PDA

View Full Version : Fear God or Love God?



mikebr
Jan 27th 2009, 11:26 PM
There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.

What in the world are you going to do with this verse?:hmm:

Lewis Mixon
Jan 27th 2009, 11:45 PM
I believe when someone becomes born again they experience the Fear of the Lord.Why?because i sensed my own nakedness before God Almighty.And Jesus said fear him!
While asleep one night The Lord spoke to me in my mind.You see we can't even hide our thoughts from him .He knows all things!
You see it was the Lord that woke me up to my lost and sinful nature and how lost i was.He could have passed by me,but he didn't.He made sure i heard his voice.And his voice will not return to him void!Why because he is the Word of God.
It is the Lord that quickens us we do nothing to begin that work.The Lord will not fail in regenerating each called child.When he reachs for us he will not miss.In the new birth each child is born with the Love of God within them.This love the Lord gives us will not fail ,for it will conquer all bad things.Thats why sin will not have dominion over us .For the Love within us will overcome.The Lord takes up and abode within us and he his a abiding spirit.He will not leave us or forsake us.
The holy spirit will make warfare within in us if need be,So we don't need a teacher we will learn a lesson.A lesson we won't forget.

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 01:23 AM
I believe when someone becomes born again they experience the Fear of the Lord.Why?because i sensed my own nakedness before God Almighty.And Jesus said fear him!
While asleep one night The Lord spoke to me in my mind.You see we can't even hide our thoughts from him .He knows all things!
You see it was the Lord that woke me up to my lost and sinful nature and how lost i was.He could have passed by me,but he didn't.He made sure i heard his voice.And his voice will not return to him void!Why because he is the Word of God.
It is the Lord that quickens us we do nothing to begin that work.The Lord will not fail in regenerating each called child.When he reachs for us he will not miss.In the new birth each child is born with the Love of God within them.This love the Lord gives us will not fail ,for it will conquer all bad things.Thats why sin will not have dominion over us .For the Love within us will overcome.The Lord takes up and abode within us and he his a abiding spirit.He will not leave us or forsake us.
The holy spirit will make warfare within in us if need be,So we don't need a teacher we will learn a lesson.A lesson we won't forget.

Doesn't address the scripture, but this particular........................................ .................................................. ........................?

stillforgiven
Jan 28th 2009, 01:52 AM
There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.

What in the world are you going to do with this verse?:hmm:

Here's a guess, but I must admit first off that I am not "there".

If we can ever really believe that God really loves us the way He claims to, we'd never fear Him. Then even when we mess up or have a bad day, we'd run to Him and not away. We'd be able to trust that He really is working things out for us, and not pounding us for some unknown sin. We could believe that when everything goes to hell in our lives that is not Him doing it or causing it.

Just a thought.

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 12:04 PM
Here's a guess, but I must admit first off that I am not "there".

If we can ever really believe that God really loves us the way He claims to, we'd never fear Him. Then even when we mess up or have a bad day, we'd run to Him and not away. We'd be able to trust that He really is working things out for us, and not pounding us for some unknown sin. We could believe that when everything goes to hell in our lives that is not Him doing it or causing it.

Just a thought.

Or if it is doing it or causing it, it is for our utter and complete good. Why should I fear that?

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 12:05 PM
Hello darkness, my old friend,
Ive come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left its seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.;)

MercyChild
Jan 28th 2009, 12:11 PM
There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.


Oh dear, this is a catchy one........
My gues is that we do not fear God when we love Him, but repsect Him and because we love Him will do what He commanded............Sorry bro, don't thin I can help, but would sure like to follow this thread!:blush:

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 12:40 PM
And we have come to KNOW and have believed the love which God has for us. God is Love and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in HIm.
By this, love is perfected with us, that we may have confidence in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world.

Amen and Amen

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 03:07 PM
There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.

What in the world are you going to do with this verse?:hmm:

It's starts out as reverence and then it should eventually move to a loving relationship with reverence still existing. I don't think fear of condemnation should be anywhere present in a perfect loving relationship. Reverence is not the same as being afraid of God. We can have respect for God's power and authority and at the same time love him.

RabbiKnife
Jan 28th 2009, 03:17 PM
"Fear God" does not mean to be afraid of him.

"Perfect love casts out all feelings of being afraid."

Two different uses of the English word "fear."

Comparing apples and Studebakers.

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 03:18 PM
If we can ever really believe that God really loves us the way He claims to, we'd never fear Him. Then even when we mess up or have a bad day, we'd run to Him and not away. We'd be able to trust that He really is working things out for us, and not pounding us for some unknown sin. We could believe that when everything goes to hell in our lives that is not Him doing it or causing it.

Just a thought.

These are my thoughts exactly. Fear doesn't drive one closer to anything..it only drives one away. It did so with Adam and Eve upon their disobedience, and it continues to do so with us to this day. I think one does need to be careful though of not having any type of reverence whatsoever before God in their relationship with him. That being said, there should be a certain degree of approachableness which enables one to come to him with any problem without being afraid of retribution...this verse below I think should embody the closeness and approachableness we have in coming to God through his son for respite and repentance.


Matthew 11:28-30
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."


I can't imagine a God that is not approachable at all. How can anyone come to repentance, or have faith in something they can't even approach.

stillforgiven
Jan 28th 2009, 03:21 PM
Or if it is doing it or causing it, it is for our utter and complete good. Why should I fear that?

Until someone learns the full love of God, it still causes fear.

Like when I was younger, my dad would do things with me and it was good. But when he raised a hand to me in anger, deserved or not, I feared him for awhile afterwards, and that fear would override any trust of his love. It's the same for God, esp since we can't see Him and we know how powerful He is, and esp because the ends that justifies the means can be hard to see. We may never see some of them.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 03:26 PM
There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.

What in the world are you going to do with this verse?:hmm:

The same thing we do with other verses. Look at it in light of the entire scriptures. You do know the Greek word for fear here means "terror" and the word that Jesus uses when he teaches his disciples to fear God does not mean "terror" right?

They are two different words and mean different things. I would not fear my dad like I would fear hitler. Those are two different types of fear. Perfect love cast out terror. But it does not cast out proper fear.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 03:28 PM
Hi Mike -

I love God and know that He loves me. I also stand in awe of God and have a fearful respect for His power, might and integrity.

I do not "fear" what He will "do" to me because i am His child and He loves me. I do stand in complete awe of His power - which means I have a fearful respect for Him and His abilities.

It's pretty amazing when you realize the Father you go to each and every day, several times a day, to talk over mundane things has the power to create the world. And He not only listens to my paltry needs, He answers me - He takes the time to answer me. Wow.
V

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 03:33 PM
Hi Mike -

I love God and know that He loves me. I also stand in awe of God and have a fearful respect for His power, might and integrity.

I do not "fear" what He will "do" to me because i am His child and He loves me. I do stand in complete awe of His power - which means I have a fearful respect for Him and His abilities.

It's pretty amazing when you realize the Father you go to each and every day, several times a day, to talk over mundane things has the power to create the world. And He not only listens to my paltry needs, He answers me - He takes the time to answer me. Wow.
V

It's not a spirit of timidity though VHayes..it's one of reverence for authority. This type of reverence stems from love..not from fear, and it gives power to a believer. This type of reverence is one of the "seven spirits of God" that the Holy Spirit is made up of.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 03:44 PM
It's not a spirit of timidity though VHayes..it's one of reverence for authority. This type of reverence stems from love..not from fear, and it gives power to a believer. This type of reverence is one of the "seven spirits of God" that the Holy Spirit is made up of.
Ok - I agree it is reverence. I thought that's what I said but the written word can be misleading due to there being no voice tone, no facial expressions, etc.

But I gotta know, how did you come up with me having a spirit of timidity? I go daily, many times a day, and talk with my Father. I'm not timid in the least - I plainly talk, ask, seek. It DOES amaze me that He cares for me but that isn't being timid, that's being honest - there isn't a whole lot of the real "me" to love.

Thanks in advance -
V

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 03:50 PM
Ok - I agree it is reverence. I thought that's what I said but the written word can be misleading due to there being no voice tone, no facial expressions, etc.

But I gotta know, how did you come up with me having a spirit of timidity? I go daily, many times a day, and talk with my Father. I'm not timid in the least - I plainly talk, ask, seek. It DOES amaze me that He cares for me but that isn't being timid, that's being honest - there isn't a whole lot of the real "me" to love.

Thanks in advance -
V

Oh, I'm sorry..I just wanted to clarify that there is a difference between being afraid and reverence. I should have clarified that my timidity comment wasn't inasmuch directed at you per say, but rather just to distinguish that being afraid or timid isn't the same as having reverence.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 28th 2009, 03:51 PM
I understand your question about the verse. On the one hand, somebody might like to say that there is need to fear God whatsoever, since that verse says that perfect love casts out all fear. On the other hand, another person might point out that there are enough verses in the Old and New Testament that do talk about fearing God. They might mention Hebrews 12, which tells us to "serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God [is] a consuming fire", or Ephesians 5:21 which says we should submit to one another in the fear of God. Somebody might even point out that 1 Peter 2:17 comes right out and tells us to "Fear God".

In other words, quoting 1 John 4:18 alone does not justify saying that the fear of God has no place in the life of a Christian. In fact, the other Scriptures lead us to believe that the apparent dilemma is not solved by saying that we shouldn't fear God. If we look closer at the verse in 1 John 4, we see that Paul is talking about being afraid: we shouldn't be afraid of God, because when we love Him we will not be afraid of Him. Ephesians 5, Hebrews 12, and other verses are talking about reverence for God. Many times, this reverence is linked to God's holiness. God is an awesome God, which is something we need to be mindful of as Christians. C.S. Lewis said that Aslan "is not a tame lion"; I often feel that way about God as well. He is to be feared in the sense that His glory, majesty, and holiness should bring us to our knees, should inspire awesome reverence in our hearts and make us think twice about sinning against Him.

I personally find the holiness and awesomeness of God one of the most inspiring things. If anything brings me to my knees in worship, it is the knowledge that God is indescribably great and majestic, dwelling in unapproachable light...and that I can still come near Him, experience His love and grace. That is truly amazing and fills me with worship.

And just in case you thought the fear of God was a negative thing, look at this:
Job 28:28 - "And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; And to depart from evil is understanding.' "
Psalm 25:14 - "The secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him, And He will make them know His covenant."
Psalm 33:18 - "Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear Him, On those who hope for His lovingkindness."
Psalm 34:7 - "The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him, And rescues them."
Psalm 34:9 - "O fear the LORD, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want."
Psalm 103:13 - "Just as a father has compassion on {his} children, So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him."
Psalm 147:11 - "The LORD favors those who fear Him, Those who wait for His lovingkindness."
Proverbs 14:27 - "The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, That one may avoid the snares of death."

I mean, I could go on quite a while with those verses. Check out what the fear of God does in a person's life!! God makes known his covenant to them, His eye is on them, His favor is on them, the angel of the Lord encamps around them, they have no want, God has compassion on them...I mean, come ON!! There is not a single source of blessing in the Scriptures that is mentioned as much as the fear of the Lord!!

To make a long story short, a person cannot dismiss the need to fear God based on 1 John 4:18. To do so would to deprive himself of one of the most essential elements of the Christian life!

Praise God for His awesome power and might, his majestic splendour and indescribable holiness! Let me say with Psalm 33:8: "Let all the earth fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him."

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 03:54 PM
Oh, I'm sorry..I just wanted to clarify that there is a difference between being afraid and reverence. I should have clarified that my timidity comment wasn't inasmuch directed at you per say, but rather just to distinguish that being afraid or timid isn't the same as having reverence.
Cool. Thanks for the clarification.
V

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 04:01 PM
It's not a spirit of timidity though VHayes..it's one of reverence for authority. This type of reverence stems from love..not from fear, and it gives power to a believer. This type of reverence is one of the "seven spirits of God" that the Holy Spirit is made up of.

Stephen, what do you do with all the verses about fear in the word? We can't just throw them out.

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 04:04 PM
Stephen, what do you do with all the verses about fear in the word? We can't just throw them out.

I interpret them appropiately with other scripture. God has the power to condemn, but that doesn't mean that we are to fear this power if our love is perfected in him. Do you agree?

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 04:06 PM
I interpret them appropiately with other scripture. God has the power to condemn, but that doesn't mean that we are to fear this power if our love is perfected in him. Do you agree?

No I don't. There are things about God to fear, in a proper way. Love cast out terror. But that doesn't mean we no longer are to fear. The Greek words are different in the verse Mike quoted than what Jesus used when he taught his disciples to fear God. Jesus taught his disciples to both fear and love God. There is a proper fear and an improper fear, just as there is a proper and improper love. Fear that has torment is not from God. Condemnation has with it an improper fear. How can one come boldly before the throne to obtain mercy if he fears condemnation for that which he needs mercy?

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 04:09 PM
No I don't. There are things about God to fear, in a proper way. Love cast out terror. But that doesn't mean we no longer are to fear. The Greek words are different in the verse Mike quoted than what Jesus used when he taught his disciples to fear God. Jesus taught his disciples to both fear and love God. There is a proper fear and an improper fear, just as there is a proper and improper love. Fear that has torment is not from God.

Well then you're disagreeing with scripture Brother Mark.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a Spirit of fear but of power and love and self-control.

What you're mistaking for "being afraid" is meant as reverence, this reverence comes with loving God as well as others. I respect your opinion on this subject though.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 28th 2009, 04:12 PM
Well then you're disagreeing with scripture Brother Mark.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a Spirit of fear but of power and love and self-control.

I respect your opinion on this subject though.
Friend of I Am, did you see my post a bit earlier in this thread? What do you think?

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 04:16 PM
To fear God is to recognize His soverignty and accept His chastisement.

To love God is to recognize His grace, and accept His mercy.

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 04:18 PM
Friend of I Am, did you see my post a bit earlier in this thread? What do you think?

I believe what I've posted above. There is no need to fear condemnation if we are in him, and we are walking in the spirit. Walking in the spirit produces..joy, peace, longsuffering, etc(Galations 5:22) It also produces love and reverential respect for our creator. The only time fear comes in is when we feel as if we are going to suffer condemnation for disobedience.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 04:18 PM
To fear God is to recognize His soverignty and accept His chastisement.

To love God is to recognize His grace, and accept His mercy.
Great post, Keck! I'll give you reps but wanted to say it publicly as well! I do however feel it is not just the Hebrew view...
V

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 28th 2009, 04:24 PM
To fear God is to recognize His soverignty and accept His chastisement.

To love God is to recognize His grace, and accept His mercy.

Good post. I would say I agree mostly with the above, as it falls in line with having reverence for God's power and authority. You might want to add though that there is not much one can do in life other than accept his chastisement...

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 04:34 PM
Well then you're disagreeing with scripture Brother Mark.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a Spirit of fear but of power and love and self-control.

