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Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 05:55 PM
Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

Romans 9:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.

Diolectic
Jan 24th 2009, 06:26 PM
Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

Romans 9:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.Okay, lets work your theology out logically:

Would you bake a poop pie and be angry about how bad it tastes?
Would you program a computer to make mistakes and be angry that the computer is wrong?
If not, then why would God create men (the non-elect & damned, the objects of God's eternal wrath) for the sole purpose of condemning to hell?

They who are non-elect would be doing God's will by sinning, becuase that is the reason for condemnation.
Now, when the non-elect sinning are doing God's will, and all sin is contrary to Go'ds will, then the non-elects sins are not realy sin.
They will be condemned for doing God's will.

You make no sence at all in yopur theology!!!

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 06:34 PM
Okay, lets work your theology out logically:

Would you bake a poop pie and be angry about how bad it tastes?
Would you program a computer to make mistakes and be angry that the computer is wrong?
If not, then why would God create men (the non-elect & damned, the objects of God's eternal wrath) for the sole purpose of condemning to hell?

They who are non-elect would be doing God's will by sinning, becuase that is the reason for condemnation.
Now, when the non-elect sinning are doing God's will, and all sin is contrary to Go'ds will, then the non-elects sins are not realy sin.
They will be condemned for doing God's will.

You make no sence at all in yopur theology!!!
It really is that simple. :lol:

th1bill
Jan 24th 2009, 06:50 PM
Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

Romans 9:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.
... I'm very sorry that you have been attacked by a Hyper-Calvinist and he or she mess you up so badly. The very first rule in interpreting scripture is to never pull any verse out of it's context because that is how all heresy begins. Your new interpretation of Rom. 9:18 attempts to fly in the face of 2Pet. 3:9 and much other scripture. The second rule of interpreting scripture is that every verse must be seen in the light of every other scripture leaving this work you've been taught to be at fault.
... God bless and I hope this helps.

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 07:00 PM
Okay, lets work your theology out logically:

K.


Would you bake a poop pie and be angry about how bad it tastes?

Nope.


Would you program a computer to make mistakes and be angry that the computer is wrong?

Nope.


If not, then why would God create men (the non-elect & damned, the objects of God's eternal wrath) for the sole purpose of condemning to hell?

Because HE'S GOD!


They who are non-elect would be doing God's will by sinning, becuase that is the reason for condemnation.

True.


Now, when the non-elect sinning are doing God's will, and all sin is contrary to Go'ds will, then the non-elects sins are not realy sin.

Show me where sin is contrary to God's will. I say it is unscriptural.

God's will will be done. God knew Adam would sin and created him anyway.
They will be condemned for doing God's will.


You make no sence at all in yopur theology!!!

Paul writes about things that are hard to understand. However, nothing I state conflicts with the Scripture.

Notice the signature?

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watchinginawe
Jan 24th 2009, 08:13 PM
God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.I think that statement makes everything we witness regarding God (including His word) arbitrary. Basically, God is arbitrary. God is not a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him and God is not a punisher of the evil. That there is nothing to be heeded in His word and that all prayer is simply vain repetition.

I can not reconcile such thoughts about God with passages like:

Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

What is a jealous God? What does God promise to those that hate Him? What does God promise to those that love Him, and keep (observe, heed, live) His commandments? Are these the words of an arbitrary God?


Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Now verse 33 exhibits something else than an arbitrary God. Again in verse 35, there is a BECAUSE in the middle of the verse. Again, these are the actions of something other than an arbitrary God. God's mercy does not contradict His judgment.


Continuing, in reference to the verse you quoted (starting at Romans 9:15 "For he saith to Moses") when God passes before Moses and shows all His goodness and proclaims Himself...

Exodus 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

What manner of God does God proclaim Himself to be?


Are the following merely idle words of Moses?

Deuteronomy 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:

26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Is there nothing to heed in the above? Can God not be provoked to anger and wrath? In our sin and disobedience, is there nothing to seek? Is God arbitrary?


Psalm 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

Do we fear God for nought? Can God make a "promise"?


