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Joyfulparousia
Jan 24th 2009, 12:25 PM
In my (limited) understanding of the Amil view there seems to be no place for a mortal human to survive past the Second Coming of Christ. If this is true then there can be no future 1000 year reign of Christ with saints ruling with Him simply because there would be no one to rule over. It would be foolish to think that I would rule over my resurrected brother in Christ.

My question concerns a text from Mat. 8:11, 12

Mat 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Who are the "many" and who are the "sons of the kingdom"?

Eben
Jan 24th 2009, 01:31 PM
When Christ comes to rule for a thousand years it will be on earth from Jerusalem. He will rule with a rod of iron, it will not be all sunshine and happiness, the rod of iron means there will be punishment for those that transgress. So there will be living mortals on this earth ruled by Christ and His saints. Even after the thousand years of peace Satan will again deceive the living mortals and they will rebel against God.
Read Revelations 20 :
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the abyss and a heavy chain.
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent---that is, the Devil, or Satan---and chained him up for a thousand years.
Rev 20:3 The angel threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that he must be set loose for a little while.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the power to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been executed because they had proclaimed the truth that Jesus revealed and the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image, nor had they received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and ruled as kings with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first raising of the dead.
Rev 20:6 Happy and greatly blessed are those who are included in this first raising of the dead. The second death has no power over them; they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they will rule with him for a thousand years.


Then Mat.8 verse 11 speaks of the Kingdom in heaven and not on earth. They are the Israelites that did not accept Him and they will be cast out although they are counted with Abraham and Isaac now because of the relationship as Jews they will not enter the Kingdom in heaven.

Eben

Joyfulparousia
Jan 24th 2009, 01:37 PM
Then Mat.8 verse 11 speaks of the Kingdom in heaven and not on earth.

Where do you see Eph 1:10 fulfillment? Future? Past?


They are the Israelites that did not accept Him and they will be cast out although they are counted with Abraham and Isaac now because of the relationship as Jews they will not enter the Kingdom in heaven

I'm not clear on your answer. Who are the many and the sons of the kingdom?

Eben
Jan 24th 2009, 02:10 PM
The fulfillment of Eph.1:10 will be after the 1000 years of peace, after the loosening of Satan and his final destruction when everything will be subjected to Christ and when finally He hand over everything to God.

The many will be Israelites but there will be those that will be cast away due to their sins.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was surprised and said to the people following him, "I tell you, I have never found anyone in Israel with faith like this.
Mat 8:11 I assure you that many will come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But those who should be in the Kingdom will be thrown out into the darkness, where they will cry and gnash their teeth."
It could also be that the "many" He refers to could be the Gentiles that will accept Him. But I think that seeing the whole scene revolves around the faith of Israel He refers to the believing Israelites.
Eben

David Taylor
Jan 24th 2009, 02:24 PM
Ebon's thoughts above aren't the Amill view, they appear to be a premill explanation.
Here is a reply from an Amill perspective.


In my (limited) understanding of the Amil view there seems to be no place for a mortal human to survive past the Second Coming of Christ.

Yes, Amil sees Christ Return as the climax and conclusion to human "mortal" history.



If this is true then there can be no future 1000 year reign of Christ with saints ruling with Him simply because there would be no one to rule over.

Amill believes John's usage of "a thousand years" was to denote the long, undefined and unknowable duration if time between the first and second Advents, with Christ reigning over his ever growing N.T. church from Heaven. At his Return, that reign will be on the glorified New Earth forever more reigning with his resurrected faithful, immortal followers.




It would be foolish to think that I would rule over my resurrected brother in Christ.

You with your brother, however, will reign together with and in Christ having the victory over sin, death, and all of Christ's enemies.




My question concerns a text from Mat. 8:11, 12

Mat 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Who are the "many" and who are the "sons of the kingdom"?

Many are the resurrected uncountable faithful multitude joined with Christ at his Return.

In this context of talking with the faithful Gentile centurion, sons of the kingdom are representing the wicked and lost of Israel who didn't accept him by faith, showing that in the resurrection, this Gentile Centurion will sit among the glorified and ressurected redeemed alongside Abraham and Isaac but wicked Israelites like Herod or Caiphus won't be, rather they will be in Hell for their unbelief and rejection of Christ.

Eben
Jan 24th 2009, 02:53 PM
How do you understand the fact that Satan will be bound a 1000 years so that he could not deceive the nations anymore? Rev.20:3
Eben

Joyfulparousia
Jan 24th 2009, 02:55 PM
Many are the resurrected uncountable faithful multitude joined with Christ at his Return.