What you're mistaking for "being afraid" is meant as reverence, this reverence comes with loving God as well as others. I respect your opinion on this subject though.

Well, that disagreeing with scripture might go two ways there Stephen. Jesus taught us to fear God. Proverbs teaches us to fear God. Paul taught us to fear God. As I said, the words are different. Scripture didn't say "reverence" it said "be afraid".

As I said before, there is a difference in a spirit of fear or timidity, of terror, and of good healthy fear. The problem is, we have defined fear to be unhealthy in ALL situations and it's not.

Abraham was rewarded by God because he feared Him and God considered Abraham his friend. There are so many verses on fear it's amazing. Unfortunately, it is vastly misunderstood to the point we try and say "fear doesn't mean fear" when it really does mean fear. BTW, the Greek for for "fear" in the verse you quoted is again not the same word Jesus used when teaching us to fear God. When one looks at the Greek, he gets a much clearer picture of what it means to fear Him.

To keep with what you are saying about fear, one would have to say that Paul and Abraham never made it to maturity because they continued to fear God.

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 04:46 PM
Well, that disagreeing with scripture might go two ways there Stephen. Jesus taught us to fear God. Proverbs teaches us to fear God. Paul taught us to fear God. As I said, the words are different. Scripture didn't say "reverence" it said "be afraid".

As I said before, there is a difference in a spirit of fear or timidity, of terror, and of good healthy fear. The problem is, we have defined fear to be unhealthy in ALL situations and it's not.

Abraham was rewarded by God because he feared Him and God considered Abraham his friend. There are so many verses on fear it's amazing. Unfortunately, it is vastly misunderstood to the point we try and say "fear doesn't mean fear" when it really does mean fear. BTW, the Greek for for "fear" in the verse you quoted is again not the same word Jesus used when teaching us to fear God. When one looks at the Greek, he gets a much clearer picture of what it means to fear Him.

To keep with what you are saying about fear, one would have to say that Paul and Abraham never made it to maturity because they continued to fear God.

The two greatest commands given by Jesus to us Mark are to "Love God, and to Love one another." Thus to be quite honest with you, fear is never the starting or ending point when it comes to having a relationship with God, it is only the starting point regarding one being able to possess God's wisdom. Love is the foundation of all things within God..not fear(i.e. God is love) God bless you.

Stephen

Emanate
Jan 28th 2009, 04:50 PM
The two greatest commands given by Jesus to us Mark are to "Love God, and to Love one another."


Are you trying to put us under these OT commandments found in the law? :rofl:

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 04:54 PM
Are you trying to put us under these OT commandments found in the law? :rofl:

Ha ha..ha...:) Well God is Love so no...there is no law against love..;)

Emanate
Jan 28th 2009, 05:06 PM
Ha ha..ha...:) Well God is Love so no...there is no law against love..;)


True, the law was never agsinst love.;)

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 05:11 PM
Good post. I would say I agree mostly with the above, as it falls in line with having reverence for God's power and authority. They might want to add though that there is not much one can do in life other than accept his chastisement...

Essentially true. But consider this (please bear with me here, there is a point to be made): The hebrew word for fear is "yare", spelled (in Hebrew) yod-resh-alef. 'Yare' can be used to describe an emotional fear, but often in Scripture it is used in relation to God, and describes a certain motivation for certain actions.

The Hebrew pictograph (all Hebrew letters and numbers have meaning) of the "yod" is the hand of God. "Resh" pictures a head. The letter 'alef' is the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet and represents the Almighy God. So the image of "yare" shows the hand of God upon man's head, bringing him under God's authority. So it's no wonder Scripture tells us not to 'yare' man.
You can find this relationship (a Strongs will come in handy) if you look at the relationship betwen the fear of God and His commands in the following verses:

Gen 3:9-11
Exo 1:15-17
Deut 10:12-13, 17-20
Psalm 86:11
Psalm 112:1
Prov 9:10
Ecc 12:13

Psalm 130:1-4 explains why we need not view 'yare' in a negaitive way.

OK, on to the chastising. The Hebrew word used for this term is "yasar". The pictograph shows a hand encircling a head. It literally means 'to turn the head'. You'll find it translated in your Bible as 'chastise', 'punish' or 'correct'. The method of teaching is to teach by discipline. Here are some verses you can find 'yasar' in:

Deut 8:5
Pro 19:18
Psalm 94:12

Yasar is a common word in the Bible. It is important to have the correct view. As with Psalm 94:12, we should read the English words "chasten" and "discipline" and not arch our backs in opposition to the implcations. God's chastening hand is loving and graceful. We need to accept 'yasar' (as I pointed out in the post) as a gift from God.

So, considering that 'yasar' literally means 'to turn the head', can you see that the term 'stiff necked' is treated as an act of rebellion by God? In the end, we really do have a choice. We can either accept 'yasar' as a gift from God and learn how to follow His ways, or we can rebel and suffer a far worse consequence. That is why I used the term "accept'.

Thanks!

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 28th 2009, 05:39 PM
Essentially true. But consider this (please bear with me here, there is a point to be made): The hebrew word for chastise is "yare", spelled (in Hebrew) yod-resh-alef. 'Yare' can be used to describe an emotional fear, but often in Scripture it is used in relation to God, and describes a certain motivation for certain actions.

The Hebrew pictograph (all Hebrew letters and numbers have meaning) of the "yod" is the hand of God. "Resh" pictures a head. The letter 'alef' is the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet and represents the Almighy God. So the image of "yare" shows the hand of God upon man's head, bringing him under God's authority. So it's no wonder Scripture tells us not to 'yare' man.
You can find this relationship (a Strongs will come in handy) if you look at the relationship betwen the fear of God and His commands in the following verses:

Gen 3:9-11
Exo 1:15-17
Deut 10:12-13, 17-20
Psalm 86:11
Psalm 112:1
Prov 9:10
Ecc 12:13

Psalm 130:1-4 explains why we need not view 'yare' in a negaitive way.

OK, on to the chastising. The Hebrew word used for this term is "yasar". The pictograph shows a hand encircling a head. It literally means 'to turn the head'. You'll find it translated in your Bible as 'chastise', 'punish' or 'correct'. The method of teaching is to teach by discipline. Here are some verses you can find 'yasar' in:

Deut 8:5
Pro 19:18
Psalm 94:12

Yasar is a common word in the Bible. It is important to have the correct view. As with Psalm 94:12, we should read the English words "chasten" and "discipline" and not arch our backs in opposition to the implcations. God's chastening hand is loving and graceful. We need to accept 'yasar' (as I pointed out in the post) as a gift from God.

So, considering that 'yasar' literally means 'to turn the head', can you see that the term 'stiff necked' is treated as an act of rebellion by God? In the end, we really do have a choice. We can either accept 'yasar' as a gift from God and learn how to follow His ways, or we can rebel and suffer a far worse consequence. That is why I used the term "accept'.

Thanks!

Thank you for that insightful post and lesson in Hebrew. I think it's necessary for me to clarify what I meant though, because I don't think we are entirely on the same page. If God chooses to act in a certain way, one really does not have a choice to avert whatever form of chastisement(or judgement) God intends to use during any type of disciplinary period.

Now where human choice comes in is repentance. We see that even during repentance..God at times still allows his chastisement to be in play.(i.e. Children of Israel wilderness) As you have put it above, being stiff necked will often continue God's chastisement upon a person(or persons). Still, despite whether one repents or not - God's judgement can't be averted regarding a situation -seeing as how when he acts..no one but he can reverse his actions.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 05:40 PM
The two greatest commands given by Jesus to us Mark are to "Love God, and to Love one another." Thus to be quite honest with you, fear is never the starting or ending point when it comes to having a relationship with God, it is only the starting point regarding one being able to possess God's wisdom. Love is the foundation of all things within God..not fear(i.e. God is love) God bless you.

Stephen

I never said we weren't to love Stephen. Jesus also said that we were to fear. Proverbs teaches us that fear IS the starting point in a relationship with a relationship with God. It also teaches us that it (fear) is part of the reason God will share things with us and is one reason Abraham was his friend.

Love is important. So is fear. It takes both Stephen not just one. Jesus taught us to fear God. We should head all his words, not just those that are most important (i.e. loving God).

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 28th 2009, 05:47 PM
I never said we weren't to love Stephen. Jesus also said that we were to fear. Proverbs teaches us that fear IS the starting point in a relationship with a relationship with God. It also teaches us that it (fear) is part of the reason God will share things with us and is one reason Abraham was his friend.

Love is important. So is fear. It takes both Stephen not just one. Jesus taught us to fear God. We should head all his words, not just those that are most important (i.e. loving God).

Proverbs 20:28 Love and faithfulness keep a king safe; through love his throne is made secure.

Friend of I am is correct. Love is the starting and ending point with having a relationship with God and is foundational to maintaining his relationship with his children. He didn't create the earth and establish his relationship with Adam and mankind out of fear. Nor did he send Christ down to earth for men to further be afraid of him, but to demonstrate his love. (Romans 8:38 - 39)

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 05:55 PM
The same thing we do with other verses. Look at it in light of the entire scriptures. You do know the Greek word for fear here means "terror" and the word that Jesus uses when he teaches his disciples to fear God does not mean "terror" right?

They are two different words and mean different things. I would not fear my dad like I would fear hitler. Those are two different types of fear. Perfect love cast out terror. But it does not cast out proper fear.


I think you know that I know the difference. But we can't dismiss the fact that there are some people who are afraid of God.

That was and is my point.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 05:59 PM
I think you know that I know the difference. But we can't dismiss the fact that there are some people who are afraid of God.

That was and is my point.

You are correct. No one can worship a tyrant. If one's image of God is that of a tyrant who terrorizes us, some reprogramming needs to be done.

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 28th 2009, 06:02 PM
I think you know that I know the difference. But we can't dismiss the fact that there are some people who are afraid of God.

That was and is my point.

We can be put in situations where we are distressed, but I don't think distressed necessarily is synonomous with being "fearful" of God. I Imagine Jesus himself being distressed before the crucifixion, but still going on with it because he loved his father. This isn't the same type of fear as "let me save myself" or "let me do something wicked to save myself..no one will know." We see that our love for God and others should overcome this type of anxiety or stress we may have in accomplishing what God wants us to do, and doing what is righteous in God's eyes.

I don't think I've ever met a man who was completely complacent regarding every strenous situation he's been in. I think a certain degree of cautiousnous is actually given to us by God before we go about getting ourselves into difficult situations...or those that may not necessarily be beneficial for us in the end. I would have great hesistancy to follow anyone who goes into a situation with guns blazing, with no sign of caution or counsel before they proceed..think of the story of Gideon..and how God tested Gideon's men...

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 06:07 PM
Proverbs 20:28 Love and faithfulness keep a king safe; through love his throne is made secure.

Friend of I am is correct. Love is the starting and ending point with having a relationship with God and is foundational to maintaining his relationship with his children. He didn't create the earth and establish his relationship with Adam and mankind out of fear. Nor did he send Christ down to earth for men to further be afraid of him, but to demonstrate his love. (Romans 8:38 - 39)

The great men of God all feared Him. Paul and Abraham both made or had comments made about their level of fear of God.


Prov 2:3-5
3 For if you cry for discernment,
Lift your voice for understanding;
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will discern the fear of the Lord,
And discover the knowledge of God.
NASB

An even better proverb...

Prov 14:26
26 In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence,
And his children will have refuge.
NASB

Not in his love, but in proper fear of the Lord can we find strong confidence. That alone would preach a long, long time.

An even better proverb...

Prov 14:27
27 The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
That one may avoid the snares of death.
NASB

And King David's opinion on fearing God...

Ps 25:14
14 The secret of the Lord is for those who fear Him,
And He will make them know His covenant.
NASB

If one truly wants to know God intimately, as Abraham, David and Paul did, one would be wise to fear God in a proper way. Abraham was God's friend and God showed him His covenant. Look at what God himself said about Abraham...

First he tells Abraham not to fear.

Gen 15:1

15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,

"Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great."
NASB

But later He said...

Gen 22:12
12 And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
NASB

We often hear about how the test of Abraham offering Isaac was about faith. But it was also about fear. What impressed God and what came out of God's mouth was "Now I know that you fear God..."

There is and always will be a place for proper fear. There is a fear where God tells us "Do not fear". But there is also a fear where God is very pleased that we have it. Let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 06:20 PM
Thank you for that insightful post and lesson in Hebrew. I think it's necessary for me to clarify what I meant though, because I don't think we are entirely on the same page. If God chooses to act in a certain way, one really does not have a choice to avert whatever form of chastisement(or judgement) God intends to use during any type of disciplinary period.

Now where human choice comes in is repentance. We see that even during repentance..God at times still allows his chastisement to be in play.(i.e. Children of Israel wilderness) As you have put it above, being stiff necked will often continue God's chastisement upon a person(or persons). Still, despite whether one repents or not - God's judgement can't be averted regarding a situation -seeing as how when he acts..no one but he can reverse his actions.

Amazing how God hangs on when we let go, yes? How is that for faithfulness?

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 28th 2009, 06:20 PM
The great men of God all feared Him. Paul and Abraham both made or had comments made about their level of fear of God.


Prov 2:3-5
3 For if you cry for discernment,
Lift your voice for understanding;
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will discern the fear of the Lord,
And discover the knowledge of God.
NASB

An even better proverb...

Prov 14:26
26 In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence,
And his children will have refuge.
NASB

Not in his love, but in proper fear of the Lord can we find strong confidence. That alone would preach a long, long time.

An even better proverb...

Prov 14:27
27 The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
That one may avoid the snares of death.
NASB

And King David's opinion on fearing God...

Ps 25:14
14 The secret of the Lord is for those who fear Him,
And He will make them know His covenant.
NASB

If one truly wants to know God intimately, as Abraham, David and Paul did, one would be wise to fear God in a proper way. Abraham was God's friend and God showed him His covenant. Look at what God himself said about Abraham...

First he tells Abraham not to fear.

Gen 15:1

15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,

"Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great."
NASB

But later He said...

Gen 22:12
12 And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
NASB

We often hear about how the test of Abraham offering Isaac was about faith. But it was also about fear. What impressed God and what came out of God's mouth was "Now I know that you fear God..."

There is and always will be a place for proper fear. There is a fear where God tells us "Do not fear". But there is also a fear where God is very pleased that we have it. Let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You are greatly mistaken with what you believe intimacy with God means, as well as what it means to fear(revere) God. I do agree that reverence is something we need to have for God, specifically his power/sovereignty/authority. But having this type of reverence stems from God's love..as God himself is Love personified(i.e. God is love) That being stated thank you for your input. Although I don't agree with it, I appreciate you going through all the trouble to share your insights on various verses with myself and others. God bless.

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 28th 2009, 06:22 PM
Yes. Amazing how God hangs on when we let go, yes? How is that for faithfulness?

