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Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 01:42 AM
Too much is made of calvinism, arminianism, pelagianism and so many other -isms....so I throw one more out there :)

The twelve points of yukerism is as follows.

1. The born again are chosen before the foundation of the world.
2. The born again cannot sin.
3. The born again will endure to the end.
4. The born again are controlled by the Holy Spirit.
5. The born again can do nothing (even what looks like sin) without Christ.
6. The born again are eternally secure.
7. The born again can never know they are born again until the end.
8. The born again have sin living within their flesh that sins.
9. The born again have all sinned.
10. The born again will never fall away.
11. The born again are not under the abolished law.
12. The born again believe in Christ, but not all who believe in Christ are born again.


Any I missed?

Walstib
Jan 25th 2009, 02:00 AM
Congratulations Yuke! How many of those have not been on the topic of Yukerism? :P

I may not agree with you in full but you did miss indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

watchinginawe
Jan 25th 2009, 02:02 AM
7. The born again can never know they are born again until the end.Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


I John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Congratulations on 1000 posts!


God Bless!

mikebr
Jan 25th 2009, 03:23 AM
Too much is made of calvinism, arminianism, pelagianism and so many other -isms....so I throw one more out there :)

The twelve points of yukerism is as follows.

1. The born again are chosen before the foundation of the world.
2. The born again cannot sin.
3. The born again will endure to the end.
4. The born again are controlled by the Holy Spirit.
5. The born again can do nothing (even what looks like sin) without Christ.
6. The born again are eternally secure.
7. The born again can never know they are born again until the end.
8. The born again have sin living within their flesh that sins.
9. The born again have all sinned.
10. The born again will never fall away.
11. The born again are not under the abolished law.
12. The born again believe in Christ, but not all who believe in Christ are born again.


Any I missed?
Don't these in red contradict each other?:hmm: I'm sure you've got a great explanation and I'm going to need one.:lol:

This has gotta stink. #7 I mean.:(:o:eek::help::cry:

TrustingFollower
Jan 25th 2009, 03:44 AM
Too much is made of calvinism, arminianism, pelagianism and so many other -isms....so I throw one more out there :)

The twelve points of yukerism is as follows.

1. The born again are chosen before the foundation of the world.
2. The born again cannot sin.
3. The born again will endure to the end.
4. The born again are controlled by the Holy Spirit.
5. The born again can do nothing (even what looks like sin) without Christ.
6. The born again are eternally secure.
7. The born again can never know they are born again until the end.
8. The born again have sin living within their flesh that sins.
9. The born again have all sinned.
10. The born again will never fall away.
11. The born again are not under the abolished law.
12. The born again believe in Christ, but not all who believe in Christ are born again.


Any I missed?
Congrats on hitting 1000 posts.

I see you lack faith on your list.

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 02:21 PM
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


I John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


All true. And the only ones who are led by the Spirit of God endure to the end. And the only ones who endure to the end are born again. And the only way we know we were led by the Spirit and born again is by enduring to the end.


Don't these in red contradict each other? I'm sure you've got a great explanation and I'm going to need one.

This has gotta stink. #7 I mean.

All have sinned. All have sin living within their flesh. The born again cannot sin once they are born again for God's seed remains in them.


Congrats on hitting 1000 posts.

I see you lack faith on your list.

I thought it would be a given.

watchinginawe
Jan 25th 2009, 06:35 PM
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


I John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
All true. And the only ones who are led by the Spirit of God endure to the end. And the only ones who endure to the end are born again. And the only way we know we were led by the Spirit and born again is by enduring to the end.:hmm: How does the thought that we are given of the Holy Spirit, that we receive assurance of God Spiritually, and can even come boldly unto the throne of grace reconcile with the thought of total depravity? It seems that you believe in some kind of middle ground between total deparavity and being born again.

God Bless!

Yukerboy
Jan 25th 2009, 11:26 PM
How does the thought that we are given of the Holy Spirit, that we receive assurance of God Spiritually, and can even come boldly unto the throne of grace reconcile with the thought of total depravity? It seems that you believe in some kind of middle ground between total deparavity and being born again.

I don't understand what you mean.

Man is totally depraved and cannot come to God unless God gave that man to Christ.

A lot of people believe they came to God, but did not, for those that did will endure to the end.