In this context of talking with the faithful Gentile centurion, sons of the kingdom are representing the wicked and lost of Israel who didn't accept him by faith, showing that in the resurrection, this Gentile Centurion will sit among the glorified and ressurected redeemed alongside Abraham and Isaac but wicked Israelites like Herod or Caiphus won't be, rather they will be in Hell for their unbelief and rejection of Christ.

So, do they come from the east and west before they are resurrected or after?

The amil might say that they come from east and west before the resurrection into the New Jerusalem on the renewed earth to sup with fathers of the faith, while a premil might say that these aren't resurrected saint coming from east and west; but rather mortal kings from the nations in the millennium.

Where do these verses fit into the amil scheme? The common theme here being kings coming to Jerusalem to behold the glory of Jesus.

Psa 72:8 He shall also have dominion from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 Those who dwell in the wilderness shall bow before Him; and His enemies shall lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents; the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him; all nations shall serve Him.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to bow down before Me(in Jerusalem), says Jehovah.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go out and observe the dead corpses of the men who have rebelled against Me. For their worm does not die, nor is their fire quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that everyone who is left from all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to bow down before the King, Jehovah of Hosts, and keep the Feast of Booths.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
Rev 21:25 And its gates shall not be shut at all by day, because there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

Psalms Fan
Jan 24th 2009, 04:44 PM
How do you understand the fact that Satan will be bound a 1000 years so that he could not deceive the nations anymore? Rev.20:3
Eben

For one, the book of Revelation is full of imagery that is symbolic of the reality that it represents. For instance, the four horsemen represent the events that they symbolize, but there aren't going to be four actual men on four actual colored horses.

In Rev 20 we have the imagery of the dragon being bound in chains and thrown into the bottomless pit. This brings up a few points:
-How could actual chains hold a spirit being?
-Is there an actual pit that has no bottom, or does it mean something else?

All in all, this scene, like all the other scenes in this apocalyptic book, is one of vivid imagery intended to convey something beyond the images and symbols.

Christ has something to say about binding Satan in the gospel of Matthew (it's also in Mark):

Matt 12:27-29 (ESV)
"And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house."

According to Jesus, Satan was "bound" 2000 years ago.

According to Jesus in Revelation, Satan is bound in order to not deceive the nations. That way the Gospel is able to be spread. Satan's kingdom can have no power of the ability for God's gospel to go throughout the world.

According to Jesus in the Gospel accounts, Satan is bound in order that God's kingdom could plunder His house. We can get back what Satan and his kingdom stole from us - peace, wholeness, joy, etc.

Satan's binding means the advancing of the kingdom of God. It doesn't mean that Satan is not alive and around (unless one will hyper-literalize EVERYTHING in the book of Revelation). It just means that the Gospel will go out and do it's thing, and that we will enjoy the benefits.

But, there will come a time when Satan's restriction on deceiving the nations is removed and the hearts and minds of people will be blinded from the gospel. But Christ will return not too long after that to judge the world.

ScottJohnson
Jan 24th 2009, 07:42 PM
In my (limited) understanding of the Amil view there seems to be no place for a mortal human to survive past the Second Coming of Christ. If this is true then there can be no future 1000 year reign of Christ with saints ruling with Him simply because there would be no one to rule over. It would be foolish to think that I would rule over my resurrected brother in Christ.

My question concerns a text from Mat. 8:11, 12

Mat 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Who are the "many" and who are the "sons of the kingdom"?

The "many" are those from every nation including Israel who have chose to follow Christ. The "sons of the kingdom", seem to be speaking of Jews who cling to the old covenant and reject Christ. I believe this is where Paul draws his talk on the the olive branches from Romans 11:17-24. It was the faith of the centurion that prompted Jesus to make that statement. It's kind of hard, in light of the trouble that He has with the Jewish leaders and their followers, to not see them as the target of that statement.

Benaiah
Jan 24th 2009, 07:51 PM
The "Sons of the kingdom" spoken of would be the ones from whom the kingdom was taken.


Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

David Taylor
Jan 25th 2009, 02:44 AM
Where do these verses fit into the amil scheme? The common theme here being kings coming to Jerusalem to behold the glory of Jesus.

Psa 72:8 He shall also have dominion from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 Those who dwell in the wilderness shall bow before Him; and His enemies shall lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents; the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him; all nations shall serve Him.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to bow down before Me(in Jerusalem), says Jehovah.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go out and observe the dead corpses of the men who have rebelled against Me. For their worm does not die, nor is their fire quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.


Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that everyone who is left from all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to bow down before the King, Jehovah of Hosts, and keep the Feast of Booths.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
Rev 21:25 And its gates shall not be shut at all by day, because there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

This last passage sets its own venue as the New Earth after the Resurrection and glorification of all humankind; and after the final judgment.

