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Pilgrimtozion
Jan 24th 2009, 08:32 PM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:

Kahtar
Jan 24th 2009, 08:53 PM
Just curious. How is Christ able to gather His elect that are in heaven if they have not previously risen there?

markedward
Jan 24th 2009, 08:56 PM
You're sure to get responses with a plethora of verses about why the "rapture" comes before the tribulation.

Reasons why I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture:


As shown above, Christ very explicitly placed His Coming as happening after the tribulation and persecution of His disciples.
Not a single time does Christ ever speak of a "secret coming" for His followers before the tribulation was to happen.
In His parable of the farmer (Matthew 13), Christ outright depicts the righteous and wicked as living together during "the end of the age", not the righteous being removed beforehand.
And then when "the end" actually came around, who is it we see taken away first? The wicked. That kind of throws the whole thing for a loop, huh?
Christ prayed that His disciples would not be taken out of the world.
Paul prophesied that the "rapture" would happen at the last trumpet. When we read the Revelation, the last trumpet sounds off to mark when Christ's rule over the earth was established and that the judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) had come.
The various verses from the epistles that speak of a "rapture" are indistinguishable from the verses that speak of the resurrection, which was to take place at the time of the Coming.

Bandit
Jan 24th 2009, 10:55 PM
As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:


Hello,

You have basically stated a core plank of what has come to be called the Prewrath position. (I underlined that part.) Perhaps you and your wife might want to examine the Prewrath position for yourselves. There are some Prewrath websites that might be useful. I too believe this way. For me it brings far more scripture together than pretrib ever did.

Bandit

aTrueHybrid
Jan 24th 2009, 11:26 PM
Well let's use logic.

Christ keep saying no one will know when His second coming will take place, that it will be at a time where we least suspect it.

BUT, we can expect the glorious appearing, just calculate 7 years after the signing of the treaty of Israel. But His second coming is suppose to come at a time where we LEAST expect it, hence a rapture.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

He did not just say He would keep us from the trials, but the HOUR of trials as well, meaning away from the 7-years tribulation, hence a PRE-Tribulation rapture.

shepherdsword
Jan 24th 2009, 11:34 PM
Just curious. How is Christ able to gather His elect that are in heaven if they have not previously risen there?

It seems to me he gathers them from the earth as well;)


And THEN shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Kahtar
Jan 24th 2009, 11:51 PM
It seems to me he gathers them from the earth as well;)Yes, He does. All on the earth, ie the trib saints, AND all those already in heaven, shall be gathered together at His coming.

vinsight4u8
Jan 25th 2009, 12:15 AM
So we find the rapture is to happen during the 6th seal.

sun black
moon blood
heaven departs
wicked hide in the rocks


-----------
See Isaiah 2:10-21
The wicked will hide from His glory and for fear of Him.

shepherdsword
Jan 25th 2009, 12:21 AM
Yes, He does. All on the earth, ie the trib saints, AND all those already in heaven, shall be gathered together at His coming.


The ones who are in heaven are the ones who are "absent from the body but present with the Lord" Notice it says AFTER the tribulation of those days. You won't find a reference there for another coming besides that.

Kahtar
Jan 25th 2009, 12:30 AM
The ones who are in heaven are the ones who are "absent from the body but present with the Lord" Notice it says AFTER the tribulation of those days. You won't find a reference there for another coming besides that.Okay.................;)

ScottJohnson
Jan 25th 2009, 12:36 AM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:
What days are those days and what tribulation is that tribulation?

shepherdsword
Jan 25th 2009, 12:44 AM
Okay.................;)


HaHa....hey, my position is hope for the best and prepare for the worse

quiet dove
Jan 25th 2009, 01:56 AM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:

Yep, after the tribulation Christ returns, however, here it says His angels gather the elect, so is that the same as blowing a trumpet and the dead in Christ and the living in Christ meeting Him in the clouds, and then, do they meet Him in the clouds as He is coming back in the "darkened" sky? Or do they watch Him come back then meet Him in the clouds? And that would be after the angels gathered them, but except I would think it difficult to gather them, after they saw Him coming and then them meet Him in the air to come back with Him.

All the saints, as in only one group, can respond to the the sound of the trumpet and meet Him in the clouds and watch Him come, be gathered by angels and come back with Him all in the same event.

These verses really do nothing to thwart pre trib.

What they do is make it clear that all will see Christ upon His Second Advent and that the angels will gather saints. And it makes clear that there are saints who survive the GT.

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2009, 02:06 AM
Yep, after the tribulation Christ returns, however, here it says His angels gather the elect, so is that the same as blowing a trumpet and the dead in Christ and the living in Christ meeting Him in the clouds, and then, do they meet Him in the clouds as He is coming back in the "darkened" sky? Or do they watch Him come back then meet Him in the clouds? And that would be after the angels gathered them, but except I would think it difficult to gather them, after they saw Him coming and then them meet Him in the air to come back with Him.

All the saints, as in only one group, can respond to the the sound of the trumpet and meet Him in the clouds and watch Him come, be gathered by angels and come back with Him all in the same event.

These verses really do nothing to thwart pre trib.

What they do is make it clear that all will see Christ upon His Second Advent and that the angels will gather saints. And it makes clear that there are saints who survive the GT.


The trump is mentioned in Matthew 24 when it repeats the same passage. ;)

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
NASB

We see these same exact signs mentioned again in Rev 6 and a great multitude suddenly in heaven in Rev 7. I figure that was the saints that were raptured. In Rev. 6 we see Christ returning again.

It also fits with the kingdom parables in Matthew 13.

There is a common theme from Matthew to Mark to Luke to Revelation where a rapture occurs after the tribulation.

quiet dove
Jan 25th 2009, 02:09 AM
The trump is mentioned in Matthew 24 when it repeats the same passage. ;) IMO, it completely trumps the pre-trib belief system unless there is to be another rapture including this one.

Matt 24:29-31

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
NASB

We see these same exact signs mentioned again in Rev 6 and a great multitude suddenly in heaven in Rev 7. I figure that was the saints that were raptured.

With a great trumpet the angels are sent forth is not the same as at the sound of a trumpet the living and dead meet Him in the sky. It also does not explain how the saints return with Him and watch Him come at the same time.

I'm not sure how angels being sent to seal God's servants is the same as the angels gathering the saints. We are told that further wrath will not happen until these are sealed and protected, protected from what if Christ has returned?

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2009, 02:14 AM
With a great trumpet the angels are sent forth is not the same as at the sound of a trumpet the living and dead meet Him in the sky. It also does not explain how the saints return with Him and watch Him come at the same time.

The theme is common in Matthew 24, to Mark 13 to Luke and all the way into Revelation 6 and 7. All of those passages show a gathering of the saints occurs after the tribulation. The signs are the same exact signs mentioned in each passage. They are the same. Thessalonians also mentions that the rapture cannot occur until the man of sin is revealed.

One has to fight hard to say this is not a gathering of the saints (i.e. a rapture) that occurs after the tribulation. Perhaps there's another rapture. But the scripture pretty much says there is a gathering (i.e.) rapture of the saints after the tribulation in all those passages does it not?

The seal is for protection from the wrath of the Lamb.

I see the first part as the wrath of satan and man. But after Rev 6 and 7, the wrath of God is poured out and his saints do not experience His wrath.

quiet dove
Jan 25th 2009, 02:26 AM
The theme is common in Matthew 24, to Mark 13 to Luke and all the way into Revelation 6 and 7. All of those passages show a gathering of the saints occurs after the tribulation. The signs are the same exact signs mentioned in each passage. They are the same. Thessalonians also mentions that the rapture cannot occur until the man of sin is revealed.

I disagree though, Thess says that the man of sin is revealed before Christ returns, it says nothing about Him having to be revealed before the rapture, says He will not be revealed until after what restrains is removed. Which is another bucket of worms:D



One has to fight hard to say this is not a gathering of the saints (i.e. a rapture) that occurs after the tribulation. Perhaps there's another rapture. But the scripture pretty much says there is a gathering (i.e.) rapture of the saints after the tribulation in all those passages does it not?

One has to work even harder to say the saints can watch Christ return and come with Him at the same time.



The seal is for protection from the wrath of the Lamb.
Agreed



I see the first part as the wrath of satan and man. But after Rev 6 and 7, the wrath of God is poured out and his saints do not experience His wrath.

Since Christ is the One opening all the seals, why are only 6 and 7 His wrath? I mean agree that Satan is dishing out his own wrath, but that does not equate to the first 5 seals not also being the wrath of the Lamb.

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2009, 02:37 AM
I disagree though, Thess says that the man of sin is revealed before Christ returns, it says nothing about Him having to be revealed before the rapture, says He will not be revealed until after what restrains is removed. Which is another bucket of worms:D

Yes it would be another can of worms. BTW, I think it might be Michael because of what Daniel says about Michael. Thessalonians addresses both.

2 Thess 2:1-4

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
NASB

The terrible day of the Lord is the tribulation period and the wrath, etc.


One has to work even harder to say the saints can watch Christ return and come with Him at the same time.One doesn't have to ignore plain scripture though. This scripture does say a gather of the saints from earth occurs after the tribulation. We can't get around that. I have heard many people say that there are those that are raptured up and then return immediately. Not sure I buy that either. But the problem with pretrib remains that these scriptures say a rapture occurs after the tribulation. I am open to the idea of more than one rapture. But don't you think it best to say that a rapture occurs in these verses?


Since Christ is the One opening all the seals, why are only 6 and 7 His wrath? I mean agree that Satan is dishing out his own wrath, but that does not equate to the first 5 seals not also being the wrath of the Lamb.Because Rev. 6 specifically calls the opening of that seal the wrath of the Lamb. Before that, we see martyrs after that we see judgment. The list of things mentioned in Matthew 24 line up nicely with the seals mentioned in Revelations. But the early seals pale in comparison to the wrath of the Lamb. That part is so bad that all of heaven is silent for 1/2 an hour.

Just because God opens the seals, does not mean that it is his wrath. Job went through tremendous suffering when God opened that door. But it wasn't God's wrath that Job suffered. There are martyrs mentioned in Matthew's trib, and in Revelations. Are you saying those martyrs experienced God's wrath?

quiet dove
Jan 25th 2009, 03:05 AM
Yes it would be another can of worms. BTW, I think it might be Michael because of what Daniel says about Michael. Thessalonians addresses both.

2 Thess 2:1-4

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
NASB

I disagree that the restrainer is Michael for two reasons, one is that Michael is said to be the prince that watches over Daniels people. That would not prevent him from being the restrainer however Thess is not talking about Daniels people in the sense that Israel is Daniels people within the context of the book of Daniel.

Also, as mighty and strong as Michael, I figure, is, he still does not have the authority to "restrain" in this context. The restrainment of not only evil but more importantly deception. Or more dangerously would be true also really.



The terrible day of the Lord is the tribulation period and the wrath, etc.

One doesn't have to ignore plain scripture though. This scripture does say a gather of the saints from earth occurs after the tribulation. We can't get around that. I have heard many people say that there are those that are raptured up and then return immediately. Not sure I buy that either. But the problem with pretrib remains that these scriptures say a rapture occurs after the tribulation. I am open to the idea of more than one rapture. But don't you think it best to say that a rapture occurs in these verses?I agree, there are saints gathered after the tribulation, but if scripture actually said "when" the rapture was, the ETC forum would not be near as much fun.:hug: Let me clarify what I believe, not to change the subject, just to clarify. I do not believe there will be two raptures. I believe there will be the rapture of the Church prior to the GT/wrath of God upon those who have thus far refused Life. Then when Christ returns, those who survive, are gathered as per Matt and Mark's gospels will live into the Millennium, then the Millennial, then after the Millennium and at the GWTJ all who are in Christ will be changed, plus those who were dead resurrected to life. But I don't see that as another rapture because rapture is to "catch away" and those who are physically alive and in Christ at the end of the Millennium will be changed, but not necessarily "caught away". We will all eventually be changed or resurrected to eternal life of course. Those in Christ anyway.



Because Rev. 6 specifically calls the opening of that seal the wrath of the Lamb. Before that, we see martyrs after that we see judgment. The list of things mentioned in Matthew 24 line up nicely with the seals mentioned in Revelations. But the early seals pale in comparison to the wrath of the Lamb. That part is so bad that all of heaven is silent for 1/2 an hour.

