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Blake Henry
Jan 24th 2009, 01:39 AM
I'm new to being a Christian and have a question about the return of Christ. The Bible states that He will return for a thousand year reign.

Q: Why is Jesus returning for only a thousand years?

Why not forever?

Peace

Blake

ZDOxcar
Jan 24th 2009, 02:02 AM
Hi Blake:

When our Lord comes back, He is coming back for good! When He comes back, there is a Thousand Year period, called the Millenium, where He will chain and lock Satan into the Abyss for 1000 years so that Satan cannot deceive the nations anymore.

After the Millenium, Satan will be released from the Abyss, will gather armies to destroy Jeruselum, but Satan will finally be destroyed by being tossed into the Lake of Fire.

I realize this is an abbreviated post, I'm sure others can add more to the Millenium. But the surrounding details of the Millenium are contained in Rev 19 and Rev 20.

quiet dove
Jan 24th 2009, 02:52 AM
After the Millennial reign (the 1000 years) is eternity, so Jesus never leaves, or comes and goes.

We also know that as believers, we are to be with Him always. When we die, regardless of Millennial time on earth or eternity, we are always with Him. :pp

mikebr
Jan 24th 2009, 03:04 AM
Read First Corinthians 15. He is going to turn the Kingdom over to the Father.

mikebr
Jan 24th 2009, 03:07 AM
24 then comes the end, 10 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians15.htm#foot10) when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 11 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians15.htm#foot11) The last enemy to be destroyed is death, 27 12 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians15.htm#foot12) for "he subjected everything under his feet." But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

Pretty clear really:hmm:

markedward
Jan 24th 2009, 05:48 AM
Q: Why is Jesus returning for only a thousand years?

Why not forever?The Bible says that saints who were martyred by the beast (of Revelation) will reign for a thousand years. It isn't placing a limit on Christ's rule.

Teke
Jan 24th 2009, 05:29 PM
The Bible says that saints who were martyred by the beast (of Revelation) will reign for a thousand years. It isn't placing a limit on Christ's rule.

True, it says they rule with Him. And of course His rule never ends.

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

wombat
Jan 25th 2009, 02:05 AM
I'm new to being a Christian and have a question about the return of Christ. The Bible states that He will return for a thousand year reign. Q: Why is Jesus returning for only a thousand years? Why not forever?
Hi, Blake Henry! After the 1000 years of Jesus' kingdom on this world, the final judgment will occur. Then God will create a new heavens and new earth for all of us who are His people to enjoy forever and forever and forever...through all the rest of eternity!

Teke
Jan 25th 2009, 02:17 AM
Hi, Blake Henry! After the 1000 years of Jesus' kingdom on this world, the final judgment will occur. Then God will create a new heavens and new earth for all of us who are His people to enjoy forever and forever and forever...through all the rest of eternity!

That is not what scripture says.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, [B]all things are become new.

The Incarnation, Transfiguration and Resurrection is your evidence of all things, which includes creation, being new.

mikebr
Jan 25th 2009, 03:27 AM
24 then comes the end, 10 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians15.htm#foot10) when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 11 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians15.htm#foot11) The last enemy to be destroyed is death, 27 12 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians15.htm#foot12) for "he subjected everything under his feet." But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

Are we just going to ignore this scripture?

Spirit Driven
Jan 25th 2009, 05:21 AM
I'm new to being a Christian and have a question about the return of Christ. The Bible states that He will return for a thousand year reign.

Q: Why is Jesus returning for only a thousand years?

Why not forever?

Peace

Blake

Hello Blake Henry,

It is not that Jesus is just returning for a thousand years....

Gods plan for man is divided up into eras/ages/eons periods of time with a begin point and conclusion point.

The Era you speak of is eon 4, the millenium reign of Christ, and is actualy the only age of Gods plan for man, where God indicates to us in scripture, the length of time to pass, between the begin point and end point.

