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JesusMySavior
Jan 27th 2009, 06:37 PM
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

Many theologians of eschatology say that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit or the Church, to be raptured out of this world before the antichrist comes to power, so that there is no interference of this evil man's plan to dictate the world. I am, through reading the Bible, a post-tribber, even though many of my favorite teachers are pre-tribbers. This scripture seems to support pre-tribulation rapture yet it is the only one that I can find that supports this view. I am not going to debate pre-trib/post-trib because you can click on any thread in ETC and hear people spat about it.

What I am wondering is, for pre-tribbers, this scripture would make sense as the restrainer being the Church or the Holy Ghost; but I'm curious what the post-tribbers here think. Who else could restrain from keeping the man of sin?

Obviously if it was the Holy Ghost, there would be no saints in the tribulation since He is our Comforter (John 14:16) and keeps us from sin. This also seems to contradict since it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and saves, and the Bible speaks of saints in the tribulation - but if they're all raptured out and there's no Holy Ghost, who can be saved? It must be the church if one is a pre-tribber, NOT the Holy Ghost. But if you're a post-tribber, then who is He that restrains?


Thanks saints!

Amos_with_goats
Jan 27th 2009, 06:57 PM
Interesting, I have been thinking of the same scripture the last couple of days.

Couple thoughts;

If the 'restrainer' were the Holy Spirit, would not the Lord have used the same name?

If the Holy Spirit is removed, and we know there are 'saints martyred in the tribulation' how are they convinced of their sin that they may come to Christ?



On edit: also, when in the entirety of human history would the ministry of 'The Comforter' be more needed then in the midst of the Great Tribulation?

Amos_with_goats
Jan 27th 2009, 07:15 PM
Ok, one more thing and then I will shut up for a few minutes...

Lets look at the passage in context. Here are the verses

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Three things stick out to me.


1.) Verse 3 clearly states that the Lord SHALL NOT RETURN until the son of perdition is reveled. Verse 7&8 tells us that "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall that Wicked be revealed..." So, if the Lord does not return until after the man of sin is reveled, then if the Holy Spirit were to be removed first then Christ would leave His Church without the Holy Spirit which He has promised not to do.


2.) The Holy Spirit, would be a Capital 'H' in he if it referred to Him. It is clearly lower case....
of course I know some do not hold scripture to be perfect and will argue with this.



3.) I can not remember what #3 was, so I will just post this and move on to something else... :D

crush
Jan 27th 2009, 08:32 PM
Isn't it true that this "Beast" is the same one that "ascends from the bottomless pit"?

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The bottomless pit would seem to be a prison of sort, with a locking mechanism that requires a key to open. So maybe his jailer, the "angel with the key to the bottomless pit", is the one that is restraining him now, and will be removed to allow his freedom?

David Taylor
Jan 27th 2009, 08:48 PM
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

if you're a post-tribber, then who is He that restrains?


The Father is the one who puts into motion the end-time events.

Acts 17:26 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed"

When His restrain of Satan stops, then Satan will be released from his bindings that currently prevent him from stopping the Gentiles from believing (like he did nearly 100% during O.T. times). This will be Satan's little season prior to the Lord's glorious Return from Heaven.

quiet dove
Jan 27th 2009, 08:49 PM
2.) The Holy Spirit, would be a Capital 'H' in he if it referred to Him. It is clearly lower case....
of course I know some do not hold scripture to be perfect and will argue with this.


Depends on which translation, mine has a capital "H". NKJV. And the KJV does not have a lot of references to the Spirit, or he as in Christ or God capitalized, I dont think anyway.

Nihil Obstat
Jan 27th 2009, 09:21 PM
The restrainer of v.6 is neuter in gender, and is restraining the revealing of Jesus (1:7; 2:1-3a), not the Antichrist - this first reference to the restrainer speaks of things, not people, being what he just spoke of: 1) the falling away must happen first, 2) then the lawless one will be revealed. These two things must happen before the revealing of Jesus.

The restrainer of v.7 is masculine in gender, and judging by the "then" in v.8 (which speaks of the lawless one being revealed), the restrainer here must then be speaking of the falling away.

So yes, the church is the restrainer, however, it is not the church flying away, but falling away.

- Astro

rom826
Jan 27th 2009, 11:55 PM
The church can not restrain on its own. It is only by the power of God and His abiblity that the church can do anything. The church does not have to leave the earth for Holy Spirit to stop functioning as a restrainer of the anti-Christ.

pinky
Jan 27th 2009, 11:57 PM
It seems that there is only One who is the 'restrainer'...


Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

God bless in Christ,
pinky

rom826
Jan 27th 2009, 11:59 PM
2.) The Holy Spirit, would be a Capital 'H' in he if it referred to Him. It is clearly lower case....
of course I know some do not hold scripture to be perfect and will argue with this.






Capital "H" and lower case is something that translators did and not necessarily what was originally inspired by God.

BroRog
Jan 28th 2009, 12:10 AM
Obviously if it was the Holy Ghost, there would be no saints in the tribulation since He is our Comforter (John 14:16) and keeps us from sin. This also seems to contradict since it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and saves, and the Bible speaks of saints in the tribulation - but if they're all raptured out and there's no Holy Ghost, who can be saved? It must be the church if one is a pre-tribber, NOT the Holy Ghost. But if you're a post-tribber, then who is He that restrains?


Thanks saints!

I am one of those who think Paul is talking about the Holy Spirit. But I don't think Paul means to say that the Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth or that the Church will be raptured. I think he simply means this. Whatever the Holy Spirit is doing to keep the man of lawlessness from coming to power, he will stop doing that. It doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit has to leave. It simply means that the Holy Spirit will not prevent the man of lawlessness from showing up anymore. I'm sure the Holy Spirit will still be around to help Christians etc.

pinky
Jan 28th 2009, 01:08 AM
I am one of those who think Paul is talking about the Holy Spirit. But I don't think Paul means to say that the Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth or that the Church will be raptured. I think he simply means this. Whatever the Holy Spirit is doing to keep the man of lawlessness from coming to power, he will stop doing that. It doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit has to leave. It simply means that the Holy Spirit will not prevent the man of lawlessness from showing up anymore. I'm sure the Holy Spirit will still be around to help Christians etc.

We are in agreement.

I will take it a step further and say that I think He stops 'restraining' the son of perdition because of the falling away from the Truth by the church.

JesusMySavior
Jan 28th 2009, 05:12 AM
The restrainer of v.6 is neuter in gender, and is restraining the revealing of Jesus (1:7; 2:1-3a), not the Antichrist - this first reference to the restrainer speaks of things, not people, being what he just spoke of: 1) the falling away must happen first, 2) then the lawless one will be revealed. These two things must happen before the revealing of Jesus.

The restrainer of v.7 is masculine in gender, and judging by the "then" in v.8 (which speaks of the lawless one being revealed), the restrainer here must then be speaking of the falling away.

So yes, the church is the restrainer, however, it is not the church flying away, but falling away.

- Astro


This is an interesting view :bounce:

possumliving
Jan 28th 2009, 05:47 AM
The restrainer of v.6 is neuter in gender, and is restraining the revealing of Jesus (1:7; 2:1-3a), not the Antichrist - this first reference to the restrainer speaks of things, not people, being what he just spoke of: 1) the falling away must happen first, 2) then the lawless one will be revealed. These two things must happen before the revealing of Jesus.

The restrainer of v.7 is masculine in gender, and judging by the "then" in v.8 (which speaks of the lawless one being revealed), the restrainer here must then be speaking of the falling away.

So yes, the church is the restrainer, however, it is not the church flying away, but falling away.

- Astro

Yep, ditto that! Go down further in the verses and see that God judges those who did not love the truth so that they might be saved. And that judgement is a spirit of delusion.

2 Thess 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error {and} a strong delusion to make them believe what is false,
2 Thess 2:12 In order that all may be judged {and} condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Since this is prior to wrath, I'd say that the judgement is part of the great falling away. And still, since it is happening already, and the antichrist hasn't been revealed, we must be pretty close.

Steph

DurbanDude
Jan 28th 2009, 06:49 AM
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

Many theologians of eschatology say that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit or the Church, to be raptured out of this world before the antichrist comes to power, so that there is no interference of this evil man's plan to dictate the world. I am, through reading the Bible, a post-tribber, even though many of my favorite teachers are pre-tribbers. This scripture seems to support pre-tribulation rapture yet it is the only one that I can find that supports this view. I am not going to debate pre-trib/post-trib because you can click on any thread in ETC and hear people spat about it.

What I am wondering is, for pre-tribbers, this scripture would make sense as the restrainer being the Church or the Holy Ghost; but I'm curious what the post-tribbers here think. Who else could restrain from keeping the man of sin?

Please note that it is the "revealing" of the man of sin that is being restrained.

We have two confirmations in the bible that it is the church who hastens the end, by preaching the gospel. If its God's plan to hasten the end, then who do you think is slowing things down:
Rev 12 states that Satan is fighting to STAY in heaven, even though he knows that when he is cast to earth there will be great destruction. Why would Satan be the one to try and slow down God's plan? It is explained clearly "because he knows his time is short". Satan knows that when the church has completed its commission to preach to all nations, he will only have 3.5 years left of rule on earth. His evil is already on earth but he is delaying his full wrath because he prefers accusing the saints from heaven, than being on earth for a short period of wrath, of this Rev 12 is clear:

12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Here we have a clear explanation that Satan has to be taken out of the way, he has to be overcome by the testimony of the saints and a war in heaven before he reveals his full wrath to earth.This seems to contradict the nature of Satan, that Satan would delay his full wrath, but the scripture is clear that this is what Satan is doing.

I believe the restrainer is Satan, who is restraining the revealing of the antichrist because he knows that when he is revealed Satan's time will be short. We the church will stop Satan from accusing us and cause Satan to be cast to earth by being faithful to spread the gospel. This will cause a war in heaven and force Satan to reveal his full wrath through the man of sin.

John146
Jan 28th 2009, 04:51 PM
We are in agreement.

I will take it a step further and say that I think He stops 'restraining' the son of perdition because of the falling away from the Truth by the church.I agree. I believe it relates directly to what is described later in the chapter.

2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The time will come when God will no longer restrain wickedness and contend with people and will just give people over to their wickedness and send them strong delusion. So, I believe it is His restraining influence through the Holy Spirit that will be taken away at that time. I agree with David Taylor that this is referring to Satan's little season. It makes no sense at all to think that it's saying the church will be taken away or that the Holy Spirit would be taken away. How could anyone be saved if the Holy Spirit was taken away and who would tell people about Christ if the church was taken away?

Partaker of Christ
Jan 28th 2009, 08:35 PM
Isn't it true that this "Beast" is the same one that "ascends from the bottomless pit"?

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The bottomless pit would seem to be a prison of sort, with a locking mechanism that requires a key to open. So maybe his jailer, the "angel with the key to the bottomless pit", is the one that is restraining him now, and will be removed to allow his freedom?

Hi crush!

That is a good observation.

My thoughts were that he may be in the air (as with the prince of the air) and cast down to the earth, to be revealed.

Servant89
Feb 4th 2009, 11:38 PM
2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (the rapture is after, not before)
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (the day of Christ appears 5 times, in all 5 times is the church being presented to Christ unblameless, 1Tim 6:14; Phi 1:6,10; Phi 2:15-16; 1Cor 1:6-8; 1Thes 3:13; 1Thes 5:23; 2Pet 3:10-14 and here)
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (In KJV, the only one that withholdeth satan is Michael the arcangel (Dan 10:21). The one that fights satan mano-a-mano is Michael the arcangel (Jude 1:9; Rev 12:7).)
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Sequence of events according to 2Thes 2

1. falling away first (dark ages?)
2. restrainer is removed out of the way (Dan 12:1). The job of Michael is to protect Israel (Dan 12:1). Israel failed to exist as a nation, Michael was removed. If the antichrist cannot be revealed without a rapture first, 2Thes 2 is wrong. The day of Christ can not come until the man of sin is revealed first, it is not the other way around!
3. Heavens disappear (6th seal, Mat 24:21,29-31).
4. Last trumpet (time is no more, day of wrath) 7th trumpet = 7th seal = 7th vial, and there were voices, thunders, lightings, earthquake and hail on all three of them, which was rehearsed when God came down in Exo 19:16-18. The day of wrath = 7th seal = 7th trumpet
4. The coming of the Lord
5. Resurrection of the dead (the dead rise first, 1The 4:16-17). No one will resurrect until the heavens be no more (Job 14:12-14). No resurrection = no rapture.
5. Our gathering together with him (1Thes 4:16-17), the rapture.


