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Jemand
Jan 24th 2009, 03:41 AM
Is faith in Christ enough to save us? Is faith in Christ all that is needed for us to be born again?

Walstib
Jan 24th 2009, 03:53 AM
Hi Jemand,

You have some interesting questions here.

Maybe you could wait some time before posting all the things you want to discuss. The first two could probably have been in the same thread. If these topics become popular and you plan on participating in all of them you may get overloaded. Personally when I have a bunch of stuff I want to ask I wait between topics until it dies out past the first page.

Peace,
Joe

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 24th 2009, 04:17 AM
Yes & Yes. Justification by faith brings salvation.

Here's the thing, if it is true faith, you will bear fruit. It takes faith, and and faith alone to save, but faith without works(fruit) is dead, so if you go awhile and you notice you aren't bearing fruit, then you better double check your faith.:saint:

sheina maidle
Jan 24th 2009, 04:48 AM
Yes & Yes. Justification by faith brings salvation.

Here's the thing, if it is true faith, you will bear fruit. It takes faith, and and faith alone to save, but faith without works(fruit) is dead, so if you go awhile and you notice you aren't bearing fruit, then you better double check your faith.:saint:
I agree....saving faith will always result in fruit. Spiritual growth is not the same for every Christian....nevertheless, there will be fruit...some thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, and some an hundredfold. Salvation brings change in behavior and lifestyle.

Clydson
Jan 24th 2009, 04:56 AM
Is faith in Christ enough to save us? Is faith in Christ all that is needed for us to be born again?
Greetings Jemand.

If you mean obedient faith in Christ, then yes. However, if you mean faith alone, then no.

Jake

Ixthus
Jan 24th 2009, 05:05 AM
Yes to both

John 3:15 and 16

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 2:8
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God

2nd Timothy 3:16

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

My heart's Desire
Jan 24th 2009, 05:17 AM
Is faith in Christ enough to save us? Is faith in Christ all that is needed for us to be born again?Yes, it is! If you trust that He died for your sin and did all that was needed to reconcile you to God the Father.
Isn't He enough?

Clydson
Jan 24th 2009, 05:26 AM
Yes to both

John 3:15 and 16

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 2:8
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God

2nd Timothy 3:16

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Greetings.

There are many good folk who would agree with your conclusion, however, I'm not one of them. Scripture, I believe, does not contradict itself, thus, when several scriptures seem to do so, it is always human thinking that is incorrect.

Paul wrote that the gospel of Christ was God's power to save those who believe, Rom 1:16. Many seem to think that belief without obedience is all that is required to be saved. This is very wrong.

Peter asks a very revealing and pertinent question; "...what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

Why didn't he say "believe" instead of "obey"? Can one disobey the gospel and his faith still save him? I don't believe so...

Jake

crossnote
Jan 24th 2009, 05:54 AM
Is faith in Christ enough to save us? Is faith in Christ all that is needed for us to be born again?

Actually our faith is very small, but it is Christ who saves us. Faith is the empty hand that takes hold of Christ and the promises in Him.
To the second part I believe that the Gospel heard creates saving faith;
the same Gospel with the Holy Spirit regenerates a person simultaneously creating faith in Him...IMHO.

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2009, 03:29 AM
Peter asks a very revealing and pertinent question; "...what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

Why didn't he say "believe" instead of "obey"? Can one disobey the gospel and his faith still save him? I don't believe so...

Jake
The gospel is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. What is it that obeys the gospel. When you believe you have obeyed by believing the Gospel.
Those who disobey are those who will not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. God tells us to believe, if you do, you are obeying, if you don't believe then you are disobeying.

For sake of discussion, if faith in Christ is not obeying tell me what we are to obey in order to be saved?

Butch5
Jan 25th 2009, 04:29 AM
Greetings.

There are many good folk who would agree with your conclusion, however, I'm not one of them. Scripture, I believe, does not contradict itself, thus, when several scriptures seem to do so, it is always human thinking that is incorrect.

Paul wrote that the gospel of Christ was God's power to save those who believe, Rom 1:16. Many seem to think that belief without obedience is all that is required to be saved. This is very wrong.

Peter asks a very revealing and pertinent question; "...what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

Why didn't he say "believe" instead of "obey"? Can one disobey the gospel and his faith still save him? I don't believe so...

Jake

Well said my friend, well said.

Butch5
Jan 25th 2009, 04:44 AM
No and no.

Think about it, if believing in Jesus was all that was required than the devils would have been saved too. There is at least one more example I can think of right off hand of someone believing and not being saved.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

This verse says it all. It doesn't say He will have mercy on whom believes. It says on whoever He wants in not so many words. It's not a choice we make at all. And that makes the world's Christians upset because if it's true than it calls into question their own salvation. Who can bear to face that when they have so long believed they were saved.

It doesn't cause any problem, the question is who does God want to have mercy on?

