbitrarily ordained some to believe and damned others. Sorry!

..............it doesn't say faith comes as a gift by the Spirit

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

No tares to separate from the wheat here!!!!

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

This is why we are told to preach the gospel. The messenger is irrelevant. The power is in the message -word -gospel. It stirs faith, it brings forth fruit.


Well said my friend!

Butch5
Feb 1st 2009, 07:59 PM
I never said He cannot have compassion on anyone He chooses or that He hasn't had compassion towards individuals others than the group (Israel) in the text (Rom 9) or other groups for that matter like the Ninevites. If people want a passages that says God decides arbitrarily for all individuals then they need to find one that says that. Romans 9 does not.

Israel was blinded and cut off because of their own unbelief, not arbitrarily by God.


I don't find it necessary to jump around out of context to make my theology work. The Bible makes perfect sense when read just as it is written. When Romans 9 quotes Isaiah 45 and Exodus 33 it is to draw our attention to the OT scripture for affirmation, not contradiction. Even in Jesus' day this was the method of discussing scripture. The popular portion of scripture was quoted to draw attention to the entire passage and context. When we begin to step away from the context and purpose of the two passages (OT/NT) and the message and intent of the original author then we end up perverting and twisting the teachings of Paul just as Peter said many were doing even then. This never stopped, and why would we think it did, since the church gets worse and worse not better and better?

Very well said, context is everything!

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 1st 2009, 08:48 PM
I never said He cannot have compassion on anyone He chooses or that He hasn't had compassion towards individuals others than the group (Israel) in the text (Rom 9) or other groups for that matter like the Ninevites. If people want a passages that says God decides arbitrarily for all individuals then they need to find one that says that. Romans 9 does not.

Israel was blinded and cut off because of their own unbelief, not arbitrarily by God.


I never stated that God decides arbitrarily. I did state that God has the ultimate discretion on who he can decide to have mercy on. Israel's unbelief was part of God's plan, or as per the below..



Romans 11:8-12

as it is written...

God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear,
to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they may not see,
and make their backs bend continually.”

I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration bring?


So Israel was purposely blinded by God to bring Gentiles into the fold.



I don't find it necessary to jump around out of context to make my theology work.


Okay, neither do I and nor do many others. That's what I was getting at. We sometimes highlight popular verses, like Paul did above..so that we will quickly get to the heart of what is being discussed. Sometimes using the entire passsage is important..sometimes it is not. God bless.