True. But I guess one could say that it was never our faithfulness that brought us to God though, as the faith that we have comes from him...as to each one he gives a measure. God bless.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 06:36 PM
You are greatly mistaken with what you believe intimacy with God means, as well as what it means to fear(revere) God. I do agree that reverence is something we need to have for God, specifically his power/sovereignty/authority. But having this type of reverence stems from God's love..as God himself is Love personified(i.e. God is love) That being stated thank you for your input. Although I don't agree with it, I appreciate you going through all the trouble to share your insights on various verses with myself and others. God bless.

There are plenty more verses out there. When one fears God, God will show him his covenant. Fear is more than revere. Just look it up in the Greek.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 06:39 PM
Psalm 130:1-4 explains why we need not view 'yare' in a negaitive way.

Very good.

Not sure why so many people fight against a proper fear of God. There is cause to fear him and to love him. Both exist. I can give example after example after example of great men of God in scripture that feared Him. Yet, in this thread people say it is a sign of immaturity and that when one understands God completely, he won't fear Him.

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 06:41 PM
True. But I guess one could say that it was never our faithfulness that brought us to God though, as the faith that we have comes from him...as to each one he gives a measure. God bless.

Since Hs is the Creator, He gave us everything, including free will. I'm not a calvinist. I believe God requires a response. Basically we can either trust Him or our own understandings of things. How we respond to circumstances is a measure of growth.

The worse case scenario is if He just left us alone.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 06:43 PM
Are you afraid to draw near to God, Brother Mark?

I'm not sure by what you are referring to as fear.
V

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 06:52 PM
Are you afraid to draw near to God, Brother Mark?

I'm not sure by what you are referring to as fear.
V

No. Like I said earlier in this thread, if one fears God wrong, how can he draw near in confidence to the throne of grace.

What I am saying is that scripture over and over and over and over and over again talks about fearing God. David feared God. Paul feared God. Abraham feared God. Yet, in this thread we have people saying "Don't fear God".

When one fears God properly, he will draw closer and more intimate with God than otherwise. Abraham, David and Paul are great examples of that.

timmyb
Jan 28th 2009, 06:53 PM
Jesus delight was in the fear of the Lord... Isaiah 11...

He was beloved in the father but he delighted to fear the Lord... So in my humble opinion, to truly love the Lord is to truly fear him in a proper sense... the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, to love the Lord is the first commandment... the fear of the Lord and to Love the Lord must walk hand in hand and if they don't then you have an improper definition of one or both

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 06:54 PM
No. Like I said earlier in this thread, if one fears God wrong, how can he draw near in confidence to the throne of grace.

What I am saying is that scripture over and over and over and over and over again talks about fearing God. David feared God. Paul feared God. Abraham feared God. Yet, in this thread we have people saying "Don't fear God".

When one fears God properly, he will draw closer and more intimate with God than otherwise. Abraham, David and Paul are great examples of that.
Ok - but can you/will you define what you believe that fear to be?

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 07:17 PM
Very good.

Not sure why so many people fight against a proper fear of God. There is cause to fear him and to love him. Both exist. I can give example after example after example of great men of God in scripture that feared Him. Yet, in this thread people say it is a sign of immaturity and that when one understands God completely, he won't fear Him.

I don't know. Perhaps they think the entirety of Godly relationship is wrapped up in that Doobie Brothers song.

As far as maturity is concerned, I'm willing to submit the chosen disciples of Messiah were far more mature than me.

The Greek word for 'fear' is 'phobeo'. In the Greek Septuagint, phobeo is used to describe the Hebrew word for fear, "yare".

In Luke 12:4-12, Jesus says what His friends should fear, and what they shouldn't fear.

(Luk 12:4) "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
(Luk 12:5) "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
(Luk 12:6) "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God.
(Luk 12:7) "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
(Luk 12:8) "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;
(Luk 12:9) but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
(Luk 12:10) "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
(Luk 12:11) "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say;
(Luk 12:12) for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Jesus Himself instructs us Who to fear and who not to fear. It is not immature to obey Jesus.

In Acts 10:1-2, what does Cornelius fear, and based upon that descirption, what did Cornelius do in his relationship between fearing God and God's commands?

(Act 10:1) Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
(Act 10:2) a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Was Corneliius immature? Heaven forbid.

In revelation 19, what does God expect from His bond-servants?

(Rev 19:5) And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."

Does God consider His servants who fear Him immature?

I can't imagine my relationship with God without this element. One of the greatest impressions of Godly fear upon me was when I read Isaiah 6. If I was Isaiah, I'd have his fear myself, no matter what I consider my positional salvation in Messiah to be.

No, it is clear that in Scripture fear is treated as an emotion. Although some may still define fear is something that the wicked do, instead Scripture teaches us the exact opposite - That God's people are the ones who fear Him.

Fearing God is a motivating force for obedience - not for fear of retribution or punishment, but a fear that understands that God is the King of the Univers and as such we rightly and voluntarily should come under His authority. I fear God because He is the King. I fear God because He loves me and knows what's best for me. I fear God because I know that I am His. I fear God because He has forgiven me.

If that makes me immature, then so be it.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 07:20 PM
Aren't you talking about reverence for His power, might and integrity, Keck?

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 07:23 PM
Aren't you talking about reverence for His power, might and integrity, Keck?

I think I answered that in my post above ^^^^ and the previous post.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 07:25 PM
I think I answered that in my post above ^^^^
Well then, consider me slow because I didn't get a clear answer... may I have one now, please?
V

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 07:28 PM
Aren't you talking about reverence for His power, might and integrity, Keck?

Scripture clearly defines fear as an emotional response. Does that answer your question?

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 07:32 PM
Scripture clearly defines fear as an emotional response. Does that answer your question?
No.

Is fear a reverence for and an awe of God? If not, please tell me what it is. I'm not trying to be difficult but I cannot see what else the "fear" would be.

Thanks -
V

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 07:36 PM
Ok - but can you/will you define what you believe that fear to be?

The same way one would fear a loving earthly father. There is great comfort in a father's arms. Yet, we should fear disobedience to him.

Another verse for consideration.

Eccl 12:13-14

13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
NASB

Jesus taught us that we should fear God. Paul taught it. Paul did fear God. I could go on and on with examples. Even King David, who had a heart like God, feared God.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 07:39 PM
I don't know. Perhaps they think the entirety of Godly relationship is wrapped up in that Doobie Brothers song.

As far as maturity is concerned, I'm willing to submit the chosen disciples of Messiah were far more mature than me.

The Greek word for 'fear' is 'phobeo'. In the Greek Septuagint, phobeo is used to describe the Hebrew word for fear, "yare".

In Luke 12:4-12, Jesus says what His friends should fear, and what they shouldn't fear.

(Luk 12:4) "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
(Luk 12:5) "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
(Luk 12:6) "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God.
(Luk 12:7) "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
(Luk 12:8) "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;
(Luk 12:9) but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
(Luk 12:10) "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
(Luk 12:11) "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say;
(Luk 12:12) for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

Jesus Himself instructs us Who to fear and who not to fear. It is not immature to obey Jesus.

In Acts 10:1-2, what does Cornelius fear, and based upon that descirption, what did Cornelius do in his relationship between fearing God and God's commands?

(Act 10:1) Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
(Act 10:2) a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Was Corneliius immature? Heaven forbid.

In revelation 19, what does God expect from His bond-servants?

(Rev 19:5) And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."

Does God consider His servants who fear Him immature?

I can't imagine my relationship with God without this element. One of the greatest impressions of Godly fear upon me was when I read Isaiah 6. If I was Isaiah, I'd have his fear myself, no matter what I consider my positional salvation in Messiah to be.

No, it is clear that in Scripture fear is treated as an emotion. Although some may still define fear is something that the wicked do, instead Scripture teaches us the exact opposite - That God's people are the ones who fear Him.

Fearing God is a motivating force for obedience - not for fear of retribution or punishment, but a fear that understands that God is the King of the Univers and as such we rightly and voluntarily should come under His authority. I fear God because He is the King. I fear God because He loves me and knows what's best for me. I fear God because I know that I am His. I fear God because He has forgiven me.

If that makes me immature, then so be it.

Very well written. That scripture where Jesus said to fear God had a great impact on me. As you say, it is the Greek word "phobio". That means it's strong. Very strong. It is this element of fear that has given me the ability to fear very few things.

There is a proper fear of God and a proper love. Combined, they strengthen and mature believers. Taken alone, either will lead to a ditch and cause problems in some way.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 07:41 PM
I believe the fear was in causing grief to the Father - not fear OF Him. I am in awe of the fact that as powerful as He is, with all that He is and does, yet He loves me and listens to me.

His "discipline" is not punishment - punishment is looking back at and exacting payment for a wrong done, Discipline is looking forward to a lesson learned so we will not repeat the same mistake(s).

I have no fear of my Father - He loves me. I KNOW He will not cause me harm. I respect His authority in both my life and in the world - but that is not the same as being afraid.

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 07:50 PM
No.

Is fear a reverence for and an awe of God? If not, please tell me what it is. I'm not trying to be difficult but I cannot see what else the "fear" would be.

Thanks -
V

I don't mean to be elusive, but God's Word as a way better teacher than I am in how you are to apply fear in relationshp with God...

(Gen 3:9) Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
(Gen 3:10) He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."
(Gen 3:11) And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

(Exo 1:15) Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other was named Puah;
(Exo 1:16) and he said, "When you are helping the Hebrew women to give birth and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live."
(Exo 1:17) But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live.

(Deu 10:10) "I, moreover, stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights like the first time, and the LORD listened to me that time also; the LORD was not willing to destroy you.
(Deu 10:11) "Then the LORD said to me, 'Arise, proceed on your journey ahead of the people, that they may go in and possess the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.'
(Deu 10:12) "Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

(Psa 86:11) Teach me Your way, O LORD; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name.

(Psa 112:1) Praise the LORD! How blessed is the man who fears the LORD, Who greatly delights in His commandments.

(Pro 9:10) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

(Ecc 12:13) The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

Vhayes, can't you see fear as a positive motivator in these verses?

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 07:53 PM
I believe the fear was in causing grief to the Father - not fear OF Him. I am in awe of the fact that as powerful as He is, with all that He is and does, yet He loves me and listens to me.

His "discipline" is not punishment - punishment is looking back at and exacting payment for a wrong done, Discipline is looking forward to a lesson learned so we will not repeat the same mistake(s).

I have no fear of my Father - He loves me. I KNOW He will not cause me harm. I respect His authority in both my life and in the world - but that is not the same as being afraid.

Vhayes, read Isiaih 6:2 to 6:5 and honestly consider how you would respond if you were in Isaiah's place.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 08:18 PM
After he was "cleansed", what did he say?
"Here am I. Send me!"

There is no fear there but rather a boldness knowing He Whom he represented.

ProDeo
Jan 28th 2009, 08:25 PM
It's starts out as reverence and then it should eventually move to a loving relationship with reverence still existing. I don't think fear of condemnation should be anywhere present in a perfect loving relationship. Reverence is not the same as being afraid of God. We can have respect for God's power and authority and at the same time love him.
The closest example that comes to mind is the parent-child relationship. Children can love and fear parents at the same time. Fear in the sense of admiration, respect all the way to fear for punishment. In reverse a parent loves his child no matter what even when the parent punishes the child for his own good.

Ed

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 08:27 PM
The same way one would fear a loving earthly father. There is great comfort in a father's arms. Yet, we should fear disobedience to him.

Another verse for consideration.

Eccl 12:13-14

13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
NASB

Jesus taught us that we should fear God. Paul taught it. Paul did fear God. I could go on and on with examples. Even King David, who had a heart like God, feared God.

Is God going to do anything that is not for my complete and utter good?

Maybe you should write out clear definition of what each of the types of fear you are talking about.


Fear-terror-afraid-boogeyman? I hide-
Fear-reverance-awe-then sings my soul-how great Thou Art?-I seek

Why would I fear disobedience to Him? What is He going to do to me? Will He correct me? Glory Halleluia

If I disobey on purpose, I don't know his love for me. I am selfish and and yes immature. If I disobey without knowing it or out of stupidity, He is going to fix it.
Thou He slay me I will Trust in Him.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 08:37 PM
Is God going to do anything that is not for my complete and utter good?

Maybe you should write out clear definition of what each of the types of fear you are talking about.


Fear-terror-afraid-boogeyman? I hide-
Fear-reverance-awe-then sings my soul-how great Thou Art?-I seek

Why would I fear disobedience to Him? What is He going to do to me? Will He correct me? Glory Halleluia

If I disobey on purpose, I don't know his love for me. I am selfish and and yes immature. If I disobey without knowing it or out of stupidity, He is going to fix it.
Thou He slay me I will Trust in Him.


Fear also will lead one to obedience. It's more than awe and reverence. The Greek words are far more than that. But it doesn't mean terror either.

Yes, fearing disobedience is part of it. That's what Jesus taught. Thing is, Paul spoke of fear and trembling. So it was more than awe and reverence. But in it is not terror. God is not a tyrant and not to be feared in that way. Like Moses said to Israel "Do not fear". God himself told Abraham not to fear, then praised him for fearing Him.

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 08:41 PM
Fear also will lead one to obedience. It's more than awe and reverence. The Greek words are far more than that. But it doesn't mean terror either.

Yes, fearing disobedience is part of it. That's what Jesus taught. Thing is, Paul spoke of fear and trembling. So it was more than awe and reverence. But in it is not terror. God is not a tyrant and not to be feared in that way. Like Moses said to Israel "Do not fear". God himself told Abraham not to fear, then praised him for fearing Him.



OK now tell me what it is?:hmm:

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 08:42 PM
After he was "cleansed", what did he say?
"Here am I. Send me!"

There is no fear there but rather a boldness knowing He Whom he represented.

Boldness and fear go hand in hand. Here's what Paul said...

1 Cor 2:1-5
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. 4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
NASB

Eph 6:5

5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;
NASB

Phil 2:12

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
NASB

We balance it with what the Hebrew writer says...

Heb 12:21-24
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I am full of fear and trembling." 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
NASB

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 08:43 PM
Does fear lead to obedience because of the consequences or because God will stop loving me? or is that the consequence?

Might need to repost the OP.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 08:47 PM
OK now tell me what it is?:hmm:

Like a child should fear a loving father. He knows he is safe with his father. But he also knows disobedience will bring chastisement. There is fear to disobey. But in disobedience, we know the kindness of the Lord leads us to repentance. To one who is prodigal, we preach kindess. To one who is right, we preach fear. Though like Jonah, there may be a time to preach for to the disobedient.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 08:48 PM
Does fear lead to obedience because of the consequences or because God will stop loving me? or is that the consequence?

Might need to repost the OP.

Jesus did not stop loving the rich young ruler that disobeyed him. Fear and love coexist. It is not one or the other. Nor do I need to fear losing God's love. I fear God.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 08:50 PM
i still need a definition of what posters are saying "fear" is exactly - fear of retribution or punishment?