Shalom

Teleiosis
Feb 5th 2009, 05:40 AM
Allow me to present a sequence-of-events which just focuses on 2Th 2:1-8


The rebellion occurs
Opposition and exaltation
The “one” removed from the midst
Setting himself up as God
The man of lawlessness revealed
Jesus comes
Our being gathering to Him

Dead in Christ
Those who are alive and are left

The man of lawlessness is undone
Now I can involve greater things eschatologically, but just focusing on this chapter, this is the sequence-of-events Paul lays out.

Mark

DaveS
Feb 5th 2009, 06:00 AM
I am one of those who think Paul is talking about the Holy Spirit. But I don't think Paul means to say that the Holy Spirit will be taken off the earth or that the Church will be raptured. I think he simply means this. Whatever the Holy Spirit is doing to keep the man of lawlessness from coming to power, he will stop doing that. It doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit has to leave. It simply means that the Holy Spirit will not prevent the man of lawlessness from showing up anymore. I'm sure the Holy Spirit will still be around to help Christians etc.

Took the words right out of my mouth, Bro. The Holy Spirit doesn't have to be "taken away" to be "taken out of the way".

Partaker of Christ
Feb 5th 2009, 02:35 PM
Took the words right out of my mouth, Bro. The Holy Spirit doesn't have to be "taken away" to be "taken out of the way".

The only problem (if it is a problem) I have with this is: Can the Holy Spirit be 'taken out of the way' I mean is this 'passive' and not 'middle voice'. In the the Holy Spirit removed Himself out of the way.

Teleiosis
Feb 5th 2009, 03:31 PM
We don't know who Paul is talking about. That information is lost. The Thessalonians knew because Paul taught them personally on this subject. Now they may have not made good sense of it because they evidently got the message wrong which necessitated this second letter telling them that the Day of the Lord had not come and not to worry.

The good news is that in explaning it to them, we get another sequence-of-events tied to the revelation of the man of lawlessness and Paul completes what Jesus said that this would happen IN the Temple.

As to the "one," by using both the neuter and male verbs - one thing we can say is that the "one" is NOT the Church - which is female.

That should be plain enough from Paul's sequence-of-events whereby the Church is not "removed" (gathered) until the Day of the Lord.

I don't personally think the "one" is the Holy Spirit, but whoever it is, whether angelic or some other spiritual entity: the "one" shows that God is in control over the timing of the rise of the anti-Christ.

Mark

My heart's Desire
Feb 5th 2009, 08:22 PM
Pretrib here :) I believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit's influence through the Church that holds back the evil. When the Church is raptured, alot of godly influence leaves this place and evil will abound. I think the Holy Spirit will then resume reaching people as He did in the O.T. The reason I think this is because the time of Jacob's trouble is when God once again deals with the remnant of Israel.

Teleiosis
Feb 5th 2009, 09:47 PM
Paul puts the rise of rebellion before the man of lawlessness is revealed and only after that does Jesus come and gather us up.

After we are gathered up, then the undoing of the man of lawlessness happens.

That is the sequence-of-events that Paul gives us in 2Th 2:1-8; that is not Pre-Trib...

My heart's Desire
Feb 6th 2009, 02:39 AM
That is the sequence-of-events that Paul gives us in 2Th 2:1-8; that is not Pre-Trib...
Pre Wrath then? IYO? midtrib?

TEITZY
Feb 6th 2009, 02:50 AM
An old post that reiterates what others have already said about the removal of restraint rather than the Restrainer Himself.

Personally I don't think this event is necessarily linked with the removal of the Church either. The "falling away" in verse 3 is clearly apostasy, not the rapture. Verse 4 actually tells us what 'the' apostasy is (funny that :rolleyes:).



It is the restraining influence of the Spirit on evil that is removed, rather than the Restrainer Himself. Genesis 6:3 indicates that God's Spirit is continually 'striving' with men against evil, but God's patience does have a limit. So just prior to Christ's return this restraint will be removed and allow satan and his demons to run rampant on the earth, while the moral depravity of unregenerate men will also reach a new low and then judgment will come.

In 2 Thess 2:7 the Greek does not have to mean a literal removal (in the spatial or physical sense) of the Restrainer, but can mean a moving or stepping aside. The NLT translation brings this thought out:

For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.

Several other translations, including formal equivalents like the ESV, also give the thought that "he is out of the way" rather than physically "taken away" or removed.

This of course means that the Spirit can still be present (as He has always been since He is omni-present) on the earth and performing His role of regeneration during the Tribulation period.



Cheers
Leigh

My heart's Desire
Feb 6th 2009, 02:56 AM
Actually I base my pretrib belief on more than just the verses given. For one, the Church (believers) are no longer under threat of judgment by Christ. That judgment was made at the Cross. We are no longer under His condemnation, judgment or Wrath. In Revelation 5, 6. the Book of judgment on all those who dwell on the earth is opened by the Lamb (Christ). The judgments affect all those who live on the earth. Since the Church is not subject to all that then the Church has got to be off the earth before that time.

rom826
Feb 6th 2009, 04:38 AM
Actually I base my pretrib belief on more than just the verses given. For one, the Church (believers) are no longer under threat of judgment by Christ. That judgment was made at the Cross. We are no longer under His condemnation, judgment or Wrath. In Revelation 5, 6. the Book of judgment on all those who dwell on the earth is opened by the Lamb (Christ). The judgments affect all those who live on the earth. Since the Church is not subject to all that then the Church has got to be off the earth before that time.

Where does it say in Rom 5,6 that the book which is opened is a book of judgement?

Teleiosis
Feb 6th 2009, 05:05 AM
Pre Wrath then? IYO? midtrib?

Well it fits my Pre-Wrath position, but then one of the things which convinced me of the Pre-Wrath Rapture was 2Th 2; along with the Olivet Discourse, the Seal chronology of Rev ch 4-11, and the Harvest of Rev ch 13-16.

I did not like the idea of having to go through the Tribulation. I was very depressed for quite some time some years ago when I came to this conclusion, but now I am at peace with it. It is God's plan to hand us over so that in our weakness His power is made perfect (2Co 12:9).

Amos_with_goats
Feb 6th 2009, 05:11 AM
.....I did not like the idea of having to go through the Tribulation. I was very depressed for quite some time some years ago when I came to this conclusion, but now I am at peace with it. It is God's plan to hand us over so that in our weakness His power is made perfect (2Co 12:9).

Absolutely. I think that was one of the things that made me so uncomfortable with pre-trib.... it was so inconsistent with the rest of scripture. The greatest honor we have is to suffer, and the greatest demonstration of grace is given when this happens.

The peace I received once I saw the Lord's return post-trib is the knowledge that there is nothing that Christ is not sufficient for.

bagofseed
Feb 6th 2009, 08:31 AM
Translaters notes from the ESV

tn Grk “the one who restrains.” This gives a puzzling contrast to the impersonal phrase in v. 6 (“the thing that restrains”). The restraint can be spoken of as a force or as a person. Some have taken this to mean the Roman Empire in particular or human government in general, since these are forces that can also be seen embodied in a person, the emperor or governing head. But apocalyptic texts like Revelation and Daniel portray human government of the end times as under Satanic control, not holding back his influence. Also the power to hold back Satanic forces can only come from God. So others understand this restraint to be some force from God: the preaching of the gospel or the working of the Holy Spirit through God’s people.

DurbanDude
Feb 6th 2009, 08:45 AM
Translaters notes from the ESV

tn Grk “the one who restrains.” This gives a puzzling contrast to the impersonal phrase in v. 6 (“the thing that restrains”). The restraint can be spoken of as a force or as a person. Some have taken this to mean the Roman Empire in particular or human government in general, since these are forces that can also be seen embodied in a person, the emperor or governing head. But apocalyptic texts like Revelation and Daniel portray human government of the end times as under Satanic control, not holding back his influence. Also the power to hold back Satanic forces can only come from God. So others understand this restraint to be some force from God: the preaching of the gospel or the working of the Holy Spirit through God’s people.

Referring to the section that I highlighted, like I said in an earlier post, Rev 12 describes it differerently.

In Rev 12 Satan is fighting to STAY in heaven , because he knows that when he is cast to earth, his time will be short. Satan has to be removed from heaven before Satan's full wrath comes to earth. So Satan does in fact hold back his Satanic forces because he doesn't want his time to be short here on earth. Rev 12 says that once he is cast to earth, there is MORE wrath, and he persecutes for 3.5 years, which is the same period of dominion of the antichrist.

Satan fits the description of the restrainer well, our jobis to hasten the end through preaching the gospel, yet Satan is delaying it. As Christians we often live in fear of the end, yet we should be hastening it, and rejoicing as events draw to a close.

keyboard4eva
Feb 6th 2009, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by JesusMySaviour
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

Matthew
5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
We are the ones representing Christ on earth we are His ambassadors.The Holy spirit in us empowers and enegizes us for exploits on the earth.
During the great tribulation,the believers then will have to be saved by their own blood.
Revelation6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
It's my prayer that we will make in in rapture.

My heart's Desire
Feb 6th 2009, 06:50 PM
Where does it say in Rom 5,6 that the book which is opened is a book of judgement?
Revelation, not Romans

rom826
Feb 6th 2009, 07:19 PM
Revelation, not Romans

I meant to say Revelation. sorry about that. Where in Rev 5,6 does it say that the book being opened is a book of judgement?

My heart's Desire
Feb 7th 2009, 04:24 AM
I meant to say Revelation. sorry about that. Where in Rev 5,6 does it say that the book being opened is a book of judgement?
If Christ opens the Book that brings forth the antichrist, broken peace, famine and death, then it looks like judgment to me. After which in 6:16 they begged the rocks to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. That pretty much looks like judgment to me. It appears to be a far cry from blessing.

Teleiosis
Feb 7th 2009, 11:49 AM
Except that according to Zechariah 6:5, the first four horsemen are spirits which go to work in the world, ostensibly preparing it for the one 'seven.'

And the wicked hiding in caves were told by an angel in Rev 14:7 before the Harvest on the Day of the Lord (sixth Seal in the Seal chronology) that God was coming to punish them.

Remember Rev 7:3 - no real harm has come yet with the first six Seals. It is only after the seventh Seal is broken that the Scroll can be opened.

billy-brown 2
Feb 8th 2009, 04:12 AM
Consider the following passage from the OP:

6 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-6.htm) And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

This passage seems to imply that the Thessalonians knew who the "restrainer" was.

So, how did the Thessalonians know who the "restrainer" was? Did the Apostle Pall tell them?

(Does anyone know the answer to this?)

Teleiosis
Feb 8th 2009, 05:00 AM
2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
Paul told them.

There are things which were known which we don't know, like who the "one" is.

My heart's Desire
Feb 8th 2009, 07:33 PM
Consider the following passage from the OP:

6 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-6.htm) And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

This passage seems to imply that the Thessalonians knew who the "restrainer" was.

So, how did the Thessalonians know who the "restrainer" was? Did the Apostle Pall tell them?

(Does anyone know the answer to this?) I can't help but answer this from a purely human perspective. Think of this, evil and lawlessness has always been a part of the world system, but to prevent it from all out taking over of everything and everyone someone somewhere has had the goodness, kindness and integrity to prevent things from getting out of hand. Where evil is, there has always been something good to combat it. Where crime has happened the Law also restrains to keep another from happening. For those who have been oppressed there is someone against oppression.
What is the opposite of lawlessness, is it not the Law? The opposite of evil, is it not good?
When all of what is good, noble and kind has been taken out of the way, the Lawlessness has full reign with NOTHING to stop it. There is no longer ANY Good to prevent it.