Just because God opens the seals, does not mean that it is his wrath. Job went through tremendous suffering when God opened that door. But it wasn't God's wrath that Job suffered. There are martyrs mentioned in Matthew's trib, and in Revelations. Are you saying those martyrs experienced God's wrath?I think if the first seal was not opened until after the martyrs were killed, then I could go with what you are saying. But I just believe that with Christ opening those seals, they are all His wrath, thus the beginning of His wrath with the first one, even if the first one is not war or famine, or something that appears bad. Deception is far worse than all the famine and war because it kills the soul. I do agree that Satan is dishing out wrath of his own upon the saints and killing them, in other words, two things happening. Satan is persecuting saints and the Lamb is bringing judgment upon the unjust.

The saints are physically dying but spiritually living, and the unjust are physically living but spiritually dieing.

Amos_with_goats
Jan 25th 2009, 03:35 AM
Good thread.

Just three more questions to consider;

1). What is the purpose / commission for the Church?

2). Given the purpose / commission of the Church would it make ANY sense to remove it from the world before the tribulation?

3). Is Christ not sufficient for the Tribulation?

And a bonus question;

When we see the words 'counted worthy of' in scripture what is it referencing? (Hint, it is not going out for ice cream). ;)

quiet dove
Jan 25th 2009, 04:06 AM
Good thread.

Just three more questions to consider;

1). What is the purpose / commission for the Church?

Preaching the gospel, now, we all know that, however, all the more reason to preach now. And the purpose of the Church is not to be punished with the unjust. We also know that deception will take hold because they have refused the truth,. The rapture does not contradict the purpose of the Church. The rapture is more proof of God's love and mercy and not pouring wrath upon the Bride of Christ



2). Given the purpose / commission of the Church would it make ANY sense to remove it from the world before the tribulation?All the pesky "Jesus freaks" being removed would make a pretty powerful witness. As I said, God himself will be sending delusion so if the rapture contradicts the Churches purpose seems like God Himself sending delusion would kinda defeat the Churches purpose also.



3). Is Christ not sufficient for the Tribulation?I guess that depends of if Christ is sufficient for today, is He? Why is the question always will He be sufficient for the GT, the question needs to be is if He is sufficient for today. There are a lot of people who have lived and died without having been in the GT or suffered any tribulation, just like there are many who have suffered and died. Believing there will be a rapture before the tribulation does not equate to thinking Christ is not sufficient. Either the rapture is Biblical or it is not, but whether or not Christ is sufficient is a question one needs to answer every day, not just for tribulation times.

And a bonus question;



When we see the words 'counted worthy of' in scripture what is it referencing? (Hint, it is not going out for ice cream). ;)So all those who put there faith in Christ through out history but suffered no tribulation, much less "the Tribulation" ended up in Hell because they were not worthy?

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2009, 11:15 AM
I disagree that the restrainer is Michael for two reasons, one is that Michael is said to be the prince that watches over Daniels people. That would not prevent him from being the restrainer however Thess is not talking about Daniels people in the sense that Israel is Daniels people within the context of the book of Daniel.

Also, as mighty and strong as Michael, I figure, is, he still does not have the authority to "restrain" in this context. The restrainment of not only evil but more importantly deception. Or more dangerously would be true also really.

Interesting about deception. But deception is rampant today. God himself will send great delusion when the truth is ignored.


I agree, there are saints gathered after the tribulation, but if scripture actually said "when" the rapture was, the ETC forum would not be near as much fun.:hug: Let me clarify what I believe, not to change the subject, just to clarify. I do not believe there will be two raptures. I believe there will be the rapture of the Church prior to the GT/wrath of God upon those who have thus far refused Life. Then when Christ returns, those who survive, are gathered as per Matt and Mark's gospels will live into the Millennium, then the Millennial, then after the Millennium and at the GWTJ all who are in Christ will be changed, plus those who were dead resurrected to life. But I don't see that as another rapture because rapture is to "catch away" and those who are physically alive and in Christ at the end of the Millennium will be changed, but not necessarily "caught away". We will all eventually be changed or resurrected to eternal life of course. Those in Christ anyway.

Thanks for the clarification.

Joyfulparousia
Jan 25th 2009, 01:57 PM
Just curious. How is Christ able to gather His elect that are in heaven if they have not previously risen there?

Because you have saints that have already died that are in heaven (supernatural realm) meeting the saints that are being caught up and gathered from earth to heaven (atmosphere).

Joyfulparousia
Jan 25th 2009, 01:59 PM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:

Great thoughts! Keep going in your study. Matt 24, Lk 21, Mk 13 are all parallel passages. Each one gives a few key details that the others do not give, therefore it's important to digest them all together and not just only 1 or 2.

Joyfulparousia
Jan 25th 2009, 02:10 PM
So all those who put there faith in Christ through out history but suffered no tribulation, much less "the Tribulation" ended up in Hell because they were not worthy?


I think those who are worthy are those mentioned in Rev. 20; 5:10, 2:26, 27 - the saints ruling with Christ in the millennium. It doesn't have to with salvation but rather eternal reward.

Remember that Jesus taught against immanence in Lk 19:11 - we are to endure and then reign with Christ (2 Timothy 2:12).

David Taylor
Jan 25th 2009, 02:17 PM
Matt 24i31 with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:27 gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Just curious. How is Christ able to gather His elect that are in heaven if they have not previously risen there?
Those in heaven represent those who've died and gone to be with the Lord prior to His Return from Heaven described here. (absent from the body is present with the Lord)

Paul parallel's Mark saying the same thing here:
I Thess 4:14 them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord

Christ gathers both believers in Heaven (prior death), and believers who are alive on Earth at the time of His Return.

All believers, Jesus precious elect, both in Heaven and Earth, are gathered to Him at His Return.

II Thess I 1:7 when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

quiet dove
Jan 25th 2009, 07:47 PM
I think those who are worthy are those mentioned in Rev. 20; 5:10, 2:26, 27 - the saints ruling with Christ in the millennium. It doesn't have to with salvation but rather eternal reward.

Remember that Jesus taught against immanence in Lk 19:11 - we are to endure and then reign with Christ (2 Timothy 2:12).

Again I ask, if a man and/or woman are in Christ Jesus, they trusted Christ until the day they left this mortal existence, they awaited His command and followed His direction with every breath they took, but they never suffered any tribulation or GT, are they less faithful then, did they not endure to the end?

Joyfulparousia
Jan 25th 2009, 08:14 PM
Again I ask, if a man and/or woman are in Christ Jesus, they trusted Christ until the day they left this mortal existence, they awaited His command and followed His direction with every breath they took, but they never suffered any tribulation or GT, are they less faithful then, did they not endure to the end?

If you're asking if I believe that one must go through the GT in order to reign with Christ, then "No".

Clearly the matt 25 and lk 19 parables say that millennial ruling it is based on faithfulness not on whether or not one is living in the last generation before the Lord's return.

The emphasis that you placed on your last post was on the eternal existance of the unfaithful. Regaurdless of the generation they live in they're still saved - yet their reward is less.

quiet dove
Jan 25th 2009, 08:28 PM
If you're asking if I believe that one must go through the GT in order to reign with Christ, then "No".

Clearly the matt 25 and lk 19 parables say that millennial ruling it is based on faithfulness not on whether or not one is living in the last generation before the Lord's return.

The emphasis that you placed on your last post was on the eternal existance of the unfaithful. Regaurdless of the generation they live in they're still saved - yet their reward is less.

Are you saying it is less, or are you thinking I said it was less, I'm confused?

Obviously, a person cannot be "less" saved, that much we agree on, but as to whether or not a reward being less because one does not suffer tribulation I would disagree. Faithful is faithful, dieing to self and living for Christ is dieing to self and living for Christ, whether one is asked to suffer tribulation or not. Doing as ask is the issue, not tribulation or not, unless of course ask to suffer tribulation.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 25th 2009, 11:23 PM
In His parable of the farmer (Matthew 13), Christ outright depicts the righteous and wicked as living together during "the end of the age", not the righteous being removed beforehand.
The ones taken away are the tares. Those who are false Christian that are sown among the wheat.

My understanding is that these are they, who will fall away at the time of the tribulation. They will be seduced by decieving spirits.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Joyfulparousia
Jan 26th 2009, 11:25 AM
Are you saying it is less, or are you thinking I said it was less, I'm confused?

Obviously, a person cannot be "less" saved, that much we agree on, but as to whether or not a reward being less because one does not suffer tribulation I would disagree. Faithful is faithful, dieing to self and living for Christ is dieing to self and living for Christ, whether one is asked to suffer tribulation or not. Doing as ask is the issue, not tribulation or not, unless of course ask to suffer tribulation.

I can't formulate an idea using scripture to think the Lord will ask certain people to suffer tribulation.

I believe that every believer is called into suffering for the sake of the gospel, not just internally dying to self, but that it includes hardship, trial, persecution etc.

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

2Th 1:5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

2Ti 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

Believers are called into the "fellowship" of His suffering. This suffering is not from God, but God allows it to purify every generation of believers and distinctly the Bride before the return of Christ. The Saints are not called to experience God's wrath, but rather have protection through it so that He receives glory. And example being the children of Israel who witnessed the plagues in Egypt. The deliverance out of Egypt, and the plagues associated with, served as an eternal reminder throughout the following generations (even until today) of the unceasing zeal of Jehovah to free His people from bondage, bring glory to His name, and crush His adversaries.

Zep 2:3 Seek Jehovah, all the meek of the earth who have done His justice; seek righteousness; seek meekness. It may be that you shall be hidden in the day of the anger of Jehovah.

The question then remains, "Is it possible that God would allow believers to endure the wrath of Satan throughout the tribulation while being protected from His own wrath?"

TexasBeliever
Jan 26th 2009, 02:56 PM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:

I agree. I came out of the pretrib fog myself a few years ago.

Veretax
Jan 26th 2009, 03:25 PM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:


It is an interesting discussion, and while I hold a pre-trib belief, I don't cling to it like some do. However, I've always even before I was a pre-trib believer, took those verses to mean that when Christ returns for his final judgement on the world to reign literally on earth that he captures/rescues his people alive on earth by bringing them to him, before he begins to perform the battle that sets up the Millenial kingdom. This to me is not the same as the rapture, as in the rapture, we are caught to him in the clouds, where as here, he is gathering those who remain to himself to take them out of the wrath he is about to pour out.

This to me is different then the Rapture, for unlike the "prewrather's" I see all of the Tribulation as part of God's wrath. How many years did Israel/Judah suffere before Nebuchadnezzer finally overthrew them?


I am of the believe that all of the Tribulation is part of God's wrath, the begining of the birth pains which will give birth to the millenial reign of Christ. I don't believe we will be here for it, althougH I do believe many will be saved during that time.


You're sure to get responses with a plethora of verses about why the "rapture" comes before the tribulation.

Reasons why I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture:


As shown above, Christ very explicitly placed His Coming as happening after the tribulation and persecution of His disciples.
Not a single time does Christ ever speak of a "secret coming" for His followers before the tribulation was to happen.
In His parable of the farmer (Matthew 13), Christ outright depicts the righteous and wicked as living together during "the end of the age", not the righteous being removed beforehand.
And then when "the end" actually came around, who is it we see taken away first? The wicked. That kind of throws the whole thing for a loop, huh?
Christ prayed that His disciples would not be taken out of the world.
Paul prophesied that the "rapture" would happen at the last trumpet. When we read the Revelation, the last trumpet sounds off to mark when Christ's rule over the earth was established and that the judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) had come.
The various verses from the epistles that speak of a "rapture" are indistinguishable from the verses that speak of the resurrection, which was to take place at the time of the Coming.






Yep, after the tribulation Christ returns, however, here it says His angels gather the elect, so is that the same as blowing a trumpet and the dead in Christ and the living in Christ meeting Him in the clouds, and then, do they meet Him in the clouds as He is coming back in the "darkened" sky? Or do they watch Him come back then meet Him in the clouds? And that would be after the angels gathered them, but except I would think it difficult to gather them, after they saw Him coming and then them meet Him in the air to come back with Him.

