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mikebr
Jan 25th 2009, 12:53 PM
Every religion has the following:

A holy man leader
A holy building
A holy book/set of rules
Holy days

At one time I would have said that they all got them because God initiated them and some point in time and they were simply passed down by Adam and Eve or Noah, etc..

The problem is that I don't see God wanting these things in scripture so where did these ideas come from.

Walstib
Jan 25th 2009, 02:23 PM
Mike,

We are not told everything. On point, Mechelzedek was a holy man with no specific instructions written for him to start his ministry.

But past that concept..

How many things that God does not want are going on in the world?

Knowing the answer is virtually innumerable, and the enemy is always at work, I don't have any issues with the conclusion you had made. Only to add the Devil has influence as well for getting man to "start" things.

The biggest thing though, if a religion is based around worshiping a wooden pole or something crazy like this it is not Holy. Right?

Peace,
Joe

Vhayes
Jan 25th 2009, 04:02 PM
The Tower of Babel comes to mind - man decided he would "do" something to reach God. We know that didn't work out so well.

One of the things to always keep in mind; Religion is man trying to reach the heights of God, Christianity is God reaching down and lifting up man.

V

mikebr
Jan 25th 2009, 04:14 PM
Mike,

We are not told everything. On point, Mechelzedek was a holy man with no specific instructions written for him to start his ministry.

But past that concept..

How many things that God does not want are going on in the world?

Knowing the answer is virtually innumerable, and the enemy is always at work, I don't have any issues with the conclusion you had made. Only to add the Devil has influence as well for getting man to "start" things.

The biggest thing though, if a religion is based around worshiping a wooden pole or something crazy like this it is not Holy. Right?

Peace,
Joe


To them it would be Joe. Is a building that we worship in any more holy than a wooden pole?

mikebr
Jan 25th 2009, 04:16 PM
The Tower of Babel comes to mind - man decided he would "do" something to reach God. We know that didn't work out so well.

One of the things to always keep in mind; Religion is man trying to reach the heights of God, Christianity is God reaching down and lifting up man.

V

I agree totally but many Christians are still trying to reach God.

TrustingFollower
Jan 25th 2009, 05:27 PM
To them it would be Joe. Is a building that we worship in any more holy than a wooden pole?
Acts 7:48 Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says,

No, God does not dwell in building, but rather in the heart of believers.

TrustingFollower
Jan 25th 2009, 05:33 PM
Every religion has the following:

A holy man leader
A holy building
A holy book/set of rules
Holy days

At one time I would have said that they all got them because God initiated them and some point in time and they were simply passed down by Adam and Eve or Noah, etc..

The problem is that I don't see God wanting these things in scripture so where did these ideas come from.
All the man made denominations are the exact opposite of what the church is call to be. Denominations are divisions in the body of Christ and will one day all be wiped out when Jesus returns for his bride. Every Christian should be striving to bring about the unity scripture calls for.

Ephesians 4:13-16 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (14) so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (15) Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, (16) from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 12:00 AM
All the man made denominations are the exact opposite of what the church is call to be. Denominations are divisions in the body of Christ and will one day all be wiped out when Jesus returns for his bride. Every Christian should be striving to bring about the unity scripture calls for.

Ephesians 4:13-16 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (14) so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (15) Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, (16) from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

I totally agree. Do you think that it's speaking of unity in a particular church or in the Body universal? Can we have unity as long as we disagree on things like OSAS/NoOSAS?

MacGyver
Jan 26th 2009, 01:01 AM
Every religion has the following:

A holy man leader
A holy building
A holy book/set of rules
Holy days
..........

The problem is that I don't see God wanting these things in scripture so where did these ideas come from.I see God wanting those things under different circumstances and dispensations, such as

A holy man leader- Moses
A holy building-the Temple
A holy book/set of rules- Bible, 10 commandments
Holy days- Sabbath, Lord's Day

Those "ideas" were not passed down but understood through revelation from God, such as visions, God speaking verbally, angels, etc.

Other religions have similar things, and some of it has a level of correctness to it. John Henry Newman in response to a skeptic who said "These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian:"


We, on the contrary, prefer to say, "these things are in Christianity, therefore they are not heathen." That is, we prefer to say, and we think that Scripture bears us out in saying, that from the beginning the Moral Governor of the world has scattered the seeds of truth far and wide over its extent; that these have variously taken root, and grown up as in the wilderness, wild plants indeed but living; and hence that, as the inferior animals have tokens of an immaterial principle in them, yet have not souls, so the philosophies and religions of men have their life in certain true ideas, though they are not directly divine.