When I was a child and even as a teen, I feared making my mother sad by my behavior but I didn't fear what she would "do" to me because I KNEW she would never do anything to me that didn't involve her love and my ultimate good.

I need help with what you all think Fear is, exactly.

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 08:50 PM
Jesus did not stop loving the rich young ruler that disobeyed him. Fear and love coexist. It is not one or the other. Nor do I need to fear losing God's love. I fear God.


Over my head Brother Mark. I agree that a child should fear a loving father but I don't believe an adult should. I no more fear my dad than a marshmellow? He has proven over and over that he never did anything except for my good.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 08:57 PM
Over my head Brother Mark. I agree that a child should fear a loving father but I don't believe an adult should. I no more fear my dad than a marshmellow? He has proven over and over that he never did anything except for my good.

Yet, we see that Abraham feared God, that Paul did, and that David did. Have any of us matured past them so that we no longer need fear Him? That's my point in this thread. I don't see fear as something only a child needs but rather something that as one matures in Christ, he will have more fear, not less. But it will be the right kind of fear.

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 08:58 PM
Very good.

Not sure why so many people fight against a proper fear of God. There is cause to fear him and to love him. Both exist. I can give example after example after example of great men of God in scripture that feared Him. Yet, in this thread people say it is a sign of immaturity and that when one understands God completely, he won't fear Him.

Why didn't Adam have any fear of God before the fall?

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 08:59 PM
Yet, we see that Abraham feared God, that Paul did, and that David did. Have any of us matured past them so that we no longer need fear Him? That's my point in this thread. I don't see fear as something only a child needs but rather something that as one matures in Christ, he will have more fear, not less. But it will be the right kind of fear.
What is the "right kind" of fear?

I'm not being obtuse (well, maybe I am but it's certainly not intentional).
V

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 09:04 PM
i still need a definition of what posters are saying "fear" is exactly - fear of retribution or punishment?

When I was a child and even as a teen, I feared making my mother sad by my behavior but I didn't fear what she would "do" to me because I KNEW she would never do anything to me that didn't involve her love and my ultimate good.

I need help with what you all think Fear is, exactly.

Fear is a multifacited emotion. First, we don't fear God as we fear a tyrant. Let's just lay that aside. We fear what Hilter would do to us. We don't fear what God would do to us in that way.

There is a great danger in having NO fear of the Lord. Look at the Greek and Hebrew definitions of the word fear that God chose to use in scripture. They are rather enlightening. Unfortunately for us, English is not very precise when it comes to fear or love. Yet we know there are different kinds of love.

We don't fear hell as believers, at least I don't. But I do fear losing power through disobedience. I fear losing intimacy. I fear the hand of God on my behind (though I see a clear difference in punishment vs chastisement. Hell is punishment. Discipline, IMO, is not punishment.) God praised Abraham for fearing him enough to offer his son Isaac. What an amazing thing! God praised Abraham's faith in the beginning but he praised his fear later. That should tell us a LOT about what God values as we grow.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 09:06 PM
What is the "right kind" of fear?

I'm not being obtuse (well, maybe I am but it's certainly not intentional).
V

V, the best thing I can tell you is to look up many of the verses on fear. There are hundreds of them where we are told to fear God. Look at the Hebrew and the Greek.

My above post goes into it a little better. Israel should have feared God then there would have been no need to fear the Babylonians. Fear God and then you will fear nothing else.

A proper fear of God will drive you to him. An improper fear will drive you away from him. Fear that has torment is not from the Lord for the saved man. For instance, I have no fear of punishment from an officer of the law because I haven't broken the law. For the law breaker, he has a different kind of fear. That man should fear hell and punishment. But for the one who is in right standing, the fear is different but it leads to obedience.

Many people are in awe but that awe doesn't lead to obedience. People are in awe of the president, but they don't listen to him and obey him. Fear has with it an emotion. The best thing I can describe as is the fear to be disobedient to God. Fear of God is to hate evil. It is many things. The problem in this thread is that many folks see fear as a sign of immaturity. Yet, I see it as a sign of maturity because in scripture, the most mature men/women feared God.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 09:10 PM
Why didn't Adam have any fear of God before the fall?

If he would have had proper fear, he would not have fallen. ;)

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 09:22 PM
If he would have had proper fear, he would not have fallen. ;)

The bible doesn't mention anything about Adam having fear before his initial fall and disobedience, it does mention Adam and Eve having fear after it though...

Genesis 3:6-3:13
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.” And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

So the knowledge of being deceived and being afraid of God didn't come into the garden until after disobedience and sin entered man. Fear of God itself only exists because of sin. If we strive to do what is right..and have faith in God..there is no need to be afraid of him. We should be able to step boldly before God, with the assumption that we have not done anything wrong in his presence...and with the knowledge that God himself being a loving Father will take the opportunity to correct us of anything we need assistance in during our walks in a loving manner. Grace. Stephen

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 09:31 PM
The bible doesn't mention anything about Adam having fear before his initial fall and disobedience, it does mention Adam and Eve having fear after it though...

Genesis 3:6-3:13
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.” And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

So the knowledge of being deceived and being afraid of God didn't come into the garden until after disobedience and sin entered man. Fear of God itself only exists because of sin. If we strive to do what is right..and have faith in God..there is no need to be afraid of him. We should be able to step boldly before God, with the assumption that we have not done anything wrong in his presence...and with the knowledge that God himself being a loving Father will take the opportunity to correct us of anything we need assistance in during our walks in a loving manner. Grace. Stephen

They had an improper fear Stephen because it drove them away from God. It was a shameful fear too. We all know that kind of fear.

Was Abraham immature for fearing God when he offered Isaac?

Was Paul immature when he preached in fear and trembling?

Was David immature when he wrote of fearing God in the Psalms?

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 09:48 PM
After he was "cleansed", what did he say?
"Here am I. Send me!"

There is no fear there but rather a boldness knowing He Whom he represented.

Isaiah was speaking to his commission of being God's messenger, not his fear of God.

VHayes, you still have a fleshy exterior that continues to sin, as we all do. Do you mean to tell me that if you faced God Almighty on the throne, and saw His righteousness compared to every unholy word, unholy thought and unholy fleshy action of yours, you wouldn't feel doomed at least in the flesh? You do realize what happens when you die and meet God? He circumcises your flesh, the sinful part of you. There is a difference between confidence in salvation, having boldness in boasting of God, and boasting of yourself. My confidence is in God, not myself.

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 09:51 PM
Is God going to do anything that is not for my complete and utter good?

Maybe you should write out clear definition of what each of the types of fear you are talking about.


Fear-terror-afraid-boogeyman? I hide-
Fear-reverance-awe-then sings my soul-how great Thou Art?-I seek

Why would I fear disobedience to Him? What is He going to do to me? Will He correct me? Glory Halleluia

If I disobey on purpose, I don't know his love for me. I am selfish and and yes immature. If I disobey without knowing it or out of stupidity, He is going to fix it.
Thou He slay me I will Trust in Him.


The problem is your casting fear in a negative light. That's not the intent here.

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 09:52 PM
Fear is a multifacited emotion. First, we don't fear God as we fear a tyrant. Let's just lay that aside. We fear what Hilter would do to us. We don't fear what God would do to us in that way.

There is a great danger in having NO fear of the Lord. Look at the Greek and Hebrew definitions of the word fear that God chose to use in scripture. They are rather enlightening. Unfortunately for us, English is not very precise when it comes to fear or love. Yet we know there are different kinds of love.

We don't fear hell as believers, at least I don't. But I do fear losing power through disobedience. I fear losing intimacy. I fear the hand of God on my behind (though I see a clear difference in punishment vs chastisement. Hell is punishment. Discipline, IMO, is not punishment.) God praised Abraham for fearing him enough to offer his son Isaac. What an amazing thing! God praised Abraham's faith in the beginning but he praised his fear later. That should tell us a LOT about what God values as we grow.

Wow, great post. Very well defined

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 09:54 PM
Sorry, Keck, you lost me about half way through.

Yes, I would be in utter and complete awe at God Almighty on His throne. But there would be NO fear that He would harm me because I am, by the grace of God, saved by Jesus and HE would be standing up and saying I was accepted by His blood.

It has nothing to do with me; it has EVERYTHING to do with Jesus.

Is that what you were saying? If so, I agree. :D
V

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 09:54 PM
The bible doesn't mention anything about Adam having fear before his initial fall and disobedience, it does mention Adam and Eve having fear after it though...


Well, guess what? You're fallen, like Adam. And as long as you're wearing a suit of dirt, you're still sinning and in need of God's undeserved favor and mercy.

If the seraphim, who could be in the physical presence of the Father, hid their eyes and feet in humility, how much more will we humble ourselves before God?

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 09:59 PM
Sorry, Keck, you lost me about half way through.

Yes, I would be in utter and complete awe at God Almighty on His throne. But there would be NO fear that He would harm me because I am, by the grace of God, saved by Jesus and HE would be standing up and saying I was accepted by His blood.

It has nothing to do with me; it has EVERYTHING to do with Jesus.

Is that what you were saying? If so, I agree. :D
V

How many times has the Bible told of a man or woman who met God, and marveled that he / she lived? What kind of fear do you think God was trying to discribe to us in those Scriptures? The Bible tells us when Yeshua comes back, every knee will bow. I guarantee you that won't be out of mass 'reverence.'

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 10:00 PM
The Bible tells us when Yeshua comes back, every knee will bow. I guarantee you that won't be out of mass 'reverence.'

Right. Had God meant reverence, he would have used that word. ;)

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 10:01 PM
Sorry, Keck, you lost me about half way through.

Yes, I would be in utter and complete awe at God Almighty on His throne. But there would be NO fear that He would harm me because I am, by the grace of God, saved by Jesus and HE would be standing up and saying I was accepted by His blood.

It has nothing to do with me; it has EVERYTHING to do with Jesus.

Is that what you were saying? If so, I agree. :D
V

Vhayes, you're speaking to your spiritual salvation. That's not the issue here.

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 10:02 PM
They had an improper fear Stephen because it drove them away from God. It was a shameful fear too. We all know that kind of fear.

Was Abraham immature for fearing God when he offered Isaac?

Was Paul immature when he preached in fear and trembling?

Was David immature when he wrote of fearing God in the Psalms?

Umm, I think you missed that one a bit. Fear is only present after disobedience took place in the Garden. Adam and Eve had no fear of God beforehand..due to not having knowledge of good and evil. Once the knowledge of good and evil came about from their disobedience, so did the fear of consequences regarding disobedience. Not much more for me to say to you on this one, so I think I'll back out of this discussion for now. You're welcome to post a reply if you want though. God bless.

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 10:05 PM
How many times has the Bible told of a man or woman who met God, and marveled that he / she lived? What kind of fear do you think God was trying to discribe to us in those Scriptures? The Bible tells us when Yeshua comes back, every knee will bow. I guarantee you that won't be out of mass 'reverence.'

They'd only be afraid if they've commited evil and were rebelling. Jesus was/is an approachable man, and I imagine he'd be approachable as well in the next life regardless of what form he comes in. The Apostle Paul states that we are not the type that shrink back from God in his epistles, so we shouldn't be fearful in any sense. If anything..we will be like him when we see him.(1 John 3:3) That's the purifying aspect of being in God's presence..we will no longer have anything to be afraid of, because we will be exactly like him.

Vhayes
Jan 28th 2009, 10:08 PM
Right. Had God meant reverence, he would have used that word. ;)
I thought Praise was the word used... not fear.

Never mind - I can't seem to wrap my head around what you all are saying. i DO hold God in awe - I DO respect His power - I DO fear being a disappointment to him - but I don't fear at all what He will do to me. I'm His child and He loves me.

By the way - thanks to all for the polite discussion -
V

stillforgiven
Jan 28th 2009, 10:11 PM
Very good.

Not sure why so many people fight against a proper fear of God. There is cause to fear him and to love him. Both exist. I can give example after example after example of great men of God in scripture that feared Him. Yet, in this thread people say it is a sign of immaturity and that when one understands God completely, he won't fear Him.

Will you please list some of those scriptures? Just the text. I can look them up for myself. I know for a fact that my fear of God is not the good kind, but the kind that makes it hard to believe in His love. Thanks.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 10:14 PM
I thought Praise was the word used... not fear.

Never mind - I can't seem to wrap my head around what you all are saying. i DO hold God in awe - I DO respect His power - I DO fear being a disappointment to him - but I don't fear at all what He will do to me. I'm His child and He loves me.

By the way - thanks to all for the polite discussion -
V

I was referring to all the times God used the word fear in scripture. He used it repeatedly.

Anyway, what we are speaking of is not fear about him not loving us. That's settled. He loves us. As for fear disappointing him, that's impossible because he knows the end from the beginning. We can't disappointment as he already knows what we will do and be.

He will however chastise us, not be as intimate, allow consequences to enter our life. Thing is, we need to be very careful about trying to redefine the word fear, don't you think?

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 10:17 PM
Right. Had God meant reverence, he would have used that word. ;)

I think "reverence" in hebrew is expressed as 'shachah'. It's used when one finds themself in the midst of another one who is superior and demonstrates it by prostrating themselves. The english translatoin doesn't quite give the hebrew term justice:

(1Ki 1:31) Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the ground, and prostrated (shachah) herself before the king and said, "May my lord King David live forever."

(2Sa 9:6) And Mephibosheth the son of Jonathan the son of Saul came to David and fell on his face, and prostrated (shachah)himself. And David said, Mephibosheth! And he said, Behold, your servant.

"Reverence" is not the idea God is conveying to us when He says to fear Him. Men have reverence for each other. God is Holy, set apart for something much greater and deeper than 'reverence' from us. God has reserved for Him what we give no one else. Fear. Godly fear, or He would have used "shachah" in Scripture. But the Bible uses 'yare', which describes a much, much deeper sense of fear than bowing to some human superior, a fear that only should reserved for our relationship with God.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 10:18 PM
Will you please list some of those scriptures? Just the text. I can look them up for myself. I know for a fact that my fear of God is not the good kind, but the kind that makes it hard to believe in His love. Thanks.

If that is so, then I would advise you to look at other passages besides fear. For the first 5 years after I was saved, God would only allow me to read about his love and mercy. It was only after having those settled that he began to teach me about fear. Perfect love casts out fear (terror). That verse has been quoted and it is quite true. Focus on his love and allow it to transform your mind. Capture those fearful thoughts and bring them under captivity and reprogram yourself. IMO, this thread isn't the best place for you.

Jesus told his disciples "There are things I long to tell you but you're not ready". Sometimes, it's best to wait till later to dive into a topic. It was for me. Five years is a long time. But for a long, long time all he would speak to me was grace and love. That's all he would let me study. It radically changed me and my trust in Him.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2009, 10:21 PM
I think "reverence" in hebrew is expressed as 'shachah'. It's used when one finds themself in the midst of another one who is superior and demonstrates it by prostrating themselves. The english translatoin doesn't quite give the hebrew term justice:

(1Ki 1:31) Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the ground, and prostrated (shachah) herself before the king and said, "May my lord King David live forever."