All the saints, as in only one group, can respond to the the sound of the trumpet and meet Him in the clouds and watch Him come, be gathered by angels and come back with Him all in the same event.

These verses really do nothing to thwart pre trib.

What they do is make it clear that all will see Christ upon His Second Advent and that the angels will gather saints. And it makes clear that there are saints who survive the GT.

John146
Jan 26th 2009, 05:59 PM
Just curious. How is Christ able to gather His elect that are in heaven if they have not previously risen there?That's speaking of the souls of the elect, just as this passage speaks about:

1 Thess 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The souls of the dead in Christ are gathered and will be united with their new bodies and those who are alive and remain will also be changed and will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. So, the elect that are gathered from heaven are the dead in Christ while the elect gathered from earth are those who are alive and remain.

John146
Jan 26th 2009, 06:02 PM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:I'm curious as to why Matthew 24:29-31 wasn't enough to convince her since it says about the same thing as the passage from Mark 13?

quiet dove
Jan 26th 2009, 09:11 PM
I can't formulate an idea using scripture to think the Lord will ask certain people to suffer tribulation.

There are "certain" people suffering persecution as we speak but yet we are not, why is that? And that is even more difficult to figure out because there has been no rapture, there has been no catching away of those in Christ as will happen with the rapture. Any one suffering persecution during the GT, had they said yes to Christ prior to the rapture, they would not have been here for the GT in the first place.

So why do some suffer persecution and some not? We would have to ask God. But as far as those here during the GT, they are here because they had refused Christ and missed the rapture, and then were saved after the GT begins.



I believe that every believer is called into suffering for the sake of the gospel, not just internally dying to self, but that it includes hardship, trial, persecution etc.

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

2Th 1:5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

2Ti 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

Believers are called into the "fellowship" of His suffering. This suffering is not from God, but God allows it to purify every generation of believers and distinctly the Bride before the return of Christ. The Saints are not called to experience God's wrath, but rather have protection through it so that He receives glory. And example being the children of Israel who witnessed the plagues in Egypt. The deliverance out of Egypt, and the plagues associated with, served as an eternal reminder throughout the following generations (even until today) of the unceasing zeal of Jehovah to free His people from bondage, bring glory to His name, and crush His adversaries.

Zep 2:3 Seek Jehovah, all the meek of the earth who have done His justice; seek righteousness; seek meekness. It may be that you shall be hidden in the day of the anger of Jehovah.

The question then remains, "Is it possible that God would allow believers to endure the wrath of Satan throughout the tribulation while being protected from His own wrath?"I never said that Christians were not called to follow in Christ steps, as suffering servants, but that has nothing to do with God's wrath upon the unjust during the GT. There is suffering upon the earth now, Satan's wrath has been ongoing and will excalate during the GT, but at present God's wrath is not being poured out, His mercy is. And even in a time of God's mercy many Christians suffer the persecution of the Satan via the many unbelievers upon the earth.

To me, when I think about all those out there suffering, all the more reason to say "please Lord, blow the trumpet, take us from here". My life is fine, but there are many whos lives are not. All the more reason to long to hear that particular trumpet sound, for all the others, not necessarily my self, though I long to hear it.

Joyfulparousia
Jan 27th 2009, 12:47 AM
But as far as those here during the GT, they are here because they had refused Christ and missed the rapture, and then were saved after the GT begins.

Brother, I cannot find a verse to support this idea. Where does it say in the bible that people refuse Christ and miss the rapture?

crush
Jan 27th 2009, 01:01 AM
Brother, I cannot find a verse to support this idea. Where does it say in the bible that people refuse Christ and miss the rapture?
I believe this is one of the tenets of pre-trib belief in an attempt to reconcile passages like Rev 12:17 and others. It is apparent from scripture that believers are persecuted and killed at the hand of the Beast during the Great Tribulation. So pre-trib doctrine says these had to be saved after the rapture, otherwise they would not be on Earth at the mercy of the Beast.

quiet dove
Jan 27th 2009, 01:12 AM
Brother, I cannot find a verse to support this idea. Where does it say in the bible that people refuse Christ and miss the rapture?

By default, it says the dead in Christ and those still living will meet Him in the clouds, so by default, those that are not in Christ, be they dead or alive, will not be meeting Him in the clouds.

threebigrocks
Jan 27th 2009, 01:18 AM
I'm curious as to why Matthew 24:29-31 wasn't enough to convince her since it says about the same thing as the passage from Mark 13?

Sometimes you know how you can read the same passage 100 times, and then whammo - a light goes off? Especially when you read the way another person words it, just the rewording the same thing can have the same revelation in one's brain.

Least, in my opinion. :rolleyes:

markedward
Jan 27th 2009, 01:28 AM
Not to be pushy, but I've noticed no one responded to my post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1957374&postcount=3) on page 1? (Well, Veretax quoted it, but I'm not sure what the context was...) I'm just wondering if anyone had any specific responses to what I had to say.

quiet dove
Jan 27th 2009, 03:02 AM
You're sure to get responses with a plethora of verses about why the "rapture" comes before the tribulation.

Reasons why I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture:


As shown above, Christ very explicitly placed His Coming as happening after the tribulation and persecution of His disciples.

His Second Advent is after the GT and all the ones who accept Christ during the GT will most likely be persecution, or a good many of them.


Not a single time does Christ ever speak of a "secret coming" for His followers before the tribulation was to happen.I am not sure how, who or where "secret rapture" got started, but it is simply a way of describing or distinguishing between an event that effects the Bride and the Second Advent, which is visible to all upon the earth. The word "secret" is really not accurate as it is obviously not a "secret", everyone is talking about it, believers, non-believers. We are talking about it now, it is hardly a "secret".


In His parable of the farmer (Matthew 13), Christ outright depicts the righteous and wicked as living together during "the end of the age", not the righteous being removed beforehand And then when "the end" actually came around, who is it we see taken away first? The wicked. That kind of throws the whole thing for a loop, huh?No, because at His Second Advent there will be believers and nonbelievers alive on the earth. We also have the saints watching Him come and also coming with Him.


Christ prayed that His disciples would not be taken out of the world.Christ prayer is that His disciples would be safe from the evil one while they remained in the world, safe from His deception. He also teaches about the times of Noah and Lot both of whom were removed from God's wrath, they were not in any danger of even being persecuted by Satan as the saints are said to be during the GT.


Paul prophesied that the "rapture" would happen at the last trumpet. When we read the Revelation, the last trumpet sounds off to mark when Christ's rule over the earth was established and that the judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) had come.A gathering trumpet and a judgment trumpet are two different things, and there is no trumpet in Rev 20:11-15 anyway.





The various verses from the epistles that speak of a "rapture" are indistinguishable from the verses that speak of the resurrection, which was to take place at the time of the Coming.

Ok, but that does not prevent there being a rapture, just says there will be a resurrection. Revelation mentions a first resurrection which makes a strong insinuation of more than one.

markedward
Jan 27th 2009, 05:41 AM
His Second Advent is after the GT and all the ones who accept Christ during the GT will most likely be persecution, or a good many of them.Except, where does Christ (or anyone else) prophesy that believers will be "raptured" from off of the earth before the tribulation starts?


I am not sure how, who or where "secret rapture" got started, but it is simply a way of describing or distinguishing between an event that effects the Bride and the Second Advent, which is visible to all upon the earth. The word "secret" is really not accurate as it is obviously not a "secret", everyone is talking about it, believers, non-believers. We are talking about it now, it is hardly a "secret".I'm honestly wondering if you're answering this facetiously. "Secret" as in "unseen", no "signs" to mark when it happens (as opposed to "what shall be the signs of Your coming").


No, because at His Second Advent there will be believers and nonbelievers alive on the earth. We also have the saints watching Him come and also coming with Him.Yet, once again, not once in this parable does Christ mention the sudden disappearance of His faithful before this "tribulation" period.


Christ prayer is that His disciples would be safe from the evil one while they remained in the world, safe from His deception.Both. "I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one." He didn't say "while they remain in the world". He said "Don't take them out of the world."


He also teaches about the times of Noah and Lot both of whom were removed from God's wrath, they were not in any danger of even being persecuted by Satan as the saints are said to be during the GT.This may be a matter of perspective but... who was "left behind"? Noah? Or the wicked? Noah was the one who remained on the earth, it was the wicked who were "taken away".


A gathering trumpet and a judgment trumpet are two different things,Where are you making this distinction? All Paul said was that at the "last trumpet". He didn't say "the last trumpet is not the same thing as a judgment trumpet" and he didn't say "a gathering trumpet is different from a judgment trumpet". He simply said "at the last trumpet", and when we actually see the last trumpet, we are told that it was "time for the dead to be judged" (11:18). You're making a distinction between "the last trumpet" that Paul speaks of and "the last trumpet" that is seen in the Revelation, when, description-wise, there is no difference. Paul said that Christ would come with "the last trumpet". John describes the last trumpet, and, lo and behold, it is when Christ is declared the victor. Are you saying the Coming and Christ's victory don't take place at the same time?


and there is no trumpet in Rev 20:11-15 anyway.I didn't say there was. What I said was that Revelation 11 depicts "the last trumpet", which is explicitly shown to be the announcement of the judgment of the dead. Revelation 20:11-15 is the judgment of the dead. Which means, chronologically, 20:11-15 takes place right after the sounding of the seventh and final trumpet. Hm... the last trumpet seen in Revelation is the one that signals the throne judgment. And Christ describes the throne judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) as taking place at the end of the age. And the end of the age is when Christ said He would come in glory with His angels to gather the elect (Matthew 13, Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24, Matthew 25:31). And Paul said Christ would come in glory with His angels to gather the elect when the last trumpet sounded. It's all so intertwined.


Ok, but that does not prevent there being a rapture, just says there will be a resurrection. Revelation mentions a first resurrection which makes a strong insinuation of more than one.Well, what I would like to simply ask for here is, can you please provide me with (a) verse(s) that talks about a pre-tribulation rapture of the followers of Christ?

shepherdsword
Jan 27th 2009, 06:01 AM
Not to be pushy, but I've noticed no one responded to my post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1957374&postcount=3) on page 1? (Well, Veretax quoted it, but I'm not sure what the context was...) I'm just wondering if anyone had any specific responses to what I had to say.

Here is the jist of it and I agree with most of this:



You're sure to get responses with a plethora of verses about why the "rapture" comes before the tribulation.

Reasons why I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture:


As shown above, Christ very explicitly placed His Coming as happening after the tribulation and persecution of His disciples.
Not a single time does Christ ever speak of a "secret coming" for His followers before the tribulation was to happen.
In His parable of the farmer (Matthew 13), Christ outright depicts the righteous and wicked as living together during "the end of the age", not the righteous being removed beforehand.
And then when "the end" actually came around, who is it we see taken away first? The wicked. That kind of throws the whole thing for a loop, huh?
Christ prayed that His disciples would not be taken out of the world.
Paul prophesied that the "rapture" would happen at the last trumpet. When we read the Revelation, the last trumpet sounds off to mark when Christ's rule over the earth was established and that the judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) had come.
The various verses from the epistles that speak of a "rapture" are indistinguishable from the verses that speak of the resurrection, which was to take place at the time of the Coming.

This is the one I want to take issue with:



And then when "the end" actually came around, who is it we see taken away first? The wicked. That kind of throws the whole thing for a loop, huh?


I used to believe this totally but I heard a sermon by Perry Stone ( a TOTAL pre tribber) I lean toward post tribulation but he did throw a wrench in my interpretation of the "taking away" in Matthew 24. Lets' see how you respond to this Mark. It made me change my position regarding the verses (keep in mind that 'where the carcass the eagles will be gathered was in verse 28 )

Matt 24:40-41
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Lets look at the key greek words here.

1) Taken(paralambánetai:this actually renders "shall be taken")

NT:3880
aralambano (par-al-am-ban'-o); from NT:3844 and NT:2983; to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy, to assume an office; figuratively, to learn:
KJV - receive, take (unto, with).


This "taken" is an intimate act! Not one of judgment.

2)Left(aphiemi) ....from "the other left"


NT:863
aphiemi (af-ee'-ay-mee); from NT:575 and hiemi (to send; an intens. form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):
KJV - cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.