What does all of scripture conclude?

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


God Bless!

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 08:28 PM
... I'm very sorry that you have been attacked by a Hyper-Calvinist and he or she mess you up so badly. The very first rule in interpreting scripture is to never pull any verse out of it's context because that is how all heresy begins. Your new interpretation of Rom. 9:18 attempts to fly in the face of 2Pet. 3:9 and much other scripture. The second rule of interpreting scripture is that every verse must be seen in the light of every other scripture leaving this work you've been taught to be at fault.
... God bless and I hope this helps.


Your opinion.

My first rule is that all Scripture is profitable.
My second rule is that Scripture confirms Scripture.
My third rule is that if a single verse conflicts with another, then something is being read into it that shouldn't be.

Let's look at 2 Peter 3:9 and Romans 9:18.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

So, we have God having mercy on whomever he wants, but God willing that all should have mercy?

Who's Peter talking about when he says "not willing that any should perish"? Any man?

He says the us, the beloved. God is not willing that any of the beloved should perish. God wills that all who are beloved come to repentance. Who can resist God's will?

Thus, the Scriptures, which conflict only if you translate "any" as "all men" instead of "any of us", confirm each other.

ProjectPeter
Jan 24th 2009, 08:33 PM
Your opinion.

My first rule is that all Scripture is profitable.
My second rule is that Scripture confirms Scripture.
My third rule is that if a single verse conflicts with another, then something is being read into it that shouldn't be.

Let's look at 2 Peter 3:9 and Romans 9:18.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

So, we have God having mercy on whomever he wants, but God willing that all should have mercy?

Who's Peter talking about when he says "not willing that any should perish"? Any man?

He says the us, the beloved. God is not willing that any of the beloved should perish. God wills that all who are beloved come to repentance. Who can resist God's will?

Thus, the Scriptures, which conflict only if you translate "any" as "all men" instead of "any of us", confirm each other.
Why would Peter being talking about the elect if it is as you say that the elect are not going to perish anyway? According to your Calvinism doctrine... the elect cannot perish therefore there would be no need for God to be patient. They are elect therefore they are. Again... a very problematic part of that there doctrine. Both Calvin and Augustine were full of inconsistencies... it is still apparent in the followers of the doctrines they taught. :)

Firstfruits
Jan 24th 2009, 09:46 PM
Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

Romans 9:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.

What in the following scripture has changed, that you would change your belief?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who do we believe?

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 11:36 PM
Why would Peter being talking about the elect if it is as you say that the elect are not going to perish anyway? According to your Calvinism doctrine... the elect cannot perish therefore there would be no need for God to be patient. They are elect therefore they are. Again... a very problematic part of that there doctrine. Both Calvin and Augustine were full of inconsistencies... it is still apparent in the followers of the doctrines they taught. :)

He is patient with them, waiting until His chosen time to grant them repentance.


What in the following scripture has changed, that you would change your belief?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who do we believe?

Firstfruits

I believe the Word of God.

God is longsuffering to us, the elect, the chosen. He doesn't will that any of the elect perish. He wills that all the elect comes to repentance.

th1bill
Jan 24th 2009, 11:37 PM
Your opinion.

My first rule is that all Scripture is profitable.
My second rule is that Scripture confirms Scripture.
My third rule is that if a single verse conflicts with another, then something is being read into it that shouldn't be.
... You know, it is sad to see that you are doing the same thing all cultists do. You are attempting to build a theology on one verse and not only are you bending the clear meaning of another to conform it to your ideology, you have taken my words and twisted them into, what you wish us to believe, is a personal idea of my own. When you stated "Your opinion," you walked straight away from the truth into falsehood and began to attack and attempting to incite a fight. That is neither of God nor is it taught in the scriptures.
... The first two rules I gave to you are taught and were taught to me by my instructor in Hermeneutics. Your spin on what you have termed my rule three is just, being nice, not at all the truth. Every teacher I have ever run into that teaches heresy has been, to some extent, a spin doctor. Right this moment I'm hoping that you have just been caught up in the rush of the moment and do not seriously mean the falsehood you have stated here. The perfect will of God is contained in the verse I gave you and that will is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance and be saved.
... Praying that you will, in prayer, seek God's council on this matter.