Who are those who restrains evil but those who know God's Law?
Who are those Who have the LOVE of Christ that restrains evil. Is it not the Church? God says hearts are deceitful who can know it? Those who know Christ are no longer deceived for they have the truth.
Sure there are always unbelievers who fight for right and are kind, loving etc, but if the Church is gone and evil prevails will lawlessness not enter the unregenerated hearts of even those who think themselves good with the deceitfulness of their unregenerated hearts. They will fall in with the evil of that day.
If the Church has been rapture lawlessness will no longer be restrained.
Sure there are other scenios, but the only way lawlessness can take over is if all that is good, truly good is removed from the earth. The Word says there is NONE that is good. Only those made a new creature in Christ could be considered as good and that is only b/c of His righteousness and not ours.
And yes, I can be as wrong as the next person, but that's the angle I've come up with. :)

Partaker of Christ
Feb 8th 2009, 11:00 PM
Referring to the section that I highlighted, like I said in an earlier post, Rev 12 describes it differerently.

In Rev 12 Satan is fighting to STAY in heaven , because he knows that when he is cast to earth, his time will be short. Satan has to be removed from heaven before Satan's full wrath comes to earth. So Satan does in fact hold back his Satanic forces because he doesn't want his time to be short here on earth. Rev 12 says that once he is cast to earth, there is MORE wrath, and he persecutes for 3.5 years, which is the same period of dominion of the antichrist.

Satan fits the description of the restrainer well, our jobis to hasten the end through preaching the gospel, yet Satan is delaying it. As Christians we often live in fear of the end, yet we should be hastening it, and rejoicing as events draw to a close.

Hi DurbanDude!
The more I dwell on this, the more I tend to be agreeing with you.

billy-brown 2
Feb 9th 2009, 12:12 AM
2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
Paul told them.

There are things which were known which we don't know, like who the "one" is.


So Paul told the Thessalonians "these things"--and this means the "restrainer" had to be "around" during the lifetime of the Thessalonians--and the Apostle Paul.

It seems to me that the books of Ist and IInd Thessalonians were written around 51-52 A.D. Is this true?

Interesting . . .

II Thess. 2:6

6 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-6.htm) And you . . . know . . . what restrains him (the man of lawlessness) . . . now . . . , so that in his time he (the man of lawlessness) will be revealed.

Teleiosis
Feb 9th 2009, 12:29 AM
So Paul told the Thessalonians "these things"--and this means the "restrainer" had to be "around" during the lifetime of the Thessalonians--and the Apostle Paul.


I think you have a non-sequitur.

Just because Paul told them who the "one" was - does not mean one, that the "one" was necessarily around then (but it does not preclude that) or that two, by the use of "now" that Paul meant this was a present condition in the sixth decade A.D.

DurbanDude
Feb 9th 2009, 06:07 AM
Hi DurbanDude!
The more I dwell on this, the more I tend to be agreeing with you.

Thanks PoC, the idea just hit me one day while I was reading Rev 12.

Wintermute
Feb 10th 2009, 07:01 AM
Somebody might like this:

From Tertullian On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 24

Hence it is that the Holy Ghost, in His greatness, foreseeing clearly all such interpretations as these, suggests (to the apostle), in this very epistle of his to the Thessalonians, as follows: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, there is no necessity for my writing unto you. For ye yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, `Peace, 'and `All things are safe, 'then sudden destruction shall come upon them."Again, in the second epistle he addresses them with even greater earnestness: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word," that is, the word of false prophets, "or by letter," that is, the letter of false apostles, "as if from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come, unless indeed there first come a falling away," he means indeed of this present empire, "and that man of sin be revealed," that is to say, Antichrist, "the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or religion; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, affirming that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was with you, I used to tell you these things? And now ye know what detaineth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."

billy-brown 2
Feb 10th 2009, 11:53 PM
I think you have a non-sequitur.

Just because Paul told them who the "one" was - does not mean one, that the "one" was necessarily around then (but it does not preclude that) or that two, by the use of "now" that Paul meant this was a present condition in the sixth decade A.D.

Perhaps I am missing something .. . .

The Apostle Paul told the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord had not come, and "apostasia" (apostasy . . . or rebellion . . . or departure--however the Greek transliteration "apostasia" is interpreted by the saints in the appropriate verse) and the man of lawlessness must precede the Day of the Lord.

So far, so good.

Then, Paul indicates that the Thessalonians knew what was then ( . . . now) withholding the man of lawlessness.

Now, the modern-day Christian cannot ask Paul directly what was withholding the man of lawlessness (Paul has passed away over 2000 years ago).

But the Thessalonians knew--and they knew "then"--all because "Paul told them"--this is a strange puzzle.

How is it that the Christians of Thessalonica could know who (or what) the "restrainer" is (was)?

Someone has to figure this out, it seems to me . . .

Maybe we could ask Paul . . .?

Joyfulee
Feb 11th 2009, 05:32 AM
6- "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7- "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8- And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

9- Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,..."


Verse 6 is telling us what or "who" is withholding the return or coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (see verses 1-2)

Two things must/will happen before that day.

1. A falling away first
2. Man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

There is one other reference to a "son of perdition" in the Bible and that is Judas Iscariot. Satan entered Judas. Just as Satan will enter the Antichrist.

So who is withholding Jesus' return? The Antichrist. God's plans will unfold according to God's plans. Jesus cannot return until it is time for Him to return. The Antichrist cannot set himself up in the temple until it is time for him to do so. The former will take place after the latter.

On to verse 7 The "mystery of iniquity" or secret contempt or violation of law, or lawlessness is the same spirit that works in all "antichrists." This verse is telling us that at that time, it was already at work, as it still is today.

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

Now, God allows (lets) this to be so. It will continue to be allowed (letteth), until God removes the Antichrist, he be taken out of the way) from the world.

Verse 8 When the time is according to God's plans, right before Jesus comes, that "Wicked be revealed." (Antichrist)

Verse 9 Is the Antichrist whose coming is after the working of Satan. Remember, he is called the "son of perdition" as was Judas, and Satan entered his physical body.

Veretax
Feb 11th 2009, 01:51 PM
Somebody might like this:

From Tertullian On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 24

Hence it is that the Holy Ghost, in His greatness, foreseeing clearly all such interpretations as these, suggests (to the apostle), in this very epistle of his to the Thessalonians, as follows: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, there is no necessity for my writing unto you. For ye yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, `Peace, 'and `All things are safe, 'then sudden destruction shall come upon them."Again, in the second epistle he addresses them with even greater earnestness: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word," that is, the word of false prophets, "or by letter," that is, the letter of false apostles, "as if from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come, unless indeed there first come a falling away," he means indeed of this present empire, "and that man of sin be revealed," that is to say, Antichrist, "the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or religion; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, affirming that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was with you, I used to tell you these things? And now ye know what detaineth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."

While that is interesting, you'll have to forgive me but who is Tertullian?

iruntherace4Him
Feb 11th 2009, 03:39 PM
I agree with you BroRog. Thanks for making it plan for me.

divaD
Feb 11th 2009, 04:26 PM
Verse 6 is telling us what or "who" is withholding the return or coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (see verses 1-2)


Exactly! Finally..someone that understands. Even tho I believe I agree with you here, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, I can't say that I'm in full agreement with the remainder of your post tho. I guess I need to look at what you wrote a little closer.

The main subject is the return of Christ. But what is withholding the return of Christ? Verses 3 and 4. These verses must come to pass before Christ can return. What happens when Christ returns? He destroys that Wicked with the brightness of his coming. How is He supposed to accomplish this if He comes before verses 3 and 4 are fulilled?

Verse 6 should be interpreted to say:

6 And now ye know what withholdeth(the return of Christ) that he(the son of perdition) might be revealed in his time

Joyfulee
Feb 11th 2009, 05:22 PM
Exactly! Finally..someone that understands. Even tho I believe I agree with you here, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, I can't say that I'm in full agreement with the remainder of your post tho. I guess I need to look at what you wrote a little closer.

The main subject is the return of Christ. But what is withholding the return of Christ? Verses 3 and 4. These verses must come to pass before Christ can return. What happens when Christ returns? He destroys that Wicked with the brightness of his coming. How is He supposed to accomplish this if He comes before verses 3 and 4 are fulilled?

Verse 6 should be interpreted to say:

6 And now ye know what withholdeth(the return of Christ) that he(the son of perdition) might be revealed in his time

As you restated verse 6 above is how I see it.

Jesus does not come before these things happen.

These verses are the verses that convinced me that there is no pretrib rapture. The earliest possible coming would be midtrib, when the antichrist sits himself in the temple, proclaiming himself to be god.

billy-brown 2
Feb 11th 2009, 08:51 PM
As you restated verse 6 above is how I see it.

Jesus does not come before these things happen.

These verses are the verses that convinced me that there is no pretrib rapture. The earliest possible coming would be midtrib, when the antichrist sits himself in the temple, proclaiming himself to be god.

Hi Joyfulee,

I agree with you that there is no "pretrib "rapture".

Your reading of the issues in the OP is as follows (correct me if I am in error on any of this):

I. The return of our Lord Jesus Christ comes after:
a) the apostasy, and
b) the revealing of the man of lawlessness--the son of destruction.

II. The 4 verses giving us the facts of I.) above are II Thess. 2:1-4.

III. In verse 5, we see that Paul reminds the Thessalonians that he (Paul) told
them (the Thessalonians) all of the things of I.)--plus additional info on the man of lawlessness--while he (Paul) was with them.

IV. Verse 6 of this synthesis has the phrase " . . . restrains him now, . . ." and you affirm that

"the restrainer is restraining Christ . . .".

V.Verse 6 of this synthesis has the phrase " . . . restrains him now, . . ." and you affirm that

"the restrainer is restraining the man of lawlessness . . ."

as well.

VI. So, IV., and V. above reveal an interesting development. Because if you affirm IV. and V. as true for you, then I think you are saying that:

A) Christ comes after the man of lawlessness is revealed.

B) The man of lawlessness is restrained, so Christ can not come now.

C) Therefore, the "restrainer" is "restraining" Christ and the man of lawlessness--because Christ can not come until after the "man of lawlessness" is revealed.

If this is what you are saying, let me know . . .

Below is a reproduction of the context of the OP passage.

II Thess 2:1-13

1 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-1.htm) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

2 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-3.htm) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-5.htm) Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-6.htm) And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

8 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm) Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-9.htm) that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

10 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-10.htm) and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-11.htm) For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

12 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-12.htm) in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

13 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-13.htm) But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Joyfulee
Feb 11th 2009, 09:45 PM
Hi Joyfulee,

I agree with you that there is no "pretrib "rapture".

Your reading of the issues in the OP is as follows (correct me if I am in error on any of this):

I. The return of our Lord Jesus Christ comes after:
a) the apostasy, and
b) the revealing of the man of lawlessness--the son of destruction.

II. The 4 verses giving us the facts of I.) above are II Thess. 2:1-4.

Yes


III. In verse 5, we see that Paul reminds the Thessalonians that he (Paul) told
them (the Thessalonians) all of the things of I.)--plus additional info on the man of lawlessness--while he (Paul) was with them.

Yes

IV. Verse 6 of this synthesis has the phrase " . . . restrains him now, . . ." and you affirm that

"the restrainer is restraining Christ . . .".

KJ uses the word "witholdeth," but it doesn't change the meaning. God is the one who is in absolute control of all things. It is God's plans that are being fulfilled. They will be fulfilled according to His timing. In all actuality, it is God who is doing the restraining, or witholding of Jesus' coming. Remember, Jesus Himself doesn't even know the time. So yes, the "restrainer is restraining Christ."

V.Verse 6 of this synthesis has the phrase " . . . restrains him now, . . ." and you affirm that

"the restrainer is restraining the man of lawlessness . . ."

as well.

6- "And now you know what witholdeth (the coming of Christ) that he (the Antichrist) might be revealed in his time."

God has an appointed time for the Antichrist to be revealed. (verse 8)

Just as He has an appointed time for Jesus to come again.

VI. So, IV., and V. above reveal an interesting development. Because if you affirm IV. and V. as true for you, then I think you are saying that:

A) Christ comes after the man of lawlessness is revealed.

B) The man of lawlessness is restrained, so Christ can not come now.

C) Therefore, the "restrainer" is "restraining" Christ and the man of lawlessness--because Christ can not come until after the "man of lawlessness" is revealed.

Yes. It is all according to God's plans and God's timetable. It is God who is ultimately the "restrainer," or the "witholder." I reiterate, Jesus does not know the time of His own coming.

"But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

If this is what you are saying, let me know . . .