My heart's Desire
Jan 25th 2009, 04:59 AM
No and no.

Think about it, if believing in Jesus was all that was required than the devils would have been saved too. . the devils believed in Jesus as in they knew who He was and that He exists. They didn't believe in Him for salvation. They knew they were already condemned. The proof is like in the pig story. The demons begged Jesus not to send them to the abyss. They knew that was their destiny.

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 25th 2009, 06:23 AM
If it requires more than faith then we are all in big trouble. We are not capable of anything but faith. It is faith alone that saves, it is faith that allows us to bear fruit. Are we saved after faith but before we begin bearing fruit? Yes.

Works sanctify, faith saves.

Joe King
Jan 25th 2009, 06:25 AM
Does anyone know what verses refer to our faith being our works and let our works accompany us??

rom826
Jan 25th 2009, 06:40 AM
Is faith in Christ enough to save us? Is faith in Christ all that is needed for us to be born again?

People need to confess Him as Lord also

Rom 10:9



That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


When someone believes God raised Jesus from the dead and that belief is followed by confessing Him as Lord.

Unfortunately, many people want to make the requirement for salvation something different than what scripture says. Scripture says in Rom 10:9 what we must do to get saved.

Clydson
Jan 26th 2009, 12:51 AM
Peter asks a very revealing and pertinent question; "...what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

Why didn't he say "believe" instead of "obey"? Can one disobey the gospel and his faith still save him? I don't believe so...

Jake


The gospel is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. What is it that obeys the gospel. When you believe you have obeyed by believing the Gospel.
Those who disobey are those who will not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. God tells us to believe, if you do, you are obeying, if you don't believe then you are disobeying.

For sake of discussion, if faith in Christ is not obeying tell me what we are to obey in order to be saved?
Greetings Desire.

As I said previously, there are many who believe in "faith alone" saves. I'm not one of them.

I agree, however, that faith is a work. It is a work unto salvation. Without faith in Christ, one cannot please God.

There are many elements that scripture presents as being salvific. The fact that the gospel is God's power to save us then means anything that the New Testament says saves us is an element of the gospel of Christ. Consider;

Rom 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
NKJV

Can one be saved that refuses to confess Jesus?

This confession is salvific, thus it is an element of the gospel of Christ and necessary for eternal salvation.

Actually, there are a number of elements such as confessing Christ that are elements of the Gospel and required for man to do unto his salvation.

Jake

Clydson
Jan 26th 2009, 12:52 AM
Well said my friend, well said.
Thanks Butch. I appreciate your confidence.

Jake

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 12:56 AM
It's a total package. The born again does one, he has done them all.

You cannot be saved unless you are elected.

Does election save you? As much as faith saves you. Does faith save you? As much as enduring to the end saves you. Does enduring to the end save you? As much as believing in Christ saves you.

If a person does one, he does them all. The born again cannot do one without the other.

Clydson
Jan 26th 2009, 01:06 AM
It's a total package. The born again does one, he has done them all.

You cannot be saved unless you are elected.

Does election save you? As much as faith saves you. Does faith save you? As much as enduring to the end saves you. Does enduring to the end save you? As much as believing in Christ saves you.

If a person does one, he does them all. The born again cannot do one without the other.
Greetings Y.

I disagree with your presumption. The language of Paul so teaches that even those who believe may do so in vain;

1 Cor 15:1-2
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.
NKJV

Believing in vain does not mean unbelief, for even the demons believe. There is another commodity that brings vanity, disobedience ("if you hold fast").

Jake

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 01:23 AM
Greetings Y.

I disagree with your presumption. The language of Paul so teaches that even those who believe may do so in vain;

1 Cor 15:1-2
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.
NKJV

Believing in vain does not mean unbelief, for even the demons believe. There is another commodity that brings vanity, disobedience ("if you hold fast").

Jake

I don't disagree with you and maybe I didn't make myself clear. There is a belief in Christ that does not endure to the end. There is a faith in Christ that does not endure to the end. There is a belief that one may be born again and that one does not endure to the end.

However, the born again are saved by one and all.

The born again are saved by faith.
The born again are saved by being elected.
The born again are saved by enduring to the end.

The born again are saved by being born again. If someone is born again, it is not one characteristic of the born again that saved them, it was that they were born again.

My heart's Desire
Jan 26th 2009, 01:33 AM
Greetings Desire.

As I said previously, there are many who believe in "faith alone" saves. I'm not one of them.

I agree, however, that faith is a work. It is a work unto salvation. Without faith in Christ, one cannot please God.

There are many elements that scripture presents as being salvific. The fact that the gospel is God's power to save us then means anything that the New Testament says saves us is an element of the gospel of Christ. Consider;

Rom 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
NKJV

Can one be saved that refuses to confess Jesus?

This confession is salvific, thus it is an element of the gospel of Christ and necessary for eternal salvation.

Actually, there are a number of elements such as confessing Christ that are elements of the Gospel and required for man to do unto his salvation.

