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mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 05:57 PM
“God no longer holds you responsible for the smallest sin. Every single sin is forgiven. When faith is said to be credited for righteousness, it is because of what your faith receives: when you believe, Christ’s righteousness is credited to your account, and your sins are credited to his account. If both of these things do not happen, you cannot consider yourself forgiven. Sin would be charged to your account. In the gospel, two things happen: first, God removes the charge of sin against your account. Second, God gives you the gift of righteousness from Christ. You receive this double gift when you receive Christ’s redemption through the shedding of his blood.” Walter Marshall, sermon, “The Doctrine of Justification Explained and Applied”

This about sums it up!

Firstfruits
Jan 26th 2009, 08:40 PM
Walter Marshall, sermon, “The Doctrine of Justification Explained and Applied”

This about sums it up!

So it does not matter how we live, meaning we have no need for the spirit, by which, if we are led of the spirit we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh in the first place.

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

There is no need to endure since you cannot fall or be accused of sin.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jan 26th 2009, 08:49 PM
Walter Marshall, sermon, “The Doctrine of Justification Explained and Applied”

This about sums it up!

Can you show me where Scripture teaches this accounting?

mikebr
Jan 26th 2009, 09:22 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I guess you'll have to ask ol' Walt those questions.

These two must be disproven. Can you do that?

First, God removes the charge of sin against your account.
Second, God gives you the gift of righteousness from Christ.

I think both can be proven biblically.

I am dripping with that greasy grace.

threebigrocks
Jan 26th 2009, 09:39 PM
I am dripping with that greasy grace.

Three things.

Whooo hooo! No sin is held against me, so let's eat and drink for tomorrow we die! :rolleyes:

Why the pride in the greasy grace?

Why can't you show scriptural support for something you believe in? That wouldn't make it yours, but 'ol Walts, eh?

BrckBrln
Jan 26th 2009, 09:56 PM
What is 'greasy grace'?

MacGyver
Jan 26th 2009, 10:15 PM
Sin has to be dealt with throughout our lives. Baptism, which gets its power from the blood of Christ, takes care of our original sin that we inherited from Adam plus those sins we have committed before Baptism, those are completely washed away for good. But Baptism does not take care of our sins afterwards. St. John tells us how to deal with those sins, "1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

The idea that we can live like hell and still go to Heaven as if we have some kind of diplomatic immunity is just not Biblical.

threebigrocks
Jan 26th 2009, 10:19 PM
What is 'greasy grace'?

No matter what we do, what we say, what we think, no matter what - grace covers us.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 12:07 AM
Sin has to be dealt with throughout our lives. Baptism, which gets its power from the blood of Christ, takes care of our original sin that we inherited from Adam plus those sins we have committed before Baptism, those are completely washed away for good. But Baptism does not take care of our sins afterwards. St. John tells us how to deal with those sins, "1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

The idea that we can live like hell and still go to Heaven as if we have some kind of diplomatic immunity is just not Biblical.

Hey McGyver, you've coined a new term, Biblical immunity. LOL!

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 12:10 AM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I guess you'll have to ask ol' Walt those questions.

These two must be disproven. Can you do that?

First, God removes the charge of sin against your account.
Second, God gives you the gift of righteousness from Christ.

I think both can be proven biblically.

I am dripping with that greasy grace.

First, I don't disagree that God removes our sins, not the charge of sin against us, but the actual sins.

The second one is easy to disprove, their is no Scripture to support this claim.

threebigrocks
Jan 27th 2009, 12:45 AM
First, I don't disagree that God removes our sins, not the charge of sin against us, but the actual sins.

The second one is easy to disprove, their is no Scripture to support this claim.


Romans 5
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.



1 Corinthians 1
30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Philippians 3
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 01:25 AM
21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 01:26 AM
30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 01:28 AM
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. (Rom 5:17)

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 01:34 AM
Romans 5
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.



1 Corinthians 1
30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Philippians 3
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,



Sorry TBR, that's what I get for skipping posts.

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 01:36 AM
According to Romans 1 God's wrath is revealed as the consequences of our sin. There is a price to pay for sin. If I cheat on my wife there are consequences. If I eat drink and be merry I'll probably get fat drunk and die.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 01:42 AM
Romans 5
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.



1 Corinthians 1
30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Philippians 3
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,


Where does this say that Christ's righteousenss is reckoned to our account?

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 01:50 AM
30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

You might want to look at a version that is a little more accurate. Christ was made to us righteousness, however, Scripture does not say that His righteousness is credited to us. He became righteousness to us by fulfilling the law, by living without sin, and doing the Father's will. Through this we are able to be counted righteous before God.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 01:53 AM
According to Romans 1 God's wrath is revealed as the consequences of our sin. There is a price to pay for sin. If I cheat on my wife there are consequences. If I eat drink and be merry I'll probably get fat drunk and die.

I never said there was not consequences for sin.

threebigrocks
Jan 27th 2009, 01:56 AM
Where does this say that Christ's righteousenss is reckoned to our account?

Philippians 3 makes it the clearest here - righteousness through faith. It's not our own, but Christ's righteousness which was given because we have faith and are faithful. The Law couldn't do so, but under grace it sure can.

Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through faith. Study it a bit, and see what you come up with. Romans speaks a lot of righteousness being credited to those of faith.

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 02:35 AM
Philippians 3 makes it the clearest here - righteousness through faith. It's not our own, but Christ's righteousness which was given because we have faith and are faithful. The Law couldn't do so, but under grace it sure can.

Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through faith. Study it a bit, and see what you come up with. Romans speaks a lot of righteousness being credited to those of faith.

I've studied it plenty, because I came out of a system of belief that taught it. You will not find Scripture that says Christ's righteousness is credited to anyone. Why was Abraham's faith counted to him as righteousness and not Christ's?

Romans 4:2-8 ( YLT ) 2for if Abraham by works was declared righteous, he hath to boast—but not before god; 3for what doth the writing say? ‘And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him—to righteousness;’ 4and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt; 5and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned—to righteousness: 6even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works: 7‘Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered; 8happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.’

Abraham was declared righteous, do to his faith.



Romans 4:19-25 ( YLT ) 19and not having been weak in the faith, he did not consider his own body, already become dead, (being about a hundred years old,) and the deadness of Sarah’s womb, 20and at the promise of God did not stagger in unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, having given glory to God, 21and having been fully persuaded that what He hath promised He is able also to do: 22wherefore also it was reckoned to him to righteousness.



23And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him, 24but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned—to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead, 25who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.




Notice what Paul says, Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness, again he says nothing about Christ's righteousness being counted to Abraham.



Matthew 5:19-20 ( KJV ) 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.




Jesus didn't say unless you have my righteousness.

threebigrocks
Jan 27th 2009, 03:23 AM
So is it the system of belief you are against or the doctrine?

To exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees is not difficult. We rely on grace, not on law and on Christ, not of ourselves. That righteousness is because we are in Christ and under grace.

The key is that it's righteousness by faith. Not stand alone righteousness. Faith first, being in Christ. He is our covering, in grace through that faith. Faith is hope in a promise as was given to Abraham and his seed - Christ. Those who have faith are those who are children of Abraham because of grace.

Faith isn't something you can pour in a glass, hold in your hand or carry in your pocket. It's not tangible, physical evidence. Eventually we will have our own righteousness when our salvation is complete. But unless we have Christ as our covering in righteousness - it's all for naught. We are lost, just a filthy sinner.

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2009, 10:43 AM
21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

How then shall we live if not without sin?

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If you do not have to worry about future sins then these scriptures are pointless.

We cannot live on the fence.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2009, 10:51 AM
According to Romans 1 God's wrath is revealed as the consequences of our sin. There is a price to pay for sin. If I cheat on my wife there are consequences. If I eat drink and be merry I'll probably get fat drunk and die.

Would you have to repent if you did sin or would that not be required if future sins are forgiven?

Firstfruits

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 12:17 PM
Would you have to repent if you did sin or would that not be required if future sins are forgiven?

Firstfruits

I love my children unconditionally. There is nothing that they could do to separate themselves from that love. However they might do some things that they were so ashamed of that they refused to come around. It would have absolutely nothing to do with my forgiveness or the fact that I still loved them unconditionally.

I realize that we have been conditioned to believe that our sin keeps us separated from God. It is simply not biblical.

Adam and Eve hid because they were ashamed, God went looking for them.

The woman at the well was there alone because she was ashamed; Jesus went out of His way to fellowship with her.

The man posessed with Legion, the woman caught in adultry, the entire book of Ezekiel.

Sin doesn't separate us from God, shame does.................and that is our problem not His.

We don't have a sin problem, we have a Son problem.