I hope I've made my understanding clear.


Below is a reproduction of the context of the OP passage.

II Thess 2:1-13

1 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-1.htm) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

2 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-3.htm) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-5.htm) Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-6.htm) And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

8 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm) Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-9.htm) that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

10 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-10.htm) and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-11.htm) For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

12 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-12.htm) in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

13 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-13.htm) But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

I have spent many, many hours in prayer over these verses through the years. All that I've read and heard about pretrib beliefs never sat right in my spirit, because I didn't "see" it with the Scripture verses used to support that position. Yet, these particular verses kept calling me back, again and again.

It is now my understanding that there cannot be a pretrib rapture.

Blessings!

billy-brown 2
Feb 11th 2009, 11:57 PM
I have spent many, many hours in prayer over these verses through the years. All that I've read and heard about pretrib beliefs never sat right in my spirit, because I didn't "see" it with the Scripture verses used to support that position. Yet, these particular verses kept calling me back, again and again.

It is now my understanding that there cannot be a pretrib rapture.

Blessings!


Blessings to you also . . . but your response brings up more questions still.

As will notice, my questions are not designed to disagree with you at all concerning your assertion apropos the "pretrib" rapture (we both agree that there is no such thing in the scripture . . .).

Now, you have affirmed the following (which I repeat below from the last post):

++++++++++++++++++
V.Verse 6 of this synthesis has the phrase " . . . restrains him now, . . ." and you affirm that

"the restrainer is restraining the man of lawlessness . . ."

as well.

6- "And now you know what witholdeth (the coming of Christ) that he (the Antichrist) might be revealed in his time."

God has an appointed time for the Antichrist to be revealed. (verse 8)

Just as He has an appointed time for Jesus to come again.

++++++++++++++++++


Now, here are the verses again in II Thess. 2:3-8a:

3 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-3.htm) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come (The Day of the Lord) unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-5.htm) Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? (That is, the things of verses 1-4 as you have rightly indicated.)

6 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-6.htm) And you (the Thessalonians) know what restrains him (the lawless "one") now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work (during the time of the Thessalonians and Paul); only he who now restrains (the restrainer is restraining the lawless "one") will do so until he (the restrainer) is taken out of the way.

8 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm) Then that lawless one will be revealed . . .

Now apparently, there are three (3) entities who absolutely know what (who?) is "restraining" the man of lawlessness according to this passage of the scripture:

A) God (He is "omniscient"--of course!)
B) Paul (because God "told him"--as I suppose . . . II Thess. 2:5b indicates that Paul was " . . . telling you [the Thessalonians] these things . . ." )
C) The Thessalonians (because Paul told them--I suppose after God told Paul by the Spirit of God . . .)

So, are you aware of any Bible record of someone else who knew the identity of "the restrainer?"

Indeed, this is amazing to me.

All of the Great Men of God of the New Testament--Peter, Stephen, James, Jesus (!), Phillip, John, Jude and others--provide similar themes of Christian life; themes that all saints everywhere need to know.

But in the passage context of the OP, ONLY the Thessalonians "know"--and Paul is the only person who "told them"--by the Spirit of God--about the "restrainer".

Why did our God leave the other saints out on this? (Did our God leave the rest of the saints out on this?)

Is not the return of the Lord marked with the need for all saints to know when the man of lawlessness is to be revealed--to know who the restrainer is--to know when "the restrainer" would be "taken out of the way?"

Oh, if I could have been a "fly on the wall" amongst the Thessalonians in Northern Greece in the 1st century and heard what Paul taught on this . . .

Now, I know you have mentioned that "ultimately God is the 'restrainer'" (see below):

++++++++++++++++++

VI. So, IV., and V. above reveal an interesting development. Because if you affirm IV. and V. as true for you, then I think you are saying that:

A) Christ comes after the man of lawlessness is revealed.

B) The man of lawlessness is restrained, so Christ can not come now.

C) Therefore, the "restrainer" is "restraining" Christ and the man of lawlessness--because Christ can not come until after the "man of lawlessness" is revealed.

Yes. It is all according to God's plans and God's timetable. It is God who is ultimately the "restrainer," or the "withholder." I reiterate, Jesus does not know the time of His own coming.

"But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

If this is what you are saying, let me know . . .

I hope I've made my understanding clear.

++++++++++++++++++


Now, your thoughts are quite logical, and very clear--of course, the "restrainer" is God ultimately.

But, are not some additional distinctives in order about the identity of the "restrainer"?

Let's look at verses 7 and 8a again:

7 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work (during the time of the Thessalonians and Paul); only he who now restrains (the restrainer is restraining the lawless "one") will do so until he (the restrainer) is taken out of the way.

8 (http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm) Then that lawless one will be revealed . . .

Will our God ever be "taken out of the way" at all--to reveal the man of lawlessness?

Does not the scripture request a bit more distinction as to identity of the "restrainer" (other than just "God")?

I know that Mark has rightly indicated the following:

++++++++++++++++++
We don't know who Paul is talking about. That information is lost. The Thessalonians knew because Paul taught them personally on this subject. Now they may have not made good sense of it because they evidently got the message wrong which necessitated this second letter telling them that the Day of the Lord had not come and not to worry.

The good news is that in explaining it to them, we get another sequence-of-events tied to the revelation of the man of lawlessness and Paul completes what Jesus said that this would happen IN the Temple.

As to the "one," by using both the neuter and male verbs - one thing we can say is that the "one" is NOT the Church - which is female.

That should be plain enough from Paul's sequence-of-events whereby the Church is not "removed" (gathered) until the Day of the Lord.

I don't personally think the "one" is the Holy Spirit, but whoever it is, whether angelic or some other spiritual entity: the "one" shows that God is in control over the timing of the rise of the anti-Christ.

Mark

++++++++++++++++++

I hope I have asked some appropriate questions . . .

Please help me understand some answers in this (as a fellow "learner" of Christ . . .).

Joyfulee
Feb 12th 2009, 04:12 AM
I hope I have asked some appropriate questions . . .

Please help me understand some answers in this (as a fellow "learner" of Christ . . .).

It appears that verses 6 & 7 are the ones you're trying to get a better understanding of.

First, I'm going to quote once again from the KJ.

6 "And now ye know what witholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

What does Paul mean? Verse 6 is referring back to the previous verses. He explained what needed to happen BEFORE the coming of our Lord in verses 3 & 4. Then in verse 5 he is reminding them that he already told them these things before. What things? Verses 3 & 4. Who might "be revealed in his time?" The Antichrist. Taking you back to verses 3 & 4 again. "What witholdeth" is referring to the coming of our Lord.

So if I paraphrase verse 6 it might say: And now you know what witholds the coming of Christ, that the Antichrist might be revealed in his time.

KJ 7- "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The mystery of iniquity is lawlessness, or antichrist; which was working in their day, as it still is in ours. Who allows iniquity? Only God can allow this. God continues to allow iniquity to work... Until...he (who?) is taken out of the way? Antichrist.

"When" will "he" be taken out of the way? In the very next verse (8.) THEN shall that Wicked be revealed and the Lord will consume him.

I hope this helps somewhat. It is my understanding of those verses.

Blessings!

billy-brown 2
Feb 12th 2009, 11:11 AM
It appears that verses 6 & 7 are the ones you're trying to get a better understanding of.
:pp
First, I'm going to quote once again from the KJ.

6 "And now ye know what witholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

What does Paul mean? Verse 6 is referring back to the previous verses. He explained what needed to happen BEFORE the coming of our Lord in verses 3 & 4. Then in verse 5 he is reminding them that he already told them these things before. What things? Verses 3 & 4. Who might "be revealed in his time?" The Antichrist. Taking you back to verses 3 & 4 again. "What witholdeth" is referring to the coming of our Lord.

So if I paraphrase verse 6 it might say: And now you know what withholds the coming of Christ, that the Antichrist might be revealed in his time.

KJ 7- "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The mystery of iniquity is lawlessness, or antichrist; which was working in their day, as it still is in ours. Who allows iniquity? Only God can allow this. God continues to allow iniquity to work... Until...he (who?) is taken out of the way? Antichrist.

"When" will "he" be taken out of the way? In the very next verse (8.) THEN shall that Wicked be revealed and the Lord will consume him.

I hope this helps somewhat. It is my understanding of those verses.

Blessings!

Blessings to you also . . .:)

So your synthesis apropos verses 6-8 (the context of the OP) seems to be as follows:

A) Our God is "the restrainer" and is “withholding the return of Christ” so that the man of lawlessness can be revealed.

B) Our God is allowing lawlessness (this is antichrist) to proliferate until the Lord returns (as mentioned in verse 8 of the OP context) and “consumes lawlessness.”

Let me know if I got this right (I want to make sure that I understand exactly your thoughts).

Also, if there are “lurkers” who want to respond, please indicate if you understand what Joyfulee is saying in this wonderful discussion of some of the most cryptic of scriptures.

Joyfulee
Feb 12th 2009, 02:51 PM
Blessings to you also . . .:)

So your synthesis apropos verses 6-8 (the context of the OP) seems to be as follows:

A) Our God is "the restrainer" and is “withholding the return of Christ” so that the man of lawlessness can be revealed.

B) Our God is allowing lawlessness (this is antichrist) to proliferate until the Lord returns (as mentioned in verse 8 of the OP context) and “consumes lawlessness.”

Let me know if I got this right (I want to make sure that I understand exactly your thoughts).


Also, if there are “lurkers” who want to respond, please indicate if you understand what Joyfulee is saying in this wonderful discussion of some of the most cryptic of scriptures.

Destroys that "Wicked," (verse 8) who is the Antichrist. Antichrist is "against Christ" or "lawless."

All "lawlessness" is not consumed, because our hearts are wicked and Satan still exists. Satan is the power working through the Antichrist.

Benaiah
Feb 15th 2009, 03:08 AM
Indeed the Early church fathers believed it was roman imperial power, vested in the Caesars that restrained the man of sin.

Consider this, the pax romana (Roman peace) restrained general lawlessness, and also no man of sin showing himself to be God would have been tolerated by the Caesars who brooked no rivals.

This was also the view of many of the reformers who viewed the papacy as the antichrist.

artm
Feb 15th 2009, 02:14 PM
The one who," restrains, Or Hinders " is the Church. The AntiChrist cannot appear until the Church is taken out of the way, By way of the Rapture.

The Church is a hindering force to the appearance of the AntiChrist.

It cannot be the Holy Spirit because the Bible says that there will be people saved during the Tribulation period, People cannot be saved without the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, The Bble says, " They cannot come except the Spirit draw them.

God bless

divaD
Feb 15th 2009, 03:35 PM
The one who," restrains, Or Hinders " is the Church. The AntiChrist cannot appear until the Church is taken out of the way,
By way of the Rapture.


If you look in the Greek, you should clearly be able to see that no one is being taking out of the way. The Greek tells us basically that one is arising out of the midst. Don't take my word for it, look it up in the Greek for yourself. The Greek words for 'taken' and 'way' do not lend support for your position, nor does your position agree with the overall context of this passage.

parsonsmom
Feb 15th 2009, 04:01 PM
[quote=Amos_with_goats;1960548]Ok, one more thing and then I will shut up for a few minutes...

Lets look at the passage in context. Here are the verses

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Three things stick out to me.


1.) Verse 3 clearly states that the Lord SHALL NOT RETURN until the son of perdition is reveled. Verse 7&8 tells us that "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall that Wicked be revealed..." So, if the Lord does not return until after the man of sin is reveled, then if the Holy Spirit were to be removed first then Christ would leave His Church without the Holy Spirit which He has promised not to do.


2.) The Holy Spirit, would be a Capital 'H' in he if it referred to Him. It is clearly lower case....
of course I know some do not hold scripture to be perfect and will argue with this.



3.) I can not remember what #3 was, so I will just post this and move on to something else... :D

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 8888888888888

POSTED BY PARSONSMOM.

PAUL, SILVANUS, Silas, and Timothy, to the church assembly of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One: Grace, unmerited favor be to you and heart peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One.