1000 years....there are 5 eras/ages/eons in Gods plan for Man.
The Pristine Earth....Era 2 that ended in the great flood of Noahs time....the dispensation of Grace era that we live in right now....the millenium reign of Christ.....the New Heaven New Earth era.....then the consumation.

All these eras share one thing in common, they have begin points, and conclusion points.

At the conclusion of the ages/eras/eons of Gods plan for man, we have the consumation of Gods plan for man.

Oh and do not be concerned about the Saints from the first Ressurection, they put on immortality, at the Ressurection.
They can never die again, even as the eras of Gods plan for man come to a conclusion and a new one begins.
Even at the consumation they do not die....they are immortal....immortal beings do not die.


Peace

wombat
Jan 25th 2009, 08:15 AM
That is not what scripture says.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, [B]all things are become new.

The Incarnation, Transfiguration and Resurrection is your evidence of all things, which includes creation, being new.
Hi, Teke! Check out Revelation 20:7 through 21:5.

braininjured
Jan 25th 2009, 09:49 PM
Hi Blake:

When our Lord comes back, He is coming back for good! When He comes back, there is a Thousand Year period, called the Millenium, where He will chain and lock Satan into the Abyss for 1000 years so that Satan cannot deceive the nations anymore.

After the Millenium, Satan will be released from the Abyss, will gather armies to destroy Jeruselum, but Satan will finally be destroyed by being tossed into the Lake of Fire.

I realize this is an abbreviated post, I'm sure others can add more to the Millenium. But the surrounding details of the Millenium are contained in Rev 19 and Rev 20.

taking your interpretations a little far, no? :help:

wombat
Jan 25th 2009, 11:10 PM
It is not that Jesus is just returning for a thousand years.... Gods plan for man is divided up into eras/ages/eons periods of time with a begin point and conclusion point.
The Era you speak of is eon 4, the millenium reign of Christ, and is actualy the only age of Gods plan for man, where God indicates to us in scripture, the length of time to pass, between the begin point and end point.
there are 5 eras/ages/eons in Gods plan for Man.
The Pristine Earth....Era 2 that ended in the great flood of Noahs time....the dispensation of Grace era that we live in right now....the millenium reign of Christ.....the New Heaven New Earth era.....then the consumation.All these eras share one thing in common, they have begin points, and conclusion points.
At the conclusion of the ages/eras/eons of Gods plan for man, we have the consumation of Gods plan for man.
Even at the consumation they do not die....they are immortal....immortal beings do not die.
Hi, Spirit Driven! One era got left out here...the period after Noah's family began to resettle the earth, God made covenant with Jacob, the Exodus from Egypt occurred, and Israel became a nation, followed later by their captivity years. This era is nearly the entire Old Testament period.

I'm also not sure what you mean as a conclusion or consummation occurring after the New Heaven and New Earth era. From what I understand of the new heaven and new earth, it will be eternal, never-ending, and we will dwell with the Lord forever. It is before the new heaven/earth are formed that the Great White Throne judgment occurs (check out the chronology of events in Revelation 20-21).

wombat
Jan 25th 2009, 11:17 PM
taking your interpretations a little far, no? :help:
Hi, Braininjured! I would agree with the interpretation provided by ZDOxcar. How do you feel that Revelation 20-21 should be interpreted?

Teke
Jan 26th 2009, 02:13 AM
Hi, Teke! Check out Revelation 20:7 through 21:5.

No need. The Apostles witnessed the transfiguration of Jesus. IOW the grace of God transforming creation in the new creation of Christ. A transfiguration by grace has occurred.

The Parson
Jan 26th 2009, 02:22 AM
No need. The Apostles witnessed the transfiguration of Jesus. IOW the grace of God transforming creation in the new creation of Christ. A transfiguration by grace has occurred.Interesting Teke. So you don't believe in a lteral New Heaven and New Earth? I'm sorry, am I missing something here?

Teke
Jan 26th 2009, 02:59 AM
Interesting Teke. So you don't believe in a lteral New Heaven and New Earth? I'm sorry, am I missing something here?