Yukerboy
Jan 24th 2009, 11:44 PM
th1bill,

you misunderstood me and I can see how and I apologize.

When I said "your opinion", I meant the above quote.

I then followed that with MY own set of rules and not a twisted interpreation of your own.

I honestly did not mean for it to be taken like that and apologize once again.

Teke
Jan 25th 2009, 12:01 AM
This thread is a perfect example of western philosophy and logic. Someone brought up Augustine, well add Aquinas to that list.

All who follow in such systematic theological attempts are going to find themselves running in circles of syllogisms. But hey, as long as Rome can keep this sort of thing going, what the heck.

A philosophical system isn't going to help anyone, it's an offspring of rationalism. That being the human reason is the foundation of certainty, the measure of truth, and way of knowledge.

Philosophy is a dead end. Eastern Christianity already dealt with it in Rome (with Greek philosophy).

Philosophy is characterized by conceptualization. The human intellect cannot accept reality as it is. It transposes it first into symbols and then elaborates upon the symbols. But the symbols are counterfeit figures of reality. The concepts are as distant as a picture of a fish from a real fish.

Living reality doesn't fit into categories of the human intellect. It is a condition above reason. Philosophy is an attempt to transpose the suprarational into rational.

Teke
Jan 25th 2009, 12:52 AM
Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

Romans 9:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

God's will and God's desires are not seperate. My mistake.

Don't change your belief Yukerboy. We don't really "know" anything. :saint:

There is the trinitarian moral understanding which involves the subject of 'grace'.
Don't be fooled by Calvinisms methodology ( The branch of logic that deals with the general principles of the formation of knowledge).

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:12 AM
Don't change your belief Yukerboy. We don't really "know" anything. :saint:

There is the trinitarian moral understanding which involves the subject of 'grace'.
Don't be fooled by Calvinisms methodology ( The branch of logic that deals with the general principles of the formation of knowledge).

We don't know anything. I agree.

But then, Calvin, who I disagree with almost as much as Wesley, couldn't be known to be wrong, correct?

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:12 AM
Very awesome Yukerboy. I've been reading your past posts and marveled at how close you were to truth yet not quit finding it. Finally you have and praise God for opening your eyes. Don't get disheartened by the attacks you will certainly get by holding to truth. Remember that the world will hate you and attempt to spiritually kill you. Just keep the bible as your only source book of truth and all will be well.

Also remember that standing for truth is a very lonely occupation. As you have already noticed, the attacks are coming and will never stop. Now that you have come to truth about exactly how God chooses, you now must declare it. Spread the word so that people will know that they can come to God for mercy and that perhaps He will save them IF He desires.
Drama never ceases! Attacks? Alrighty then! :lol:

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:13 AM
Very awesome Yukerboy. I've been reading your past posts and marveled at how close you were to truth yet not quit finding it. Finally you have and praise God for opening your eyes. Don't get disheartened by the attacks you will certainly get by holding to truth. Remember that the world will hate you and attempt to spiritually kill you. Just keep the bible as your only source book of truth and all will be well.

Also remember that standing for truth is a very lonely occupation. As you have already noticed, the attacks are coming and will never stop. Now that you have come to truth about exactly how God chooses, you now must declare it. Spread the word so that people will know that they can come to God for mercy and that perhaps He will save them IF He desires.

Thanks, Mikey0....I think. :)

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:17 AM
Drama never ceases! Attacks? Alrighty then! :lol:

The Bible is a double edged sword. To attack and defend?

Luckily, I'm a docile, humble, defenseless little boy....

Teke
Jan 25th 2009, 01:22 AM
Very awesome Yukerboy. I've been reading your past posts and marveled at how close you were to truth yet not quit finding it.

Does this mean grace is a lost and found issue?