We ought and indeed are obligated, as those in debt, to give thanks, always to God for you, brethren, as is fitting, because your faith is growing exceedingly and the love of every one of you each toward the others is increasing and abounds. And this is a cause of our mentioning you with pride among the churches, assemblies of God for your steadfastness, your unflinching endurance and patience and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecutions and crushing distresses and afflictions under which you are holding up. This is positive proof of the just and right judgment of God to the end that you may be deemed deserving of His kingdom, a plain token of His fair verdict which designs that you should be made and
counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for the sake of which you are also suffering. It is a fair decision, since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with distress and affliction those who distress and afflict you, And to recompense you who are so distressed and afflicted, by granting you relief and rest along with us, your fellow sufferers when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, To deal out retribution, chastisement and vengeance upon those who do not know or perceive or become acquainted with God, and upon those who ignore and refuse to obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin, destruction and perdition and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, When He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, He will be made more glorious in His consecrated people, and He will be marveled at and admired in His glory reflected in all who have believed, who have adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Him, because our witnessing among you was confidently accepted and believed, and confirmed in your lives. With this in view we constantly pray for you, that our God may deem and count you worthy of your calling, and His every gracious purpose of goodness, and with power may complete in your every particular work of faith, faith which is that leaning of the whole human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness.
Thus may the name of our Lord Jesus Christ be glorified and become more glorious through and in you, and may you also be glorified in Him according to the grace, favor and blessing of our God, and the Lord Jesus Christ,
the Messiah, the Anointed One.

Respectfully, Parsonsmom

Lexicon of the Greek New Testament.

Teleiosis
Feb 15th 2009, 04:25 PM
The one who," restrains, Or Hinders " is the Church. The AntiChrist cannot appear until the Church is taken out of the way, By way of the Rapture.

The Church is a hindering force to the appearance of the AntiChrist.

No, that is not what Paul says.

1. Paul says the "one" (masculine or neuter - not feminine as petra is for the Church) is taken "out of the midst" (not off the earth).

2. THEN the man of lawlessness is revealed. That will definitely happen with the unveiling of the talking image of him in the Temple...

3. THEN the Day of Christ, or the Day of the Lord comes.

4. AND THEN we are caught up.

How many times would you have us be caught up? (Not to mention that being "taken out of the midst" is not the same kind of action.)

Mark

BroRog
Feb 15th 2009, 05:22 PM
There was a rich man who stood about 4'-5" but kept telling everyone that he was 7'-9". No one believed him of course. But one day he told his friends, "I will pay each of you a very large sum of money if you agree with me that I am as tall as I say." Some of his friends stopped being his friend after that, but some of them took the money. Soon the rich man began to pay others large sums of money to say that he was very tall. The more he paid the taller he got in their eyes. Rumor spread that this man actually did grow over three feet. But others didn't know for sure. But no one was willing to say the truth because they liked getting his money.

parsonsmom
Feb 15th 2009, 07:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POSTED BY PARSONSMOM

PAUL, SILVANUS Silas, and Timothy, to the church assembly of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One):
Grace, unmerited favor be to you and heart peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One. We ought and indeed are obligated, as those in debt to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, as is fitting, because your faith is growing exceedingly and the love of every one of you each toward the others is increasing and abounds. And this is a cause of our mentioning you with pride among the churches, assemblies of God for your steadfastness, your unflinching endurance and patience, and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecutions and crushing distresses and afflictions under which you are holding up. This is positive proof of the just and right judgment of God to the end that you may be deemed deserving of His kingdom, a plain token of His fair verdict which designs that you should be made and counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for the sake of which you are also suffering.
It is a fair decision since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with distress and affliction those who distress and afflict you, And to recompense you who are so distressed and afflicted by granting you relief and rest along with us your fellow sufferers, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, To deal out retribution, chastisement and vengeance upon those who do not know or perceive or become acquainted with God, and upon those who ignore and refuse to obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin, destruction and perdition and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,When He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, He will be made more glorious in His consecrated people, and He will be marveled at and admired in His glory reflected in all who have believed, who have adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Him, because our witnessing among you was confidently accepted and believed and confirmed in your lives. With this in view we constantly pray for you, that our God may deem and count you worthy of your calling and His every gracious purpose of goodness, and with power may complete in your every particular work of faith, faith which is that leaning of the whole human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness.
Thus may the name of our Lord Jesus Christ be glorified and become more glorious through and in you, and may you also be glorified in Him according to the grace, favor and blessing of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ,
the Messiah, the Anointed One.
Respecfully.Parsonsmom




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

artm
Feb 17th 2009, 02:09 AM
DivaD, You are wrong. 2-Thess deals with the Rapture of the Church, and the appearing of the AntiChrist.

While the Antichrist is alive somewhere on Earth, He cannot take on his role untill the Church has been removed from Earth, That takes place at the Rapture.

The Church is the Hindering force against the antichrist. The true Church is the light and salt of the Earth, It is what preserves the earth from total corruption, Once it is removed there is then nothing to keep the antichrist from doing what he is ordained to do according to Scripture.

Joyfulee
Feb 17th 2009, 02:31 AM
DivaD, You are wrong. 2-Thess deals with the Rapture of the Church, and the appearing of the AntiChrist.

While the Antichrist is alive somewhere on Earth, He cannot take on his role untill the Church has been removed from Earth, That takes place at the Rapture.

The Church is the Hindering force against the antichrist. The true Church is the light and salt of the Earth, It is what preserves the earth from total corruption, Once it is removed there is then nothing to keep the antichrist from doing what he is ordained to do according to Scripture.

I do not think that God's Word teaches/reveals anything of the kind. For one thing, the "church" is only the church because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within it's members. Even if the "church" was gone, that does not necessarily imply that the Holy Spirit is gone.

Would you show us, using God's Word, how you came to that understanding?

Nihil Obstat
Feb 21st 2009, 04:04 PM
artm, do you believe in a reverse of Pentecost when the church is raptured before the tribulation? Also, would you comment on Teleiosis' post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1981495&postcount=62), as the point he made was amazingly devastating to your position? Thanks - Astro

Dragonfighter1
Feb 21st 2009, 04:09 PM
DivaD, You are wrong. 2-Thess deals with the Rapture of the Church, and the appearing of the AntiChrist.

While the Antichrist is alive somewhere on Earth, He cannot take on his role untill the Church has been removed from Earth, That takes place at the Rapture.

The Church is the Hindering force against the antichrist. The true Church is the light and salt of the Earth, It is what preserves the earth from total corruption, Once it is removed there is then nothing to keep the antichrist from doing what he is ordained to do according to Scripture.
No it doesn't. No it isn't.
Please explain how you came to that conclusion.
Thanks
DF

shootingdead
Feb 21st 2009, 09:35 PM
Also, if there are “lurkers” who want to respond, please indicate if you understand what Joyfulee is saying in this wonderful discussion of some of the most cryptic of scriptures.i understand it. please can i urge everyone to read and re-read Joyfulee's first post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1977243&postcount=47) until they understand it, it really is the answer.

tfcrew
Jul 22nd 2009, 12:23 PM
OK I re-read that first post [joyfulee] but something still doesn't make sense there..


Now, God allows (lets) this to be so. It will continue to be allowed (letteth), until God removes the Antichrist, he be taken out of the way) from the world.


Anti-christ is the one taken out of the way?
But vs 8 states that after 'he who lets is taken out of the way'...'then the Wicked One will be revealed'...
To me the poster is saying that after anti-christ is removed then anti-christ will be revealed.
Another post earlier on the 1st page said that God is the restrainer.
However I wondered ..who could 'remove' God?
I don't have all the answers.. but in 68 posts, didn't see any that held water.
I do think the falling away is occuring now. The days of Noah that Jesus spoke of. Violence and turmoil increasing exponentially.

notuptome
Jul 22nd 2009, 03:00 PM
i understand it. please can i urge everyone to read and re-read Joyfulee's first post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1977243&postcount=47) until they understand it, it really is the answer.
I am a pre-tribber and believe that the Holy Spirit is going with the church in the rapture in the sense that His ministry will change. The spirit of antichrist will cause strong delusion to come on men after the Holy Spirit returns to Christ in heaven. The Holy Spirit is here in the hearts of believers during the church age. The Holy Spirit will resume His ministry to the Jews after the church age is closed at the rapture.

The tribulation saints will come from all kindred, tribes, and tongues. The evangelism will come from the Jews who are God's elect. The Holy Spirit will minister through the Jews much as He did before Christ came to the earth. Tribulation events all center on the Jews and Jerusalem not on Gentiles and the church.

It is the knowledge of the True Christ in the church and witnessed by the Holy Spirit that keeps the spirit of antichrist from ascending and deceiving the whole world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

John146
Jul 22nd 2009, 03:40 PM
I am a pre-tribber and believe that the Holy Spirit is going with the church in the rapture in the sense that His ministry will change. The spirit of antichrist will cause strong delusion to come on men after the Holy Spirit returns to Christ in heaven. The Holy Spirit is here in the hearts of believers during the church age. The Holy Spirit will resume His ministry to the Jews after the church age is closed at the rapture.

The tribulation saints will come from all kindred, tribes, and tongues. The evangelism will come from the Jews who are God's elect. The Holy Spirit will minister through the Jews much as He did before Christ came to the earth. Tribulation events all center on the Jews and Jerusalem not on Gentiles and the church.

It is the knowledge of the True Christ in the church and witnessed by the Holy Spirit that keeps the spirit of antichrist from ascending and deceiving the whole world.

For the cause of Christ
RogerWhere does scripture speak of a "church age"?

David Taylor
Jul 22nd 2009, 04:13 PM
I am a pre-tribber and believe that the Holy Spirit is going with the church in the rapture in the sense that His ministry will change. The spirit of antichrist will cause strong delusion to come on men after the Holy Spirit returns to Christ in heaven. The Holy Spirit is here in the hearts of believers during the church age.


The Holy Spirit will be in the hearts of believers in any age now, or future.

If the Holy Spirit isn't in the hearts of believers, then they do not belong to Christ at all...and the endtime period is filled with many Christians thoughout it.

Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

This verse makes it clear, there can be no believers during the endtimes, (regardless of whether you call them Christians, or trib-saints, or believers, or whatever....) unless they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Any man who does not have the Spirit of Christ in them, are not His.






The Holy Spirit will resume His ministry to the Jews after the church age is closed at the rapture.


According to God's Word, and the Apostle Peter, the Holy Spirit NEVER ENDED HIS MINISTRY to the Jews....it has been going on for a very, very long time, and will never end! (thus it won't re-start)

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."

The Holy Spirit's ministry will never change, as long as sinful human beings exist on Planet Earth. He will draw those who are willing, unto repentence, obedience, salvation, and indwelling regeration of their souls.






The tribulation saints will come from all kindred, tribes, and tongues. The evangelism will come from the Jews who are God's elect. The Holy Spirit will minister through the Jews much as He did before Christ came to the earth. Tribulation events all center on the Jews and Jerusalem not on Gentiles and the church.


Evangelizing Jews are nothing more than Christian members of Christ's church. Jesus tasked all believers, to take His gospel into all the nations until He returns, until the end of the World...this will never stop.

The church will be present on earth during the endtime period, because many from every tongue, tribe, and nation will still continue to be saved, and added to the church daily.

tfcrew
Jul 22nd 2009, 04:40 PM
Where does scripture speak of a "church age"?
I believe it is taught that the 'church age' ends at the 'marriage' of the Lord and His believers.
Whenever this is.
Does anyone know?

kjv Gal 1;4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father....

This means to me the end of something and the beginning of something else.
The topic though is..'he who restrains'

David Taylor
Jul 22nd 2009, 04:44 PM
I believe it is taught that the 'church age' ends at the 'marriage' of the Lord and His believers.
Whenever this is.
Does anyone know?


Scripture tells us the Marriage of the Lord to His believers occurs at His 2nd Advent, when He Returns.

Matthew 25:10 "the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."



Revelation 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. "

notuptome
Jul 22nd 2009, 07:00 PM
The Holy Spirit will be in the hearts of believers in any age now, or future. Any man who does not have the Spirit of Christ in them, are not His.
OT saints had they the Holy Spirit in the same manner as NT saints?


According to God's Word, and the Apostle Peter, the Holy Spirit NEVER ENDED HIS MINISTRY to the Jews....it has been going on for a very, very long time, and will never end! (thus it won't re-start)

What of the blindness that is come upon them and their children concerning Christ?