We see here that these that are left are forsaken. This turns the table on the "taken away" as being one of judgement. However, this doesn't prove the pre trib "rapture" doctrine since :
Matt 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

clearly shows that this "taken away" occues AFTER the tribulation. It does

markedward
Jan 27th 2009, 06:18 AM
shepherdsword,

You do make good points regarding the language in Matthew 24 (stuff I'd not heard before, actually), but I think I spoke unclearly. What you say about Matthew 24 seems to be true, that the "taken" are the righteous, and the "left behind" are the wicked. This is essentially what happens in Revelation 14. However, Matthew 13 very plainly depicts the wicked as being picked out "first" at the end. I apologize for not clarifying myself, but the point I was really trying to make was that, in either case, the "taking" of the righteous happens virtually at the same time of the "leaving" of the wicked, and in any and all cases, there is no "pre-tribulation rapture" being described.

Everytime He speaks of this event (the one commonly called a "rapture") it is always after the tribulation-period (that is, he always placed it at "the end"). We never see Christ describing a "taking" of the righteous before the tribulation. It simply is not a pre-tribulational "rapture" if Christ is placing the event at the same time as His Coming, which He very explicitly said was after the tribulation.

Which is why I'm asking for those who believe in a pre-trib rapture to provide verses that speak of it, whether in the gospels, or acts, or the epistles, or the Revelation. I used to believe a pre-trib rapture, but once I noticed that there aren't any verses that depict one, I dropped the idea.

possumliving
Jan 27th 2009, 06:22 AM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:

Praise the Lord! Only those that are decieved or cowards or just plain ignorant of the truth, I believe, will not be able to see the truth right in front of them.

Matt 24:25 See, I have warned you beforehand.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn {and} beat their breasts {and} lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].
Matt 24:31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.



Mark 13:23 But look to yourselves {and} be on your guard; I have told you everything beforehand.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after [the affliction and oppression and distress of] that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
Mark 13:25 And the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great (kingly) power and glory (majesty and splendor).
Mark 13:27 And then He will send out the angels and will gather together His elect (those He has picked out for Himself) from the four winds, from the farthest bounds of the earth to the farthest bounds of heaven.

Steph

shepherdsword
Jan 27th 2009, 06:30 AM
shepherdsword,

You do make good points regarding the language in Matthew 24 (stuff I'd not heard before, actually), but I think I spoke unclearly. What you say about Matthew 24 seems to be true, that the "taken" are the righteous, and the "left behind" are the wicked. This is essentially what happens in Revelation 14. However, Matthew 13 very plainly depicts the wicked as being picked out "first" at the end. I apologize for not clarifying myself, but the point I was really trying to make was that, in either case, the "taking" of the righteous happens virtually at the same time of the "leaving" of the wicked, and in any and all cases, there is no "pre-tribulation rapture" being described.

Everytime He speaks of this event (the one commonly called a "rapture") it is always after the tribulation-period (that is, he always placed it at "the end"). We never see Christ describing a "taking" of the righteous before the tribulation. It simply is not a pre-tribulational "rapture" if Christ is placing the event at the same time as His Coming, which He very explicitly said was after the tribulation.

Yes, VERY explicitly


Which is why I'm asking for those who believe in a pre-trib rapture to provide verses that speak of it, whether in the gospels, or acts, or the epistles, or the Revelation. I used to believe a pre-trib rapture, but once I noticed that there aren't any verses that depict one, I dropped the idea.

Gotcha, I guess I got so excited that I could use this new found knowledge of mine somewhere I just jumped at the chance without much forethought..apologies.

JesusMySavior
Jan 27th 2009, 07:25 AM
Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

He did not just say He would keep us from the trials, but the HOUR of trials as well, meaning away from the 7-years tribulation, hence a PRE-Tribulation rapture.


This verse has been taken out of context and is used erroneously with pre-trib doctrine.

Jesus is speaking to a specific church and ironically, he also says that their names can be blotted out of the Book of Life and those who persevere will escape God's WRATH, not tribulations. Jesus promised us tribulation - but the wrath of God has certainly been satisfied for those who have trusted Jesus as their Lord.

I just can't see any logical biblical basis for pre-trib without spiritualizing scripture (a very dangerous procedure) and twisting it around.

.02

Veretax
Jan 27th 2009, 12:58 PM
Not to be pushy, but I've noticed no one responded to my post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1957374&postcount=3) on page 1? (Well, Veretax quoted it, but I'm not sure what the context was...) I'm just wondering if anyone had any specific responses to what I had to say.

Apologies Markedward. I think I intended to say something when I quoted it, but either forgot or ran out of time.



You're sure to get responses with a plethora of verses about why the "rapture" comes before the tribulation.

Reasons why I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture:

1. As shown above, Christ very explicitly placed His Coming as happening after the tribulation and persecution of His disciples.
2. Not a single time does Christ ever speak of a "secret coming" for His followers before the tribulation was to happen.
3. In His parable of the farmer (Matthew 13), Christ outright depicts the righteous and wicked as living together during "the end of the age", not the righteous being removed beforehand.
4. And then when "the end" actually came around, who is it we see taken away first? The wicked. That kind of throws the whole thing for a loop, huh?
5. Christ prayed that His disciples would not be taken out of the world.
6. Paul prophesied that the "rapture" would happen at the last trumpet. When we read the Revelation, the last trumpet sounds off to mark when Christ's rule over the earth was established and that the judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) had come.
7. The various verses from the epistles that speak of a "rapture" are indistinguishable from the verses that speak of the resurrection, which was to take place at the time of the Coming.



My understanding and granted I don't claim to be an expert on the end times. I grew up in a church where the only thing we heard was that Christ one day would return. We viewed part of the events listed in Revelation as having already taken place, but a lot of it still waiting to be fullfilled, but end times study wasn't all that important to us.

I've only recently begun to believe ina Pre-tribulational Rapture, or at the very least a Mid-Tribulational one for one reason. I see the entire Tribulation or Great Tribulation period (I debate some whether the Great Tribulation is the entire 7 years or 3.5 years at this point), that these are God bringing his judgements to bear. God always preserves his remnant through such events, as he did when Babylon conquered Judah, as he did with Noah.

The part where we perhaps agree yet disagree is whether certain events prophesied are Man's tribulation, which honestly I don't believe is something we will necessarily be saved from, versus what is God's tribulation and bringing about the completion of his judgment on Mankind.

My understanding also, is that the Rapture is not a Secret Coming. If I am driving from my home in West Virginia to Pittsburgh, PA but I stop at the Mason dixon line, I have not yet COME to Pittsburgh, PA. I do not believe the rapture as seen in Thessalonians and hidden perhaps within the passages of Revelation counts as his second coming. I believe that only applies to when he touches his feet to the earth and comes through that shut gate of the City.


In regards to number 1. there were a number of things he did not teach on or at least were not in the Gospels. That Christ came to save all jews and gentiles alike was a mystery not revealed until Paul. So simply saying that because we have no record of Christ talking about it, does not necessarily make it false either. Of couse the absence of it does not make it true either, but you can't really prove a negative reliably. This goes along with #4 2, because We see all the Righteous caught to Christ in (I believe it was revelation, but without looking up the passage I'm not sure that's where it is), so either there is a flaw in our canon, or these two events are distinct and separate (Which even without a Pre-Trib rapture I believe. one is talking about judgment on Jerusalem, and another about the true End days.)

In 3, if its the parable I am thinking of, I believe many of what we are confusing as end times passages were actually in relationship to God's judging Israel and Jerusalem for rejecting the Messiah. This is of course an issue that not all agree upon.


As for 5, I'm not sure what verse you are citing there, could you give me the reference to review?

As fro 6, I've seen some convincing arguments about the trumpet reference perhaps not referring to revelation, because I don't believe revelation had been written yet when paul penned Thessalonians. It is not clear whether he knew what John did, or if only John was gifted with this prophecy, however, the argument that this could refer to the timing as this event happening on or at the end of the Feast of Trumpets is something that is perhaps worth considering. This is a mystery that for whatever reason The apostles either did not feel the need to explain, or were not permitted to explain back then.

As for 7, the main difference is that it does not just speak of the dead but living changing so :/ There are other questions that are still a mystery. When does this resurrection take place? Does it happen before or after the millenial reign. If you toss aside the idea of the rapture, then where does the final rebellion come from? There are some questions I'd love to hear answered from someone who does not subscribe to the Pre-Trib, or other Rapture scenarios.

One thing I know for certain, I trust that whatever the truth is about this rapture, that God's timing is pefect, and that anything I must endure, I can with his grace endure. So in the end, either way, I look for the coming of Christ, whether it be by rapture, or in triumph at the end.

Like I said though, I believe the Pre_Trib Rapture by faith, but even so, My focus is more on trying to live Christ like now, and letting God worry about the end times. It is interesting to discuss and debate what will happen, but I've seen some folks in other fellowships get so bent out of shape about it that they forget what they have in common and that being Christ.



There are "certain" people suffering persecution as we speak but yet we are not, why is that? And that is even more difficult to figure out because there has been no rapture, there has been no catching away of those in Christ as will happen with the rapture. Any one suffering persecution during the GT, had they said yes to Christ prior to the rapture, they would not have been here for the GT in the first place.

So why do some suffer persecution and some not? We would have to ask God. But as far as those here during the GT, they are here because they had refused Christ and missed the rapture, and then were saved after the GT begins.

I never said that Christians were not called to follow in Christ steps, as suffering servants, but that has nothing to do with God's wrath upon the unjust during the GT. There is suffering upon the earth now, Satan's wrath has been ongoing and will excalate during the GT, but at present God's wrath is not being poured out, His mercy is. And even in a time of God's mercy many Christians suffer the persecution of the Satan via the many unbelievers upon the earth.

To me, when I think about all those out there suffering, all the more reason to say "please Lord, blow the trumpet, take us from here". My life is fine, but there are many whos lives are not. All the more reason to long to hear that particular trumpet sound, for all the others, not necessarily my self, though I long to hear it.

This is my belief as well, and hope, that God will deliver us from these times that are coming.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 27th 2009, 01:14 PM
I'm curious as to why Matthew 24:29-31 wasn't enough to convince her since it says about the same thing as the passage from Mark 13?
I never said we had read Matthew 24 together! ;) My opinion on the matter has been quite settled some time ago. The refreshing way she simply took the passage at face value without a load of theological baggage was wonderful, which is what I wanted to point out.

forum lurker
Jan 27th 2009, 02:16 PM
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

I believe what's part of the confusion, is that most people (non-Christian anyway) don't see the tribulation ending after this verse. I think this verse speaks about the tribulation of the man of sin ending, and the beginning of the Lord's. I don't think they won't overlap each other, but it's clearly a significant point.

Joyfulparousia
Jan 27th 2009, 02:23 PM
By default, it says the dead in Christ and those still living will meet Him in the clouds, so by default, those that are not in Christ, be they dead or alive, will not be meeting Him in the clouds.

How did we arrive at the idea of 3 comings of Christ?

David Taylor
Jan 27th 2009, 09:34 PM
How did we arrive at the idea of 3 comings of Christ?

I've always understood the Pretrib set of comings to be like this:

Coming #1: Christ came from Heaven at his Nativity.

Coming #2: Christ will come from Heaven again to pre-trib rapture the church.

Coming #3: Christ will come from from Heaven a third time at The Glorious Appearing/Armegeddon.


Postribulationalists, or non-tribulationalists would say that #2 and #3 are the same Coming from Heaven and that all endtime activities regard Christ returning from Heaven occur then. (gathering believers, judging the wicked)

Kahtar
Jan 27th 2009, 09:48 PM
I've always understood the Pretrib set of comings to be like this:

Coming One: Christ came from Heaven at His nativity

Us Going: We rise up to Him in the heavens

Coming Two: Christ will come a second time to earth, and us with him.

David Taylor
Jan 28th 2009, 12:23 AM
I've always understood the Pretrib set of comings to be like this:

Coming One: Christ came from Heaven at His nativity

Us Going: We rise up to Him in the heavens

Coming Two: Christ will come a second time to earth, and us with him.


Then this passage can only fit in your 3rd choice above....