Jake
I just don't see how faith is a work. Work is something you do, Faith is something you believe with.
I believe that confessing and believing are 2 sides of the same coin of faith.

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 01:34 AM
But the bible doesn't make that distinction. I won't say this dogmatically but nowhere does the bible say one must believe Him for salvation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It wouldn't matter anyway because the bible states that even if we don't believe at all, it doesn't make a difference. It doesn't because it's not our faith that saves us. It's only the faith of Christ that saves and that's the only faith that matters. The faith that saves has to be Christ's faith alone. If our faith assisted in anyway in our salvation then that's the equivalent of stealing some glory from God and giving it to man. That just isn't going to happen. It's got to be all of God and none of man. Not some of God and some of man.

Of course, I know that there is no professing free will Christian alive anywhere that I know of who would admit that that's what is happening. They will say "Of course I give all the glory to God. How is having faith stealing away glory from Him? I will never think of trying to do that." But that's what it is. It's like saying God can't save one who doesn't believe. If one believes that to be the case then they also must believe that God needs man to help God in the salvation process. Which equals God needing man which leads us to man ultimately in charge of our own salvation and not God. Which then gets us some glory and takes a bit from God.

Like I said, it's not our faith that saves. It's Christ's. And when we understand that it's Christ's and not our own then all the glory can only go where it belongs. To God.

Where does Scripture say it is Christ's faith that saves us?

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 01:42 AM
I just don't see how faith is a work. Work is something you do, Faith is something you believe with.
I believe that confessing and believing are 2 sides of the same coin of faith.

Hi Desire,

The Greek word that John uses for faith, carries more than just the idea of believing, it also carries the idea of trusting someone.

Sirus
Jan 26th 2009, 02:41 AM
Right....

Is faith in Christ enough to save us? Is faith in Christ all that is needed for us to be born again?Might help to define or explain what faith is......

Ixthus
Jan 26th 2009, 02:45 AM
No and no.

Think about it, if believing in Jesus was all that was required than the devils would have been saved too. There is at least one more example I can think of right off hand of someone believing and not being saved.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

This verse says it all. It doesn't say He will have mercy on whom believes. It says on whoever He wants in not so many words. It's not a choice we make at all. And that makes the world's Christians upset because if it's true than it calls into question their own salvation. Who can bear to face that when they have so long believed they were saved.

Faith is more than just believing. Having faith is having trust as well. Therefore I disagree with your post.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 26th 2009, 03:22 AM
Hi Desire,

The Greek word that John uses for faith, carries more than just the idea of believing, it also carries the idea of trusting someone.

I agree..

One can say 'I believe'...

thou doest good if you believe in one God....well the Devils believe and they tremble... .

but when you 'believe' and 'trust' God with every aspect of your life from your marriage to your job to your children to taking your last breath... this is where the rubber hits and road... believe me my friends...

Active faith with total Trust on a Part of Born Again Christian...
its 'dynamite'.....

divaD
Jan 26th 2009, 04:17 AM
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed
in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law
shall no flesh be justified.

Again, justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.




4102 // pistiv // pistis // pis'-tis //

from 3982 ; TDNT - 6:174,849; n f

AV - faith 239, assurance 1, believe + 1537 1, belief 1,
them that believe 1, fidelity 1; 244

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a
conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and
divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and
holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and
ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal
salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is
the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in
the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence)
whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on


This Greek word is used 3 times in this chapter. Twice in the above verse, and the third time in verse 20.


Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me



I'm curious as to how you define 'faith' in this chapter, in order for it to make sense? Verse 16 sure enough says exactly what you say it does. The question remains, how do you define 'faith' here?

Vhayes
Jan 26th 2009, 04:59 AM
It isn't so much the faith that saves, it's in Whom we place that faith.

My heart's Desire
Jan 26th 2009, 05:07 AM
But the bible doesn't make that distinction. I won't say this dogmatically but nowhere does the bible say one must believe Him for salvation. Correct me if I'm wrong.


My point was this. If I'm incorrect, you were trying to say that belief only will not save and you used the devils believing as an example that humans can believe and not be saved also.
My answer to this was, the devils knew Who Jesus was and they could see Him. Of course, they believed Him as in they knew Who He was etc. When we use believe in Salvation as regarding humans believing we use it in the way of People in faith not only believe that Jesus exists but that He will save those who believe/trust Him to save them. The devils did not do this. They believed because they knew Who He was but they were condemned. Why? Because saving faith trusts Jesus to save people. Faith in someone we cannot see.

The passage you give simply tells us that even the devils believe but are not saved. Lots of people believe there is a God and many people believe certain things about God and even about Jesus, but you are right. They are kind of like the devils that could see Jesus, that believe there is a God. But that kind of belief does not save them. It is a personal trust in Jesus to save them.