The Holy Spirit's ministry will never change, as long as sinful human beings exist on Planet Earth. He will draw those who are willing, unto repentence, obedience, salvation, and indwelling regeration of their souls.

Seems He did this in the OT in some fashion but I find clear differences in how He operated in the lives of individual believers OT to NT.


Evangelizing Jews are nothing more than Christian members of Christ's church. Jesus tasked all believers, to take His gospel into all the nations until He returns, until the end of the World...this will never stop.

To the Jew first and then to the Greek but His own rejected Him. Where now it is the church that is doing the evangelizing in the tribulation period it will be Jews preaching the word. Proclaiming that Jesus was indeed the Messiah sent from God to deliver His people. This time they will know Him Zech 12:10


The church will be present on earth during the endtime period, because many from every tongue, tribe, and nation will still continue to be saved, and added to the church daily.
Tribulation saints are not part of the church. Their inheritance is in the kingdom of God on earth not in heaven. Mat 25:31-34 The end times, the tribulation and the second advent are focused on the Jews in fulfillment of the promises God made specifically to them. The church has no part in these events.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome
Jul 22nd 2009, 07:08 PM
Where does scripture speak of a "church age"?
Two verses before the trinity. :lol::lol:
Luke 4:16-21 esp vs 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
This is mid verse of Isa 61:1-2 He then sat down and began to say to them this day is ths scripture fulfilled in your ears.
The latter part of Isa 61:1-2 refers to the day of vengence of our God and belongs to the second advent and judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

John146
Jul 22nd 2009, 07:53 PM
Two verses before the trinity. :lol::lol:
Luke 4:16-21 esp vs 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
This is mid verse of Isa 61:1-2 He then sat down and began to say to them this day is ths scripture fulfilled in your ears.
The latter part of Isa 61:1-2 refers to the day of vengence of our God and belongs to the second advent and judgment.

For the cause of Christ
RogerI guess you misunderstood. I asked about any scripture that says something about a "church age".

tfcrew
Jul 22nd 2009, 08:13 PM
Scripture tells us the Marriage of the Lord to His believers occurs at His 2nd Advent, when He Returns.
Take a look in context...
Rev 19

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
No mention yet that the Lord has returned.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Then when Jesus touches the earth..
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
It looks to me, if these verses are in order, and I believe they are, that when He returns [Armageddon] ...it is with [already] His bride...
So it is not known [exactly] when the marriage feast takes place.

David Taylor
Jul 22nd 2009, 08:24 PM
OT saints had they the Holy Spirit in the same manner as NT saints?

Yes. If not, they could have done no good, could have never been pleasing to the Lord in anything they did, and their hearts would have been constantly wicked. Without the Holy Spirit, they would have no way for the regeneration of their spirit.

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"



What of the blindness that is come upon them and their children concerning Christ?

Paul teaches that the blindness falls away immediately, anytime one of them repents of their sins, and turns to follow the Lord.

Luke 19:8 "And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. "

Matthew 13:15 "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."




To the Jew first and then to the Greek but His own rejected Him.


Only some of the Jews rejected Him.

Notice that thousands upon thousands of Jews did not reject Him though...

Luke 1:1 "Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word"

John 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name"

John 7:31 "And many of the people believed on him"

John 8:30 "As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed"

John 10:41 "all things that John spake of this man were true. And many believed on him there."

John 11:45 "Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him."

John 12:11 "many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus. On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. "

John 12:41 "These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him"

Acts 2:5, 41 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. "

Acts 4:1 "And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide. Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand. "

4:5, 31 "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul"

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women."

Acts 13:43 "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God."

Acts 14:1 "And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed."

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas"

Acts 18:3 "And because Paul was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews"

Acts 18:28 "For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ."

Acts 19:17 "And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed. "

Acts 21:17 "And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe"


Untold Thousands upon thousands and great multitudes of Jews have accepted Him, and continue to accept Him.....all they have to do is repent, and the scales fall off of their eyes, just like Saul of Tarsus.

God has been, and continues to deal with each and every Jew just as Peter foretold. To them and their children, whomever the Lord may call from that generation ontward.

David Taylor
Jul 22nd 2009, 08:33 PM
Tribulation saints are not part of the church.


Here are some characteristics of 'Tribulation saints'.
According to the Scriptures...

Rev 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Rev 7:9 "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Rev 7:14 "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Rev 7:15 "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night"

Rev 7:16 "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more"

Rev 7:17 "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. "

Rev 9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. "

Rev 11:13 "and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Rev 11:18 "that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great"

Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Rev 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Rev 13:10 "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. "

Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

Rev 15:2 "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Rev 17:6 "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Rev 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people"

Rev 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage"



Summarizing, the 'trib-saints' mentioned all throughout Revelation are described as:


"them that were slain for the word of God"
"for the testimony which they held"
"their fellowservants and brethren"
Them that cry "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb"
those who "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"
"they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night"
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more
The Lamb shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes
the seal of God in their foreheads
gave glory to the God of heaven.
reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great
her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
those "written in the book of life of the Lamb"
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints
the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them
them that had gotten the victory over the beast
they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints
Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments
the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus
Come out of her, my people
the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready
she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage

If they are not part of Christ's body, which is the church....then noone from the present N.T. era qualify either.

There is one church, and it is comprised of all members who believe, follow, and trust the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation and redemption.

David Taylor
Jul 22nd 2009, 08:38 PM
Take a look in context...
Rev 19

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
No mention yet that the Lord has returned.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Then when Jesus touches the earth..
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



Did you miss this phrase:

"for the marriage of the Lamb is come" (not had come several years ago)

or this one?

"19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage" (not were called several years ago)

John places the context at the Lord's coming in the very chapter 19; not at some earlier 2 or 3rd chapter.

Just like Matthew in Matthew 25 places the time of the wedding to be at the Coming of the Bridegroom.



So it is not known [exactly] when the marriage feast takes place.


The three scriptures (Isaiah 25, Matt 25, and Rev 19) that address the marriage of Christ and the feast the accompanies it; all three place it at His Return.

To expect the marriage to be anywhere else IMO, is to read into the scriptures; instead of simply take from the scriptures what and when they are telling us.

John146
Jul 22nd 2009, 08:58 PM
Take a look in context...
Rev 19

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
No mention yet that the Lord has returned.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Then when Jesus touches the earth..
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
It looks to me, if these verses are in order, and I believe they are, that when He returns [Armageddon] ...it is with [already] His bride...
So it is not known [exactly] when the marriage feast takes place.The marriage feast takes place right after He comes (Matt 25:1-13).

Matt 25
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 25:10 makes it very clear that the marriage feast takes place after the bridegroom, the Son of man, comes.

tfcrew
Jul 22nd 2009, 09:12 PM
Did you miss this phrase:

"for the marriage of the Lamb is come" (not had come several years ago)

or this one?

"19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage" (not were called several years ago)

.
Excuse me but this is shoe-horning.
I wrote nothing about 'several years'.
The 'time is come' translates into modern English the time has come.
Definite articles in the Greek are tricky.
The text of the chapter plainly states that the Lord comes as a conquerer to the earth not a groom.
He comes with an army of saints already consumated with the Lord.
If some one is not convinced of the clarity there then so be it.

John146
Jul 22nd 2009, 09:18 PM
Excuse me but this is shoe-horning.
I wrote nothing about 'several years'.
The 'time is come' translates into modern English the time has come.
Definite articles in the Greek are tricky.
The text of the chapter plainly states that the Lord comes as a conquerer to the earth not a groom.
He comes with an army of saints already consumated with the Lord.
If some one is not convinced of the clarity there then so be it.What about those who are alive and remain unto His coming? You know, those who are like the wise virgins in Matthew 25:1-13? How can the marriage take place before His coming when those who are alive and remain like the wise virgins in the parable do not enter the marriage until His coming?

IBWatching
Jul 22nd 2009, 10:23 PM
...The three scriptures (Isaiah 25, Matt 25, and Rev 19) that address the marriage of Christ and the feast the accompanies it; all three place it at His Return.

To expect the marriage to be anywhere else IMO, is to read into the scriptures; instead of simply take from the scriptures what and when they are telling us.

Jesus gave the order and added specific details about what happens in the parable of the Wedding Feast in Matthew 22. The order He gave was:

1. First set of slaves is sent out calling guests to wedding feast.
2. Wedding feast is prepared.
3. Second set of slaves is sent out, but are mistreated and killed.
4. King sets their city on fire for what they did to second set of slaves.
5. The wedding is ready.
6. A third set of slaves is sent out. this time inviting anyone who will listen.
7. The Wedding feast happens.

Because all parables are about Israel, they are the ones being invited to the feast initially. The last set of slaves are not sent out until the Wedding is ready. No set of slaves is sent out between the time the city is destroyed by fire and the time the Wedding is ready. That's because the guests aren't being called, the Bride is.

Beckrl
Jul 22nd 2009, 10:36 PM
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

Many theologians of eschatology say that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit or the Church, to be raptured out of this world before the antichrist comes to power, so that there is no interference of this evil man's plan to dictate the world. I am, through reading the Bible, a post-tribber, even though many of my favorite teachers are pre-tribbers. This scripture seems to support pre-tribulation rapture yet it is the only one that I can find that supports this view. I am not going to debate pre-trib/post-trib because you can click on any thread in ETC and hear people spat about it.

What I am wondering is, for pre-tribbers, this scripture would make sense as the restrainer being the Church or the Holy Ghost; but I'm curious what the post-tribbers here think. Who else could restrain from keeping the man of sin?

Obviously if it was the Holy Ghost, there would be no saints in the tribulation since He is our Comforter (John 14:16) and keeps us from sin. This also seems to contradict since it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and saves, and the Bible speaks of saints in the tribulation - but if they're all raptured out and there's no Holy Ghost, who can be saved? It must be the church if one is a pre-tribber, NOT the Holy Ghost. But if you're a post-tribber, then who is He that restrains?

:2cents:
Also if we take the more common translation of "taken" (come, become, be done, be made) and "way" (middle, midst, midst of, amoungt) we get a different meaning.

only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

As in: only he who just now ,this moment keep ,to hold back, until he become, come out of the midst.




"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

A falling away is that withholdeth or restrain the son of perdition being revealed until that has come first then that man of sin revealed.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Beck

CaymanAngel
Nov 26th 2011, 01:02 PM
Last night I was reading in Daniel 12:7 about "..when the power of the holy people has been the rapture will then take place. I was thinking on this and wondering exactly who the 'holy people' were, is it Israel or the body of Christ, i.e. the Church. This morning I'm reading in 2 Thess 2:7 and the thing that stood out for me was "...but the one who now holds it back..." WHO is that one and this prompted my search. From what I found it did not infer Jesus, the Holy Spirit or God Himself - it seemed to be something other than the Godhead. I then found this link http://www.wor.org/Books/w/whrestrn.sen.htm. I would love some discussion, sorry I know this is an old thread so if anybody is will to discuss, it would be much appreciated.

Desperaux
Nov 26th 2011, 03:30 PM
Last night I was reading in Daniel 12:7 about "..when the power of the holy people has been the rapture will then take place. I was thinking on this and wondering exactly who the 'holy people' were, is it Israel or the body of Christ, i.e. the Church. This morning I'm reading in 2 Thess 2:7 and the thing that stood out for me was "...but the one who now holds it back..." WHO is that one and this prompted my search. From what I found it did not infer Jesus, the Holy Spirit or God Himself - it seemed to be something other than the Godhead. I then found this link http://www.wor.org/Books/w/whrestrn.sen.htm. I would love some discussion, sorry I know this is an old thread so if anybody is will to discuss, it would be much appreciated.

I wouldn't pay that article too much attention, as from the outset the writer refers to those raptured as 'the Gentile Bride', while we know that the Bride is made up of both Jews and Gentiles and has no affiliation with either---but we are simply the Bride of Christ, One New Man.

He also says something about there being nothing biblical about the restrainer being taken up, but of course we know that the restrainer is taken out of the way---just as the Church is.

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way.

Saved7
Nov 26th 2011, 04:29 PM
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

Many theologians of eschatology say that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit or the Church, to be raptured out of this world before the antichrist comes to power, so that there is no interference of this evil man's plan to dictate the world. I am, through reading the Bible, a post-tribber, even though many of my favorite teachers are pre-tribbers. This scripture seems to support pre-tribulation rapture yet it is the only one that I can find that supports this view. I am not going to debate pre-trib/post-trib because you can click on any thread in ETC and hear people spat about it.