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven" I Thess 4:15

Works for me! :)

BroRog
Jan 28th 2009, 01:56 AM
Then this passage can only fit in your 3rd choice above....

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven" I Thess 4:15

Works for me! :)

To be fair to Pretrib, (I'm not Pretrib) I believe a Pretrib person would point out that the saints go up to meet the Lord, which strongly implies that he doesn't actually make it all the way down.

Did I get that right?

David Taylor
Jan 28th 2009, 04:20 AM
So when the Lord "descends from heaven" at "His Coming" it really means He:

"stays in heaven"
or
"goes back up into heaven"
or
"comes from Earth to Heaven"?

shepherdsword
Jan 28th 2009, 04:26 AM
So do the pretribbers think Jesus is coming three times? I consider a descent into the atmosphere an actual coming. I used to know all this stuff but I have moved on to other things so a good verbose explanation by someone who knows all the major positions would be cool. Some one who can break it DOWN for us folks who focus on other things in the word

BroRog
Jan 28th 2009, 02:40 PM
So when the Lord "descends from heaven" at "His Coming" it really means He:

"stays in heaven"
or
"goes back up into heaven"
or
"comes from Earth to Heaven"?

Again, I'm not pretrib so my representation of their view will be limited. :) But as I recall, their hope is to be removed from the earth during the Tribulation period. So, I suppose Jesus comes down into the atmosphere, calls the church up, and returns to a safe place to wait out the storm. I believe Revelation 14 and 15 could be interpreted that way.

threebigrocks
Jan 28th 2009, 02:46 PM
Thing is - we are saved now through faith. Our spirit is redeemed. Our spirit, as a believer, waits for the completion of our redemption, salvation and faith - the resurrection of our bodies. Until then - nothing is complete.

When are our bodies raised? When is our flesh raised up and transformed to an eternal spiritual body?

Although what you guys have shared is good stuff, let's allow for assumption of some things so as to not take the thread completely off topic.

I now return you to your regular scheduled program... ;)

jesuslover1968
Jan 28th 2009, 02:59 PM
The theme is common in Matthew 24, to Mark 13 to Luke and all the way into Revelation 6 and 7. All of those passages show a gathering of the saints occurs after the tribulation. The signs are the same exact signs mentioned in each passage. They are the same. Thessalonians also mentions that the rapture cannot occur until the man of sin is revealed.

One has to fight hard to say this is not a gathering of the saints (i.e. a rapture) that occurs after the tribulation. Perhaps there's another rapture. But the scripture pretty much says there is a gathering (i.e.) rapture of the saints after the tribulation in all those passages does it not?

The seal is for protection from the wrath of the Lamb.

I see the first part as the wrath of satan and man. But after Rev 6 and 7, the wrath of God is poured out and his saints do not experience His wrath.

I am only about half way through reading of this thread to catch up, but I wanted to ask this question before I forget. :)
Who opens the seven seals that START the tribulation?
I also want to add that satan and man can do nothing without God's power, so to say that the trib is satan's and man's wrath is giving them a power they alone do not possess. We should give ALL our Glory to the Lord. The awsomely terrible time that comes upon this earth will NOT be of man, or satan. GOD may USE them to further HIS plan and HIS will, but it is not for their credit, but for their judgement to hell. God Bless.

jesuslover1968
Jan 28th 2009, 03:06 PM
Also, as mighty and strong as Michael, I figure, is, he still does not have the authority to "restrain" in this context. The restrainment of not only evil but more importantly deception. Or more dangerously would be true also really.

I agree.

Michael is not strong enough to restrain evil. When contending for the body of Moses, he said the LORD rebuke thee. If that was for only one body, how could he possibly restrain all of evil?

Jud 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jud&c=1&v=9&t=KJV#comm/9)Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

John146
Jan 28th 2009, 04:30 PM
Again, I'm not pretrib so my representation of their view will be limited. :) But as I recall, their hope is to be removed from the earth during the Tribulation period. So, I suppose Jesus comes down into the atmosphere, calls the church up, and returns to a safe place to wait out the storm. I believe Revelation 14 and 15 could be interpreted that way.I know some pretribs try to say that the "rapture" is not a coming of Christ, but the text clearly refutes that claim.

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We don't meet the Lord in heaven or in the heavens, since it says He descends from heaven. It can only mean that we meet Him up in the earth's atomosphere, but not on land or in heaven. Which makes sense to me since 2 Peter 3:10-12 says the earth is going to be burned up on that day.

BroRog
Jan 28th 2009, 05:39 PM
I know some pretribs try to say that the "rapture" is not a coming of Christ, but the text clearly refutes that claim.

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We don't meet the Lord in heaven or in the heavens, since it says He descends from heaven. It can only mean that we meet Him up in the earth's atomosphere, but not on land or in heaven. Which makes sense to me since 2 Peter 3:10-12 says the earth is going to be burned up on that day.

I didn't know that some Pretrib teachers assert that the rapture isn't a coming of the Lord. And I don't know why I am defending their position since I don't agree with it. But I just want to be fair and not misrepresent them. I understood that the Pretrib position saw two comings of the Lord. Maybe I'm wrong. And I stand corrected.

I certainly agree that the Lord returns after the Tribulation. So I guess I shouldn't have said anything. But I just want to be fair. That's all.

:)

I hope there is no misunderstanding.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 05:44 PM
I agree.

Michael is not strong enough to restrain evil. When contending for the body of Moses, he said the LORD rebuke thee. If that was for only one body, how could he possibly restrain all of evil?

Jud 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jud&c=1&v=9&t=KJV#comm/9)Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

No one is restraining all evil now. Michael was able to resist Satan then. Is it not possible that he can resist him and hold him back till the appointed time using the same exact "The Lord rebuke thee" comment?

Veretax
Jan 28th 2009, 05:54 PM
I didn't know that some Pretrib teachers assert that the rapture isn't a coming of the Lord. And I don't know why I am defending their position since I don't agree with it. But I just want to be fair and not misrepresent them. I understood that the Pretrib position saw two comings of the Lord. Maybe I'm wrong. And I stand corrected.

I certainly agree that the Lord returns after the Tribulation. So I guess I shouldn't have said anything. But I just want to be fair. That's all.

:)

I hope there is no misunderstanding.


I suppose the problem is that even the Jews saw what we know as the second coming of the Messiah in the OT. They thought that when the Messiah came that this is how he would come and did not understand why Christ came.

The main reason I think some Pre-trib teachers say this is to differentiate the rapture from the triumphant return at the near end of Revelation. Now we know there are least 3 or three areas that are referred to as heavens according to the bible, one is the clouds we see, and I've assumed that the second is space, but I'm not 100% confident on that.

quiet dove
Jan 28th 2009, 06:25 PM
Thing is - we are saved now through faith. Our spirit is redeemed. Our spirit, as a believer, waits for the completion of our redemption, salvation and faith - the resurrection of our bodies. Until then - nothing is complete.

When are our bodies raised? When is our flesh raised up and transformed to an eternal spiritual body?

Although what you guys have shared is good stuff, let's allow for assumption of some things so as to not take the thread completely off topic.

I now return you to your regular scheduled program... ;)

Just an FYI guys, some of us, including myself, had successfully derailed this thread, so if you are missing a post here, check BC "Where we go when we die" (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=156552) .

And as TBR stated

"Now back to your regularly scheduled program" :)

IBWatching
Jan 28th 2009, 08:29 PM
Praise the Lord! Only those that are decieved or cowards or just plain ignorant of the truth, I believe, will not be able to see the truth right in front of them...

Then there are those who are forced by their search for the Truth to consider all the details of this and other passages together. IOW, no "cherry picking". There's part of the Truth, then there's the whole Truth.

Who's doing the gathering? Angels, or Jesus Christ?

Marjiealm
Jan 29th 2009, 01:15 AM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:

My understanding of this from my brother - in - laws view (Southern Baptist Minister) The Elect in that scripture are the 144,000. Now we may be wrong ... but I believe it to be something to further look into.

Marjiealm
Jan 29th 2009, 01:20 AM
The 144,000 are scattered about the earth as a last ditch to try to bring those to Christ.

Veretax
Jan 29th 2009, 01:42 PM
My understanding of this from my brother - in - laws view (Southern Baptist Minister) The Elect in that scripture are the 144,000. Now we may be wrong ... but I believe it to be something to further look into.


I thought it was possible from the reading of that passage that it was 144,000 and a great number of gentile believers.

Teleiosis
Jan 29th 2009, 02:59 PM
The 144,000 are scattered about the earth as a last ditch to try to bring those to Christ.

Well we can look at that belief in light of Scripture:

Rev 14:4 They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.
So while a lot of people think that the 144,000 evangelize the Jews and from them draw the "tribulation saints" who then make up the Elect, that belief or thinking is not backed up by Scripture - indeed Scripture refutes it entirely.

The Elect is a term the Apostles used for the Church in the New Testament. It was only after Antioch where the beginning Church who were Jewish learned that salvation had come also to the Gentiles in fulfillment of Isaiah 49:6 (beginning in Acts 10:44) that the Gospels were even written.

If we are going to understand the term the Synoptic Gospels use for those who are gathered up, we're going to have to place the word the authors use in the context of their time some twenty years after Jesus' ministry as the Church was growing.

Hence, Elect, people selected by God: both Jew and Gentile.

Mark

Teleiosis
Jan 29th 2009, 03:15 PM
The Olivet Discourse in Matthew, Mark and Luke provides the Keystone passage which allows us to sequence the Seal account's (Revelation's parallel account within that book of chapters 4-11 excluding the sidebar account of the Temple and Two Witnesses of 11:1-13) sixth Seal within the one 'seven' of Daniel 9:27.


We can do this because Jesus mentions three specific and unique events in linear narrative order:
The (midpoint) abomination(s)
The Great Tribulation
The Sun/moon/star event.
- The first is described by Gabriel to Daniel in Daniel 9:27.
- The third is the signature event to the Day of the Lord in Old Testament prophecy and is replicated as some of the events which occur after the sixth Seal is broken.

Because of these specific and unique markers to Jesus' sequence of events which precede the Rapture, we can definitely afix the sixth Seal as happening at some nebulous time after the midpoint.

This time is nebulous because one: the Great Tribulation is going on, two: the Elect are being reduced and the Father has a number of whom will be martyred to make up the fifth Seal, and three: no one, not even Jesus, knows when the Day of the Lord will come - and it's HIS Day!

I can graphically depict this confluence between the Seal chronology in Revelation, the Olivet Discourse, and Daniel's one 'seven' like this:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Keystone.jpg

KEY:
Israeli flag: covenant with many - starts the one 'seven.'
Black/grey bar: Abomination(s) of Daniel 9:27
Red & white diagonal striping: the Great Tribulation
narrow Gold Bar: the Sun/moon/star event which signifies the Day of the Lord

Because Jesus gives us the key passage with which to sequence the Day of the Lord which happens with the opening of the sixth Seal, we can peg the sixth Seal within the one 'seven' and display three of the specific and unique events which happen in the one 'seven' like this:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/marcus_o_reillius/eschatology/Seal05b.jpg

Key:
Big gold bar at the end: Jesus' victory over the world and the wicked.

Yes, this does wipe out any Pre-Trib (which is a lousy name for the one 'seven') Rapture.

Mark

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 04:27 PM
No one is restraining all evil now. Michael was able to resist Satan then. Is it not possible that he can resist him and hold him back till the appointed time using the same exact "The Lord rebuke thee" comment?


yes, but my point is that it isn't really Michael doing it then, it is God, or more specifically, God the Holy Spirit. :) ...through the Church, Which is who I believe is restraining the evil that the ac will unleash...

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 04:32 PM
I know some pretribs try to say that the "rapture" is not a coming of Christ, but the text clearly refutes that claim.



It isn't a "coming" to the earth, or the second coming. That is the way I believe. I have never heard anything different from the pretrib view. If they don't think Jesus came in the air so that we would rise and meet Him, just exactly what did these particular pretribs believe that you speak of?