My heart's Desire
Jan 26th 2009, 05:16 AM
I simply see "faith" as taking God at His Word. If He says that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day, which He does say, then I just take Him at His word and believe it for me personally.

Jesus says Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. therefore since I believe Him, I know I have eternal life. Why? because I trust Him. I believe what He says.

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 05:32 AM
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Here we see that the faith of God is all that matters. What if someone didn't believe in Jesus. Well, here it says that it doesn't matter because it's the faith of God that matters.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Again, justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Here we see that we are saved by grace through faith. But the faith isn't of ourselves, it's the gift of God. And verse 8 tells us that faith is a work anyway so we automatically should know that it can't save us. The only faith that can save us is the perfect faith of Jesus.


My friend, the faith of Jesus Christ or the faith of God, does not mean that Jesus had faith or that God had faith. The faith of Jesus Christ is the gospel message, It is what the apostles taught. It is like when we say we are of the faith, we mean the Christian faith, which is the gospel message. Jesus did not need to have faith neither did God. What is faith? Paul tells us,

Hebrews 11:1 ( KJV ) 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What things have God or Christ not seen??? What does God hope for??? They don't need evidence of things not seen, they don't need to have faith.

The subject of Ephesians 2:8 is ''saved" the method is grace and the instrument is faith. The gift is the subject, saved, being saved is a gift from God.

divaD
Jan 26th 2009, 06:18 AM
I don't think that I define the word faith any different than anyone else. I don't see myself as defining it different. Where I do
differ from most is who's faith it is that saves. Is it ours? Can't be. Now who's faith is it talking about in this chapter? Christ's
faith.


This is why I asked the questions in the last post. How is faith defined in this ch? If it's Christ's faith, what does that mean? Christ's trusts?
Christ's beliefs? Christ's assurances?

You stated that it's not our faith that saves. So, how are you defining faith in this sense? The reason I ask is because how you're defining it here, is apparently how your defining it in Christ's case.

Are you basically saying that it's not our trust that saves? Or perhaps it's not our belief that saves?

Both verses specifically state 'faith of' and not 'faith in'. And the 'faith of' is specifically referring to Christ. With that in mind, what other word would you use to define 'faith' in these 2 verses?



Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the (insert your definition of faith here) of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the (insert your definition of faith here) of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified


Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the (insert your definition of faith here) of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


If I were to insert my def for 'faith' in these 2 verses, about the only thing that makes sense to me would be 'faithfullness'. Christ remained faithful, even unto death.

But this doesn't seem to be saying the same thing you're saying, or at least what I think you're saying.

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 11:26 AM
Is faith in Christ enough to save us? Is faith in Christ all that is needed for us to be born again?

The Galatians seemed to believe that faith was not enough.

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

God bless You!

Firstfruits

sheina maidle
Jan 26th 2009, 06:23 PM
The Galatians seemed to believe that faith was not enough.

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

God bless You!

Firstfruits
That is what the "Judaizers" taught the church in Galatia...not what Paul taught. One can have faith that a chair is going to hold him...but unless one actually sits down in that chair, that "faith" is all empty words. Saving faith is also trusting faith, IMO.

dc53073
Jan 26th 2009, 06:38 PM
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Here we see that the faith of God is all that matters. What if someone didn't believe in Jesus. Well, here it says that it doesn't matter because it's the faith of God that matters.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Again, justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Here we see that we are saved by grace through faith. But the faith isn't of ourselves, it's the gift of God. And verse 8 tells us that faith is a work anyway so we automatically should know that it can't save us. The only faith that can save us is the perfect faith of Jesus.


What translation are you reading? Or are you translating the text yourself?

JordanW
Jan 26th 2009, 07:17 PM
Is faith in Christ enough to save us? Is faith in Christ all that is needed for us to be born again?
I'd like to think so, yes. I believe that when when have faith and believe in Christ, that we are in fact saved.

Vhayes
Jan 26th 2009, 07:22 PM
I'd like to think so, yes. I believe that when when have faith and believe in Christ, that we are in fact saved.
Yes, I agree.

I can have all the faith in the world that a diet of soft drinks and chocolate is good for me and live my life accordingly but the soft drinks and chocolate will let me down in the end.

Jesus will never let us down - it isn't the "amount" of our faith, it's He in Whom we place our faith.
V

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 07:41 PM
That is what the "Judaizers" taught the church in Galatia...not what Paul taught. One can have faith that a chair is going to hold him...but unless one actually sits down in that chair, that "faith" is all empty words. Saving faith is also trusting faith, IMO.

So what therefore did Paul teach concerning faith and the law that was not according to the teaching of the Judaizers?

Firstfruits

GodsamazingGrace77
Jan 26th 2009, 08:08 PM
Yes, I agree.

I can have all the faith in the world that a diet of soft drinks and chocolate is good for me and live my life accordingly but the soft drinks and chocolate will let me down in the end.