What I am wondering is, for pre-tribbers, this scripture would make sense as the restrainer being the Church or the Holy Ghost; but I'm curious what the post-tribbers here think. Who else could restrain from keeping the man of sin?

Obviously if it was the Holy Ghost, there would be no saints in the tribulation since He is our Comforter (John 14:16) and keeps us from sin. This also seems to contradict since it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and saves, and the Bible speaks of saints in the tribulation - but if they're all raptured out and there's no Holy Ghost, who can be saved? It must be the church if one is a pre-tribber, NOT the Holy Ghost. But if you're a post-tribber, then who is He that restrains?


Thanks saints!


I've looked at that on a number of occasions as a post-tribber/pre-wrather and realized that the term "taken out of the way" could really be a thing that happens by force...indicating some sort of violence that would remove the church, like persecution.

quiet dove
Nov 26th 2011, 04:57 PM
I've looked at that on a number of occasions as a post-tribber/pre-wrather and realized that the term "taken out of the way" could really be a thing that happens by force...indicating some sort of violence that would remove the church, like persecution.

But rapture or persecution, still does not alter that the "restrainer" is taken out of the way, or answer who exactly then the restrainer would be? Even under persecution, the restrainer could still be the Holy Spirit.

divaD
Nov 26th 2011, 05:23 PM
:2cents:
Also if we take the more common translation of "taken" (come, become, be done, be made) and "way" (middle, midst, midst of, amoungt) we get a different meaning.

only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

As in: only he who just now ,this moment keep ,to hold back, until he become, come out of the midst.




"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

A falling away is that withholdeth or restrain the son of perdition being revealed until that has come first then that man of sin revealed.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Beck




Well Beckrl, it looks like we're on the same page here. It looks like you summed up the correct interpretation of that verse quite well. 'Taken' in the Greek doesn't even carry the same sense as it does in English for the word 'taken'. There's several other passages where taken, took, etc, carry the same sense as 'taken' in the English. But those verses use other Greek words and not ginomai, the Greek word that was used for 'taken' in that verse. To me it seems like the verse is saying that something is arising out of the midst, and not that something was literally being taken away.

Saved7
Nov 26th 2011, 05:49 PM
But rapture or persecution, still does not alter that the "restrainer" is taken out of the way, or answer who exactly then the restrainer would be? Even under persecution, the restrainer could still be the Holy Spirit.

No doubt that the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, the Spirit in those who are being persecuted.;)

quiet dove
Nov 26th 2011, 06:11 PM
No doubt that the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, the Spirit in those who are being persecuted.;)

Yea I know the latter part....LOL

I just was not sure what you meant then in regards to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer otherwise. And so you are saying that indeed the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, your disagreement comes in regards to the rapture being what removes Him.....gotcha... :)

Saved7
Nov 26th 2011, 10:19 PM
Yea I know the latter part....LOL

I just was not sure what you meant then in regards to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer otherwise. And so you are saying that indeed the restrainer could be the Holy Spirit, your disagreement comes in regards to the rapture being what removes Him.....gotcha... :)


Yes ma'am, you got it!:D

Saved7
Nov 26th 2011, 10:26 PM
:2cents:
Also if we take the more common translation of "taken" (come, become, be done, be made) and "way" (middle, midst, midst of, amoungt) we get a different meaning.

only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

As in: only he who just now ,this moment keep ,to hold back, until he become, come out of the midst.




"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time

A falling away is that withholdeth or restrain the son of perdition being revealed until that has come first then that man of sin revealed.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Beck




Ok, wait, I THINK I understand what you are saying here....but I am having a hard time making it make sense when I put it together. Are you saying that the with holding is the Church not being in a falling away state, but when that happens, then we will know who he is and there will be no restraining him? Or what? I am reading it and I am having a hard time putting that into an order that makes sense as I go over those verses.....yet the argument makes sense. Can you explain this a little better for me?


ooooh, ok I just looked at it again, "he is restraining himself until he comes out from the midst of"....whatever??? is that what this could actually be translated as???

So it looks like this....

2 Thessalonians 2:7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

But MAYBE it should read like this???

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only NOW AT THIS TIME, HE IS HOLDING BACK UNTIL HE APPEARS PUBLICLY FROM OUT OF THE MIDST, (possibly through some apparent miracle.)

he who now: 1) just now, this moment

2) now at this time, at this very time, this moment

letteth:

1) to hold back, detain, retain
a) from going away
b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance
2) to check a ship's headway i.e. to hold or head the ship
c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
2) to get possession of, take
b) to possess

will let until:
1) till, until

he be taken:

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

out of:
1) out of, from, by, away from

the way:

1) middle
2) the midst
3) in the midst of, amongst

DurbanDude
Nov 27th 2011, 08:48 AM
Last night I was reading in Daniel 12:7 about "..when the power of the holy people has been the rapture will then take place. I was thinking on this and wondering exactly who the 'holy people' were, is it Israel or the body of Christ, i.e. the Church. This morning I'm reading in 2 Thess 2:7 and the thing that stood out for me was "...but the one who now holds it back..." WHO is that one and this prompted my search. From what I found it did not infer Jesus, the Holy Spirit or God Himself - it seemed to be something other than the Godhead. I then found this link http://www.wor.org/Books/w/whrestrn.sen.htm. I would love some discussion, sorry I know this is an old thread so if anybody is will to discuss, it would be much appreciated.

I also do not see any biblical support for the notion that the restrainer is the holy spirit. Now I want you to have an open mind when I suggest an alternative:

Rev 12 describes a situation where the saints have overcome Satan through our testimony. Now the saints have always had a testimony, so for this testimony and martyrdom described in Rev 12 to suddenly cause Satan to fall seems to indicate a victorious climax to our testimony. I would equate this with the testimony reaching the ends of the earth, because this is the victorious goal of the church, and we are told that the end will not come until the gospel has been preached to all nations.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So it appears we have our "sign-watching" back to front, we are thinking that Satan is trying to orchestrate the politics of earth to quickly usher in the antichrist, BUT THIS IS WRONG TEACHING. It appears that Satan is restraining the spread of the testimony of the saints, and so delaying the end of his influence on earth. When Satan's delaying tactics are overcome by the church succesfully spreading the gospel, Satan will not be happy about his 3.5 years of ultimate rule over earth, as opposed to the current teaching that he is trying to orchestrate this.

So whether or not Satan is the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2, the chapter of Rev 12 teaches us that Satan is restraining his ultimate manifestation on earth , fights to STAY in heaven rather being cast down to earth, and Satan is ANGRY that he is FORCED to manifest on earth for the last 3.5 years of wrath. With these facts in mind, now read 2 Thessalonians again:
2THESS 2:6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2THESS 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only `there is' one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
2THESS 2:8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
2THESS 2:9 `even he', whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Rev 12: Satan is delaying his manifestation on earth, he is removed from heaven, Satan displays great wrath on earth
2 Thess 2: one that restrains, he is taken out of the way, Satan manifests through signs and deception

Joe Rennels
Sep 17th 2012, 01:27 AM
Abraham had no bible, church, or Holly Spirit. His singuler faith in the spokin word of G-d was counted to him as rightiousness. If the "Church", who has the Holly Spirit is raptured, and the remnent, the 144,000 who flee to Petra and are ashmarked to be filled with salvation with the knowledge of Christ are the last ones home. Are their no indevidual men who stand with faith? Did this just describe 1 man. Jesus said upon his return this is what he is looking for, men who stand alone with faith. Do we all have to be held up by a congrigation? My mom told me that no man is an island, no man can stand alone,but Abraham did. Did G-d change was anyone truely standing with Christ when he was peirced. I don't think so. Not even the Father. Christ said we will do the same and even greater thing. He couldn't show his fathers kingdom,for the cornerstone had been layed until his death.

Joe Rennels
Sep 17th 2012, 01:46 AM
Does anyone find it a little ironick that this very subject and verse is the half-torah reading for today?

Joe Rennels
Sep 17th 2012, 01:56 AM
The Trueth of G-d is seen in all things by anyone who wants to see. I was taken out of the Church 20 years ago. I was brought to the Torah, then I was brought to a very lonely place in a large city where I sit alone having felowship with my brothers. G-d is everywhere for all things work for the benafit of one who trusts in the Lord.

Joe Rennels
Sep 17th 2012, 02:08 AM
Jesuses birth languege was hebrew. Why would I take the "fact" from the ones who got it third hand from Paul when Hebrew is no longer a dead languege?

BroRog
Sep 17th 2012, 03:11 PM
Jesuses birth languege was hebrew. Why would I take the "fact" from the ones who got it third hand from Paul when Hebrew is no longer a dead languege?I heard that Jesus spoke Aramaic, though I haven't investigated it myself. But one thing to bear in mind is the fact that modern Hebrew is different than ancient Hebrew.

Raybob
Sep 17th 2012, 03:21 PM
But rapture or persecution, still does not alter that the "restrainer" is taken out of the way, or answer who exactly then the restrainer would be? Even under persecution, the restrainer could still be the Holy Spirit.

I guess what I really don't understand is the Holy Spirit IS God. How can God be "taken away"? He is omnipresent.

DurbanDude
Sep 20th 2012, 07:24 PM
I guess what I really don't understand is the Holy Spirit IS God. How can God be "taken away"? He is omnipresent.

True. that's why I prefer the notion that Satan has to be removed, the timing fits in better too.

BroRog
Sep 20th 2012, 10:15 PM
I guess what I really don't understand is the Holy Spirit IS God. How can God be "taken away"? He is omnipresent.Remember when Jesus said that he would send the Holy Spirit to specifically help the Apostles remember his teaching and to convict the world of sin and judgment etc? The Holy Spirit is "taken away" when the opposite takes place. When the Holy Spirit is no longer convicting the world of sin and judgment etc. that will be the day the HS is taken away. When Paul says that God sends on them a delusion, this speaks about the same thing using different wording.

Raybob
Sep 21st 2012, 03:41 AM
Remember when Jesus said that he would send the Holy Spirit to specifically help the Apostles remember his teaching and to convict the world of sin and judgment etc? The Holy Spirit is "taken away" when the opposite takes place. When the Holy Spirit is no longer convicting the world of sin and judgment etc. that will be the day the HS is taken away. When Paul says that God sends on them a delusion, this speaks about the same thing using different wording.

No, but I remember Jesus told us that He would send the spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) to guide us Christians in all things. The Holy Spirit now lives inside us, not like before the cross. The Holy Spirit is God. God is omnipresent. I can't, for the life of me, figure out how anyone could think any part of God, specifically what Jesus calls the "spirit of truth" (Holy Spirit) could ever be not present, when it's omnipresent.

Joh 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (18) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


As for God sending a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, He already did that. That part is now history. That is just a precursor to what will come "Wicked be revealed".

BroRog
Sep 21st 2012, 04:26 AM
No, but I remember Jesus told us that He would send the spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) to guide us Christians in all things. The Holy Spirit now lives inside us, not like before the cross. The Holy Spirit is God. God is omnipresent. I can't, for the life of me, figure out how anyone could think any part of God, specifically what Jesus calls the "spirit of truth" (Holy Spirit) could ever be not present, when it's omnipresent.

Joh 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (18) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


As for God sending a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, He already did that. That part is now history. That is just a precursor to what will come "Wicked be revealed".Okay. I understand. With regard to the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit, no doubt that the Holy Spirit can't be removed in the sense that he is no longer present. I agree with you here. But something or someone is keeping the man of lawlessness from appearing on the scene. And when that something or someone is removed, this will allow the man of lawlessness to work in the power of Satan to deceive people.

So then, I figure that if Paul is talking about time of apostasy, a time when people will no longer love the truth, and that the man of lawlessness appears with false signs and wonders, the spirit of truth is the person keeping this from happening. No?

EmethAlethia
Sep 21st 2012, 05:23 AM
LOL, I get a kick out of the, "It is not capitalized, therefore he that restrains cannot be the Holy Spirit", crowd. iF i ReVeRSe CapItAlizE everything does it alter the meaning in Greek? Are there entire manuscripts all in caps, and entire manuscripts all in lower case, in the Greek? Yes there are. Does that mean that every time a personal pronoun was used when all the letters were caps that we were refering to God? No. So let's throw that out of the discussion. What translators chose to do with regards to capitalizing this pronoun, or leaving it lower case, really has nothing to do with the meaning or the interpretation.