TrustingFollower
Jan 26th 2009, 02:39 AM
I totally agree. Do you think that it's speaking of unity in a particular church or in the Body universal?
If you are talking about a particular denomination, no. Unity that is spoken of is the true body of believers only. Just read the NT and you see that there is no denominations ever mentioned like we have today. It will only be the bride of Christ.


Can we have unity as long as we disagree on things like OSAS/NoOSAS?
Truth be told, the only way unity will ever happen is through the power of the Holy Spirit raising up new apostles and prophets. As far as doctrine goes, just leave that to the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit starts to bring the true bride together it will be with the true correct doctrine. Our job is to humble ourselves and submit to God and prayerfully listen to the commands given to us. If we listen to and obey the commands given today, then tomorrow we will get further commands .

mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 12:36 PM
I see God wanting those things under different circumstances and dispensations, such as

A holy man leader- Moses
A holy building-the Temple
A holy book/set of rules- Bible, 10 commandments
Holy days- Sabbath, Lord's Day

Those "ideas" were not passed down but understood through revelation from God, such as visions, God speaking verbally, angels, etc.

Other religions have similar things, and some of it has a level of correctness to it. John Henry Newman in response to a skeptic who said "These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian:"

I think that a careful study of scripture will show that God never wanted those things. For instance, He wanted a body of flesh to dwell in not a building of bricks and mortar, or curtains as the case of the temple may be. The people demanded a law, they demanded kings and judges. As for the 10 commandments God's desire has always been to write His laws on our hearts.

MacGyver
Jan 26th 2009, 09:07 PM
I think that a careful study of scripture will show that God never wanted those things. For instance, He wanted a body of flesh to dwell in not a building of bricks and mortar, or curtains as the case of the temple may be. The people demanded a law, they demanded kings and judges. As for the 10 commandments God's desire has always been to write His laws on our hearts.I disagree, a careful study will show that God dealt with man in different ways and in different times through covenants, and those things were done at God's command to be prefigurements and to prepare the hearts of His people for Christ, and the ultimate fulfillment is the Church.

mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 09:14 PM
I disagree, a careful study will show that God dealt with man in different ways and in different times through covenants, and those things were done at God's command to be prefigurements and to prepare the hearts of His people for Christ, and the ultimate fulfillment is the Church.


I see your point. Makes sense to me.

mizzdy
Jan 26th 2009, 09:47 PM
Truth be told, the only way unity will ever happen is through the power of the Holy Spirit raising up new apostles and prophets. As far as doctrine goes, just leave that to the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit starts to bring the true bride together it will be with the true correct doctrine. Our job is to humble ourselves and submit to God and prayerfully listen to the commands given to us. If we listen to and obey the commands given today, then tomorrow we will get further commands .


I hear this all the time and I do believe it to be true that the Spirit will lead the believers to the one truth if we listen. What I ask those who say this is, if you are led to a church that worships on the sabbath, how would one react? or a church that teaches a doctrine that goes against one that has been held all of their christian walk, would one be compelled to turn away or follow where one is led? And what other commands would be given if not from God or Christ? I would be very suspect if someone claiming to be a prophet or from God came to me with any new commands or revelations.

threebigrocks
Jan 26th 2009, 09:52 PM
I hear this all the time and I do believe it to be true that the Spirit will lead the believers to the one truth if we listen. What I ask those who say this is, if you are led to a church that worships on the sabbath, how would one react? or a church that teaches a doctrine that goes against one that has been held all of their christian walk, would one be compelled to turn away or follow where one is led? And what other commands would be given if not from God or Christ? I would be very suspect if someone claiming to be a prophet or from God came to me with any new commands or revelations.

Don't need to hesitate, so long as what you are led to or told measures up with scripture. Simply put - know your scripture. At one time, all of scripture was new to us, and we've all had to read and study and read and study some more. Problem is when we hear something new and make quick judgment. Sometimes we are wrong because it's out of the ordinary. Those moments where I don't rush have been some of the greatest moments of revelation because it sent me into scripture. Proven or disproven, those are good things that come from holding all things up to scripture.

Walstib
Jan 26th 2009, 10:10 PM
To them it would be Joe.

Of couse it is to them, but will it save them?

Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." (Act 17:22-31 NKJV)

Is a building that we worship in any more holy than a wooden pole?

I don't know about other's but I certainly do not worship any building, never even had the desire to that I can think of.

And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev 15:2-4 NKJV)

Peace,
Joe