(2Sa 9:6) And Mephibosheth the son of Jonathan the son of Saul came to David and fell on his face, and prostrated (shachah)himself. And David said, Mephibosheth! And he said, Behold, your servant.

"Reverence" is not the idea God is conveying to us when He says to fear Him. Men have reverence for each other. God is Holy, set apart for something much greater and deeper than 'reverence' from us. God has reserved for Him what we give no one else. Fear. Godly fear, or He would have used "shachah" in Scripture. But the Bible uses 'yare', which describes a much, much deeper sense of fear than bowing to some human superior, a fear that only should reserved for our relationship with God.



Very well put. It is easier to get a proper understanding of what God means about fear when one looks at the Hebrew and Greek and sees how he uses those words differently. It's an eye opener. It definitely means fear. But it doesn't mean terror, in the NT. Anyway, some commentaries have done a disservice to us on this topic in an effort to remove the tyrant feeling some have towards God.

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 10:21 PM
They'd only be afraid if they've commited evil and were rebelling. Jesus was/is an approachable man, and I imagine he'd be approachable as well in the next life regardless of what form he comes in. The Apostle Paul states that we are not the type that shrink back from God in his epistles, so we shouldn't be fearful in any sense. If anything..we will be like him when we see him.(1 John 3:3) That's the purifying aspect of being in God's presence..we will no longer have anything to be afraid of, because we will be exactly like him.

I think it would help if you went back a few pages and read what I posted about fear in hebrew context, and it would help bring perspective to my definition of fear. All my subsequent posts are in the context of that original post, so it's possible that just reading one of my later posts could be read out of context.

Evil people have no fear of God. Unless you think Stalin and Hitler were cowering in their bedrooms?

stillforgiven
Jan 28th 2009, 10:23 PM
Does fear lead to obedience because of the consequences or because God will stop loving me? or is that the consequence?

Might need to repost the OP.


i still need a definition of what posters are saying "fear" is exactly - fear of retribution or punishment?

When I was a child and even as a teen, I feared making my mother sad by my behavior but I didn't fear what she would "do" to me because I KNEW she would never do anything to me that didn't involve her love and my ultimate good.

I need help with what you all think Fear is, exactly.

There's still a lot that I haven't got to read through, but these posts show a part of the issue for those not raised in a loving home. If they are raised in a home where an unhappy parent will not speak to the child for a time (love withdrawal) or raise a hand to them in anger, then they grow up not understanding how to trust God's love that others talk about.

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 10:23 PM
One thing I do not fear are the consequences of obeying God. So just think that in reverse and hopefully that will help clarify things.

stillforgiven
Jan 28th 2009, 10:24 PM
If that is so, then I would advise you to look at other passages besides fear. For the first 5 years after I was saved, God would only allow me to read about his love and mercy. It was only after having those settled that he began to teach me about fear. Perfect love casts out fear (terror). That verse has been quoted and it is quite true. Focus on his love and allow it to transform your mind. Capture those fearful thoughts and bring them under captivity and reprogram yourself. IMO, this thread isn't the best place for you.

Jesus told his disciples "There are things I long to tell you but you're not ready". Sometimes, it's best to wait till later to dive into a topic. It was for me. Five years is a long time. But for a long, long time all he would speak to me was grace and love. That's all he would let me study. It radically changed me and my trust in Him.

I will do as you suggest. Thanks.

Friend of I AM
Jan 28th 2009, 10:34 PM
I think one of the thing that hasn't been mentioned is humility. It's interesting, but I think above anything else...God respects those who are humble and contrite in spirit before him..or possess some sort of spirit of humility. I think of how Jacob was humble before God, but showed no fear of him even going as far as wrestling with the angel of God.

Then we have Timothy who was described as timid, but who was also considered humble before him. Perhaps God doesn't look at emotions themselves as they wax and wane with the moon, but perhaps he is more concerned with us having a spirit of humility and love before him.

This might line up with scripture the best..as there are countless examples of men who are considered bold before God(Elijah, Samson, Elisha, etc) and there are those who represent more of a human perceived fearful presence before God. I think the underlying premise is humility and love working through a believer and not their present visible emotions. This is why I believe love is the most important spirit we should have in us when approaching God, regardless of what emotional state we're in or what emotional state others perceive us to be in. If we have his love working through us..then we have no need to be worry about what emotions our flesh are working through us when we approach him.

Grace to all,

Stephen

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 10:48 PM
Yeah, well I don't think Jacob really knew who he was tangleing with until after he got 'zapped' on the thigh. When he realized who he was dealing with and I would imagine his heart skipped a few beats before he declared amazement that he was with God and lived (personally I think he lived because (see John 17:5) it was Yeshua/Jesus, but that's for another thread?).

And remember, this was before the written word, so he didn't even have Scripture to teach him to fear God. Think about that.

So when Abraham spoke to God about how many righteous would save Sodom, was his humilty born out of fear? I think it was.

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 10:55 PM
I was referring to all the times God used the word fear in scripture. He used it repeatedly.

Anyway, what we are speaking of is not fear about him not loving us. That's settled. He loves us. As for fear disappointing him, that's impossible because he knows the end from the beginning. We can't disappointment as he already knows what we will do and be.

He will however chastise us, not be as intimate, allow consequences to enter our life. Thing is, we need to be very careful about trying to redefine the word fear, don't you think?

When I have to chastise my children I am more intimate. They will hear that the discipline was in love.

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 10:56 PM
I thought Praise was the word used... not fear.

Never mind - I can't seem to wrap my head around what you all are saying. i DO hold God in awe - I DO respect His power - I DO fear being a disappointment to him - but I don't fear at all what He will do to me. I'm His child and He loves me.

By the way - thanks to all for the polite discussion -
V


REPS Galore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:pp

mikebr
Jan 28th 2009, 11:10 PM
Will you please list some of those scriptures? Just the text. I can look them up for myself. I know for a fact that my fear of God is not the good kind, but the kind that makes it hard to believe in His love. Thanks.

There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.

:B:mad::confused:pray::pray::pray:I mentioned the use and misuse of scripture and I get my head bit off but this is exactly what I am talking about.

All of my life I held on to this fear,
these thistles and vines that ensnare and entwine what flowers appear.
Its the fear that I'll fall one too many times
Its the fear thar His love is no better than mine
Just as I am, Just as I was
Just as I will be He loves me He does
He showed us the day He shed His own blood
Jesus He loves me, He loves me He does

Just as I Am
Words and Music by Andrew Peterson

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 11:47 PM
well, I'll trust what God says anytime over a musician. LOL. I know a lot of musicians, and I don't trust a one of them

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 11:51 PM
There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.


Well, I guess these ones aren't quite as perfected as some here claim to be.....

(Rev 19:5) And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."

Partaker of Christ
Jan 28th 2009, 11:54 PM
I don't speak of fear (reverence), but of any other type or level of fear 'fright'

Apart from reverence, I cannot believe that when we are all changed into His likeness, that we will have fear.
If we are walking in the Spirit, then we ought have no fear. But if/when we stumble or veer off the path, then that fear (fright) is a tool, to get us back on track.

It is not a fruit of the Spirit, but (as I see it) a rod of correction, whilst we are in this tent.
Fear will drive us to God, or away from God. If we are His children, then it will drive us to Him.

keck553
Jan 29th 2009, 12:06 AM
I don't speak of fear (reverence), but of any other type or level of fear 'fright'

Apart from reverence, I cannot believe that when we are all changed into His likeness, that we will have fear.
If we are walking in the Spirit, then we ought have no fear. But if/when we stumble or veer off the path, then that fear (fright) is a tool, to get us back on track.

It is not a fruit of the Spirit, but (as I see it) a rod of correction, whilst we are in this tent.
Fear will drive us to God, or away from God. If we are His children, then it will drive us to Him.

The NT disagrees with you. Fear didn't drive me to God, or away. It motivated me to obey him though.

By the way, reverence is a different word than fear in both Hebrew and Greek. God chose not to use 'reverence', so I would view that replacement as changing God's words.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 29th 2009, 12:21 AM
The NT disagrees with you. Fear didn't drive me to God, or away. It motivated me to obey him though.

By the way, reverence is a different word than fear in both Hebrew and Greek. God chose not to use 'reverence', so I would view that replacement as changing God's words.

Thanks for that edifying reply.

keck553
Jan 29th 2009, 12:30 AM
Thanks for that edifying reply.

I'm sorry, but words are very, very important, especially the ones God choose to speak to us through. I take them very seriously.

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 01:46 AM
There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love.

:B:mad::confused:pray::pray::pray:I mentioned the use and misuse of scripture and I get my head bit off but this is exactly what I am talking about.

That verse has been explained in this thread already. It is a different kind of fear than the fear Christ taught us to have for Christ.

Was Abraham not perfected in love? Or Paul? They both feared God rightly.

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 01:48 AM
When I have to chastise my children I am more intimate. They will hear that the discipline was in love.

Was God more intimate with Abraham or Lot? Was he more intimate with Moses or Israel? God doesn't have favorites but he does have intimates. Those that fear Him get to know him better, if it is a proper fear. That's why Psalms says he shares His secrets with those that fear Him. He called Abraham his friend, and Abraham feared Him.

Was Abraham wrong to fear God? Was Paul wrong to fear God? Was Jesus wrong to teach his disciples to fear God?

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 01:51 AM
I think one of the thing that hasn't been mentioned is humility. It's interesting, but I think above anything else...God respects those who are humble and contrite in spirit before him..or possess some sort of spirit of humility. I think of how Jacob was humble before God, but showed no fear of him even going as far as wrestling with the angel of God.

Then we have Timothy who was described as timid, but who was also considered humble before him. Perhaps God doesn't look at emotions themselves as they wax and wane with the moon, but perhaps he is more concerned with us having a spirit of humility and love before him.

This might line up with scripture the best..as there are countless examples of men who are considered bold before God(Elijah, Samson, Elisha, etc) and there are those who represent more of a human perceived fearful presence before God. I think the underlying premise is humility and love working through a believer and not their present visible emotions. This is why I believe love is the most important spirit we should have in us when approaching God, regardless of what emotional state we're in or what emotional state others perceive us to be in. If we have his love working through us..then we have no need to be worry about what emotions our flesh are working through us when we approach him.

Grace to all,

Stephen

No one is arguing that fear is more important than love Stephen. Love is the greatest command and always will be. Jacob didn't fear God and that's one thing that got him in a lot of trouble. It's why he lied so much. Elijah didn't fear God and instead, feared Jesebal. Although, I think a close study will reveal Elijah did fear God. Samson didn't fear God and got into trouble big time.

Was Abraham wrong to fear God?

Was Paul wrong to fear God?

Was Jesus wrong to teach his disciples to fear God?

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 01:54 AM
Fear didn't drive me to God, or away. It motivated me to obey him though.

Very, very good. Fear and love are both excellent motivators.


By the way, reverence is a different word than fear in both Hebrew and Greek. God chose not to use 'reverence', so I would view that replacement as changing God's words.Yep. Not to beat a dead horse, but it's worth looking up the Greek and Hebrew words God used to describe fear in the scriptures.

ProDeo
Jan 29th 2009, 09:03 AM
If that is so, then I would advise you to look at other passages besides fear. For the first 5 years after I was saved, God would only allow me to read about his love and mercy. It was only after having those settled that he began to teach me about fear. Perfect love casts out fear (terror). That verse has been quoted and it is quite true. Focus on his love and allow it to transform your mind. Capture those fearful thoughts and bring them under captivity and reprogram yourself. IMO, this thread isn't the best place for you.

Jesus told his disciples "There are things I long to tell you but you're not ready". Sometimes, it's best to wait till later to dive into a topic. It was for me. Five years is a long time. But for a long, long time all he would speak to me was grace and love. That's all he would let me study. It radically changed me and my trust in Him.
I don't think the two of you differ that much ;)

We all fear God, the discussion is about the definition of "proper" fear, as you called it. Let's make a definition of proper fear and see if we can agree. My first try:

The fear of God is the level of understanding of His Being resulting in amazement, praise, love and trembling respect. The more we learn, the more each of the 4 listed ingredients will increase.

Ed

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2009, 02:12 PM
No one is arguing that fear is more important than love Stephen. Love is the greatest command and always will be. Jacob didn't fear God and that's one thing that got him in a lot of trouble. It's why he lied so much. Elijah didn't fear God and instead, feared Jesebal. Although, I think a close study will reveal Elijah did fear God. Samson didn't fear God and got into trouble big time.

Was Abraham wrong to fear God?

Was Paul wrong to fear God?

Was Jesus wrong to teach his disciples to fear God?

The problem Mark is that your testimony is a misguided one. Scripture from Genesis has already been posted demonstrating that fear in itself is the result of sin. There was no fear of God in the garden, as Adam and Eve had nothing to fear since they had not disobeyed God. Once "sin" or disobedience came into play..then fear came in.

Perfect Love casts out fear Brother Mark. This doesn't mean that we can't fear God and Love him at the same time, but it does mean that our relationship with God can't be perfected through fear...as fear is the result of one who fears punishment from disobedience. Remember, God is not the embodiment of fear, but the embodiment of love(i.e. 1 John 4:8 God is Love) If we are truly striving to be like him in our walks..then we should be full of Love, not full of fear. (1 John 3:2 When we see him we will be like him)

Any fear we have of God should gradually diminish as we become closer to him and move into the fullness of his grace.

God bless,

Stephen

BroRog
Jan 29th 2009, 02:44 PM
I would propose that fearing God makes sense if we ask ourselves who we fear the most: God or man. In John's Gospel, Jesus said that it was impossible for some of the Pharisees to believe that Jesus was the messiah because they feared man more than they feared God.

James epistle dealt with folks who feared the rich more than they feared God.

In some sense, if I fear men more than I fear God, I give the impression that I think men can do me more harm than God, which reflects an attitude that God is much farther away and out of reach, than the man standing right in front of me.

Jesus warned his disciples that all man can do is kill your body. But God should be feared more than man because God can destroy both body AND soul.

The following is a sermon I transcribed that goes into more detail.

Those who belong to God fear God. (http://www.users.qwest.net/%7Erogrdl123/Feargod.htm)

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 29th 2009, 02:49 PM
I would propose that fearing God makes sense if we ask ourselves who we fear the most: God or man. In John's Gospel, Jesus said that it was impossible for some of the Pharisees to believe that Jesus was the messiah because they feared man more than they feared God.

James epistle dealt with folks who feared the rich more than they feared God.

In some sense, if I fear men more than I fear God, I give the impression that I think men can do me more harm than God, which reflects an attitude that God is much farther away and out of reach, than the man standing right in front of me.

Jesus warned his disciples that all man can do is kill your body. But God should be feared more than man because God can destroy both body AND soul.