The only way of knowing that you have come to God is to endure to the end.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 01:11 AM
Too much is made of calvinism, arminianism, pelagianism and so many other -isms....so I throw one more out there :)

The twelve points of yukerism is as follows.

1. The born again are chosen before the foundation of the world.
2. The born again cannot sin.
3. The born again will endure to the end.
4. The born again are controlled by the Holy Spirit.
5. The born again can do nothing (even what looks like sin) without Christ.
6. The born again are eternally secure.
7. The born again can never know they are born again until the end.
8. The born again have sin living within their flesh that sins.
9. The born again have all sinned.
10. The born again will never fall away.
11. The born again are not under the abolished law.
12. The born again believe in Christ, but not all who believe in Christ are born again.


Any I missed?
You need to rewrite 1 because honestly... that one starts you off screaming ERROR!

1. You are born again before the foundation of the world when you are elected.

And TrustingFollower was right and "given" or not... it ought to cause you and those that believe the same to tremble. You didn't mention faith because you truly believe faith isn't the major issue. Your major issue is election and without election no man can please God.

Honestly... this sort of doctrine is just plain full of holes and Scriptural problems. But hey... you may as well call yourself a Calvinist and I wouldn't be so hard on them. You may be a duck with a few different spots of color... but you're still a duck. ;)

watchinginawe
Jan 26th 2009, 01:20 AM
I don't understand what you mean.

Man is totally depraved and cannot come to God unless God gave that man to Christ.

A lot of people believe they came to God, but did not, for those that did will endure to the end.

The only way of knowing that you have come to God is to endure to the end.I submit that if you believe all of the above, then you don't believe you can know the Truth. It isn't that complicated to make that assumption. :hmm: Another way of stating it is that if the above is true, then we are totally depraved until the end, therefore not being able to know the Truth.

In reality, your statements are made to fit a system and nothing more.

I have heard some suggest (meaning Calvinist's) that certain men are given a measure of light in order to help the Elect or to keep order on Earth, etc. These are essentially deceived as they remain reprobate, but are used of God beyond total depravation since they can understand at some level the things of God.

Anyway, I am still glad and can shout hallelujah that if you are right then there can be no possible consequence to holding a contrary view.

Perhaps you can add that to your "Yukerisms".

God Bless!

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 01:24 AM
I submit that if you believe all of the above, then you don't believe you can know the Truth. It isn't that complicated to make that assumption. :hmm: Another way of stating it is that if the above is true, then we are totally depraved until the end, therefore not being able to know the Truth.

In reality, your statements are made to fit a system and nothing more.

I have heard some suggest (meaning Calvinist's) that certain men are given a measure of light in order to help the Elect or to keep order on Earth, etc. These are essentially deceived as they remain reprobate, but are used of God beyond total depravation since they can understand at some level the things of God.

Anyway, I am still glad and can shout hallelujah that if you are right then there can be no possible consequence to holding a contrary view.

Perhaps you can add that to your "Yukerisms".

God Bless!
If one thinks about it... to say "I cannot know" is so totally void of faith to the point where there is simply no faith at all. Just another of the many holes. It is truly a marvel to me.

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 01:38 AM
You need to rewrite 1 because honestly... that one starts you off screaming ERROR!

1. You are born again before the foundation of the world when you are elected.

And TrustingFollower was right and "given" or not... it ought to cause you and those that believe the same to tremble. You didn't mention faith because you truly believe faith isn't the major issue. Your major issue is election and without election no man can please God.

Honestly... this sort of doctrine is just plain full of holes and Scriptural problems. But hey... you may as well call yourself a Calvinist and I wouldn't be so hard on them. You may be a duck with a few different spots of color... but you're still a duck.

Point 1 stays as is. The born again were chosen before the foundation of the world.

As for faith, faith is given to the born again. It doesn't change one point.


I submit that if you believe all of the above, then you don't believe you can know the Truth. It isn't that complicated to make that assumption. Another way of stating it is that if the above is true, then we are totally depraved until the end, therefore not being able to know the Truth.

In reality, your statements are made to fit a system and nothing more.

I have heard some suggest (meaning Calvinist's) that certain men are given a measure of light in order to help the Elect or to keep order on Earth, etc. These are essentially deceived as they remain reprobate, but are used of God beyond total depravation since they can understand at some level the things of God.