I am convinced that nothing can separate me from the Love of God. Do you want to convince me otherwise.:hmm:

Repentance is a change of mind that leads to a change in behavior. A change in behavior without a change of mind is Conforming. I have been transformed by the renewing of my mind. The Kindness of God has led me to repentance; this change of mind.

I know that you folks think I must be someone who drinks,smokes, beats my wife and children, cusses everyother breath, hates my neighbor, lusts after women, watches porn and hates sunday school.

You simply don't know me. I don't encourage sin. I highly discourage it. But it will not cause God to love me less. That is a God made in our own image. His ways are not ours. Read that scripture in context. You might discover something.

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2009, 03:00 PM
I love my children unconditionally. There is nothing that they could do to separate themselves from that love. However they might do some things that they were so ashamed of that they refused to come around. It would have absolutely nothing to do with my forgiveness or the fact that I still loved them unconditionally.

I realize that we have been conditioned to believe that our sin keeps us separated from God. It is simply not biblical.

Adam and Eve hid because they were ashamed, God went looking for them.

The woman at the well was there alone because she was ashamed; Jesus went out of His way to fellowship with her.

The man posessed with Legion, the woman caught in adultry, the entire book of Ezekiel.

Sin doesn't separate us from God, shame does.................and that is our problem not His.

We don't have a sin problem, we have a Son problem.

I am convinced that nothing can separate me from the Love of God. Do you want to convince me otherwise.:hmm:

Repentance is a change of mind that leads to a change in behavior. A change in behavior without a change of mind is Conforming. I have been transformed by the renewing of my mind. The Kindness of God has led me to repentance; this change of mind.

I know that you folks think I must be someone who drinks,smokes, beats my wife and children, cusses everyother breath, hates my neighbor, lusts after women, watches porn and hates sunday school.

You simply don't know me. I don't encourage sin. I highly discourage it. But it will not cause God to love me less. That is a God made in our own image. His ways are not ours. Read that scripture in context. You might discover something.

When we sin it means that we are not walking in the spirit, so if we are not walking in the spirit when we sin then can we say we are spiritual?

Gal 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

We cannot be both spirit and flesh.

Rom 8:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 03:22 PM
I realize that we have been conditioned to believe that our sin keeps us separated from God. It is simply not biblical.


Sin doesn't separate us from God, shame does.................and that is our problem not His.


Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.
17 "Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they shall be consumed, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, `Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?´
18 "But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods.

Hebrews 12:14 ¶Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

Ezekiel 23:14 "So she increased her harlotries. And she saw men portrayed on the wall, images of the Chaldeans portrayed with vermilion,
15 girded with belts on their loins, with flowing turbans on their heads, all of them looking like officers, like the Babylonians in Chaldea, the land of their birth.
16 "And when she saw them she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea.
17 "And the Babylonians came to her to the bed of love, and they defiled her with their harlotry. And when she had been defiled by them, she became disgusted with them.
18 "And she uncovered her harlotries and uncovered her nakedness; then I became disgusted with her, as I had become disgusted with her sister.

Psalms 78:53 And He led them safely, so that they did not fear; But the sea engulfed their enemies.
54 ¶So He brought them to His holy land, To this hill country which His right hand had gained.
55 He also drove out the nations before them, And He apportioned them for an inheritance by measurement, And made the tribes of Israel dwell in their tents.
56 Yet they tempted and rebelled against the Most High God, And did not keep His testimonies,
57 But turned back and acted treacherously like their fathers; They turned aside like a treacherous bow.
58 For they provoked Him with their high places, And aroused His jealousy with their graven images.
59 When God heard, He was filled with wrath, And greatly abhorred Israel;

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not so short That it cannot save; Neither is His ear so dull That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He does not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken falsehood, Your tongue mutters wickedness.
4 No one sues righteously and no one pleads honestly. They trust in confusion, and speak lies; They conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch adders' eggs and weave the spider's web; He who eats of their eggs dies, And from that which is crushed a snake breaks forth.
6 Their webs will not become clothing, Nor will they cover themselves with their works; Their works are works of iniquity, And an act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, And they hasten to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; Devastation and destruction are in their highways.
8 They do not know the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks; They have made their paths crooked; Whoever treads on them does not know peace.

And there are many more Mike. It certainly is Scriptural.

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 05:52 PM
you see black i see white

ProjectPeter
Jan 27th 2009, 06:06 PM
you see black i see white
And notice again that you don't bother discussing any of those passages... you just offer a comment that ultimately means nothing.

Brother Mark
Jan 27th 2009, 06:10 PM
Where does this say that Christ's righteousenss is reckoned to our account?

2 Cor 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASB

Either we have God's righteousness or none at all. ;)

Brother Mark
Jan 27th 2009, 06:13 PM
Sin... But it will not cause God to love me less.

In this you are correct. Jesus did not love the rich young ruler and less when he walked away. He loved him in his sin. But he still let him walk away and continue in his sin. God's love will not keep us from hell just like it did not keep the rich young ruler from hell.

Love has it's place. So does proper fear. Without both, one is going to be unbalanced in theology.

VerticalReality
Jan 27th 2009, 06:22 PM
You might want to look at a version that is a little more accurate. Christ was made to us righteousness, however, Scripture does not say that His righteousness is credited to us. He became righteousness to us by fulfilling the law, by living without sin, and doing the Father's will. Through this we are able to be counted righteous before God.

What is our faith in the works of the Lord Jesus Christ for?

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 06:33 PM
In this you are correct. Jesus did not love the rich young ruler and less when he walked away. He loved him in his sin. But he still let him walk away and continue in his sin. God's love will not keep us from hell just like it did not keep the rich young ruler from hell.

Love has it's place. So does proper fear. Without both, one is going to be unbalanced in theology.


You'll have to get in line. You are not the first to call me unbalanced.:pp:rofl::lol:


I preached a sermon one time on unbalanced Grace.

Brother Mark
Jan 27th 2009, 07:14 PM
You'll have to get in line. You are not the first to call me unbalanced.:pp:rofl::lol:


I preached a sermon one time on unbalanced Grace.

LOL! I love grace. I love mercy. But I also love fear. All three have their place and that is why God spends so much time in the word speaking on fear and encouraging us to fear Him.

But again, as PP said, you didn't address the point. Jesus loved the rich young ruler and let him walk away into sin. He didn't love him any less because he didn't do what was right. Neither did he stop him from sinning.

We don't earn God's love in any way. It simply can't be done. Doesn't change verses like "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God". Those verses are still there and still bear fruit. Do you think God put them in there so we should ignore them?

VerticalReality
Jan 27th 2009, 07:19 PM
LOL! I love grace. I love mercy. But I also love fear. All three have their place and that is why God spends so much time in the word speaking on fear and encouraging us to fear Him.

But again, as PP said, you didn't address the point. Jesus loved the rich young ruler and let him walk away into sin. He didn't love him any less because he didn't do what was right. Neither did he stop him from sinning.

We don't earn God's love in any way. It simply can't be done. Doesn't change verses like "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God". Those verses are still there and still bear fruit. Do you think God put them in there so we should ignore them?

It is indeed a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God. However, I like to stress as well that it is a painful thing to fall into the hands of a living God. And I'm not talking about just painful like in "after we die" painful. I'm talking about right now it is a painful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. All the more reason to fear, IMO.

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 08:00 PM
LOL! I love grace. I love mercy. But I also love fear. All three have their place and that is why God spends so much time in the word speaking on fear and encouraging us to fear Him.

But again, as PP said, you didn't address the point. Jesus loved the rich young ruler and let him walk away into sin. He didn't love him any less because he didn't do what was right. Neither did he stop him from sinning.

We don't earn God's love in any way. It simply can't be done. Doesn't change verses like "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God". Those verses are still there and still bear fruit. Do you think God put them in there so we should ignore them?


Someone said, I don't remember who, that "if you can't love God you do well to fear Him."I believe that the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom but Paul said when he became a man he put away childish things. Now before you say I am taking that out of context, isn't in the context of LOVE?

When my children were young they needed to fear me because they couldn''t understand that EVERYTHING I did was because I loved them.

Perfect love casts out fear. or does it?

Firstfruits
Jan 27th 2009, 08:03 PM
2 Cor 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASB

Either we have God's righteousness or none at all. ;)

It depends on our faith.

Rom 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Mt 21:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
Jan 27th 2009, 08:06 PM
Walter Marshall, sermon, “The Doctrine of Justification Explained and Applied”

This about sums it up!

:hmm:

God's righteousness and human righteousness

...There is also human righteousness, a righteousness according to external laws, but a righteousness of little significance, not having perfection and plenitude and based on human considerations. But I ask for Thy righteousness, which descends from Thee and which leads up to heaven; I ask also for help in order to obtain this righteousness.