The following is a sermon I transcribed that goes into more detail.

Those who belong to God fear God. (http://www.users.qwest.net/%7Erogrdl123/Feargod.htm)

I understand what you are saying..but remember the two most important commands(love God, love one another)

If we place the Love God as the highest command on our list(and it should be it..as it was stated to be so by the God of the old and New Testament)

Then we shouldn't have any problem putting men before God. To be quite frank..our love of God is most demonstrative during the second command...as oppossed to the first. There are many people out there who say they love God..but don't demonstrate love for God by the way they treat their bretheren within their walk.

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2009, 02:59 PM
I understand what you are saying..but remember the two most important commands(love God, love one another)

If we place the Love God as the highest command on our list(and it should be it..as it was stated to be so by the God of the old and New Testament)

Then we shouldn't have any problem putting men before God. To be quite frank..our love of God is most demonstrative during the second command...as oppossed to the first. There are many people out there who say they love God..but don't demonstrate love for God by the way they treat their bretheren within their walk.

I have actually found that people who have less fears about God, are actually less likely to sin than those who have much fear of God. We see in the Garden that Adam and Eve continued to sin after their disobedience, in hopes of covering up the initial disobedience they partook in.

I think those who love and respect me in life, are more than likely to demonstrate kindness and good will in their walk..due to having a sincere desire to not hurt my feelings within my walk. Now kindness doesn't always come in the form of saying everything we like to hear, but it's still kindness none the less. God bless.

keck553
Jan 29th 2009, 04:28 PM
Ok, now I am confused. On poster says they can face God with confidence because they are without sin, and then someone else claims the ones they know who 'fear' God sin more than the ones who don't. (with the implication that even the ones that don't sin).

Yes, you can hide behind Jesus for your sin, but rebellion is another thing. The Bible tells us how to respond to God, and throwing away something causes discomfort is still rebellion.

Now I have heard opinions and opinions, but I am still waiting for someone's response to all the Scripture I posted.

I think I'll start a thread on 'love' and see if things go any different.

Vhayes
Jan 29th 2009, 04:34 PM
Ok, now I am confused. On poster says they can face God with confidence because they are without sin, and then someone else claims the ones they know who 'fear' God sin more than the ones who don't. (with the implication that even the ones that don't sin).

Yes, you can hide behind Jesus for your sin, but rebellion is another thing. The Bible tells us how to respond to God, and throwing away something causes discomfort is still rebellion.

Now I have heard opinions and opinions, but I am still waiting for someone's response to all the Scripture I posted.

I think I'll start a thread on 'love' and see if things go any different.
That's unfair, Keck. I never said I was without sin - I said my sins were covered by Jesus.

I follow my Lord and Savior out of love, not out of fear. Why would I fear someone who loves me? Even when i make mistakes (and I certainly do) He corrects me in love - He doesn't want me to shy away in fear. As a matter of fact, I think that would break His heart.

Perfect love casts out fear. That doesn't mean i don't hold God in awe and wonder - it just means I approach Him with confidence. And that's all scriptural.

V

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 29th 2009, 04:51 PM
Ok, now I am confused. On poster says they can face God with confidence because they are without sin, and then someone else claims the ones they know who 'fear' God sin more than the ones who don't. (with the implication that even the ones that don't sin).

Yes, you can hide behind Jesus for your sin, but rebellion is another thing. The Bible tells us how to respond to God, and throwing away something causes discomfort is still rebellion.

Now I have heard opinions and opinions, but I am still waiting for someone's response to all the Scripture I posted.

I think I'll start a thread on 'love' and see if things go any different.

Don't think what was said was too complicated. Basically what I think Friend of I AM stated was that the closer we get to God, the less we should fear him..as God is not full of fear or sin.(1 John 4:18) He also stated when we see God, we will be like him..thus we too should no longer be full of fear or sin(1:John 3:2)

Now if you believe that God is full of fear and sin then perhaps we need to stop this discussion all together and open up another thread. All this being said, thanks for discussing the topic with me. God bless.

Just_Another_Guy
Jan 29th 2009, 04:56 PM
That's unfair, Keck. I never said I was without sin - I said my sins were covered by Jesus.

I follow my Lord and Savior out of love, not out of fear. Why would I fear someone who loves me? Even when i make mistakes (and I certainly do) He corrects me in love - He doesn't want me to shy away in fear. As a matter of fact, I think that would break His heart.

Perfect love casts out fear. That doesn't mean i don't hold God in awe and wonder - it just means I approach Him with confidence. And that's all scriptural.

V

Well sometimes we break the hearts of the ones we love. I often times think that moreso than anything, this is true as oppossed to what you've stated above. Sometimes walking away is a greater sign of love than actually staying in a difficult situation, one which no positive outcome will come about for anybody..particularly those things and situations that will do nothing but cause harm to ourselves and other people. Thanks for your input.

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 05:26 PM
I have actually found that people who have less fears about God, are actually less likely to sin than those who have much fear of God. We see in the Garden that Adam and Eve continued to sin after their disobedience, in hopes of covering up the initial disobedience they partook in.

You mean people like Abraham and Paul? They both feared God. Were they wrong to fear God?

Scripture says the fear of the Lord will keep a man from sin. Is that verse wrong?

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 05:29 PM
Why would I fear someone who loves me?

Because the bible says to fear God.


Perfect love casts out fear. That doesn't mean i don't hold God in awe and wonder - it just means I approach Him with confidence. And that's all scriptural.

VAgain, I would encourage you to look at the different Greek words used for fear in the NT and in the Hebrew. The word for fear in that verse you quote is a different word than when Jesus taught his disciples to fear God.

Think about this... Jesus taught his disciples that God loved them. Then he taught them to fear God. He taught both. One can fear God and still approach him boldly as commanded in Hebrews.

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 05:30 PM
Don't think what was said was too complicated. Basically what I think Friend of I AM stated was that the closer we get to God, the less we should fear him..as God is not full of fear or sin.(1 John 4:18) He also stated when we see God, we will be like him..thus we too should no longer be full of fear or sin(1:John 3:2)

Now if you believe that God is full of fear and sin then perhaps we need to stop this discussion all together and open up another thread. All this being said, thanks for discussing the topic with me. God bless.

I will keep asking these questions about walking close with God...

Was Abraham wrong for fearing God?

Was Paul wrong for fearing God?

Did there fear increase or decrease the closer they got with the Lord?

When Abraham began his walk, God praised his faith. When Abraham offered up Isaac, God praised Abraham's fear of the Lord.

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2009, 06:14 PM
I will keep asking these questions about walking close with God...

Was Abraham wrong for fearing God?

Was Paul wrong for fearing God?

Did there fear increase or decrease the closer they got with the Lord?

When Abraham began his walk, God praised his faith. When Abraham offered up Isaac, God praised Abraham's fear of the Lord.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat these questions Brother Mark, fear is not the starting point and ending point of God. The fear that you speak of is not what leads people to Christ. Christ never taught "fear one another" or "fear the Lord with all your heart and all your soul" In addition, it has also been pointed out to you that fear in itself never was known by man until the initial sin, thus again signifying that fear unto itself is something that is really in oppossition to the nature of God and those who seek to have a relationship with him.

I don't know why you can't just accept this. No one at anytime has disagreed that fearing the Lord(in a reverential sense) is a bad thing..in fact as you have stated scriptures allude to it above as being a good thing in this earthly walk as it keeps us from sinning and brings about wisdom. But to say that one should continue to grow in fear of God as they grow closer to him is a very inaccurate doctrine. They should grow in love and trust in him, which will cast out any fear of him that they have. In short our fear of God should gradually diminish as we go about in our walk. Thanks for your input once again though.

keck553
Jan 29th 2009, 06:22 PM
That's unfair, Keck. I never said I was without sin - I said my sins were covered by Jesus.

I follow my Lord and Savior out of love, not out of fear. Why would I fear someone who loves me? Even when i make mistakes (and I certainly do) He corrects me in love - He doesn't want me to shy away in fear. As a matter of fact, I think that would break His heart.

Perfect love casts out fear. That doesn't mean i don't hold God in awe and wonder - it just means I approach Him with confidence. And that's all scriptural.

V

We're talking about a different kind of fear I think,

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2009, 06:34 PM
We're talking about a different kind of fear I think,

Yes we're talking about a fear(torment) that draws us closer to God which is not scriptural at all. (tormenting) Fear does not draw one closer to God.

awestruckchild
Jan 29th 2009, 08:52 PM
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I was absolutely terrified and horrified and every other kind of "-ied" when He first showed me He was.
But the more He changed me after that the less and less I came to fear Him. The more I came to understand the enormity of His love and to have that love work in me, the more my fears of His awfulness of might receeded.

I guess what I am tring to say is that it is true in my experience that
1. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

and

2. Perfect love begins to work in us and casts out all fear.

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2009, 09:13 PM
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I was absolutely terrified and horrified and every other kind of "-ied" when He first showed me He was.
But the more He changed me after that the less and less I came to fear Him. The more I came to understand the enormity of His love and to have that love work in me, the more my fears of His awfulness of might receeded.

I guess what I am tring to say is that it is true in my experience that
1. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

and

2. Perfect love begins to work in us and casts out all fear.

Not sure if you were trying to point out a play on words..but just wanted to ask something.

Can one revel and be in awe God's beauty and magnificance as well? I would think so as awe can also be attributed to beauty and magnificance, particularly when Love is involved IMO. Perhaps we stand in "awfulness" of his might before when we were surrounded by the sins of this world and held in bondage to them, but became in awe of his beauty when engulfed by his love and are gradually transformed into the image of his son, perfect vessels of his purity when transformed in his presence...possessing no fear within us.

The English language is indeed a tricky one, often times..the same word or root of a word can reflect different things depending upon what connotation it is used in...

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 09:23 PM
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat these questions Brother Mark, fear is not the starting point and ending point of God. The fear that you speak of is not what leads people to Christ. Christ never taught "fear one another" or "fear the Lord with all your heart and all your soul" In addition, it has also been pointed out to you that fear in itself never was known by man until the initial sin, thus again signifying that fear unto itself is something that is really in oppossition to the nature of God and those who seek to have a relationship with him.

Stephen, no one is saying it is the starting and ending point in our relationship. Neither are we saying love is displaced. What we are saying is that fear has it's place in our relationship with the Lord. Love is the primary command. No one is advocating fear God with all your soul, etc. Nor have we ever said to fear one another. All we are advocating is what Jesus taught... to fear God with a proper fear. Not with terror or timidity as Timothy was warned about. But instead with a fear that strengthens and encourages and is loathe to sin, etc.



I don't know why you can't just accept this. No one at anytime has disagreed that fearing the Lord(in a reverential sense) is a bad thing..in fact as you have stated scriptures allude to it above as being a good thing in this earthly walk as it keeps us from sinning and brings about wisdom. But to say that one should continue to grow in fear of God as they grow closer to him is a very inaccurate doctrine. They should grow in love and trust in him, which will cast out any fear of him that they have. In short our fear of God should gradually diminish as we go about in our walk. Thanks for your input once again though.Fear is more than reverence. It is being afraid, not in terror, but afraid. It isn't inaccurate doctrine Stephen. I can show many, many verses about how it helps our intimacy with the father. Abraham's fear grew. Paul's did too. They also grew in love, and in faith, etc. But fear grew along with those.

Love is the greatest command and always will be. But that doesn't eliminate the need for faith, or hope, or peace, or joy, or any other such thing. Nor does it eliminate the need for being afraid of God in a proper way. It's far more than reverence but nothing like terror.

Again, was Paul wrong to have fear and trembling? (Notice the word trembling. Reverence doesn't make one tremble.)

Abraham was praised by God for fearing him at his greatest moment of triumph.

I can give many examples of great men of God in scripture that feared God. What you guys are suggesting, is that they were wrong to fear him and immature. Yet, they are our greatest examples outside of Christ himself. Are those that have no fear of God more mature than Paul who was in fear and trembling? Or than Abraham who in fear offered up Isaac?

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2009, 09:25 PM
Stephen, no one is saying it is the starting and ending point in our relationship. Neither are we saying love is displaced. What we are saying is that fear has it's place in our relationship with the Lord. Love is the primary command.




Fear is more than reverence. It is being afraid, not in terror, but afraid. It isn't inaccurate doctrine Stephen. I can show many, many verses about how it helps our intimacy with the father. Abraham's fear grew. Paul's did too. They also grew in love, and in faith, etc. But fear grew along with those.

Love is the greatest command and always will be. But that doesn't eliminate the need for faith, or hope, or peace, or joy, or any other such thing. Nor does it eliminate the need for being afraid of God in a proper way. It's far more than reverence but nothing like terror.

Again, was Paul wrong to have fear and trembling? (Notice the word trembling. Reverence doesn't make one tremble.)

Abraham was praised by God for fearing him at his greatest moment of triumph.

Do you believe that there is fear in perfected love..and that one will have fear in them once transformed in his presence?

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 09:28 PM
Yes we're talking about a fear(torment) that draws us closer to God which is not scriptural at all. (tormenting) Fear does not draw one closer to God.

That's what Keck and I have been saying in the whole thread. Terror brings torment and that is not of God! But there is a type of fear, and being afraid of God, that is of God and it will draw you closer to Him. It is not torment, but empowering and will keep one from sin.

Look at the different Greek words and Hebrew words that have been translated fear in scripture. It is an awesome study.

awestruckchild
Jan 29th 2009, 09:41 PM
Not sure if you were trying to point out a play on words..but just wanted to ask something.

Can one revel and be in awe God's beauty and magnificance as well? I would think so as awe can also be attributed to beauty and magnificance, particularly when Love is involved IMO. Perhaps we stand in "awfulness" of his might before when we were surrounded by the sins of this world and held in bondage to them, but became in awe of his beauty when engulfed by his love and are gradually transformed into the image of his son, perfect vessels of his purity when transformed in his presence...possessing no fear within us.

The English language is indeed a tricky one, often times..the same word or root of a word can reflect different things depending upon what connotation it is used in...

Oh yes! I agree and this is a lovely way to put it! It is an awe so great I think at times that it may stop my heart beating!!!

awestruckchild
Jan 29th 2009, 09:43 PM
That's what Keck and I have been saying in the whole thread. Terror brings torment and that is not of God! But there is a type of fear, and being afraid of God, that is of God and it will draw you closer to Him. It is not torment, but empowering and will keep one from sin.

Look at the different Greek words and Hebrew words that have been translated fear in scripture. It is an awesome study.

I would be very interested in seeing your study on this Mark! Not that you don't have enough to do I am sure but.....pleeeease??

Friend of I AM
Jan 29th 2009, 09:51 PM
That's what Keck and I have been saying in the whole thread. Terror brings torment and that is not of God! But there is a type of fear, and being afraid of God, that is of God and it will draw you closer to Him. It is not torment, but empowering and will keep one from sin.

Look at the different Greek words and Hebrew words that have been translated fear in scripture. It is an awesome study.