Jesus will never let us down - it isn't the "amount" of our faith, it's He in Whom we place our faith.
V

Well said, Vhayes. :)

tundra
Jan 26th 2009, 08:10 PM
Faith is a big part of it indeed, however a genuine repentance must happen also. This is what Jesus was telling Nicodemus about in John 3, when He said exactly what makes a person 'saved'. Jesus said that you must be born again. That is, you must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven.

John the Baptist was the “voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘ Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.'" He baptized people as an outward sign of an inward condition of repentance! John was the man that God sent to prepare the way for Jesus, and what was his main message? REPENT! We find this throughout Matthew 3 (NKJV):

1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” ...... 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (emphasis added)

In order to be saved, one must first repent. This means deciding to turn away from their sinful lifestyle and living for Christ. Then the acceptance of Christ's sacrifice and faith in Him to save us is applied. Of course, a person will not get to this step without first believing that Christ was the only Son of God and died for our sins. Once a person does these things, the Holy Spirit will come into them and clense them of their sins. They are now 'born again', and have become a new creation is Christ!

If you're still not convinced that repentance is one of the main keys, look at how Jesus started his ministry: :)

Matthew 4:17 (NKJV) - From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

Vhayes
Jan 26th 2009, 08:12 PM
Then I'm not saved.

There was NO repentence the moment I first accepted Christ as my savior. Only a sense of need, wonder and extreme love. The life changing came afterwards, not before.

GodsamazingGrace77
Jan 26th 2009, 08:23 PM
Then I'm not saved.

There was NO repentence the moment I first accepted Christ as my savior. Only a sense of need, wonder and extreme love. The life changing came afterwards, not before.

The same for me, also. I have repented since coming to the Lord yet I am still a big work in progress but I feel peace, comfort and love like never before! :)

Vhayes
Jan 26th 2009, 08:28 PM
The same for me, also. I have repented since coming to the Lord yet I am still a big work in progress but I feel peace, comfort and love like never before! :)
We are ALL works in progress until the day we depart this earth - take it from someone who still has a long way to go after having an awesome relationship with the Lord for almost 40 years. :D
V

GodsamazingGrace77
Jan 26th 2009, 08:37 PM
We are ALL works in progress until the day we depart this earth - take it from someone who still has a long way to go after having an awesome relationship with the Lord for almost 40 years. :D
V

You are right about everyone being a work in progress. May God always bless and keep you. :hug:

sheina maidle
Jan 26th 2009, 10:14 PM
So what therefore did Paul teach concerning faith and the law that was not according to the teaching of the Judaizers?

Firstfruits
From Willmington's Guide to the Bible:


Paul’s work in Galatia had been highly successful. Great multitudes of people, mostly Gentiles, had accepted Christ. But after he left, the Judaizers from Jerusalem (a group of legalistic gospel-perverting Jews) had come to Galatia, teaching that Gentiles must put themselves back under the bondage of the law to be saved. The Galatians had thus received their message with the same zeal that they had accepted Paul’s. There was then a general epidemic of circumcision among them.

They had not only attacked the message of Paul, but also his apostleship.

It has been said that Judaism was the cradle of Christianity and very nearly its grave. But God raised up Paul as the Moses of the Christian church to deliver believers from bondage.

The nature of Galatians:

J. Vernon McGee writes:

“It is a stern, severe, and solemn message (Galatians 1:6-9; 3:1-5) It does not correct conduct, as the Corinthian letters do, but it is corrective—the Galatian believers were in grave peril. Because the foundations were being attacked, everything was threatened. The Epistle contains no word of commendation, praise, or thanksgiving. There is no request for prayer, and there is no mention of their standing in Christ. No one with him is mentioned by name.

The heart of Paul the apostle is laid bare, there is deep emotion and strong feeling. This is his fighting epistle—he has on his war paint. He has no toleration for legalism. Someone has said that Romans comes from the head of Paul while Galatians comes from the heart of Paul. ‘Galatians takes up controversially what Romans puts systematically.’

It is the declaration of emancipation from legalism of any type. This was Martin Luther’s favorite Epistle, and it was on the masthead of the Reformation. It has been called the Magna Charta of the early church, the manifesto of Christian liberty, the impregnable citadel, and a veritable Gibraltar against any attack on the heart of the Gospel. ‘Immortal victory is set upon its brow.’

It is the strongest declaration and defense of the doctrine of justification by faith in or out of Scripture. It is God’s polemic on behalf of the most vital truth of the Christian faith against any attack.

Not only is the sinner saved by grace through faith, but the saved sinner lives by grace. Grace is a way to life and a way of life.” (Thru The Bible, pg. 108)

tundra
Jan 27th 2009, 12:52 AM
Then I'm not saved.

There was NO repentence the moment I first accepted Christ as my savior. Only a sense of need, wonder and extreme love. The life changing came afterwards, not before.

I think you are completely missing what was said............... Please read the passages over again and the reply prayerfully.