Hierarch John Chrysostom

Righteousness among men is imputed for a little while to those who judge righteously, while God's righteousness gives eternal justification.

Hierarch Theophanes the Recluse

Blessed is he who is righteous with God's righteousness; his trust is concentrated in Christ, the source of his righteousness. Unfortunate is he who is satisfied with his own human righteousness: he does not need Christ, Who proclaimed about Himself: "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matthew 9:13).

Hierarch Ignatius Brianchaninov

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 08:12 PM
There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.

What in the world are you going to do with this verse?:hmm:

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 08:16 PM
:hmm:

God's righteousness and human righteousness

...There is also human righteousness, a righteousness according to external laws, but a righteousness of little significance, not having perfection and plenitude and based on human considerations. But I ask for Thy righteousness, which descends from Thee and which leads up to heaven; I ask also for help in order to obtain this righteousness.

Hierarch John Chrysostom

Righteousness among men is imputed for a little while to those who judge righteously, while God's righteousness gives eternal justification.

Hierarch Theophanes the Recluse

Blessed is he who is righteous with God's righteousness; his trust is concentrated in Christ, the source of his righteousness. Unfortunate is he who is satisfied with his own human righteousness: he does not need Christ, Who proclaimed about Himself: "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matthew 9:13).

Hierarch Ignatius Brianchaninov

Teke

I think the thing is, is that I don't see righteousness as a character trait. Its not how I act. It is a position that I am in. In Christ I am righteous. Now if I am not in Him then positionally I'm not righteous and I must act in a way that seems righteous. I have a righteousness that does not come by the law.

Teke
Jan 27th 2009, 08:32 PM
Teke

I think the thing is, is that I don't see righteousness as a character trait. Its not how I act. It is a position that I am in. In Christ I am righteous. Now if I am not in Him then positionally I'm not righteous and I must act in a way that seems righteous. I have a righteousness that does not come by the law.

Mike,

Why do you need to explain your "position" in Christ? Doesn't that fall into the category of self explanatory righteousness?

Butch5
Jan 27th 2009, 10:11 PM
2 Cor 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASB

Either we have God's righteousness or none at all. ;)

Well, that was not one of the verses I was referring to, however, since you bring it up, what does that mean, we might become the righteousness of God?

mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 11:19 PM
Mike,

Why do you need to explain your "position" in Christ? Doesn't that fall into the category of self explanatory righteousness?


I see your point.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 03:09 AM
Someone said, I don't remember who, that "if you can't love God you do well to fear Him."I believe that the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom but Paul said when he became a man he put away childish things. Now before you say I am taking that out of context, isn't in the context of LOVE?

When my children were young they needed to fear me because they couldn''t understand that EVERYTHING I did was because I loved them.

Perfect love casts out fear. or does it?

Have you ever looked at how Paul feared the Lord? Paul went to Corinth in fear and trembling. Perfect love does cast out fear. But that is not the same kind of fear that Jesus preached to Peter and his disciples. Perfect love cast out Phobos (exceedingly, fear, terror). But when Jesus said to fear God he said to Phobeo (to be alarmed, to be in awe of, afraid) him who is able to destroy both body and soul. It is not terror but it is fear. I was not terrofied of my daddy because he loved me. But I did fear him.

So you going to ignore ALL the verses on how great men of God continued to fear him? Are you further along than Paul, who did fear God? Or Abraham who because of his fear of God offered up Isaac as a sacrifice? There are many scriptures on fear Mike along with love. It's not just about maturity. One who fears God has maturity and God shows him his secrets. We are not terrorized by God as though he will punish us but we do fear him. One is proper and the other is not.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 03:11 AM
Well, that was not one of the verses I was referring to, however, since you bring it up, what does that mean, we might become the righteousness of God?

It means I am God's righteousness. He became my sin. I became his righteousness. I am as righteous as He is because it is His righteousness that I have. If I don't have His righteousness, I will go to hell. That's what he was saying when he said unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the pharisees, you will parish.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 03:17 AM
It means I am God's righteousness. He became my sin. I became his righteousness. I am as righteous as He is because it is His righteousness that I have. If I don't have His righteousness, I will go to hell. That's what he was saying when he said unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the pharisees, you will parish.

Grace and peace,

Mark

He became your sin? Do you really think that is what that verse means?

You became His righteousness? Why do you suppose Abraham didn't?

You are as righteous as He is????

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 03:23 AM
You became His righteousness?

That's what is says. When I get to heaven, it won't be because of my own righteousness as Isaiah tells us that they are like filthy rags. But His righteousness, that will be enough to get me in. He took on my robe of flesh and sin and he gave me his robe of righteousness.


Why do you suppose Abraham didn't?

I suppose he did. God granted Abraham righteousness.


You are as righteous as He is????

Yessir. Otherwise, I would be in big, big trouble. But again, it's not my righteousness. It's his. Here's the verse again.

2 Cor 5:20-21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASB

I have no righteousness outside of Christ Jesus. As the old 7up commercials use to say "Never had it, never will". The only righteousness I have is the righteousness of God.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 03:31 AM
It means I am God's righteousness. He became my sin. I became his righteousness. I am as righteous as He is because it is His righteousness that I have. If I don't have His righteousness, I will go to hell. That's what he was saying when he said unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the pharisees, you will parish.

Grace and peace,

Mark

You might want to consider the context here,

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 ( KJV ) 16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The way one is made the righteousness of God is clear, Paul tells us here, it is through the gospel, when one believes they are declared righteous, that is the righteousness of God. It says nothing about God's or Christ's righteousness being transferred to us.

VerticalReality
Jan 28th 2009, 03:44 AM
Butch5,

Why is it that we need a Mediator?

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 03:46 AM
Brother Mark---That's what is says. When I get to heaven, it won't be because of my own righteousness as Isaiah tells us that they are like filthy rags. But His righteousness, that will be enough to get me in. He took on my robe of flesh and sin and he gave me his robe of righteousness.

Isaiah was talking about Israel not every person who ever lived.

Well, I don't know where you found that idea in Scripture that it is Christ's righteousness.

It seems that Noah, Daniel, Job and Abraham will go because of their own righteousness.


Ezekiel 14:12-14 ( KJV ) 12The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 13Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: 14Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.


Ezekiel 18:21-22 ( KJV ) 21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Seems these are considered righteous because of what they did.


BrotherMark---I suppose he did. God granted Abraham righteousness.


Romans 4:2-5 ( KJV ) 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Seems Abraham's righteousness came from his faith.



BrotherMark---Yessir. Otherwise, I would be in big, big trouble. But again, it's not my righteousness. It's his. Here's the verse again.

2 Cor 5:20-21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASB

I have no righteousness outside of Christ Jesus. As the old 7up commercials use to say "Never had it, never will". The only righteousness I have is the righteousness of God.


I hope you get some because Scripture doesn't teach that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 03:48 AM
Butch5,

Why is it that we need a Mediator?

Because of sin.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 03:50 AM
You might want to consider the context here,

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 ( KJV ) 16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The way one is made the righteousness of God is clear, Paul tells us here, it is through the gospel, when one believes they are declared righteous, that is the righteousness of God. It says nothing about God's or Christ's righteousness being transferred to us.

Notice who's righteousness we are made or declared in Him. It's not our own. It's Christ's/God's righteous that we are made into through the gospel of Christ.

VerticalReality
Jan 28th 2009, 03:51 AM
Because of sin.

So why is Jesus able to be that Mediator, and what do you believe is the definition of mediator?

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 03:55 AM
Here's another interesting verse.

1 Cor 1:30-31
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.
NASB

If we are to boast, let us not boast in our faith. Instead, let us boast in the Lord.

Rom 3:21-23

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
NASB

What righteousness is it that we get when we believe? It is the righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is manifested for all those who believe.

Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."
NASB

This verse says the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. For the righteous man shall live by faith. Interesting... who's righteousness is on display? The man's or God's? It is not the man's righteousness that is being revealed but rather God's. So the man's righteousness, is God's righteousness.

We have no righteousness outside of His righteousness.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 03:59 AM
Notice who's righteousness we are made or declared in Him. It's not our own. It's Christ's/God's righteous that we are made into through the gospel of Christ.

I think you missed the point, God's righteousness is the gospel, it is His reconciling the word to Himself through Christ. It is not that we are changed into something else, that we are changed into His righteousness. We become his righteousness means, we become products of His righteousness when we believe. We are the product of God's righteous actions.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 04:01 AM
So why is Jesus able to be that Mediator, and what do you believe is the definition of mediator?

Jesus fulfilled the law, gave Himself a ransom, and finished the work God had sent him to do.

A mediator is one who mediates between to parties, such as a referee.