I do believe in such. I just choose to compare it to the new creation, Jesus, by the Incarnation, along with the Transfiguration. The result being the Resurrection.

God did not call me to preach or speak of anything except Jesus the Son of God. So that is the only source I can draw from. Whether I understand it all (the culmination of all things) is secondary to that point.

Spirit Driven
Jan 26th 2009, 05:08 AM
Hi, Spirit Driven! One era got left out here...the period after Noah's family began to resettle the earth, God made covenant with Jacob, the Exodus from Egypt occurred, and Israel became a nation, followed later by their captivity years. This era is nearly the entire Old Testament period.

I'm also not sure what you mean as a conclusion or consummation occurring after the New Heaven and New Earth era. From what I understand of the new heaven and new earth, it will be eternal, never-ending, and we will dwell with the Lord forever. It is before the new heaven/earth are formed that the Great White Throne judgment occurs (check out the chronology of events in Revelation 20-21).

The Bible ends in the New Heaven New Earth era...yes....but that is not the end scenario...near the end of the Bible we have God declaring, Lo New am I making all. (as in still in the process of doing so)

Part of the punishment of the wicked is to not only suffer affliction, then die to Sin in the lake of fire...but to also miss out on the New Heaven New Earth Era, asleep in death, when God tabernacles with Men.

Now go back in Scripture, and look for the order of Salvation...From 1 Corinthians 15...

23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father,

The Wicked sure miss out on an awfull lot eh! You would think that would be enough for those who live to threaten others, but unfortunatly it quite often is not....because it is God doing the hardening.

Not my place to change their view....If I missed an eon I can only say....ooops!

Peace

quiet dove
Jan 26th 2009, 08:37 PM
The Bible ends in the New Heaven New Earth era...yes....but that is not the end scenario...near the end of the Bible we have God declaring, Lo New am I making all. (as in still in the process of doing so)

Part of the punishment of the wicked is to not only suffer affliction, then die to Sin in the lake of fire...but to also miss out on the New Heaven New Earth Era, asleep in death, when God tabernacles with Men.

Now go back in Scripture, and look for the order of Salvation...From 1 Corinthians 15...

23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father,

The Wicked sure miss out on an awfull lot eh! You would think that would be enough for those who live to threaten others, but unfortunatly it quite often is not....because it is God doing the hardening.

Not my place to change their view....If I missed an eon I can only say....ooops!

Peace

I don't get what you are saying, are you saying the New Heaven and New Earth are not eternity? And that the people who die without Christ are in the Lake of Fire temporarily "dieing to sin" as opposed to suffering eternal judgment/punishment?

The Parson
Jan 27th 2009, 02:35 PM
I believe I understand what you are saying Teke. Facts are that if we don't take the scriptures for what they are plainly saying, there is heaps of room for conjecture. That is something I personally like to avoid like the plague.

Teke
Jan 27th 2009, 04:13 PM
I believe I understand what you are saying Teke. Facts are that if we don't take the scriptures for what they are plainly saying, there is heaps of room for conjecture. That is something I personally like to avoid like the plague.

What is plainly written depends on what your reading. There are how many translations, transliterations etc of scripture.........which plain written text does one refer to.

I hope you do understand what I am saying. Because as Christians we are charged to preach Christ and nothing else. As He said, "I AM THE TRUTH". That tells me that anything outside of Him IS conjecture. Christians do not base their beliefs on conjecture. Because the truth of Jesus is not conjecture, but has many witnesses for us.

So while chiliasm (thousand yr reign of Christ on earth) still rears it's head throughout history, it was defeated by the church (declared heresy) long ago with the dogma of Christ.

The age of western rationalism will pass away as have all the other ages, but Christ and His Church will reamain unto ages of ages. Of that I am certain because it is a living reality.

wombat
Jan 31st 2009, 04:36 AM
So while chiliasm (thousand yr reign of Christ on earth) still rears it's head throughout history, it was defeated by the church (declared heresy) long ago with the dogma of Christ.