So, how do we determine meaning? Let's look at the context.

2Th 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with all the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, ...

What we have is a person on the scene who has all the power, activities, signs, wonders, ... of Satan Himself.

Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The question is, when the angels rejoiced when the foundations of the earth were laid, did they see the power of God? Do the angels who have been with God, in His presence, prior to men even being created, understand who God is, His power, ... ?

Now think about this, 1/3 of ALL the angels BELIEVED that Satan could take God. They honestly BELIEVED it. They paid the price. BUt understand, someone coming with all the power, authority, signs, powers, ... of SATAN HIMSELF, is not someone that has to worry about a lot of opponents. The question is, what "Angel" can fight against him? Remember:

Jud 1:9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

The top angels ever created will not TOUCH a disagreement with Satan. 1/3 of the angels believed he could take God! Now, who can restrain the power of Satan? Any guesses? Another Angel? A man? Tell me! Is there any thing, any being, any human, ... that has any hope of restraining someone that comes with this kind of power, authority, ... that has any hope whatsoever of "restraining" such a being?

Let's jump track for a second. Right after all of this, who comes back? Christ, right? Back before the Holy Spirit was given to indwell Christians, and was given as a pledge of their future inheritance, what did Christ say He MUST do before the Holy Spirit could indwell us?

Joh 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

While I will not state that this is infallible truth, the Holy Spirit could not come UNTIL the Son left the planet. If there is an issue with the Son, and the Spirit, being here at the same time, what must happen for the Son to come back again? Here's the problem:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Do we remember the O.T. story where things were given “as a pledge” of receiving something else? A pledge was something given as a promise that you would receive something else. If I gave you a staff and a ring, as a pledge that you would receive a pound of gold, UNTIL you received EXACTLY a pound of gold from me, you kept the pledge. The moment you received that which the pledge was given to secure, that which was pledged was released.
TO summarize, UNTIL you get your “future inheritance” you keep the pledge:
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

All of this keys on what “can restrain”. Shoot, if we are talking about restraining a three year old, I can do it. If we are talking about restraining an angel, sorry, that’s above my pay grade, but an archangel can do the job. If you are talking about messing with an archangel, unless you are Satan, … or God, … sorry, you are out of luck. If you are Satan, or you have all of his power, authority, signs, wonders, … then you are talking the very top of the authority chain.

I am open to opposing opinions, and I would LOVE to see what someone can come up with to argue with these points. Sorry that capitalization in English translations from Greek manuscripts, really has nothing to do with meaning. But, all caps, or all lower case, didn’t change the meaning at all. You can’t make a case for the Holy Spirit being the “He”, or someone, or something “else” being the “he” based on a translations capitalization.

Raybob
Sep 21st 2012, 05:28 AM
Okay. I understand. With regard to the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit, no doubt that the Holy Spirit can't be removed in the sense that he is no longer present. I agree with you here. But something or someone is keeping the man of lawlessness from appearing on the scene. And when that something or someone is removed, this will allow the man of lawlessness to work in the power of Satan to deceive people.

So then, I figure that if Paul is talking about time of apostasy, a time when people will no longer love the truth, and that the man of lawlessness appears with false signs and wonders, the spirit of truth is the person keeping this from happening. No?If you believe in "a man" of lawlessness, sometime in the future, but I don't. I see the "he" as in "he be taken out of the way", as the personifiction of the "mysterey of iniquity", introduced earlier at the beginning of the sentence.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

I believe "man of sin" is, and has been, seated in the temple of God already. I believe the devil is behind "man of sin" being in the temple, and I believe when he is fully revealed, he will be destroyed with the brightness of His coming, Hallelujah!

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

DurbanDude
Sep 21st 2012, 06:34 AM
All of this keys on what “can restrain”. Shoot, if we are talking about restraining a three year old, I can do it. If we are talking about restraining an angel, sorry, that’s above my pay grade, but an archangel can do the job. If you are talking about messing with an archangel, unless you are Satan, … or God, … sorry, you are out of luck. If you are Satan, or you have all of his power, authority, signs, wonders, … then you are talking the very top of the authority chain.

I am open to opposing opinions, and I would LOVE to see what someone can come up with to argue with these points. Sorry that capitalization in English translations from Greek manuscripts, really has nothing to do with meaning. But, all caps, or all lower case, didn’t change the meaning at all. You can’t make a case for the Holy Spirit being the “He”, or someone, or something “else” being the “he” based on a translations capitalization.

I'm not debating the possibility that your view can fit scripture, I just believe that there is not enough confirmation for your view of the Holy Spirit being taken out of the way.

I believe there is more evidence for Satan being taken out the way.

If you read Daniel 7 and Rev 13, amongst other verses, we can see that there is a period of 3.5 years of persecution just before the second coming. these verses are commonly regarded as the 3.5 years that the beast/antichrist is in control. Now Rev 12 describes a great success of the gospel followed by Satan BEING REMOVED FROM HEAVEN, and with great wrath coming to earth and persecuting the saints for 3.5 years, it seems that the timing of the antichrist coming to power and Satan being removed from heaven is the same moment. Can you see that? Both occur at the beginning of 3.5 years of persecution.

Thus we have a forcible removal of the evil one who is restraining the gospel, when he is overcome he is cast to earth full of great wrath. This is certain proof that Satan is not the one who is rushing towards the tribulation, Satan is delaying the tribulation, we know this because Rev 12 is so clear that Satan is angry when he is cast out of heaven, and angry that his time is short. The obvious implication is that Satan is trying to delay the end, the Holy Spirit is trying to speed the end. As Jesus said, the end will come when the gospel has been preached to all nations. As Paul said, let us hasten the end.

And so it is Satan who is delaying the end through gospel delaying tactics, trying to distract the church from completing our task, the church has an indefinite time period , the church age, in which to preach to all the nations. The faster we do it, the faster Jesus comes, and the less time Satan has.

So its not the Holy Spirit that is restraining evil, but it is Satan that is restraining his end. The Holy Spirit is speeding the end of this world through encouraging us to preach the gospel, Satan is restraining his end.

When Satan is cast to earth according to Revelation 12, he is full of wrath and manifests evil for that last 3.5 years. This fits in perfectly with the "man of sin" in 2 Thessalonians 2 whose rule co-incides with Satan's deception until Jesus comes.

Raybob
Sep 21st 2012, 06:50 AM
...So, how do we determine meaning? Let's look at the context.

2Th 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with all the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, ...

What we have is a person on the scene who has all the power, activities, signs, wonders, ... of Satan Himself.
...

If you check the original Greek text with concordance, there is no way you could ever get "a person" out of that passage.

Your translation has "Then that lawless one will be revealed" for the Greek words that mean "at that time, wicked or lawlessness will be uncovered". It speaks of lawlessness, not of a person at all.

Yours also has, "the one whose coming is in accord with all the activity of Satan" for the Greek text that basically says, "Which the second coming ('parousia' in Greek) comes after/later in time from the working of Satan..."

John146
Sep 21st 2012, 04:25 PM
I guess what I really don't understand is the Holy Spirit IS God. How can God be "taken away"? He is omnipresent.I believe it is referring to The Holy Spirit's restraining influence being taken away by way of the gospel no longer being preached freely in most places and by way of God simply not contending with people anymore and just giving them over to their wickedness. The result of the Holy Spirit's influence being taken away will result in this:

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

See how it talks about God sending them strong delusion in response to their rejection of the truth? Why would He do that? Because He will have had enough of contending with them and imploring them to repent (similar to Noah's day) and will instead give them over to their wickedness and "send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned.". I see the passage above as being something that will occur during Satan's little season. Notice how it says "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders". It seems to me that Paul was referring to something that had not yet occurred at that time and would occur in the future and would have something to do with "the working of Satan".

Raybob
Sep 21st 2012, 07:16 PM
...I see the passage above as being something that will occur during Satan's little season. Notice how it says "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders". It seems to me that Paul was referring to something that had not yet occurred at that time and would occur in the future and would have something to do with "the working of Satan".

I used to think the same thing until I saw 1 Th 2:9 in the Greek and realized this speaks of the parousia, or the second coming, not the coming of a lawless one, that happens 'after' the works of Satan.

John146
Sep 21st 2012, 09:15 PM
I used to think the same thing until I saw 1 Th 2:9 in the Greek and realized this speaks of the parousia, or the second coming, not the coming of a lawless one, that happens 'after' the works of Satan.How are you seeing the word "after" in that verse? Are you basically saying that you believe all of the English translations have it translated wrong? How exactly do you interpret 2 Thess 2:3-12? Who or what restrains and what are they restraining? Is not the who or what that restrains also the one that is taken away? What is your understanding of that part of the passage? Sorry for asking so many questions but I can't tell how exactly you interpret 2 Thess 2 at this point so I'm hoping you will clarify that for me.

Raybob
Sep 21st 2012, 09:59 PM
How are you seeing the word "after" in that verse? Are you basically saying that you believe all of the English translations have it translated wrong?KJV uses "after". That's not wrong. The parousia is later in time (after) than the workings of Satan. The word used for "after" also means "more excellent, and "opposed to".
How exactly do you interpret 2 Thess 2:3-12? Who or what restrains and what are they restraining? Is not the who or what that restrains also the one that is taken away? What is your understanding of that part of the passage? Sorry for asking so many questions but I can't tell how exactly you interpret 2 Thess 2 at this point so I'm hoping you will clarify that for me.

I don't see anyone or thing, restraining a thing or someone here. I believe vs. 7 speaks of the "mystery of iniquity". I believe that is also what is represented by "man" of sin, in vs. 3. I believe vs. 7 says that basically anyone that lets iniquity in their camp, or life, will 'let', until wickedness is revealed with the brightness of His coming. I believe all of the "he" personal pronouns found in KJV, vs. 3-12, should have been written, not as he or she, but as "it's", meaning "anthropos (man) of sin".

I believe all this is about "iniquity" in the church (temple). That is "man" of sin. This character you call "the man" of sin, you need to call it "iniquity". You can also call it "son of perdition". It's also what caused Judas to 'sell his soul'.

Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

John146
Sep 24th 2012, 05:55 PM
KJV uses "after". That's not wrong. The parousia is later in time (after) than the workings of Satan. The word used for "after" also means "more excellent, and "opposed to". Yes, the KJV does have the word "after" there, but I don't believe it's meant to be understood as referring to something that occurs later in time than the workings of Satan. The Greek word is "kata" and that word does not ever refer to chronological sequence in scripture. So, how can it mean that ("later in time than") in 2 Thess 2:9? In scripture that word almost always means "according to" or "opposed to". So, if it is referring to Christ's parousia then I guess it could be saying that His parousia will occur in opposition to the workings of Satan. That could fit. But I've always thought the verse was referring to the timing of the revealing of the man of sin (not an individual Antichrist, but the wicked in general) by way of the working of Satan through signs and wonders and so on.


I don't see anyone or thing, restraining a thing or someone here. I believe vs. 7 speaks of the "mystery of iniquity". I believe that is also what is represented by "man" of sin, in vs. 3. I believe vs. 7 says that basically anyone that lets iniquity in their camp, or life, will 'let', until wickedness is revealed with the brightness of His coming. I believe all of the "he" personal pronouns found in KJV, vs. 3-12, should have been written, not as he or she, but as "it's", meaning "anthropos (man) of sin".

I believe all this is about "iniquity" in the church (temple). That is "man" of sin. This character you call "the man" of sin, you need to call it "iniquity".Raybob, don't you know my view any better than this by now? I don't call any character "the man" of sin. Haven't you seen my explanation for my understanding of "the man of sin" which includes the fact that I believe it does NOT represent an individual person or Antichrist? I believe "the man of sin" is a general reference to wicked people, similar to this:

1 Cor 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

See how verse 13 refers to "that wicked person" but the context is in terms of wicked people in general (fornicators, idolators, drunkards, etc.) rather than any certain individual? That's my understanding of "the man of sin"/"son of perdition"/"that wicked" in 2 Thess 2 as well.