VerticalReality
Jan 28th 2009, 04:09 AM
Jesus fulfilled the law, gave Himself a ransom, and finished the work God had sent him to do.

A mediator is one who mediates between to parties, such as a referee.

So when God deals with mankind He now deals with them through this Mediator, correct? This is what the Mediator is for, right?

You stated earlier that this Mediator is needed because of sin. This means that without the Mediator God would recognize us for the sinful and imperfect people that we are. In such a state we all fall short and none of us will be able to measure up to that perfect and holy standard. However, when the Mediator is standing on our behalf God no longer recognizes the imperfect. He recognizes the righteousness of Christ. That's the entire point of Christ now being our Mediator. God can now look upon us as though we have no sin. This was the entire point of a new covenant. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away the sin of the world. The blood of Jesus Christ, on the other hand, cleanses us from all sin.

The reason Jesus Christ can be that Mediator is because He is perfectly righteous. He is perfectly holy. Therefore, when God the Father deals with us he does not see our imperfection. He sees the righteousness and perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 04:11 AM
Here's another interesting verse.

1 Cor 1:30-31
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.
NASB

If we are to boast, let us not boast in our faith. Instead, let us boast in the Lord.

Rom 3:21-23

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
NASB

What righteousness is it that we get when we believe? It is the righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is manifested for all those who believe.

Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."
NASB

This verse says the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. For the righteous man shall live by faith. Interesting... who's righteousness is on display? The man's or God's? It is not the man's righteousness that is being revealed but rather God's. So the man's righteousness, is God's righteousness.

We have no righteousness outside of His righteousness.

First of all, these quotes are not speaking of righteousness in the same sense. The one from Romans 3 is a declaration of God, declaring one righteous, one is not given Christ's righteousness. In the Romans 1 verses the righteousness of God, is spoken of as being revealed.

The point is, that for one to be declared righteous by God one must be righteous.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 04:16 AM
So when God deals with mankind He now deals with them through this Mediator, correct? This is what the Mediator is for, right?

You stated earlier that this Mediator is needed because of sin. This means that without the Mediator God would recognize us for the sinful and imperfect people that we are. In such a state we all fall short and none of us will be able to measure up to that perfect and holy standard. However, when the Mediator is standing on our behalf God no longer recognizes the imperfect. He recognizes the righteousness of Christ. That's the entire point of Christ now being our Mediator. God can now look upon us as though we have no sin. This was the entire point of a new covenant. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away the sin of the world. The blood of Jesus Christ, on the other hand, cleanses us from all sin.

The reason Jesus Christ can be that Mediator is because He is perfectly righteous. He is perfectly holy. Therefore, when God the Father deals with us he does not see our imperfection. He sees the righteousness and perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is exactly right Cory. When our sin is gone, we are made righteous. If we have been cleansed from sin, then we are as righteous as God for God has no sin. More importantly, we are conformed to His image as well. And most importantly, he grants us righteousness that we might boast in Him and not in our faith nor in our works. If any man boasts, let him boast in the Lord.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 04:25 AM
So when God deals with mankind He now deals with them through this Mediator, correct? This is what the Mediator is for, right?

You stated earlier that this Mediator is needed because of sin. This means that without the Mediator God would recognize us for the sinful and imperfect people that we are. In such a state we all fall short and none of us will be able to measure up to that perfect and holy standard. However, when the Mediator is standing on our behalf God no longer recognizes the imperfect. He recognizes the righteousness of Christ. That's the entire point of Christ now being our Mediator. God can now look upon us as though we have no sin. This was the entire point of a new covenant. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away the sin of the world. The blood of Jesus Christ, on the other hand, cleanses us from all sin.

The reason Jesus Christ can be that Mediator is because He is perfectly righteous. He is perfectly holy. Therefore, when God the Father deals with us he does not see our imperfection. He sees the righteousness and perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ.


Sorry my friend, I don't believe you will find that in Scripture. Where do you get the idea that God sees us a if we have no sin? If God saw us that way we wouldn't need a mediator. A lawyer is a mediator between the criminal and the Judge, when the lawyer speaks, does that mean the judge sees the criminal as innocent?? Not likely.

VerticalReality
Jan 28th 2009, 05:06 AM
Sorry my friend, I don't believe you will find that in Scripture. Where do you get the idea that God sees us a if we have no sin? If God saw us that way we wouldn't need a mediator. A lawyer is a mediator between the criminal and the Judge, when the lawyer speaks, does that mean the judge sees the criminal as innocent?? Not likely.

It's because of the Mediator that He does see us that way. You take away the Mediator and He is now dealing only with our imperfection.

And in many cases I like the court room sort of example. However, on this occasion I think you are going a tad overboard with it. Jesus has paid the price, so therefore if we are found in Him the trial is over and we have already been found to be washed clean of what we were accused of. Those who are in Him are no longer on trial. However, without that Mediator we are dead ducks.

You will indeed find this all throughout Scripture. The book of Hebrews is a very good book to start with.

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2009, 09:02 AM
It's because of the Mediator that He does see us that way. You take away the Mediator and He is now dealing only with our imperfection.

And in many cases I like the court room sort of example. However, on this occasion I think you are going a tad overboard with it. Jesus has paid the price, so therefore if we are found in Him the trial is over and we have already been found to be washed clean of what we were accused of. Those who are in Him are no longer on trial. However, without that Mediator we are dead ducks.

You will indeed find this all throughout Scripture. The book of Hebrews is a very good book to start with.

Hello VR,

Maybe you could supply some scripture here regarding what has been said.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

CommanderRobey
Jan 28th 2009, 09:31 AM
From the cross, Jesus cried "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

I believe God honored His Son's request for forgiveness... even though the people who put Him on the cross never asked for it.

That being said, Scripture states "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission." We do know Christ's blood was shed. There has to be remission whether one places one's trust in Christ or not for the blood has been shed so the result of remission must take place.

That which causes a man to spend eternity without Christ is not man's sins, but his not placing his trust in the one who forgave all sins on the cross. Man who rejects Christ goes to hell with his sins already paid for.

Christ paid for all sins on the cross.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The atonement has been made. God's wrath was appeased by the atonement made on the cruel cross of Calvary... Christ's blood sacrifice.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 01:37 PM
Hello VR,

Maybe you could supply some scripture here regarding what has been said.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Here's a good starting point.

Col 2:9-14
9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
NASB

If I am "in Him" then it is His righteousness that gets me in. I do not add to the righteousness of Christ when I am "in Him".

Rom 3:22

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
KJV

Here we see the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and UPON ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE. The righteousness of God is put on those that are in Christ. We are in Him and He is in us. When we are in Him, His righteousness is put upon us.

Grace and peace,

Mark

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 01:44 PM
From the cross, Jesus cried "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

I believe God honored His Son's request for forgiveness... even though the people who put Him on the cross never asked for it.

That being said, Scripture states "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission." We do know Christ's blood was shed. There has to be remission whether one places one's trust in Christ or not for the blood has been shed so the result of remission must take place.

That which causes a man to spend eternity without Christ is not man's sins, but his not placing his trust in the one who forgave all sins on the cross. Man who rejects Christ goes to hell with his sins already paid for.

Christ paid for all sins on the cross.



The atonement has been made. God's wrath was appeased by the atonement made on the cruel cross of Calvary... Christ's blood sacrifice.



..................So they're saved they just don't know it. Works for me.

So we need to tell the that they're sins are forgiven?

Firstfruits
Jan 28th 2009, 01:49 PM
Here's a good starting point.

Col 2:9-14
9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
NASB

If I am "in Him" then it is His righteousness that gets me in. I do not add to the righteousness of Christ when I am "in Him".

Rom 3:22

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
KJV

Here we see the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and UPON ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE. The righteousness of God is put on those that are in Christ. We are in Him and He is in us. When we are in Him, His righteousness is put upon us.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Thanks Brother Mark,

That has been really helpful.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
Jan 28th 2009, 07:13 PM
I see your point.

Good. Then you see it is not a matter of God "imputing" anything to us, or us declaring ourselves righteous by Christ (our position). As those things speak to the thought that we are separate from Christ. When in all reality we are part/ in part/ in His Body. IOW participating with Him in His covenant. ie. little christs

What I'm trying to make clear (and may not be doing so good of a job), is you can't see yourself IN Christ and accept something separate from Him.

With Trinity theology this makes sense. Us just fumbling with words and scripture, doesn't make sense.

Butch5
Jan 28th 2009, 11:48 PM
VR---It's because of the Mediator that He does see us that way. You take away the Mediator and He is now dealing only with our imperfection.

Where does Scripture say He sees us that way?


VR---And in many cases I like the court room sort of example. However, on this occasion I think you are going a tad overboard with it. Jesus has paid the price, so therefore if we are found in Him the trial is over and we have already been found to be washed clean of what we were accused of. Those who are in Him are no longer on trial. However, without that Mediator we are dead ducks.