Marjiealm
Jan 29th 2009, 04:41 PM
When the Rapture occurs ... it is Jesus coming in the clouds, and we are to meet him in the air. His second coming is when he places his foot on the Mount of Olives. ;)

John146
Jan 29th 2009, 05:28 PM
It isn't a "coming" to the earth, or the second coming. That is the way I believe.But it is a coming down from heaven. The Greek word used in that verse (1 Thess 4:15) is parousia and it is the same word used in Matthew 24:27.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You believe that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is not related to this passage because it doesn't say anything about Jesus coming all the way down to the earth. Well, neither does Matthew 24:27-31. So, I don't see that as a valid reason for saying the two passages aren't related.


I have never heard anything different from the pretrib view.Didn't you see the post in this thread that spoke about believers rising to the heavens to meet Jesus?


If they don't think Jesus came in the air so that we would rise and meet Him, just exactly what did these particular pretribs believe that you speak of?That we will be caught up directly to heaven.

David Taylor
Jan 29th 2009, 05:41 PM
When the Rapture occurs ... it is Jesus coming in the clouds, and we are to meet him in the air. His second coming is when he places his foot on the Mount of Olives. ;)

The only scripture in the entire bible that speaks of Jesus coming to the Mt of Olives at His return, is Acts 1:12.

No other 2nd Coming passages in the bible mention this specific location in relation to His return.

So how can you accept other passages in the bible as 2nd Coming passages, since they don't mention the Mt of Olives specifically?

We meet Him in the air, as He is descending from Heaven...That is what I Thess 4 states...it never says He turns around and goes back up into Heaven....only that He is Descending from Heaven at His Coming, and that we meet Him as he does this.

Where does He once me meet? As you said, the Mt of Olives.

No scripture in the Bible tells us Jesus takes a group of people up into Heaven prior to the 2nd Coming. We are simple gathered to meet Him as He returns from Heaven at the 2nd Coming. We will be with Him forevermore, in the New Juerusalem on the Newly cleansed and remade Earth.

Rev 19:5 "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And as it wereI heard the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Rev 21:1-3, 9 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God"

We descend with Jesus to the New Earth once we meet Him in the air as He descends.

Only then will the tabernacle of God (Jesus Himself) be with men, and dwell with men on the cleaned and sin-removed Earth.

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 05:58 PM
But it is a coming down from heaven. The Greek word used in that verse (1 Thess 4:15) is parousia and it is the same word used in Matthew 24:27.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You believe that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is not related to this passage because it doesn't say anything about Jesus coming all the way down to the earth. Well, neither does Matthew 24:27-31. So, I don't see that as a valid reason for saying the two passages aren't related.

Didn't you see the post in this thread that spoke about believers rising to the heavens to meet Jesus?

That we will be caught up directly to heaven.


so you don't believe that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air?
What I really think is that you only said part of what pretribs believe because it makes it sound better for your view..
It may be a coming down from Heaven but it isn't a coming to earth. Pretribs DO believe the rapture is a coming...just not to the earth. It is a coming in the air. Misrepresenting what pretribs believe doesn't help your view at all.

When Jesus was here the first time. There was only ONE coming spoken of. Or wait...was it really two? :hmm: Yet After His death He arose, which is another coming...:) After He ascended He came back and was on the earth for many days, yet that wasn't spoken of, either...so tell me, do you deny that He actually CAME back after His resurrection....cause only one coming is mentioned....:):hug:

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 06:05 PM
The only scripture in the entire bible that speaks of Jesus coming to the Mt of Olives at His return, is Acts 1:12.

No other 2nd Coming passages in the bible mention this specific location in relation to His return.

So how can you accept other passages in the bible as 2nd Coming passages, since they don't mention the Mt of Olives specifically?

We meet Him in the air, as He is descending from Heaven...That is what I Thess 4 states...it never says He turns around and goes back up into Heaven....only that He is Descending from Heaven at His Coming, and that we meet Him as he does this.

Where does He once me meet? As you said, the Mt of Olives.

No scripture in the Bible tells us Jesus takes a group of people up into Heaven prior to the 2nd Coming. We are simple gathered to meet Him as He returns from Heaven at the 2nd Coming. We will be with Him forevermore, in the New Juerusalem on the Newly cleansed and remade Earth.

Rev 19:5 "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And as it wereI heard the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Rev 21:1-3, 9 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God"

We descend with Jesus to the New Earth once we meet Him in the air as He descends.

Only then will the tabernacle of God (Jesus Himself) be with men, and dwell with men on the cleaned and sin-removed Earth.


John 14


1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


Where was Jesus going when He said this? And when did this take place?

John146
Jan 29th 2009, 06:11 PM
so you don't believe that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air?Of course I do. I don't know what made you ask that.


What I really think is that you only said part of what pretribs believe because it makes it sound better for your view..And you would be wrong. Once again, I'm baffled by your comment. I have no idea what made you say that.



It may be a coming down from Heaven but it isn't a coming to earth. Pretribs DO believe the rapture is a coming...just not to the earth. It is a coming in the air. Misrepresenting what pretribs believe doesn't help your view at all. I only mentioned what some pretribs believe, so take it easy.


When Jesus was here the first time. There was only ONE coming spoken of. Or wait...was it really two? :hmm: Yet After His death He arose, which is another coming...:) After He ascended He came back and was on the earth for many days, yet that wasn't spoken of, either...so tell me, do you deny that He actually CAME back after His resurrection....cause only one coming is mentioned....:):hug:Whatever you say. ;)

David Taylor
Jan 29th 2009, 06:29 PM
John 14


1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


A beautiful passage of hope and comfort to every believer in times of grief and sadness.



Where was Jesus going when He said this?

Jesus was returning to the Father in Heaven.

Luke 24:51 "And it came to pass, while Jesus blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven."



And when did this take place?

Jesus (alone) returned to the Father soon after His resurrection as mentioned above.

We (individually) go to be with Him at our individual death.

Philippians 1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better"

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Marjiealm
Jan 29th 2009, 07:07 PM
The only scripture in the entire bible that speaks of Jesus coming to the Mt of Olives at His return, is Acts 1:12.

No other 2nd Coming passages in the bible mention this specific location in relation to His return.

So how can you accept other passages in the bible as 2nd Coming passages, since they don't mention the Mt of Olives specifically?

We meet Him in the air, as He is descending from Heaven...That is what I Thess 4 states...it never says He turns around and goes back up into Heaven....only that He is Descending from Heaven at His Coming, and that we meet Him as he does this.

Where does He once me meet? As you said, the Mt of Olives.

No scripture in the Bible tells us Jesus takes a group of people up into Heaven prior to the 2nd Coming. We are simple gathered to meet Him as He returns from Heaven at the 2nd Coming. We will be with Him forevermore, in the New Juerusalem on the Newly cleansed and remade Earth.

Rev 19:5 "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And as it wereI heard the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Rev 21:1-3, 9 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God"

We descend with Jesus to the New Earth once we meet Him in the air as He descends.

Only then will the tabernacle of God (Jesus Himself) be with men, and dwell with men on the cleaned and sin-removed Earth.


I have been studying scriptures for a very long time, and I have this as proof that Jesus will stand on the Mt of Olives

There is another scripture

Zechariah 14:1-4 (King James Version)

Zechariah 14


1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Marjiealm
Jan 29th 2009, 07:11 PM
Three Events That Happen at The Rapture
The scriptures of First Thessalonians 4 and 5 are familiar to most Christians as a description of the so-called "rapture of the church." The rapture can be thought of as a point in eternity which will protrude into our historical time frame at some fixed point on God's calendar. However, as we have seen, God has not given us the date.

Three specific events take place at the time Jesus calls his church out of the world:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven
(a) with a cry of command,
(b) with the archangel's call,
(c) and with the sound of the trumpet of God.
The "cry of command" from the lips of Jesus is to awake the dead in Christ and to call them forth from their graves as God called his friend Lazarus forth (John 11:43).

Only one archangel is called by name in Scripture. He is Michael whose specific jurisdiction is over the people of Israel. At the time of the Rapture, the archangel will signal to Israel that God has returned the focus of his attention at last to the final redemption of his chosen nation. This event was spoken of by Daniel:

"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered." (Daniel 12:1)
The trumpet call, not to be confused with the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation, is a trumpet call associated with the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles. It will be used to call the living saints at the time of the Rapture to be caught up and transformed together with the just-raised saints of the past. This is described also in 1 Corinthians 15,

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:50-58)
When an individual dies he or she leaves time and enters eternity. Some scholars think that all believers travel through eternity immediately, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," to arrive at the Rapture the next instant in his or her personal experience. If that is the case, all believers arrive in heaven at the same "time." Thus, "to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8) We may have difficulty picturing this if we do not realize that eternity runs according to an entirely different time than the one-dimensional time frame in which we are constrained to live while in our mortal bodies.
http://ldolphin.org/kingdom/ch4.html

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 07:20 PM
Of course I do. I don't know what made you ask that.

And you would be wrong. Once again, I'm baffled by your comment. I have no idea what made you say that.

I only mentioned what some pretribs believe, so take it easy.

Whatever you say. ;)


I asked that because you made it sound like pretribbers didn't consider the rapture as a sort of coming, which I have never heard a pretribber say or know them to believe...
No, I don't think I am wrong...why are you baffled? You could have just as easily said that you didn't agree with pretribbers because they say that Jesus' coming in the air is not His second coming, but a rapture...;)
I am taking it easy...:lol: And I ask you what pretribbers believe that? I have never heard that. Then I said that pretribbers don't consider Jesus' rapture of the Church as His second coming.

Marjiealm
Jan 29th 2009, 07:34 PM
Once Jesus raptures the church ... there is a marriage supper. I do agree with you there. I also never said we would go directly to heaven. I still have much to learn, and I will still be learning at Christ's 2nd Advent!

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 07:35 PM
A beautiful passage of hope and comfort to every believer in times of grief and sadness.



Jesus was returning to the Father in Heaven.

Luke 24:51 "And it came to pass, while Jesus blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven."



Jesus (alone) returned to the Father soon after His resurrection as mentioned above.

We (individually) go to be with Him at our individual death.

Philippians 1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better"

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."



Hi David...it's been a long time. :cool:
I knew one of you guys would say what you said.
John 14


1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


does Jesus come and get every single believer when they die? Also, what about:

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Thenwe which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with themin the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Doesn't sound so individual to me in this instance...

And I already know...you believe this is a second coming passage..but it isn't. :D

BroRog
Jan 29th 2009, 07:53 PM
But it is a coming down from heaven. The Greek word used in that verse (1 Thess 4:15) is parousia and it is the same word used in Matthew 24:27.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You believe that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is not related to this passage because it doesn't say anything about Jesus coming all the way down to the earth. Well, neither does Matthew 24:27-31. So, I don't see that as a valid reason for saying the two passages aren't related.

Didn't you see the post in this thread that spoke about believers rising to the heavens to meet Jesus?

That we will be caught up directly to heaven.

I can see there are others better qualified that I to take up the Pretrib side but I wonder what you think of the Matthew passage you cited here. The passage seems to suggest that Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven, which is a similar idea to the Thessalonians passage in which the saints meet the Lord in the air. (clouds?) I don't know. I'm beginning to wonder whether Jesus actually returns to earth at the rapture.

Marjiealm
Jan 29th 2009, 08:22 PM
I can see there are others better qualified that I to take up the Pretrib side but I wonder what you think of the Matthew passage you cited here. The passage seems to suggest that Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven, which is a similar idea to the Thessalonians passage in which the saints meet the Lord in the air. (clouds?) I don't know. I'm beginning to wonder whether Jesus actually returns to earth at the rapture.


He doesn't come to Earth at the Rapture ... he meets us halfway "In the Air!"

threebigrocks
Jan 29th 2009, 08:47 PM
Hi David...it's been a long time. :cool:
I knew one of you guys would say what you said.
John 14


1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


does Jesus come and get every single believer when they die? Also, what about:

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Thenwe which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with themin the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Doesn't sound so individual to me in this instance...

And I already know...you believe this is a second coming passage..but it isn't. :D

Oh, but it is. I agree with both you and David. We spiritually go to be with Christ when we die, free from death. We pass from death to life, but still have a portion of that to complete - the resurrection of our bodies or the physical. 'Tis a pattern we can hang our hat on in scripture through which many, many things are revealed - first the spiritual, then the physical. What is manifest in the spiritual will, eventually, be manifest in the physical.