Anyway, I am still glad and can shout hallelujah that if you are right then there can be no possible consequence to holding a contrary view.

Perhaps you can add that to your "Yukerisms".

God Bless!


They either come to God or they don't. They are either totally depraved or saved.

ProjectPeter
Jan 26th 2009, 01:47 AM
Point 1 stays as is. The born again were chosen before the foundation of the world.

As for faith, faith is given to the born again. It doesn't change one point.



They either come to God or they don't. They are either totally depraved or saved.
If one has faith given in the way you present... then Paul strongly misrepresented the gospel to the jailer in Philipi. "What must I do to be saved?" Notice Paul did not say... if God gives you faith then you can be saved or it is only for the elect so it's a crap shoot buddy!

Acts 16:29 *And he called for lights and rushed in and, trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 *and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 *And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."
32 *And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 *And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
34 *And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

watchinginawe
Jan 26th 2009, 01:54 AM
They either come to God or they don't. They are either totally depraved or saved.Yukerboy, I think you are confusing Total Depravity and the state of being lost or in sin. They aren't exactly the same thing.

God Bless!

Slug1
Jan 26th 2009, 02:03 AM
The only way of knowing that you have come to God is to endure to the end.In my experiences and what I have witnessed... seeing a person heal another person as the Holy Spirit manifests through them, I bet is a good indicator that they have come to God. Also, hearing God speak through a prophet is a good indicator that such a person has come to God. I can go on as I have witnessed all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit except one.

And they are enduring now and it's not their end yet :)

TrustingFollower
Jan 26th 2009, 02:58 AM
If one has faith given in the way you present... then Paul strongly misrepresented the gospel to the jailer in Philipi. "What must I do to be saved?" Notice Paul did not say... if God gives you faith then you can be saved or it is only for the elect so it's a crap shoot buddy!

Acts 16:29 *And he called for lights and rushed in and, trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 *and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 *And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."
32 *And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 *And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
34 *And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.
Peter must not have understood the way to salvation either.

Acts 2:37-41 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" (38) And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (39) For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." (40) And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." (41) So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 26th 2009, 03:04 AM
Yuke,
,
Congrats on your 1000 post!

I have a question for you.. you state that 'no one' can 'know' they are 'born again' until the end.. leaving it up to the person to 'persevere'... to the end... if you don't know you are born again.. what are you persevering for? and when you state that.. to me it sounds like your making your Salvation.. based on your 'works'.. your ability to 'persevere' ,..... what do you do as a Christian who does not 'know ' they are born again.. yet persevere for some reason... what do you consider persevering....

and this final thought...

what if you were 'paralyzed' in bed... before you were 'persevering' according to your theology... then all of a sudden it happens... not able to speak or move any extremities... you werent able to read your Bible.. you weren't able to pray.. you werent able to do the good God has willed thru you because of your physical limitations... now how are you persevering? thru your actions? Would God still love you? Would He abandon you? because of your inablility to persevere? as far as praying and doing the good God has called you to do?

I agree we are to persevere... there is no doubt about that... but our Salvation is 'based' on what He has accomplished... on that Bloody Tree.. Persevere .. Yes... You making it to the end is not 'based on your persevering alone'... When Jesus Saves you.. He does not play 'hide' and 'seek' with you... He is 'for you'.. He is beside you the whole way.. From the Beginning to the end...... When you 'abide in Him'....

If one does not know one is born again.. then how does one 'know they are a Christian and why does one perservere? and for what?

You perservere because you 'know' you have been saved by Him.. Born Again... if one does not 'know' then one puts trust and confidence in ones own works or ablitlity to persevere... this my friend is 'works'...

For Grace ye are Saved.. this not of your seves... but it is a Gift..

even the 'redemption of your body' Yuke.. in the end will be
His Gift.. and it will be by Grace thru Faith that you make it there.. thru persevering in Him.. not on your own works..

The Only True God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.. Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh.. When He saves a person.. He does not play hide and seek with the soul.. His Spirit will bear witness with your spirit...