The trial is over?

Matthew 25:31-32 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Seems to me the trial has not yet begun.


VR---You will indeed find this all throughout Scripture. The book of Hebrews is a very good book to start with.


Then you should have no trouble pointing it out.

VerticalReality
Jan 29th 2009, 12:58 AM
Where does Scripture say He sees us that way?

Many have already been provided for you. But regardless, the fact that we need a Mediator in and of itself is enough to prove the point here.


The trial is over?

Yes. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, so if we are found in Him then the enemy has nothing He can accuse us of. If the prosecution, to use your terminology, does not have anything to prosecute us with then there cannot be a trial.


Then you should have no trouble pointing it out.

I've already sufficiently pointed it out. The fact that Jesus is our Mediator is proof in and of itself. You admitted that we need a Mediator because of sin. Whose sin? It is our sin. Therefore, we can automatically conclude that we are not righteous enough just based upon our own works to be justified. So, now we have to look to the Mediator. Why is can Jesus be our Mediator? It is because He is perfectly righteous where we are not righteous. He is perfectly holy where we are not holy.

Therefore, the entire point of having a Mediator is that we do not have to try and be justified based upon our own righteousness. We are found justified based upon the Mediator's righteousness. Without Him you are found to be imperfect and lacking. This is actually a VERY fundamental and basic principle of the Christian faith.

Butch5
Jan 29th 2009, 01:56 AM
VR---Many have already been provided for you. But regardless, the fact that we need a Mediator in and of itself is enough to prove the point here.

so, you don't have any?


VR---Yes. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, so if we are found in Him then the enemy has nothing He can accuse us of. If the prosecution, to use your terminology, does not have anything to prosecute us with then there cannot be a trial.

So then you can go and sin all you want?


I've already sufficiently pointed it out. The fact that Jesus is our Mediator is proof in and of itself. You admitted that we need a Mediator because of sin. Whose sin? It is our sin. Therefore, we can automatically conclude that we are not righteous enough just based upon our own works to be justified. So, now we have to look to the Mediator. Why is can Jesus be our Mediator? It is because He is perfectly righteous where we are not righteous. He is perfectly holy where we are not holy.

That's funny, Abrahm was justified by his work, as was Job, Daniel, and Noah.

Therefore, the entire point of having a Mediator is that we do not have to try and be justified based upon our own righteousness. We are found justified based upon the Mediator's righteousness. Without Him you are found to be imperfect and lacking. This is actually a VERY fundamental and basic principle of the Christian faith.

So, if you were in court standing before a judge, you would be deemed innocent because your lawyer didn't commit the crime? I think all criminals would like to go to that court. Sorry my friend it is the individual that is counted righteous, if they place faith in Christ. There is no Scripture that states that Christ's righteousness is transferred to anyone.

VerticalReality
Jan 29th 2009, 02:17 AM
.

so, you don't have any?

Don't have any what? Again, many Scriptures have already been provided. Why are more needed?


So then you can go and sin all you want?

Why would someone want to "sin all they want"?


That's funny, Abrahm was justified by his work, as was Job, Daniel, and Noah.

What works were they justified by?


So, if you were in court standing before a judge, you would be deemed innocent because your lawyer didn't commit the crime? I think all criminals would like to go to that court. Sorry my friend it is the individual that is counted righteous, if they place faith in Christ. There is no Scripture that states that Christ's righteousness is transferred to anyone.

Never does the Word call Jesus Christ our lawyer. Again, you are going way over the edge with this courtroom analogy. The Word calls Jesus Christ our Savior. He paid our penalty. He took upon Himself our iniquity. He died in our place. Lawyers don't do that. You're absolutely right . . . we are accounted as righteous based upon what Jesus did. Therefore, it is not our righteousness but His . . .

Butch5
Jan 29th 2009, 02:29 AM
VR---Don't have any what? Again, many Scriptures have already been provided. Why are more needed?

It's not more that are needed, it's one's that actually say what you claim they say.




VR---Why would someone want to "sin all they want"?

LOL




VR---What works were they justified by?

You'd have to ask God that, the only one that I know for sure we are told about is Abraham, and his work was offering Issac




VR---Never does the Word call Jesus Christ our lawyer. Again, you are going way over the edge with this courtroom analogy. The Word calls Jesus Christ our Savior. He paid our penalty. He took upon Himself our iniquity. He died in our place. Lawyers don't do that. You're absolutely right . . . we are accounted as righteous based upon what Jesus did. Therefore, it is not our righteousness but His . . .

VR---Wait a minute, you were just agreeing that a lawyer is a mediator, is Jesus not a mediator anymore?

You can continue to say it is not our righteousness, but that is not what Scripture says. Paul and James both use Abraham as their model for righteousness, and it was Abraham, that was counted righteous, his faith was counted for righteousness, Scripture says nothing of Christ's righteousness being transferred to Abraham.

VerticalReality
Jan 29th 2009, 03:00 AM
It's not more that are needed, it's one's that actually say what you claim they say.

If we didn't believe they said what we're proclaiming here we wouldn't bother posting them. I suspect that it doesn't matter what Scriptures are presented. You have decided what it is you believe, and I don't know that anything is going to change about that.


You'd have to ask God that, the only one that I know for sure we are told about is Abraham, and his work was offering Issac

God has already told us . . .

His works were simply a product of faith. Where was Abraham's faith?


VR---Wait a minute, you were just agreeing that a lawyer is a mediator, is Jesus not a mediator anymore?

Not in the sense you are attempting to use it. Again, you are going overboard with this courtroom analogy. When does a lawyer pay the penalty for the client?


You can continue to say it is not our righteousness, but that is not what Scripture says. Paul and James both use Abraham as their model for righteousness, and it was Abraham, that was counted righteous, his faith was counted for righteousness, Scripture says nothing of Christ's righteousness being transferred to Abraham.

That's exactly what Scripture says. It clearly proclaims that our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before the Lord. Your righteousness is not worth anything and neither is mine, which is why we need the perfect work of the Lord Jesus Christ for justification.

Teke
Jan 29th 2009, 01:13 PM
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.+

Some who are opposed to the church have used this verse to claim that all you need is Jesus-not the church.

But the Son became the "one Mediator" by becoming "Man" through the Holy Spirit and a virgin-that is through "God and men". He 'built' His humanity not from Himself alone but from another, the virgin Mary.

Likewise, as the Mediator He says, "I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18). He establishes her leaders and worship. As Mary gives us Christ in His humanity, the church introduces us to Him, who alone is our Mediator.

___________________

As to "ransom", in the context of ancient slavery, a 'ransom' was paid not so much to purchase a slave as it was to free him from his bondage to experience liberty.

This is not a courtroom model.

Firstfruits
Jan 29th 2009, 02:55 PM
It is written that we are saved by grace by faith in Christ, so does that mean that only believers can receive it?

Eph 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

With regards to the following if only those that have put their faith in Christ receive grace then can only those that believe can fall from grace?

Gal 5:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

If you have not put your faith in Christ then you cannot fall from grace.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
Jan 29th 2009, 10:58 PM
VR---If we didn't believe they said what we're proclaiming here we wouldn't bother posting them. I suspect that it doesn't matter what Scriptures are presented. You have decided what it is you believe, and I don't know that anything is going to change about that.

It doesn't matter what you believe the verses say, what matters is what the writer meant to say when He wrote the verses.



Vr---God has already told us . . .

His works were simply a product of faith. Where was Abraham's faith?


So then, did God not say that Abraham, Job, Daniel, and Noah were righteous because of their works???



VR---Not in the sense you are attempting to use it. Again, you are going overboard with this courtroom analogy. When does a lawyer pay the penalty for the client?

I'm going overboard? why because it doesn't fit your doctrine? The Lawyer doesn't pay the penalty, that is my point. What is the wages of sin? Paul says death, we all sin,we all die.




VR---That's exactly what Scripture says. It clearly proclaims that our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before the Lord. Your righteousness is not worth anything and neither is mine, which is why we need the perfect work of the Lord Jesus Christ for justification.

Look at the context, Isaiah says Israel's righteousness's are as filthy rags, not all men. Sorry my friend, my righteousness is not worthless, Jesus said unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees you will not see the kingdom. The key is that I don't trust my righteousness for salvation, I trust God for my salvation.

VerticalReality
Jan 30th 2009, 01:33 AM
It doesn't matter what you believe the verses say, what matters is what the writer meant to say when He wrote the verses.

With all due respect, this same sort of argument could be used for anything. If I take the most basic and foundational doctrine I'm sure I could find someone to state, "It doesn't matter what you believe the verses say, what matters is what the writer meant to say when He wrote the verses."