Therefore we know that all of these kings of the Earth are redeemed Christians who have come to be with Christ within the New Jerusalem in the New Earth.

Amill would say that the Isaiah 65-66 passage regarding the New Earth is the same venue; after the resurrection and the final judgment.

The Zech 14 passage, Amill would say, is not speaking of wicked kings going to earthly jerusalem, but faithful redeemed going to the New Jerusalem where Christ is King. (whether it is symbolic of the intra-advent church age, or the post-2nd Advent New Earth I would say Amills are probably divided.)

The Psalmic passage is twofold; one referring to the days of Solomon and his reign over the known world; and two a Messianic prophecy of Jesus being worshipped by the Kings, otherwise known as the wise men from afar. Nothing in the context of Psalms 72 mentions the 2nd Coming or the resurrection or the judgment or of people being glorified and immortalized.

Joyfulparousia
Jan 25th 2009, 11:31 AM
This last passage sets its own venue as the New Earth after the Resurrection and glorification of all humankind; and after the final judgment.

Therefore we know that all of these kings of the Earth are redeemed Christians who have come to be with Christ within the New Jerusalem in the New Earth.

King, in verse 24 is basileus - a sovereign, meaning a king with people under him. Who are these people? What people has a king coming in the New Jerusalem reigned over? What glory and honor would they bring into the New Jerusalem. Who is going in and out of the gates? Why are the gates mentioned if a kings "going in" to the city is a one time event.


Amill would say that the Isaiah 65-66 passage regarding the New Earth is the same venue; after the resurrection and the final judgment.

Why then in Is 65:20 does it say that child will die at 100 years old? Why is there still death if this is eternity after final judgment?

Why in Is 66:19 does it mention "those who escape" that are sent back to the nations if this is after the Second Coming of verse 15 & 16? Why are there people declaring glory among the Gentiles in verse 19 after the Second Advent? Who are those who look upon the corpses of men who transgressed against the Lord in verse 24?


The Zech 14 passage, Amill would say, is not speaking of wicked kings going to earthly jerusalem, but faithful redeemed going to the New Jerusalem where Christ is King. (whether it is symbolic of the intra-advent church age, or the post-2nd Advent New Earth I would say Amills are probably divided.)

Why then is there judgment on them if they don't go up to Jerusalem? God wouldn't judge His redeemed would He?


The Psalmic passage is twofold; one referring to the days of Solomon and his reign over the known world; and two a Messianic prophecy of Jesus being worshipped by the Kings, otherwise known as the wise men from afar. Nothing in the context of Psalms 72 mentions the 2nd Coming or the resurrection or the judgment or of people being glorified and immortalized.

Note that Solomon wrote that Psalm. Why would he talk about himself in the 3rd person?

Where else does it say that Solomon had dominion from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth? When did his enemies lick the dust? When did all kings fall down before Solomon? When did all nations serve him?

Why is prayer made for him (Jesus or Solomon) continually? When do all nations serve Jesus?

Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in Heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In this passage we see knees bowing, but then these unredeemed are destroyed. They do not go on serve Christ in eternity, like Ps. 72 says, do they?

ScottJohnson
Jan 25th 2009, 01:39 PM
Note that Solomon wrote that Psalm. Why would he talk about himself in the 3rd person?

You might want to go back and read the last verse of Psalm 72.

Psa 72:20
(20) The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Where else does it say that Solomon had dominion from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth? When did his enemies lick the dust? When did all kings fall down before Solomon? When did all nations serve him?
Bear in mind that this is a prayer and not an historical record. However the historical accounts from 1 Kings do offer some prophetic fulfillment.

1Ki 4:21-24
(21) And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.
(22) And Solomon's provision for one day was thirty measures of fine flour, and threescore measures of meal,
(23) Ten fat oxen, and twenty oxen out of the pastures, and an hundred sheep, beside harts, and roebucks, and fallowdeer, and fatted fowl.
(24) For he had dominion over all the region on this side the river, from Tiphsah even to Azzah, over all the kings on this side the river: and he had peace on all sides round about him.

1Ki 10:23-25
(23) So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.
(24) And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.
(25) And they brought every man his present, vessels of silver, and vessels of gold, and garments, and armour, and spices, horses, and mules, a rate year by year.

Joyfulparousia
Jan 25th 2009, 01:52 PM
You might want to go back and read the last verse of Psalm 72.

Psa 72:20
(20) The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Bear in mind that this is a prayer and not an historical record. However the historical accounts from 1 Kings do offer some prophetic fulfillment.

Thanks for the help. Missed verse 20. :)