Repentance starts as a state of mind, finally it takes Jesus to clean us up. The very fact that you decided to make a decision for Christ is part of repenting. Once you come to Him, He began the process of cleaning you up and you started seeing results. God says 'Come just as you are'. He does not expect us to be clean when we come to Him, that's impossible! He is the only One that can clean us up.

See what I'm saying here? What you wrote is the first step of repentance. You acknowledged that you were lost without Him and that you need Jesus in your life...... repentance. The result was the Holy Spirit cleaning up the dirty mess that followed you from your old life.

You know the phrase "you reap what you sow"? It works both ways you know. When I was unsaved I sowed a lot of bad seeds. After I was born again some of those bad seeds I had previously sown sprouted up in my life and it was a mess for some period of time. As the Lord started cleaning me up, I started sowing good seeds. Eventually they sprouted up and bore good fruit, and the results of the bad seeds were choked out with God's help. This happens with everyone that comes out of the world. Jesus took you and I and cleaned us up, but it took some time... And it is INDEED a continual refining process for us all until the day we meet Him in the sky :)

God Bless
-Matt

Vhayes
Jan 27th 2009, 01:20 AM
Thanks for the response, Matt and I agree with all you have said in your last post. However, you did say in your initial post:


In order to be saved, one must first repent. This means deciding to turn away from their sinful lifestyle and living for Christ. Then the acceptance of Christ's sacrifice and faith in Him to save us is applied.

I'm telling you yet again, I did not repent - I accepted His gift. My changed lifestyle came as a result of the Holy Spirit guiding and leading me.

No one had to lose me before they told me how to be saved. I WAS lost. I was saved in the twinkling of an eye. None of it was about me, it was ALL about Him.

Hope that helps a bit -
V

Sirus
Jan 27th 2009, 01:34 AM
Then I'm not saved.

There was NO repentence the moment I first accepted Christ as my savior. Only a sense of need, wonder and extreme love. The life changing came afterwards, not before.Many confuse repentance with changing behavior. Repentance is not changing behavior it is changing your mind, which you did.
"sense of need, wonder and extreme love"
It was the same for me and everyone for that matter. No one is saved and born again because they stop this or that. That would make it a salvation of works. Fruit is brought forth to prove repentance, not the other way around. Unfortunately this mindset is very common in the Church as most haven't a clue what repentance is. They think they repent of a sin. The word can be applied that way but that is not how the Bible applies it, except is cases of possible apostasy.

tundra
Jan 27th 2009, 02:04 AM
Thanks for the response, Matt and I agree with all you have said in your last post. However, you did say in your initial post:



I'm telling you yet again, I did not repent - I accepted His gift. My changed lifestyle came as a result of the Holy Spirit guiding and leading me.

No one had to lose me before they told me how to be saved. I WAS lost. I was saved in the twinkling of an eye. None of it was about me, it was ALL about Him.

Hope that helps a bit -
V


Hehe, and I'm telling you yet again.... you repented :) Notice the text in bold. I said "deciding to"...... not actually changing then coming to Him.

Brother Sirus also stated it very well. Repentance is the act of changing ones mind.

God Bless!

-Matt

Vhayes
Jan 27th 2009, 02:47 AM
Ok guys, my first reaction was to say, "Phew, i sure am glad you were there and know because obviously I've forgotten!" But I do try hard NOT to be sarcastic even though it is my "normal" mode when I've decided to drive the bus and ask the Holy Spirit to take the passengers seat.

My second reaction is to say most people who screech "Repent, Repent!!!!' are telling people they are damned to hell unless they change their wicked ways and seek the savior. They ALWAYS put repent in big, bold letters before they begin with the good news of the gospel - that Christ died for your sins and salvation is freely given. And I have seen more people walk away from that type of preaching than you can imagine.

I will say again - I did not "repent" and decide to change my ways. The Holy Spirit showed me what needed mending, what needed realigned and I allowed Him that authority in my new life. But no - repent didn't figure into it at first.

Thanks again for the discussion - this is one where we will just have to disagree.
V

Sirus
Jan 27th 2009, 03:04 AM
You said "sense of need". Did that not mean your will and way was no longer sufficient and you needed God's? That's repentance.

Vhayes
Jan 27th 2009, 03:16 AM
You said "sense of need". Did that not mean your will and way was no longer sufficient and you needed God's? That's repentance.
I had realized there was a void in my life and that nothing I did could fill it for very long. Not sex, not drugs, not rock-n-roll. When I heard about the love that was in Jesus and the way He had given Himself for ME personally, I was awestruck. I became His bondservant at that point - as well as a full member of the Family of God.

So yes, I knew I needed Him to fill the void.

V

Sirus
Jan 27th 2009, 03:39 AM
Well you understood more than I! I also came from "sex, not drugs, not rock-n-roll" (I was a musician -heavy metal). My life was a mess to say the least. I had been searching 'for more' i.e God/truth.... for some time and for a week had been reading the Bible. I had a 'break down' in my car on the side of the road at 2am. I remembered from 5 years old, "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so" and called out to him. I was changed that night. I was tired on my way. It just wasn't working.