Jehovah's Witnesses use this same sort of approach. Show them Scripture that refutes their positions and they will use the exact same comment you made above. Obviously we believe that those verses are saying what we believe here, and it is indeed what the writer was trying to state. Otherwise, we wouldn't bother referencing those here. The clear fact here is that just because you may not agree does not mean that those verses are not saying what we believe they are. The same is true for the Jehovah's Witness. Just because they do not believe that those verses are saying what we proclaim that they are doesn't mean that our interpretation is now wrong.


So then, did God not say that Abraham, Job, Daniel, and Noah were righteous because of their works???

What sort of works were they justified by? They were justified by works of faith. It was because of this faith that they were accounted as righteous. Where did their faith lie?


I'm going overboard? why because it doesn't fit your doctrine? The Lawyer doesn't pay the penalty, that is my point. What is the wages of sin? Paul says death, we all sin,we all die.

But Jesus did pay our penalty, so therefore your lawyer analogy doesn't quite fit. Our iniquity and the penalty of it was laid on Jesus.


Look at the context, Isaiah says Israel's righteousness's are as filthy rags, not all men. Sorry my friend, my righteousness is not worthless, Jesus said unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees you will not see the kingdom. The key is that I don't trust my righteousness for salvation, I trust God for my salvation.

What makes your righteousness better than other men? Why do you think the Pharisees were not viewed as righteous? Why don't you trust in your righteousness for salvation? This goes right back to the Mediator. Without the Mediator you are not viewed as righteous. If you were viewed as righteous you would no longer need a Mediator.

Butch5
Jan 30th 2009, 02:19 AM
VR---With all due respect, this same sort of argument could be used for anything. If I take the most basic and foundational doctrine I'm sure I could find someone to state, "It doesn't matter what you believe the verses say, what matters is what the writer meant to say when He wrote the verses."

Jehovah's Witnesses use this same sort of approach. Show them Scripture that refutes their positions and they will use the exact same comment you made above. Obviously we believe that those verses are saying what we believe here, and it is indeed what the writer was trying to state. Otherwise, we wouldn't bother referencing those here. The clear fact here is that just because you may not agree does not mean that those verses are not saying what we believe they are. The same is true for the Jehovah's Witness. Just because they do not believe that those verses are saying what we proclaim that they are doesn't mean that our interpretation is now wrong.


That is my whole point, you have pulled a few verses of Scripture and said they mean this, You have not shown how they mean what you claim they mean in the "context" of the passage they were pulled from. I can say we are saved by works and pull these,

John 5:27-29 ( KJV ) 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Hebrews 5:9 ( KJV ) 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Romans 2:5-9 ( KJV ) 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

So I can just post these verse and say see we are saved by works. Does that mean we are saved by works? You can make verses say what ever you want if you pull them out of context. Like I said all you did was post a few verses with nothing to give context.


VR----What sort of works were they justified by? They were justified by works of faith. It was because of this faith that they were accounted as righteous. Where did their faith lie?

It doesn't matter, the Scripture says they were righteous because of what they did. It doesn't say that Christ's righteousness was transferred to them.




VR---But Jesus did pay our penalty, so therefore your lawyer analogy doesn't quite fit. Our iniquity and penalty of it was laid on Jesus.

If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus paid that, why do Christians die?

The lawyer analogy does fit.




VR---What makes your righteousness better than other men? Why do you think the Pharisees were not viewed as righteous? Why don't you trust in your righteousness for salvation? This goes right back to the Mediator. Without the Mediator you are not viewed as righteous. If you were viewed as righteous you would no longer need a Mediator.

I didn't say my righteousness was better than other men.

The Pharisees were viewed as righteous.

Human righteousness is not capable of salvation

Just because you have the mediator does not guarantee that you will be view as righteous.

divaD
Jan 30th 2009, 02:45 AM
Quote:
VR---That's exactly what Scripture says. It clearly proclaims that our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before the Lord.
Your righteousness is not worth anything and neither is mine, which is why we need the perfect work of the Lord Jesus
Christ for justification.

Look at the context, Isaiah says Israel's righteousness's are as filthy rags, not all men. Sorry my friend, my righteousness is
not worthless, Jesus said unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees you will not see the kingdom. The key is
that I don't trust my righteousness for salvation, I trust God for my salvation.


Hi Butch5. You certainly don't need my help with anything. You're doing an excellent job of presenting what the Scriptures are actually saying. I just wanted to make a quick comment about Isaiah Ch 64. It is indeed specifically referring to Israel. I truly appreciete anyone that interprets Scripture according to it's context. If more Christians would do this, there would be less debating what the Scriptures are saying.

FWIW, I truly hear you loud and clear in this thread. If those that are disagreeing with you actually took the time to humble themselves, and just listen for a bit, they might discover that you are indeed presenting Scripture as it is written.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


What do we see in verse 29? We see that He(Jesus) is righteous. Then we see "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him". Notice the word 'doeth' here. This is the keyword. It doesn't state "every one that has Christ's righteousness is born of him". It states " every one that doeth righteousness is born of him".


Then again we see this same concept in the next ch with verse 7.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


Once again we see that keyword 'doeth'. It doesn't state "he that has Christ's righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous". It states "he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous".

Firstfruits
Jan 30th 2009, 09:07 AM
Hi Butch5. You certainly don't need my help with anything. You're doing an excellent job of presenting what the Scriptures are actually saying. I just wanted to make a quick comment about Isaiah Ch 64. It is indeed specifically referring to Israel. I truly appreciete anyone that interprets Scripture according to it's context. If more Christians would do this, there would be less debating what the Scriptures are saying.

FWIW, I truly hear you loud and clear in this thread. If those that are disagreeing with you actually took the time to humble themselves, and just listen for a bit, they might discover that you are indeed presenting Scripture as it is written.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


What do we see in verse 29? We see that He(Jesus) is righteous. Then we see "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him". Notice the word 'doeth' here. This is the keyword. It doesn't state "every one that has Christ's righteousness is born of him". It states " every one that doeth righteousness is born of him".


Then again we see this same concept in the next ch with verse 7.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


Once again we see that keyword 'doeth'. It doesn't state "he that has Christ's righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous". It states "he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous".

How therefore do we do righteousness?

1 Jn 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 Jn 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

What does it mean not to do righteousness?

1 Jn 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 10:30 AM
1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


What do we see in verse 29? We see that He(Jesus) is righteous. Then we see "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him". Notice the word 'doeth' here. This is the keyword. It doesn't state "every one that has Christ's righteousness is born of him". It states " every one that doeth righteousness is born of him".


Then again we see this same concept in the next ch with verse 7.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


Once again we see that keyword 'doeth'. It doesn't state "he that has Christ's righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous". It states "he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous".

Hi Diva. Everyone born of him does do righteousness because when Christ is in someone, His righteousness will come out of that person.

Abraham was declared righteous before he offered his son Isaac.

Anyway, it's already been quoted but 2 Cor. 5:21 says we have been made the righteousness of God. That's a pretty strong verse.

Grace and peace,

Mark

VerticalReality
Jan 30th 2009, 02:26 PM
You can make verses say what ever you want if you pull them out of context. Like I said all you did was post a few verses with nothing to give context.

We believe the context is there. Otherwise, we wouldn't reference them. I realize that I need a Mediator because without Him I'm not viewed as being righteous. If I were viewed as righteous I wouldn't need that Mediator. The reason I am now viewed as righteous with the Mediator is because it's not based upon my own righteousness. It's based on the righteousness and the perfection of the sacrifice to cleanse me of all sin.


It doesn't matter, the Scripture says they were righteous because of what they did. It doesn't say that Christ's righteousness was transferred to them.

Actually, I believe it says they did because they were righteous by faith. Without the faith they wouldn't have done anything. It is the faith that makes one righteous because it means that the one with faith is trusting in the Lord to save them.


If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus paid that, why do Christians die?

Spiritually they do not . . .

Why is that? In spirit we have been sealed and we are one spirit with Him. How is that possible?


The lawyer analogy does fit.

You have yet to explain how this is so? A lawyer does not take the penalty of the crime upon himself. You seem to view Jesus as just being one who defends us. Jesus doesn't just defend us as some lawyer would do. Jesus has set us free. Those who are found in Him have no one left to accuse them.

Romans 8:31-33
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

What's included in this "all things" that Paul refers to here?

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Notice all these things we have . . . past tense . . .

These are not things we will have. These are things that He has already given.

Furthermore, . . .

Colossians 1:9-14
For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Again, you will notice here that these are all things that have already been given to us by God. We have already been given every spiritual blessing. We have already been redeemed by His blood and forgiven of our sins. We are already qualified through His blood.