You continue to have stated that fear and love existed before in the Garden when disobedience hadn't come into play(i.e. You said Adam and Eve didn't have enough fear of God) and have given the implication that both will exist after one has been transformed to the image of God. That is where I have been having the problem Brother Mark. I don't think having enough fear of God is the problem within our lives, I think having enough love for God is the underlying issue..as love is referenced as the foundational thing within our walk, that which all things stem from..in both the Old and New Testament. Even having a "proper fear" or reverence of God while in our unperfected bodies stems from Love. Remember these things remain, faith, hope and love. And the greatest is love.

All of this being said, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Thank you for your testimony.

Stephen

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 29th 2009, 09:54 PM
You continue to have stated that fear and love existed before in the Garden when disobedience hadn't come into play(i.e. You said Adam and Eve didn't have enough fear of God) and have given the implication that both will exist after one has been transformed to the image of God. That is where I have been having the problem Brother Mark. I don't think having enough fear of God is the problem within our lives, I think having enough love for God is the underlying issue..as love is referenced as the foundational thing within our walk, that which all things stem from..in both the Old and New Testament. Even having a "proper fear" or reverence of God while in our unperfected bodies stems from Love. Remember these things remain, faith, hope and love. And the greatest is love.

All of this being said, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Thank you for your testimony.

Stephen
2 Corinthians 7:1 says this: "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Don't you find it interesting that it doesn't say "perfecting holiness in the love of God" ?

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 10:07 PM
You continue to have stated that fear and love existed before in the Garden when disobedience hadn't come into play(i.e. You said Adam and Eve didn't have enough fear of God) and have given the implication that both will exist after one has been transformed to the image of God. That is where I have been having the problem Brother Mark. I don't think having enough fear of God is the problem within our lives, I think having enough love for God is the underlying issue..as love is referenced as the foundational thing within our walk, that which all things stem from..in both the Old and New Testament. Even having a "proper fear" or reverence of God while in our unperfected bodies stems from Love. Remember these things remain, faith, hope and love. And the greatest is love.

All of this being said, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Thank you for your testimony.

Stephen

Never disagreed with you about love Stephen. Just that fear is taught throughout scripture as necessary. The greatest is love. Still, faith and hope are needed, as is fear. Love trumps all but fear has it's proper place.

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 10:11 PM
I would be very interested in seeing your study on this Mark! Not that you don't have enough to do I am sure but.....pleeeease??

Hi Paint. It won't be exhaustive but perhaps I can do a little. I know in this thread it was mentioned some.

Just look at the different times in scripture God uses the word fear, then look at the Greek word for it. There are several different kinds of fear that the scriptures speak about. The verse quoted in this thread where it says "Perfect love casts out fear" speaks of terror. There are other passages that speak of being afraid. Anyway, if you get the time, I would encourage you to look into it. Perhaps I can dig up a few words and post them here.

Proverbs and Psalms are full of verses about fear. God praised Abraham's fear when he offered up Isaac on the altar, not his faith. He praised his faith when he believed years earlier. But when he was older, God praised Abraham's fear.

Vhayes
Jan 29th 2009, 10:15 PM
Mark, I did look up "fear" today in Strongs - I'm still missing something, I think.

I see awe, reverence and being afraid if you are an unbeliever but that's all I see.

Please know, I have a grave respect for God. I bow before Him and hold Him in the highest possible reverence and esteem. But I am not "afraid" of Him.

Can you please define the word that you are using?

Thanks -
V

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2009, 10:39 PM
Mark, I did look up "fear" today in Strongs - I'm still missing something, I think.

I see awe, reverence and being afraid if you are an unbeliever but that's all I see.

Please know, I have a grave respect for God. I bow before Him and hold Him in the highest possible reverence and esteem. But I am not "afraid" of Him.

Can you please define the word that you are using?

Thanks -
V

I mean afraid V. It's stronger than reverence. There is a fear that one has that will keep one from disobedience. Fear to sin and hatred of sin. Look at this verse...


1 Cor 2:1-5
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. 4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
NASB

Paul was with them in fear and trembling. He didn't fear men. But he did fear God.

There's more than just one word for fear. For instance, that verse that says perfect love cast out fear uses one Greek word. Jesus when he taught his twelve to fear God used a different Greek word. The root is phobia. That's a strong, strong word.

The best way I know to describe is like this... it will cause you to be afraid of sin and the consequences, but with that fear comes great power. Notice Paul said he preached in fear and trembling and in power. All three together. They go together.

NT:5401

phobos (fob'-os); from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:

KJV - be afraid, exceedingly, fear, terror.

Here's another place that word is used.

1 Peter 3:15

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
KJV

It's the same exact word.

Now here's another location it's used.

1 John 4:18

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
KJV

So why in one case (Peter) are we told to fear and in another case are we told perfect love cast out fear? Same word. What's up with that? Well, John speaks of a fear that has torment. THAT kind of fear is not from God. But there is a fear of God that will have one afraid to sin, in absolute stunning awe (too small a word) that is so great, it is translated only as be afraid, exceedingly, fear, terror in the KJV. It's never one time translated awe or reverence. That fear will have one walk in power fearing nothing else because the One to be feared is sending us, the One who all should fear is at our backs, we fear Him and no one else, thus we, like Paul speak in fear and trembling.

But that fear also drives us to Him. Because we fear life without Him. We also fear his chastisement. Not his punishment, for hell is punishment not discipline. Israel should have feared God and the babylonians would not have come. There is no need to fear Babylon when one fears God.

Look at the Hebrew word that Keck pointed out above too. There are many words translated fear in English. Some are stronger than others.

When I learned about spiritual authority, I was blown away! I learned about how God used authority and what his plan was for it. I saw how he responded to those that hated authority in scripture. That put a holy fear on me. Now, I am scared to speak out against those in authority because I know how God feels about it. I don't want him spanking me. Having said that, I run boldly before the throne to obtain mercy when I do sin. I confess it and let him love on me a while.

keck553
Jan 29th 2009, 11:35 PM
Mark, I did look up "fear" today in Strongs - I'm still missing something, I think.

I see awe, reverence and being afraid if you are an unbeliever but that's all I see.

Please know, I have a grave respect for God. I bow before Him and hold Him in the highest possible reverence and esteem. But I am not "afraid" of Him.

Can you please define the word that you are using?

Thanks -
V

Vhayes, these other terms could have been used by God in the Bible. They aren't. Does that not indicate something to you?

Vhayes
Jan 29th 2009, 11:38 PM
Vhayes, these other terms could have been used by God in the Bible. They aren't. Does that not indicate something to you?
I think the translators are who chose the word "fear" rather than Awe or Reverence. I could be wrong about that...
V

Partaker of Christ
Jan 29th 2009, 11:38 PM
2 Corinthians 7:1 says this: "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Don't you find it interesting that it doesn't say "perfecting holiness in the love of God" ?

Thanks!

This was the verse I was going to bring up:

This fear (yes we should have) is temporal, were perfect eternal love will cast out.
It is a tool to the flesh, but when we are changed into His likeness, we will be without spot or stain.

This 'fear' is a natural emotion, from the knowledge of good and evil, not a fruit of the Spirit.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

When Adam and Eve had sinned, they had the fear of God in their eyes. Today man is so comfortable with sin, and their is no fear in their eyes.

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 12:29 AM
I think the translators are who chose the word "fear" rather than Awe or Reverence. I could be wrong about that...
V

There are some Greek words used for fear that can't be translated as awe or reverence. Though some of them can.

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 12:30 AM
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

When Adam and Eve had sinned, they had the fear of God in their eyes. Today man is so comfortable with sin, and their is no fear in their eyes.

But that fear drove them away from God not to him. That is NOT the kind of fear that God tells us we should have. Rather, that is the kind of fear that torments and leads us to hide from Him instead of running to him and obeying him.

keck553
Jan 30th 2009, 12:42 AM
I think the translators are who chose the word "fear" rather than Awe or Reverence. I could be wrong about that...
V

I think you may want to check your Strongs, because the word for 'fear' is used in the original hebrew (yare) and Greek (phobeo) text.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 30th 2009, 08:37 PM
But that fear drove them away from God not to him. That is NOT the kind of fear that God tells us we should have. Rather, that is the kind of fear that torments and leads us to hide from Him instead of running to him and obeying him.

Hi again Brother Mark!

Yes it drove them away, but I don't think they knew how God would deal with them. This was the first sin.

Yes, they hid from God, and yes, they tried to cover their shame.
Personally, I think without doubt, that the most important thing that happened, is that they had the fear of God.

I think that the most beautiful thing that happened here, is that God came to look for them. Surely He knew what had already happened, and what they were doing, before He came looking for them.

Brother Mark
Jan 30th 2009, 11:29 PM
Hi again Brother Mark!

Yes it drove them away, but I don't think they knew how God would deal with them. This was the first sin.

Yes, they hid from God, and yes, they tried to cover their shame.
Personally, I think without doubt, that the most important thing that happened, is that they had the fear of God.

I think that the most beautiful thing that happened here, is that God came to look for them. Surely He knew what had already happened, and what they were doing, before He came looking for them.

Indeed, shame came on them and they were afraid too, in a bad way. God in his mercy did not let them stay there but searched them out. Praise God for that!

Here's an OT verse that is interesting.

Ps 2:11

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
KJV

It puts fear in perspective in that along with that fear is trembling. We can say reverence, however, reverence must also have with it trembling and that to me, is more than reverence.

Partaker of Christ
Jan 30th 2009, 11:46 PM
Indeed, shame came on them and they were afraid too, in a bad way. God in his mercy did not let them stay there but searched them out. Praise God for that!

Here's an OT verse that is interesting.

Ps 2:11

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
KJV

It puts fear in perspective in that along with that fear is trembling. We can say reverence, however, reverence must also have with it trembling and that to me, is more than reverence.

Again I agree with 'this' fear and trembling. It is a recognition of our weakness (our flesh is weak)

Brother Mark
Jan 31st 2009, 03:24 PM
Again I agree with 'this' fear and trembling. It is a recognition of our weakness (our flesh is weak)

There is good fear and bad fear throughout scripture. Unfortunately, many today throw out the good kind of fear with the bad.

Friend of I AM
Feb 1st 2009, 06:05 PM
2 Corinthians 7:1 says this: "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Don't you find it interesting that it doesn't say "perfecting holiness in the love of God" ?

I actually looked up the NIV version of that passage..and the word reverence was used as oppossed to fear. That being stated, I don't think Paul was stating that we should be fearful in our approach of God, but rather we should continue to revere God as we always have in our daily walks. Look at these verses.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

So once again, I just believe Paul is asserting that we should continue this reverence of God throughout our earthly walk in which God is leading us to salvation.

Kudo Shinichi
Feb 2nd 2009, 02:13 PM
We should fear and respect about GOD's glory and HIS righteousness yet love him with all our heart, soul and mind. http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=love+GOD+with+all&qs_version=31

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 2nd 2009, 03:09 PM
We should fear and respect about GOD's glory and HIS righteousness yet love him with all our heart, soul and mind. http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=love+GOD+with+all&qs_version=31

I hate to sound like a broken record..but I think I saw this question asked in another thread. When we see him, and become like him(1 John 3:2) will we be full of fear..or full of love...or both?

Friend of I AM
Feb 2nd 2009, 03:56 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record..but I think I saw this question asked in another thread. When we see him, and become like him(1 John 3:2) will we be full of fear..or full of love...or both?

The answer to that would be no. God is Love.(1 John 4:8). This doesn't meant that we shouldn't have a healthy respect for God in this world, particularly since we are in bodies(the flesh) and a world that is mostly in opposition to God. Fearing God..or perhaps the better word would be "revering God" and being in awe of his might in power, from an earthly perspective keeps one from sinning against him. As we grow in our earthly walk, and come to a better knowledge/understanding of our creator..this fear should gradually diminish...as our love becomes perfected in him, and seeing as how there is no fear within him. God bless you in Christian Love. Stephen

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:31 PM
The answer to that would be no. God is Love.(1 John 4:8). This doesn't meant that we shouldn't have a healthy respect for God in this world, particularly since we are in bodies(the flesh) and a world that is mostly in opposition to God. Fearing God..or perhaps the better word would be "revering God" and being in awe of his might in power, from an earthly perspective keeps one from sinning against him. As we grow in our earthly walk, and come to a better knowledge/understanding of our creator..this fear should gradually diminish...as our love becomes perfected in him, and seeing as how there is no fear within him. God bless you in Christian Love. Stephen

Umm..it wasn't an yes or no question. So I guess you mean that we will not be fearing God in his presence, but instead rejoicing in it..with Love..as we will be like him?

Friend of I AM
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:34 PM
Umm..it wasn't an yes or no question. So I guess you mean that we will not be fearing God in his presence, but instead rejoicing in it..with Love..as we will be like him?

To tell you the truth I really don't know what we'll be doing. To answer your original question better..I don't think in the perfected love of God fear exists. That being said we know that God is love, and that we will be like him when perfected..thus we most likely won't possess any fear in us either.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:35 PM
I do not believe you can separate loving and fearing God. If one is to live in a proper relationship with God, both will be present. On the one hand, a person will have a great love for God that will drive their lives; on the other hand, they will have a healthy fear of God. If one or the other is absent, the result is a lop-sided Christian life. Unfortunately, we have far too little of the fear of God in our churches today.

Brother Mark
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:36 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record..but I think I saw this question asked in another thread. When we see him, and become like him(1 John 3:2) will we be full of fear..or full of love...or both?

God is love and as we grow like Him, we grow more in love. However, if we wish to be fully intimate with him, we will also grow in the right kind of fear.


Ps 25:14
14 The secret of the Lord is for those who fear Him,
And He will make them know His covenant.
NASB

God will reveal his secrets to those that fear Him. Reverence is a good word to describe it but it is too shallow. Often when we fear God there is also a trembling that occurs with it. It does mean fright, but it is not where we are terrified of God as a tyrant. But rather, it is a holy fear.

Brother Mark
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:38 PM
I do not believe you can separate loving and fearing God. If one is to live in a proper relationship with God, both will be present. On the one hand, a person will have a great love for God that will drive their lives; on the other hand, they will have a healthy fear of God. If one or the other is absent, the result is a lop-sided Christian life. Unfortunately, we have far too little of the fear of God in our churches today.

Very good! One cannot fear God properly if he does not love Him and understand he is deeply loved by Him.

Friend of I AM
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:42 PM
I do not believe you can separate loving and fearing God. If one is to live in a proper relationship with God, both will be present. On the one hand, a person will have a great love for God that will drive their lives; on the other hand, they will have a healthy fear of God. If one or the other is absent, the result is a lop-sided Christian life. Unfortunately, we have far too little of the fear of God in our churches today.