Vhayes
Jan 27th 2009, 04:07 AM
Well you understood more than I! I also came from "sex, not drugs, not rock-n-roll" (I was a musician -heavy metal). My life was a mess to say the least. I had been searching 'for more' i.e God/truth.... for some time and for a week had been reading the Bible. I had a 'break down' in my car on the side of the road at 2am. I remembered from 5 years old, "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so" and called out to him. I was changed that night. I was tired on my way. It just wasn't working.
He is awesome in the way He moves. Thank you for sharing that. Be blessed!
V

Sirus
Jan 27th 2009, 04:25 AM
He is! and thank you! I receive that blessing! Bless you!!!

My heart's Desire
Jan 27th 2009, 06:35 AM
Many confuse repentance with changing behavior. Repentance is not changing behavior it is changing your mind, which you did.
"sense of need, wonder and extreme love"
It was the same for me and everyone for that matter. No one is saved and born again because they stop this or that. That would make it a salvation of works. Fruit is brought forth to prove repentance, not the other way around. Unfortunately this mindset is very common in the Church as most haven't a clue what repentance is. They think they repent of a sin. The word can be applied that way but that is not how the Bible applies it, .Praise God! This is exactly what I've been saying all along. Repentance is a change of mind. Why? Because someone who does not see themselves as a sinner, alienated from God and needing a Savior will not change their minds (repent) about their condition and come to Jesus, because they do not see the need for it.
A person who does change their minds (repent) seeing themselves in sin, separated from God will come to Jesus to be saved. Why? Because they've heard the Good news that Christ died for them, paying the price so they could go free. That is all repentance is. That's why there is no salvation for those who do not change their minds about their need. God has and will complete the rest of it in their lives till death gives way to VICTORY after they do (repent) change their mind and trust in Him.

And if that's what it takes to be saved then what can condemn you later? NOTHING. There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION!
Now for those who think you can give away your salvation, when we do that are we not putting God on our level by thinking He can be as flighty as we humans can be? I don't believe one who truly trusts Christ will give it away and if he tries, do we really think God is so unfaithful that He would let us do it after we become one of His? That just doesn't fly with me. God's promises can be trusted so much more than we can be. If it is His Work and I believe it is then we can trust Him to finish it and it will not rest on us.

Another thing. I don't care if people disagree with me about OSAS. I Believe God. If He saves and I know He does, I believe He saves for good and forever. Why? Because I believe HIM!

sheina maidle
Jan 27th 2009, 07:31 AM
From Way of Life Encyclopedia:

Repentance is a supernatural work of God whereby a responsive sinner, being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his rebellion, turns to God from his sinful ways and trusts Jesus Christ for salvation.

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (2 Timothy 2:25)

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (John 16:8)

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18)

But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Acts 26:20)

Repentance means more than sorrow or regret or despair or grief. It is also more than mere confession or acknowledgement of sin. Bible repentance means a turning to God and a change of mind toward God that results in a change of life.

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matthew 9:12-13)

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Luke 5:32)

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. (Luke 18:13)

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Sirus
Jan 28th 2009, 02:24 AM
From Way of Life Encyclopedia:

Repentance is a supernatural work of God whereby a responsive sinner, being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his rebellion, turns to God from his sinful ways and trusts Jesus Christ for salvation.

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (2 Timothy 2:25)Calvin would be proud, but there's no scripture for repentance granted to some and not others for initial salvation. If what you believe is true we have a major contradiction. For scripture declares;

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

When 2Timothy was written around 67AD there could have been those denying or making shipwreck the faith or going back under the law. There could be those that oppose themselves like Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized but then found themselves in a state that repentance was again necessary (Act 8). Had they gone too far as to not get it back?



And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (John 16:8)
This has nothing to do with being saved. The Holy Ghost is being sent to the disciples/believers, not sinners.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

People use this to say the Spirit draws but no where in the context is there a sinner getting saved. Who is the Holy Ghost going to be sent to? The disciples/believers. Those that use this out of out context are not seeing John 16 through the revealed mystery of Christ. They have pulled out verses 8-11, separated them from v7, and applied them to their man made doctrine of sinners being drawn by the Spirit.

It is in believing the complete and finished work of Christ (gospel) that we are born again and baptized in the Spirit. Have you received since you believed? OT saints believed too, but they didn’t have the heavenly gift. Christ was not yet crucified for sin, raised, and ascended, and us with him! This is for believers, not the world. The Spirit didn’t lead them to Christ, mind you. It is because we believe in Christ we are given the heavenly gift. Believers then walk in obedience, led by the Spirit, not fulfilling the lust of the flesh, overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil (prince of this world). It is because of this the world is judged for sin, by righteousness.