Why is all this through His blood? It is because He is the perfect sacrifice, and it is His righteousness and purity that takes away the sins of the world.

How is it that we can be qualified, be delivered, be redeemed, cleansed of all sin, etc., even though we still are not perfect?

The reason is because our salvation is not based upon our own righteousness. It is by His grace through faith that we are saved. It's by His grace through faith that we accounted as being righteous. Where does the faith lie? It lies in Jesus. The One who poured out His blood that we may be cleansed and saved from our sin. Without His righteousness and perfection the blood wouldn't have been able to cleanse a thing. We are cleansed based upon His perfection and His righteousness. Being that He is perfect and He was that spotless Lamb He is capable of standing in as our Mediator, and the reason we need this Mediator to cleanse us of all sin is because we are not righteous in and of ourselves. Our righteousness is found completely in Him.

divaD
Jan 30th 2009, 03:33 PM
How is it that we can be qualified, be delivered, be redeemed, cleansed of all sin, etc., even though we still are not perfect?

The reason is because our salvation is not based upon our own righteousness. It is by His grace through faith that we are
saved. It's by His grace through faith that we accounted as being righteous. Where does the faith lie? It lies in Jesus. The One
who poured out His blood that we may be cleansed and saved from our sin. Without His righteousness and perfection the
blood wouldn't have been able to cleanse a thing. We are cleansed based upon His perfection and His righteousness. Being
that He is perfect and He was that spotless Lamb He is capable of standing in as our Mediator, and the reason we need this
Mediator to cleanse us of all sin is because we are not righteous in and of ourselves. Our righteousness is found completely in
Him.


Perhaps the problem is that everyone here is simply misunderstanding one another? When I read what you wrote up above, I basically have no disagreements with your conclusions. But at the same time, if Jesus' righteousness is passed on to us, then that means that we can basically do whatever we want, because we are covered by Jesus' righteousness. The problem with that, many do take that to heart and do whatever they please. I have known some professed Christians that lived like this. They would drink, cuss, etc, because they were taught that it was Jesus' righteousness that covered them. They simply believed that no matter what they did, God saw them as righteous thru the lens of Christ. These are the kinds of things that we need to be concerned with. We need to be telling people that they need to be righteous because Christ is righteous, and not because Christ's righteousness covers them. That let's everybody off the hook. No one is any longer accountable for their actions if Christ's righteousness is passed upon to them. Basically one can do whatever one pleases, and still be righteous, because Christ's righteousness was transferred to them. To be righteous because Christ is righteous..this requires action on our part. We have to do righteous deeds, just like Christ did righteous deeds.

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 03:41 PM
Perhaps the problem is that everyone here is simply misunderstanding one another? When I read what you wrote up above, I basically have no disagreements with your conclusions. But at the same time, if Jesus' righteousness is passed on to us, then that means that we can basically do whatever we want, because we are covered by Jesus' righteousness. The problem with that, many do take that to heart and do whatever they please. I have known some professed Christians that lived like this. They would drink, cuss, etc, because they were taught that it was Jesus' righteousness that covered them. They simply believed that no matter what they did, God saw them as righteous thru the lens of Christ. These are the kinds of things that we need to be concerned with. We need to be telling people that they need to be righteous because Christ is righteous, and not because Christ's righteousness covers them. That let's everybody off the hook. No one is any longer accountable for their actions if Christ's righteousness is passed upon to them. Basically one can do whatever one pleases, and still be righteous, because Christ's righteousness was transferred to them. To be righteous because Christ is righteous..this requires action on our part. We have to do righteous deeds, just like Christ did righteous deeds.

When people are convicted of righteousness (i.e. realize their righteousness in Christ) the sinning gets less, not more. Righteousness is not license. Though sometimes when one preaches grace properly, he may like Paul pause and say "should we sin that grace may abound, heaven forbid". Let us preach truth and let folks fall where they may concerning sin.

IOW, we sin because of what we are. When we learn truth properly, it will lead to less sin. Knowing that I have the righteousness of Christ did not cause me to sin more, it caused me to sin less. Knowing God loves me caused me to sin less. The more truth one appropriates in their heart, the less they sin. When one gets their full identity in Christ, much grace is had for overcoming sin.

VerticalReality
Jan 30th 2009, 04:06 PM
But at the same time, if Jesus' righteousness is passed on to us, then that means that we can basically do whatever we want, because we are covered by Jesus' righteousness.

Why does it mean that? I would say that if someone truly believes that they can do whatever they want and they have no conviction whatsoever with committing sin then I would say they either never truly had His righteousness in them or they have chosen to reject it. This doctrine has never caused me to want to go out and sin all I want. In fact, it is the exact opposite. This doctrine makes me want to live holy. I'm obviously not perfect at being holy all the time, but I cannot just sin and it not bother me.


The problem with that, many do take that to heart and do whatever they please. I have known some professed Christians that lived like this. They would drink, cuss, etc, because they were taught that it was Jesus' righteousness that covered them.

I would say that it wasn't the teaching that caused them to do that. There are many who do all the things you listed above and are taught that they are going straight to hell if they don't repent. Yet, they still choose to carry on in sin. Many want to say that what I have stated above gives folks a license to sin. However, I don't recall a license ever being needed for man to sin. Mankind does a bang up job sinning all the time regardless. It is the grace of God that leads us to repentance. It is His love for us that brings us to a point of submission. It was when I got revelation of His love for me that I then desired in my heart to live for Him.


They simply believed that no matter what they did, God saw them as righteous thru the lens of Christ. These are the kinds of things that we need to be concerned with.

What I'm teaching does not say that we can go out and do whatever we want to do and everything will be fine and dandy. Those who are born of God will have a desire in them to live as He would have them live. That's not saying they will do it perfectly, which is why we need the Lord Jesus Christ to remain in right standing with the Lord even though we do fail.


We need to be telling people that they need to be righteous because Christ is righteous, and not because Christ's righteousness covers them.

Actually, I think this sort of teaching sets people in a "works mentality" where they feel they have to earn God's favor. I teach people that they are already righteous in Him. Our standing with God is not dependant upon our performance. Our standing with God is dependant upon our faith in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. To tell folks that they need to do this or that in order to remain in a certain standing with God will place them in a mindset that if they fail in some place or another then God is disappointed with them and they aren't measuring up to that righteous standard. The standard has already been set, and the position has already been achieved in Christ Jesus. We are declared righteous apart from our performance. Of course that is not saying that we should teach people that they can now go out and do whatever they want. However, folks need to be confident in where they stand with the Lord, and where they stand is not dependant upon their own performance.

Take a babe in Christ, for example. Nobody who is a newly born again Christian is going to have it all figured out, and these folks are going to stumble here in there while they grow in Him. That's also not to mention that many have stongholds and other things that the enemy has built in their mind that need to be torn down. If I teach them that they have to be righteous like Christ or God is going to be mad at them then they are going to be headed straight off into failure because none of them will measure up to that standard. Many people teach today that salvation is by grace and grace alone, but then we want to say after salvation that we have to work to be able to keep it. There is no security in that teaching. We make salvation about grace when we confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and then we turn around and make keeping the salvation about our performance . . . which I believe is exactly what Paul is preaching against in Galatians. Our performance will never measure up, which is why we need the righteousness of Christ.


That let's everybody off the hook. No one is any longer accountable for their actions if Christ's righteousness is passed upon to them. Basically one can do whatever one pleases, and still be righteous, because Christ's righteousness was transferred to them. To be righteous because Christ is righteous..this requires action on our part. We have to do righteous deeds, just like Christ did righteous deeds.

The action comes because we love Him and His righteousness now dwells within us. We do not do things because we are trying to keep our standing with God intact. Our position and standing with God is quite secure.

theBelovedDisciple
Jan 30th 2009, 04:47 PM
Excellent post VR

I agree that many have 'adopted' a works teaching.. in order to be Righteous... many have fallen into the trap of 'legalism'... do's and don'ts.... they have placed their 'position' in Christ 'conditional' on their own power on what to do or not to do... and when you do something outside of those set parameters..laid out religiously... then here comes condemnation... guilt, fear......

There is 'NO CONDEMNATION' for those in Christ Jesus who walk not according to the flesh but the Spirit...

In Him you are SECURE... He is YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS... and you do things and don't do things because of Him and wanting and desiring to follow Him... 'IN HIM' you are Secure.. and He is Your Righteousness... bondage to man made righteous rules and works is 'real'... only the Revelation of Jesus the Christ and His Great Work at Calvary will set those who are in Bondage .... Free from it...


It Is Finished....

Teke
Jan 30th 2009, 04:55 PM
The lawyer analogy does fit.

Just because you have the mediator does not guarantee that you will be view as righteous.