And - that verse does apply to the second coming of Christ. ;) The we is speaking of all believers in their resurrection of the body. What else would it speak of?

jesuslover1968
Jan 29th 2009, 10:53 PM
Oh, but it is. I agree with both you and David. We spiritually go to be with Christ when we die, free from death.


Yes, I agree. I didn't say we didn't. I said Christ does NOT come to earth and get each one of us as we die. Our spirit goes into the presence of the Lord at our death...




We pass from death to life, but still have a portion of that to complete - the resurrection of our bodies or the physical. 'Tis a pattern we can hang our hat on in scripture through which many, many things are revealed - first the spiritual, then the physical. What is manifest in the spiritual will, eventually, be manifest in the physical.

Actually you have that kind of backwards....


1 Corinthians 15:45-47



45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.


I think I see what you are getting at though, and I agree. Except the little instance where there are some who are still alive and remain...they do not die physically. They were born spiritually dead but made alive in Christ without dying physically as they will be alive at His return.



And - that verse does apply to the second coming of Christ. ;) The we is speaking of all believers in their resurrection of the body. What else would it speak of?


The rapture of the Church...;) If Christ brings the dead in Him with Him to meet us in the air, then the dead in Him have already been resurrected, which means we will be resurrected as we go to meet Him in the air. :)

possumliving
Jan 30th 2009, 05:03 AM
Then there are those who are forced by their search for the Truth to consider all the details of this and other passages together. IOW, no "cherry picking". There's part of the Truth, then there's the whole Truth.

Who's doing the gathering? Angels, or Jesus Christ?

The angels are at His command. Are you accusing me of cherry picking? LOL! You don't know me very well do you? :lol:

And the whole truth is that only the adamant pretribs do the cherry picking, :lol:

Steph

possumliving
Jan 30th 2009, 05:47 AM
I have been studying scriptures for a very long time, and I have this as proof that Jesus will stand on the Mt of Olives

There is another scripture

Zechariah 14:1-4 (King James Version)

Zechariah 14


1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.



Okay, that's one awesome example but perhaps you should have gone a little further and posted the next couple of verses afterward because it shows the timing of this event.

Zech 14:1 BEHOLD, A day of the Lord is coming when the spoil [taken from you] shall be divided [among the victors] in the midst of you.
Zech 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zech 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
Zech 14:4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from the east to the west by a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north and half of it toward the south.
Zech 14:5 And you shall flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal, and you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my [Zechariah's] God shall come, and all the holy ones [saints and angels] with {Him.}
Zech 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day that there shall not be light; the glorious {and} bright ones [the heavenly bodies] shall be darkened.
Zech 14:7 But it shall be one continuous day, known to the Lord--not day and not night, but at evening time there shall be light.
Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern [Dead] Sea and half of them to the western [Mediterranean] Sea; in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zech 14:9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one.

Those aren't the only passages pertaining to Him coming back to earth. Try these on for size.

Deut 30:3 Then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion upon you and will gather you again from all the nations where He has scattered you.
Deut 30:4 Even if any of your dispersed are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and from there will He bring you.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory (majesty, splendor) of His Father with His angels, and then He will render account {and} reward every man in accordance with what he has done.
Matt 16:28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in (into) His kingdom.

Matt 24:3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?
Matt 24:4 Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error].
Matt 24:5 For many will come in (on the strength of) My name [appropriating the name which belongs to Me], saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.
Matt 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened {or} troubled, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
Matt 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in place after place;
Matt 24:8 All this is but the beginning [the early pains] of the birth pangs [of the intolerable anguish].
Matt 24:9 Then they will hand you over to suffer affliction {and} tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
Matt 24:10 And then many will be offended {and} repelled {and} will begin to distrust {and} desert [Him Whom they ought to trust and obey] {and} will stumble and fall away and betray one another {and} pursue one another with hatred.
Matt 24:11 And many false prophets will rise up and deceive {and} lead many into error.
Matt 24:12 And the love of the great body of people will grow cold because of the multiplied lawlessness {and} iniquity,
Matt 24:13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matt 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom (the Gospel) will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.

Matt 24:27 For just as the lightning flashes from the east and shines {and} is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Matt 24:36 But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Matt 24:37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matt 24:38 For just as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, [men] marrying and [women] being given in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah went into the ark,
Matt 24:39 And they did not know {or} understand until the flood came and swept them all away--so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Matt 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory (His majesty and splendor), and all the {holy} angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Matt 25:32 All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats;

Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him, You have stated [the fact]. More than that, I tell you: You will in the future see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Almighty and coming on the clouds of the sky.

Luke 21:25 And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth [there will be] distress (trouble and anguish) of nations in bewilderment {and} perplexity [without resources, left wanting, embarrassed, in doubt, not knowing which way to turn] at the roaring (the echo) of the tossing of the sea,
Luke 21:26 Men swooning away {or} expiring with fear {and} dread {and} apprehension and expectation of the things that are coming on the world; for the [very] powers of the heavens will be shaken {and} caused to totter.
Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with great (transcendent and overwhelming) power and [all His kingly] glory (majesty and splendor).
Luke 21:28 Now when these things begin to occur, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption (deliverance) is drawing near.

Acts 1:9 And when He had said this, even as they were looking [at Him], He was caught up, and a cloud received {and} carried Him away out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they were gazing intently into heaven as He went, behold, two men [dressed] in white robes suddenly stood beside them,
Acts 1:11 Who said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, Who was caught away {and} lifted up from among you into heaven, will return in [just] the same way in which you saw Him go into heaven.

1 Cor 1:7 That you are not [consciously] falling behind {or} lacking in any special spiritual endowment {or} Christian grace [the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating in your souls by the Holy Spirit], while you wait {and} watch [constantly living in hope] for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ {and} [His] being made visible to all.
1 Cor 1:8 And He will establish you to the end [keep you steadfast, give you strength, and guarantee your vindication; He will be your warrant against all accusation or indictment so that you will be] guiltless {and} irreproachable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

1 Cor 4:5 So do not make any hasty {or} premature judgments before the time when the Lord comes [again], for He will both bring to light the secret things that are [now hidden] in darkness and disclose {and} expose the [secret] aims (motives and purposes) of hearts. Then every man will receive his [due] commendation from God.

1 Tim 6:14 To keep all His precepts unsullied {and} flawless, irreproachable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Anointed One),
1 Tim 6:15 Which [appearing] will be shown forth in His own proper time by the blessed, only Sovereign (Ruler), the King of kings and the Lord of lords,

2 Tim 4:1 I CHARGE [you] in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, Who is to judge the living and the dead, and by (in the light of) His coming and His kingdom:

Titus 2:13 Awaiting {and} looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

Heb 9:28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself {and} bear as a burden the sins of many once {and} once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin {nor} to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for {and} expecting Him.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide (live, remain permanently) in Him, so that when He is made visible, we may have {and} enjoy perfect confidence (boldness, assurance) and not be ashamed {and} shrink from Him at His coming.

Rev 3:11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one may rob you {and} deprive you of your crown.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I am going to come like a thief! Blessed (happy, to be envied) is he who stays awake (alert) and who guards his clothes, so that he may not be naked and [have the shame of being] seen exposed!

Rev 22:7 And behold, I am coming speedily. Blessed (happy and to be envied) is he who observes {and} lays to heart {and} keeps the truths of the prophecy (the predictions, consolations, and warnings) contained in this [little] book.

Rev 22:20 He Who gives this warning {and} affirms {and} testifies to these things says, Yes (it is true). [Surely] I am coming quickly (swiftly, speedily). Amen (so let it be)! Yes, come, Lord Jesus!

So Jesus is returning to the earth, not just floating around in heaven. I can't see what is up on a cloud.

Steph

Marjiealm
Jan 30th 2009, 03:09 PM
Thank you Steph! I should have posted a couple others, but I wanted people to see that when Christ comes to earth, this Mountain is going to split in 2! You also found more scriptures than me too ... hmmm :) PTL!

IBWatching
Jan 30th 2009, 04:32 PM
...You don't know me very well do you? :lol:...

Apparently better than you realize. Your attitude against pre-trib speaks volumes. ;)

quiet dove
Jan 31st 2009, 02:01 AM
You guys need to knock it off, no "coward" comments or "cherry picking" comments unless you want "deleted" comments.

Knock it off!!

possumliving
Jan 31st 2009, 02:33 AM
Thank you Steph! I should have posted a couple others, but I wanted people to see that when Christ comes to earth, this Mountain is going to split in 2! You also found more scriptures than me too ... hmmm :) PTL!

I didn't have to look too hard! It was in the footnotes of my Bible. All I had to do was look them up and copy and paste.

Steph

Brian Lloyd
Mar 8th 2009, 03:06 PM
My wife and I have recently started reading the Gospel of Mark together. This morning, it was time to read Mark 13. Being more familiar with the end-time passages in Matthew, I did not realize this chapter discussed the return of Christ. What followed was surprising and worth writing a post about here.

Now my wife was raised AG and has always believed in a Pretribulation rapture. She's not the intellectual type, however, but very practical and down-to-earth when it comes to theological issues. As we were reading Mark 13, we came across the following passage in verses 24-27:

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.

Just wanted to share this with you all. ;) :saint:

Brian Lloyd.:
This is a common quote in the context of the "Rapture". IMO misunderstood. Many people think that Christians are the "elect"; which they are in the sense of "Predestination", but not in this passage you quote.
Those referred to in you quotation from Mark, are the "elect of Israel". It is worth remembering that Jesus "came only to the lost sheep of Israel"; and was talking to them here!
The following may help your thoughts and study of this subject which was on my heart and mind some years ago.

The Elect. (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20Elect%20Calvin%20onwards.htm)

This is a very controversial subject in Christendom. The classical definition is accepted by some as that of John Calvin, the well known theologian, and one of the important Protestant reformers of the 16th century. In fact there is considerable doubt as to whether Calvin was in fact the father of the classical definition, as it seems to have emerged after his death in AD 1564 under the influence of Theodore Beza. In fact Calvin himself refused to dogmatically conclude what many of his fellows and students readily accepted. But, what Calvin formally refused to confirm was embodied eventually in the Articles of the Synod of Dort (AD 1618-19). This definition holds that “Christ died only for the elect (chosen).” What this means in effect is that only some people are “elected” to be saved, which to the writer does not seem to conform to the whole of Scripture, and especially to the New Testament! It is however ironic that Calvin is now chained to that definition, in what became known as the “Calvin Secondary Form,” but was in fact under the force of Beza! Calvin is however on record as stating before his death that “election is related to the Person and Work of Christ”.

We know from the Holy Spirit inspired writings in Scripture, that Christ’s death was for the whole world, (John 3:16,) but only for those in the world that will accept the great sacrifice of Christ’s, not for those that refuse it! What that means in effect, is that the most base sinner, and even apparently necromancers, can be saved and have eternal life, but only while the offer is current, and it will be withdrawn at some stage in the future, some think soon!

Returning to “election,” Calvin’s latter statement chimes true to Scripture, as it states in Luke 23:35, that Jesus was the “chosen”, or "Anointed" of God. A few of the many other ref. are; Mat.16:16, Luke 4:41, Luke 24:25, as Messiah or Christ carry the same meaning! The Jews knew (know) the Old Testament well, (albeit the Pharisaic, "Orthodox" Jews of today, through the "filter" of their later "Writings", called by some "Wisdom"). However, in Biblical Judaism, the prophecies of Messiah are numerous. The Messiah, for whom the "Orthodox" Jews are still looking, is the “chosen” one, “the elect of God!” This makes clear that it is Christ who is elect, not people! This interpretation was also held by Dr. Robert Anderson, who spoke on the subject at the AD 1895 Keswick Convention. Those that accept Christ’s sacrifice in truth “by propitiation” are in the Beloved, and are therefore “elect!” This great truth allows for untold numbers to be saved, and for the harvest for God Almighty to be very great! This also shows the great wisdom of our Great God, in the “fall” in Eden being the beginning of a retrieval of so many souls, and also the beginning of the downfall of the great enemy Satan, whose end is yet to be played out, as shown in Revelation!