Finally you have and praise God for opening your eyes. Don't get disheartened by the attacks you will certainly get by holding to truth. Remember that the world will hate you and attempt to spiritually kill you. Just keep the bible as your only source book of truth and all will be well.

I would've thought grace opened his eyes, him being a Christian and all. While holy scripture is profitable, it is not the source of truth, God is.
And btw, the world can't spiritually kill a Christian. God didn't create it to kill people spiritually or otherwise. I certainly hope you weren't insinuating that Christians are worldly and can kill other Christians......


Also remember that standing for truth is a very lonely occupation. As you have already noticed, the attacks are coming and will never stop. Now that you have come to truth about exactly how God chooses, you now must declare it. Spread the word so that people will know that they can come to God for mercy and that perhaps He will save them IF He desires.

Standing for ones own truth (rationalization in methodology) would certainly be a lonely thing without the Trinity and the Church.

Teke
Jan 25th 2009, 01:42 AM
We don't know anything. I agree.

But then, Calvin, who I disagree with almost as much as Wesley, couldn't be known to be wrong, correct?

If their knowledge wasn't the vision of God, they could be wrong.

Knowledge is the vision of God and His creation in a heart purified by divine grace and the struggles and prayers of man.
"Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God"

Truth is not a series of definitions, but God Himself, Who appeared concretely in the person of Christ, Who said, "I am the Truth".

The experience of knowledge is something that cannot be expressed in human words. When Paul came to know, he said that he had heard unspeakable words-something which is impossible for man to express.

Even dogmas are helpful formulations. But they are not actual knowledge, they simply guide and protect from error. Using that criteria (dogma) you can protect and guide yourself from error.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:52 AM
If their knowledge wasn't the vision of God, they could be wrong.

Knowledge is the vision of God and His creation in a heart purified by divine grace and the struggles and prayers of man.
"Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God"

Truth is not a series of definitions, but God Himself, Who appeared concretely in the person of Christ, Who said, "I am the Truth".

The experience of knowledge is something that cannot be expressed in human words. When Paul came to know, he said that he had heard unspeakable words-something which is impossible for man to express.

Even dogmas are helpful formulations. But they are not actual knowledge, they simply guide and protect from error. Using that criteria (dogma) you can protect and guide yourself from error.

Trust me, it shocks me more to say this than for you to hear this.

I agree with everything you said above.

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 01:57 AM
No, grace is a have or not issue. Grace comes from God if He wants to give it to you.



What does him being a Christian have to do with God opening eyes to a truth? I don't know him from Adam so I don't know if he's saved or not. Who really knows that about someone anyway? Who has the right to judge? I don't. Just don't think that the title "Christian" means one has truth. Just check these forums out any given day and you will see 10 different ideas on whatever subject. Someone has to be wrong. Which means probably 9 of those 10 are lies.

BTW, the world can't kill a saved person. You are correct. You are getting stuck on that word "Chrisitan". Many claim to be Christians and are not. Yet they think they are. Please, I'm not saying someone is or isn't saved. I'm just saying that I don't label someone like that just because they claim to be one. Salvation isn't as common as "Christians" make it out out to be.



And the church? Hmm. Declaring truth is lonely. The bible says few will be saved and that in our day false Christs are everywhere. Turn on your TV on Sunday morning and that's probably all you will see, false doctrines. Look at the so called church. Again, mostly false gospels.

Speak against the popular doctrines of today and you will see the attacks come and just how lonely it can be. I think I would rather NOT follow what is the acceptable Christian doctrine. The world loves those doctrines and because they love those doctrines, one will fit in nicely if they follow them.

But hey, this isn't really the point of this thread is it?
You are the one that made it a point in the thread. ;)

Teke
Jan 25th 2009, 03:46 AM
No, grace is a have or not issue. Grace comes from God if He wants to give it to you.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Looks to me like grace is extended to all the same people that face death.