I used to as a young Christian.. come under that trap of believing that today I lost my salvation.. got it back on Tuesday.. only to loose it again on Thursday.. and then get it back right away Friday... for a short time I was caught up in that.. because of teaching.. one cannot really 'know' one is Saved... always going round and round about in a cycle of condemnation.. until Jesus the Christ gave me the wisdom and understanding to see that this was the 'trap' of the 'enemy'... there is 'no condemnation'... He took me up into His lap and said. with so much Confidence and Compassion......

My child,
I loved you before you knew Me.. I knew you before you born and when you were in your mothers womb... I loved you when you were lost and in so much darkness... You are Mine.. I have saved you... and you Belong to Me.. nobody can take you away or snatch you away.. You 'know' Me now and I 'know' you..... nobody can separate us..and nothing can separate us... and I mean 'nothing'....

Yukerboy
Jan 26th 2009, 10:25 PM
I have a question for you.. you state that 'no one' can 'know' they are 'born again' until the end.. leaving it up to the person to 'persevere'... to the end... if you don't know you are born again.. what are you persevering for? and when you state that.. to me it sounds like your making your Salvation.. based on your 'works'.. your ability to 'persevere' ,..... what do you do as a Christian who does not 'know ' they are born again.. yet persevere for some reason... what do you consider persevering....

No, I do not leave it up to the person. Man has no free will.

God makes all the born again persevere to the end. If one doesn't persevere, he was not born again.

All who are born again believe they are born again. Then, there are some who are not born again that believe they are.

The only way to truly know is to persevere to the end.

Persevering to the end is believing in Christ, having faith, and overcoming the world.


what if you were 'paralyzed' in bed... before you were 'persevering' according to your theology... then all of a sudden it happens... not able to speak or move any extremities... you werent able to read your Bible.. you weren't able to pray.. you werent able to do the good God has willed thru you because of your physical limitations... now how are you persevering? thru your actions? Would God still love you? Would He abandon you? because of your inablility to persevere? as far as praying and doing the good God has called you to do?

Persevering to the end is not works. Persevering to the end is to believe and not fall away from that belief. All who believe to the end have persevered. Those who believed for a while, then fell away (seed on the rocky soil) were not born again, yet most certainly believed they were.


I agree we are to persevere... there is no doubt about that... but our Salvation is 'based' on what He has accomplished... on that Bloody Tree.. Persevere .. Yes... You making it to the end is not 'based on your persevering alone'... When Jesus Saves you.. He does not play 'hide' and 'seek' with you... He is 'for you'.. He is beside you the whole way.. From the Beginning to the end...... When you 'abide in Him'....

I agree with that. The ones who persevere to the end do it because God MAKES them stand firm in Christ.


If one does not know one is born again.. then how does one 'know they are a Christian and why does one perservere? and for what?

You perservere because you 'know' you have been saved by Him.. Born Again... if one does not 'know' then one puts trust and confidence in ones own works or ablitlity to persevere... this my friend is 'works'...

For Grace ye are Saved.. this not of your seves... but it is a Gift..

even the 'redemption of your body' Yuke.. in the end will be
His Gift.. and it will be by Grace thru Faith that you make it there.. thru persevering in Him.. not on your own works..

You confuse believing with knowing. Even I believe I am born again. However, the only way I will know is by enduring to the end.


The Only True God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.. Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh.. When He saves a person.. He does not play hide and seek with the soul.. His Spirit will bear witness with your spirit...

I used to as a young Christian.. come under that trap of believing that today I lost my salvation.. got it back on Tuesday.. only to loose it again on Thursday.. and then get it back right away Friday... for a short time I was caught up in that.. because of teaching.. one cannot really 'know' one is Saved... always going round and round about in a cycle of condemnation.. until Jesus the Christ gave me the wisdom and understanding to see that this was the 'trap' of the 'enemy'... there is 'no condemnation'... He took me up into His lap and said. with so much Confidence and Compassion......

My child,
I loved you before you knew Me.. I knew you before you born and when you were in your mothers womb... I loved you when you were lost and in so much darkness... You are Mine.. I have saved you... and you Belong to Me.. nobody can take you away or snatch you away.. You 'know' Me now and I 'know' you..... nobody can separate us..and nothing can separate us... and I mean 'nothing'....


Kinda right, but if you do not endure to the end, you will be condemned and never were born again. You beleive you are and I don't mean to shake you from that belief. However belief and knowledge are seperate. If you do not endure to the end, then Christ never knew you.