It is the great rebellion of Satan (using his freewill), at some time in the distant past, that is the originator of the God given Provision of Salvation through the death of Jesus, The Christ, at Calvary! His shed Blood Covers as many people as will receive it (by using their freewill); as per the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb in Egypt, for the children of Israel; for those that would allow themselves to be Covered by the Paschal Lamb ( those that didn't, died)!
Satan's perversion of God's Word to Adam, and Eve's "fall" followed by Adam, was as a result of accepting the changed Words of God! This process is still current, and people must be wary of the many "teachers", "preachers", and any person who would change or interpret Scripture in any way which makes the straightforward message of trust in Christ for Eternal Life; hard to understand, by small changes to words!

A common teaching of some Calvinists, is that only God decides who will be "saved"! That any form of "seeking" is useless, because all is determined many "Ages" ago! Some go as far as to say, "that even turning to God, seeking Him, finding Him in Christ, and making the decision to accept Him as Lord and Saviour"; is a form of work; and therefore invalid"! They are usually quite arrogant and aggressive in their statements, and extremely circular in their arguments, that even they become confused, and will contradict themselves on occasions! All of this is a usual sign of Satan's control in their minds as regards the Truth of Christ's Love for the world's peoples! They go as far as to say that if a person "accepts" Jesus as Saviour, their Salvation is invalid, because they "accepted", which they say is work! They also confuse the "Sovereignty" of God, stating that because the individual "accepted", they "usurped" God's Sovereignty; instead of realising that God is Sovereign over all! These are based on the Calvinist Concept of "Limited Election", which is also a mistaken concept, based on "only those favoured" being called! In these Definitions, the extreme Calvinist is using the method of the "Usurper"of the Garden of Eden, whose miss-use of the Words of God, led to the Fall.
A favourite method of persuasion is to quote passages in the New Testament which seem to confirm their case. These are usually taken out of context, or are given a "new context" by the speaker, with their own interpretation of what God meant! Here we must remember Eve in the Garden of Eden!
The following Links give some comments and clarity on this type of teaching:
http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20Call%20of%20God.htm (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20Call%20of%20God.htm)

http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Is%20Our%20Freewill%20Of%20Value%20Or%20Is%20Every thing%20Predestined.htm (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Is%20Our%20Freewill%20Of%20Value%20Or%20Is%20Every thing%20Predestined.htm)

http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20legitimate%20and%20illigitimate%20works%20te achings.htm (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20legitimate%20and%20illigitimate%20works%20te achings.htm)

Many Calvinists also believe that they "are the future Israel" of prophecy, which is in direct conflict with God's Word re. Israel!
http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20position%20of%20the%20Jews%20in%20Scripture, %20Old%20and%20New%20Testaments.htm (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20position%20of%20the%20Jews%20in%20Scripture, %20Old%20and%20New%20Testaments.htm)

A further element to the controversy of the “elect,” is that there is more than one group of elected peoples. This is where the exhortation by the great Apostle Paul is to be heeded and used (2Tim. 2:15). In this statement, Paul shows that the Bible must be properly “divided”, and that it must be “worked”at! A simple example of that is to understand that which applies to Christians (the true Body of Christ), does not apply to the unfortunates of Rev. 22, who are excluded from the Tree of Life! This extreme example is used only to illustrate the care that is needed in reading and understanding the context. The two main groups called the “elect” in Scripture are the Jews, and Christians (the true Body of Christ). It is essential for understanding to clearly differentiate all cases, to be able to understand what is being said, and to whom! In the case of the Jewish election, these are documented in many O.T. Scriptures, some of which are as follows. Gen.12:2-3, 7, Gen.13:14-17, Gen.15:5-6, 18-21, Gen.17:4-10, 21, Gen. 21:12-13. In Gal. 3:16, the NT also refers to “the promised seed,” that of Eden! The Jewish promised “election,” was at the beginning unconditional, and still is, that will be played out in future events! Conditions were not applied until Mount Sinai, when God wanted His people to perform a task of witness for Him to the surrounding nations, as to Him being the only True God! Their failure and refusal eventually led to God’s Glory leaving the Temple in Jerusalem, and their exile in Babylon! Under Ezra and Nehemiah, God re-established His people, but His “Shekina” did not return to the new temple. As per the prophecies of Daniel, and other O.T. prophets, Jesus was born, and as the “Christ” (Greek for Hebrew Messiah) and the “chosen” (elect) of God, was offered to the Jews for redemption. As Acts 28:26-27, sadly records, they finally refused Jesus as Christ, and shortly after they were rejected by God (temporarily), and made “lo-ammi” (not my people), and the offer of salvation has been held out to the nations (Gentiles) ever since, Acts 28:28!

This fact of temporary rejection of the Jews, and the offer being made available to the Gentiles, created the potential for the “elect” of the Body of Christ, and as stated is the second grouping of “elect” peoples. For this reason great care must be taken to ascertain which grouping of “elect” peoples are referred to in Scripture passages. An example of this is a much misunderstood passage in Matt. 24:24. The reference there to the “elect” is to the writer clearly referring to “the elect of Israel,” as the Body of Christ has been removed from the earth, and Israel are re-adopted, (Ammi, my people again)!




Subjectindex (http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Subjectindex.htm)

resbmc
Mar 30th 2009, 08:16 PM
Well let's use logic.

Christ keep saying no one will know when His second coming will take place, that it will be at a time where we least suspect it.

BUT, we can expect the glorious appearing, just calculate 7 years after the signing of the treaty of Israel. But His second coming is suppose to come at a time where we LEAST expect it, hence a rapture.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

He did not just say He would keep us from the trials, but the HOUR of trials as well, meaning away from the 7-years tribulation, hence a PRE-Tribulation rapture.
how is one hour turned into seven years, Rev 3 says one hour.

rom826
Apr 1st 2009, 12:10 AM
how is one hour turned into seven years, Rev 3 says one hour.

So do you believe that the true worshippers will worship God for only one hour?

John 4:23


But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Or could it be that the word "hour" in this context means "time" as the greek word for "hour" is translated 11 times?

Stephen1
Apr 1st 2009, 01:24 AM
The Lord's discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has nothing to do with the church, but with the generation of national Israel living at the time of the end .... this is who the Lord is speaking to regarding the time of the end .... His early followers were all Israelites .... He just would not reveal the beginning date of the time of the end to them and when He would restore the kingdom to the nation

This date will not come until the fullness of the Gentiles is added to the church .... and no one knows the time .... no one

Those who attempt to mix the church and Israel in these passages will never render them correctly

The "elect" spoken of in these passages and specifically in Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 25:31-46 are the Lord's "brethren" [His kin] .... the believing remnant part of national Israel

He is an Israelite by His humanity and He is the Messiah and King of national Israel .... Gentiles must not forget this truth ....

Volumes of the O.T. passages of the Bible prophets reveal this truth and the Lord is not yet finished with His nation .... for His purposes

The professing church [of both Jew and Gentile] is revealed in Matthew 25:1-13 [the kingdom of heaven] and in Revelation chapters 2 and 3

The evidence of the pre-tribulation "rapture" is given in Revelation 4,5, 7:9-17, 11:1, 12:12, 13:6, 17:14, 19:1-14, .... those that dwell in heaven and are already in the Lord's temple and around the throne

These will observe the tribulation period from the state of immortality

They are the ones on thrones [symbol of the Lord's government] seen in chapter 20:4 who are given the judgment

Those who will become believers during the tribulation period and martyred are seen in 6:9-11, 15:2-3, and 20:4 .... the ones beheaded for their faith .... these will have to wait under the alter until the end of the tribulation period for their resurrection

Their experience will be totally different than that of today's church [both those asleep and those living at the time of the Lord's "harpazo" action] who will be caught up to meet the Lord and immortalized in the process in an instant of time just before He brings His coming wrath against a world of intransigence and unbelief

Revelation 6:12-17 is the beginning of the tribulation period .... not the ending of it

Matthew 24:29-31 is the ending and the astute reader will note the distinct differences recorded in these two very significant passages of scripture

The gatherings immediately after the tribulation period are not resurrections, but gatherings of mortals

These who survive the tribulation period will be gathered from one end of the earth to other by the Lord's angels and He will separate them

The believing "elect" of Israel and the believing sheep of the nations [Gentiles] will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth ... the unbelieving goats will not

The 24 elders and great multitude of the church and the martyrs of the tribulation will rule with the Lord as immortals over His millennial kingdom on the earth for 1,000 years

Then the Lord will judge all of the spirits of the human unbelieving dead and destroy them in His lake of fire .... their names will not be found in His book of life

Next ..... the renovation of the heavens and earth and the beginning of eternity

Only the "wheat" [believers] will be gathered therein and inhabit the Lord's eternity .... the "tares" [all unbelievers] will burn in the lake of fire

Searcher1
Apr 1st 2009, 05:40 PM
As my wife read this, she commented that it basically doesn't get more obvious than this: AFTER that tribulation come the signs associated with Christ's return, THEN Christ returns and the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of the earth and the heaven. And I agree with her: this passage spells the end of pretribulationism - at least in the life of my wife! No deep theology, no intense studying of various passages. Why? Because many verses speak for themselves, and this is definitely one of them.


Thanks for sharing this, Brian. She is right.

Some try to say this gathering that takes place after the tribulation is Jesus being seen in the cloud to gather mortals back to Israel, but Jesus will only be seen once coming in the clouds, not twice. This is speaking of the one and only time that Jesus will come in the clouds to gather the harvest, both the living and the dead, and we will meet Him in the air. Amen!!

God bless
In Him
Norma

David Taylor
Apr 1st 2009, 07:03 PM
The Lord's discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has nothing to do with the church

Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 really do have something to do with the church. Christians, who comprise Christ's church, are addressed multiple times throughout those chapters.

Examples of Christians, members of Christ's church, mentioned in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21: (omitting redundant, duplicate verses)



MATTHEW 24's account of Jesus and Christians, members of His church
Mat 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Jesus doesn't want Christians to be deceived.
Mat 24:9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
Only Christians are hated and killed for Jesus' sake.
Mat 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Jesus saves Christians who endure for His sake.
Mat 24:25 "24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
Jesus warns and instruct His followers, Christians from His church, not unbelievers.
Mat 24:31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Jesus' elect are Christians from His church.
Mat 24:42, 44-47 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."
Jesus only instructs Christians to watch, be ready, and only they are blessed of Him and do His work.





Mark 13's account of Jesus and Christians, members of His church
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."
Only Christians are lead and taught by the Holy Spirit.
Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. "
Only Christians are Jesus' elect are His chosen.
Mark 13:27 "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Jesus gathers only Christians from the ends of the Earth to Heaven.





Luke 21's account of Jesus and Christians, members of His church
Luke 21:12 "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist."
Only Christians are persecuted for Christ, only Christians use that persecution as a testimony of Christ, and only Christians are given wisdom directly from Jesus Himself to answer evildoers.
Luke 21:16 "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."
Only Christians are betrayed by family and friends for Jesus' sake. Only Christians are hated and put to death for Jesus' sake. Only Christians are protected for Jesus sake, and only Christians truly possess their souls...because Christ died for them, and bought them with a price.


There is no question from the Scriptures, that Christians, members of Christ's church, are heavily mentioned, presented, and instructed in all three chapters of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

Amen that He will never leave us or forsake us for following His name-sake through any persecution...even death!!!

danield
Apr 3rd 2009, 03:14 AM
This is a very interesting thread and I am so glad to see many people realize that we may very well see some hard times even if we are a Christian in the event the tribulation occurs. I think David Taylor has outlined many scriptures that vividly highlight our exposure as Christians to bear our own crosses in any living conditions. I really wish many pre-trib believers would reconsider their position on the end time’s eschatology.

Raybob
Apr 3rd 2009, 07:37 AM
The Lord's discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 has nothing to do with the church, but with the generation of national Israel living at the time of the end .... this is who the Lord is speaking to regarding the time of the end .... His early followers were all Israelites ....


I believe you have a major problem here. That land was no longer called the nation of Israel after the first temple was torn down. This was the nation called Judaea, NOT Israel, at the time of Christ's first coming.

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
(Mat 2:1)


The "elect" spoken of in these passages and specifically in Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 25:31-46 are the Lord's "brethren" [His kin] .... AMEN!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(Mat 12:50)

Raybob