What does him being a Christian have to do with God opening eyes to a truth? I don't know him from Adam so I don't know if he's saved or not. Who really knows that about someone anyway? Who has the right to judge? I don't. Just don't think that the title "Christian" means one has truth. Just check these forums out any given day and you will see 10 different ideas on whatever subject. Someone has to be wrong. Which means probably 9 of those 10 are lies.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:


BTW, the world can't kill a saved person. You are correct. You are getting stuck on that word "Chrisitan". Many claim to be Christians and are not. Yet they think they are. Please, I'm not saying someone is or isn't saved. I'm just saying that I don't label someone like that just because they claim to be one. Salvation isn't as common as "Christians" make it out out to be.


I think you mean many Christians make claims. And salvation is pretty common among Christians.


And the church? Hmm. Declaring truth is lonely. The bible says few will be saved and that in our day false Christs are everywhere. Turn on your TV on Sunday morning and that's probably all you will see, false doctrines. Look at the so called church. Again, mostly false gospels.

Speak against the popular doctrines of today and you will see the attacks come and just how lonely it can be. I think I would rather NOT follow what is the acceptable Christian doctrine. The world loves those doctrines and because they love those doctrines, one will fit in nicely if they follow them.

But hey, this isn't really the point of this thread is it?

I think most of what you speak of isn't trinitarian theology. That just shows a lack of understanding, not that they are not Christians.

Butch5
Jan 25th 2009, 04:15 AM
This thread is a perfect example of western philosophy and logic. Someone brought up Augustine, well add Aquinas to that list.

All who follow in such systematic theological attempts are going to find themselves running in circles of syllogisms. But hey, as long as Rome can keep this sort of thing going, what the heck.

A philosophical system isn't going to help anyone, it's an offspring of rationalism. That being the human reason is the foundation of certainty, the measure of truth, and way of knowledge.

Philosophy is a dead end. Eastern Christianity already dealt with it in Rome (with Greek philosophy).

Philosophy is characterized by conceptualization. The human intellect cannot accept reality as it is. It transposes it first into symbols and then elaborates upon the symbols. But the symbols are counterfeit figures of reality. The concepts are as distant as a picture of a fish from a real fish.

Living reality doesn't fit into categories of the human intellect. It is a condition above reason. Philosophy is an attempt to transpose the suprarational into rational.

Well said! Western Christianity is in a big mess.

rom826
Jan 25th 2009, 07:24 AM
Romans 9:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

[/quote=Yukerboy]


Rom 11:32 says
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


[quote]
If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.



What you are saying here totally contradicts Rom 11:32.

Firstfruits
Jan 25th 2009, 11:31 AM
He is patient with them, waiting until His chosen time to grant them repentance.



I believe the Word of God.

God is longsuffering to us, the elect, the chosen. He doesn't will that any of the elect perish. He wills that all the elect comes to repentance.

Do you therefore believe that none will perish, and that all will be saved, as that is Gods will/desire?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Firstfruits

OldChurchGuy
Jan 25th 2009, 12:48 PM
Thanks to Brandplucked, I have changed what I once believed.

I believed that God desired that every man come to repentance so that He may have mercy on them all. Since we know not all come to repentance and that repentance is given by God, then it stands to reason that God's will and God's desires are two seperate things.

Yet, completely contradicting the above statement...

Romans 9:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.

Therefore, God, is willing that all of the elect come to repentance. God desires all the elect to come to repentance. God does not desire that every man come to repentance.

God's will and God's desires are not separate. My mistake.

Having read the posts to date I think Teke is (once again) right in the idea of trying to apply rational cause / effect Western philosophy to a matter of faith and belief leads only to frustration.

Just to be sure I understand things am I correct that famous Bible verse seen numerous times on television as American football teams kick a field goal (John 3:16) applies only to the elect?

Always learning,

OldChurchGuy

braininjured
Jan 25th 2009, 02:10 PM
pity I've avoided these forums for the secular rival... some reads of interest here. :)

Gregg
Jan 25th 2009, 02:20 PM
Your opinion.

My first rule is that all Scripture is profitable.
My second rule is that Scripture confirms Scripture.
My third rule is that if a single verse conflicts with another, then something is being read into it that shouldn't be.