Hello, Teke--I had to look up that word chiliasm, because I hadn't heard it before. From what I have learned about it in my research, the belief in a 1000-year reign of Jesus on earth is not heresy, but was taught by our early church fathers. Gnostics were opponents of the teaching. Am I understanding you correctly that you believe the teaching of the Millennial Reign of Christ is heresy? Also, what do you mean when you refer to the "dogma of Christ"?

The Parson
Jan 31st 2009, 03:34 PM
wombat,

The teaching is a form of preterism which in part is a form of amillenialism. The "a" at the beginning of the word meaning no or not. For instance someone who believes in a literal 1000 year reign is called a millenialist whereas someone who believes that the 1000 years actually represents a day is a amillenialist. The derivative Greek word for millenialism is chiliasm.

Originally the RCC started throwing folks in jail for believing in a literal reign because, and I'm still not too sure the reasoning, it somehow went against the authority of what was known as the visible church with it's visible head on earth (the pope).

Teke
Jan 31st 2009, 06:08 PM
Hello, Teke--I had to look up that word chiliasm, because I hadn't heard it before. From what I have learned about it in my research, the belief in a 1000-year reign of Jesus on earth is not heresy, but was taught by our early church fathers. Gnostics were opponents of the teaching. Am I understanding you correctly that you believe the teaching of the Millennial Reign of Christ is heresy? Also, what do you mean when you refer to the "dogma of Christ"?

There are early fathers who wrote about it. But it was considered heresy at the second ecumenical council (381 AD). Bear in mind this is during the time when the Trinity and the Nicene Creed were being formulated. Chiliasm was presented by 'Apollinarius' at the second council, and was refuted because it caused division, in the mind of the believers, of the eternal Kingdom.

Some heretics described it as a time of bodily pleasure, while others described it in a more spiritual way. But all alike taught that it was distinct from the eternal Kingdom, which was to open afterwards. That the eternal Kingdom opens afterwards contradicts the teachings of Jesus. Those being that the Kingdom is open to all through Him if they repent.

This is why the addition was made to the Nicene Creed stating Christ's Kingdom would have no end, in the words, "and of His Kingdom there shall be no end".

The second council followed the first one which defeated Arian who believed Christ to be only a created creature. The first council established His Divinity. The second council was called mainly because of one Macedonias who believed the Holy Spirit was not God but a created being.

The misunderstandings of Revelation chapter 20 centered on the word "thousand", which in Greek in apocalyptic literature is an adjective denoting an unknown amount of time or never ending amount.
The heresy also contradicts many scriptures. ie. Eph. 5:14, Col. 3:1, 2:12 and Eph. 2:5-6

My comment "dogma of Christ" refers to His Divinity.

ScottJohnson
Jan 31st 2009, 08:50 PM
wombat,

The teaching is a form of preterism which in part is a form of amillenialism. The "a" at the beginning of the word meaning no or not. For instance someone who believes in a literal 1000 year reign is called a millenialist whereas someone who believes that the 1000 years actually represents a day is a amillenialist. The derivative Greek word for millenialism is chiliasm.

Originally the RCC started throwing folks in jail for believing in a literal reign because, and I'm still not too sure the reasoning, it somehow went against the authority of what was known as the visible church with it's visible head on earth (the pope).
Begging your pardon, Parson, but if I could ask you two questions.

1) Are you saying that "chiliasm" is a form of a-millennial preterism? I have always been under the impression that chiliasm is nothing more than another word for millennialism or pre-millennialism. Based on Rev 20, the belief that upon Christ's return to Earth, He will establish a literal and physical kingdom in which He will reign for exactly one thousand years.

2) As an a-millennialist myself, I was curious as to where the idea came from that an a-millennialist is one that believe that one day is equal to 1,000 years? I've always felt that my own amill beliefs were based on a rejection of the futurist view of Rev 20 and an acceptance of the idea that the 1,000 years refers to an undisclosed yet finite period of time between the the first and second advents of Christ.