Let me say that again! It is because of the natural bearing fruit of Christ in us the world is judged for sin, by righteousness. Unbelievers are guilty because of righteousness and are therefore convicted. You are convicted when guilty and at no other time are you convicted. The world is guilty because “they believe not on me”, but because you do believe Christ is risen, receive the Spirit, live holy blameless lives before men by the power of the gospel, on judgment day you will be my witnesses to the truth of the gospel. It plainly says the world rejected Christ. These are not sinners needing to be drawn. They are sinners needing to be judged!

1Pe 2:11-12 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Eph 3:9-11 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Rom 2:15-16 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.




When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18)

But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Acts 26:20)So it's now available to the Gentiles. OK???

Partaker of Christ
Jan 28th 2009, 10:06 PM
No and no.

Think about it, if believing in Jesus was all that was required than the devils would have been saved too.

Jesus did not come in the flesh, to save devils?

There sin was open rebellion.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 28th 2009, 10:23 PM
Greetings.

There are many good folk who would agree with your conclusion, however, I'm not one of them. Scripture, I believe, does not contradict itself, thus, when several scriptures seem to do so, it is always human thinking that is incorrect.

Paul wrote that the gospel of Christ was God's power to save those who believe, Rom 1:16. Many seem to think that belief without obedience is all that is required to be saved. This is very wrong.

Peter asks a very revealing and pertinent question; "...what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

Why didn't he say "believe" instead of "obey"? Can one disobey the gospel and his faith still save him? I don't believe so...

Jake

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Who are the 'us', and who are the 'them'?

Believing in, is 'trusting in'. Trusting in, is the obedience.

If you are trusting in Christ, you will cease trying to save yourself.

Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God:

Fresco
Jan 28th 2009, 10:34 PM
Greetings.

There are many good folk who would agree with your conclusion, however, I'm not one of them. Scripture, I believe, does not contradict itself, thus, when several scriptures seem to do so, it is always human thinking that is incorrect.

Paul wrote that the gospel of Christ was God's power to save those who believe, Rom 1:16. Many seem to think that belief without obedience is all that is required to be saved. This is very wrong.

Peter asks a very revealing and pertinent question; "...what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

Why didn't he say "believe" instead of "obey"? Can one disobey the gospel and his faith still save him? I don't believe so...

Jake
So in your opinion we have to perform works to be saved, correct??
In other words do as God says

Partaker of Christ
Jan 28th 2009, 10:45 PM
I agree..

One can say 'I believe'...

thou doest good if you believe in one God....well the Devils believe and they tremble... .

but when you 'believe' and 'trust' God with every aspect of your life from your marriage to your job to your children to taking your last breath... this is where the rubber hits and road... believe me my friends...

Active faith with total Trust on a Part of Born Again Christian...
its 'dynamite'.....

Hi theBelovedDisciple!

I find myself agreeing with you again :hug:

Faith is 'Trust'
If you truly trust in Him, you will surrender 'all' to Him. (that includes our free will) :)

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 10:48 PM
The one who truly trusts in God will have God's works working in him.

Faith without works is dead, being alone.

One can say I believe, but many who say they believe with their lips have their heart far from Him.

Profession is not necessarily Possession.

Possession produces fruit. A tree that does not produce fruit will wither and die and is good for nothing but to be chopped down and cast into the fire. A tree in God's garden always produces fruit.

As my wife pointed out earlier, 'a change of mind will result in a change of life.'

Fresco
Jan 28th 2009, 10:53 PM
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet (I aint reading 5 pages).

But Matthew 7:21 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/7.html#21) says:

"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven".

It says does will of God, not have faith in God

My heart's Desire
Jan 28th 2009, 11:02 PM
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet (I aint reading 5 pages).

But Matthew 7:21 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/7.html#21) says:

"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven".

It says does will of God, not have faith in God
But the will of the Father is to believe in the Son Whom He has sent.

Fresco
Jan 28th 2009, 11:04 PM
But the will of the Father is to believe in the Son Whom He has sent.
I think it encompasses a little more than just believing

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 11:08 PM
I think it encompasses a little more than just believing
It encompasses (evetually) trust. If you trust Him to always know what is best for you, you will follow His lead.

V

Fresco
Jan 28th 2009, 11:09 PM
I believe it works like this:

We are saved by grace and faith.
But when we die and come before judgement we will be judged and rewarded by our works. The more good works we performed, the more reward we get.
Those with little works will receive very little reward

Thats the way I see it :)

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 11:14 PM
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet (I aint reading 5 pages).

But Matthew 7:21 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/7.html#21) says:

"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven".

It says does will of God, not have faith in God

There are many references to the 'will of God.' One of those references states "In everything give thanks for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." Another states that to abstain from fornication is the will of God..

The fact is, true faith produces the work of God in the believer. One who bears not fruit is dead. His faith was in vain. Lip service did not equate to heart service.