Let's look at 2 Peter 3:9 and Romans 9:18.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

So, we have God having mercy on whomever he wants, but God willing that all should have mercy?

Who's Peter talking about when he says "not willing that any should perish"? Any man?

He says the us, the beloved. God is not willing that any of the beloved should perish. God wills that all who are beloved come to repentance. Who can resist God's will?

Thus, the Scriptures, which conflict only if you translate "any" as "all men" instead of "any of us", confirm each other.

He will have mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. Who he wants to have mercy on is whom accepts his sacrifice.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 03:25 PM
[quote=Yukerboy;1957184]

Romans 9:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

[/quote=Yukerboy]


Rom 11:32 says
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.




What you are saying here totally contradicts Rom 11:32.

Who are "them all"? The earlier text tells us "these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."

Now, the question becomes who are "these"?

all Israel shall be saved

It is God who chooses.


Do you therefore believe that none will perish, and that all will be saved, as that is Gods will/desire?

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Firstfruits

I believe that none of those God "is longsuffering to us-ward" will perish. I believe all those will come to repentance. God's will will be done.


He will have mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. Who he wants to have mercy on is whom accepts his sacrifice.

Amen!

ProDeo
Jan 25th 2009, 06:47 PM
Let's look at 2 Peter 3:9 and Romans 9:18.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
The Bible also says, "God is Love". So now we have not 2 but 3 quotes instead. And all 3 are true. So, does your theory still fits with these 3 (instead of 2) ingredients? How does 1 Cor 13 fits into your theory?

4th ingredient: God is not partiality.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

5th, 6th, 7th.............20th ingredient of Gods nature...

And all should fit. Any doctrine should meet every Biblical ingredient, not just 2.

My best,

Ed

Friend of I AM
Jan 25th 2009, 06:51 PM
He will have mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. Who he wants to have mercy on is whom accepts his sacrifice.

God's mercy extends to us even as we speak. Having mercy is not demonstrative of one accepting something or having done something to receive it, it's demonstrated when individuals don't deserve it.(i.e. God chose to put his son in the place of us as a recompense for sin, even though we deserved his righteous punishment)

Gulah Papyrus
Jan 25th 2009, 07:12 PM
I don't like this thread...I see believers fighting amongst each other with the same tone I hear between Christians and Atheists. This is rediculous. I mean this MiketO guy makes assertions that YB should hold on tight to the 'truth' because all these other believers just think they have the truth and will be attacking you...I mean, What?:confused Is this guy saying that the Christians that don't subscribe to Calvin are THE ENEMY??

What a joke. I really, really wish I hadn't read this thread.:(

ProjectPeter
Jan 25th 2009, 08:31 PM
I don't like this thread...I see believers fighting amongst each other with the same tone I hear between Christians and Atheists. This is rediculous. I mean this MiketO guy makes assertions that YB should hold on tight to the 'truth' because all these other believers just think they have the truth and will be attacking you...I mean, What?:confused Is this guy saying that the Christians that don't subscribe to Calvin are THE ENEMY??

What a joke. I really, really wish I hadn't read this thread.:(
Unfortunately there are some that believe that. Don't sweat the small stuff and that is small stuff. ;)

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 11:42 PM
The Bible also says, "God is Love". So now we have not 2 but 3 quotes instead. And all 3 are true. So, does your theory still fits with these 3 (instead of 2) ingredients? How does 1 Cor 13 fits into your theory?

4th ingredient: God is not partiality.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

5th, 6th, 7th.............20th ingredient of Gods nature...

And all should fit. Any doctrine should meet every Biblical ingredient, not just 2.

My best,

Ed

Agreed. God is not partial. He loves all of his sheep the same.

Teke
Jan 26th 2009, 02:48 AM
Rom 11:32 says
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.