For what it's worth. I pretty much view the 1,000 years as one day concept as a hyperbolic idiom possibly representing God's patient endurance with creation or simply God's perspective from eternity.

wombat
Jan 31st 2009, 09:04 PM
wombat, The teaching is a form of preterism which in part is a form of amillenialism. The "a" at the beginning of the word meaning no or not. For instance someone who believes in a literal 1000 year reign is called a millenialist whereas someone who believes that the 1000 years actually represents a day is a amillenialist. The derivative Greek word for millenialism is chiliasm. Originally the RCC started throwing folks in jail for believing in a literal reign because, and I'm still not too sure the reasoning, it somehow went against the authority of what was known as the visible church with it's visible head on earth (the pope).
Thank you for this information! This helps clear up some confusion!

Teke
Jan 31st 2009, 09:19 PM
Originally the RCC started throwing folks in jail for believing in a literal reign because, and I'm still not too sure the reasoning, it somehow went against the authority of what was known as the visible church with it's visible head on earth (the pope).

To follow up on my previous post and address what The Parson has posted here. I want to add that the Roman church (RCC) wasn't present at the second ecumenical council (as far as I know), but agreed with the decisions.

So I wouldn't know what the RC could have formulated from the decisions of that council. They apparently disagreed in some aspects on the Holy Spirit, not in that it was created, but that it proceeded from the Son (aka filoque clause), which is in contradiction to the ecumenical councils.

Anyway, I don't think it has to do with what The Parson has posted on it having to do with the papacy. I'd have to see some reference, such as a formal pronouncement, as they do such things.

Initially I wanted to show that the matter is not just about what we believe it (chiliasm, thousand, millenium) to mean, but it also relates to Christology. Christians wouldn't want to sound contradictory on such matters, as that would misrepresent the faith.

The Parson
Jan 31st 2009, 09:33 PM
Begging your pardon, Parson, but if I could ask you two questions.

1) Are you saying that "chiliasm" is a form of a-millennial preterism? I have always been under the impression that chiliasm is nothing more than another word for millennialism or pre-millennialism. Based on Rev 20, the belief that upon Christ's return to Earth, He will establish a literal and physical kingdom in which He will reign for exactly one thousand years.

Bee's Knees Louise! Read it again Scott, that's what I said... "The derivative Greek word for millenialism (not amillenialism) is chiliasm."



2) As an a-millennialist myself, I was curious as to where the idea came from that an a-millennialist is one that believe that one day is equal to 1,000 years? I've always felt that my own amill beliefs were based on a rejection of the futurist view of Rev 20 and an acceptance of the idea that the 1,000 years refers to an undisclosed yet finite period of time between the the first and second advents of Christ.

For what it's worth. I pretty much view the 1,000 years as one day concept as a hyperbolic idiom possibly representing God's patient endurance with creation or simply God's perspective from eternity.The historic Baptist amill position is that it is a literal day and not a literal thousand years.

ScottJohnson
Jan 31st 2009, 10:11 PM
Bee's Knees Louise! Read it again Scott, that's what I said... "The derivative Greek word for millenialism (not amillenialism) is chiliasm."
Ummm sorry

The historic the Baptist amill position is that it is a literal day and not a literal thousand years.
Interesting. I never thought of Baptist Church as anything other than pre-mill but I guess that prior to the 19th century they probably would have been.

The Parson
Jan 31st 2009, 10:29 PM
Ummm sorry

Interesting. I never thought of Baptist Church as anything other than pre-mill but I guess that prior to the 19th century they probably would have been.Scott, pretribulational rapture is new stuff to the brethren.

Their main thrust was the tenuous focus on a branch of eschatology known as Premillennialism and a doctrine called Dispensationalism introduced by Clarence Larkin & Cyrus Ingerson Scofield. There is further evidence of an earlier study of the Pre-Tribulational doctrine dated 1742-44