I've always thought of it the other way around. Mankind really does not have enough "love for one another" nor "love for God." Thus why we have so many problems. Most of the problems I have found that this world has, primarily revolve around fear and lack of understanding. When we fear something, our primary instinct is either attack it, or in someway admonish it so as to exalt ourselves above it..to lessen our fears..or to create fear within that which we fear so we have a sense of empowerment over it.

When we have a greater understanding of something, we are generally more than likely to fear it less. Likewise when we have a greater love for something, we are likely to respect it more.

Friend of I AM
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:52 PM
God is love and as we grow like Him, we grow more in love. However, if we wish to be fully intimate with him, we will also grow in the right kind of fear.


Ps 25:14
14 The secret of the Lord is for those who fear Him,
And He will make them know His covenant.
NASB

God will reveal his secrets to those that fear Him. Reverence is a good word to describe it but it is too shallow. Often when we fear God there is also a trembling that occurs with it. It does mean fright, but it is not where we are terrified of God as a tyrant. But rather, it is a holy fear.

Mark we do not grow in any type of fear when approaching God. There is no fear in perfected love...thus our fear of God should diminish. Perfect love casts out fear. Scripture states this. Here's a saying I've been thinking of a lot lately..I think it was stated by Atilla the Hun..it goes like this.

It is not enough that I succeed, everyone else must fail.

We know that Atilla the Hun was a tyrant. He liked to impose fear upon people, because like most tyrants..he feared that he would lose his power base at some point..and thus thought the only way to continue to get people to support him was to keep them enslaved to fear. Unfortunately like most tyranical dynasties..his eventually came to an end, as people gradually found that within this man..there was more fear in him then there was within themselves. The same can be said of many other tyrants throughout human history(Hitler, Stalin, etc) When we have a greater understanding of ourselves, and those around us..we should have less fears of them...particularly if we inherently know that an individual is working for our good.as God is.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:53 PM
I've always thought of it the other way around. Mankind really does not have enough "love for one another" nor "love for God." Thus why we have so many problems. Most of the problems I have found that this world has, primarily revolve around fear and lack of understanding. When we fear something, our primary instinct is either attack it, or in someway admonish it so as to exalt ourselves above it..to lessen our fears..or to create fear within that which we fear so we have a sense of empowerment over it.

When we have a greater understanding of something, we are generally more than likely to fear it less. Likewise when we have a greater love for something, we are likely to respect it more.
The Bible speaks so much of the fear of God and both the need to fear Him and the blessings of fearing Him that I think it is safe to say that one has not yet truly come to know God as he should until he has a healthy fear of God. Fear is fear - phobos in the Greek. One can argue till they're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the meaning of the Greek. You might say that it doesn't fit with your view of God, that it doesn't fit the way you feel, but the Bible says what it says - we are to love and fear God.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:57 PM
Mark we do not grow in any type of fear when approaching God. There is no fear in perfected love...thus our fear of God should diminish. Perfect love casts out fear. Scripture states this. Here's a saying I've been thinking of a lot lately..I think it was stated by Atilla the Hun..it goes like this.

It is not enough that I succeed, everyone else must fail.

We know that Atilla the Hun was a tyrant. He liked to impose fear upon people, because like most tyrants..he feared that he would lose his power base at some point..and thus thought the only way to continue to get people to support him was to keep them enslaved to fear. Unfortunately like most tyranical dynasties..his eventually came to an end, as people gradually found that within this man..there was more fear in him then there was within themselves. The same can be said of many other tyrants throughout human history(Hitler, Stalin, etc) When we have a greater understanding of ourselves, and those around us..we should have less fears of them...particularly if we inherently know that an individual is working for our good.as God is.
Friend of I AM, to compare fear or terror with Attila the Hun or other tyrants and consequently dismiss the need for the fear of God in our lives doesn't do justice to the Scriptures. The fear of God is so prevalent in both the Old and New Testament that one must come to terms with it - not dismiss it because it might not fit our view of a loving God.

Friend of I AM
Feb 2nd 2009, 04:57 PM
The Bible speaks so much of the fear of God and both the need to fear Him and the blessings of fearing Him that I think it is safe to say that one has not yet truly come to know God as he should until he has a healthy fear of God. Fear is fear - phobos in the Greek. One can argue till they're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the meaning of the Greek. You might say that it doesn't fit with your view of God, that it doesn't fit the way you feel, but the Bible says what it says - we are to love and fear God.

One can argue until they are blue in the face if they only pay attention to the scriptures they want, in order to prove their points. God is Love, and perfect Love casts out fear. These lessons too are referenced throughout the scriptures. Love God, and Love one another are the two most important commands given in the old and new testament..even above fearing God. Thus although fear has it's place within our earthly walks..it should gradually diminish as we walk in the spirit of Love which unites all believers. If we look at the bible as a whole, it is a book the primarily brings one to love and understanding of their creator..as well as others.

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:00 PM
One can argue until they are blue in the face if they only pay attention to the scriptures they want, in order to prove their points. God is Love, and perfect Love casts out fear. These lessons too are referenced throughout the scriptures. Love God, and Love one another are the two most important commands given in the old and new testament..even above fearing God. Thus although fear has it's place within our earthly walks..it should gradually diminish as we walk in the spirit of Love which unites all believers. If we look at the bible as a whole, it is a book the primarily brings one to love and understanding of their creator..as well as others.
I understand that this is your line of reasoning, but what do you then do with all the Scriptures that directly address the need to fear God and the blessings of doing so?

Brother Mark
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:01 PM
One can argue until they are blue in the face if they only pay attention to the scriptures they want, in order to prove their points. God is Love, and perfect Love casts out fear. These lessons too are referenced throughout the scriptures. Love God, and Love one another are the two most important commands given in the old and new testament..even above fearing God. Thus although fear has it's place within our earthly walks..it should gradually diminish as we walk in the spirit of Love which unites all believers. If we look at the bible as a whole, it is a book the primarily brings one to love and understanding of their creator..as well as others.

Stephen, both Paul and Abraham exhibited more fear of God as they matured not less. Though they didn't exhibit terror of a tyrant, but rather a holy fear of God as Father. He reveals his secrets to those that fear Him. Love is the foremost command and one cannot fear God properly unless love has done it's work too.

Friend of I AM
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:08 PM
Stephen, both Paul and Abraham exhibited more fear of God as they matured not less. Though they didn't exhibit terror of a tyrant, but rather a holy fear of God as Father. He reveals his secrets to those that fear Him. Love is the foremost command and one cannot fear God properly unless love has done it's work too.

Paul stated that we should walk in accordance with the spirit so that we could present ourselves boldly before the throne of grace. No man who progressively walked and followed God would make such a statement. He also expressed to Timothy that one should remember that God's spirit is one of "boldness and power" not fear. Regardless of what testimonies you have Mark, ultimately..scriptures inherently point to our fears diminishing as we grow closer in our Christ walk and become dead to ourselves, and full of his spirit..completely walking in it within our daily lives. Grace.

Friend of I AM
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:12 PM
I understand that this is your line of reasoning, but what do you then do with all the Scriptures that directly address the need to fear God and the blessings of doing so?

You adress it by gaining the understanding of how it works in accord with other scriptures..specifically those pertaining to loving God and loving others to being the greatest commands. That being said, I will definitely bow out of this discussion for now, as it seems to be becoming an inherently circular one. Thank you and Brother Mark for your testimonies. Feel free to add anything you wish to clarify regarding any responses I've made to your testimonies. God bless in Christian Love. Stephen

Pilgrimtozion
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:20 PM
Acts 5:11 says that great fear came over the entire church after the Ananias and Sapphira episode.
Acts 9:31 says the following: "So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase." The church continued to increase as they were going on in the fear of the Lord!
Romans 11:21-22 says this: "Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." He's speaking to saved, grafted in believers and telling them to fear!
Revelation 19:5 says something fascinating: "And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."" This is in heaven, where a voice from the throne tells those who fear God to praise Him! Notice that even in heaven, it does not say 'those who love Him'.

How can you circumvent these Scriptures and still claim that the fear of God is not necessary in every believer's life?

Just_Another_Guy
Feb 2nd 2009, 05:48 PM
Acts 5:11 says that great fear came over the entire church after the Ananias and Sapphira episode.
Acts 9:31 says the following: "So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase." The church continued to increase as they were going on in the fear of the Lord!
Romans 11:21-22 says this: "Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." He's speaking to saved, grafted in believers and telling them to fear!
Revelation 19:5 says something fascinating: "And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."" This is in heaven, where a voice from the throne tells those who fear God to praise Him! Notice that even in heaven, it does not say 'those who love Him'.

How can you circumvent these Scriptures and still claim that the fear of God is not necessary in every believer's life?

Paul adresses all of what you just posted in Galations 4, particularly your comment proceeding Revelation 19:5. Here's a link to this chapter...

Galations 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%204&version=9;)

When walking in the spirit..we are no longer bond-servants to a spirit fear, but heirs to the kingdom and spirit of Love. God bless in Christian Love.

keck553
Feb 2nd 2009, 06:34 PM
Paul adresses all of what you just posted in Galations 4, particularly your comment proceeding Revelation 19:5. Here's a link to this chapter...

Galations 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%204&version=9;)

When walking in the spirit..we are no longer bond-servants to a spirit fear, but heirs to the kingdom and spirit of Love. God bless in Christian Love.

Well then I guess according to how people that interpret Paul to fit their own doctrine, Revelation is 'done away with' too.

(Rev 19:5) A voice went out from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, small and great!"

wheatbread
Mar 7th 2009, 03:37 PM
i still need a definition of what posters are saying "fear" is exactly - fear of retribution or punishment?

When I was a child and even as a teen, I feared making my mother sad by my behavior but I didn't fear what she would "do" to me because I KNEW she would never do anything to me that didn't involve her love and my ultimate good.

I need help with what you all think Fear is, exactly.

Hi V,
I did read through the first 6 pages of the thread so perhaps my thoughts have come out already, thought I would share them just in case.

The verses keck posted crossed a line for me and I think I see what Mark has been getting at.
When Adam was found in the garden naked and hid, I think he felt guilt and shame. He probably felt the same thing when he ate from the tree and so did have some experience of and as most of do, did not like the experience.

The midwives let the boys live as they knew it was God's way and the right thing to do and they feared the guilt and shame of their own emotions more than the king of Egypt.
Fear of disobedience in a sense that it is God's will that controls all but our choice whether we bring retribution of shame and guilt on ourselves for choosing not to follow His path.

Maybe I am not echoing others thoughts but this is I get from it, now anyway :pray:

Thanks all, I enjoyed the read.

godscallministries
Mar 7th 2009, 03:47 PM
I am sure that this has been said, but I did not look at all the replies.

Fear as used in the Bible often refers to awe, not some panic. We are to respect God and fear Him...be in awe of Him

On another note, we should fear God. God is HOLY. God is not a man, nor is HE limited. If our righteousness is as filthy rags, imagine how displeasing our sin is. God's standards are toooooo high for man to ever comprehend, much less reach.

This is why His love covers our sins in the form of Jesus's substitutionary death. This is why we should recirocate love to God...He is so awesome and so Holy, yet he spanned the gap and reached down to us.

Another image is this: as a child, did you fear your dad (please think of a stable family environment). I feared dad, but my love for him, and his obvious love for me opened communication and relationship. If I did wrong, I did fear discipline...but if I was obedient, I had no fear..respect, love, yes...but not fear of pain or discipline. Of course, we can also fear more than pain, we can fear hurting those we love, we can fear the damage that our actions can do to relationships.

Fear is often not cut and dried as a child of God. We are to have reverant fear of our Holy God. We are to obey our Abba, in love, we have no fear other than revence and awe.

Vhayes
Mar 7th 2009, 04:50 PM
Hi V,
I did read through the first 6 pages of the thread so perhaps my thoughts have come out already, thought I would share them just in case.

The verses keck posted crossed a line for me and I think I see what Mark has been getting at.
When Adam was found in the garden naked and hid, I think he felt guilt and shame. He probably felt the same thing when he ate from the tree and so did have some experience of and as most of do, did not like the experience.

The midwives let the boys live as they knew it was God's way and the right thing to do and they feared the guilt and shame of their own emotions more than the king of Egypt.
Fear of disobedience in a sense that it is God's will that controls all but our choice whether we bring retribution of shame and guilt on ourselves for choosing not to follow His path.

Maybe I am not echoing others thoughts but this is I get from it, now anyway :pray:

Thanks all, I enjoyed the read.
Thanks, Wheatbread for responding to this and trying to help me see more clearly. I appreciate it.

While I know God is Holy and I will never be and I stand in awe of Him, I cannot "fear" Him, as in being afraid of Him. What have I to fear? I respect Him and His might. I tremble at His power. I am often in awe of both Him and His works. I bow to Him in obedience and service. But I cannot stand in fear of Him. He loves me. He loves me enough that Jesus died for me. Why would He harm me? Correct me, yes - but that is not a fear-filled thing - it is a thing of love because He wants me to grow into the person He wants me to be. There should be no fear when we realize it is our ultimate good that is the final goal.

V

Friend of I AM
Mar 7th 2009, 05:48 PM
I am sure that this has been said, but I did not look at all the replies.

Fear as used in the Bible often refers to awe, not some panic. We are to respect God and fear Him...be in awe of Him


Being in awe of God is something that I think is extremely important in this earthly walk. I think its difficult to ascertain how one can still be in a constant state of awe and have any type of fear when not present within this earthly walk..as after we have seen God, if we truly possess his characteristics...we would have an heir of humility about ourselves like him..as God is not full of himself. I imagine in true friendship, there is no fear...as there would be nothing to fear from one who is not trying to hurt you.



On another note, we should fear God. God is HOLY.


Agreed. In this earthly walk, fearing God is very important. It keeps us from sinning. It does nothing really beneficial for God though, its more of a command that helps us to stay on the right track. Remember sin only effects men and God's other creations. This is what Elihu mentioned to Job during his trials, and that's why God tells us to fear him when walking this walk on this earth. If you believe that God at some point will no longer tolerate sin and all sin will be removed, then one should also believe that any fears that come along with it at some point will be removed as well.



God is not a man, nor is HE limited. If our righteousness is as filthy rags, imagine how displeasing our sin is. God's standards are toooooo high for man to ever comprehend, much less reach.


I don't think God inherently is looking at us with an unpleasant view at all times. God is loving, he isn't full of pride..pretentious..and always trying to find faults in his creations. Thus which leads me to what you've posted in the next quote..



This is why His love covers our sins in the form of Jesus's substitutionary death. This is why we should recirocate love to God...He is so awesome and so Holy, yet he spanned the gap and reached down to us.


Now this is where I agree with you. God's Love does indeed cover up a multitude of sins..which is why you don't think we see God trying to figure out ways to condemn men.

A820djd
Mar 7th 2009, 10:36 PM
People say is it better to be feared or respected? I ask, is it a little too much to ask for both? - Tony Stark

So maybe respect and fear can borderline mean the same. Respect or sense the fear of disrespecting.