This is just the sort of verse (along witht the verses before it 30,31) that becomes a paradox to some. Hence Paul's doxology to God's ways which follows it (v33-36).
The holy apostle Paul certainly has "knowledge". :saint:

ProDeo
Jan 26th 2009, 09:23 AM
Agreed. God is not partial. He loves all of his sheep the same.
Alright! But you also wrote:


Romans 9:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy. If one does not have mercy from God, it is because God did not want to have mercy on that one.
Next step, how does your theory rhyme with Rom 9:18 and secondly with your conclusion? Your conclusion just doesn't meet the "God is not partial" principle, neither does it meet the "God is Love" principle.

Rom 9:18 is a hard one for me also but when I read it in context it's about God's principles and goals with Israel and as such should be interpreted and understood in His great plan to save His creation, undo the damage satan has done, defeat satan, end the rebellion and restore order in the heavens.

Ed

Gregg
Jan 26th 2009, 01:50 PM
God's mercy extends to us even as we speak. Having mercy is not demonstrative of one accepting something or having done something to receive it, it's demonstrated when individuals don't deserve it.(i.e. God chose to put his son in the place of us as a recompense for sin, even though we deserved his righteous punishment)

Jesus offers water, we have to accept it or go thirsty. Receiving it is not a "works" to gain salvation. In your example all would enter the kingdom of Heaven, because you are correct he did die for all. Yet the Bible sure warns us what happens if we do not accept the gift. I am pretty sure everyone knows the difference between working for something, and getting a gift for free. I don't know you but if I sent you $1000, there is no way you could look at that money and say you earned it by accepting it. Now if I was a hitch hiker and you gave me a ride, you might think you earned it. In this case it would be like you picked me up and robbed me, beat me and left me to die, and then I sent you $1000. No, you could not say you earned it by accepting it. It would be a gift. Jesus gift is much greater than any of us can imagine. I am thankful.

Teke
Jan 26th 2009, 03:35 PM
Jesus offers water, we have to accept it or go thirsty. Receiving it is not a "works" to gain salvation. In your example all would enter the kingdom of Heaven, because you are correct he did die for all. Yet the Bible sure warns us what happens if we do not accept the gift. I am pretty sure everyone knows the difference between working for something, and getting a gift for free. I don't know you but if I sent you $1000, there is no way you could look at that money and say you earned it by accepting it. Now if I was a hitch hiker and you gave me a ride, you might think you earned it. In this case it would be like you picked me up and robbed me, beat me and left me to die, and then I sent you $1000. No, you could not say you earned it by accepting it. It would be a gift. Jesus gift is much greater than any of us can imagine. I am thankful.

Here is another example of western rationalism. This pertaining to justification. Another circular/secular debate.

The Catholics teach that man is saved by the number and quality of good works he does, even to the point of teaching that the overflow could go to sinners if they could pay the appropriate price.

The Protestant takes the other side. Teaching works merit nothing, and that it is faith alone that saves man.

Rationalism leads man into darkness. The Apostles and church fathers were not rationalist (the rationalist would find them contradictory even). Which is why this arguement has continued for centuries. And they convince no one, but continue as anthropocentric concepts.

Friend of I AM
Jan 26th 2009, 05:12 PM
Jesus offers water, we have to accept it or go thirsty. Receiving it is not a "works" to gain salvation. In your example all would enter the kingdom of Heaven, because you are correct he did die for all. Yet the Bible sure warns us what happens if we do not accept the gift. I am pretty sure everyone knows the difference between working for something, and getting a gift for free. I don't know you but if I sent you $1000, there is no way you could look at that money and say you earned it by accepting it. Now if I was a hitch hiker and you gave me a ride, you might think you earned it. In this case it would be like you picked me up and robbed me, beat me and left me to die, and then I sent you $1000. No, you could not say you earned it by accepting it. It would be a gift. Jesus gift is much greater than any of us can imagine. I am thankful.

Romans 9:14-16
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on Godís part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Was Peter able to extend his hand to receive God's mercy? No. Neither was Paul, nor are any of us. I think we need to look at things from the perspective that God is the one who can either get us in or out of whatever situation in when discussing anything pertaining to salvation. God bless you much.