The lawyer analogy doesn't fit. We are not in a courtroom. Your either in a covenant with Christ or your not. As Jesus said, "let your yea be yea and your nay be nay". There is no middle ground.
You are right that just because you have The Mediator doesn't guarantee you anything.

Esau is a good example. He was just as much a child of God as Jacob was. But Esau didn't think as much of this as Jacob did. IOW he looked to worldly things and sold his birthright. Anyone can do such as Esau did.

Teke
Jan 30th 2009, 05:00 PM
I see the ones who relate to the 'works' concept as just trying to please their Father by doing whatever they know they should do. But as the parable of the prodigal teaches us, this doesn't make you righteous, it just makes you a good son who obeys his Father.

The good side to the prodigal, is that he repents and returns to his father. This pleases the father.

In both instances the Father has to be pleased with you. Because he is the one who's decision matters. :)

divaD
Jan 30th 2009, 05:25 PM
IOW, we sin because of what we are. When we learn truth properly, it will lead to less sin. Knowing that I have the
righteousness of Christ did not cause me to sin more, it caused me to sin less

I 100% agree with you here, but the point I'm trying to get across, not everyone learns the truth properly. Just like in my prev example, there are some that truly believe they can do whatever they want because Christ already paid the price for any wrongdoing they would do. They pretty much consider themselves unnacountable for their actions.

As an example of another point I'm trying to stress, take the poor for instance. If Christ's righteousness is transferred to us, does that automatically mean the poor are getting fed? Does that mean that we don't need to physically do something to feed the poor? And if we do help feed the poor, just like Christ would have, wouldn't that then mean that we would be righteous, just as Christ is righteous, because we chose to do what Christ would have done? In that sense, Christ's righteousness would be truly transferred to us, but it took action on our part.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I don't for one second believe that any of us can be righteous enough on our own to save ourselves. Clearly the only way to salvation is thru Christ. I just see righteousness in a deeper sense. It requires action on our part to be righteous, like Christ was/is righteous.

Believe it or not, I'm not really so much disagreeing with you and VR, I just think there's a little bit more to it that requires some sort of action on our part.

Teke
Jan 30th 2009, 05:40 PM
As an example of another point I'm trying to stress, take the poor for instance. If Christ's righteousness is transferred to us, does that automatically mean the poor are getting fed? Does that mean that we don't need to physically do something to feed the poor? And if we do help feed the poor, just like Christ would have, wouldn't that then mean that we would be righteous, just as Christ is righteous, because we chose to do what Christ would have done? In that sense, Christ's righteousness would be truly transferred to us, but it took action on our part.



Just to add some scripture here.

Jhn 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

What did Abraham do? He believed God in all that he did.

Butch5
Jan 30th 2009, 11:30 PM
VR---We believe the context is there. Otherwise, we wouldn't reference them. I realize that I need a Mediator because without Him I'm not viewed as being righteous. If I were viewed as righteous I wouldn't need that Mediator. The reason I am now viewed as righteous with the Mediator is because it's not based upon my own righteousness. It's based on the righteousness and the perfection of the sacrifice to cleanse me of all sin.

OK, then please post the verses again and show from context that they state that Christ's righteousness is being transferred to believers.



VR---Actually, I believe it says they did because they were righteous by faith. Without the faith they wouldn't have done anything. It is the faith that makes one righteous because it means that the one with faith is trusting in the Lord to save them.


OK, please show from context where Scripture teaches this.


VR---Spiritually they do not . . .

Why is that? In spirit we have been sealed and we are one spirit with Him. How is that possible?

You might want to look at that again, Paul is writing to Christians when he tells them, the wages of sin is death. We know all Christians die, why is that if the price has already been paid? All Christians sin and all Christians die, why?




VR---You have yet to explain how this is so? A lawyer does not take the penalty of the crime upon himself. You seem to view Jesus as just being one who defends us. Jesus doesn't just defend us as some lawyer would do. Jesus has set us free. Those who are found in Him have no one left to accuse them.

Jesus died to set us free, He lived a life without sin, by doing so, God had grounds to declare innocent (forgive), those who would place their faith in Christ. Christ is our mediator, because we are guilty of the crimes against us, we were condemned to both death and hell.


VR---Romans 8:31-33
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

What's included in this "all things" that Paul refers to here?

Who is the "us" in the above quote?


VR---Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Notice all these things we have . . . past tense . . .

These are not things we will have. These are things that He has already given.

Again, look at the context. Who is Paul speaking of in the above verses? You are correct, they are past tense, this should be a clue.


VR---Furthermore, . . .

Colossians 1:9-14
For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Again, you will notice here that these are all things that have already been given to us by God. We have already been given every spiritual blessing. We have already been redeemed by His blood and forgiven of our sins. We are already qualified through His blood.

Again, look at the context, who is Paul speaking of in the above verses?




VR---Why is all this through His blood? It is because He is the perfect sacrifice, and it is His righteousness and purity that takes away the sins of the world.

How is it that we can be qualified, be delivered, be redeemed, cleansed of all sin, etc., even though we still are not perfect?

The reason is because our salvation is not based upon our own righteousness. It is by His grace through faith that we are saved. It's by His grace through faith that we accounted as being righteous. Where does the faith lie? It lies in Jesus. The One who poured out His blood that we may be cleansed and saved from our sin. Without His righteousness and perfection the blood wouldn't have been able to cleanse a thing. We are cleansed based upon His perfection and His righteousness. Being that He is perfect and He was that spotless Lamb He is capable of standing in as our Mediator, and the reason we need this Mediator to cleanse us of all sin is because we are not righteous in and of ourselves. Our righteousness is found completely in Him.

This isn't the issue, the issue is, is Christ's righteousness transferred to believers.

Butch5
Jan 30th 2009, 11:32 PM
Hi Butch5. You certainly don't need my help with anything. You're doing an excellent job of presenting what the Scriptures are actually saying. I just wanted to make a quick comment about Isaiah Ch 64. It is indeed specifically referring to Israel. I truly appreciete anyone that interprets Scripture according to it's context. If more Christians would do this, there would be less debating what the Scriptures are saying.

FWIW, I truly hear you loud and clear in this thread. If those that are disagreeing with you actually took the time to humble themselves, and just listen for a bit, they might discover that you are indeed presenting Scripture as it is written.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


What do we see in verse 29? We see that He(Jesus) is righteous. Then we see "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him". Notice the word 'doeth' here. This is the keyword. It doesn't state "every one that has Christ's righteousness is born of him". It states " every one that doeth righteousness is born of him".


Then again we see this same concept in the next ch with verse 7.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


Once again we see that keyword 'doeth'. It doesn't state "he that has Christ's righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous". It states "he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous".

Thanks, that's my point. The Scriptures don't teach the concept that Christ's righteousness is transferred to us. We are righteous because God declares us righteous, that is the righteousness of God.

Butch5
Jan 31st 2009, 12:30 AM
Hi Diva. Everyone born of him does do righteousness because when Christ is in someone, His righteousness will come out of that person.

Abraham was declared righteous before he offered his son Isaac.

Anyway, it's already been quoted but 2 Cor. 5:21 says we have been made the righteousness of God. That's a pretty strong verse.

Grace and peace,

Mark


James 2:20-23 ( KJV ) 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Brother Mark
Jan 31st 2009, 03:27 PM
James 2:20-23 ( KJV ) 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Gen 15:1-6

15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,

"Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great."

2 And Abram said, "O Lord God, what wilt Thou give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "Since Thou hast given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir." 4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who shall come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
NASB

God counted Abraham righteous before he offered his son. His offering of Isaac revealed it though. I am familiar with James. That is what James is saying. God in Genesis had ALREADY reckoned Abraham righteous when Abraham believed. His faith was the live kind and had works as proven by his offering of Isaac. But scripture shows God reckoned it to him as righteousness when he believed not at the offering of Isaac. Abraham's faith was alive. Living faith will have works. Abraham was reckoned righteous before Isaac was ever born. His offering just fulfilled that which was already true.

Butch5
Feb 1st 2009, 04:20 AM
Gen 15:1-6

15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,

"Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great."

2 And Abram said, "O Lord God, what wilt Thou give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "Since Thou hast given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir." 4 Then behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who shall come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
NASB

God counted Abraham righteous before he offered his son. His offering of Isaac revealed it though. I am familiar with James. That is what James is saying. God in Genesis had ALREADY reckoned Abraham righteous when Abraham believed. His faith was the live kind and had works as proven by his offering of Isaac. But scripture shows God reckoned it to him as righteousness when he believed not at the offering of Isaac. Abraham's faith was alive. Living faith will have works. Abraham was reckoned righteous before Isaac was ever born. His offering just fulfilled that which was already true.

Good point, it appears that Abraham was counted righteous on more than one account.